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Title: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 20, 2011, 11:40:33 PM
Some DF21 results came in.

DF21+
f155347___ Hamilton ________________ R-L21/DF21*______ 1722___________ EE764___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim
f20437____ Reynolds_________________ R-L21/DF21/DF5___ 1014-A_________ S5Y63___ zzzUnkOrigin
f75621____ Harriss__________________ R-L21/DF21/DF5___ zzUnassigned___ 6KDDZ___ England, South East, Oxfordshire, Burford
[/quote]

The early research has confirmed that DF5 is downstream of DF21 so I'm counting them.

I've got Hamilton at a GD of 15 over 67 from Harriss and 18 over 67 from Reynolds. I've got Harriss as a GD of 17 from Reynolds so even DF5 is of pretty good age. DF21 could easily be two thousand years old.

I'm using modified infinite allele methods on multi-copy markers so those GD's are somewhat on the conservative side.

This is just a thought, but I wonder if we should send an email blast out to L21* folks. DF21, P314.2 and L513 are quite old so each of them should be evaluated for R-L21* folks?

I can't see much of any common off-modal STRs for between the DF21 folks. I think P314.2 only has one common off-modal STR and the same for L513 so although they are not quite as wide-open, just about anyone could have them.

All three of these SNP subclades have GDs of up into the 20's within the groups. They are old.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2011, 01:45:51 AM
I saw the result for Hamilton, 155347, but not for Reynolds and Harriss, since they aren't members of the R-L21 Plus Project.

Guess I could send out a bulk email on DF21, L513, and P314.2. We've already had a fair number of negatives on those last two and five DF21 negatives this evening.

I have to find a way to word the email so that I am not inundated with emails asking how likely the writer is to be positive for this or that.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2011, 02:03:24 AM
Okay. I just sent out a bulk email to the L21* members of the R-L21 Plus Project asking them to consider testing for DF21, L513, and P314.2. It will probably go out later this morning Houston time, after the folks at FTDNA approve it.



Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: saphorr on July 21, 2011, 04:24:04 PM
I've got Hamilton at a GD of 15 over 67 from Harriss and 18 over 67 from Reynolds. I've got Harriss as a GD of 17 from Reynolds so even DF5 is of pretty good age. DF21 could easily be two thousand years old.

I'm using modified infinite allele methods on multi-copy markers so those GD's are somewhat on the conservative side.

I am Hamilton 155347.  If you want an even more precise estimate you should be able to get 111-marker data for all three of us.

I have 111 markers tested and Harriss has 111-marker data available on the British Isles Project results page.  I can't find any STR data for Reynolds easily, but I strongly suspect he's tested to 111 markers as well.

At the very least, you can do a ySearch comparison between EE764, S5Y63, and 6KDDZ and you'll see we compare at 95 markers, which I think may be all the markers out of the 111-marker set that ySearch can store.

All that said I think what we'll need to get a good estimate is not more markers but more people :).  Now that we know I'm DF21* I am absolutely certain the following four 67-marker profiles are as well, since they are close STR matches and Hamiltons:

MWBDQ
6K6Y6
XF3GE
XFF5T

It may bias your dataset to throw in so many Hamiltons but it's surely better than having just me.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Jdean on July 21, 2011, 07:11:57 PM
I have 111 markers tester and Harriss has 111-marker data available on the British Isles Project results page.  I can't find any STR data for Reynolds easily, but I strongly suspect he's tested to 111 markers as well.

You'll find Reynolds in the WTY project, kit no. 20437, DF5 was found via that project so isn't listed amongst his SNPs


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2011, 07:29:27 PM
Well, the "more people" wish should be fulfilled shortly. A bunch of orders for DF21 (and L513 and P314.2) have come in.

We'll know more in a month or so (maybe sooner, I hope).


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on July 23, 2011, 10:27:49 AM
What do you all know about DF21?

I got an email from someone who mentioned DF21 as "pre-M222".

Have any M222+ guys been tested for DF21? Is DF21 thought to be between L21 and M222 on the tree?


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Jdean on July 23, 2011, 03:12:05 PM
What do you all know about DF21?

I got an email from someone who mentioned DF21 as "pre-M222".

Have any M222+ guys been tested for DF21? Is DF21 thought to be between L21 and M222 on the tree?


I think this person’s getting confused with DF23, easily done with the profusion of new SNPs

1000 Genomes data analsis (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Agq_ez43qXCjdFlxemtlUnZ1Qk01cVhMRVBFcm5WX3c&hl=en&authkey=CIOag_UD#gid=26)


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on July 23, 2011, 05:17:17 PM
What do you all know about DF21?

I got an email from someone who mentioned DF21 as "pre-M222".

Have any M222+ guys been tested for DF21? Is DF21 thought to be between L21 and M222 on the tree?


I think this person’s getting confused with DF23, easily done with the profusion of new SNPs

1000 Genomes data analsis (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Agq_ez43qXCjdFlxemtlUnZ1Qk01cVhMRVBFcm5WX3c&hl=en&authkey=CIOag_UD#gid=26)


Ah, I see.

So, I assume both M222+ and L21+ x M222 have tested positive for DF23, since it is said to be between L21 and M222. Right?

If so, that one might stir some interest.

From what I can tell, FTDNA is not offering it yet. At least, a search of the Advanced Orders menu didn't turn it up.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Jdean on July 23, 2011, 06:55:25 PM
Ah, I see.

So, I assume both M222+ and L21+ x M222 have tested positive for DF23, since it is said to be between L21 and M222. Right?

If so, that one might stir some interest.

From what I can tell, FTDNA is not offering it yet. At least, a search of the Advanced Orders menu didn't turn it up.
I can't imagine they'll hang around, as you say interest should be high with this one.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on July 26, 2011, 09:18:05 PM
We got our second DF21+ result in the R-L21 Plus Project this evening, so I created an R-DF21 category. There are two project members in it thus far: Hamilton (mentioned above) and the newest DF21+, Brooks, kit 48674 (Ysearch 7YQV5).

Brooks' mdka came from Yorkshire.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on July 27, 2011, 03:21:38 PM
Brooks is my "fellow outlier" on the Irish Type III Alex Williamson L-21 tree.  We are the only ones grouped with Irish Typer III that are L226-.  My DF21 test is in progress. 


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 01, 2011, 01:27:35 PM
I just ordered DF21 a few minutes ago. I have no idea whether the result will be DF21+ or DF21-.

"We'll see," said the blind man.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 02, 2011, 09:30:17 PM
I'm just blabbing because I feel like blabbing. I have no idea what my DF21 test result will be, other than either DF21+ or DF21-, but I just read on the Background page of the DF21 Project that one of the 1000 Genomes Project test subjects who got a DF5+ result (and DF5 is downstream of DF21) was from Cornwall in England. Hmmm . . . my surname is very common in Cornwall; it's particularly common in Truro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truro).

That could be meaningless. I don't know that my immigrant ancestor came from Cornwall, and, even if he did, one 1000 Genomes test result doesn't mean that all or even most Cornishmen are DF21+.

Still, I'm grasping for clues . . .

It's kind of fun.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 02, 2011, 11:39:56 PM
What do you all know about DF21?

I got an email from someone who mentioned DF21 as "pre-M222".

Have any M222+ guys been tested for DF21? Is DF21 thought to be between L21 and M222 on the tree?
I think this person’s getting confused with DF23, easily done with the profusion of new SNPs
My understanding is the same as Jdean's.  DF23, not DF21, has been found in both an M222+ and M222- person.  Testing companies haven't declared this but this what researchers think they've seen in the various genome studies.

DF21 might be upstream of something big though... L226. That's what CMBlandford was talking about.  I don't know, there are a couple of common off-modal markers between the L226+ folks and the DF21+ guy who we know is L226-.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Jdean on August 03, 2011, 04:46:15 AM
My understanding is the same as Jdean's.  DF23, not DF21, has been found in both an M222+ and M222- person.  Testing companies haven't declared this but this what researchers think they've seen in the various genome studies.

DF21 might be upstream of something big though... L226. That's what CMBlandford was talking about.  I don't know, there are a couple of common off-modal markers between the L226+ folks and the DF21+ guy who we know is L226-.

I think the pending DF21 test for an R-L226+ chap is the one to watch at the moment, it would be extremely interesting if those two SNPs get tied up together.

Of course we would probably have to go through the 'British SNP' malarkey again but who knows maybe DF21 will turn out to be an ancient British marker though I doubt it :)


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2011, 10:20:45 AM
I look forward to the day when accurate test results can be had in a few days or perhaps a few hours.

Waiting is one of the big downsides to this hobby.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Jdean on August 05, 2011, 11:18:14 AM
I look forward to the day when accurate test results can be had in a few days or perhaps a few hours.

Waiting is one of the big downsides to this hobby.

It can be done, FTDNA seem to be returning results for Z18 (new one under U106) quite literally within a couple of days but I had to wait the full 6 weeks for my DF21.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: GoldenHind on August 05, 2011, 04:53:25 PM
I look forward to the day when accurate test results can be had in a few days or perhaps a few hours.

Waiting is one of the big downsides to this hobby.

It can be done, FTDNA seem to be returning results for Z18 (new one under U106) quite literally within a couple of days but I had to wait the full 6 weeks for my DF21.

My DF19 order is now past the six week estimated date and hence overdue. Some of the L238 orders were several months overdue at one point, and some may well still be. Yet many of the Z196 orders were processed at a fairly rapid rate. I have no idea how FTDNA determines the order they test these new SNPs. It is certainly mystifying.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 08, 2011, 11:30:25 PM
A bunch of DF21 results came in. I've got up to 18 DF21+ people, including the DF5+ folks.
DF21 is significant.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 09, 2011, 12:49:50 AM
A bunch of DF21 results came in. I've got up to 18 DF21+ people, including the DF5+ folks.
DF21 is significant.

Only 13 of them are in the R-L21 Plus Project, one of them DF5+.

It's looking very Isles-ish, but that could just be due, as usual, to a lack of continental test subjects.

A couple of our Spanish guys got DF21 results tonight, though, but both of them were negative.

I'm still waiting for my result.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 09, 2011, 12:53:48 AM
A bunch of DF21 results came in. I've got up to 18 DF21+ people, including the DF5+ folks.
DF21 is significant.

Only 13 of them are in the R-L21 Plus Project, one of them DF5+.

It's looking very Isles-ish, but that could just be due, as usual, to a lack of continental test subjects.

A couple of our Spanish guys got DF21 results tonight, though, but both of them were negative.

I'm still waiting for my result.


Oh, and one German got his DF21 result, too, but it was also negative.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 09, 2011, 07:31:17 AM
Unless I miscounted, there were 61 new DF21 results in the R-L21 Plus Project last evening, with 10 positive and 51 negative. That's 16% positive, 84% negative. (There was one additional DF21 result - positive - but it was for a man who had already tested DF5+ and so was known to be DF21+ before last night's results came in.)

All of the positives either have ancestry in the British Isles or British Isles surnames.

There were just three continental results - two Spaniards and one German - and they were negative. There was one who is not sure of his European ancestry but whose surname appears to be French. He was also negative.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 09, 2011, 06:39:42 PM
A few more DF21 results have come in, and there may be more before the evening is over. Anyway, one of those that has come in is for another continental, a Norwegian this time, and he is DF21-.

So, thus far, DF21 is 0 for 4 when it comes to continental Europeans.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Jdean on August 09, 2011, 06:44:36 PM
A few more DF21 results have come in, and there may be more before the evening is over. Anyway, one of those that has come in is for another continental, a Norwegian this time, and he is DF21-.

So, thus far, DF21 is 0 for 4 when it comes to continental Europeans.

Interestingly it has been reported over on DNA-Forums that a Little Scots Cluster chap is DF21+ whilst somebody who's Scots Modal is neg.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 09, 2011, 06:59:06 PM
A few more DF21 results have come in, and there may be more before the evening is over. Anyway, one of those that has come in is for another continental, a Norwegian this time, and he is DF21-.

So, thus far, DF21 is 0 for 4 when it comes to continental Europeans.

Interestingly it has been reported over on DNA-Forums that a Little Scots Cluster chap is DF21+ whilst somebody who's Scots Modal is neg.

You know, I have not systematically checked this, but it struck me last night when I was going through results that Scots from the old Pictish areas were coming up negative, while the others - Dalriadans? - were more likely to get a positive result.

Now that is just a first impression. I haven't checked into it. I could be wrong, but what you just said about the Scots Modal man being DF21- would seem to support it, if the Scots Modal is thought of as a Pictish signature.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Jdean on August 09, 2011, 07:17:24 PM
You know, I have not systematically checked this, but it struck me last night when I was going through results that Scots from the old Pictish areas were coming up negative, while the others - Dalriadans? - were more likely to get a positive result.

Now that is just a first impression. I haven't checked into it. I could be wrong, but what you just said about the Scots Modal man being DF21- would seem to support it, if the Scots Modal is thought of as a Pictish signature.

It would be very interesting if your casual observation panned out. Who knows maybe DF21 will end up being a Scottish SNP, it does seem very Isles based at the moment.

Uh oh I just had deja vu :)


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2011, 07:19:12 AM
Once there are enough DF21+ results, it will be interesting to see which region has the highest haplotype variance.

Thus far, I don't see anyone who is DF21+ with a haplotype similar to mine. But that might not mean anything, if DF21 is old enough.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2011, 07:46:12 AM
Don't know why I'm getting so interested in DF21. I'll probably be negative for it.

Ah, well. There's always DF23, if FTDNA ever starts testing for it. It would be kind of cool to be on the branch leading from L21 to M222.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Jdean on August 10, 2011, 08:28:47 AM
Don't know why I'm getting so interested in DF21. I'll probably be negative for it.

Ah, well. There's always DF23, if FTDNA ever starts testing for it. It would be kind of cool to be on the branch leading from L21 to M222.

There are a few SNPs identified in the 1000 Genome project probably worth considering for us R-L21* folks when FTDNA get round to adding them to their list.

Z251, Z252 & Z254

 L21 Candidate SNPs (http://www.box.net/shared/qljxuisx9a)


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on August 10, 2011, 02:56:46 PM
Quote
L21 Candidate SNPs

What is the meaning of "Irish Genome" branched from DF21?


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Jdean on August 10, 2011, 03:57:48 PM
What is the meaning of "Irish Genome" branched from DF21?

The Irish Genome is a publicly available complete (?) genome sequence anonymously donated by somebody of Irish decent.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on August 10, 2011, 04:26:02 PM
I don't understand why it is shown branched from DF21.  Obviously something I am missing at the moment.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2011, 06:29:34 PM
I don't understand why it is shown branched from DF21.  Obviously something I am missing at the moment.

There was a report, I think from September of last year, on the fully sequenced genome of an Irishman. It turns out he is DF21+, as I understand it.

I don't know why that's on the chart either.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Jdean on August 10, 2011, 07:26:06 PM
I don't understand why it is shown branched from DF21.  Obviously something I am missing at the moment.


He's shown there because he's DF21 positive but negative for DF5.

Other people have been found who DF21* as well now.

It's starting to look like DF21 is going to be a pretty major branch of R-L21 :)


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: OConnor on August 15, 2011, 07:19:39 AM
I have tested for DF21

Batch 425
Results due Sept 26


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: MHammers on August 16, 2011, 03:04:17 PM
I received my DF21- result today.  Are there any ideas what DF21 + or - means in terms of L21 history?


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 16, 2011, 04:57:22 PM
I received my DF21- result today.  Are there any ideas what DF21 + or - means in terms of L21 history?
I think it may be more like "prehistory".  DF21 has no consistent haplotype signature other than to say its modal is L21's. DF21 is scattered across the British Isles along with the rest of L21. I don't think it has been found on the continent yet, but it's off to a pretty fast start.  I think that all just means it is old.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: OConnor on August 17, 2011, 12:38:42 AM
I suspect it will be found in Norway if it is found in substancial numbers in the Isles


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 17, 2011, 01:58:02 PM
So, can anyone quickly list which of the big clusters are positive and negative for this.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: seferhabahir on August 17, 2011, 11:30:44 PM
So, can anyone quickly list which of the big clusters are positive and negative for this.

The following is from David Reynolds' DF21 Project Background Page...

Predicted DF21+ Clusters
21-1014-A
21-1169-A
21-1169-B
21-1722
21-3016
21-49211 includes Ely Carrol
21-LS (was 1030-A-Sc-LS) Little Scots

Predicted DF21- Clusters
711
1014
1014-B
1014-Loc
1030
1030-A-Sc
1030-A-Sc-24 Scots Modal
1111EE
1130-A-1
1130-B
1210SP
1226
14N-B-WSW
14N-C
1413
1416-N
1422
1426
1511
1511-A-T2 South Irish aka Irish Type II
1515-Who
2117
2510
921-B
9919-A Double-9 Double-19


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: saphorr on August 24, 2011, 05:12:10 PM
As David has reported on dna-forums and the R-L21 list, we have today our first continental DF21+ result:
Kaptein (E9807), from the Netherlands.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 24, 2011, 07:26:50 PM
As David has reported on dna-forums and the R-L21 list, we have today our first continental DF21+ result:
Kaptein (E9807), from the Netherlands.

Yeah, that's true. There were a bunch of continental DF21 results today, all of them negative, except for Kaptein.

In fact, there were quite a few DF21 results in general today, and Kaptein's was the only positive.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 24, 2011, 07:44:05 PM
As David has reported on dna-forums and the R-L21 list, we have today our first continental DF21+ result:
Kaptein (E9807), from the Netherlands.

Yeah, that's true. There were a bunch of continental DF21 results today, all of them negative, except for Kaptein.

In fact, there were quite a few DF21 results in general today, and Kaptein's was the only positive.

I count ten continental DF21 results this evening, all negative except for Kaptein of the Netherlands.

Of the nine negatives, five were French and four were German.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 25, 2011, 06:26:33 PM
I could have missed somebody, but I went back and counted the number of continental European DF21 results thus far. There have been 17, all negative but one, Kaptein of the Netherlands.

Here's the breakdown of the negative results.

Denmark  -  1

France  -  6

Germany  -  5

Norway  -  1

Spain  -  3


There are currently 13 men of continental European descent awaiting DF21 results. Here's the breakdown by country on those waiting on DF21 results.

Denmark  -  1

France  -  3

Germany  -  7

Norway  -  1

Switzerland  -  1




Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: seferhabahir on August 25, 2011, 10:13:42 PM
I could have missed somebody, but I went back and counted the number of continental European DF21 results thus far. There have been 17, all negative but one, Kaptein of the Netherlands.

Does Belarus count as continental? I tested DF21- and am certainly not from the Isles.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: NealtheRed on August 25, 2011, 10:24:56 PM
One of our Isle of Man L159.2+ samples tested DF21- today.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 26, 2011, 08:10:43 AM
I could have missed somebody, but I went back and counted the number of continental European DF21 results thus far. There have been 17, all negative but one, Kaptein of the Netherlands.

Does Belarus count as continental? I tested DF21- and am certainly not from the Isles.

Sorry. I said I might have missed someone in my counting, and evidently I did.

Here's the revised breakdown of continental DF21- results.

Belarus  -  1

Denmark  -  1

France  -  6

Germany  -  5

Norway  -  1

Spain  -  3


So, out of 18 continental European DF21 test results, just one has been DF21+, Kaptein of the Netherlands.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 26, 2011, 08:33:15 PM
Well, I was hoping I would get my DF21 result today, although it's not due until 19 September. Looks like it isn't going to happen. Sigh . . .

I hate waiting.

I'm not sure how I feel about this one. It's kind of all the same to me, negative result or positive result, except that I don't like to part with money for negative results. So, for that reason, I hope I am DF21+, but I won't be brokenhearted if I am DF21-.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Wilco on August 28, 2011, 07:50:16 AM
I could have missed somebody, but I went back and counted the number of continental European DF21 results thus far. There have been 17, all negative but one, Kaptein of the Netherlands.

Does Belarus count as continental? I tested DF21- and am certainly not from the Isles.

I think guys from the Netherlands and close to Kaptein on 67 markers have the best change to be DF21+

So far Kaptein is the only Dutch guy to have been tested on DF21


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 30, 2011, 02:29:31 PM
So far today, two more Germans, a Frenchman, and a Dane have gotten DF21 results - all of them negative.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 30, 2011, 07:25:13 PM
So far today, two more Germans, a Frenchman, and a Dane have gotten DF21 results - all of them negative.

Two more Germans and one more Frenchman have gotten DF21- results since that earlier post.

So here are the updated continental DF21 results thus far:

DF21-

Belarus  -  1

Denmark  -  2

France  -  8

Germany  -  9

Norway  -  1

Spain  -  3

DF21+

Netherlands  -  1


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 31, 2011, 09:35:40 AM
Big news for DF21. I think everyone knows I can't find a single STR that is off-modal for all DF21+ founds. There is no single off-modal signature, just L21 All's modal itself.  This is an implication of old age. The large GD's between DF21+ is another indicator of old age.

The new news is a 425=null 511=9 guy has come up DF21+. The Little Scots already came in as DF21+ but 425n9 is much larger. They have their own project called the Clan Colla project.

Clan Colla Null 425 project  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/clancolla425null/default.aspx

"DNA of the Three Collas" at: http://www.peterspioneers.com/colla.htm

I'm neutral on the Three Collas - I don't know what is true or not.

The following is from David Reynolds' DF21 Project Background Page...

Predicted DF21+ Clusters
21-1014-A
21-1169-A
21-1169-B
21-1722
21-3016
21-49211 includes Ely Carrol
21-LS (was 1030-A-Sc-LS) Little Scots
......


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 31, 2011, 01:13:01 PM
I saw that last night and wondered about the implications of it. I don't know much about the whole Colla thing either.

DF21 is not doing too well on the Continent. That could change, but thus far there are no real indications (beyond the single Dutch hit) that it will.

I haven't made an exact count (and probably won't), but it seems to me the DF21 negatives far outnumber the DF21 positives. Last time I was counting, I think the positives were running at about 15% of the total.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 31, 2011, 05:20:51 PM
... DF21 is not doing too well on the Continent. That could change, but thus far there are no real indications (beyond the single Dutch hit) that it will....

That brings up a good point. How many WTY L21 people are from the continent? Perhaps that's where we should look for old SNPs under L21?


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 31, 2011, 05:27:54 PM
... DF21 is not doing too well on the Continent. That could change, but thus far there are no real indications (beyond the single Dutch hit) that it will....

That brings up a good point. How many WTY L21 people are from the continent? Perhaps that's where we should look for old SNPs under L21?

I think a few of them are in the L21 WTY, but I don't know how many. I agree with you.

I just got my DF21 result. I am DF21-, so there goes my budding fascination with it!

It's just as well. I'm holding out for DF23 and hoping for a positive result on that one. I kind of always wanted to be M222+. A DF23+ result would be the next best thing. :-)


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: GoldenHind on August 31, 2011, 07:01:18 PM
... DF21 is not doing too well on the Continent. That could change, but thus far there are no real indications (beyond the single Dutch hit) that it will....

That brings up a good point. How many WTY L21 people are from the continent? Perhaps that's where we should look for old SNPs under L21?

I think a few of them are in the L21 WTY, but I don't know how many. I agree with you.

I just got my DF21 result. I am DF21-, so there goes my budding fascination with it!

It's just as well. I'm holding out for DF23 and hoping for a positive result on that one. I kind of always wanted to be M222+. A DF23+ result would be the next best thing. :-)

Well at least you got a result. I ordered DF19 back in June, and it was due 8/1, and still no result.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Heber on August 31, 2011, 07:03:58 PM
Clan Colla were from the Kingdom of Airghilla which roughly corresponds to modern day Monaghan, Armagh, Louth and parts of Fermanagh. This is where my ancient ancestors came from in the 6th C. One of my closest matches on FTDNA is Mc Mahon of Clan Colla. Clan Donald of Dal Riada claim decent from Clan Colla. Clan Colla were directly related to Niall of the Nine Hostages (sons???).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airg%C3%ADalla

A genealogy of the Three Colla's is given here.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/colla.htm

Edit. Waiting for DF23 availability.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on August 31, 2011, 07:22:07 PM
DF23? I don't see that FTDNA is testing for it yet.

Did you order it from someone else?


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Heber on August 31, 2011, 08:49:46 PM
Rich,
Thanks for pointing that out. I have corrected the post.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2011, 07:14:18 AM
Rich,
Thanks for pointing that out. I have corrected the post.

I'm waiting for DF23, too. I'll probably be negative for it, but it would be nice to get a positive result.

I wrote FTDNA yesterday evening asking when they plan to offer it.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: eochaidh on September 01, 2011, 01:49:19 PM
I too am waiting for DF23 and hoping that my DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 are an indication of a pre-M222+ Haplotype. I have recently tested L513- and have ordered DF21. Of course, if I come up DF21+ then I believe that negates my chance of being DF23+


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2011, 02:09:54 PM
I too am waiting for DF23 and hoping that my DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 are an indication of a pre-M222+ Haplotype. I have recently tested L513- and have ordered DF21. Of course, if I come up DF21+ then I believe that negates my chance of being DF23+

I thought of you when I first heard about DF23. It occurred to me that if anyone ought to be DF23+ based on haplotype, it's you.

I want to be DF23+, just because I've always thought M222 is glamorous (yeah, I do). John Wayne (Marion M. Morrison) was M222+, and DF23 is supposed to be between L21 and M222, but my haplotype gives no indication that I will get my wish.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2011, 02:24:47 PM
... DF21 is not doing too well on the Continent. That could change, but thus far there are no real indications (beyond the single Dutch hit) that it will....

That brings up a good point. How many WTY L21 people are from the continent? Perhaps that's where we should look for old SNPs under L21?

I think a few of them are in the L21 WTY, but I don't know how many. I agree with you.

I just got my DF21 result. I am DF21-, so there goes my budding fascination with it!

It's just as well. I'm holding out for DF23 and hoping for a positive result on that one. I kind of always wanted to be M222+. A DF23+ result would be the next best thing. :-)

Well at least you got a result. I ordered DF19 back in June, and it was due 8/1, and still no result.

You should contact FTDNA. They might need some new samples from you.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: eochaidh on September 01, 2011, 05:11:09 PM
I too am waiting for DF23 and hoping that my DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 are an indication of a pre-M222+ Haplotype. I have recently tested L513- and have ordered DF21. Of course, if I come up DF21+ then I believe that negates my chance of being DF23+

I thought of you when I first heard about DF23. It occurred to me that if anyone ought to be DF23+ based on haplotype, it's you.

I want to be DF23+, just because I've always thought M222 is glamorous (yeah, I do). John Wayne (Marion M. Morrison) was M222+, and DF23 is supposed to be between L21 and M222, but my haplotype gives no indication that I will get my wish.

Yea, I'll admit to always wanting to be M222+ as well :) 

Mike W. has found a guy whose Haplotype is amazingly close to M222+ I think the guy's closest matches at 67 markers are M222+!

Well if not us, some lucky guys  LOL


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 02, 2011, 08:43:48 AM
I too am waiting for DF23 and hoping that my DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 are an indication of a pre-M222+ Haplotype. I have recently tested L513- and have ordered DF21. Of course, if I come up DF21+ then I believe that negates my chance of being DF23+

I thought of you when I first heard about DF23. It occurred to me that if anyone ought to be DF23+ based on haplotype, it's you.

I want to be DF23+, just because I've always thought M222 is glamorous (yeah, I do). John Wayne (Marion M. Morrison) was M222+, and DF23 is supposed to be between L21 and M222, but my haplotype gives no indication that I will get my wish.
Assuming DF23+ includes M222, it'll be very interesting to see what M222- guys are DF23+. There is potential in it to support Jean M's theory on M222 coming from La Tene... if we found DF23+ in Germany.  I don't really see likely haplotypes there, though.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 02, 2011, 11:32:03 AM
I too am waiting for DF23 and hoping that my DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 are an indication of a pre-M222+ Haplotype. I have recently tested L513- and have ordered DF21. Of course, if I come up DF21+ then I believe that negates my chance of being DF23+

I thought of you when I first heard about DF23. It occurred to me that if anyone ought to be DF23+ based on haplotype, it's you.

I want to be DF23+, just because I've always thought M222 is glamorous (yeah, I do). John Wayne (Marion M. Morrison) was M222+, and DF23 is supposed to be between L21 and M222, but my haplotype gives no indication that I will get my wish.

Yea, I'll admit to always wanting to be M222+ as well :) 

Mike W. has found a guy whose Haplotype is amazingly close to M222+ I think the guy's closest matches at 67 markers are M222+!

Well if not us, some lucky guys  LOL

When an M222+ and and M222- guy are close at 67 markers does that not seem odd if M222 happened nearly 1500- 2000 years ago? Should people match closely with someone with whom there TMRCA is 1500-2000 years ago? Is it possible for SNPs to be lost? 


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 02, 2011, 11:48:18 AM
If DF23 really is pre-M222 then from what I understand pre-M222 in STR terms tends to be found in SW Scotland and M222 itself is found there too.  My throwaway hunch is that DF23 will be found in L21 in SW Scotland/northern England.  That would also not be totally out of keeping with Jean's La Tene theory.  Although Irish La Tene does seem to have some aspects that slightly differ from British and are more like the continent (think its was the Rhine and Switzerland), much of it is comparable with northern England and its fair to say on simple Geography alone its hard to image any route from the continent to the northern half of Ireland that would not have been via Britain.  

I suppose that leaves the question of the root of DF23 and whether it occurred in northern England/SW Scotland or the continent before that.  If there is a continental link then all I can think off is the Arras culture associated with the Parisii tribe and its connections with the tribe of the same name on the River Seine in France. So maybe some DF23 will be found there.  Total guessology though! 

There are other possibilities like it being slightly later and being linked to the Damnoni of SW Scotland and some of the Fir Domnain peoples in Ireland (including NW Connaught). I often wonder if the Fir Domnain in Ireland did not include both Dumnoni (from SW England) and Damnoni.  It would make geographical sense if the Fir Domnain of the NW were Damnoni and the people of the same name in Leinster were Dumnoni.  Anyway, it is a bit of a coincidence that the Damnoni of SW Scotland and the north of Connaught (where some of the Fir Domnain were located) but have associations with M222.  I think the Fir Domnain were the tribe of Connaughts champion Ferdia who fought Cuchullain in the Ulster Cycle legends.  I have always had a suspicion that the Ui Neill's real origin was as an offshoot of them but I have no real evidence. 


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: eochaidh on September 02, 2011, 06:10:04 PM
When I use Mike's L21 Worksheet and enter DYS390=25, DYS449=30 and DYS481=24 (and enter DYS385b=14 to weed out M222+), I get:

Corrigan, Ireland
McCormick, Ireland
Burns, Ireland
McGuire, Unknown
Bennett, Unknown
Kehoe, Ireland (me)

Corrigan, McCormick, Burns and McGuire also have DYS448=18, while Bennet and I have DYS413a=21/22 respectively.

My family is from Co. Wexford (Leinster), but my closest matches  are, 7 from Ulster and 1 from Scotland. Oh yea, and 1 from Italy...

Hey, these could be possible DF23+...... we'll see.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2011, 07:56:37 PM
I heard back from FTDNA today that the initial tests on DF23 have failed, but they're going to try again. We should have an update in about three weeks.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: eochaidh on September 02, 2011, 08:58:18 PM
I heard back from FTDNA today that the initial tests on DF23 have failed, but they're going to try again. We should have an update in about three weeks.

Oh well, we
 wait and hope for the best... in the meantime I should come back DF21-


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2011, 09:05:35 PM
I heard back from FTDNA today that the initial tests on DF23 have failed, but they're going to try again. We should have an update in about three weeks.

Oh well, we
 wait and hope for the best... in the meantime I should come back DF21-


Good things come to those who wait . . . I guess.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: OConnor on September 02, 2011, 10:45:19 PM
There are 2 results of DF21- from the R-L159.2 Project.

One member is 464x=CCCg, the other is 464x=CCgg


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on September 04, 2011, 06:49:43 AM
I am a little puzzled by this, but a guy who has already tested P314.2+ got a DF21+ result. I'm not sure if that is an error or if it means P314.2 is downstream of DF21. It cannot mean the reverse, because some of the DF21+ guys have already tested P314.2-.


Title: Re: New SNPs for L21* folks - DF21
Post by: rms2 on September 10, 2011, 03:43:39 PM
I was informed recently that DF5 is downstream of DF25. Maybe you all knew that, but I did not.

It's hard to keep up with all of the new SNPs coming at us now.

Remember when so many of us were "R1b1c" (R-M269) and some folks were telling us that was it, there were no more SNPs to be discovered?