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Author Topic: Letter to PommesBleu about R-U152  (Read 4621 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: November 13, 2011, 07:29:46 AM »

PommesBleu asks me:
«The other members of U152 who are DYS492=12 are saying that they are closer to the modal which makes them older then DYS492=14?
Where can I find more of your information on this?
I think maybe when we migrated out of Africa we went through Greece then to Italy while they went East up and around...”

My information are in the thousands of letters I wrote, in the forums that banned me, in the forums that deleted my postings.
David Faux, who was (and is) a good person, theorized that U152 was Celt, and that when it was found in Italy they were Celts. I said that it was found in places that never had Celt settlements. After we discovered that Italy (Central-North Italy) gets the highest percentage of R-U152 all over the world and its distribution demonstrates that its presence is very ancient, long before the settlements of historic peoples. Some malevolent said “Switzerland” or “Alpine Region” for not saying Italy.
Unfortunately in the R-U152 Project we are represented by Richard Rocca, who is an Italian American who feels more a Sicilian than an Italian. When my wife (a Sicilian) entered the Sicilian Project with her K1c1*, I was asked for a certificate of pure Sicilian race. Many hate Romans, but all have learned their motto “Divide et impera”. We Italians have been divided and many Italians-something have take seriously this quip, because, when Dienekes makes his autosomal-something, we Italians are here, in Italy and not elsewhere.
All the theories they have had in these years are wrecked: the Mutation Rate, the knowledge of cultivated persons like Nordtvedt, Klyosov etc. Now the same Klyosov, who has written a lot about this (an impressive waste of time), is updating his theories, but if you read attentively them, they are above all my “mutations around the modal”, my “convergence to the modal as time passes”, etc. What does it mean his discriminating the haplotypes and to say that the most part of the ancient ones fell extinct?
But theories are theories and our preferences are all subjective. Also that mankind has the same origin. You can see how it is false, when everybody has his particularities: Celts, Greeks, Phoenicians, Jews, Indians, Chinese etc, and why not Italians? I love more cats than the most part of humankind, and love my cats, not all the cats, not the cat that eats the food I leave for my cats when I go to work. About the origin… we all have many different supplies, now also many different hominids: Neanderthals Denisovans and who knows how many others not yet discovered.
But theories are theories and our preferences are all subjective. How is it worth what someone said to you? I imagine they are Rocca, Fehér, certainly some French. How is it worth? Nothing. They are a fruit of all what I have said before, and not of science, that science which should consider only the reason.
The 1000 Genomes Project, whose transcription is due to the same Rocca (and Magoon), has demonstrated that 3 out 4 R-U152* have been found in Tuscans (then Italians) and that the subclades of Z56, which carry to the same Jewish R-L4, are found above all in Tuscans (and Spaniards or Latino-Americans: and don’t forget the theory that Iberia was peopled about 7500 years ago by seafarers Agriculturalists from Italy, and now there is also the “Tuderella sulcata” to demonstrate this). These R-U152 with DYS492=14 have more variance than the DYS492=12 and it is ridiculous to say that they are more ancient because they are closer to the modal. The haven’t yet understood that the “modal” doesn’t exist, and they haven’t yet understood that mutations happen around a value which becomes the modal of an haplotype and that haplotypes vary and mostly fell extinct and the ancientness of a haplotype may be seen only in the mutations for the tangent and DYS492=14 is this, like the DYS385=11-17, 11-18, 11-19 (and Corsi is a Spaniard, but clearly of Italian origin), like DYS455 and DYS454 =10-11, 11-10, but an Italian is 10-10, like DYS461=13, and there are Italians with 14 etc.
Be sure, PommesBleu (but why this bad nickname, I understand you are living in Canada, but you weren’t obliged)! Their theories are due only to their prejudices, to their preferences (legitimate, but we may get ours) and at all to science.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 09:12:23 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Diana
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« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2011, 02:02:30 PM »

I tested positive for Z144, the same as the Tuscans.....

  I was born in Montreal Canada and one of the last to be baptized in Notre Dame Cathedral.  I took the nickname 6 years ago when my youngest daughter was born on January 17 at 11:45 sharp the same date that a phenomenon used to occur at Rennes le Chateau in France at noon...

 What I said about Greece sounds silly now...

  Who is Magoon?

  Try not to be so hard on Rocca...he is good, you should work together on your theories even though we "no speak Americano" just kidding lol, it's a song!!

  Thank you for your input.  I understand now that there have been problems and am sorry for that because I feel that you have a lot to contribute.

  I don't understand what you are saying about the Tuscans and Jewish ancestry.  We are not Jewish.....???

  D
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 02:16:30 PM by PommesBleu » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2011, 02:23:09 PM »

PommesBleu asks Who is Magoon?

I don't know him, but I know he collaborated with Rich Rocca in the fundamental paper about the R-U152 in the 1000 Genomes Project, from where have derived all our theories, and also your Z144.

Recently I have had a pleasant exchange of letters with Rich Rocca, who probably is very open to the Italian Refugium or at least to the importance of Italy re. R-U152 and others.
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Maliclavelli


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Diana
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2011, 10:33:56 AM »



  You can call me Diana :-)
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2011, 11:16:05 AM »

I don't understand what you are saying about the Tuscans and Jewish ancestry.  We are not Jewish.....???
This was one of the themes which gained two banishments to me, because I said that many Jewish haplogroups aren't of Middle Eastern origin, but Western European, mostly Italian. I have supported this for many reasons, one of the most important was that my R1b1a2a/L23+ matches closely many Jewish haplotypes, and the solution was either I am a Jew or Jews are Italians. And whereas I was ready to accept to be a Jew in my ancient origin, probably Jews weren't ready to think the same, i.e. to be perhaps of Italian ancestry.
But now we are understanding better the problem: Silver, who was close to me by his haplotype, has now come out R-L584+, then probably linked to Armenians and very far from me (Jews may think Armenians like descendants of Jews deported, the famous ten tribes lost).
Another Jewish haplotype is that R-L4 with DYS492=14, which now I link to the most ancient "Tuscans" like you, this  by the results of 1000 Genomes Project. But these Jews have some mutations which presuppose a far separation and we have to be open to every solution, also that R-U152 may have been present in Middle East from very ancient times. Someone is thinking that it could have come from there, if probably the most ancient R-U152 documented (probably a DYS492=14) is that of Tutankhamon. He is very close to my friend Malvolti, I tested at SMGF, and I presupopose to be R-U152/DYS492=14.
As you can see, if we investigate in freedom and honesty of thinking, every solution is open, and it shall be that of science and proofs.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 02:12:21 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2011, 01:34:04 PM »

PommesBleu asks Who is Magoon?
GregRM. He is another hobbyist and has been working closely with the anonymous researcher to identify, document and communication new SNPs in human genome projects....  I think he is actually U106... well for sure he has one lineage there.
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Diana
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2011, 07:41:07 PM »


  Thank you Mike!  He must be on DNAforums.  Maybe he is already on my friend list?

  So what does the 1000 genomes project tell us about the Tuscany people?  Would these be the first traces of U152 in Italy if so then I am really confused about the difference between the DYS492=12 and 14 people.  I guess this is all pretty new though and more samples are needed...???

  Do you have 2 accounts on DNAforums?  Mike whalen and MikeWWW?  I took one of them off...  I know I was on one of your projects before I had deepclade done but then afterwards realized I didn't belong there... Anyways if not then please re add me as a friend on forums...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 08:11:47 PM by PommesBleu » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.
Diana
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2011, 07:52:40 PM »

  Oh my!!  Well It is very interesting regarding King tut, funny that S28 is also high in Ireland where Scota a Pharaoh's daughter went when she was exiled, "Edward J. Cowan has traced the first appearance of Scota in literature to the 12th century.[1] Scota appears in the Irish Book of Leinster (containing a redaction of the Lebor Gabála Érenn).[2] However a recension found in a 11th century manuscript of the Historia Brittonum contains an earlier reference to Scota.[3] The 12th century sources state that Scota was the daughter of an egyptian pharaoh, a contemporary of Moses, who married Geytholos (Goídel Glas) and became the eponymous founders of the Scots and Gaels after being exiled from Egypt.[4] The earliest Scottish sources claim Geytholos was "a certain king of the countries of Greece, Neolus, or Heolaus, by name", while the Lebor Gabála Érenn Leinster redaction in contrast describes him as a scythian. Other manuscripts of the Lebor Gabála Érenn contain a variant legend of Scota's husband, not as Goídel Glas but instead Mil Espaine and connect him to ancient Iberia.[5][6][7] Although these legends vary, they all agree that Scota was the eponymous founder of the Scots and that she also gave her name to Scotland."

  I want to know more about the tribes....

  What about Z144??  think the Jewish people from the U152 project have tested for this but Rich thinks it may have been a non paternal event...?  Judging by the way many Italian men are I wouldn't doubt it LOL!!  Speaking of my father and grandfather in general, they loved the ladies, hahahaha!

I don't understand what you are saying about the Tuscans and Jewish ancestry.  We are not Jewish.....???
This was one of the themes which gained two banishments to me, because I said that many Jewish haplogroups aren't of Middle Eastern origin, but Western European, mostly Italian. I have supported this for many reasons, one of the most important was that my R1b1a2a/L23+ matches closely many Jewish haplotypes, and the solution was either I am a Jew or Jews are Italians. And whereas I was ready to accept to be a Jew in my ancient origin, probably Jews weren't ready to think the same, i.e. to be perhaps of Italian ancestry.
But now we are understanding better the problem: Silver, who was close to me by his haplotype, has now come out R-L584+, then probably linked to Armenians and very far from me (Jews may think Armenians like descendants of Jews deported, the famous ten tribes lost).
Another Jewish haplotype is that R-L4 with DYS492=14, which now I link to the most ancient "Tuscans" like you, this  by the results of 1000 Genomes Project. But these Jews have some mutations which presuppose a far separation and we have to be open to every solution, also that R-U152 may have been present in Middle East from very ancient times. Someone is thinking that it could have come from there, if probably the most ancient R-U152 documented (probably a DYS492=14) is that of Tutankhamon. He is very close to my friend Malvolti, I tested at SMGF, and I presupopose to be R-U152/DYS492=14.
As you can see, if we investigate in freedom and honesty of thinking, every solution is open, and it shall be that of science and proofs.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 04:55:18 PM by Diana » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2011, 09:24:36 PM »

.... So what does the 1000 genomes project tell us about the Tuscany people?
RRocca is all over that. I'd check with him but I doubt if you are lucky enough to have someone tested in the project who is from Tuscany and of your haplogroup...
Come to think about it, I've been very lucky.  There were two L513+ people in the 1K HG project and one of them is L705.2+ so he was probably no more further related to me than a 1000 years.
I guess it is the luck of the Irish.

. ...Do you have 2 accounts on DNAforums?  Mike whalen...
No, I have no other secret or backdoor identities.  I'm just me.

Whalen, poor guy, he gets blamed on my account every now and then.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 12:51:18 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Diana
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2011, 10:47:09 PM »

Yes you are very lucky!
I thought there were 3 people from Tuscany whom tested positive for Z144?
  Aww, poor Mike whalen LOL!  :-)
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R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2011, 01:28:29 AM »

PommesBleu (Diana) says: “What about Z144??  I don't think the Jewish people from the U152 project have tested for this but Rich thinks it may have been a non paternal event...?”

Rich is certainly more lucky than me. I, for having said the same, gained two banishment, and he is a guru at “dna-forums”. But victory will be mine.

NOMINI MEO ADSCRIBATUR VICTORIA
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 01:38:34 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2011, 01:35:57 AM »

Diana, go slowly with Scota, the Irish Book of Leinster, Moses (to whom someone subtracted the first part of the name) etc.
You could begin reading Matai ve-ech humza ha-‘am ha-Yehudi (The Invention of the Jewish People) I reviewed on Amazon.com.
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Maliclavelli


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Diana
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2011, 11:44:11 AM »

  Thanks for the advice!

  Maybe since it has been a few years they will allow you back to DNA forums?

  You should try...
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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2011, 01:03:21 PM »

 Maybe since it has been a few years they will allow you back to DNA forums?
You should try...
I am not interested. Who is dead is dead.
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Maliclavelli


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Diana
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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2011, 12:43:03 AM »



  Va bene.... :-(
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2011, 03:17:00 PM »



  Update,

  I am now confirmed Z145 and still waiting on Z146...
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2011, 04:45:29 PM »

Of course you are glad to find a match, but by a genetic point of view it would be even more interesting that you (your brother) were negative for some of these SNPs, because this would demonstrate a more ancientness of this subclade in Central Italy. Anyway your results are very interesting and confirm that R-Z56 was born there. I am yet hoping that all this haplogroup was born there, and not it alone.
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Maliclavelli


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Diana
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2011, 05:47:00 PM »

Per me non è importante essere il più antico. E 'già abbastanza antica e io sono contenta conoscere la nostra vera origine. Il nostro sangue è sempre stata profondamente radicata in Italia.

  :-)  Diana
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 07:44:53 PM by Diana » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2011, 06:34:24 PM »

Be aware when you write in Italian. Italian isn’t English: it has the gender. If you write “io sono contento” you are a male. A female should write: “io sono contenta”.
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Maliclavelli


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Diana
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2011, 07:44:12 PM »

yeah, I caught that afterwards! Thought you would understand... Sorry for not using spellcheck! :-)  I can assure you, I am every bit WOMAN!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 07:51:48 PM by Diana » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.
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