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Title: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 10, 2011, 08:52:21 AM
I probably shouldn't mention this, because it could be a flash in the pan, but here goes.

A couple of days ago I joined Ancestry.com (for the genealogy part, not the dna testing). So far, I have enjoyed it and have even been able to expand a couple of my lines, like my maternal grandmother's, which has really taken off. Anyway, Ancestry allows one to enter his y-dna str markers even if he tested with another company, like FTDNA, and check for matches. Well, I entered mine and got an exact 27-marker match with a man listed as "Anonymous" but whose published family tree shows his y-dna line has the surname Stevens (that's my surname). He has his y-dna line traced back further than mine, to 1707 and Connecticut (I can only get mine to 1804 and West Virginia).

I don't recognize any of the names (other than the surname Stevens) in his family tree, but that's probably a good thing.

I sent him a message, but so far he hasn't responded.

Could be something or maybe not.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 10, 2011, 02:14:48 PM
My match contacted me. We do have an exact 27-marker match and share the same surname. Unfortunately, he tested with Ancestry.com and only has the 27 markers (apparently he has 33 markers, but 6 of them are markers I was not tested for by FTDNA). I am hoping he will go with FTDNA and upgrade to at least 37 markers. Of course, 67 would be even nicer.

We'll see.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: GoldenHind on July 10, 2011, 03:40:42 PM

Congratulations! It appears to me that it is highly probable your two families have a common origin, though of course the link could be in England and not Connecticut. 

I have two fairly close matches to my very rare haplotype on Ancestry. They have English surnames, but their ancestry doesn't go beyond the USA. I tried contacting them, but they never responded.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 10, 2011, 06:55:49 PM
Thanks!

My match and I are in email contact now, and he says he is considering upgrading via Family Tree DNA. I don't want to get my hopes up, but too late for that. They're up.

I sent him FTDNA's promotional flyer offering a reduced price for people who have already tested with Ancestry.

I hope he goes for the 67-marker test, but I would be thrilled with 37.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: OConnor on July 11, 2011, 05:59:24 AM
great news Rich. I hope this pans out for you.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 11, 2011, 07:24:00 AM
great news Rich. I hope this pans out for you.

Thanks. I hope so, too.

He seems genuinely interested, so I hope he will order the upgrade soon.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Heber on July 11, 2011, 08:44:57 AM
I probably shouldn't mention this, because it could be a flash in the pan, but here goes.

A couple of days ago I joined Ancestry.com (for the genealogy part, not the dna testing). So far, I have enjoyed it and have even been able to expand a couple of my lines, like my maternal grandmother's, which has really taken off. Anyway, Ancestry allows one to enter his y-dna str markers even if he tested with another company, like FTDNA, and check for matches. Well, I entered mine and got an exact 27-marker match with a man listed as "Anonymous" but whose published family tree shows his y-dna line has the surname Stevens (that's my surname). He has his y-dna line traced back further than mine, to 1707 and Connecticut (I can only get mine to 1804 and West Virginia).

I don't recognize any of the names (other than the surname Stevens) in his family tree, but that's probably a good thing.

I sent him a message, but so far he hasn't responded.

Could be something or maybe not.

Rich,

I had a similar case with a resident of Tuscon, AZ, born in MN, matching my surname, Corcoran, which is not common. It led to a whole series of discoveries in Minnesota and beyond including the original Irish settlers in Minnesota and a town called Corcoran and Green Isle, MN and also including adopted matches. It turns out he originated in the same village as my gggggg grandfather and probably the same house which is still there. He sent me his detailed family tree (over 100 pages) which greatly enhanced my own and led to new areas of investigation.
For my part, I sent him copies of his ancestors (decendants) census records in their original hand writing, grave records and photos, pictures of the house and a detailed genealogy of this family.
I'm sure you will find you match your new cousin and good look in your quest.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 11, 2011, 07:40:38 PM
Thanks, Heber!

Wish he knew as much as your guy does, but neither of us can get our y-dna line out of North America.

Still, it may open up some avenues for investigation.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2011, 09:33:59 PM
I haven't heard anything from my match at Ancestry.com lately (he went on vacation and I don't know if he's back yet), however, I just got notified by FTDNA of a new exact 25-marker match, and this new match has a variant of my surname. He spells his version Stephens, and my surname is Stevens. I count that as something to get worked up about, at least a little.

I'm hoping he has 67 markers on order and the 25-marker match is just a prelude to bigger and better things to come.

It would be nice if this led to something, but it's hoping for a lot to get a match with someone of the same surname or a variant who not only knows more about your ancestry than you do but who is also just as interested in this stuff. So far, I haven't hit that lottery.

But it's fun to get an exciting new match now and then.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: A.D. on July 27, 2011, 09:53:41 PM
glad to hear it rms2.
I did mention some time ago about surnames being miss spelt on arrival in thr U.S.
It would be well worth checking out people with the alternate spelling
Good Luck


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2011, 07:25:11 AM
glad to hear it rms2.
I did mention some time ago about surnames being miss spelt on arrival in thr U.S.
It would be well worth checking out people with the alternate spelling
Good Luck

Thanks!

I agree with you about spelling variations. Those old folks and old record keepers and census takers were terrible spellers, or it seems spelling was not that important to them. The sound of a name was the thing.

Just the same, oddly enough, my family seems to have always spelled our surname Stevens with a "v". It is that way in the census records I can find and on my most distant y-dna ancestor's gravestone (which I photographed back in 1989).

Still, I suspect it could very well have originally been Stephens or spelled that way by some of the lines.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: GoldenHind on July 28, 2011, 05:04:31 PM
glad to hear it rms2.
I did mention some time ago about surnames being miss spelt on arrival in thr U.S.
It would be well worth checking out people with the alternate spelling
Good Luck

Thanks!

I agree with you about spelling variations. Those old folks and old record keepers and census takers were terrible spellers, or it seems spelling was not that important to them. The sound of a name was the thing.

Just the same, oddly enough, my family seems to have always spelled our surname Stevens with a "v". It is that way in the census records I can find and on my most distant y-dna ancestor's gravestone (which I photographed back in 1989).

Still, I suspect it could very well have originally been Stephens or spelled that way by some of the lines.


Keep in mind that most people were illiterate until fairly modern times, as well as the fact that there was no set spelling of anything, including surnames. Things were just spelled phonetically, at the whim of whoever was doing the writing. Thus in older parish records I have seen some of my ancestral surnames spelled in various ways, depending on the literacy or the whim of the parish clerk who was recording the entry. Spelling of surnames didn't become set until fairly recent times, so this variant could easily have a connection to you from say the 17th century.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2011, 09:43:19 PM
I found out the gentleman has 37 markers on order (he joined the Stephens/Stevens Project), so I should get a better indication of the possible significance of the match very soon.

On the down side, however, he has not yet answered my email. :-(

Sigh . . .


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 28, 2011, 11:23:58 PM
glad to hear it rms2.
I did mention some time ago about surnames being miss spelt on arrival in thr U.S.
It would be well worth checking out people with the alternate spelling
Good Luck

Thanks!

I agree with you about spelling variations. Those old folks and old record keepers and census takers were terrible spellers, or it seems spelling was not that important to them. The sound of a name was the thing.

Just the same, oddly enough, my family seems to have always spelled our surname Stevens with a "v". It is that way in the census records I can find and on my most distant y-dna ancestor's gravestone (which I photographed back in 1989).

Still, I suspect it could very well have originally been Stephens or spelled that way by some of the lines.


Keep in mind that most people were illiterate until fairly modern times, as well as the fact that there was no set spelling of anything, including surnames. Things were just spelled phonetically, at the whim of whoever was doing the writing. Thus in older parish records I have seen some of my ancestral surnames spelled in various ways, depending on the literacy or the whim of the parish clerk who was recording the entry. Spelling of surnames didn't become set until fairly recent times, so this variant could easily have a connection to you from say the 17th century.
In addition, immigrants may not have (or still) spoke English well and may have been hard to understand to a census taker who was in a hurry.

I can see on my wife's side, census takers in Florida in different decades were writing down Eduardo, Edward, Ed for a first name and had surname as Henriquez and Enriquez for the same. Her grandmother is from Greece and I always thought spelled her name Catherine because that is what she has on all documents that I've seen.... but I found out it really was Katherine but when she immigrated the US officials wrote it down wrong and she didn't understand or didn't double check.. probably just happy there were no hitches.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 29, 2011, 05:21:04 PM
My FTDNA exact 25-marker match with Mr. Stephens just went to 35/37.

I would pay for an upgrade to 67 markers for a match in this sort of scenario who could get his line back across the Pond, but this man hasn't even responded to my email yet.

So, I guess it is what it is.

The gd of two comes at CDYa/b where he has 37-39 and I have 38-38. That's a fast mutator.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 30, 2011, 01:12:49 AM
I think you are very close to him, certainly he belongs to your family line.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 30, 2011, 07:49:19 AM
I think you are very close to him, certainly he belongs to your family line.

Thanks! I agree.

I finally heard from the man's daughter, who is the one actually handling the dna testing and the one interested in the family history. She says an upgrade to 67 markers is planned for the future.

Her email came in yesterday evening, but I was busy last night and did not see it until this morning. It says she will send me some family information today. I'm really looking forward to seeing it.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: saphorr on July 30, 2011, 12:31:43 PM
Thanks! I agree.

I finally heard from the man's daughter, who is the one actually handling the dna testing and the one interested in the family history. She says an upgrade to 67 markers is planned for the future.

Her email came in yesterday evening, but I was busy last night and did not see it until this morning. It says she will send me some family information today. I'm really looking forward to seeing it.

Exciting stuff, especially for someone as involved with Y-DNA research as you are to only now get a good match.  Congrats and here's hoping you learn something new and interesting.

The spelling variation is certainly not any kind of red flag.  Any English surname more than a couple of centuries old has variant spelling of some kinds, and people adopted spellings and even pronunciations of their own preference.

One surname in my wife's family is Wreford, originally of Devon.  This is the most common spelling now but you can also find Wreforde, Wreyford, Wreyforde, Wrayford, and Wrayforde, but whatever the DNA might say (and there is no surname project as yet) the name certainly originates in Devon supporting the idea that these are all variant spellings and not independent inventions.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on July 31, 2011, 07:47:14 AM
Oh, I've gotten other good matches. The first was a second cousin, once removed. We have an exact 37-marker match. Since our nearest common y-dna ancestor was my great-great-grandfather, that confirmed our descent from him.

Then I got a 65/67 match with a man born in Worcester, England, but whose surname is different from my own. He apparently does not match the others of his surname in their dna project, so I think he could be a Stevens. I'll probably never know, because he is elderly, unhappy about not matching others of his surname, and that whole project is private, viewable only by its administrator. Talk about lame! I can't believe anyone would bother to participate in a project that only the admin can see. But that's another topic.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on August 04, 2011, 11:12:57 AM
I did hear from my FTDNA 35/37 match (the one with the ph spelling, Stephens). The lady handling the dna testing and genealogy says they can trace their most distant known y-dna ancestor to 1789 and Caswell County, North Carolina, which is one of the northern counties, right on the Virginia border (just south of Danville, Virginia).

My Stevens match from Ancestry has been back in touch with me, as well. It turns out the connection to Connecticut in 1707 was speculative; he can really only get his y-dna line to Pennsylvania and 1795. My family was in that same neck of the woods around that same time.

Neither of these matches looks likely to get me to my immigrant ancestor. My feeling is that we are all descended from the same British Isles immigrant who probably came to Virginia(?) sometime in the late 1600s. By the time you get to 1789, our y-dna line had been here in America for about a hundred years already, or three to four generations: plenty of time to spread and branch out into different areas.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2011, 05:04:54 PM
Well, my Ancestry.com match has ordered a 67-marker test from FTDNA. I hope our match holds up.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Jdean on August 05, 2011, 05:27:00 PM
Well, my Ancestry.com match has ordered a 67-marker test from FTDNA. I hope our match holds up.

Great news Rich, fingers crossed.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 23, 2011, 06:16:34 PM
Okay, my Ancestry.com exact 27-marker match guy - who has the same surname as me, remember - got the last of his 67-marker results today.

We are a 63/67 match.

Here are the differences.

CDYa/b

Him = 38-39

Me = 38-38

576

Him = 18

Me = 17

557

Him = 16

Me = 17

534

Him = 13

Me = 14

So what do you think?

Not as close as I had hoped, but still a likely y-dna relative. Here's what FTDNA's Tip chart says:

Tip Report

In comparing 67 markers, the probability that . . .  and . . .  shared a common ancestor within the last...

Comparison Chart
Generations    Percentage

4    9.00%
8    45.94%
12    78.16%
16    93.14%
20    98.17%

24    99.57%
28    99.91%


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: MHammers on September 23, 2011, 08:00:21 PM
Okay, my Ancestry.com exact 27-marker match guy - who has the same surname as me, remember - got the last of his 67-marker results today.

We are a 63/67 match.

Here are the differences.

CDYa/b

Him = 38-39

Me = 38-38

576

Him = 18

Me = 17

557

Him = 16

Me = 17

534

Him = 13

Me = 14

So what do you think?

Not as close as I had hoped, but still a likely y-dna relative. Here's what FTDNA's Tip chart says:

Tip Report

In comparing 67 markers, the probability that . . .  and . . .  shared a common ancestor within the last...

Comparison Chart
Generations    Percentage

4    9.00%
8    45.94%
12    78.16%
16    93.14%
20    98.17%

24    99.57%
28    99.91%


That's great news.  None of those are slow markers either.  Maybe, 300-800 yrs. to common ancestor?


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Mark Jost on September 23, 2011, 09:00:50 PM
This is a Golden Match for you. What are the average number of years between birth events in your Stevens lines?

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if the standard quanity of probability percentage provided by TIP Generation level be at least the SD of +1 or 68.26% instead of the 50 or 95% that is being utilized normally to?



Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Jdean on September 23, 2011, 10:11:40 PM
This is a Golden Match for you.

Yep, congrats :)


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 24, 2011, 09:18:37 AM
This is a Golden Match for you. What are the average number of years between birth events in your Stevens lines?

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if the standard quanity of probability percentage provided by TIP Generation level be at least the SD of +1 or 68.26% instead of the 50 or 95% that is being utilized normally to?

Just using my own y-dna ancestors, all the way back to my most distant known y-dna ancestor, and including how old I was when my eldest boy was born, I get an average of 28 years per generation.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 24, 2011, 09:32:52 AM
That's great news.  None of those are slow markers either.  Maybe, 300-800 yrs. to common ancestor?

I'm guessing 300-350 years. Since we both had ancestors in the Pennsylvania-Ohio area at the same time, I don't think our most recent common ancestor predates the arrival of our line in North America. I'm thinking it goes back to the immigrant or perhaps to a generation or two after the arrival of the immigrant.

Unfortunately, neither of us knows who the immigrant was or where he came from.

If you recall a couple of the earlier posts in this thread, this match and I both have a 35/37 match with a man who spells his surname Stephens and who traces his ancestry to Caswell County, North Carolina, in 1789.

I don't know how that one will turn out at 67 markers, if it ever goes to 67 markers, but his only mismatch with me comes at CDYa/b where he has 37-39 and I have 38-38. That's not much of a mismatch, given that CDY is a fast mutator.

My theory is that our mutual y-dna ancestor arrived in North America from somewhere in the British Isles in the 17th or early 18th century. By the time you get to the ancestors we are able to trace, the line had already been here for several generations and had spread to different places.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: A.D. on September 24, 2011, 09:57:07 PM
I think that in the time frame for  the Ulster-Irish  emmegration to the U.S. theres a lot of Stevens/Stephens around mid-ulster might be wotht checking out.
If you need any local help just ask.
Good luck.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2011, 07:32:50 AM
I think that in the time frame for  the Ulster-Irish  emmegration to the U.S. theres a lot of Stevens/Stephens around mid-ulster might be wotht checking out.
If you need any local help just ask.
Good luck.

Thanks. I have noticed in the records available at Ancestry.com that a lot of the immigrant Stevens/Stephens came from Ireland.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 25, 2011, 07:51:24 AM
Okay, my Ancestry.com exact 27-marker match guy - who has the same surname as me, remember - got the last of his 67-marker results today.

We are a 63/67 match.

Here are the differences.

CDYa/b

Him = 38-39

Me = 38-38

576

Him = 18

Me = 17

557

Him = 16

Me = 17

534

Him = 13

Me = 14

So what do you think?

Not as close as I had hoped, but still a likely y-dna relative. Here's what FTDNA's Tip chart says:

Tip Report

In comparing 67 markers, the probability that . . .  and . . .  shared a common ancestor within the last...

Comparison Chart
Generations    Percentage

4    9.00%
8    45.94%
12    78.16%
16    93.14%
20    98.17%

24    99.57%
28    99.91%


My calculation pretends to be exact:

0,006720+
0,005490+
0,003800+
0,006510=0,022520:4=0,005630

1:0,005630=177,619
(177,619 x 4) : 134= 5,3

5,3 x 32 = 169,6 years ago the MRCA.




Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 25, 2011, 07:54:17 AM
Or, better, about 170 years before your births.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2011, 08:06:50 AM
Thanks, Gioiello.

I was born in 1955, so that would place the connection at about 1785. That is probably not too far off, since both of us hit the genealogical brick wall at about 1800 (1804 for me, with the birth of my ggg-grandfather, 1795 for him).

I should mention, in case anyone is that interested and checks Ysearch, that my match is a biological Stevens but does not currently carry that surname. He was born a Stevens. His biological father, a Stevens, was a fighter pilot in WWII who was killed over Formosa (Taiwan) near the end of the war in 1945. My match's mother later remarried. He was subsequently legally adopted by his stepfather.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2011, 08:20:52 AM
Thanks, Gioiello.

I was born in 1955, so that would place the connection at about 1785. That is probably not too far off, since both of us hit the genealogical brick wall at about 1800 (1804 for me, with the birth of my ggg-grandfather, 1795 for him).

I should mention, in case anyone is that interested and checks Ysearch, that my match is a biological Stevens but does not currently carry that surname. He was born a Stevens. His biological father, a Stevens, was a fighter pilot in WWII who was killed over Formosa (Taiwan) near the end of the war in 1945. My match's mother later remarried. He was subsequently legally adopted by his stepfather.

Oh, there is also that other match, the 35/37 one who spells his surname Stephens. They can get their y line to 1789 in North Carolina.

So, your figure of 170 years is probably not too far off, Gioiello.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2011, 09:30:19 AM
I have just been in email contact with my 35/37 Stephens match, the one who traces his ancestry to Caswell County, North Carolina, 1789. The lady in charge of that kit (his daughter) has just ordered an upgrade to 67 markers. (I have that confirmed by FTDNA, too.)

As I mentioned, we differ only at CDYa/b, where he has 37-39 and I have 38-38.

I hope this match holds up.

(Now if I could just get a match with someone who knows who the immigrant was!)



Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 25, 2011, 01:15:02 PM
I was going to ask you if you had ever contacted Beddoes (GY2YT) and I am seeing you put him on ySearch. He is very close to you (2 out 67 markers) and he matches VT2R6. Also Webb (T4QRS), WEKT6 and RWAMS are very close to you. WEKT6 is also tested R-L21. Then there are the Prices :YF3FG, 9KCJM (and it would be interesting to test your DYS452 and DYS463: 31 and 22 are unusual in our haplogroup).
And so on.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2011, 01:27:03 PM
I was going to ask you if you had ever contacted Beddoes (GY2YT) and I am seeing you put him on ySearch. He is very close to you (2 out 67 markers) and he matches VT2R6. Also Webb (T4QRS), WEKT6 and RWAMS are very close to you. WEKT6 is also tested R-L21. Then there are the Prices :YF3FG, 9KCJM (and it would be interesting to test your DYS452 and DYS463: 31 and 22 are unusual in our haplogroup).
And so on.


I did communicate with Mr. Beddoes for awhile, off and on. He actually created that Ysearch entry himself. He was born in Worcester, England, but now lives in Canada (if he is still alive). He told me his family has always lived in Shropshire.

He is elderly and not very communicative.

I have good reason to believe he may actually be a Stevens, but I cannot discuss the particulars in a public forum. I don't have any kind of real proof, however.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2011, 01:43:00 PM
I was going to ask you if you had ever contacted Beddoes (GY2YT) and I am seeing you put him on ySearch. He is very close to you (2 out 67 markers) and he matches VT2R6. Also Webb (T4QRS), WEKT6 and RWAMS are very close to you. WEKT6 is also tested R-L21. Then there are the Prices :YF3FG, 9KCJM (and it would be interesting to test your DYS452 and DYS463: 31 and 22 are unusual in our haplogroup).
And so on.


Who among my matches has those markers?


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 25, 2011, 02:37:48 PM
That Price (9KCJM) is linked to you is only an hypothesis: but your data are a cluster:
DYD390=23
DYS385=11,11
DYS439=11
DYS447=24
DYS464=15,16,17,17 (but Price has d=18)

Of course we should test the Prices for R-L21, but I have found on your R-L21 project a Cottrell (not classified) with DYS463=22.

This could mean that you are an ancient subclade of R-L21... the answer when you will be tested for the new SNPs.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2011, 06:43:44 PM
I was actually aware of the cluster and have been for awhile. I haven't been able to do much with it because most of its members aren't too interested, and most of them, like me, can't get their y-dna lines out of North America.

I don't know how soon I'll find an SNP downstream of L21. There are too many new SNPs for me to be able to afford to test all of them a la carte. I'll have to get lucky and just happen on the right one to test. I plan to try DF23 when it becomes available. If that one fails, then I don't know what or when is next.

It would be nice if one of my cluster mates was a big dna tester, but I am probably the most enthusiastic of the bunch. My enthusiasm has economic limits, however.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2011, 06:59:31 PM
That Price (9KCJM) is linked to you is only an hypothesis: but your data are a cluster:
DYD390=23
DYS385=11,11
DYS439=11
DYS447=24
DYS464=15,16,17,17 (but Price has d=18)

Of course we should test the Prices for R-L21, but I have found on your R-L21 project a Cottrell (not classified) with DYS463=22.

This could mean that you are an ancient subclade of R-L21... the answer when you will be tested for the new SNPs.

I wanted to add something about that cluster. Its only really solid markers are 390=23 and 447=24. The others are all fast movers. Taken all together, they're meaningful, but they are still somewhat unstable.

The problem with 390=23 and 447=24 is that they are both key markers in the U106+ (now Z8+) "Frisian Modal Haplotype", which is why I can only consider really close matches at 37 or 67 markers or guys who have actually tested L21+ as being members of my cluster. An apparent member of the cluster who has 67 markers and 492=12 is probably good, too, since few U106+ guys have 492=12.

It would be nice if the cluster started popping up frequently somewhere in the British Isles.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 26, 2011, 04:13:35 PM
Rich Stevens (HX9ZF) and Beddoes (GY2YT) have 2 mutations out of 67 markers (CDYa 38 against 37 and DYS413a 21 against 22). Their relatedness cannot be old of centuries.
By comparing many closely related haplotypes, we can affirm that CDYa=38 of Stevens and his sons is a recent mutation of his line: also other Stephens (6A342, BNB2P) and other related families maintain 37 (Price-Parris: NF2TH), Webb (RWAMS), Webb (T4QRS). Another Webb (WEKT6), who has 38, has mutated independently amongst the Webb line. In fact who has 37 at CDYa, has also 22 at DYS413a, against the value of 21 of those who have CDYa=38.
Unfortunately all these persons aren’t tested for all the same markers, but we can say that the original value of 413a was 22, and only the Rich’s line has mutated to 21.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 26, 2011, 06:52:45 PM
Thanks, Gioiello. I am afraid the Beddoes connection may remain a mystery for a long long time. Neither I nor he has any other Beddoes matches, if you take my meaning. And he never seemed too keen on trying to ferret out the answer.

My y-dna line has been in North America a long time, at least since before 1804, and Mr. Beddoes was born in England.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 26, 2011, 11:14:18 PM
If Mr Beddoes was born in England, there is an only explication: he maintains the original values of the Stevens family and these mutations have happened in your American line. But why your line has had two mutations and this Beddoes none? In a so recent time it is all probabilistic and probably your line was more prolific.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 27, 2011, 04:05:25 AM
GY2YT   Beddoes   England    
13   23   14   11   11   11   12   12   11   13   13   29   16   9   10   11   11   24   15   19   28   15   16   17   17   11   11   19   23   15   15   17   17   37   38   12   12
358E9   Stevens   Wheeling, West Virginia, USA
13   23   14   11   11   11   12   12   11   13   13   29   16   9   10   11   11   24   15   19   28   15   16   17   17   11   11   19   23   15   15   17   17   38   38   12   12                                                                                                                       
6A342   Stephens   North Carolina, USA    
13   23   14   11   11   11   12   12   11   13   13   29   16   9   10   11   11   24   15   19   28   15   16   17   17   11   11   19   23   15   15   17   17   37   39   12   12                                                                                                                       
BNB2P   Stephens   North Carolina, USA    
13   23   14   11   11   11   12   12   11   13   13   29   16   9   10   11   11   24   15   19   28   15   16   17   17   11   11   19   23   15   15   17   17   37   39   12   12                                                                                                                       
RWAMS   Webb   New Jersey, USA    
13   23   14   11   11   11   12   12   11   13   13   29   16   9   10   11   11   24   15   19   28   15   16   17   18   11   11   19   23   15   15   17   17   37   38   12   12                                                                                                                       
X45FC   Stevens   Wheeling, West Virginia, USA    
13   23   14   11   11   11   12   12   11   13   13   29   16   9   10   11   11   24   15   19   28   15   16   17   17   11   11   19   23   15   15   17   17   38   38   12   12   

These three lines (Stevens, Stephens and Webb) have only one mutation respect the ancestral Stevens.                                                                                                                    


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 27, 2011, 07:13:04 PM
Thanks, Gioiello. Those North Carolina entries must be new and from my latest 37-marker match.

358E9 is my second cousin (once removed), Mark. Our most recent
common ancestor is my gg-grandfather, James Holmes Stevens,
who was born in 1835 in Beaver County, Pennsylvania.

X45FC is my eldest son, Erik.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 28, 2011, 04:58:46 AM
There is a Stevens of your family tested by SMGF (see Ysearch 5GCT5). Unfortunately they have released so far only 21 values. Anyway I was able to ascertain that your DYS463 is 24, then the hypothesis I did about a possible DYS452=31 and DYS463=22 falls. Others close to this Stevens have DYS452=31, but a Stephens (VRYDK), who could testify the most ancient values of you line, compared with 75YXB, is really R1b1a2a1a1a4a. Then nothing about your DYS452, but probably it is the modal 30.

Comparing this Stevens with his 21 values, the closest ones are my friend Belgieri and his relatives, and also my line is at a GD of 6. Even though Belgieri is R-U152/L20+, and I am the ancestor R1b1b2a1/L150+, it seems to me that everything indicates also for you the Alpine Region.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2011, 06:39:01 PM
That is probably me. I sent in a sample to SMGF way back
in 2006. Last time I checked, they had me up to 17 markers,
but that was a long time ago. I guess they're up to 21 now.
I gave up on SMGF long ago.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2011, 06:49:45 PM
I wish I knew the answer to the Beddoes riddle.

It figures that I would get a close match like that, in
Europe, - a dream match really - and it would be with
someone with a different surname, and someone who,
while not totally uncooperative, isn't exactly
enthusiastic about it.

I guess things could be worse. I could have no matches
at all.

At least I have a pretty good inkling that my y-dna
ancestor probably came from the West Midlands of
England or maybe from nearby Wales.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 29, 2011, 11:33:28 AM
Of course I was joking: if your origins were in Italy, it should have happened thousands of years ago, and you know that my hypotheses about Argiedude and Soncina, with his DYS450=10, haven’t had so far no collaboration.

I can say to you what I have said to my friends in Italy: to reconstruct our modal step by step, because there are mutations around the modal and as time passes the mutations tends to the modal except when they mutate for the tangent and give life to the outliers.
I think having reconstructed your haplotype probably of your European ancestor: it seems that Beddoes (GY2YT) holds it intact. Closer to him are the Stevenses (you), the Stephenses and the Webbs: see above Reply#44. A little bit farther they are Price (YF3FG): DYS464d=18 from 17, CDYb=37 from 38 and DYS442=13 from 12; and Stevens (WW4G3): DYS464d=18 from 17, DYS576=16 from 17 and CDYa=35 from? This isn’t a one step mutation, and it could make us change the modal, i.e. to hypothesize that the most ancient value of this marker could be 36 and not 37. This is the way to reconstruct a modal of each line. Of course we must reconstruct all the intermediate lines.
On the line of Price (YF3FG) we have Price–Parris(NF2TH), who presupposes Price: mutations: DYS464d=18 from 17, CDYb=39 from 38, DYS442=13 from 12, DYS557=16. Is this a mutation from 17 or is it the ancient value of your line? Only other intermediate lines could make us to respond.
You know that I have always criticized the way to think to the modal like the most common values. If we don’t consider the mutations around the modal that could have happened, we really falsify their true number and the MRCA is at least 2 or 3 times younger.

The fact that you haven’t so far found a close match in Europe, in spit of the huge number of British tested, can mean only one thing: that your line was marginal, probably from the most ancient Britons arrived to the British Isles, and, like many times happens, it is present mostly amongst the descendents of migrants rather than in the fatherland. Many Italian surnames, almost rare, are disappeared in Italy but are present in South America or elsewhere. The same with DNA. Of course some Spaniards, like Yturralde (WH9TB) and Carretero (DVKVX), should be tested for more markers, because the other solution is that your ancestor was someone come from elsewhere. I don’t think to a Roman, being this haplogroup so rare in Italy, but Spain could be a possibility.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 29, 2011, 01:29:35 PM
9 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 11 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 11 15 18 16 17 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 11 15 19 15 16 24 12 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 11 15 20 15 16 23 10 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 11 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 12 14 18 16 18 22 11 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 13 15 19 15 17 25 12 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 13 15 19 15 18 24 12 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 13 11 15 19 15 17 24 11 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 15 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 of 35 Oregon, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
2 of 1301 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
2 of 1122 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 233 Antwerpen, Belgium [Belgian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 165 Albania [Gheg Albanian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 50 Nuuk, Greenland [Inuit] Eskimo Aleut Arctic
1 of 1079 Australia [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Oceania / Australia
1 of 365 Mendoza, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 61 Virginia, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 738 Cologne, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 218 Tuscany, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 130 Modena, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 245 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 48 Florida, United States [African American] African - Afro-American North America
1 of 134 Pyrenees, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 433 Freiburg, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 59 Missouri, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 250 Macedonia [Macedonian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 243 Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 1239 United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America

Amongst these haplotypes, the closest to you is this:
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11,11 12 11 15 19 15 16 24 (you 23) 12 (you 11)>>
1 of 78 Mendoza, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America

At least half of Argentineans have an Italian surname (someone says 52%), but, for what I have said before, I bet he is a Spaniard.

Your haplotype is a cul de sac. Nobody of the individuals of the YHRD database is closest than this.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 29, 2011, 06:57:11 PM
I think there could be more men in the British Isles who match me. Most of the British Isles results in the genetic genealogical databases are Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, etc.

If I could just get some more Stevens/Stephens from the British Isles to test, who knows?


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 29, 2011, 07:20:24 PM
By the way, I really appreciate your discussing this with me, Gioiello, and all the work you've done in researching it. I feel funny discussing my own personal ancestral quest here in this forum (too much "me"), but what the heck? There doesn't seem to be too much other posting going on right now anyway.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: OConnor on September 30, 2011, 05:16:41 AM
Do you think the plague may have had an impact on L21's diversity in some countries?

If it did... perhaps some people will find it hard to find matches.

I'm not saying this is your case Rich.
It has been something that I have wondered about.



Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on September 30, 2011, 07:52:48 PM
Do you think the plague may have had an impact on L21's diversity in some countries?

If it did... perhaps some people will find it hard to find matches.

I'm not saying this is your case Rich.
It has been something that I have wondered about.



I know you couldn't have meant me, because I have quite a few pretty good matches.

I suspect you may be right, though. It could also be that L21 men survived the plague in higher numbers than some others, which could account for L21's startling dominance in some places, or at least that was a contributing factor.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on October 01, 2011, 03:18:14 PM
I suspect my immigrant ancestor might have actually come from Wales or that my y-dna line came from Wales, anyway.

Beddoes is a Welsh surname, and a Beddoes is my closest non-Stevens/Stephens match, and I have some close matches with some Prices, as well, and Price - "ap Rhys" - is also a Welsh surname.

Webb is a pretty common surname in the West Midlands, near the Welsh border, but I don't know whether that one is found in Wales or not. The first man in recorded history to swim the English Channel, Matthew Webb, was from Shropshire.

Apparently Stevens/Stephens is a fairly common surname in Wales. Meic Stevens is a well-known Welsh folk singer, and Matthew Stevens, from Carmarthen, Wales, is a professional snooker player.

Maybe when whole-genome testing finally comes along, we'll be able to use it to precisely pinpoint our y-dna ancestor's place of origin, at least at some genealogical point in time.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on November 09, 2011, 08:09:58 PM
I have just been in email contact with my 35/37 Stephens match, the one who traces his ancestry to Caswell County, North Carolina, 1789. The lady in charge of that kit (his daughter) has just ordered an upgrade to 67 markers. (I have that confirmed by FTDNA, too.)

As I mentioned, we differ only at CDYa/b, where he has 37-39 and I have 38-38.

I hope this match holds up.

(Now if I could just get a match with someone who knows who the immigrant was!)


Well, his 67-marker upgrade is in, and we have a 64/67 match.

Not bad!

As I mentioned above, we differ by two at CDYa/b, a fast mutator. We know now that we also differ by one at 557, where I have 17 and he has 16. 557 is also a fast mutator, at least according to FTDNA.

So, I think this means Mr. Stephens and Mr. Stevens (the one with the "v" spelling is me) descend from the same y-dna ancestor within a genealogical time frame.

I can only get my y-dna line back to 1804. He can get his to 1789, but that's only 15 years beyond mine.

Anyway, it's still exciting news. Maybe something will come of it.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: NealtheRed on November 09, 2011, 11:06:45 PM
This is very interesting!

You have a unique DNA signature; that's for sure as well.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on November 10, 2011, 09:59:15 PM
I still can't figure out where Beddoes and the Webbs fit in, unless they are really Stevens (or we're Beddoes or Webbs).

Caswell County, North Carolina, is not all that far from me. I might be able to get down there sometime soon to do some digging.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: NealtheRed on November 10, 2011, 10:20:14 PM
I still can't figure out where Beddoes and the Webbs fit in, unless they are really Stevens (or we're Beddoes or Webbs).

Caswell County, North Carolina, is not all that far from me. I might be able to get down there sometime soon to do some digging.

That answer will come in time. You are getting some great breakthroughs with DNA; keep it up. Give us brick-walled folks some hope.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on November 10, 2011, 11:10:03 PM
I still can't figure out where Beddoes and the Webbs fit in, unless they are really Stevens (or we're Beddoes or Webbs).

Caswell County, North Carolina, is not all that far from me. I might be able to get down there sometime soon to do some digging.

That answer will come in time. You are getting some great breakthroughs with DNA; keep it up. Give us brick-walled folks some hope.

Well, I really wish my 65/67 match born and raised in the West Midlands of England had my surname, but nothing in my life has ever been that easy!


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: rms2 on November 23, 2011, 08:05:36 PM
Not that anyone but me cares much about my matches, but I got a surprise today: Mr. Beddoes now shows up on my Matches page at FTDNA. That has never been the case before.

I wonder if he changed his preferences, or if FTDNA's new personal page configuration has something to do with it.

Maybe now a match's preferences don't matter: if they signed the release they show up on your Matches page.

That's as it should be. If you sign the release, you should show up to your matches, regardless of how you have set the preferences for your own page.


Title: Re: Ancestry.com and an Exact 27-Marker Match
Post by: Jdean on November 23, 2011, 08:52:18 PM
Not that anyone but me cares much about my matches, but I got a surprise today: Mr. Beddoes now shows up on my Matches page at FTDNA. That has never been the case before.

I wonder if he changed his preferences, or if FTDNA's new personal page configuration has something to do with it.

Maybe now a match's preferences don't matter: if they signed the release they show up on your Matches page.

That's as it should be. If you sign the release, you should show up to your matches, regardless of how you have set the preferences for your own page.

My match who likes to lurk has shown up as well, I suspect that FTDNA's malarkey with there new 'all singing and dancing' personal page has accidently reset everybody’s settings to default :)

what a shame !!