Checking out geographic affinities of R-L21* haplotypes

[Mike Walsh]

We talked about this topic recently so I asked John S. Walden to run a Fluxus diagram on this.  Many thanks to John for his work on this.

I can not detect any real geographical differences in R-L21* haplotypes.  The one exception is the East Europe, but that is obvious that the only East European samples we have are related to a very specific group of people.  Some say this group is from Western Europe that moved east during a disapora.

The graphic is posted at under "Files" at the following
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/

I'll repeat, I can not detect any real geographical differences in R-L21* haplotypes.

My interpretation is that this was an homogenous group (Y DNA wise) that exploded and spread very quickly.  There new SNP's being discovered (as well as M222+) but the haplotypes are not vastly different by geography.  

This is not the case of a tall tree with a few big branches that eventually "blossom" out sets of twigs (that would be Hg I.)  This is a case of a thick bush with many branches that has blossomed nearly all at once.  It must be a young bush because not nearly as many of the original branches have died out or become isolated as other haplogroups.

EDIT: John said he it is okay to list his full name, but we should cite that the tool he is using is from Fluxus Engineering.

[Mike Walsh]

We talked about this topic recently so I asked John S. Walden to run a Fluxus diagram on this.  Many thanks to John for his work on this.
I can not detect any real geographical differences in R-L21* haplotypes.  ......

I'll quote John on what he saw, "I see no structure at this time other than some possible clusters."

[alan trowel hands.]

Seems to be like a description of R1b1b2 in general.

[alan trowel hands.]

The problem I see is the hugely overblown representation of the isles and the extremely modest rerpresentation of the rest of Europe.  I think it must be distorted by at least a factor of 10.  If you think of all the small isles clusters that only comprise a small number then divide that by 10, then that sort of simulates why continental clusters have escaped detection at present.
 
What I am tempted to read into that figure and lack of geographical patterning is that despite the exposive natuie of L21 expansion, there must have been a homeland where L21 existed long enough for several variants to emerge before the main dispersal took place and that that dispersal involved pretty homogenious mixes of L21 people.  While variance seems to suggest all R1b1b2 emerged very quickly and that L21 came very hot on the heels of S116, there is no way of knowing how quickly L21 dispersed because there are no useful downstream SNPs until we are in the historic era.  There is a gap of a couple of thousand years between the usual MRCA variance dates and the downstream SNPs. 

So was L21 located in one area for a considerable time before dispersal?  That would seem to be hinted at by the diagram.  On the other hand variance calculations to date seem to contradict this as they show similar intraclade dates for L21 in both the isles and the continent. 

[Mike Walsh]

...  What I am tempted to read into that figure and lack of geographical patterning is that despite the exposive natuie of L21 expansion, there must have been a homeland where L21 existed long enough for several variants to emerge before the main dispersal took place and that that dispersal involved pretty homogenious mixes of L21 people.  While variance seems to suggest all R1b1b2 emerged very quickly and that L21 came very hot on the heels of S116, there is no way of knowing how quickly L21 dispersed because there are no useful downstream SNPs until we are in the historic era.  There is a gap of a couple of thousand years between the usual MRCA variance dates and the downstream SNPs.  

So was L21 located in one area for a considerable time before dispersal?  That would seem to be hinted at by the diagram.  On the other hand variance calculations to date seem to contradict this as they show similar intraclade dates for L21 in both the isles and the continent.  

It does seem that L21 must have been of fairly good size before the rapid expansion.  I guess that is almost self-evident.  It takes people to make people, but the point is their population must have expanded in place before it took off in all directions.

Given the time proximity of P312*, U152+ and L21+ expansions we know they must have been growing fast at an early time in their "careers".

In my mind I'm picturing a city with a number of large districts or suburbs that are growing extremely fast to the point where they finally burst in several directions.  Perhaps a P312* subclade or two predominated a suburb that sent colonists out to the west to Iberia.  Soon after or at about at the same time a suburb with predominately L21+ types moved north along the Rhine.  Perhaps a little later, a U152 oriented district, perhaps from the city center, expanded north and south.

Of course, none of the city districts were pure anything and over time whole other different peoples (probably from the east) moved into the old city so the P312 types became diluted there or moved away.  Perhaps the flight from the city to the new colonies was in search of the riches of "gold"... or more likely tin for making bronze.  Almost sounds like 15th and 16th century European explorers and colonists.

Well, so where's the homeland for L21?   It must not be far from the homeland of U152 and many P312* sub-clades.   My opinion of where it's not, given where there isn't the strong mix of all three is:
1) Not in the Isles
2) Not in Iberia
3) Not in Scandinavia

Well, that's not narrowing it too much, but there must have been a valley on the continent where a P312*, U152, L21 people had ample land, good climate and the resources to grow and hone their wares.