Mapping the Origins and Expansion of the Indo-European Language Family

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alan trowel hands.:
Quote from: Jean M on September 08, 2012, 11:35:38 AM

@ Alan

I realise that it is a wrench to switch the neuron connections of decades. But I think we really have to accept that the Stelae People are genetically the same as the southern BB people. That is not evidence from aDNA, but it is only a matter of time before we get it, on present evidence. They had the same dental traits. The southern BB  looked after the graves of the Stelae people. There is archaeological continuity between them from Sion to Zambujal. The big changes that look like migrations happen:

1) When the Copper Age Stelae People arrive.
2) In the middle of the Bell Beaker period, when it looks like new BB people arrive from north of the Alps, who look different - broad-headed.

These second lot of BB people entered eastern Iberia to some extent, where they later seem to be the Celtiberians, but they did not spread all over Iberia. They did not replace all the previous Stelae People.

They do not explain the R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27 in Iberia. The distribution of R1b subclades in Iberia is not the same as that in France and the British Isles. We don't have to see all BB as exactly the same genetically. It is not all L21. In the British Isles it may well be dominated by L21, because most of the BB in the Isles seems to have come from the Rhine. But Iberia is not dominated by L21.  


Jean I think we are a bit at crossed purposes.  I have no problem with the idea that there were small but important groups of copper age people working there way west as far as Iberia.  I dont have a problem with the idea of a chain of these small groups linking Iberia, southern France and the Alps in the pre-beaker phase.  I also dont have a problem with the concept that they stayed in touch and either pots etc or people spread from the west end of that pre-beaker network as far as say SE France and NW Italy, forming the zone of early beaker dates as defined by M&W.  I am not 100% sure its the last twist in the tail but I am happy to work with that as the latest anlaysis.   I am also happy with the idea that there was a second wave of beakers with the distinct type among them from a more central European source. 

Where I am (I think) differing from you is that I am not convinced the stelae people or the early phase beaker people in Iberia and along the west Med. were R1b.  What I think is an alternative is that R1b only entered the beaker culture in the secondary/middle phase of 'new' beaker people giving rise to the full beaker package and I believe that R1b only entered Iberia in that secondary period (i.e. the stelae people and the earliest beaker users were not R1b or at least not P312.  I tend to think of it more of a case of non-beaker central European people taking on some beaker ideas than early beaker people from the south-west taking on central European ideas but some sort of hybriding of cultures happened anyway and it may have been complex.  Clearly the location where the 'new' beaker people arose had to be in central Europe but close enough for them to have contact with the early beaker groups. 

Jean M:
Quote from: alan trowel hands. on September 08, 2012, 01:01:31 PM

Where I am (I think) differing from you is that I am not convinced the stelae people or the early phase beaker people in Iberia and along the west Med. were R1b.  What I think is an alternative is that R1b only entered the beaker culture in the secondary/middle phase of 'new' beaker people giving rise to the full beaker package

Yes I know what you think Alan. And I am telling you that it does not add up. The Eastern Bell Beaker types spread L21. There is a lot of R1b in Iberia that is not L21. Iberia is genetically different from the British Isles and France. That would not be the case if they all were populated by the same wave of people - the Eastern BB.

It is not just a question of genetics. Linguistically the Stelae People can be linked to Proto-Italo-Celtic. The Eastern BB developed Celtic. There were remnants of Proto-Italo-Celtic in western Iberia (Lusitanian), while Celtiberian was a stage further towards Celtic.  

Maliclavelli:
Quote from: Jean M on September 08, 2012, 01:24:48 PM

It is not just a question of genetics. Linguistically the Stelae People can be linked to Proto-Italo-Celtic. The Eastern BB developed Celtic. There were remnants of Proto-Italo-Celtic in western Iberia (Lusitanian), while Celtiberian was a stage further towards Celtic.  


Incredible! But Italic-Celtic languages were spoken in Italy, and from Italy in Iberia (Lusitanian, linked with Ligurian).
In the map of the stelae peoples posted above, out of 13 places 7 (comprising Haut Provence) were in Italy or nearby. Only 2 in the East, and those 2 would have peopled all Western Europe!

The same reasoning is that of Dienekes’. When Oetzi was going to be examined and I said he would have been linked with Italians, he said that he would have been linked with Middle Eastern people. Now that it is clear that he is linked with Sardinians above all, he says that Sardinians came recently from East (Caucasus, Middle East or whichever from East). But he says these lies with many caveats, but you don’t know either these.

Richard Rocca:
Quote from: alan trowel hands. on September 08, 2012, 01:01:31 PM


Where I am (I think) differing from you is that I am not convinced the stelae people or the early phase beaker people in Iberia and along the west Med. were R1b.  What I think is an alternative is that R1b only entered the beaker culture in the secondary/middle phase of 'new' beaker people giving rise to the full beaker package and I believe that R1b only entered Iberia in that secondary period (i.e. the stelae people and the earliest beaker users were not R1b or at least not P312.  I tend to think of it more of a case of non-beaker central European people taking on some beaker ideas than early beaker people from the south-west taking on central European ideas but some sort of hybriding of cultures happened anyway and it may have been complex.  Clearly the location where the 'new' beaker people arose had to be in central Europe but close enough for them to have contact with the early beaker groups. 


Alan, is there a reason why you don't think they were R1b? The distribution of R1b makes little sense when considering just the Begleitkeramik group and only some sense when considering all Bell Beaker groups. It is only when pre-BB Copper Age groups + all Bell Beaker groups are taken into account that the R1b distribution makes sense.

Heber:
Quote from: Jean M on September 08, 2012, 11:10:28 AM

For those still doubting the existence of anthropomorphic stelae in Iberia: http://www.springerimages.com/Images/SocialSciences/1-10.1007_s10816-009-9066-z-1


Interesting maps. However they appear to be a Meditteranean and Atlantic route rather than an overland route. It seemed that metal workers also favored maritime routes as they could spot the ore seams from coastal navigation. Do we know of a connection between Bell Beakers an Stelae People.

http://www.springerimages.com/Images/SocialSciences/1-10.1007_s10816-009-9066-z-0

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