World Families Forums - non-R1b1b2 y-DNA in the isles - what are the traces of pre-R1b1b2 times

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Author Topic: non-R1b1b2 y-DNA in the isles - what are the traces of pre-R1b1b2 times  (Read 1051 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« on: August 07, 2010, 05:52:34 AM »

I suspect that it must be almost entirely I clades but I really do not know enough.  I understand that there are some early (way before historic times) I clades in the isles but do not know much about them, what variance dates have been suggested etc.  I notice that there seemed to be a bit of I in SW Ireland.  I suppose for me the big question (if it is older than R1b1b2) then is it a remnant of early Neolithic farmers or is it a remnant of hunter gatherers.  Problem I have with the latter idea is that that would leave the highest impact period in the archaeological record in the isles with no descendants.  The other question is what variety of I are there and what are the nearest parts of the continent with similar I clades which could have been brought in either the Neolithic or Mesolithic periods.  I am guessing France but I do not know.  Much though I am interested in R1b1b2, focussing on it does overlook studies which show that in the north and east of Ireland a substantial minority (20-30% I think) of the people with native Irish Gaelic surnames are not R1b1b2 and most fall into the old I clades groups (apparently).  These people may well be the real survivors of the most ancient Irish, not us R1b1b2 blow ins.  In fact if the dates suggested are correct, Ireland had been settled for 5500 years before R1b1b2 showed up at the end of the Neolithic.  I would like to know more about these Irish I people.  Their genes could be the best chance to clear up still debated questions of the origins of the earliest Irish waves of settlement.  The same of course applies to Britain.  If R1b1b2 dates only from the beaker period there too then this probably again only leaves the old I clades.  I remember that even before the various SNPs and larger amounts of STRs were bring tested, Sykes twigged that there was some ancient form of I spread throughout Britain.
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2010, 05:50:57 PM »

Here's the blurb on I2-M438 from the ISOGG I Tree page:

I2-M438 et al includes I2* which shows some membership from Armenia, Georgia and Turkey; I2a-P37.2, which is the most common form in the Balkans and Sardinia. I2a1-M26 is especially prevalent in Sardinia. I2b-M436 et al reaches its highest frequency along the northwest coast of continental Europe. I2b1-M223 et al occurs in Britain and northwest continental Europe. I2b1a-M284 occurs almost exclusively in Britain, so it apparently originated there and has probably been present for thousands of years.

I put the more relevant stuff in bold and underlined it.

Do you really think the non-R1b1b2 element in the north and east of Ireland is as high as 20-30%? I figured more like 10-20%, but I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 05:52:03 PM by rms2 » Logged

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