New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project

[rms2]

I created a new category today for the Y-DNA Results page of the R-P312 and Subclades Project. It's for guys who are L165+ (S68+). Thus far, there are only two guys in it: Hammer, whose ancestry is Swedish, and McLeod, whose ancestry is Scottish.

If you are L165+ and a member of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, please let me know so I can move you to the new category.

I understand this clade is starting to take off a bit after a slow start. I heard there are at least 15 guys thus far who are L165+ (but I don't know who most of them are).

[rms2]

I've been able to find out who at least three more of the L165+ guys are:

1. Greenwade, Ysearch 2H2Z7 (Unknown)

2. Haag, Ysearch 9X34Y (Germany)

3. McGirt, Ysearch HJPZE (Unknown)

I remember there was a Beal or Beall or something like that who was L165+, but there are a bunch of Beals in Ysearch. I'm not going to hunt through all of them to try to find the right one.

[rms2]

So here's the list of the five L165+ guys I know about, in case you want to check them out in Ysearch:

1. Greenwade, Ysearch 2H2Z7 (Unknown)

2. Haag, Ysearch 9X34Y (Germany)

3. Hammer, Ysearch SSHT9 (Sweden)

4. McGirt, Ysearch HJPZE (Unknown)

5. McLeod, Ysearch B8CW7 (Scotland)

I would like to know who the others are.

[rms2]

So here's the list of the five L165+ guys I know about, in case you want to check them out in Ysearch:

1. Greenwade, Ysearch 2H2Z7 (Unknown)

2. Haag, Ysearch 9X34Y (Germany)

3. Hammer, Ysearch SSHT9 (Sweden)

4. McGirt, Ysearch HJPZE (Unknown)

5. McLeod, Ysearch B8CW7 (Scotland)

I would like to know who the others are.

Four of the five have 390=25, and all of them have 464a=14.

Anyone notice anything else?

[rms2]

Here's an updated list, because I found the right Beall.

1. Beall, Ysearch SXVA3 (Scotland)

2. Greenwade, Ysearch 2H2Z7 (Unknown)

3. Haag, Ysearch 9X34Y (Germany)

4. Hammer, Ysearch SSHT9 (Sweden)

5. McGirt, Ysearch HJPZE (Unknown)

6. McLeod, Ysearch B8CW7 (Scotland)

Interestingly, Beall also has 390=25 and 464a=14. That makes five out of six with 390=25 and six out of six with 464a=14.

[GoldenHind]

Is it absolutely clear that L165(S68) is within P312?

[vineviz]

Is it absolutely clear that L165(S68) is within P312?

Yes.

[vtilroe]

It is worth noting that both McLeod and Hammer have now been found positive for L176.2 a.k.a. S179, leading to the very interesting possibility that L165/S68 is a brother clade to R-M167/SRY2627, a haplogroup which also appears to be derived for L176.2/S179.

Some of the other R-L165 guys should also test for L176.2 to confirm.

[rms2]

It is worth noting that both McLeod and Hammer have now been found positive for L176.2 a.k.a. S179, leading to the very interesting possibility that L165/S68 is a brother clade to R-M167/SRY2627, a haplogroup which also appears to be derived for L176.2/S179.

Some of the other R-L165 guys should also test for L176.2 to confirm.

A couple of days ago a new L165+ guy joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project: Ayton, Ysearch B26GG. His ancestor came from North Yorkshire, so perhaps the Scandinavian association is holding up.

Here's the big news: Ayton is also L176.2+.

So it looks like SRY2627 and L165 are on the same L176.2+ branch of P312, as Vince T. speculated they might be.

Will wonders never cease?

[GoldenHind]

Are you keeping track of those who are L176.2*? I know there are at least a few.

[rms2]

Are you keeping track of those who are L176.2*? I know there are at least a few.

Honestly, I haven't been.

I may have to send out a  bulk email on that. I don't want to go through all those Haplotree pages in order to find out. It would be like hunting for a few needles in a very big haystack.

[Mike Walsh]

Are you keeping track of those who are L176.2*? I know there are at least a few.

Goldenhind,

I'm asking Gareth Henson, SRY2627 & L176 project admin, the same question.

Thomas Krahn shows SRY2627 as a subclade of P312+ L176.2+.  He also shows L165 as a separate (brother) subclade of P312+ L176.2+.  This tree is "draft" only.  There might be some L176.2* out there as well.  This division and its locales, if it holds true, could be helpful in understanding P312 as a whole.
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root

ISOGG shows L165/S68 as a separate (brother) subclade of P312, just like SRY2627 and L21, etc. are.  They must feel L165 and SRY2627 are exclusive.  Of course, it is too early for them to declare L176.2, but we know there are some SRY2627+ that have L176.2+ and all (I think) L165+ so far are L176.2+.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

As best as I can tell from the P312 and SRY2627 project screens:

L176.2+ SRY2627- L165+

f163136   Thomas Ayton(Arton), b.c.1495, West Ayton, Scarborough, North Yorkshire, England
f54067   Willim M. McGirt, b.1881; d.1967
f99990   Sven Olofsson, b.c.1615, Orust Island, Västra Götaland Co., Bohuslän, Sweden
f40551   Thomas Greenwade, b.c.1800, Allegany Co., Maryland, USA

L176.2+ SRY2627- L165????

f41647   Thomas Miller, b.1797, Sunderland, Durham, England
f86995   Albert Pleis, b.1848, Hanover, Lower Saxony, Germany
f171839   John Noble, b.1800, Belfast, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland
f137480   John McLeod, b.c.1797, Ayrshire, Scotland

I don't know if anyone in this second group has tested for L165.  Do you?

[GoldenHind]

Plies was tested in the P312* WTY project, when (I believe) L176.2 was first discovered. Presumably L165 was part of that test. I believe Gareth offered those who were L176.2+ SRY2627- a place in his project, so presumably he should be able to answer your question.
If not, I have been in contact with Plies in the past, so I could ask him, as I suspect he has been keeping up on L176.2* results.

As an aside, I would note the confirmed L165 people mentioned above don't look particularly Celtic to me. Eupedia used to list it as a Germanic subclade, until they apparently realized this conflicted with their label of Italo- Celtic for P312, so now it is blank. One more example of the point I was trying to make in another thread about generalizations influencing the way data is interpreted.

[NealtheRed]

Yes, this was the MacLeod association to which I referred in another post.

Hopefully Clan MacLeod found their Leod! The largest number of related MacLeods share the haplotype.

[Mike Walsh]

Are you keeping track of those who are L176.2*? I know there are at least a few.

Goldenhind,

I'm asking Gareth Henson, SRY2627 & L176 project admin, the same question.

Thomas Krahn shows SRY2627 as a subclade of P312+ L176.2+.  He also shows L165 as a separate (brother) subclade of P312+ L176.2+.  This tree is "draft" only.  There might be some L176.2* out there as well.  This division and its locales, if it holds true, could be helpful in understanding P312 as a whole.
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root

ISOGG shows L165/S68 as a separate (brother) subclade of P312, just like SRY2627 and L21, etc. are.  They must feel L165 and SRY2627 are exclusive.  Of course, it is too early for them to declare L176.2, but we know there are some SRY2627+ that have L176.2+ and all (I think) L165+ so far are L176.2+.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
......

This is getting a little more interesting.. L176.2 that is.

Everyone so far that is L165+ is also L176.2+.  This is only a handful of people but it is holding true to-date.  These people are all SRY2626-.

Everyone so far that is SRY2627+ that has tested for L176.2 is L176.2+.  Gareth H, the SRY2627 admin, says there are 10 or so who have tested and are L176.2+.

I just saw the below post from Didier.

I know that it's difficult to know all these new SNPs. Here is a reminder. R1b1b2 has a main division in U106+ and P312+ ; we will focus on this later group (P312+) .
L176 is a STR know in chimp as 4 tandem repeats of a pentanucleotide AAAAC on the Y chromosome. In man most people have 5 repeats of this  AAAAC but a few ones were found to have 6 repeats and they are called L176+ . Among WTY results one case was found in a R1a sample (probably "private") , in R-P312+ there are 3 groups : those tested SRY2627+ who tested for L176 (called L176.2) are all L176.2+  meaning 6 repeats AAAAC (10 cases so far) ; those tested L165+ the SNP of the well known "Irish type III" group also* are all L176.2+ ; in addition a few R-P312* were found L176.2+ and this situation led Thomas Krahn to post a tree where L176.2+ is a branching and SRY2627+ and L165+ become brother clades :
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root
L276 is a SNP found in one case so far (so still considered private).

This post as an upgrade and an open possibility for discussion/comments on the possible common origin of this branching.

*EDIT: corrected in latter post.  L226+ don't appear to have L176.2+ nor L159.2+.

Of course, Jim Wilson reportedly feels L165+ has Norse Viking connections.  Possible brother SRY2627+ is Iberian / southern French.

[rms2]

. . .

Of course, Jim Wilson reportedly feels L165+ has Norse Viking connections.  Possible brother SRY2627+ is Iberian / southern French.

There are even a few SRY2627+ Scandinavians.

If L165 is Scandinavian, that could be another indication that perhaps the P312+ clades there came in with the Beaker Folk.

[NealtheRed]

Could someone fill me in on SRY2627? Is that primarily Iberian? I didn't know some Scandinavians tested positive for it.

[rms2]

Could someone fill me in on SRY2627? Is that primarily Iberian? I didn't know some Scandinavians tested positive for it.

It is found thus far primarily in Iberia and SW France, but there are a few SRY2627 in Scandinavia, and some elsewhere, as well. I know of a few right offhand in Germany and Belgium, for example. I could refer you to a couple of FTDNA projects, but apparently FTDNA project pages are down right now for maintenance.

[alan trowel hands.]

So basically the largely Iberian clade sry2627 and this possibly Scandinavian L-165 clade are brother clades from a common upstream ancestor L176.2 which itself is downstream of P312.  Do we know of any L176.2* people?  They would potentially indicate the common origin area and must be lurking among the P-312* people somewhere.  Wonder what the date is.  That puts the common ancestor in an equivalent position one down from P312 as L21, U152 etc and puts L165 and sry2627 in an equivalent position two down from p312 like the various historic period SNPs like M222 etc.  Does that tally in terms of variance?  I have no idea what the story behind L176.2. If it is a brother of L21 and U152 then it could be old but this is probably being far too simplistic.

[rms2]

I think some of the guys who are L176.2+ but SRY2627- have not been tested for L165/S68. I doubt that all of them are L165+, but we won't know until they are tested for it.

[GoldenHind]

I think some of the guys who are L176.2+ but SRY2627- have not been tested for L165/S68. I doubt that all of them are L165+, but we won't know until they are tested for it.

One person I know of who is L176.2*, ie SRY2627- and L165-, is Plies, whose ancestry is from Hannover in northern Germany. I believe there are a few others. I will check into it.

[GoldenHind]

I have done some checking. The only other L176.2* besides Plies I can find is Miller from Sunderland, England. There was a third suspected, McLeod, but he later tested L165/S68+.

[rms2]

MacDonald, Ysearch AWF2B, just got an S68+ (L165+) result from Ethnoancestry, so I've added him to the R-L165 category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

[bedlam49]

Hi,
My name is Alan, I am FTDNA 41647, the Miller you mentioned. I have sent for the L165 test but then found that it is the same as S68 for which I was tested at Ethnoancestry, Result was neg..

So I am P312+, L176.2+, SRY2627-, S68/L165-

For your info

[Mike Walsh]

Hi,
My name is Alan, I am FTDNA 41647, the Miller you mentioned. I have sent for the L165 test but then found that it is the same as S68 for which I was tested at Ethnoancestry, Result was neg..
So I am P312+, L176.2+, SRY2627-, S68/L165-
For your info

Thanks. Alan.
FQ7HW   41647   Thomas Miller, b.1797, Sunderland, Durham, England
7GZNQ   171839   John Noble, b.1800, Belfast, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland
QBRJW   86995   Albert Pleis, b.1848, Hanover, Lower Saxony, Germany
G3FQK   69443   Laurent Sarrazin, b.1880, Chauffayer, Haute-Alpes, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France

The first three above are P312+, L176.2+, SRY2627-, S68/L165- while the last one is P312+, L176.2+, SRY2627-, S68/L165 unknown.  My guess is he is L165- also and although there is no formal recognition by ISOGG it looks like you would be new paragroup called R-L176.2*.

This is an interesting group and possibly a clue as to the origins of two other groups: L165+ and SRY2627+.

L165 is considered Norse by EthnoAncestry while many consider SRY2627 Iberian, although it can be found scattered across France and Germany, as well as England.

Do you have any theories?