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Heber
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« Reply #300 on: September 08, 2012, 05:31:25 AM »

By the way, the new paper Patterson et al., Ancient Admixture in Human History, Genetics, finds evidence of "Substantial population movement into Spain occurring around the same time as the archaeologically attested Bell-Beaker phenomenon". I'm still reading it. 

This is a very interesting paper with good analysis  by Dienekes and Razib.

"A conclusion to an important paper, Nick Patterson, Priya Moorjani, Yontao Luo, Swapan Mallick, Nadin Rohland, Yiping Zhan, Teri Genschoreck, Teresa Webster, and David Reich:
In particular, we have presented evidence suggesting that the genetic history of Europe from around 5000 B.C. includes:
1. The arrival of Neolithic farmers probably from the Middle East.
2. Nearly complete replacement of the indigenous Mesolithic southern European populations by Neolithic migrants, and admixture between the Neolithic farmers and the indigenous Europeans in the north.
3. Substantial population movement into Spain occurring around the same time as the archaeologically attested Bell-Beaker phenomenon (HARRISON, 1980).
4. Subsequent mating between peoples of neighboring regions, resulting in isolation-by-distance (LAO et al., 2008; NOVEMBRE et al., 2008). This tended to smooth out population structure that existed 4,000 years ago.
Further, the populations of Sardinia and the Basque country today have been substantially less influenced by these events...

We hypothesize that we are seeing here a genetic signal of the ‘Bell-Beaker culture’ (HARRISON, 1980). Initial cultural flow of the Bell-Beakers appears to have been from South to North, but the full story may be complex. Indeed one hypothesis is that after an initial expansion from Iberia there was a reverse flow back to Iberia (CZEBRESZUK, 2003); this ‘reflux’ model is broadly concordant with our genetic results, and if this is the correct explanation it suggests that this reverse flow may have been accompanied by substantial population movement."

Following Dr. Chris Tyler Smith paper earlier this week of "extreme" Neolithic  expansion of R1b ~5-10 K YBP in Europe Patterson would appear to suggest a very rapid expansion of R1b sub clades (L11 - P312 ??) out of and in to Iberia 3,600 +/- 400 BP driven by the Bell Beakers which led to L21 on the Atlantic Facade and The Isles, U152 from Alpine to the Brabant, U106 in Central Europe.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/across-the-sea-of-grass-how-northern-europeans-got-to-be-10-northeast-asian/

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/09/estimating-admixture-proportions-and.html

http://dna2012.gerichtsmedizin.at/files/DNA_in_Forensics_2012.pdf

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763708372/








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Jean M
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« Reply #301 on: September 08, 2012, 05:42:11 AM »

Well, "derive culturally" is not the same a "same origin". I mean, if you say BB in Western Iberia growth out of Yamnaya influences, then I think few people will agree  

Really. We have anthropomorphic stelae all the way from the steppe to Iberia and you don't think that scholars are capable of recognising this very obvious piece of evidence. You feel that the large number of cultural similarities between the Copper Age arrivals in Iberia and Yamnaya, listed by H and H, are going to be ignored by the world of scholarship. You feel that the papers discussing the similarity of motif on Bell Beaker pottery and on the stelae, and the fact that BB people were clearly related to those who made the stelae are going to be ignored. You feel that papers pointing out that Bell Beaker pottery in Iberia was encrusted with bone paste, a method first found on pottery in the Danube Basin, are going to be ignored. You feel in short that the huge body of evidence that has amassed is going to be ignored because it does not suit a certain agenda? Very interesting.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 05:57:22 AM by Jean M » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #302 on: September 08, 2012, 05:52:47 AM »


Thanks. Patrick McGovern is the expert on the topic. I cite his work. He suspects that beer was probably discovered a lot earlier than the confirmed date at Godin Tepe ca. 3400-3000 B.C. See Brian Hayden, Neil Canuel and Jennifer Shanse, What Was Brewing in the Natufian? An Archaeological Assessment of Brewing Technology in the Epipaleolithic, Journal of Archaeological Method and Theory 2012.
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It has long been speculated that increasing demands for cereals for the purposes of brewing beer led to domestication in the Near Eastern Natufian cultures. While the question of whether cereals were being used in beer production is an important issue, it has remained a difficult proposition to test. We present some new perspectives on traditional brewing techniques relevant to this issue, on archaeological remains, and on the paleoecology of the Near East. Taken together, these observations provide more compelling circumstantial evidence that makes it increasingly likely that brewing of beer was an important aspect of feasting and society in the Late Epipaleolithic.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 05:55:32 AM by Jean M » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #303 on: September 08, 2012, 06:19:04 AM »

Jean you probably have these on the Portuguese pre-beaker copper age but this in case here they are

Thank you very much. I did not have them, but now they are in the Mini-Library. The Pereira thesis is interesting. The techniques used are the same as in the Balkans/Steppe. The arsenic-copper alloy appears there. The gilding by diffusion at high temperature I know I have seen something on, but need to ferret it out.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 06:26:51 AM by Jean M » Logged
Isidro
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« Reply #304 on: September 08, 2012, 06:29:39 AM »

Well, "derive culturally" is not the same a "same origin". I mean, if you say BB in Western Iberia growth out of Yamnaya influences, then I think few people will agree  

Really. We have anthropomorphic stelae all the way from the steppe to Iberia and you don't think that scholars are capable of recognising this very obvious piece of evidence.

Anthropomorphic Stelae from the steppe to Iberia does not exist.I think I did point out to you long time ago maybe years and more recently I recall MHammers questioning you  about that. Stelae in Iberia are no older than 1000BC (ie Tartessian ), both times your answers were eluding this seemingly easy riddle to answer, either this 3000BC Stelae have been found in Iberia or not.
I am totally  for fact checking  like you have made clear you are.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 06:32:36 AM by Isidro » Logged

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M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

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« Reply #305 on: September 08, 2012, 06:34:13 AM »

Anthropomorphic Stelae from the steppe to Iberia does not exist.I think I did point out to you long time ago maybe years and more recently I recall MHammers questioning you  about that Stelae in Iberia are no older than 1000BC (ie Tartessian ),

And I think I pointed out to you that the later warrior stelae in Iberia are not what I am talking about. There has been a lot of attention paid to these, while the Chalcolithic stelae don't get much of a mention by comparison. Do not let this blind you to the fact that there are two of them on display in the Portuguese national museum of archaeology. I gave a link to them. I referred to a paper which mentions these early stelae. Dating of course is a problem, but a number of the apparently early stelae have motifs similar to those at Sion. 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 06:44:08 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #306 on: September 08, 2012, 06:46:31 AM »

Marta Díaz-Guardamino, Iconografía, lugares y relaciones sociales: Reflexiones en torno a las estelas y estatuas-menhir atribuidas a la Edad del Bronce en la Península Ibérica, en Vilaça, Raquel (ed.) “Estelas e Estátuas-menir: da Pré à Protohistória”, IV Jornadas Raianas, Sabugal, 23-24 de Octubre de 2009.

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Teniendo en cuenta estas premisas, la elaboración de muchas de las estelas y estatuasmenhir incluidas en este trabajo puede ser atribuida con bastante seguridad a la Edad del Bronce (ca. 2200-850/825 AC), algunas a los inicios de la Edad del Hierro (ca. 850/825-700 AC), como han propuesto varios autores con anterioridad. Incluyen iconos que disponen de referentes en la Península Ibérica, especialmente armas metálicas, como puñales, alabardas y espadas, o fuera de ella, como escudos de cuero. Hay, sin embargo, un nutrido grupo de piezas que no incluyen armas en su iconografía. Parte de éstas incluyen otros iconos presentes en piezas con armas, como, por jemplo, los emblemas sub-rectangulares o estolas, por lo que es posible proponer para su  laboración una franja cronológica similar. Entre estos últimos ejemplares hay algunos
que presentan collares de varios semicírculos, por lo que se pueden considerar cronologías similares para los ejemplares que incluyen el grabado de este tipo de a dornos que, como hipótesis de trabajo, relacionamos con adornos realizados en oro, como las gargantillas de tiras o los torques. La mayoría de las estelas que incorporan tocado incluyen collares, por lo que también es posible atribuirles una cronología genérica de la Edad del Bronce (Barceló, 1989; Sevillano, 1991; Almagro-Gorbea, 1994; Díaz-Guardamino, 2010: 257-261), aunque algunos autores se inclinan por situar estas imágenes con tocado a partir de una fase un poco más avanzada del Bronce (Celestino, 2001: 254-260; Santos, 2009). Muchas de estas piezas sin armas han sido atribuidas al Calcolítico, lo que se ha basado esencialmente en la ausencia de representaciones de armas, en su posible carácter femenino, en el concepto de que lo femenino remite al mundo megalítico, en su ocasional proximidad a túmulos o estructuras atribuidas a esta época e, incluso, en paralelos formales con estelas o estatuas-menhir de otras zonas el Mediterráneo Occidental (Jorge, 1986; Bueno, 1990; Bueno y González, 1995; Jorge, 1999b; Bueno et al., 2005). Pero aún no se ha documentado ninguna de estas piezas en contextos estratigráficos que aporten referencias cronológicas, por lo que su cronología está abierta al debate, a no ser que se consideren como válidas las reflexiones  anteriores, que apuntarían, en todo caso, a una cronología genérica de la Edad del Bronce.

Since she does not point out the similarity of the ones with necklaces to those at Sion, I should do so. It's fortunate you mentioned the matter.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 06:50:55 AM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #307 on: September 08, 2012, 06:50:28 AM »

Jean you probably have these on the Portuguese pre-beaker copper age but this in case here they are

Thank you very much. I did not have them, but now they are in the Mini-Library. The Pereira thesis is interesting. The techniques used are the same as in the Balkans/Steppe. The arsenic-copper alloy appears there. The gilding by diffusion at high temperature I know I have seen something on, but need to ferret it out.

I would definately like to know more about the copper working.  One thing I never believed was independent discover in Iberia of copper working.  If European R1b is largely down to one family of metal specialists and traders who set up in pockets everywhere and only subsequently gained great power and expansion in each area then its not surprising how hard it has been to find the trail and pin them down.    
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« Reply #308 on: September 08, 2012, 07:00:24 AM »

@ Alan

I'm delighted to see scientific studies on the interesting material in Copper Age Portugal - both the metal and the people.

The isotope study does not necessarily show that the incoming metal workers formed only a tiny proportion of the communities in which they lived, since isotopes can only detect the first generation immigrants. The copper workers appear to have constructed their own settlements, some fortified, rather than settling as individuals among existing communities. But certainly the incomers would have trickled into Iberia, probably prospecting at first, and formed only a small proportion of its total population initially. They came with advantages though (the whole Secondary Products package) that would allow them to out-breed existing farmers.    

I find that I had already mentioned the arsenic-copper alloy in Zambujal from a published source, so I will stick with that. But I hadn't pointed out the connection to the arsenic-copper of the "circum-pontic" tradition.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 07:09:46 AM by Jean M » Logged
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #309 on: September 08, 2012, 07:55:13 AM »

Anthropomorphic Stelae from the steppe to Iberia does not exist.I think I did point out to you long time ago maybe years and more recently I recall MHammers questioning you  about that Stelae in Iberia are no older than 1000BC (ie Tartessian ),

And I think I pointed out to you that the later warrior stelae in Iberia are not what I am talking about. There has been a lot of attention paid to these, while the Chalcolithic stelae don't get much of a mention by comparison. Do not let this blind you to the fact that there are two of them on display in the Portuguese national museum of archaeology. I gave a link to them. I referred to a paper which mentions these early stelae. Dating of course is a problem, but a number of the apparently early stelae have motifs similar to those at Sion. 

Jean, as you pointed out, dating stelae is somewhat tricky. Try as it may, I have not come across a reliable radiocarbon dates for the Yamnaya stelae - just some web generalizations. Do you know of any?
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Jean M
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« Reply #310 on: September 08, 2012, 10:08:20 AM »

@ Rich Rocca

Radiocarbon dating is not possible on stone. Therefore dating of stelae is a complex business, partly done by context, and partly by stylistic comparison with those that can be dated on context. (The same is true of rock carving.) A number of the earliest anthropomorphic stelae (Kemi-Oba) were re-used as grave covers in graves that can be dated. So it can be deduced that they were earlier. Those that are in situ associated with graves can be dated from those grave contents (bone, wood etc) that can be radiocarbon dated. The example at Troy I stood outside one of the gates and can be dated by dates for the whole structure of Troy I.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 10:11:38 AM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #311 on: September 08, 2012, 10:08:43 AM »

@ Alan

I'm delighted to see scientific studies on the interesting material in Copper Age Portugal - both the metal and the people.

The isotope study does not necessarily show that the incoming metal workers formed only a tiny proportion of the communities in which they lived, since isotopes can only detect the first generation immigrants. The copper workers appear to have constructed their own settlements, some fortified, rather than settling as individuals among existing communities. But certainly the incomers would have trickled into Iberia, probably prospecting at first, and formed only a small proportion of its total population initially. They came with advantages though (the whole Secondary Products package) that would allow them to out-breed existing farmers.    

I find that I had already mentioned the arsenic-copper alloy in Zambujal from a published source, so I will stick with that. But I hadn't pointed out the connection to the arsenic-copper of the "circum-pontic" tradition.

I just wonder about the detail of linking this with R1b.  The explosion in R1b seems to fit best the beaker period as L11-P312-U152/L21/DF27 sequence seems to be incredibly fast but also strongly patterned suggesting thaat they happened during the most explosive beaker extension period c. 2600-2500BC.  That explosion in R1b and its patterning would not IMO fit a group who were confined for many centuries to Iberia or a trail west towards Iberia.  That seems to me to indicate that the group you are calling the Stelae People would have been of something from L11 and upstream.  Maybe L51* has some passing resemblance to a restricted exploritory pre-beaker phase or perhaps simply early beaker.  My tendency based on this is to think that the spread west of an ancestral pre-beaker line of copper workers should be traced by a trail of L23* or maybe L51*.  While the latter touches on Portugal its far from concentrated there.  Perhaps there was a very thin sprinkling of L23* or L51* people following the copper routes and among those related rival pockets struggling  for top position just one of them came to be the dominant dynasty.  However, I just still dont think the DNA pattern fits the idea that the dominant dynasty that dispersed in beaker times did so from Iberia.  Iberian DNA is dominanted by DF27 which cannot be ancestral to either L21 or U152.  The variance is also not as high there and there is not a very impressive remnant of L11* or L51*.  I still see the most likely position as the western Alps.  How it got there is another question but if L23* was just a thin sprinkling of copper working lineages then I suppose they should be derived from the main element of potentially ancestral L23* in eastern Europe.  
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Jean M
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« Reply #312 on: September 08, 2012, 11:10:28 AM »

For those still doubting the existence of anthropomorphic stelae in Iberia: http://www.springerimages.com/Images/SocialSciences/1-10.1007_s10816-009-9066-z-1
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Jean M
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« Reply #313 on: September 08, 2012, 11:35:38 AM »

@ Alan

I realise that it is a wrench to switch the neuron connections of decades. But I think we really have to accept that the Stelae People are genetically the same as the southern BB people. That is not evidence from aDNA, but it is only a matter of time before we get it, on present evidence. They had the same dental traits. The southern BB  looked after the graves of the Stelae people. There is archaeological continuity between them from Sion to Zambujal. The big changes that look like migrations happen:

1) When the Copper Age Stelae People arrive.
2) In the middle of the Bell Beaker period, when it looks like new BB people arrive from north of the Alps, who look different - broad-headed.

These second lot of BB people entered eastern Iberia to some extent, where they later seem to be the Celtiberians, but they did not spread all over Iberia. They did not replace all the previous Stelae People.

They do not explain the R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27 in Iberia. The distribution of R1b subclades in Iberia is not the same as that in France and the British Isles. We don't have to see all BB as exactly the same genetically. It is not all L21. In the British Isles it may well be dominated by L21, because most of the BB in the Isles seems to have come from the Rhine. But Iberia is not dominated by L21.  
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 11:42:45 AM by Jean M » Logged
princenuadha
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« Reply #314 on: September 08, 2012, 12:38:11 PM »

@ Alan

I realise that it is a wrench to switch the neuron connections of decades. But I think we really have to accept that the Stelae People are genetically the same as the southern BB people. That is not evidence from aDNA, but it is only a matter of time before we get it, on present evidence. They had the same dental traits. The southern BB  looked after the graves of the Stelae people. There is archaeological continuity between them from Sion to Zambujal. The big changes that look like migrations happen:

1) When the Copper Age Stelae People arrive.
2) In the middle of the Bell Beaker period, when it looks like new BB people arrive from north of the Alps, who look different - broad-headed.

These second lot of BB people entered eastern Iberia to some extent, where they later seem to be the Celtiberians, but they did not spread all over Iberia. They did not replace all the previous Stelae People.

They do not explain the R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27 in Iberia. The distribution of R1b subclades in Iberia is not the same as that in France and the British Isles. We don't have to see all BB as exactly the same genetically. It is not all L21. In the British Isles it may well be dominated by L21, because most of the BB in the Isles seems to have come from the Rhine. But Iberia is not dominated by L21.  

We are getting tantilizingly close to understanding the genetic past.

The following paper/post concludes that a "north european" element entered iberia in a time frame consistent with bell beakers.

 http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/estimating-admixture-proportions-and.html?m=1
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #315 on: September 08, 2012, 01:01:31 PM »

@ Alan

I realise that it is a wrench to switch the neuron connections of decades. But I think we really have to accept that the Stelae People are genetically the same as the southern BB people. That is not evidence from aDNA, but it is only a matter of time before we get it, on present evidence. They had the same dental traits. The southern BB  looked after the graves of the Stelae people. There is archaeological continuity between them from Sion to Zambujal. The big changes that look like migrations happen:

1) When the Copper Age Stelae People arrive.
2) In the middle of the Bell Beaker period, when it looks like new BB people arrive from north of the Alps, who look different - broad-headed.

These second lot of BB people entered eastern Iberia to some extent, where they later seem to be the Celtiberians, but they did not spread all over Iberia. They did not replace all the previous Stelae People.

They do not explain the R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27 in Iberia. The distribution of R1b subclades in Iberia is not the same as that in France and the British Isles. We don't have to see all BB as exactly the same genetically. It is not all L21. In the British Isles it may well be dominated by L21, because most of the BB in the Isles seems to have come from the Rhine. But Iberia is not dominated by L21.  

Jean I think we are a bit at crossed purposes.  I have no problem with the idea that there were small but important groups of copper age people working there way west as far as Iberia.  I dont have a problem with the idea of a chain of these small groups linking Iberia, southern France and the Alps in the pre-beaker phase.  I also dont have a problem with the concept that they stayed in touch and either pots etc or people spread from the west end of that pre-beaker network as far as say SE France and NW Italy, forming the zone of early beaker dates as defined by M&W.  I am not 100% sure its the last twist in the tail but I am happy to work with that as the latest anlaysis.   I am also happy with the idea that there was a second wave of beakers with the distinct type among them from a more central European source. 

Where I am (I think) differing from you is that I am not convinced the stelae people or the early phase beaker people in Iberia and along the west Med. were R1b.  What I think is an alternative is that R1b only entered the beaker culture in the secondary/middle phase of 'new' beaker people giving rise to the full beaker package and I believe that R1b only entered Iberia in that secondary period (i.e. the stelae people and the earliest beaker users were not R1b or at least not P312.  I tend to think of it more of a case of non-beaker central European people taking on some beaker ideas than early beaker people from the south-west taking on central European ideas but some sort of hybriding of cultures happened anyway and it may have been complex.  Clearly the location where the 'new' beaker people arose had to be in central Europe but close enough for them to have contact with the early beaker groups. 
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« Reply #316 on: September 08, 2012, 01:24:48 PM »

Where I am (I think) differing from you is that I am not convinced the stelae people or the early phase beaker people in Iberia and along the west Med. were R1b.  What I think is an alternative is that R1b only entered the beaker culture in the secondary/middle phase of 'new' beaker people giving rise to the full beaker package

Yes I know what you think Alan. And I am telling you that it does not add up. The Eastern Bell Beaker types spread L21. There is a lot of R1b in Iberia that is not L21. Iberia is genetically different from the British Isles and France. That would not be the case if they all were populated by the same wave of people - the Eastern BB.

It is not just a question of genetics. Linguistically the Stelae People can be linked to Proto-Italo-Celtic. The Eastern BB developed Celtic. There were remnants of Proto-Italo-Celtic in western Iberia (Lusitanian), while Celtiberian was a stage further towards Celtic.  

« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 01:29:10 PM by Jean M » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #317 on: September 08, 2012, 01:52:15 PM »

It is not just a question of genetics. Linguistically the Stelae People can be linked to Proto-Italo-Celtic. The Eastern BB developed Celtic. There were remnants of Proto-Italo-Celtic in western Iberia (Lusitanian), while Celtiberian was a stage further towards Celtic.  

Incredible! But Italic-Celtic languages were spoken in Italy, and from Italy in Iberia (Lusitanian, linked with Ligurian).
In the map of the stelae peoples posted above, out of 13 places 7 (comprising Haut Provence) were in Italy or nearby. Only 2 in the East, and those 2 would have peopled all Western Europe!

The same reasoning is that of Dienekes’. When Oetzi was going to be examined and I said he would have been linked with Italians, he said that he would have been linked with Middle Eastern people. Now that it is clear that he is linked with Sardinians above all, he says that Sardinians came recently from East (Caucasus, Middle East or whichever from East). But he says these lies with many caveats, but you don’t know either these.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 06:39:13 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #318 on: September 08, 2012, 02:10:42 PM »


Where I am (I think) differing from you is that I am not convinced the stelae people or the early phase beaker people in Iberia and along the west Med. were R1b.  What I think is an alternative is that R1b only entered the beaker culture in the secondary/middle phase of 'new' beaker people giving rise to the full beaker package and I believe that R1b only entered Iberia in that secondary period (i.e. the stelae people and the earliest beaker users were not R1b or at least not P312.  I tend to think of it more of a case of non-beaker central European people taking on some beaker ideas than early beaker people from the south-west taking on central European ideas but some sort of hybriding of cultures happened anyway and it may have been complex.  Clearly the location where the 'new' beaker people arose had to be in central Europe but close enough for them to have contact with the early beaker groups. 

Alan, is there a reason why you don't think they were R1b? The distribution of R1b makes little sense when considering just the Begleitkeramik group and only some sense when considering all Bell Beaker groups. It is only when pre-BB Copper Age groups + all Bell Beaker groups are taken into account that the R1b distribution makes sense.
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« Reply #319 on: September 08, 2012, 02:24:53 PM »

For those still doubting the existence of anthropomorphic stelae in Iberia: http://www.springerimages.com/Images/SocialSciences/1-10.1007_s10816-009-9066-z-1

Interesting maps. However they appear to be a Meditteranean and Atlantic route rather than an overland route. It seemed that metal workers also favored maritime routes as they could spot the ore seams from coastal navigation. Do we know of a connection between Bell Beakers an Stelae People.

http://www.springerimages.com/Images/SocialSciences/1-10.1007_s10816-009-9066-z-0
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« Reply #320 on: September 08, 2012, 03:21:06 PM »

By the way, the new paper Patterson et al., Ancient Admixture in Human History, Genetics, finds evidence of "Substantial population movement into Spain occurring around the same time as the archaeologically attested Bell-Beaker phenomenon". I'm still reading it.  

Below is what Patterson has to say about Bell Beakers. This indicates that after an initial expansion out of Iberia there was a reverse flow back to Iberia. The timing is 3600 +/- 400 BP.

Couple this with yesterday's three papers from Tyler-Smith, Wei and Xue indicating an "extreme" expansion of R1b into Europe ~5 -10 KYA.

If the R1b expansion was associated with the Neolithic expansion out of Anatolia and P312 or L11 expansion with the Bell Beaker expansion out of Iberia we are beginning to see a pattern emerge.

Paterson uses a (SNP) array consisting of 629,433 sites designed for Population Genetics.
Tyler-Smith used 18,700 SNPs on the Y Chrosomone from the 1000 Genome project and 5,865 from the Complete Genomics data set.

"We applied rolloff to Spain using Ireland and Sardinians as the reference populations. In Fig- ure 7c we show a rolloff curve. The rolloff of signed LD out to about 2 cM is clear, and gives an admixture age of 3600 ± 400 B.P. (the standard error was computed using a block jackknife with a block size of 5cM).
We have detected here a signal of gene flow from northern Europe into Spain around 2000 B.C. We discuss a likely interpretation. At this time there was a characteristic pottery termed ‘bell-beakers’ believed to correspond to a population spread across Iberia and northern Europe. We hypothesize that we are seeing here a genetic signal of the ‘Bell-Beaker culture’ (HARRISON, 1980). Initial cultural flow of the Bell-Beakers appears to have been from South to North, but the full story may be complex. Indeed one hypothesis is that after an initial expansion from Iberia there was a reverse flow back to Iberia (CZEBRESZUK, 2003); this ‘reflux’ model is broadly concordant with our genetic results, and if this is the correct explanation it suggests that this reverse flow may have been accompanied by substantial population movement."
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« Reply #321 on: September 08, 2012, 03:29:45 PM »

Do we know of a connection between Bell Beakers an Stelae People.

Have you not read any of my posts on this thread? Or my page on Bell Beaker when it was online? Would you like me to send you a copy?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 03:41:59 PM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #322 on: September 08, 2012, 03:30:38 PM »

@ Alan

I realise that it is a wrench to switch the neuron connections of decades. But I think we really have to accept that the Stelae People are genetically the same as the southern BB people. That is not evidence from aDNA, but it is only a matter of time before we get it, on present evidence. They had the same dental traits. The southern BB  looked after the graves of the Stelae people. There is archaeological continuity between them from Sion to Zambujal. The big changes that look like migrations happen:

1) When the Copper Age Stelae People arrive.
2) In the middle of the Bell Beaker period, when it looks like new BB people arrive from north of the Alps, who look different - broad-headed.

These second lot of BB people entered eastern Iberia to some extent, where they later seem to be the Celtiberians, but they did not spread all over Iberia. They did not replace all the previous Stelae People.

They do not explain the R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27 in Iberia. The distribution of R1b subclades in Iberia is not the same as that in France and the British Isles. We don't have to see all BB as exactly the same genetically. It is not all L21. In the British Isles it may well be dominated by L21, because most of the BB in the Isles seems to have come from the Rhine. But Iberia is not dominated by L21.  

We are getting tantilizingly close to understanding the genetic past.

The following paper/post concludes that a "north european" element entered iberia in a time frame consistent with bell beakers.

 http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/estimating-admixture-proportions-and.html?m=1

I personally doubt that in Iberia the farmers and hunters lived side by side as late as 2-3000BC.  Actually Dienekes is reviving an old idea about the late Neolithic or copper age being a result of the final absorbtion of hunters with farmers.  The idea was raised in an isles context too.  However, there just isnt any evidence for the a lingering hunter group as late as 2-3000BC in the isles or Iberia.  If I recall correctly the hunters in the area sampled were much older and likely left Iberia when
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« Reply #323 on: September 08, 2012, 03:52:16 PM »

Couple this with yesterday's three papers from Tyler-Smith, Wei and Xue indicating an "extreme" expansion of R1b into Europe ~5 -10 KYA.

The initial dating by Tyler-Smith and colleagues of said expansion was 5-8 KYA = c. 4500 BC.* I dare say it occurred to him that this did not fit the Neolithic as he expected it to and the date has been revised upwards to c. 5500 BC. That still does not fit the European Neolithic (7000 BC +) very well. Plus no R1b has turned up in Neolithic remains. G2a is dominant.

Other geneticists have realised what this means. They published recently in Trends in Genetics. It means that R1b spread across Europe post-Neolithic. I spoke to one of the authors recently. He confirmed his view that R1b did not arrive in western Europe until the Copper/Bronze Age.    

*Barbara Arredi, Estella S. Poloni and Chris Tyler Smith, The Peopling of Europe, Chapter 13 in  Michael Crawford (Ed): Anthropological Genetics, Theory, Methods and Applications; Cambridge University Press 2007.
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« Reply #324 on: September 08, 2012, 04:00:02 PM »

@ Alan

I realise that it is a wrench to switch the neuron connections of decades. But I think we really have to accept that the Stelae People are genetically the same as the southern BB people. That is not evidence from aDNA, but it is only a matter of time before we get it, on present evidence. They had the same dental traits. The southern BB  looked after the graves of the Stelae people. There is archaeological continuity between them from Sion to Zambujal. The big changes that look like migrations happen:

1) When the Copper Age Stelae People arrive.
2) In the middle of the Bell Beaker period, when it looks like new BB people arrive from north of the Alps, who look different - broad-headed.

These second lot of BB people entered eastern Iberia to some extent, where they later seem to be the Celtiberians, but they did not spread all over Iberia. They did not replace all the previous Stelae People.

They do not explain the R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27 in Iberia. The distribution of R1b subclades in Iberia is not the same as that in France and the British Isles. We don't have to see all BB as exactly the same genetically. It is not all L21. In the British Isles it may well be dominated by L21, because most of the BB in the Isles seems to have come from the Rhine. But Iberia is not dominated by L21.  

We are getting tantilizingly close to understanding the genetic past.

The following paper/post concludes that a "north european" element entered iberia in a time frame consistent with bell beakers.

 http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/estimating-admixture-proportions-and.html?m=1

I personally doubt that in Iberia the farmers and hunters lived side by side as late as 2-3000BC.  Actually Dienekes is reviving an old idea about the late Neolithic or copper age being a result of the final absorbtion of hunters with farmers.  The idea was raised in an isles context too.  However, there just isnt any evidence for the a lingering hunter group as late as 2-3000BC in the isles or Iberia.  If I recall correctly the hunters in the area sampled were much older and likely left Iberia when

Here is what Dienekes has to say on the Paper and Bell Beakers. As I am mainly interested in Celtic Migrations, I would assume that the Bell Beakers were connected to the Celtic expansion from Iberia. As he says, the plot thickens.

"Another application of the new methodology is to Spain, where many analyses (including some of the Dodecad Project) have shown that the population has both a "Mediterranean" and a "North European" component. The authors date this admixture to 3,600 +/- 400 BP, and they associate it with Bell Beaker-related backflow into Iberia. However, a newer study that probably appeared when this paper was in review showed that Mesolithic Iberians were also North European-like. So, one probably does not need a special explanation for their case: the Neolithic/Mesolithic mix that occurred in Scandinavia, probably also occurred in Spain.  The 3.6ky signal for North European/Sardinian-like admixture in Spain is similar to the 4.15ky signal of North Eurasian/Sardinian  admixture in northern Europe. Both cases may reflect the same event. The authors point out that these dates are inconsistent with Visigoths and the like contributing a major portion of north European ancestry to Spain, consistent with the Ralph and Coop (2012) study. It might even be tempting to ascribe the small ~0.5k difference in the age of the signal to this later migration, or even to Celtic-related migrations, since the Celts -based on phenotypic descriptions by ancient authors- belonged to a substantial degree to the northern Europeoids.

It will certainly be interesting to study the Beaker folk's autosomal DNA in relation to European prehistory, as R1b makes its first appearance with them on the European scene. Were they the people who brought North European/East Eurasian-like ancestry into Iberia, or did the pre-existing I folk already possess it? As more ancient DNA is sampled, so will our ideas about the sequence of events be better informed. (If Iron Age people from Bulgaria were also like Sardinians, then, as they say, the plot thickens.)"
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