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Author Topic: How can my Haplogroup change? R1a to R1  (Read 10817 times)
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« on: January 26, 2010, 02:43:12 AM »

I am a novice with all this.

My DNA was tested by the Genographic Project. Originally it was "Haplogroup: R1a (SRY 10831.2)." The last marker was M17 and the location was in Kazakhstan near the Aral Sea. The last time estimate was around 10,000 years ago.

Today I logged back and it has changed to "Haplogroup  R1, M173 (Subclade R1a, SRY10831.2)" The line ends somewhere in Russia 30,000 years ago.

I know that they are constantly adding to their database, but how can I lose 20,000 years of my "ancestry"? :)

My recent ancestry is entirely Indian so I was hoping to find a location for the journey closer to modern India.
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 03:01:00 PM »

Have you tried hitting the refresh button on your computer? Maybe it was a temporary glitch.

Do you have a Ysearch entry?

What is your haplotype (your STR markers)?

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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2010, 02:28:46 AM »

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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 08:32:19 AM »

...Originally it was "Haplogroup: R1a (SRY 10831.2)."...M17 and the location was in Kazakhstan near the Aral Sea. The last time estimate was around 10,000 years ago.

Today...  it has changed to "Haplogroup  R1, M173 (Subclade R1a, SRY10831.2)" The line ends somewhere in Russia 30,000 years ago.

My recent ancestry is entirely Indian so I was hoping to find a location for the journey closer to modern India.

Dear colleague,

Your Indian R1/R1a1 has a deep, ancient history. I do not know who had estimated your R1a as 10,000 years "old" and on what basis, and why its location is necessarily in Kazakstan.

I suggest you to disregard it for the time being unless some DATA are presented by those who said it.

In fact, nobody has change your haplogroup. It was determined as R1a, it stays as R1a. The second notice is identical to the first one, except R1 was added for your convenience. They could have added R as well as P as upstream haplogroups, it would not have changed a thing. Well, maybe M17 should be clarified, is it there or not.

Back to India and R1a. There are two principal lines of R1a in India. One line is a really ancient one. It has appeared apparently in South Siberia 21000+/-3000 years before present, and nowadays its haplotypes spread as a rather wide band from South Siberia (Altai)-Northern China (up to the North Korean border on the East) through India-Pakistan and South Central Asia (Uygurs and their neighbors) to as far to the South West as Oman and Egypt, with a gradient (of their common ancestors) down from 21000 years before present in North China (up to 25% population there is R1a/R1a1) via Pakistan (12400 ybp) and India (8000 ybp) to South Central Asia (6900 ybp) and to South Arabia and Egypt (6000-4500 ybp).  They are "non-IndoEuropean" R1a1. A good part of that population speaks Altaian-Turk group of languages, reflecting their historical path from South Siberia-Altai.  

Another, "Indo-European" R1a1, linguistically speaking, has different haplotypes. They are easily recognizable and distinct from the "non-IE" R1a1 haplotypes. They have a common ancestor in Europe around 11000 years bp and by all means traveled all the way from South Siberia, bringing their "Europeoid" anthropology. Funny, but Europeoids-Caucasoids appeared in fact in South Siberia, came to Europe, and were named "Europeoids" since they settled in Europe many thousand years back, first, apparently, on the Balkans. They brought (or worked out) Indo-European language. Those R1a1 were proto-Aryans, since eventually it was them who brought IE language and their R1a1 haplotypes to India around 3500 years ago (see below).  

These R1a1 had populated Europe from the Balkans to the Isles, and from Scandinavia to Greece, and around 6000-5000 years ago spread to the East, to the Russian Plain (aka East-European Plain).  A common ancestor of ethnic Russians-Ukrainians-Belorussians of R1a1 haplogroup lived on the Rusian Plain 4800 years ago, and if to add to said populations also Poland, Germany, Scandinavia, and ALL other European R1a1 populations (altogether 14 R1a1 principal branches, including two branches of M458 subclade), a common ancestor would be of 5100 years ago. Besides, there are two-to-three small branches with a common ancestor of 11000 years ago (their descendants have DYS392=13 or 14).

Between 5000 and 4000 ybp R1a1 from the Russian Plain moved to the East, established Andronovo archaelogical culture (North Kazakhstan, South Ural and more to the East), built settlements such as Arkaim in South Ural (3800-3600 ybp) and many others in the area, established "Avesta culture" in the South of Central Asia (~4000-3500 ybp), expanded to the Caucasus by 4500 ybp, spread over the Caucasus to Anatolia by 3600 ybp and confused linguists that much that the latter believe that "Indo-Europeans" appeared in Asia Minor - Anatolia along with their language. However, it was just a dead-end for R1a1 there. Or cul-de-sac, if you prefer it that way.

Finally (in this context) R1a1 went from South Ural to India as the Aryans, and from South Cental Asia (Avesta Aryans) to Iran by about 3500 years ago in the both directions. As a result, R1a1 haplotypes in India, Iran, and in Russia are practically identical to each other (there are some branches in Russia which are more inclined to the West, to Poland, for instance). Personally I belong to the Russian branch whose haplotypes are identical with the Indian "IE"-haplotypes up to 67 markers long. On a 67 marker R1a1 haplotype tree I sit on the same branch along with a bunch of Indians.

This is a story of R1a1 in a rather brief format. Last year I have published (along with a colleague of mine, Igor Rozhanskii) a detailed study of R1a1 of more than a hundred pages long, with dozends of graphs and haplotype trees. Of course, this story can and should be updated, modified, corrected, however, based on DATA, not on "opinions".

If you want me to take a look at your haplotype and suggest where you "belong", send it to my e-mail listed in

That long paper on R1a1 (along with many papers on DNA genealogy) is there too, however, it is in Russian.


Anatole Klyosov                    
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 05:03:34 PM by aklyosov » Logged


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