Now that the caprice, and I’d say more the arrogance than the knowledge, has brought some hobbyists or citizen scientists (actually anyway probably of no scientific value), to wander from a forum to another, and that I think having gained the demonstration of all my theories, I want that a thread of Anthrogenica, due not to me but to the moderator, is known also on the forums that I never abandoned.
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An interesting haplotype is this one. True R1b1*. It would be great for him to test for L389.
216826 Kaikhosro Javakhishvili M343+, P25+, P297-, M18-, M269-, M335-, M73-, V88-
216826 Javakhishvili Kaikhosro Javakhishvili, b.c. 15??, Georgia R1b1 R-P25 M18-, M269-, M335-, M343+, M73-, P25+, P297-, V88-
_R1b1* (L389+) Cluster B1 [M335-]
216826 Javakhishvili Kaikhosro Javakhishvili, b.c. 15??, Georgia Georgia R1b1
From
www.worldfamilies.net:
Re: Is Javakhishvili R-M335? by Maliclavelli
Re: Vizachero&Behar: the reassessment of R1b1* by Maliclavelli
Re: Answer to Jarman about the Robbins (R-L23/L150+) by Maliclavelli
Re: A Change in Research Paradigm RE R1b? by Mikewww
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Originally Posted by Mikewww
[Please explain in sentences what your reply is about rather than list subject lines and provide a URL and letting us do multiple searches, if that is what you had in mind. I'm good with having reference links but please explain what your points are. Essentially, this is devoid of content and could be deleted. :speaking as a Moderator]
I take it someone thinks this guy is L389+. Do we know?
This I wrote like Maliclavelli:
“Now we have had the reassessment of the reassessment: R1b1 has a Cluster B1 (with Javakhishvili too), B2 (R-M335) and C (Joshi). Vineviz said that this reassessment is due to a matrix plot, and this is right. How can we solve the question by me posed of the YCAII values?
If we take the 22 slow mutators of Anatole Klyosov (DYS 426, 388, 392, 455, 454, 438, 531, 578, 395S1a, 395S1b, 590, 641, 472, 425, 594, 436, 490, 450, 617, 568, 640, 492) we have these modals:
R1* 12 12 13 11 11 11 11 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 11 11 11 12
R1a (cluster 1) 12 12 13 11 11 11 11 8 15 16 8 11 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12
R1a (cluster 2) 12 12 13 11 12 12 9 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12
R1b1 (cluster A1) 12 13 13 11 11 11 11 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 11 11 11 12
R1b1 (cluster A2) 12 14 13 11 11 11 11 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 13 12 8 11 11 11 12
R1b1 (cluster A3) 11 13 13 11 11 11 11 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 11 11 11 12
R1b1(cluster A4) 12 13 12 10 11 11 11 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 11 11 11 14
R1b1 (cluster B1) 12 12 13 11 11 11 11 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 12 11
R1b1(cluster B2) 12 12 13 11 12 11 11 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 12 11
R1b1 (cluster C) 12 12 13 11 12 11 11 8 15 16 8 11 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 11
R1b1a-P297 12 12 13 11 11 11 11 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 11 11 11 12
R-M73 12 12 13 11 11 10 11 8 16 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 11 11 11 12
R-M269 (46835) 12 13 13 11 11 12 11 8 15 16 8 10 8 0 10 12 12 8 11 11 11 12
R-M269 11 12 13 11 11 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12
Now we can reconstruct all the trees and a first question is if we have to admit that the haplotypes so far found are of the same line of the subclades (thus we should presuppose some back mutations) or if they continue a parallel haplotype with that mutation that didn’t affect the main subclade. It is the case of DYS426=13 of R-L51 for instance or DYS426=11 of R-M269*.
Anyway we see clearly that as to R1b1 the clusters B1, B2 and C were the same cluster and had the mutations DYS617 from 11 to 12 and DYS492 from 12 to 11. After Cluster C separated and cluster B1 and B2 had the mutation DYS640 from 11 to 12. After each of this clusters had (or hadn’t) its own mutation(s). Then what may we say about YCAII? Cluster B1 has 21-23, cluster B2 has 18-23, cluster C has 20-24. We may hypothesize that from a hypothetical original 18-23 or 19-23 they had the same values till they formed the same cluster and that the actual values are due to their own history after the separation.
About Joshi (cluster C) I’d want to say that he is Indian, but, as he says in his ySearch account, “vajaseniya shukla madhyandin deshastha brahman vatsa gotra”, then of Brahmanic descent, one of the few R1b amongst them, but probably of Western Eurasian origin”.
Javakhishvili would be interesting if he were R-M335, the first found out of Europe and for me a proof of the origin of R-L389 and R-M335 in Europe (they have all YCAII=18-23 and this haplotype is the ancestor of the subclades and not the Eastern R1b1* with YCAII=21-23or 23-23). But Javakhishvili isn’t R-M335 but R-L389. This confirmed my theory.
But the news is that the first R-M343 has been tested (from Varanasi in India: see “ht 35 FTDNA Project” and “R1b1 FTDNA Project”). It is interesting because his 12 markers’ values demonstrate my theory of the mutations around the modal, being him so close to the other haplotypes of the subclades of R1b1 whereas it is probably many thousands of years apart; in fact he has 8 mutations only on the PF SNPs from R1b1, whereas all the subclades from R-L23 has the same PF SNPs, and they are separated from many thousands of years:
PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF4208+, PF4330+, PF500+, PF5061+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF667+, PF6868+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF7392+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+
PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6250+, PF6270+, PF6272+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+
Differences:
PF4208+, PF4330+, PF5061+, PF6249+, PF6263+, PF6271+, PF6868+, PF7392+,