Mapping the Origins and Expansion of the Indo-European Language Family

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Heber:
Quote from: Jean M on September 07, 2012, 07:38:49 PM

By the way, the new paper Patterson et al., Ancient Admixture in Human History, Genetics, finds evidence of "Substantial population movement into Spain occurring around the same time as the archaeologically attested Bell-Beaker phenomenon". I'm still reading it.  


Below is what Patterson has to say about Bell Beakers. This indicates that after an initial expansion out of Iberia there was a reverse flow back to Iberia. The timing is 3600 +/- 400 BP.

Couple this with yesterday's three papers from Tyler-Smith, Wei and Xue indicating an "extreme" expansion of R1b into Europe ~5 -10 KYA.

If the R1b expansion was associated with the Neolithic expansion out of Anatolia and P312 or L11 expansion with the Bell Beaker expansion out of Iberia we are beginning to see a pattern emerge.

Paterson uses a (SNP) array consisting of 629,433 sites designed for Population Genetics.
Tyler-Smith used 18,700 SNPs on the Y Chrosomone from the 1000 Genome project and 5,865 from the Complete Genomics data set.

"We applied rolloff to Spain using Ireland and Sardinians as the reference populations. In Fig- ure 7c we show a rolloff curve. The rolloff of signed LD out to about 2 cM is clear, and gives an admixture age of 3600 ± 400 B.P. (the standard error was computed using a block jackknife with a block size of 5cM).
We have detected here a signal of gene flow from northern Europe into Spain around 2000 B.C. We discuss a likely interpretation. At this time there was a characteristic pottery termed ‘bell-beakers’ believed to correspond to a population spread across Iberia and northern Europe. We hypothesize that we are seeing here a genetic signal of the ‘Bell-Beaker culture’ (HARRISON, 1980). Initial cultural flow of the Bell-Beakers appears to have been from South to North, but the full story may be complex. Indeed one hypothesis is that after an initial expansion from Iberia there was a reverse flow back to Iberia (CZEBRESZUK, 2003); this ‘reflux’ model is broadly concordant with our genetic results, and if this is the correct explanation it suggests that this reverse flow may have been accompanied by substantial population movement."

Jean M:
Quote from: Heber on September 08, 2012, 02:24:53 PM

Do we know of a connection between Bell Beakers an Stelae People.


Have you not read any of my posts on this thread? Or my page on Bell Beaker when it was online? Would you like me to send you a copy?

alan trowel hands.:
Quote from: princenuadha on September 08, 2012, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: Jean M on September 08, 2012, 11:35:38 AM

@ Alan

I realise that it is a wrench to switch the neuron connections of decades. But I think we really have to accept that the Stelae People are genetically the same as the southern BB people. That is not evidence from aDNA, but it is only a matter of time before we get it, on present evidence. They had the same dental traits. The southern BB  looked after the graves of the Stelae people. There is archaeological continuity between them from Sion to Zambujal. The big changes that look like migrations happen:

1) When the Copper Age Stelae People arrive.
2) In the middle of the Bell Beaker period, when it looks like new BB people arrive from north of the Alps, who look different - broad-headed.

These second lot of BB people entered eastern Iberia to some extent, where they later seem to be the Celtiberians, but they did not spread all over Iberia. They did not replace all the previous Stelae People.

They do not explain the R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27 in Iberia. The distribution of R1b subclades in Iberia is not the same as that in France and the British Isles. We don't have to see all BB as exactly the same genetically. It is not all L21. In the British Isles it may well be dominated by L21, because most of the BB in the Isles seems to have come from the Rhine. But Iberia is not dominated by L21.  


We are getting tantilizingly close to understanding the genetic past.

The following paper/post concludes that a "north european" element entered iberia in a time frame consistent with bell beakers.

 http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/estimating-admixture-proportions-and.html?m=1


I personally doubt that in Iberia the farmers and hunters lived side by side as late as 2-3000BC.  Actually Dienekes is reviving an old idea about the late Neolithic or copper age being a result of the final absorbtion of hunters with farmers.  The idea was raised in an isles context too.  However, there just isnt any evidence for the a lingering hunter group as late as 2-3000BC in the isles or Iberia.  If I recall correctly the hunters in the area sampled were much older and likely left Iberia when

Jean M:
Quote from: Heber on September 08, 2012, 03:21:06 PM

Couple this with yesterday's three papers from Tyler-Smith, Wei and Xue indicating an "extreme" expansion of R1b into Europe ~5 -10 KYA.


The initial dating by Tyler-Smith and colleagues of said expansion was 5-8 KYA = c. 4500 BC.* I dare say it occurred to him that this did not fit the Neolithic as he expected it to and the date has been revised upwards to c. 5500 BC. That still does not fit the European Neolithic (7000 BC +) very well. Plus no R1b has turned up in Neolithic remains. G2a is dominant.

Other geneticists have realised what this means. They published recently in Trends in Genetics. It means that R1b spread across Europe post-Neolithic. I spoke to one of the authors recently. He confirmed his view that R1b did not arrive in western Europe until the Copper/Bronze Age.    

*Barbara Arredi, Estella S. Poloni and Chris Tyler Smith, The Peopling of Europe, Chapter 13 in  Michael Crawford (Ed): Anthropological Genetics, Theory, Methods and Applications; Cambridge University Press 2007.

Heber:
Quote from: alan trowel hands. on September 08, 2012, 03:30:38 PM

Quote from: princenuadha on September 08, 2012, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: Jean M on September 08, 2012, 11:35:38 AM

@ Alan

I realise that it is a wrench to switch the neuron connections of decades. But I think we really have to accept that the Stelae People are genetically the same as the southern BB people. That is not evidence from aDNA, but it is only a matter of time before we get it, on present evidence. They had the same dental traits. The southern BB  looked after the graves of the Stelae people. There is archaeological continuity between them from Sion to Zambujal. The big changes that look like migrations happen:

1) When the Copper Age Stelae People arrive.
2) In the middle of the Bell Beaker period, when it looks like new BB people arrive from north of the Alps, who look different - broad-headed.

These second lot of BB people entered eastern Iberia to some extent, where they later seem to be the Celtiberians, but they did not spread all over Iberia. They did not replace all the previous Stelae People.

They do not explain the R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27 in Iberia. The distribution of R1b subclades in Iberia is not the same as that in France and the British Isles. We don't have to see all BB as exactly the same genetically. It is not all L21. In the British Isles it may well be dominated by L21, because most of the BB in the Isles seems to have come from the Rhine. But Iberia is not dominated by L21.  


We are getting tantilizingly close to understanding the genetic past.

The following paper/post concludes that a "north european" element entered iberia in a time frame consistent with bell beakers.

 http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/estimating-admixture-proportions-and.html?m=1


I personally doubt that in Iberia the farmers and hunters lived side by side as late as 2-3000BC.  Actually Dienekes is reviving an old idea about the late Neolithic or copper age being a result of the final absorbtion of hunters with farmers.  The idea was raised in an isles context too.  However, there just isnt any evidence for the a lingering hunter group as late as 2-3000BC in the isles or Iberia.  If I recall correctly the hunters in the area sampled were much older and likely left Iberia when


Here is what Dienekes has to say on the Paper and Bell Beakers. As I am mainly interested in Celtic Migrations, I would assume that the Bell Beakers were connected to the Celtic expansion from Iberia. As he says, the plot thickens.

"Another application of the new methodology is to Spain, where many analyses (including some of the Dodecad Project) have shown that the population has both a "Mediterranean" and a "North European" component. The authors date this admixture to 3,600 +/- 400 BP, and they associate it with Bell Beaker-related backflow into Iberia. However, a newer study that probably appeared when this paper was in review showed that Mesolithic Iberians were also North European-like. So, one probably does not need a special explanation for their case: the Neolithic/Mesolithic mix that occurred in Scandinavia, probably also occurred in Spain.  The 3.6ky signal for North European/Sardinian-like admixture in Spain is similar to the 4.15ky signal of North Eurasian/Sardinian  admixture in northern Europe. Both cases may reflect the same event. The authors point out that these dates are inconsistent with Visigoths and the like contributing a major portion of north European ancestry to Spain, consistent with the Ralph and Coop (2012) study. It might even be tempting to ascribe the small ~0.5k difference in the age of the signal to this later migration, or even to Celtic-related migrations, since the Celts -based on phenotypic descriptions by ancient authors- belonged to a substantial degree to the northern Europeoids.

It will certainly be interesting to study the Beaker folk's autosomal DNA in relation to European prehistory, as R1b makes its first appearance with them on the European scene. Were they the people who brought North European/East Eurasian-like ancestry into Iberia, or did the pre-existing I folk already possess it? As more ancient DNA is sampled, so will our ideas about the sequence of events be better informed. (If Iron Age people from Bulgaria were also like Sardinians, then, as they say, the plot thickens.)"

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