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Author Topic: Ethnic Migration and Population - Colonial Americans  (Read 8150 times)
Mark Jost
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« on: May 04, 2012, 02:20:22 PM »

Over on 23andme the though is if an American has a very larger number of matches of 900 or more, it points to a solid Colonial American lineage. This holds up with four of my half maternal siblings with NW German lineage range from 500-600 matches. I have over 1020 matches not counting my siblings and a strong Carolina's eastward Tennessee and Alabama number of 23andme matches.

As I understand only Ashkenazi get more RF cousins than colonials.

https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/9191/

I posted a link that discussed:

"Ethnic Migration and Population before 1699"*

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nycoloni/ethmigclem.html

which discussed that 'Ninety percent of the population of the American colonies in 1699 were persons of English birth or parentage'.

"... group of seventy-five original planters in West Jersey who were given deeds by royal grant to property between the years 1670 and 1690. It is interesting to note that of the seventy-five, twenty-seven of the sixty three came hither from Yorkshire, twenty-three from London, seven from Surrey and six from Sheffield. "

I checked the YDNA map of Eastern USA and the L21's (and M269's) have a very strong  presence as compared to other Haplogroups.

My closest YDNA MDKA is from NE Georgia > Alabama and my second is from IOM. I have several UK 3-4 cousin 23andme matches who are have been in the UK for generations.

Such migrations by mostly English R1b2a2 guys to the Americas has influenced the early American culture.


*An excerpt from the Introduction of American Marriage Records Before 1699

https://my.familytreedna.com/snp-map.aspx

With the strong English presence in early America has  extended the NW Euro dominance in YDNA testing.

MJost
 
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razyn
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2012, 02:34:31 PM »

Well, yes, but the seventy-five "original" English grantees in W. Jersey were met by several hundred somewhat more original Swedish, Finnish, Dutch, and misc. other NW Europeans who had been there since the 1630s.  And were followed by a great many from the Isles who weren't English, either.

All I mean to imply is that New England and Virginia are much better examples of what you are talking about than W. Jersey (or E. Jersey, PA, DE, NY).
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2012, 03:00:04 PM »

That was mentioned in the excerpt. But the sheer number of English was the main point I felt.

The main segment of English was 'the Virginians migrated into the Carolinas and in some cases to Maryland and Pennsylvania, where they intermarried with the Dutch and English from New Jersey and the North. But the genuine Virginia movement of population was always Westward, even to this day, first to what was to become Kentucky and Tennessee and thence on to the Missouri River and the Southwest in later periods of time.'
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2012, 03:04:30 PM »

Over on 23andme the though is if an American has a very larger number of matches of 900 or more, it points to a solid Colonial American lineage. This holds up with four of my half maternal siblings with NW German lineage range from 500-600 matches. I have over 1020 matches not counting my siblings and a strong Carolina's eastward Tennessee and Alabama number of 23andme matches.

As I understand only Ashkenazi get more RF cousins than colonials.

https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/9191/

I posted a link that discussed:

"Ethnic Migration and Population before 1699"*

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nycoloni/ethmigclem.html

which discussed that 'Ninety percent of the population of the American colonies in 1699 were persons of English birth or parentage'.

"... group of seventy-five original planters in West Jersey who were given deeds by royal grant to property between the years 1670 and 1690. It is interesting to note that of the seventy-five, twenty-seven of the sixty three came hither from Yorkshire, twenty-three from London, seven from Surrey and six from Sheffield. "

I checked the YDNA map of Eastern USA and the L21's (and M269's) have a very strong  presence as compared to other Haplogroups.

My closest YDNA MDKA is from NE Georgia > Alabama and my second is from IOM. I have several UK 3-4 cousin 23andme matches who are have been in the UK for generations.

Such migrations by mostly English R1b2a2 guys to the Americas has influenced the early American culture.


*An excerpt from the Introduction of American Marriage Records Before 1699

https://my.familytreedna.com/snp-map.aspx

With the strong English presence in early America has  extended the NW Euro dominance in YDNA testing.

MJost
 
I would mention that a few scots were involved also!..My ggg..ggf brought two boatloads of covenanters to cheasapeake bay and north carolina in 1684.  And, of course, by then the French were all over north america. My ancestor enjoyed their hospitality in a Montreal prison for a year and a half.  He made the mistake of leading an expedition for the british to open up the fur trade in the great lakes.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 03:52:41 PM »

If any group had a mass migration to the Carolinas it was the Scots-Irish. Most followed the Wagon trail from Frederick County down into the Carolinas. My line being one such family.

I'm sure I'd probably have a high number of Colonial matches as well.. As I've yet to find a family line that hasn't been here for a very long time.

Another interesting point, even though I have a few English lines, some of these were relatively recent migrants into England before they left for the Colonies. One of these lines being my Hargis line, which apparently originated in Denmark. So, I'm quite curious as to how much of the English dna were talking about was actually English. England was a popular port to set sail from at the time. 
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 04:44:22 PM »

If any group had a mass migration to the Carolinas it was the Scots-Irish. Most followed the Wagon trail from Frederick County down into the Carolinas. My line being one such family.

I'm sure I'd probably have a high number of Colonial matches as well.. As I've yet to find a family line that hasn't been here for a very long time.

Another interesting point, even though I have a few English lines, some of these were relatively recent migrants into England before they left for the Colonies. One of these lines being my Hargis line, which apparently originated in Denmark. So, I'm quite curious as to how much of the English dna were talking about was actually English. England was a popular port to set sail from at the time. 

Interesting how many English and some Scottish came through Virginia and went west and south as per:
https://www.familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Virginia_Emigration_and_Immigration

And there is much documentation on English immigrants to Virginia and is available as per:
http://www.genealogy.com/503facd.html

Recently a SPA Dual Genome chart was created by the EuroBGA group which split up everyones genome into two plots. I am US34 and I am on either side of the British cluster area, at Northwest and Southeastern sections. The entire plotting parallels the European map layout. I am not circled in a color but US34 can be found easy.

I am still looking for a closer YDNA matches in the US and England side of the pond that are from English and Wales, which I suspect are transplants from IOM in the 1600-1700's.

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Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2012, 02:30:20 PM »

If any group had a mass migration to the Carolinas it was the Scots-Irish. Most followed the Wagon trail from Frederick County down into the Carolinas. My line being one such family.

I'm sure I'd probably have a high number of Colonial matches as well.. As I've yet to find a family line that hasn't been here for a very long time.

Another interesting point, even though I have a few English lines, some of these were relatively recent migrants into England before they left for the Colonies. One of these lines being my Hargis line, which apparently originated in Denmark. So, I'm quite curious as to how much of the English dna were talking about was actually English. England was a popular port to set sail from at the time.  

Interesting how many English and some Scottish came through Virginia and went west and south as per:
https://www.familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Virginia_Emigration_and_Immigration

And there is much documentation on English immigrants to Virginia and is available as per:
http://www.genealogy.com/503facd.html

Recently a SPA Dual Genome chart was created by the EuroBGA group which split up everyones genome into two plots. I am US34 ....

I'm very fortunate that on one of my lineages the immigrant ancestor from Ulster was a scholar (and preacher) and wrote down quite a bit.

It's very easy to explain why Scots-Irish immigrants of time right before the Revolutionary War ended up in places like Virginia, the Carolinas and what is now Tennessee.

We can thank the French and Indian War (with the British) and the resulting Royal Proclamation of 1763.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Proclamation_of_1763
Quote
The proclamation created a boundary line (often called the proclamation line) between the British colonies on the Atlantic coast and American Indian lands (called the Indian Reserve) west of the Appalachian Mountains.

Essentially, the British told the Native Americans they had everything west of the colonies. Unfortunately for the Native Americans, the Scots-Irish (being economically squeezed in the Ulster Plantation) didn't get the message and this was the easiest place to go to get good land.

I think this can be instructive for explaining prehistorical migrations as well.  A new wave of agriculturalist settlers bypassed an earlier wave of settlers and found land easier to come by in hunter-gatherer territories. The Appalachians provided a natural and then political boundary for the first wave of agriculturalists. This reminds me of Cunliffe's description of the Cardial Wares colonizing advance in Europe. It's almost like a leap-frogging effect.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2012, 05:29:17 PM »

I think most of the native Irish testers have over 1000 matches as well. I'm first generation Irish American on one side and second on the other and I have over 1000 matches. The second generation side is Scots-Irish. I'm also 25% French-Canadian, but can't seem to find any of them (or from France) in my matches.

Actually, I don't think I've ever found a match that I could pin-point.
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Jdean
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2012, 06:21:35 PM »

I think most of the native Irish testers have over 1000 matches as well. I'm first generation Irish American on one side and second on the other and I have over 1000 matches. The second generation side is Scots-Irish. I'm also 25% French-Canadian, but can't seem to find any of them (or from France) in my matches.

Actually, I don't think I've ever found a match that I could pin-point.

Would 131 be considered quite low then ?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2012, 06:41:21 PM »


[/quote]

Would 131 be considered quite low then ?
[/quote]

On 23andMe?! Yes, I'd say very low!
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Jdean
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 06:48:33 PM »

If any group had a mass migration to the Carolinas it was the Scots-Irish. Most followed the Wagon trail from Frederick County down into the Carolinas. My line being one such family.

I'm sure I'd probably have a high number of Colonial matches as well.. As I've yet to find a family line that hasn't been here for a very long time.

Another interesting point, even though I have a few English lines, some of these were relatively recent migrants into England before they left for the Colonies. One of these lines being my Hargis line, which apparently originated in Denmark. So, I'm quite curious as to how much of the English dna were talking about was actually English. England was a popular port to set sail from at the time.  

I have S. Carolina, Tennessee, and Ohio surname matches.

The S, Carolinas can comfortably trace there line into the 18th C. and both the others seem reasonably likely to connect into W. Virginia Stedmans who looked to have been living in or around that area for a while before that.

Stedmans were the largest family name working in the Harpers Ferry Armory and until I came alone (Welsh with an English Y line) were always assumed to be of Scottish decent.

However until I can find one person with an absolute rock solid (it's got to be rock solid as I have now learnt) line back to W. Virginia who is willing to take a (free) cheek swab I have apparently not proved anything yet :)

Conversely there was a Pennsylvanian Stedman family who came from Scotland but fought on the side of the English, one of them wrote a book about it.
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Jdean
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 06:51:09 PM »


Would 131 be considered quite low then ?

On 23andMe?! Yes, I'd say very low!

No I was talking about my Family Finder results, they probably lag behind 23 & Me I suppose.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2012, 06:59:45 PM »


Would 131 be considered quite low then ?

On 23andMe?! Yes, I'd say very low!

No I was talking about my Family Finder results, they probably lag behind 23 & Me I suppose.

I only have 150 on Family Finder myself.
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Jdean
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2012, 07:03:39 PM »


I only have 150 on Family Finder myself.

131 could be on the high side then ?
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2012, 07:39:12 PM »

I have 255 Family Finder matches. I have a number of lines that go back to the early days of British settlement in North America, and one that goes back to the early days of Dutch settlement in New Netherland (New York). Another line was founded by a 17th century French Huguenot settler in Essex County, Virginia (not far from where I live - I found and photographed his grave last summer, as a matter of fact).

I'm hoping FTDNA's current Family Finder sale nets me some more matches.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 11:36:10 PM »

I have over 240+ ftdna family finder matches. FtDNA is where my English matches are coming from.
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2012, 07:53:02 PM »

I have 255 Family Finder matches. I have a number of lines that go back to the early days of British settlement in North America, and one that goes back to the early days of Dutch settlement in New Netherland (New York). Another line was founded by a 17th century French Huguenot settler in Essex County, Virginia (not far from where I live - I found and photographed his grave last summer, as a matter of fact).

I'm hoping FTDNA's current Family Finder sale nets me some more matches.


Make that 262 FF matches as of this evening: I just picked up 7 new ones, four of them pretty good.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2012, 09:20:34 PM »

I just went to 248 now adding two new 4th cousins.... you still got me beat!

I send you my list of 3rd's
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Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2012, 10:07:34 AM »

I just went to 248 now adding two new 4th cousins.... you still got me beat!

I now have 1027 Family Finder matches, even after FTDNA applied their down weighting formula to prevent over prediction in endogamous populations. Seems I get about 30-40 new ones every week. I don't think any of them were colonial. My lone L583+ relation is signing up for Family Finder, so that might prove interesting.
 
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2012, 10:39:37 AM »


I now have 1027 Family Finder matches, even after FTDNA applied their down weighting formula to prevent over prediction in endogamous populations. Seems I get about 30-40 new ones every week. I don't think any of them were colonial. My lone L583+ relation is signing up for Family Finder, so that might prove interesting.
 

Is that correct? Over 1000 at FtDNA???
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Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2012, 10:44:55 AM »


I now have 1027 Family Finder matches, even after FTDNA applied their down weighting formula to prevent over prediction in endogamous populations. Seems I get about 30-40 new ones every week. I don't think any of them were colonial. My lone L583+ relation is signing up for Family Finder, so that might prove interesting.
 

Is that correct? Over 1000 at FtDNA???

Yep... I believe there are similar numbers of high matches for many Eastern European Ashkenazi testers at 23andme. I do not know how well the FTDNA algorithms trim to prevent overmatching, but apparently maybe not enough.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2012, 10:50:59 AM »


I now have 1027 Family Finder matches, even after FTDNA applied their down weighting formula to prevent over prediction in endogamous populations. Seems I get about 30-40 new ones every week. I don't think any of them were colonial. My lone L583+ relation is signing up for Family Finder, so that might prove interesting.
 

Yep... I believe there are similar numbers of high matches for many Eastern European Ashkenazi testers at 23andme. I do not know how well the FTDNA algorithms trim to prevent overmatching, but apparently maybe not enough.
[/quote]

Yes the same occurs over at 23andme  as high number of matches as well over 1000 for Ashkenazi cousins.  I was just surprised that FtDNA has such an over whelming numbers of Ashkenazi tested already.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2012, 10:54:14 AM »

Yep... I believe there are similar numbers of high matches for many Eastern European Ashkenazi testers at 23andme. I do not know how well the FTDNA algorithms trim to prevent overmatching, but apparently maybe not enough.

Here is a recent post from Matt Dexter (an R-M222) in of the FTDNA Forums on this..

Quote:

FTDNA definitely has an adjustment for Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jewish.

All FF tests are compared against a combined Ashkenazi/Sephardic reference and when they come back with a clear indication of a match to some % of what is considered common, then FTDNA up weights or down weights the sample matches accordingly in the algorithm.

The adjustments are different between the companies. FTDNA looks at the DNA while 23andMe used to look at the number of matches and I am sure 23andMe has (slightly) changed their criteria by now.

In the end, FTDNA adjusts the algorithm, thus effecting the prediction, 23andMe adjusts the distance (range). It would be nice to see FTDNA adjust their ranges too.. It seems endogamous populations do extend the ranges beyond what FTDNA lists for "distant" matches.

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« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2012, 02:47:49 PM »

I just went to 248 now adding two new 4th cousins.... you still got me beat!

I now have 1027 Family Finder matches, even after FTDNA applied their down weighting formula to prevent over prediction in endogamous populations. Seems I get about 30-40 new ones every week. I don't think any of them were colonial. My lone L583+ relation is signing up for Family Finder, so that might prove interesting.
 

Wow !!!
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« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2012, 03:28:47 AM »

I have over 240+ ftdna family finder matches. FtDNA is where my English matches are coming from.

Wow! That's a good number it seems.  I just did a relative finder on the paternal line using just SRY2627 and came up with 5 other persons.  I'm assuming all the people who have currently tested at 23andMe only 6 have turned out to be SRY2627+.

I also took a gander at percentage shared of Northern European and came up with 991 people with .39% being the highest with a female member. 

When I only use my subclade search criteria, the highest percentage out of the 5 is at .17% related.  That seems a way off and the other SRY2627+ are on average around .10% to .13%.

Also, I really thought there would be a lot more SRY2627 at 23andMe, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

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