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Author Topic: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA  (Read 123008 times)
Jean M
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« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2012, 04:34:49 AM »

I do think we may need to examine the Vistula, and other north-flowing eastern waterways, for the full R1b1a2 story.

As you know, Bell Beaker sites have been found on the upper and lower Vistula. They are marked on my map of Bell Beaker distribution. Those Bell Beaker makers really got about! The distribution makes it obvious that they used river as well as coastal transport.

As for the direction of movement - I can see that people are having a lot of fun here letting their imaginations rip. While I wouldn't want to put too much of a damper on that buzz, which might throw up something interesting and unexpected, we are constrained by a huge body of evidence. That evidence is not restricted to dating the first bell-shaped pot.

In fact pottery is not important in working out where BB people (DNA) came from. Copper-working and anthropomorphic stelae track them from the steppe up the Danube. From there one group (who, helpfully for us,  carried on erecting stelae) moved across northern Italy and on to Portugal, spreading out from there to Southern France, Brittany, Spain and the British Isles. Another group carried on up the Danube, and from there up the Rhine and rivers to the east, arriving eventually in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

Whatever queries one may have about dating, there is no doubt whatsoever that BB went south to north in broad outline. The latest dates are in Denmark. No-one thinks that BB started in the British Isles or Poland.

The pottery comes in various styles, which show the various routes it took.

See http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/BellBeakerGroups.jpg
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 04:46:51 AM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2012, 06:19:28 AM »

Here is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.

I wonder if he could replicate the mead too.

Arch

I have made my own mead on a number of occasions (I make beer and wine at home, as well). Mead is really easy to make.

I'd like to have some of those Beaker cups to drink it in, that's for sure.
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rms2
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« Reply #102 on: May 05, 2012, 06:20:40 AM »

Here is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.
I'm not sure this is the right way because his beakers are charred in some places

I think that is probably just ash and soot and cleans off pretty easily.
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rms2
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« Reply #103 on: May 05, 2012, 06:26:05 AM »

I do think we may need to examine the Vistula, and other north-flowing eastern waterways, for the full R1b1a2 story.

As you know, Bell Beaker sites have been found on the upper and lower Vistula. They are marked on my map of Bell Beaker distribution. Those Bell Beaker makers really got about! The distribution makes it obvious that they used river as well as coastal transport.

As for the direction of movement - I can see that people are having a lot of fun here letting their imaginations rip. While I wouldn't want to put too much of a damper on that buzz, which might throw up something interesting and unexpected, we are constrained by a huge body of evidence. That evidence is not restricted to dating the first bell-shaped pot.

In fact pottery is not important in working out where BB people (DNA) came from. Copper-working and anthropomorphic stelae track them from the steppe up the Danube. From there one group (who, helpfully for us,  carried on erecting stelae) moved across northern Italy and on to Portugal, spreading out from there to Southern France, Brittany, Spain and the British Isles. Another group carried on up the Danube, and from there up the Rhine and rivers to the east, arriving eventually in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

Whatever queries one may have about dating, there is no doubt whatsoever that BB went south to north in broad outline. The latest dates are in Denmark. No-one thinks that BB started in the British Isles or Poland.

The pottery comes in various styles, which show the various routes it took.

See http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/BellBeakerGroups.jpg

It occurs to me that, if these two Beaker males were R-L11 rather than R-P312, then it is possible that the Beaker Folk fostered both P312 and U106.

We know that one of them was U106-, but that doesn't automatically mean he was P312+.

Don't get me wrong, I would be overjoyed if he did turn out to be P312+ (I would probably pass out in ecstasy if he were L21+), but all we really know is that he was M269+ U106-.
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rms2
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« Reply #104 on: May 05, 2012, 06:31:21 AM »

Here is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.

When they are upside-down cooling, I can make out that definitive bell shape. I wonder if this fellow sells these things.

You read my mind. That is the real reason I googled "Beaker pots for sale".

I did find one beaker for sale here, but - caramba! - it's expensive.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 06:32:11 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #105 on: May 05, 2012, 06:48:13 AM »

It is, perhaps, the Chardonnay speaking (I live on the far left coast of the USA after all), but may I say how pleased and proud I am to be even tangentially connected to such a smart and passionate group as all of you?

The day may come when horribly degraded aDNA can be reconstituted from many more archaeological sites. At the very least, we may now expect far more detailed and routine testing of ancient remains. It may sometimes seem we’ve been at this a long time, but this really is just the first crack of dawn in new era of understanding our ancestral origins. It’s tremendously fun and exciting.

Zum Wohl!



I really and totally agree.

It would be difficult to express just how happy this discovery has made me and just what kind of tremendous good news it is.

What is next, I wonder.
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Jean M
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« Reply #106 on: May 05, 2012, 06:51:46 AM »

It occurs to me that, if these two Beaker males were R-L11 rather than R-P312, then it is possible that the Beaker Folk fostered both P312 and U106.

I have included the possibility that L11 gave birth to U106 somewhere in Northern Europe. See Germanic genetic markers.

Quote
R1b-U106 has its peak in northern Europe and a distribution which correlates fairly well with Germanic speakers, past and present. A sprinkling of men within that distribution carry the parent clade R1b-L11*, opening up the possibility that R1b-U106 arose from R1b-L11* in Northern Europe. However its density of distribution there suggests that it arose at the head of a wave of advance into Northern Europe.
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Arwunbee
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« Reply #107 on: May 05, 2012, 07:22:23 AM »

Both R1b fellows were S21-
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Map of L44 subclade (of U106): http://g.co/maps/9xswy
chris1
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« Reply #108 on: May 05, 2012, 07:37:51 AM »

It is, perhaps, the Chardonnay speaking (I live on the far left coast of the USA after all), but may I say how pleased and proud I am to be even tangentially connected to such a smart and passionate group as all of you?

The day may come when horribly degraded aDNA can be reconstituted from many more archaeological sites. At the very least, we may now expect far more detailed and routine testing of ancient remains. It may sometimes seem we’ve been at this a long time, but this really is just the first crack of dawn in new era of understanding our ancestral origins. It’s tremendously fun and exciting.

Zum Wohl!



I really and totally agree.

It would be difficult to express just how happy this discovery has made me and just what kind of tremendous good news it is.

What is next, I wonder.
It's definitely fascinating news. I live in an area where the Beaker people's howes (burial mounds) and rock art are still dotted all over the moor tops and ridges. They've looked down on the villages in the dales for thousands of years. It's nice to know they might have been our distant ancestors.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2012, 08:15:44 AM »

I checked all the mtDNA of the paper and I think having demonstrated their origin in Portugal, at the origin of Bell Beaker, except U5a1, believing to what the paper said and what others said, Jean Manco first. But checking the mutations on SMGF I have easily found that there are about 400 people (European ones of course) with these mutations:

16256T
16270T
16399G.

I didn't believe that the asses were so many. I believed that only Maju in his blog could write similar foolishnesses.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2012, 08:19:28 AM »

If I add the mutations in HVRII (73G and 263G) there are 1 American and two people from Iran.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2012, 08:25:54 AM »

Taking for instance one of the Europeans with a rare surname, Klautke from Germany, he is:

16256T
16270T
16399G
73G
263G
315.1C


Good fun! But who gives a salary to these scholars?
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #112 on: May 05, 2012, 08:34:29 AM »

Perhaps they haven't found in modern samples 10873C? But there are also back mutations (above all post mortem from T to C), and these haplotypes are so numerous in Europe and are clearly linked with this U5a1!
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 09:04:20 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #113 on: May 05, 2012, 08:49:21 AM »

Here is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.

I wonder if he could replicate the mead too.

Arch

I have made my own mead on a number of occasions (I make beer and wine at home, as well). Mead is really easy to make.

I'd like to have some of those Beaker cups to drink it in, that's for sure.

I was on the excavation that found the biggest beaker ever found in Europe.  It held abut 10 litres!
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razyn
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« Reply #114 on: May 05, 2012, 09:02:15 AM »


In fact pottery is not important in working out where BB people (DNA) came from. Copper-working and anthropomorphic stelae track them from the steppe up the Danube. From there one group (who, helpfully for us,  carried on erecting stelae) moved across northern Italy and on to Portugal, spreading out from there to Southern France, Brittany, Spain and the British Isles. Another group carried on up the Danube, and from there up the Rhine and rivers to the east, arriving eventually in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

Whatever queries one may have about dating, there is no doubt whatsoever that BB went south to north in broad outline. The latest dates are in Denmark. No-one thinks that BB started in the British Isles or Poland.

The pottery comes in various styles, which show the various routes it took.

I don't disagree with the broad outline part, or the pottery style part.  But if one agrees with the first paragraph quoted here, those stelae-erecting and copper-working eastern types most likely had R1bxxx in their gene pool when they arrived in Portugal (or wherever they modified the style of the pottery they already knew how to make).  If they had it (R1bxxx) then, they also had it when they were erecting stelae in the Isles, when they were searching for and trading in tin, when they were building the Dover boat, when they spread the Celto-Italic family of languages, domesticated the Pottock pony, introduced the Volga frog to French rivers and cuisine, etc.  Not all of their useful and innovative activities were centered on the Mediterranean; and the people (as distinguished from these specific pots) didn't originally spread from west to east.  It may well be that some of their later DNA mutations, pottery styles, inventions, and dialects did so.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, we now have a data point associating R1b1a2 with a particular Beaker (I don't know its style) in the upper Elbe watershed by 2500 BC.  That's better than we had a few days ago.  We can continue to speculate about where the several R1b downstream mutations occurred, until we actually know that.
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Jean M
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« Reply #115 on: May 05, 2012, 09:31:46 AM »

@ razyn

Yes that's exactly my view.  

I have spent more space on the Mediterranean route in my text only because that is the new idea which has not been spelled out before. So I have to go into the evidence more. The route along the Danube and down the Rhine is very well known and does not need to be proved to readers familiar with the general background. So it gets less column inches from me, but is very important obviously.

I should mention that no stelae were erected in Ireland or Britain that anyone has uncovered. The last one along that route is in the Channel Isles.

  
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 09:35:09 AM by Jean M » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #116 on: May 05, 2012, 09:49:30 AM »


we now have a data point associating R1b1a2 with a particular Beaker (I don't know its style) in the upper Elbe watershed by 2500 BC. 

To be frank, the reason we have Bell Beaker DNA from Germany is because the Germany economy is so strong. Even in the middle of recession it seems they are willing to spend the cash on aDNA. Some countries are just not going to think about it. You might think that Britain would be willing, but British politicians are acting like we are on the brink of starvation. I'm placing my faith in the hefty research grant that Ron Pinhasi of UCC landed - at least to get more Neolithic aDNA.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #117 on: May 05, 2012, 10:05:03 AM »

But, if I am not wrong, it seems that 10873C is the rCRS. What are saying these scholars?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 10:05:28 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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eochaidh
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« Reply #118 on: May 05, 2012, 12:23:03 PM »

If I add the mutations in HVRII (73G and 263G) there are 1 American and two people from Iran.

 I have those HVRII 73G and 263G mutations. My mtDNA line traces back through my Quebec born mother to Francoise Arguin, b. 1697, Camaret-Sur-Mer, Cournouailles, Bretagne, France.

But I'm T2g. It seems very rare, but I have seen it in Iran.
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rms2
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« Reply #119 on: May 05, 2012, 12:51:00 PM »

Both R1b fellows were S21-

You're right. They just couldn't get the one from Grave 8 confirmed for M269.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 12:51:40 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #120 on: May 05, 2012, 01:06:57 PM »

Here is an interesting video on firing Beaker pots by a man in England who makes replicas of them.

I wonder if he could replicate the mead too.

Arch

I have made my own mead on a number of occasions (I make beer and wine at home, as well). Mead is really easy to make.

I'd like to have some of those Beaker cups to drink it in, that's for sure.

I was on the excavation that found the biggest beaker ever found in Europe.  It held abut 10 litres!

Hopefully, that was the communal beaker! Otherwise, you all should have recovered a fully intact and pickled liver among the remains there.

I'm working on pickling mine. ;-)
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« Reply #121 on: May 05, 2012, 01:50:36 PM »

These videos were pulled from YouTube over copyright issues, so they might not last long here either, but they're pretty cool.

Part 2.

Jean M first pointed these out a couple of years ago, back when they were on YouTube, as I recall.
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Jean M
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« Reply #122 on: May 09, 2012, 09:31:37 AM »

Absolutely great news! (In fact it was news in January,  but I only just picked it up, courtesy of Dienekes.)

https://sites.google.com/site/beanresearchnetwork/description-of-research-projects
Quote
1 PhD position: Orienting Y-chromosome lineages in space and time
Trinity College Dublin, Ireland, Smurfit Institute; Dan Bradley

There is a huge wealth of Y chromosome data from modern surveys using a standard reference panel of SNPs that are known to show strong geographical structure. Patterns observed using thousands of samples from Europe and the Near East have been subject to very strong interpretations where, for example the spread of farmers into Europe have been cited as the origin of alternately, i) virtually all, and ii) only a minority of modern European Y chromosome lineages. The postulation of an association between specific SNP lineages and the Near Eastern Neolithic also has led to strong inference about migrations into North Africa at the dawn of agriculture. There is a clear need to produce time-stamped Y chromosome lineages to test and distinguish between these hypotheses.

Simply typing SNPs that have been ascertained using modern sampling gives a risk of missing vital patterns of variants in the past. One cannot assume that all past variants, or even major families of variants from thousands of years ago are represented today; indeed there are indications from other systems that sharp discontinuity from ancient to modern is possible. For this reason we propose to re-sequence the major non-repetitive regions of the Y chromosome in ancient samples. This will cover positions where SNPs have already been ascertained from modern samples, thus embedding these specimens in existing phylogenetic patterns. However, this will also uncover relationships that may be unobtainable from modern study but which may be critical in interpreting relationships among ancient groups.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 09:32:26 AM by Jean M » Logged
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #123 on: May 09, 2012, 10:32:44 AM »

During the time of the R1b+ tested Bell Beaker samples (2,600–2,500 cal BC), Bell Beaker samples were already spread from central Europe to Portugal.

Given that, it wouldn't make sense that the three main sub-clades of P312 (U152, L21 and DF27) weren't well established close to their current high frequency areas.

Given that line of thinking, and the fact that the two samples are U106-, my guess is that these two samples are either DF27+ or U152+.

P.S. - do not fret my distant L21 relatives, I fully expect that the Amesbury Archer is L21+

Anyone else care to speculate?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:09:43 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #124 on: May 09, 2012, 11:07:34 AM »

P.S. - do not fret my distant L21 relatives, I fully expect that the Amesbury Archer is L21+
Anyone else care to speculate?
We all know that Italy has a few R-L21, but, in my theory of the Italian refugium, I have always said that we couldn't exclude that already R-L21 was formed in Italy and we have the case of Argiedude, with his rare DYS19=10 and others, but also (probably) Soncina, who should be tested for this SNP etc., then, if the Amesbury Archer were R-L21, coming probably from the Alps, it should be a relative of Argiedude or Soncina.
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Maliclavelli


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