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Author Topic: Is there an Irish VI?  (Read 2095 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: February 22, 2012, 04:57:39 PM »

Maybe there is another good sized Irish brother in the Z253 family...

Is there an Irish Type VI haplotype that will rival Irish III in size and outpace Irish IV?

As I've mentioned, it appears that 253-1117 is a very good size rival to L226/1189-T3 (Irish III) under Z253 and will be bigger than 1310-T4 (Irish IV)

... but there is another cluster that has a couple of Z253* people that we've two large families in.  I have labeled it 253-1518. It's looks very solid and in this case I am surprised that McEwan or Nordtvedt didn't find it in their R1b discovery work. Maybe not enough folks had tested back then.

The 1518 STR signature:  392>=15 448<=18 557>=17 444>=13 464=$,16,16,$ (607<=14)

Once again, it is interesting that low numbers in some of the 464 slots are also important to L226/1189-T3 and to 253-1117. It seems like the more "Irish" of these Irish Types are III, V and VI (if those terms could be used) where as the IV guys have more continentals mixed in. The IV guys appear to be the early branch as they do NOT have low 464 values.

f38793   Cramer   zzPredicted   Ireland
f47158   Hensley   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f90442   Law   R-L21/Z253   Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
fN43805   Lenares   R-L21   Spain
f43039   McBride   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f132876   McClure   R-L21/Z253   Ireland
f126088   McClure   R-L21   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Donegal, Raphoe
fN26401   McCollough   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f13809   McCracken   zzPredicted   Ireland
f29521   McCracken   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f85491   McCracken   zzPredicted   Scotland
f17208   McCracken   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f28460   McCracken   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin
f35786   McCracken   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin
f95537   McCracken   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f119758   McCracken   zzPredicted   Ireland
f92285   McCracken   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f14749   McCracken   R-L21   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Newtown Limavady
f13619   McCracken   zzPredicted   Scotland
f194421   McCracken   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f96197   McCracken   zzPredicted   Scotland
f173707   McCracken   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f50748   McCracken   zzPredicted   Scotland
f17263   McCracken   zzPredicted   Scotland
f140449   McCracken   zzPredicted   Ireland
f96582   McCracken   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f26468   McCracken   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
y6YSEA   McDonald   R-L21   Scotland
f34308   McMaster   zzPredicted   UK
f113186   McMeekin   zzPredicted   Ireland
f195594   McMurray   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
f94662   Mitchell   R-L21/Z253*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Killymallaght
f103494   Robinson   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin
f149770   zzzUnknown   R-L21/Z253*   Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire, Grennock
f107182   zzzUnknown   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl25   McClure   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl38   McClure   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl15   McClure   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl1   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl6   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland, Ulster
fzMcCl63   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl78   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl70   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Donegal
fzMcCl89   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl2   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl22   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland, Ulster
fzMcCl30   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl72   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland, Ulster
fzMcCl73   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl4   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl95   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland
fzMcCl80   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland
fzMcCl98   zzzUnk(McClure)   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl101   McClure   zzPredicted   Scotland
fzMcCl8   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl29   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland
fzMcCl33   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland
fzMcCl96   zzzUnk(McClure)   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl3   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl109   zzzUnk(McClure)   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl103   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl68   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl21   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl81   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl74   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl31   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl19   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl100   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Donegal, Findrum
fzMcCl11   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl43   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland
fzMcCl49   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl50   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl94   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl42   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl7   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl67   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl104   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl64   zzzUnk(McClure)   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl86   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl20   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl92   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland
fzMcCl18   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl47   McClure   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
fzMcCl48   McClure   zzPredicted   Ireland, Ulster
fzMcCl105   zzzUnk(McClure)   zzPredicted   zzzUnkOrigin
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 05:00:22 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 06:50:26 PM »

Mike-actually that 'Irish VI' list is overwhelmingly west coast Scottish, not Irish (although naturally including Ulster people of Scots descent).  In fact the selection of names is very typical Ulster Scottish descent names and reads like a telephone directory from an Ulster village.  The only name that I think is native Irish in this list is McMeekin.

I think Irish IV is also badly named because it has a predominance of non-native Irish names.  
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 06:59:37 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 09:47:05 PM »

Mike-actually that 'Irish VI' list is overwhelmingly west coast Scottish, not Irish (although naturally including Ulster people of Scots descent).  In fact the selection of names is very typical Ulster Scottish descent names and reads like a telephone directory from an Ulster village.  The only name that I think is native Irish in this list is McMeekin.
I'm just joking about the names to get a little interest going. To me they are 253-1117 and 253-1518 which is what they should be until someone can really tie down their origin and history.

... but that does bring a different topic.  I thought the Scots were Irish.  Perhaps I'm naive enough to think Scotti, Scots, whatever.... they are all Gaelic...  which is really what I equate to Irish.
I think Irish IV is also badly named because it has a predominance of non-native Irish names. 
Agreed. I don't like all of these "ethnic origin" names based on assumptions.  I suppose even though I think Ken N is great, I disagree with a label like "ultra-Norse."

The one that really gets me is the "Scots modal" which some think is old Gaelic while Ethnoancestry use to think it was "Pictish".
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 09:51:02 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2012, 06:52:27 PM »

Mike-actually that 'Irish VI' list is overwhelmingly west coast Scottish, not Irish (although naturally including Ulster people of Scots descent).  In fact the selection of names is very typical Ulster Scottish descent names and reads like a telephone directory from an Ulster village.  The only name that I think is native Irish in this list is McMeekin.
I'm just joking about the names to get a little interest going. To me they are 253-1117 and 253-1518 which is what they should be until someone can really tie down their origin and history.

... but that does bring a different topic.  I thought the Scots were Irish.  Perhaps I'm naive enough to think Scotti, Scots, whatever.... they are all Gaelic...  which is really what I equate to Irish.
I think Irish IV is also badly named because it has a predominance of non-native Irish names. 
Agreed. I don't like all of these "ethnic origin" names based on assumptions.  I suppose even though I think Ken N is great, I disagree with a label like "ultra-Norse."

The one that really gets me is the "Scots modal" which some think is old Gaelic while Ethnoancestry use to think it was "Pictish".

I have never come to a conclusion about Scots modal.  In distribution terms its actually a rather good fit for Gaels and a very poor one for the main heartlands of the Picts.  Its clearly a lineage that took off in Scotland wherever it originated but I dont think its at all conclusive where it originated.  The reality is that the Irish part of Dalraida has experienced almost total population replacement over the last 800 years and no Dalriadan lineages/surnames survive that are native to Ireland.  So, it could have occurred in Ireland but the 'homeland' has since been wiped out. I just dont know.  However, I think a large questionmark has to remain over the idea that it is Pictish. I personally think its more likely to be linked to the Dalriadan royal lineages. 
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Warrior1
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 08:02:20 PM »

Replying to an older post but YES, finally another thinker. The Scots Modal is NOT pictish, it is more than likely Iriah/Dalriadan Scot. And for the dozenth time, I know this because I am Pictish.

Cheers.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 12:11:18 AM »

Replying to an older post but YES, finally another thinker. The Scots Modal is NOT pictish, it is more than likely Iriah/Dalriadan Scot. And for the dozenth time, I know this because I am Pictish.

You may be right, but do you have any reasoning or is it just your Pictish intuition?
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 02:18:26 AM »

McClure and its broader MacLeod clan and McCracken are Scots Gaelic, probably Dal Riadian originating in Ireland. Mc Murray, McMaster, McMeekin are Irish and Scots Gaelic.

McClure is a surname with several origins. One origin of the name is from the Scottish Gaelic MacGilleUidhir, and Irish Mac Giolla Uidhir, which probably mean "son of the sallow lad". Another origin of the name is from the Scottish Gaelic MacGilleDheòradha, and the Irish Mac Giolla Dheóradha, which mean "son of the servant of the pilgrim".[1] In the Scottish clan system, McClures are a sept of Clan MacLeod of Harris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McClure_(surname)

Clan MacLeod ˌklæn mɨˈklaʊd/; Scottish Gaelic: Clann Mhic Leòid; Scottish Gaelic pronunciation: [ˈkʰl̪ˠan̪ˠ viʰkʲ ˈlɔːtʲ]) is a Highland Scottish clan associated with the Isle of Skye. There are two main branches of the clan: the Macleods of Harris and Dunvegan, whose chief is Macleod of Macleod, are known in Gaelic as Sìol Tormoid ("seed of Tormod"); the Macleods of Lewis, whose chief is Macleod of The Lewes, are known in Gaelic as Sìol Torcaill ("seed of Torcall"). Both branches claim descent from Leòd, who lived in the 13th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacLeod

McCracken is a surname of Northern Irish and Scottish (from Galloway) origin.[1] It is an Anglicisation of the Gaelic Mac Reachtain which is an Ulster variant of the Gaelic Mac Neachtain (commonly Anglicised as McNaugton).[1] McCracken is also considered a sept of the Scottish clan Clan McNaughten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCracken_(surname)




« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 02:24:12 AM by Heber » Logged

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