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IALEM
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« Reply #275 on: September 07, 2012, 03:54:06 AM »

The whole idea of the anatolian origin of PIE is based on a priori conclusions, since IE languages are well extended in Europe there is a moment in which those languages extended, and what better moment than neolithic colonization, than in turn came from Anatolia, so there you are, PIE must come from Anatolia.
However all the facts known of Anatolian history contradicts that.
If we turn ito the prper research method instead of lookling for a priori conclussions, we sould see that what we have in Anatolia is a picture of recently arrived IE peoples over a substratum of non IE populations.
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« Reply #276 on: September 07, 2012, 05:15:46 AM »

The event in China is too distant and far back in time to have any influence on Western culture or that of a nascent IE in the Caucasus or emerging R1b in the Zagros.

Of course Arch. But what I'm saying is that we don't know where in the Near East beer was first made, unless you have some information unknown to me. It was certainly made long before wine.

I don't think that there was any nascent IE in the Caucasus. There is no evidence of that at all.
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Albannach
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« Reply #277 on: September 07, 2012, 08:08:52 AM »

I am a total newbie and still trying to learn so please excuse my ignorance but what evidence is their that R1b carried IE in to Europe? from what I have read on various forums R1b was brought to Europe by the Bell Beaker people who became Indo-Europeanized by contact with the R1a Cordedware Culture. Is this true? it is hard to know what is true or not as a lot of people seem to have agenda's. If it is true what language did the original R1b's speak? where did they come from and what route did they take to western Europe?



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Jean M
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« Reply #278 on: September 07, 2012, 10:19:14 AM »

...  what evidence is their that R1b carried IE in to Europe?

The joint distribution of R1b1a2 and R1a1a coincides pretty well with the distribution of Indo-European languages. Only if both are seen jointly do we see a match to the distribution of IE languages. Much as some men who carry one or the other of these haplogroups would like to see their haplogroup as the one-and-only source of the spread of IE, that simply does not fit the facts.    

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from what I have read on various forums R1b was brought to Europe by the Bell Beaker people who became Indo-Europeanized by contact with the R1a Cordedware Culture.

You have been reading the wrong forums. Corded Ware had no influence on BB. These are two cultures that both spring from the same source: Yamnaya on the European steppe, which is also deduced to be the source of PIE on linguistic and cultural grounds. BB and CW have many similarities, but there are also distinct differences. The similarities can all be traced to Yamnaya. The differences do not spread from one to the other of BB and CW.

The spread of CW over NE Europe certainly suggests that it carried R1a1a from Yamnaya. Indeed R1a1a has been found at a Corded Ware site. R1a1a has also been found in an Asian culture descended from Yamnaya - Andronovo.

The spread of BB suggests that it carried R1b1a2, and indeed it has been found at a BB site. The archaeological trail of Yamnaya up the Danube to the Carpathian Basin  is so heavily marked archaeologically that it has been fully accepted for decades as a mass migration. One feature is anthropomorphic stelae, which first appear on the steppe. There are a few in the Carpathian Basin. Then we find a trail of them from North Italy along to Iberia. That seems to mark the route of Proto-Celto-Italic speakers who later began to make Bell Beaker. They had nothing to do with Corded Ware. They had no contact with Corded Ware. Corded Ware people never went anywhere near Iberia.
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IALEM
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« Reply #279 on: September 07, 2012, 10:52:34 AM »


You have been reading the wrong forums. Corded Ware had no influence on BB. These are two cultures that both spring from the same source: Yamnaya on the European steppe, which is also deduced to be the source of PIE on linguistic and cultural grounds. BB and CW have many similarities, but there are also distinct differences. The similarities can all be traced to Yamnaya. The differences do not spread from one to the other of BB and CW.


Jean, that is your personal opinion, but it is not a vision generally held, in fact If I said something like that at my university I would be ridiculized.
What Albannach wrote, except for the genetic part, is what Mallory described as the most probable scenario
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« Reply #280 on: September 07, 2012, 11:03:15 AM »

The spread of BB suggests that it carried R1b1a2, and indeed it has been found at a BB site. The archaeological trail of Yamnaya up the Danube to the Carpathian Basin  is so heavily marked archaeologically that it has been fully accepted for decades as a mass migration. One feature is anthropomorphic stelae, which first appear on the steppe. There are a few in the Carpathian Basin. Then we find a trail of them from North Italy along to Iberia. That seems to mark the route of Proto-Celto-Italic speakers who later began to make Bell Beaker.

Ridiculous. How people coming from a R1a1a region would have brought to West R1b1 etc.?  I have written a post here and also on eng.molgen about R1a* in Western Europe. Even though probably the test of Irene Pichler et al. were made two years ago and their R1a* should be R1a1* and their R1a1* should be R1a1a and subclades, the percentage of R1a1*  in the Rhaetian Region is  anyway very  high and not comparable to other places where R1a is high now. We should add that the true R1a*/M420 is present above all in Western Europe and very few in Iran and Western Asia like a dust from the Russian Plane. Then the origin of R1a/R1b is the other way around : from West to East, and the same for the Indo-European languages.
I have given an appointment to Vincent Vizachero about Z2103/Z2105. The same to you. And that the BB derives from Yamnaya and not from the Impressa and Cardial from Italy is another desire of yours.
The unique thing uncertain yet is whether these agriculturalists from Italy were autochthonous or came from East, but I see very hard for you this too.
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« Reply #281 on: September 07, 2012, 12:13:18 PM »

I am a total newbie and still trying to learn so please excuse my ignorance but what evidence is their that R1b carried IE in to Europe? from what I have read on various forums R1b was brought to Europe by the Bell Beaker people who became Indo-Europeanized by contact with the R1a Cordedware Culture. Is this true? it is hard to know what is true or not as a lot of people seem to have agenda's. If it is true what language did the original R1b's speak? where did they come from and what route did they take to western Europe?





I am amused at the way Corded Ware is an R1a culture based on one site.  I wouldnt be surprised if the beaker=R1b and corded ware=R1a thing broke down once we have more than one site each.  Maybe it wont but its way too early to say corded ware=R1a.  If corded ware was a vector for major yDNA spread then it should be recalled that it spread well into the modern R1b-rich zone including the west Alpine area, south Germany, the Upper Rhone, the Rhine, the Low Countries etc. Corded Ware is the most obvious culture that could have swept eastern yDNA west in the pre-beaker era.  All the other options are rather more a matter of complex interpretation of a chain of links.  I wouldnt be surprised if Corded Ware actually turned out to be the main vector of spreading both R1a and R1b to the west.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #282 on: September 07, 2012, 12:39:46 PM »

(no Wiki involved :0)  

Only wondered because Wikipedia was making strange statements re B-D. I fixed it. I wouldn't use the word "conquest" about events at that date myself.

Reading recent papers about the very complex climatically driven internal displacement and return of groups within the steppes makes it seem that a marginal area like the steppes is going to be incredibly difficult to ever come up with anything concrete about how things without ancient DNA.  There are just far too wide a range of diverse opinions among experts on the pre-Yamnaya period on the steppes and its margins that the mind boggles. I dont think I am going to dabble in that any more and think I will just wait for some ancient yDNA from the period 6000-4000BC to be found and to reach a sample big enough to say anything.   
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #283 on: September 07, 2012, 01:24:24 PM »


I am amused at the way Corded Ware is an R1a culture based on one site.  I wouldnt be surprised if the beaker=R1b and corded ware=R1a thing broke down once we have more than one site each.  Maybe it wont but its way too early to say corded ware=R1a.  If corded ware was a vector for major yDNA spread then it should be recalled that it spread well into the modern R1b-rich zone including the west Alpine area, south Germany, the Upper Rhone, the Rhine, the Low Countries etc. Corded Ware is the most obvious culture that could have swept eastern yDNA west in the pre-beaker era.  All the other options are rather more a matter of complex interpretation of a chain of links.  I wouldnt be surprised if Corded Ware actually turned out to be the main vector of spreading both R1a and R1b to the west.    

On the contrary, I would be surprised if the R1a=Corded Ware, R1b=Beaker trend didn't hold up. Let's not forget that in places like Moravia and the Czech Republic were those cultures lived side by side, even the most junior archaeologist can tell the difference between a Corded Ware skeleton and a Bell Beaker skeleton. They are that distinct from one another. I can tell you without hesitation that Corded Ware makes very little sense for Italian pre-Beaker population, not in the timing, not in the distribution of R1b and not in the material cultural.
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« Reply #284 on: September 07, 2012, 02:27:51 PM »


I am amused at the way Corded Ware is an R1a culture based on one site.  I wouldnt be surprised if the beaker=R1b and corded ware=R1a thing broke down once we have more than one site each.  Maybe it wont but its way too early to say corded ware=R1a.  If corded ware was a vector for major yDNA spread then it should be recalled that it spread well into the modern R1b-rich zone including the west Alpine area, south Germany, the Upper Rhone, the Rhine, the Low Countries etc. Corded Ware is the most obvious culture that could have swept eastern yDNA west in the pre-beaker era.  All the other options are rather more a matter of complex interpretation of a chain of links.  I wouldnt be surprised if Corded Ware actually turned out to be the main vector of spreading both R1a and R1b to the west.    

On the contrary, I would be surprised if the R1a=Corded Ware, R1b=Beaker trend didn't hold up. Let's not forget that in places like Moravia and the Czech Republic were those cultures lived side by side, even the most junior archaeologist can tell the difference between a Corded Ware skeleton and a Bell Beaker skeleton. They are that distinct from one another. I can tell you without hesitation that Corded Ware makes very little sense for Italian pre-Beaker population, not in the timing, not in the distribution of R1b and not in the material cultural.

true but that doesnt tell us what the pool of male lineages were at the start.  The same male lineages may have mixed with different local groups and developed peculiar phenotypes prior to expansion. Also, as I have posted before, both Bell beaker and P312 exploded so fast in 100 years or so that the peculiar beaker types noted (which I understand are a minority among a less distinctive general group) may have basically been one extended family c. 2500-2400BC (when they expanded really dramtically) with a family resemblence.  The geographical patterning of the major downstream clades in Europe whose variance is very little different from L11, P312 etc (i.e. L21, U152 etc) indicates that this line was travelling fast at the time it was exploding into branches.  This matches too the sudden extension of beaker out of its smaller core and across a wide area in 100 years or so. Basically if Mr P312 came into being in SE France (or similar), his grandsons or great grandsons were settling in the north a century later.  That to me is a dramtic but initially very small scale expansion (which by implication cannot have been a military one - there was not enough time between P312 and L21 for example for there to be many of them.   

I am not sure its wise to look on either P312 or the beaker groups as a race or something similar to that.  I also think this extended family idea possible the reason why its hard to find their ancestors. Its not easy to detect a single non-prolific family (as the lack of ancestral L51* suggests) prior to their sudden explosion.  Somewhere in Europe one guy suddenly produced a line that spread far and wide.  Yes that does suggest the beakers 'family' was R1b but I am a lot less certain that in pre-beaker times R1b was was confined to one culture.  Just because one L11 line or P312 line out of the blue expanded dramatically does not indicate they were from an R1b-dominated group or that R1b was not present in other groups. Other groups look less like a single-family expansion.  Just to make clear I am not trying to derive the beaker people's ancestors from any particular pre-beaker culture but I am saying that one explosive lineage could have come a population with any sort of mix of haplogroups and clades.   
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Jean M
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« Reply #285 on: September 07, 2012, 02:38:41 PM »

What Albannach wrote, except for the genetic part, is what Mallory described as the most probable scenario

Mallory has said no such thing. In the Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture (1997), p. 53 he said:

Quote
The Beaker "culture" has often been associated with the Indo-Europeans since there are good reasons to derive it from the area of the earlier Corded Ware culture (the Netherlands/ Rhineland region is probably the most widely accepted), which is frequently regarded as early Indo-European. Alternatively, Marija Gimbutas derived the Beakers from east central European cultures that witnessed the early impact ...

In other words he presented the Dutch origin theory that was popular at the time he wrote. Since then other publications have blown apart the Dutch origin theory.  Mallory is well aware of this. He is not living in 1997. The dating evidence shows that BB and CW are contemporary. CW was thought at one time to be earlier. Not so. The earliest BB is in the southern group. Yes some arrived from Portugal by coast to the mouth of the Rhine quite early on. But that was not the origin point. Harrison & Heyd have clearly proven that Bell Beaker derives from  the earlier copper-producing culture that arrived in Iberia.

If your university is unaware of any publication relating to Bell Beaker later than 1997, then it is behind the times. Strange as it may seem to you, I am not intending to go into print with views that are not shared by any academic. I'm not going to drop names here of the persons who have refereed my text, but I can tell you that none of the eminent archaeologists concerned has objected to what I say about the origins of Bell Beaker.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #286 on: September 07, 2012, 03:11:41 PM »

(as the lack of ancestral L51* suggests)
So far, for what I know, only one Italian has been tested (Lorenzini), and Italy (above all Tuscany, Emilia, etc.) is plenty of R-L23 which are certainly L277- and L584-. Don't look at the "ht 35 FTDNA Project": there I, my son, my cousin (a different line) aren't. If 1KGP is reliable, R-L23 should be 2% in Tuscany, i.e. 36,000 L23, and I think having demonstrated in another thread that my haplotype, even though with many mutations in the first markers as to my "cousin" Tognarelli, is the closest to the subclades at 111 markers. I think that L11 was already expanding to north (in fact we find the highest presence in the Alpine region, in the Baltic region and in the Isles, and less in Italy. But L51* will be found here!
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« Reply #287 on: September 07, 2012, 03:49:05 PM »

Quote from: alan trowel hands.
If corded ware was a vector for major yDNA spread then it should be recalled that it spread well into the modern R1b-rich zone including the west Alpine area, south Germany, the Upper Rhone, the Rhine, the Low Countries etc.

That's s good point! I hadn't really even thought on that before. But I still think CW brought a lot of r1a given the likely places and timings of it's mutations.

Quote from: alan trowel hands.
I wouldnt be surprised if Corded Ware actually turned out to be the main vector of spreading both R1a and R1b to the west.

The genetics of that is too hard to imagine. How could one migrating group carry such a strong degree of internal structure so that one part of the migration leaves r1a and the other, r1b?

Sure, I might argue that PIE, or early IE, had internal structure but that's easier to argue when they aren't one migrating group.

You could say that western r1b pcw migrated before eastern r1a pcw but that senario is just too strange on multiple levels.

BTW, could someone tell me the correct way of using the terms bell beaker and beaker? I had always called the western expansion bell beaker, and the later (mixed) eastern expansion beaker.
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IALEM
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« Reply #288 on: September 07, 2012, 04:59:23 PM »

What Albannach wrote, except for the genetic part, is what Mallory described as the most probable scenario

Mallory has said no such thing. In the Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture (1997), p. 53 he said:

Quote
The Beaker "culture" has often been associated with the Indo-Europeans since there are good reasons to derive it from the area of the earlier Corded Ware culture (the Netherlands/ Rhineland region is probably the most widely accepted), which is frequently regarded as early Indo-European. Alternatively, Marija Gimbutas derived the Beakers from east central European cultures that witnessed the early impact ...

In other words he presented the Dutch origin theory that was popular at the time he wrote. Since then other publications have blown apart the Dutch origin theory.  Mallory is well aware of this. He is not living in 1997. The dating evidence shows that BB and CW are contemporary. CW was thought at one time to be earlier. Not so. The earliest BB is in the southern group. Yes some arrived from Portugal by coast to the mouth of the Rhine quite early on. But that was not the origin point. Harrison & Heyd have clearly proven that Bell Beaker derives from  the earlier copper-producing culture that arrived in Iberia.

If your university is unaware of any publication relating to Bell Beaker later than 1997, then it is behind the times. Strange as it may seem to you, I am not intending to go into print with views that are not shared by any academic. I'm not going to drop names here of the persons who have refereed my text, but I can tell you that none of the eminent archaeologists concerned has objected to what I say about the origins of Bell Beaker.

Jean, you will say in your book that BB and CW have the same origin and no one has objected that? Is that what you say?
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« Reply #289 on: September 07, 2012, 06:58:08 PM »

Quote from: alan trowel hands.
If corded ware was a vector for major yDNA spread then it should be recalled that it spread well into the modern R1b-rich zone including the west Alpine area, south Germany, the Upper Rhone, the Rhine, the Low Countries etc.

That's s good point! I hadn't really even thought on that before. But I still think CW brought a lot of r1a given the likely places and timings of it's mutations.

Quote from: alan trowel hands.
I wouldnt be surprised if Corded Ware actually turned out to be the main vector of spreading both R1a and R1b to the west.

The genetics of that is too hard to imagine. How could one migrating group carry such a strong degree of internal structure so that one part of the migration leaves r1a and the other, r1b?

Sure, I might argue that PIE, or early IE, had internal structure but that's easier to argue when they aren't one migrating group.

You could say that western r1b pcw migrated before eastern r1a pcw but that senario is just too strange on multiple levels.

BTW, could someone tell me the correct way of using the terms bell beaker and beaker? I had always called the western expansion bell beaker, and the later (mixed) eastern expansion beaker.

Well firstly, remember if the variance guys are right in their calculations, most western European R1b is descended from just one guy living c. 2600BC or so.  So we dont need to see blocks of R1b.  Its just one R1b guy.  Also the possibility that R1b migrated before R1a west shouldnt be ruled out.  It would fit the fact that in Europe anyway R1b is tied to the centum form of the language that broke away from the core earlier.  R1a had to stay in the core zone a little longer for it to experience the saetem change.  Come to think about it that would maybe support the idea that in pre-Corded Ware times (perhaps  meaning pre-3000BC - there is some reviewing about this going on) some R1b had already distanced itself from the core zone in eastern Europe.   However, that really Of course there is all sorts of wriggle room so anything is possible.   We really dont know anything about the westward movement of R1a and R1b until we find both near each other in Germany c. 2600BC.

What does R1a variance look like on a country by country basis?
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« Reply #290 on: September 07, 2012, 07:17:17 PM »

Jean- One thing I was wondering is has anyone put in print anything linking the pre-beaker copper age culture of western Iberia with an arrival of people who had got there by moving along the Alps?  I understand that H&H place Yamnanya influences all over Europe but has anyone explicitly recently discussed the external origins of the west Iberian cultures of pre-beaker copper age?  
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Jean M
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« Reply #291 on: September 07, 2012, 07:18:17 PM »

Jean, you will say in your book that BB and CW have the same origin and no one has objected that?

The same origin in the sense that both derive culturally from Yamnaya and both can be deduced to be speaking a form of PIE or close descendant,  not that the populations were exactly the same genetically or came from the exact same spot on the steppe. Why would anyone object? Anthony 2007 said this. Harrison and Heyd said this. What exactly is the problem?
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« Reply #292 on: September 07, 2012, 07:35:13 PM »

Jean- One thing I was wondering is has anyone put in print anything linking the pre-beaker copper age culture of western Iberia with an arrival of people who had got there by moving along the Alps?  I understand that H&H place Yamnaya influences all over Europe but has anyone explicitly recently discussed the external origins of the west Iberian Vila Nova de Sao Pedro culture of pre-beaker copper age culture?  

Let's say that I hope no-one has told the story exactly as I do. I like to think I have made a contribution there. But I must correct one point - I do not say that they got there by moving along the Alps. They seems to have made forays into the Alps on the return journey, as it were, creating more routes than the coastal one they arrived by.

Plenty has been written on the stelae, and I have not read it all, so I can't swear that no-one has made the specific point, though a number have come very close, including Lemercier and Harrison/Heyd who point to the chain of contact among the southern BB. Harrison and Heyd made the specific point that Bell Beaker people at Sion were derived from the Copper Age arrivals there. Other authors have argued for Bell Beaker arising in Portugal from the Copper Age arrivals there (on archaeological evidence of continuity from same.) I have just pieced the story together and related it to linguistics and genetics.

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« Reply #293 on: September 07, 2012, 07:38:49 PM »

By the way, the new paper Patterson et al., Ancient Admixture in Human History, Genetics, finds evidence of "Substantial population movement into Spain occurring around the same time as the archaeologically attested Bell-Beaker phenomenon". I'm still reading it. 
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« Reply #294 on: September 07, 2012, 08:19:02 PM »

@jean

I have no idea how books are made and published, so take what I say as curiosity...

How come you aren't publishing until one year from now? Isn't there a chance that some of the "big questions", which your book addresses (like the BB-steppe-r1b connection), will be answered around that time by adna?

Of course, I would still read your book for the depth and story it provides, ie the whole backdrop of these "big questions".

Just curious, you seem to have a good grasp of what you want to say.
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« Reply #295 on: September 07, 2012, 08:36:48 PM »

@jean

How come you aren't publishing until one year from now?

That is just the normal timetable for this publisher, which is international in outlook. The timetable will vary according to publication type. Books of local interest might have a much faster lead-in time. They don't have to think about possible foreign editions.

Even papers for scholarly journals are often written a year before publication, and can be out of date by the time they hit print. They have to go through a refereeing process for one thing. Nowadays months can be shaved off by publishing online before print. 

You could say that I published online before print (up to a point) and that was a useful process. It is annoying for readers that there is a big wait now for the (much revised and enlarged) print version. But it can't be helped.
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« Reply #296 on: September 07, 2012, 08:46:28 PM »

Quote from: alan trowel hands.
most western European R1b is descended from just one guy living c. 2600BC or so. So we dont need to see blocks of R1b. Its just one R1b guy

Hmmmmm, I'm not sure what perspective to take but...

For one thing, that guy had a lot of time for his haplogroup to grow relative to the others around him. In that whole time period there have been many population expansions and population crashes to over represent his particular haplogroup.

It's still just too hard for me to comprehend r1b segregating itself within a migration at the right time and place. Another option would be the analogy to the r1b founder, but I can't see r1b having a huge amount reproductive advantage in the west, while r1a has extremely bad luck (even relative to the other hgs) in that time frame. Then the reverse happens simultaneously in the east?

That how it appears to me, but ill admit that strange stuff does happen!

@jean, ya, we are at least aware of some of the stances you have taken.
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« Reply #297 on: September 07, 2012, 09:18:22 PM »

Jean you probably have these on the Portuguese pre-beaker copper age but this in case here they are

http://mtmercy.academia.edu/AnnaWaterman/Papers/664433/In_search_of_homelands_using_strontium_isotopes_to_identify_biological_markers_of_mobility_in_late_prehistoric_Portugal


http://run.unl.pt/bitstream/10362/6220/1/Pereira_2011.pdf
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« Reply #298 on: September 07, 2012, 10:22:51 PM »

The event in China is too distant and far back in time to have any influence on Western culture or that of a nascent IE in the Caucasus or emerging R1b in the Zagros.

Of course Arch. But what I'm saying is that we don't know where in the Near East beer was first made, unless you have some information unknown to me. It was certainly made long before wine.

I don't think that there was any nascent IE in the Caucasus. There is no evidence of that at all.

Try this for the beer. Nobody really knows where IE originated, fair game I guess.
http://www.penn.museum/sites/biomoleculararchaeology/?page_id=84
Arch
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« Reply #299 on: September 08, 2012, 04:09:24 AM »

Jean, you will say in your book that BB and CW have the same origin and no one has objected that?

The same origin in the sense that both derive culturally from Yamnaya and both can be deduced to be speaking a form of PIE or close descendant,  not that the populations were exactly the same genetically or came from the exact same spot on the steppe. Why would anyone object? Anthony 2007 said this. Harrison and Heyd said this. What exactly is the problem?

Well, "derive culturally" is not the same a "same origin". I mean, if you say BB in Western Iberia growth out of Yamnaya influences, then I think few people will agree, but if you say that along the BB process of development Yamnaya influences were absorbed, that is a different story.
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MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

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