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Author Topic: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA  (Read 120485 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #175 on: May 19, 2012, 08:07:42 AM »

And if both German  was HT35!
 That would be proof that the Beaker is not responsible for the distribution of R1b in Western Europe!
 For me, this discovery proves nothing!
 Sorry!

I dont follow your logic.  It is entirely possible that the first beaker people were a mix of L23*, L51*, L11* and the earliest downstream clades.  The more downstream clades would not intitally have been predominant.  Around the time they arose (perhaps 2600BC) they would initially have been one guy in an L51* lineage.  The same would be true earlier.  The first L51* guy (I believe the variance for L51* was calculated about 2800BCish) would have been one guy in an L23* lineage.  The German beaker people whose ancient DNA was recovered was at a time c. 2500-2600BC when it could have been L23*, L51*, L11*, P312 and even perhaps a very early downstream clade.  However the variance map of L23* would suggest German L23* is not that old so I would almost rule that out.  L51* is mainly western and southern and only has one little outlier blob in the Carpathians in terms of distribution (again looking for ore??) but there is none in Germany on RR's map.  I think the most likely clade for the German beakers recently tested as M269 was L11* or P312* or even U152*.  That is my opinon based on distribution, variance, likely direction of origin etc. 

L21 clearly also originated from P312* (SE France??) and surely spread up the Loire from somewhere near its source (perhaps into the Seine too).  From the Loire mouth it would have spread into NW France, the isles and also down along the Vendee and to the north coasts close to the Pyrenees.  It seems to have had some control of the routes of Atlantic France (and the neighbouring Spanish Basque shores) and the isles.  I suspect it later reached back into France too using the same rivers and coasts.  I think L21 had itself in a rather nice niche in beaker terms as it had all that coast, control of Armorica, western Britain, Ireland, some of the Pyrenness which all were ore-rich.  IMO the L21 was in charge of one of the most privillaged parts of the beaker network.  The other non-L21 area of similar desirability - Atlantic Iberia and Alps/Central Europe were probably controlled by others although I do imagine there was some exchange.  In later times, L21 would have been a major player in the Atlantic Bronze Age networks although this also included Atlantic Iberia where it seems to me that L21 would have been rare and probably 'blow-ins' from further north.
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« Reply #176 on: May 19, 2012, 11:37:29 AM »

Of course you are free to like and to write novels. Also Bryan Sykes wrote The seven daughters of Eve. But what will you write when a R-something is found 7000 years old or more in Europe and I bet in Tuscany/Liguria above all?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #177 on: May 19, 2012, 12:43:46 PM »

Of course you are free to like and to write novels. Also Bryan Sykes wrote The seven daughters of Eve. But what will you write when a R-something is found 7000 years old or more in Europe and I bet in Tuscany/Liguria above all?

I wouldnt be surprised if some M269* or L23* around 7000 years old did exist in Italy.  If M269* or L23* was somewhere like the Balkans or the east Med around then then it would almost be weird if some didnt get there.  Although I dont believe it originated in Italy, Italy might well have been it first location in western Europe (in cold war terms) .  There is clearly some place between Italy and the Black Sea where R1b lived in a pre-beaker culture, perhaps a sequence of cultures. In fact I half expect some day that the oldest beaker dates may turn up in Italy or the Adriatic Balkans.  Muller and Willigen did broadly date the whole of the West Med. from Iberia to Italy as the early phase of beaker and it has always made a lot more sense to me that Italy and SE France would be older than Iberia in terms of M269.  The L51* map would also imply to me that Italy and SE France were early, perhaps the earliest beaker zone even though Iberia is a popular choice.  The details are unknown and I think radiocarbon has not 100% resolved the origins and directions of beaker spread.  The L51* map and beaker distribution does seem to show the importance of Scicilly, Tuscany, Liguria, Sardinia, Corsica etc.  There is a lack of L51* east of Italy so its tempting for me to think L51* occurred among an L23* person in somewhere like Scicilly or Tuscany.  I had kind of wondered if the Golasecca culture was not a source of L23* at one time but the Ice Man is not (but he is only one man)   
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #178 on: May 19, 2012, 01:07:31 PM »

About the lack of R-L51 in East Italy probably we should investigate more, because the first map of R-L51, done by Argiedude but with my contribute, found R-L51 above all in the Rhaetian Region (Alto Adige/Sud Tyrol) and I put many (probably) R-L51-s from SMGF to Ysearch from that zone.
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« Reply #179 on: May 19, 2012, 02:05:29 PM »

L21 clearly also originated from P312* (SE France??) and surely spread up the Loire from somewhere near its source (perhaps into the Seine too).  From the Loire mouth it would have spread into NW France, the isles and also down along the Vendee and to the north coasts close to the Pyrenees.  It seems to have had some control of the routes of Atlantic France (and the neighbouring Spanish Basque shores) and the isles.  I suspect it later reached back into France too using the same rivers and coasts.

I think, in the first quoted sentence, you meant down the Loire?  Because this looks almost as if you are beginning to agree with me; and we both know I'm crazy.

Apart from that one word, I think your arguments today (here, and in your next post) have been well constructed.  If I weren't crazy, I'd even agree.  It's mainly a question of whether or not the north side of Europe was plied by seagoing boats, ca. 3000 BC; and I'm not sure either of us really knows.  Even I don't think they would have been coracles, or made of bundled reeds.
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« Reply #180 on: May 19, 2012, 09:59:56 PM »

It strike me that an average is not really that useful. We 're looking for a 'population explosion' or something that changed the proportion o f R1b--- in comparison to the rest of the population.  JeanM's lactose persistence idea it could  the rate influence the survival of populations. If it made even a small proportional difference in the infant mortality rate,  it could have an exponential effect on the genetic make up of the population.
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jerome72
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« Reply #181 on: May 20, 2012, 09:59:30 AM »

And if both German  was HT35!
 That would be proof that the Beaker is not responsible for the distribution of R1b in Western Europe!
 For me, this discovery proves nothing!
 Sorry!
I dont follow your logic. 

I do not know if Kromsdorf in Germany is considered to the cradle of European Beaker ..
But if not:

If we want to explain the strong presence of R1b in Western Europe, we are obliged to explain the strong presence of P312.
 If the campaniform is not P312, then no connection possible.
All P312 descended from one man: one who had the first mutation. I recall that P312- is very rare in Europe.

 On the other hand, if we discover  beaker P312:
A) Beaker ant P312 are related
B)  P312 was already present everywhere in Western Europe before the beaker, and thus find among campaniform P312 reflects the population at the time and is not specifically related to Beaker.

 
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« Reply #182 on: May 20, 2012, 04:09:01 PM »

And if both German  was HT35!
 That would be proof that the Beaker is not responsible for the distribution of R1b in Western Europe!
 For me, this discovery proves nothing!
 Sorry!
I dont follow your logic.  

I do not know if Kromsdorf in Germany is considered to the cradle of European Beaker ..
But if not:

If we want to explain the strong presence of R1b in Western Europe, we are obliged to explain the strong presence of P312.
 If the campaniform is not P312, then no connection possible.
All P312 descended from one man: one who had the first mutation. I recall that P312- is very rare in Europe.

 On the other hand, if we discover  beaker P312:
A) Beaker ant P312 are related
B)  P312 was already present everywhere in Western Europe before the beaker, and thus find among campaniform P312 reflects the population at the time and is not specifically related to Beaker.

 

If "B)" were true, we should expect to find some Neolithic P312 or L11 at least, but thus far none has turned up. In fact, this Kromsdorf Beaker R1b is the oldest R1b of any kind in Europe to date.

We don't have any ancient y-dna that indicates R1b was anywhere in Europe before the advent of the Beaker Folk. Maybe some will be discovered eventually, but it hasn't yet.
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Jean M
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« Reply #183 on: May 21, 2012, 05:22:36 AM »

I fully expect R1b to be found in Europe before Bell Beaker, but not all over Europe. I expect it in the Late Neolithic and early Copper Age of Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Hungary and Portugal.
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« Reply #184 on: May 21, 2012, 08:57:36 AM »

I fully expect R1b to be found in Europe before Bell Beaker, but not all over Europe. I expect it in the Late Neolithic and early Copper Age of Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Hungary and Portugal.
What archeological horizons are you associating the early (pre-Beaker) R1b with?

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« Reply #185 on: May 21, 2012, 09:18:52 AM »

The same ones that I have been associating it with for many moons in my online text. I am guessing that it spread into Europe from Anatolia with dairy farming. Though that is not the only possibility, it fits with the findings so far. In that case it could have entered via the Hamangia Culture c. 5200 BC and moved from there into Cucuteni, then become swept up in the Yamnaya Horizon c. 3300 BC. From there I imagine it flowing up the Danube into the Carpathian Basin and then in two main routes from there, both of which eventually tie up in the Bell Beaker network. Meanwhile other flows move into the Corded Ware Culture.

Naturally it is a more complex picture than that. Some could have moved north earlier into the TRB. Then there are various other cultures influenced by Yamnaya. But it all mainly coalesces into the two huge Copper Age twins: Bell Beaker and Corded Ware. At least in Europe. 
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« Reply #186 on: May 21, 2012, 10:24:29 AM »

The same ones that I have been associating it with for many moons in my online text. I am guessing that it spread into Europe from Anatolia with dairy farming. Though that is not the only possibility, it fits with the findings so far. In that case it could have entered via the Hamangia Culture c. 5200 BC and moved from there into Cucuteni, then become swept up in the Yamnaya Horizon c. 3300 BC. From there I imagine it flowing up the Danube into the Carpathian Basin and then in two main routes from there, both of which eventually tie up in the Bell Beaker network. Meanwhile other flows move into the Corded Ware Culture.

Naturally it is a more complex picture than that. Some could have moved north earlier into the TRB. Then there are various other cultures influenced by Yamnaya. But it all mainly coalesces into the two huge Copper Age twins: Bell Beaker and Corded Ware. At least in Europe.  

It is interesting that David Anthony notes the latter Cucuteni-Tripolye folks made incursions east into Yamnaya territories.  Were they an integrated Cucuteni/Yamnaya culture by that time?

What are the physical characteristics of the latter Cucuteni-Trypillian peoples?  Let's look at both sides of the timeframe and cultures.   What are the physical characteristics of the Bell Beakers versus the Cucuteni-Trypillian versus the Yamnaya, particularly the Yamnaya of the Sea of Azov type.

Quote from: Jean M
It seems that among the steppe peoples, some tribes were dominated by haplogroup R1a1a, and others by R1b1b2. Judging by the end results, the Volga-Ural region, whence sprang the Afanasievo and Andronovo Cultures, was strong in R1a1a, while the region around the Sea of Azov was strong in R1b1b2. Some of the direct descendants of the tribes around the Sea of Azov remained on the steppe after others left for western Europe. They appear in history as the Cimmerians, who were driven out of the steppe into Anatolia and up the Danube in the Iron Age. It is therefore unlikely that we shall find their descendants in the Ukraine today. Since a brother lineage, R1b1c (V88), appears in the Levant and seem connected to the spread of the Neolithic to Africa, we may hazard a guess that R1b1b2 had fed into the steppe with pastoralists who had developed dairy farming around the Sea of Marmara. R1b-L23 could have entered south-eastern Europe with dairy farmers, who contributed to the Cucuteni-Tripolye Culture adjacent to the steppe. In its late stages the Cucuteni-Tripolye Culture and Yamnaya Horizon cross-fertilised each other and merged to some extent.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/indoeuropeangenetics.shtml#R1b1b2

This is one part of your proposal that I get a little confused.  Did the R1b ancestry that's descendants moved into Western Europe come from Western Anatolian into SE Europe west and north up into Cucuteni-Tripolye lands? or did that ancestral lineage come from the Sea of Azov area around north of the Black Sea and then due west?  Ultimately, the R-L51 and then R-L11 TMRCAs were just of one lineage.  As you know, I think the R-L11 TMRCA is young, similar to P312's and U106's TMRCAs - Bronze Age types (just MHO.)
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« Reply #187 on: May 21, 2012, 11:04:15 AM »

I posted this on a different thread this morning [Variance of R1b-L23+ Calculated from Academic Studies], but on reflection I think it belongs here:

I thought this post yesterday by MOESAN was pertinent, if a little confusing:

http://tinyurl.com/l5hmz8l

It was almost immediately contradicted by rms2, as you will see if you read it.  But the Dinaric thing was only one of five or six associated traits (physical, linguistic, material culture, Y-DNA).  To me, and I think to MOESAN, the emphasis should be elsewhere in his post -- an unexpected exception to the corded ware rule, that he noticed -- so I'll just highlight that:

Bell Beakers ones was found in one, the Khvalynsk culture in Russia (stage Kurgan III, before -3000?) - if it's true, it's very important, isn't it?

This assertion was pretty clear to me, but his source wasn't -- some unnamed and undated compilation, possibly edited or chaired by Bernard Sergent, and having to do with Indo-European language studies.  Jean M or Alan TH or somebody may know what compilation he's citing, but I don't.  Anyway, Khvalynsk (variously spelled, or transliterated) is a smallish river port way down the Volga, between Samara and Saratov.
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« Reply #188 on: May 21, 2012, 01:11:15 PM »

What are the physical characteristics of the latter Cucuteni-Trypillian peoples?  Let's look at both sides of the timeframe and cultures.   What are the physical characteristics of the Bell Beakers versus the Cucuteni-Trypillian versus the Yamnaya, particularly the Yamnaya of the Sea of Azov type.

Here is what the late Carleton Coon observed about the Bell Beaker type:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

Basically, there were two main populations of Bell Beakers.  Physically, the eastern one was more long, narrowed faced and mostly mesocephalic (medium crania).  This is the "Dinaric" type.  The later Celts were similiar to this type.  Around the Rhineland and Britain, they were more brachycephalic and wider faced.  All seem to have been taller on average than the previous neolithic people.  My guess is, this eastern type (R1b?) was partially the result of gracile neolithics(hence the narrow-face retained in eastern BB) intermarrying with foragers/steppe intruders in the northern Balkans/ Carpathian basin.  Of course, the introduction of milk drinking may have played a nutritional role.
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« Reply #189 on: May 21, 2012, 01:13:20 PM »

This assertion was pretty clear to me, but his source wasn't -- some unnamed and undated compilation, possibly edited or chaired by Bernard Sergent, and having to do with Indo-European language studies.  Jean M or Alan TH or somebody may know what compilation he's citing, but I don't.  Anyway, Khvalynsk (variously spelled, or transliterated) is a smallish river port way down the Volga, between Samara and Saratov.
Bernard Sergent: Les Indo-Européens, histoire, langues, mythes in french. See here: http://www.amazon.fr/Les-Indo-Europ%C3%A9ens-Bernard-Sergent/dp/2228889563/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337619581&sr=8-1
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« Reply #190 on: May 21, 2012, 01:15:41 PM »

...so I'll just highlight that:

Bell Beakers ones was found in one, the Khvalynsk culture in Russia (stage Kurgan III, before -3000?) - if it's true, it's very important, isn't it?

This assertion was pretty clear to me, but his source wasn't -- some unnamed and undated compilation, possibly edited or chaired by Bernard Sergent, and having to do with Indo-European language studies. ...

I haven't been able to find references to Bell Beaker artifacts in the Khvalynsk Culture, but I think that would be important if there are some.

I guess I should ask further, is there a clear link between the Eastern Bell Beakers and the Kurgans? It seems plausible and I think Jean M would say the stelae demonstrate there are.

Quote from: Jean M
David Anthony traced the movement of Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic people up the Danube as far as the Hungarian Plain (Carpathian Basin) by their kurgans. Then we start to see the Bell Beaker Culture spreading over a swathe of Europe. This culture is recognised by its characteristic pottery, shaped like an inverted bell.1 Bell Beaker ware is found as far east as Poland
....
Carved stone anthropomorphic stelae mark the trail of these copper-workers, so let us call them the Stelae People. An early splinter group from the Proto-Italo-Celtic parent would help to explain why the Celtic of Iberia had such an archaic structure, retaining Italic elements
...
Early Beaker elements are found within the Vučedol Culturebut only later do the two fuse to form the Cetina culture... The earliest anthropomorphic stelae have been found in Yamnaya burial mounds in Ukraine. They are particularly associated with one sub-culture, known as the Kemi Oba Culture, centred on Crimea, which was influenced by the neighbouring Maikop Culture. Similar stelae are found at Bell Beaker sites in the Swiss and Italian Alps, and in the Italian regions of Lunigiana and Trento-Alto-Adige, southern France and Iberia.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/bellbeaker.shtml
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« Reply #191 on: May 21, 2012, 01:24:46 PM »

What are the physical characteristics of the latter Cucuteni-Trypillian peoples?  Let's look at both sides of the timeframe and cultures.   What are the physical characteristics of the Bell Beakers versus the Cucuteni-Trypillian versus the Yamnaya, particularly the Yamnaya of the Sea of Azov type.

Here is what the late Carleton Coon observed about the Bell Beaker type:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

Basically, there were two main populations of Bell Beakers.  Physically, the eastern one was more long, narrowed faced and mostly mesocephalic (medium crania).  This is the "Dinaric" type.  The later Celts were similiar to this type.  Around the Rhineland and Britain, they were more brachycephalic and wider faced.  All seem to have been taller on average than the previous neolithic people.  My guess is, this eastern type (R1b?) was partially the result of gracile neolithics(hence the narrow-face retained in eastern BB) intermarrying with foragers/steppe intruders in the northern Balkans/ Carpathian basin.  Of course, the introduction of milk drinking may have played a nutritional role.

What were the Cucuteni-Tripolye like? Were the people of the late Cucuteni-Tripolye people different than the earlier versions?

While I'm asking, what about early IE possible folks in Anatolia?  The Hittites?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:28:22 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #192 on: May 21, 2012, 01:45:37 PM »

We have some mtDNA from Cucuteni-Tripolye people from Ukraine. It is what we would expect of people with a (distant) origin in the Near East, including H, J, T. The interesting thing is that the T is the relatively rare T2a1b1 and it turns up again in Andronovo. Positive proof of mixing, I'd say.

I gave up on the attempt to work out where the broad-headedness of one strand of Bell Beaker came from.
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« Reply #193 on: May 21, 2012, 02:21:47 PM »

The interesting thing is that the T is the relatively rare T2a1b1 and it turns up again in Andronovo.
T2a1b1 descendants are all Western Europeans.
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« Reply #194 on: May 21, 2012, 02:44:28 PM »

T2a1b1 descendants are all Western Europeans.

You mean the people in the Family Tree DNA T2 project?  
 
Yes - all 5 of the confirmed T2a1b1 and T2a1b1a persons listed there are either European or from the US with European names. That's no surprise, surely? mtDNA found in Andronovo would most probably be also found among those from the steppe who travelled west as well.

Since there is a severe shortage of Iranian and Indian persons testing with Family Tree DNA, we'd be lucky to find one in the T2 project at all, let alone one with a rare mtDNA haplogroup. I wouldn't know how to find out if there are any T2a1b1a persons out there in India or Iran or Afghanistan or wherever.

The point is that if you have a haplogroup from Cucuteni appearing also in Andronovo, there must have been some gene flow between steppe groups and Cucuteni.

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #195 on: May 21, 2012, 03:02:01 PM »

This assertion was pretty clear to me, but his source wasn't -- some unnamed and undated compilation, possibly edited or chaired by Bernard Sergent, and having to do with Indo-European language studies.  Jean M or Alan TH or somebody may know what compilation he's citing, but I don't.  Anyway, Khvalynsk (variously spelled, or transliterated) is a smallish river port way down the Volga, between Samara and Saratov.
Bernard Sergent: Les Indo-Européens, histoire, langues, mythes in french. See here: http://www.amazon.fr/Les-Indo-Europ%C3%A9ens-Bernard-Sergent/dp/2228889563/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337619581&sr=8-1

I have the book and can check it when I get home. Did the poster provide a page number?
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« Reply #196 on: May 21, 2012, 03:15:04 PM »

T2a1b1 descendants are all Western Europeans.

You mean the people in the Family Tree DNA T2 project?  
 
Yes - all 5 of the confirmed T2a1b1 and T2a1b1a persons listed there are either European or from the US with European names. That's no surprise, surely? mtDNA found in Andronovo would most probably be also found among those from the steppe who travelled west as well.

Since there is a severe shortage of Iranian and Indian persons testing with Family Tree DNA, we'd be lucky to find one in the T2 project at all, let alone one with a rare mtDNA haplogroup. I wouldn't know how to find out if there are any T2a1b1a persons out there in India or Iran or Afghanistan or wherever.

The point is that if you have a haplogroup from Cucuteni appearing also in Andronovo, there must have been some gene flow between steppe groups and Cucuteni.



Jean, you should search the last paper about hg.J/T. Probably it wasn’t for free, but I have printed the supplements. Hg. T2a1 is 14.5+/-3.0 years old. T2a1b, with the mutation 16324 probably a few time after. T2a1b2 has descendants in East Europe and North Caucasus, but T2a1b1 is probably Western European. Anyway the time is probably much before the cultures you are thinking about. Unfortunately I must work for my school now, but you could look at the data of Behar 2012b, even though I think he isn’t always reliable.

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« Reply #197 on: May 21, 2012, 03:22:00 PM »

I haven't been able to find references to Bell Beaker artifacts in the Khvalynsk Culture, but I think that would be important if there are some.

I guess I should ask further, is there a clear link between the Eastern Bell Beakers and the Kurgans? It seems plausible and I think Jean M would say the stelae demonstrate there are.
Look at this paper of Nadezhda Kotova and Larissa Spitsyna about pottery in the steppes: http://tinyurl.com/bwkryed
I think there are some links between these potteries and beaker ones.
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« Reply #198 on: May 21, 2012, 04:05:23 PM »

I have the book and can check it when I get home. Did the poster provide a page number?

No.  Nor a title, nor a date -- Bernard Secher gave us this title, and assuming he has correctly deduced Moesan's reference, that's about 2004 (judging from the comments about it on Amazon).  I had found other IE studies by Sergent, but they were mostly about linguistic movements from the heartland eastward (esp. to India) and whether those involve migrations, conquests, trade routes, etc.
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« Reply #199 on: May 21, 2012, 04:27:06 PM »

What are the physical characteristics of the latter Cucuteni-Trypillian peoples?  Let's look at both sides of the timeframe and cultures.   What are the physical characteristics of the Bell Beakers versus the Cucuteni-Trypillian versus the Yamnaya, particularly the Yamnaya of the Sea of Azov type.

Here is what the late Carleton Coon observed about the Bell Beaker type:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

Basically, there were two main populations of Bell Beakers.  Physically, the eastern one was more long, narrowed faced and mostly mesocephalic (medium crania).  This is the "Dinaric" type.  The later Celts were similiar to this type.  Around the Rhineland and Britain, they were more brachycephalic and wider faced.  All seem to have been taller on average than the previous neolithic people.  My guess is, this eastern type (R1b?) was partially the result of gracile neolithics(hence the narrow-face retained in eastern BB) intermarrying with foragers/steppe intruders in the northern Balkans/ Carpathian basin.  Of course, the introduction of milk drinking may have played a nutritional role.

What were the Cucuteni-Tripolye like? Were the people of the late Cucuteni-Tripolye people different than the earlier versions?

While I'm asking, what about early IE possible folks in Anatolia?  The Hittites?

Cucuteni-Tripolye were the gracile, short Mediterranean types.  Heads were not near as long as Corded or Cro-magon-like steppe foragers and also had short faces.  Average height about 5'3'' or 160cm.  They did have a brachycephalic minority with cranial indexes up to 80 which is similiar to BB.  I haven't seen anything different in the later period.  However, towards the later neolithic there were more brachycephlic elements emerging in the Globular amphora and Baden cultures who were not too far away.  This is also close to where the early ceramic influences in Bell Beaker came from.

Here is the page about Hittites and bronze age Anatolia:
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-V02.htm
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 04:29:20 PM by MHammers » Logged

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