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Jean M
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« Reply #175 on: April 16, 2012, 02:08:36 PM »

@ Alan

Yes Kristiansen has some stimulating ideas, as ever. He is well worth reading. There is some really useful stuff in there, particularly fig. 14.3 showing the shift to grassland in Jutland. It is dramatic. Fig 14.6 showing the spread of the chariot updates what I have as well.  

However his ideas are not really gelling for me this time. Apart from the problematic Maikop starting point, the population push element doesn't seem to quite work. It's more of an environmental shift c. 4000 BC. I don't think Celtic spread from the West, and I'm not swayed by the idea that a couple of towns in Iberia constitute a population explosion.  
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 02:23:24 PM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #176 on: April 16, 2012, 04:05:16 PM »

I have been assuming that it spread east along the Silk Road sometime after the collapse of Andronovo, because it does not appear to be part of the movement into India and Iran. Its appearance in Europe could reflect the flight of the Cimmerians, or later movements west by Scythians etc.

[Added 16 April] The Baskirs - a Turkic people of Russia - are particularly interesting:

35% R1b-M269
26% R1a
17% N1c
13% R1b -M73
(Source Lobov 2009)

Here's the Myres' (2010) data for M73.  I've included other locations and frequencies that have M73 in conjunction with other early R1b.

R1b-M343* (likely P25*) and M73
Kazan, Russia (Tatars) .01 and .01
Turkey .006 and .006
Turkey (Cappadocia) .01 and .01

R1b-M269* and M73
Southeast Bashkirs .02 and .23
Turkey .02 and .006
Turkey (Cappadocia) .02 and .006

R1b-L23* and M73
Central Russia .02 and .004
Kazan, Russia (Tatars) .02 and .01
Bashkortostan (Tatars) .08 and .03
Southeast Bashkirs .32 and .23
North Bashkirs .03 and .01
Southwest Bashkirs .17 and .02
Karachays (NW Caucasus) .04 and .06
Megrels (S Caucasus) .01 and .01
Balkars (NW Caucasus) .02 and .10
Kabardians (NW Caucasus) .03 and .007
North Pakistan .02 and .09
Turkey .11 and .006
Turkey (Cappadocia) .15 and .01

Other than Pakistan, there is a hint of a trail of early R1b types from Anatolia to Central Russia when including M73.  However, many of these frequencies are possibly just outliers.  This may not have anything to do with PIE.  It could just as easily be related to historic Turkic movements and absorption of pre-existing r1b populations.


« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 04:30:54 PM by MHammers » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #177 on: April 16, 2012, 04:39:06 PM »

Indeed I am assuming that M73 was absorbed into Turkic populations as they moved westward over what had been Scythian territory, with some Scythians taking a "If you can't beat them, join them" attitude. 
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IALEM
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« Reply #178 on: April 18, 2012, 05:40:46 AM »

I finally ended reading Krisitiansen.It is a valuable effort to search in archeology beyond material remains and into social structures. Some details, though, are problematic. I found this paragraph particularly shocking.
 Also, on the Iberian Peninsula we find complex
Chalcolithic societies with a concentrated population
living inside huge fortified settlements. They stretched
from Zambujal at the Tagus estuary in Portugal to
south-east Spain, with Los Millares as the most wellknown
example. These complex societies collapsed
and were transformed into small expanding, maritime
Bell Beaker groups in the second quarter of the third
millennium BC

1) societies collapsed in by 2750-2500 BC? Certainly not Los Millares
2) Zambujal and Los Millafres are clearly parto of the same culture, however there is no Bell Beaker remains in Los Millares until very late, after 2000 BC and in a way that is clearly intrusive

Finally, the identification of Bell Beaker with protocletic is, of course, very problematic, to say the least.
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« Reply #179 on: April 18, 2012, 07:20:40 AM »

@ IALEM - I agree entirely. As I said in a post above, I feel that Kristiansen's piece should not be swallowed whole.  
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 07:23:33 AM by Jean M » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #180 on: May 07, 2012, 08:28:45 PM »

I suppose it is understandable for men who carry a particular haplogroup to want to believe that their direct ancestor had primacy in everything, but I'm getting a bit tired of R1a1a carriers fighting for the idea that 13910T lactase persistence arose in an R1a1a man, and R1b carriers fighting for the idea that PIE was first spoken by an R1b man. It doesn't matter. Not in the story of IE spread anyway. Both PIE and lactase persistence appear to have spread together east and west. For that to happen where carriers were predominantly R1a1a in the east and R1b in the west, then there cannot have been some rigid genetic and linguistic divide between R1a and R1b carriers.  
  
As like as not 13910T first occurred in a milkmaid. :) As for PIE - it developed in contact with Proto-Uralic around the southern Urals. I suggest that R1 had long moved between the steppe in summer and the south Caspian in winter, and that R1b cropped up among those who eventually settled at the southern end of the seasonal cycle while R1a distinguished those who settled at the northern end. Presumably they spoke the same language back in the Mesolithic - an ancestor of PIE. But those R1b V88 people (initially just just one man maybe) who moved south into the farming belt seem to have adopted Proto-Afro-Asiatic from other farmers before some of them moved to north Africa. There were probably many other languages among the farmers, only some of which survived. I'm suggesting that the ancestor of the language spoken in the Cucuteni Culture was one such.  

Yamnaya is seen not as a single culture, but as an "horizon" that spread west across the steppe, with a particular cultural package and (it seems) language. The package included much that had been acquired from adjacent cultures originally, including dairy farming, but not the concept of pottery-making, which had arrived earlier from the east.


So should there have been some R1b and tripoyle mtdnas carried east with Indo-Iranians? Why isn't it possible lactose persistence arose in an R1a man?
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« Reply #181 on: May 07, 2012, 08:33:16 PM »

I suppose it is understandable for men who carry a particular haplogroup to want to believe that their direct ancestor had primacy in everything, but I'm getting a bit tired of R1a1a carriers fighting for the idea that 13910T lactase persistence arose in an R1a1a man, and R1b carriers fighting for the idea that PIE was first spoken by an R1b man. It doesn't matter . . .

It isn't in the same league with having enough air to breathe or food and drink and shelter, but it does matter. Otherwise, there would be far fewer sales of y-dna tests and far far fewer posts here at World Families and elsewhere.

Maybe R1a was the original PIE y haplogroup. I don't know. I tend to think there wasn't much R1b, if any, in Cucuteni-Tripolye and that what was there will turn out to have been I2a, G2a, and E1b1b. So, if IE was transmitted rather than carried west, then perhaps R1b men learned it from I2a, G2a, and E1b1b middlemen, and not so much from the R1a originators themselves. Maybe R1b hasn't yet been found at Neolithic sites because our ancestors were the European aborigines, still at the hunter-gatherer stage, and thus rather scarce in farming communities.



That seems incredibly unlikely.  All the advantages would be with cultures who were used to farming products.  Lets put it this way, the mt DNA representative of the hunters (mainly U) did not prosper with the coming of farming.  U shrunk in size dramatically.  Its more likely by far that R1b hasnt been found simply because no yDNA from west European late Neolithic sites have been published as yet (other than one Corded Ware R1a family burial).  It may well be that it is associated with beakers and their post-beaker descendants in the same areas.   

I know, Alan. I wasn't giving my own opinion, just kind of continuing the line of "maybes" that began with "Maybe R1a was the original PIE y haplogroup".

I don't think R1b was in western Europe during the Paleolithic or even the Mesolithic Period.

I was giving my opinion about Cucuteni-Tripolye, though. I don't think any ancient R1b will be found there.

I wouldnt be surprised if the original area of PIE speaking was in the Bulgaria/Romania area that lies between the big R1a an R1b blocks on either side.  It was the first area of the spread of cattle dairying into Europe and there developed advanced and very populous cultures in that area.  I find it very hard to believe that some steppes hunters (later nomads) would have  imposed their language on Europe.  I think the whole Kurgan theory (in so much as it is seen as the actual source of IE and the origin of IE languages across most of Europe) will one day be seen as a textbook example of counter-intuitive arguing to support an inherited bit of baggage from the earlier days of the study of antiquity.  I have no doubt that at some stage R1a populations learned IE and were responsible for the spread of the language in some directions to the east and south but I dont think they were the original source.  I suspect that IE arose closer to the near east and spread into Anatolia in a pre-PIE form before spreading to the west side of the Black Sea with dairying.  From there it may have exercised an influence both east into the steppes and west into the rest of Europe.


Wishful thinking. The only thing worth exploring which subclade is related to PIE and when PIE R1a split into subclades.
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« Reply #182 on: May 07, 2012, 08:36:11 PM »

In what you posted earlier, about Yamnaya mothers teaching R1b sons IE, you seemed to be saying that PIE originated among peoples who were predominantly R1a. .. What I thought we were discussing was who the original IE folk were. If R1b peoples learned it, however early on, from R1a peoples, then R1a is the PIE y haplogroup.

I'm very sorry that you feel that way. It just feeds what you rightly call haplogroup cheerleading. I think it a big mistake to assume that any ethnic group was ever composed of a single haplogroup, except possibly very early in its development, if it began as a single family group.

Yes it is pretty plain that PIE developed from a hunter-gatherer language, which came in contact with farming/stock-keeping. Yes it is pretty plain that it developed around the south Urals. Yes it is pretty plain that those who developed an early form of it were strong in R1a1a, though it is is unlikely that R1a1a was the only Y-DNA haplogroup among them. We can tell this from the predominance of R1a1a in those IE speakers who went east, including the ancestors of the Tocharian-speakers. Those ancestors left c. 3,500 BC and created the copper-working Afanasievo Culture, which  is an offshoot of the culture of the Volga-Ural region.

However the input of the dairy farmers and copper workers of Cucuteni into the composite culture (and therefore PIE as a language of that culture) cannot be denied. The language spread because of the strength and mobility of that culture. By the time that IE-speaking people moved up the Danube c. 3000 BC, evidently R1b was very strong among them. Lactase persistence, which most probably cropped up first among dairy farmers around the Sea of Marmara or Danube delta, travelled east with people strong in R1a1a (and travelled also with Uralic-speakers). That means that R1b and R1a1a people had been inter-mixing. There cannot have been a genetic/cultural/language barrier between them. The barriers had dissolved.  



Are you suggesting Indo-Iranians and tocharians had uralic admixture?
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« Reply #183 on: May 07, 2012, 08:54:36 PM »

It is also possible that Anthony is wrong about the Yamnaya people bringing proto-Italo-Celtic west.  It could just as easily spun off from somewhere in the Cernavoda-Ezero horizon before them.

I doubt it. There is a very clear cultural trail from the steppe up the Danube and into what became Celtic/Italic areas. See my Stelae people map: http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/StelaePeople.jpg

In my efforts to make things succinct and easily understood, I may have conveyed the impression of a very simple story of R1b living only and always in the Balkans and R1a living only and always around the Volga-Urals. This is very obviously not the case.  The reality must have been much more complex. Some R1b ended up in places on the steppe. Some R1a filtered up the rivers into the remnants of Cucuteni villages. Ra1a and R1b could travel together. They very clearly interacted.

Is this the M73? or M269 found in Central Asia?
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« Reply #184 on: June 18, 2012, 01:22:24 PM »

Mostly missing in action are the R1a "elites" who somehow managed to change the speech of almost all of western Europe despite their rather primitive level of civilization.

Who is suggesting that R1a1a elites changed the speech of all western Europe? What idiot would buy into that? This sounds like some garbled mish-mash of the old elite transfer of language concept and the aDNA evidence of continuity of R1a1a from Andronovo to Scythian (Iranian-speaking) graves. If IE languages spread east by mass migration, why try to hang onto the old idea that they spread by elite transfer, but only in the west. You yourself came up with the brilliant deduction years ago that R1b was the other half of the IE story. It was mass migration east and west.

What has changed since then, apart from you getting driven up the wall by Rah-Rah-R1a1a silliness?  

I still think R1b is the IE story to the west, but I don't think the R1bs were first "kurganized" by R1a language donors from the steppe. I think it was the other way around, with R1a steppe folk acquiring their Indo-European from R1b folk who probably arrived in the Balkans from Anatolia.

Aside from that, believe me, there are plenty of idiots (your word) out there who believe Indo-European was propagated in every direction  by R1a elites. Witness Klyosov's recent Rootsweb declarations about R1a "Celts", for example. The main reason I quit posting at the Eupedia y-dna forum was that very sort of thing. I don't mind arguing - I enjoy it, actually - but I don't like being the Lone Ranger.

I realize I am an R1b partisan. I admit it, without shame. But I really don't find the Kurgan Theory as compelling as you apparently do, and I see some gaping holes in it, at least from my perspective.

I don't want to re-post what I wrote in my last post above. What of it? Is Euphratic just Whittaker's silliness, or is it real? If so, would you derive it from the Pontic-Caspian steppe or from nearby eastern Anatolia? He says the textual evidence for it dates from the 4th millennium BC. That's pretty early.

So R1b farming elites managed to spread their language east but it is okto call people who suggest the vice versa idiots? Because believing IE was propagated in every direction by R1b farmers is so much more respectable idea and isn't motivated by any bias? Nice.

I am also curious on what makes an Anatolian origin R1b the PIE group. I wasn't aware R1b dominates Anatolia the way it does Western Euro. Anatolians have much more diversity in their ydnas than Western Europeans. Anatolia=R1b is a ridiculous oversimplification. If you want to go down that Anatolian route be open to the possibility of J2a and G2a being the PIE groups and the idea of J2a and G2a elites. Maybe even J1 , E and T.
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« Reply #185 on: June 18, 2012, 01:25:35 PM »

Mostly missing in action are the R1a "elites" who somehow managed to change the speech of almost all of western Europe despite their rather primitive level of civilization.

Who is suggesting that R1a1a elites changed the speech of all western Europe? What idiot would buy into that? This sounds like some garbled mish-mash of the old elite transfer of language concept and the aDNA evidence of continuity of R1a1a from Andronovo to Scythian (Iranian-speaking) graves.

What has changed since then, apart from you getting driven up the wall by Rah-Rah-R1a1a silliness?



The inherent problem here is connecting graves in Krasnoyarsk, Siberia with PIE, when it is clear that R1a is connected with spreading Iranian languages. I believe Haplogroup C is also found at the grave site.

Nothing is particularly offensive or bothersome about early R1a tribes spreading PIE, but the problem is finding some way to explain the lack of this haplogroup among western/Centum IE speakers. It is much simpler to assume that R1a tribes receive IE from an R1b-rich population, and carry later innovations east.



Yes but somehow there is no problem in having to explain the lack of R1b in Asian IE speakers.
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« Reply #186 on: June 18, 2012, 01:34:03 PM »

the purported (indeed, a stretch of the imagination) theory that the Tarim Basin mummies are Tocharians

(sigh) I knew that would get argued as well. I don't want to be disobliging but this has been argued to absolute death. I have covered the evidence over and over, but if you don't like it you will ignore it again, so why bother?  

I suspect more genetic tests will need to be done to find different strains of R1a in Central Asia. I also think the Tocharians were the ones who picked up R1b-M73 or at least it originally expanded with them.
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« Reply #187 on: June 18, 2012, 02:24:53 PM »

Nevertheless, growing evidence that questions R1a's affinities with PIE will not be censored and will continue to be posted here, much to your chagrin, and to the dismay of many others who may or may not be R1a.

I just want to be clear that although I think R1a was involved in the spread of some IE languages, I don't think that all of the PIE speakers (back at the time before the pre-Germanic, Italic, Celtic, etc. branching) were R1a. I don't know what happened, but it is definitely worth investigating the interaction of R1b and R1a in relation to the spread of IE languages.

On the other hand, R1a's position related to PIE (Proto-IndoEuropean language) does not any way negate the hypotheses based on PIE being a real langage and PIE's homeland being the Pontic Steppes.   By the way, what is a "Kurganist?"  I don't think of myself as one and I don't see the usefulness of pinning labels on people who take a particular position. Labels can sometimes cloud or divert attention from the actual discussion of evidence and logic.

Anyway, I have no prior background (or prejudices) in any of these things but my readings led me to conclude the concept of a PIE is quite likely to be true and that if I had to pick a homeland for PIE, I'd pick the Pontic-Steppes.   Those are just two pieces to a puzzle.  

I don't know how IE languages made it all the way to the Atlantic but there are migrations that could support this.  Just because we can't concretely link those migrations to all Western European languages, Italic, Germanic, Celtic and integrate Euskara into the outcome doesn't mean PIE wasn't real or that PIE didn't originate in the steppes. David Anthony does make an attempt to link PIE to archeologically documented expansions/migrations that link Western IE languages. He admits he is speculating but even if he is wrong on some of these linkages they do not negate, IMO, the high degree of likelihood that PIE was real and PIE's homeland was in the steppes.  I don't know if that is the general consensus, but if it is as Jean says it is, it's just the natural outcome of evidence and logic that are effective.

I think though that a lot of the apparent strength of the case for the steppes for the PIE homeland is predicated by setting up Anatolia as the alternative.  I dont believe these arguements are anywhere near as strong when the alternative to the steppes is the adjacent farming area of the west side of the Black Sea in the Bulgaria/east Romania/Ukraine area. Although this 'third way' has not been formally presented in a recent publication, several fairly new developments including the placing of Anatolian influences and the spread of dairying first into Europe in those area and indeed the importance of that area in the transformation of the steppe hunters do point to its great importance in the period 5000-3500BC.  I dont think it can be emphasised enough how vastly more advanced that area was to the steppes.  Dairying moved both east and west from that area in this period for example and fed both into the steppes and into the mid Neolithic cultures of northern Europe too.  I am a great believer in gut feeling in these things and while I think the Black Sea area probably is where PIE arose I think it would make a lot more sense if we moved the homeland just west of the steppes on the west and NW side of the Black Sea.  I dont think linguistic arguements against Anatolia would stand as arguements against that much more steppe-adjacent area.  I think the pitching of the steppes against Anatolia gives the impression of a false triumph of the Kurgan theory.  As for the steppe hunters I tend to think they were Uralic.

In such a scenario it is entirely possible that both R1a and R1b were in some form present in this area on the west of the Black Sea and had perhaps been there since the 5th millenium BC in the form of L23* and some form of R1a (sorry I dont really know enough about R1a).  

Ah wouldn't you love it if they were Uralic. Yes all R1a is indeed Uralic who learned IE languages from their superior R1b PIE masters.


Unfortunately for you Uralic is a language of the forest not of the steepe. Some Indo-Iranians moved into the forest.  As far as your uralic steepe link goes. your idea of Uralic steepe hunter gatherers was funny indeed.
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« Reply #188 on: June 18, 2012, 02:47:14 PM »

Ah wouldn't you love it if they were Uralic. Yes all R1a is indeed Uralic who learned IE languages form their superior R1b PIE masters.

Unfortunately for you Uralic is a language of the forest not of the steepe. Some Indo-Iranians moved into the forest.  s far as your uralic steepe link goes. your idea of Uralic steepe hunter gatherers was funny indeed.

I don't think there is a need to use this tone of conversation over who is superior or not.  There are probably other blogs where you can find more willing conversants in this.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:47:44 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #189 on: June 18, 2012, 07:34:53 PM »


Yes but somehow there is no problem in having to explain the lack of R1b in Asian IE speakers.

Sure, mainly because we do not attribute the eastern spread of IE to R1b. We are not so fixated on R1b as to do that.

But those who want to attribute the spread of IE entirely to R1a have a big problem in the West.

We don't have a similar problem with R1b in the East because we don't think R1b spread IE to the East. We think R1a did that.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #190 on: June 19, 2012, 10:17:13 AM »


Yes but somehow there is no problem in having to explain the lack of R1b in Asian IE speakers.

Sure, mainly because we do not attribute the eastern spread of IE to R1b. We are not so fixated on R1b as to do that.

But those who want to attribute the spread of IE entirely to R1a have a big problem in the West.

We don't have a similar problem with R1b in the East because we don't think R1b spread IE to the East. We think R1a did that.

The fact that you think R1b spread the language to R1a carriers is telling enough. I'm open to the idea of the steepe being a mixed place and the picture not being so clear cut as one way spread either way.

You are fixated on R1b. Which is why I keep on hearing Anatolia=R1b. Why talk about R1b? If the homeland is Anatolia then J2a is just as likely to be the PIE lineage.

But in your world Anatolian farmers somehow lost their non R1b lineages and managed to spread a hunter gatherer language to hunter gatherers without any trace.
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« Reply #191 on: June 19, 2012, 11:40:33 AM »

Ah wouldn't you love it if they were Uralic. Yes all R1a is indeed Uralic who learned IE languages form their superior R1b PIE masters.

Unfortunately for you Uralic is a language of the forest not of the steepe. Some Indo-Iranians moved into the forest.  s far as your uralic steepe link goes. your idea of Uralic steepe hunter gatherers was funny indeed.

Comment removed by Moderator.  Come on folks - whether you agree or disagree - don't call each other names.  Please keep discussions focused on the ideas and not the personalities
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 08:01:15 AM by Terry Barton » Logged

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« Reply #192 on: June 19, 2012, 11:42:48 AM »

If would be nice if moderators did not tolerate personal attacks of any kind from any quarter.
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« Reply #193 on: June 19, 2012, 12:17:58 PM »

Perhaps that is why they speak so poorly on some of the prominent members on this forum?
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« Reply #194 on: June 19, 2012, 12:24:36 PM »

Nevertheless, growing evidence that questions R1a's affinities with PIE will not be censored and will continue to be posted here, much to your chagrin, and to the dismay of many others who may or may not be R1a.

I just want to be clear that although I think R1a was involved in the spread of some IE languages, I don't think that all of the PIE speakers (back at the time before the pre-Germanic, Italic, Celtic, etc. branching) were R1a. I don't know what happened, but it is definitely worth investigating the interaction of R1b and R1a in relation to the spread of IE languages.

On the other hand, R1a's position related to PIE (Proto-IndoEuropean language) does not any way negate the hypotheses based on PIE being a real langage and PIE's homeland being the Pontic Steppes.   By the way, what is a "Kurganist?"  I don't think of myself as one and I don't see the usefulness of pinning labels on people who take a particular position. Labels can sometimes cloud or divert attention from the actual discussion of evidence and logic.

Anyway, I have no prior background (or prejudices) in any of these things but my readings led me to conclude the concept of a PIE is quite likely to be true and that if I had to pick a homeland for PIE, I'd pick the Pontic-Steppes.   Those are just two pieces to a puzzle.  

I don't know how IE languages made it all the way to the Atlantic but there are migrations that could support this.  Just because we can't concretely link those migrations to all Western European languages, Italic, Germanic, Celtic and integrate Euskara into the outcome doesn't mean PIE wasn't real or that PIE didn't originate in the steppes. David Anthony does make an attempt to link PIE to archeologically documented expansions/migrations that link Western IE languages. He admits he is speculating but even if he is wrong on some of these linkages they do not negate, IMO, the high degree of likelihood that PIE was real and PIE's homeland was in the steppes.  I don't know if that is the general consensus, but if it is as Jean says it is, it's just the natural outcome of evidence and logic that are effective.

I think though that a lot of the apparent strength of the case for the steppes for the PIE homeland is predicated by setting up Anatolia as the alternative.  I dont believe these arguements are anywhere near as strong when the alternative to the steppes is the adjacent farming area of the west side of the Black Sea in the Bulgaria/east Romania/Ukraine area. Although this 'third way' has not been formally presented in a recent publication, several fairly new developments including the placing of Anatolian influences and the spread of dairying first into Europe in those area and indeed the importance of that area in the transformation of the steppe hunters do point to its great importance in the period 5000-3500BC.  I dont think it can be emphasised enough how vastly more advanced that area was to the steppes.  Dairying moved both east and west from that area in this period for example and fed both into the steppes and into the mid Neolithic cultures of northern Europe too.  I am a great believer in gut feeling in these things and while I think the Black Sea area probably is where PIE arose I think it would make a lot more sense if we moved the homeland just west of the steppes on the west and NW side of the Black Sea.  I dont think linguistic arguements against Anatolia would stand as arguements against that much more steppe-adjacent area.  I think the pitching of the steppes against Anatolia gives the impression of a false triumph of the Kurgan theory.  As for the steppe hunters I tend to think they were Uralic.

In such a scenario it is entirely possible that both R1a and R1b were in some form present in this area on the west of the Black Sea and had perhaps been there since the 5th millenium BC in the form of L23* and some form of R1a (sorry I dont really know enough about R1a).  

Ah wouldn't you love it if they were Uralic. Yes all R1a is indeed Uralic who learned IE languages from their superior R1b PIE masters.


Unfortunately for you Uralic is a language of the forest not of the steepe. Some Indo-Iranians moved into the forest.  As far as your uralic steepe link goes. your idea of Uralic steepe hunter gatherers was funny indeed.

I have revised my ideas anyway and no longer think R1b was in the farming zone because the structure of R1b doesnt fit that.  I would now tend to think both were in the steppes albeit distributed differently, perhaps with R1b hugging the Black Sea area.  R1b people seemed to have excellent maritime skills judging from the way L51 spread so I think they were located in a non-farming area north of the Black Sea but also with a maritime culture.  So I would now tend to shift it more towards the actual north shores of the Black Sea just east of the Cucutene=Trypole area.  So there is no point in me debating this and defending something I dont believe in.  However, you could do with brushing up on your people skills a bit in the way you post as others have noted.  Unlike yourself I am pretty dispassionate about this and dont really care what the final truth comes out as.  There is clearly a lot not to admire about the steppes peoples as well as to admire.  Would have been a horrible world for the female half of the population for a start judging by the R1 people's tendancy for the poweful to monopolise women as comodities that seems to be shown by the yDNA trees.    
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rms2
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« Reply #195 on: June 19, 2012, 09:17:10 PM »


Yes but somehow there is no problem in having to explain the lack of R1b in Asian IE speakers.

Sure, mainly because we do not attribute the eastern spread of IE to R1b. We are not so fixated on R1b as to do that.

But those who want to attribute the spread of IE entirely to R1a have a big problem in the West.

We don't have a similar problem with R1b in the East because we don't think R1b spread IE to the East. We think R1a did that.

The fact that you think R1b spread the language to R1a carriers is telling enough. I'm open to the idea of the steepe being a mixed place and the picture not being so clear cut as one way spread either way.

I said that was a possibility, not a certainty. Perhaps R1a spread IE to R1b. Who knows?

You are fixated on R1b.

I am R1b and this is an R1b forum.

Has any of that ever occurred to you?

Which is why I keep on hearing Anatolia=R1b. Why talk about R1b? If the homeland is Anatolia then J2a is just as likely to be the PIE lineage.

But in your world Anatolian farmers somehow lost their non R1b lineages and managed to spread a hunter gatherer language to hunter gatherers without any trace.

You don't know what you are talking about.

We don't usually discuss J2a here. This is an R1b forum. So, we talk mainly about R1b. What a surprise!

As for Anatolia, it does come up from time to time.

I keep hearing about the steppe. There is loads of I2a on the steppe. My own stepson, born in Volgograd, Russia, in the heart of the steppe, is I2a. To use your own words a little differently, if the homeland is the steppe, then I2a is just as likely to be the PIE lineage.
 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 09:18:21 PM by rms2 » Logged

gtc
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« Reply #196 on: June 20, 2012, 07:47:59 AM »

You are fixated on R1b.

I am R1b and this is an R1b forum.

Has any of that ever occurred to you?

Methinks it's time for interestedinhistory to declare his own haplogroup, assuming it is a he.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 07:48:25 AM by gtc » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Mark Jost
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« Reply #197 on: June 20, 2012, 09:16:51 AM »


I have revised my ideas anyway and no longer think R1b was in the farming zone because the structure of R1b doesnt fit that.  I would now tend to think both were in the steppes albeit distributed differently, perhaps with R1b hugging the Black Sea area.  R1b people seemed to have excellent maritime skills judging from the way L51 spread so I think they were located in a non-farming area north of the Black Sea but also with a maritime culture.  So I would now tend to shift it more towards the actual north shores of the Black Sea just east of the Cucutene=Trypole area.  

Alan,

Have you posted an updated summary of your R1b ideas in one location? I seem to not be able to keep up with you.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #198 on: June 21, 2012, 01:00:02 PM »


Yes but somehow there is no problem in having to explain the lack of R1b in Asian IE speakers.

Sure, mainly because we do not attribute the eastern spread of IE to R1b. We are not so fixated on R1b as to do that.

But those who want to attribute the spread of IE entirely to R1a have a big problem in the West.

We don't have a similar problem with R1b in the East because we don't think R1b spread IE to the East. We think R1a did that.

The fact that you think R1b spread the language to R1a carriers is telling enough. I'm open to the idea of the steepe being a mixed place and the picture not being so clear cut as one way spread either way.

I said that was a possibility, not a certainty. Perhaps R1a spread IE to R1b. Who knows?

You are fixated on R1b.

I am R1b and this is an R1b forum.

Has any of that ever occurred to you?

Which is why I keep on hearing Anatolia=R1b. Why talk about R1b? If the homeland is Anatolia then J2a is just as likely to be the PIE lineage.

But in your world Anatolian farmers somehow lost their non R1b lineages and managed to spread a hunter gatherer language to hunter gatherers without any trace.

You don't know what you are talking about.

We don't usually discuss J2a here. This is an R1b forum. So, we talk mainly about R1b. What a surprise!

As for Anatolia, it does come up from time to time.

I keep hearing about the steppe. There is loads of I2a on the steppe. My own stepson, born in Volgograd, Russia, in the heart of the steppe, is I2a. To use your own words a little differently, if the homeland is the steppe, then I2a is just as likely to be the PIE lineage.
 

No I think it is you who doesn't know what you are talking about. Your ignorance is owerwhelming.
It doesn't matter if this is an R1b forum or not. If IE languages are from Anatolia then R1b isn't the only ydna among them because this is an R1b forum. This being an R1b forum makes the non R1b lineages of Anatolia you chose to ignore disappear.

The I2a on the steepe is of recent origins related to the expansion of Slavs. Get over it.

On the other hand the J2a and G in Anatolia aren't of recent origins. In fact they probably originated there along with numerous subclades of J1. Anatolia isn't the steepe and hasn't been subjected to the same population replacements the steepe where groups tend to be mobile has. But it is easy for you to ignore of course.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 01:03:34 PM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #199 on: June 21, 2012, 01:14:56 PM »


Perhaps that is why they speak so poorly on some of the prominent members on this forum?


Your petty, immature insults are getting old.
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