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Title: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 05, 2011, 07:30:59 PM
I heard this morning that the entire genome of Ötzi the famous Italian "Iceman" has been successfully sequenced. Naturally, I want to know his y haplogroup, so I thought, what the heck, it doesn't hurt to ask someone who knows the answer. So I wrote the contact email at the Institute for Mummies and the Iceman in Bolzano, Italy.

To my surprise, I actually received an answer.

No, I don't yet know what Ötzi's y haplogroup is, but I received a very courteous answer from Dr. Albert Zink of the Institute. I don't think he would mind me quoting him, so here's part of what he wrote me:

"The Iceman genome will be published soon including his Y haplogroup. You may understand that we cannot release any information in advance.
Best,
Albert Zink"


So, that's something to look forward to.

Anyone want to start the guessing game as to what his y haplogroup will be?

I need to think about it, personally.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: MHammers on July 05, 2011, 08:22:21 PM
Hg I of some type, though just a guess.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: OConnor on July 06, 2011, 06:33:05 AM
I'll go on Faith to support my R Group.

I will guess he will be R1b1a2  M269

Do you favour one idea over the other, as to was Otzi killed in the mountains, or carried and laid to rest there?

(A different approach)
Ötzi died a violent death in the spring and was carried up to a high pass five months later for a ceremonial burial, according to a new study.
A map of the body and artifacts indicates that the Iceman was buried on a stone platform.
Over time, the body and the objects moved in semi-melted ice until they were found 19 years ago.

"Our reconstruction suggests that Ötzi died at at lower altitude in early-mid spring, and was then buried up on the mountain with his goods in late summer or early autumn," Luca Bondioli of the National Museum of Prehistory and Ethnology in Rome told Discovery News.

Pollen found in the mummy's gut indicated that Ötzi died in April, while pollen within the ice suggested the corpse was deposited there in August or September. The theory would explain this mismatch.


There is a comment ending the article

But Frank Rühli, head of the Swiss Mummy Project at the University of Zurich and one of the experts who investigated the mummy, argues it's is unlikely that Ötzi's unnatural posture, with the left arm bent across the chest, was the result of a post-mortem event.

"CT scans suggested that no major movement of the arm occurred after death," Rühli told Discovery News.

http://news.discovery.com/history/iceman-otzi-burial-ceremony.html

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I have doubts that pollen in the ice can indicate what time of year he was laid to rest. Who knows how long after his death that the ice formed, or melted and reformed?

Analysis of Ötzi's gut contents showed two meals, one of ibex meat, the second of red deer meat, both consumed with some grain. Pollen in the first meal showed that it had been consumed in a mid-altitude conifer forest.
http://www.crystalinks.com/oetzi.html




Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2011, 07:34:14 AM
Hg I of some type, though just a guess.

That's my guess, too. I'm going to go as far as to predict I2 of some kind (maybe I-M26).


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 07, 2011, 08:40:57 AM
I feel like a privileged person with inside information . . . because I now know when Ötzi's y haplogroup and the rest of his genetic information will be released:

October 20-22, 2011, at the next Bolzano Mummy Congress called "Mummies from the Ice".

The people at the Institute for Mummies and the Iceman in Bolzano, Italy, are very nice. I received a follow-up email this morning from Paola Bassetti of the Institute informing me of the release of Ötzi's information at the congress I mentioned above.

So that's it: October 20-22.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 07, 2011, 10:28:41 AM
Rich, it didn’t please to me that these studies have been done by “German” scientists:
1)   Because Oetzi, in spite of the name, was an ancient Italian; he has been found in Italy in spite of some of you writes in Austria or more in Austria than in Italy. I have written a lot about the papers of Irene Pichler and others: the inhabitants of the most ancient places of Alto Adige /South Tyrol are above all “Italians” and not Germans: the last letter I wrote was about mtDNA H* of some Hutterites that Fraülein Pichler was looking for in Central Europe, but this is the mtDNA of my father (mutations: 5460A, 10124C, 15617A), then, if she were searching in Tuscany, she would for sure have found it. I wouldn’t that Oetzi ends like Tutankhamun.
2)   If the test had been done by Italians, certainly we’d have known the result before that date, and this would be a best thing for us, but not to the detriment of German scholars.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 07, 2011, 01:03:26 PM
Which would be the best result for me? I have said many times: an haplotype of an haplogroup thought so far very recent, like it happened for the G2a found in France: following that haplotype and the current theories (of Nordtvedt, Klyosov, Vizachero: but is he still alive?) it would have been 2000 years old, and it is 5000.
Why it will unlikely be a I-M26? Because this haplogroup is more ancient and migrated to Sardinia from main Italy long before. But we know the mtDNA of Ötzi: K1ö, i.e. one of that bush from where comes my K1a… Then I think that he could probably be from that bush from where only a few lines have survived and probably its descendants are in the British Isles, then some R-P312*, probably ancestor of your R-L21.
This would be for me the maximum, perhaps more than it was R1b1b2a (S136+).



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: OConnor on July 07, 2011, 01:19:35 PM
Could the Alps in general have had a some-what common people in Otzi's time? Could this mean that the people of the Alps extended south into the heart of italy and beyond? Maybe not?

I had wondered one time or another if the Alps back then should considered a country in itself. Perhaps it could be named Alpinia. And not parts of Italy, Austria and Swiss.

I don't mean to step on any toes. I am just trying to look at a world with different  boundries than today.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 07, 2011, 01:37:49 PM
Ötzi came from the Remedello culture, his copper axe came from Tuscan ore, then if there is a people who can claim his ancestry they are the Italians. You have seen how Austrians have owned of him, but they are genetically (those of Alto Adige and Austrian Tyrol) mostly descendants of those ancient inhabitants (the Rhaetians) and have a little to do with Germans come later. The fact that we shall find the Ötzi’s descendants in the British Isles is what I have said from many years, not giving a lot of pleasure to the same British or Celts. But this is what Genetics is demonstrating: probably the closest to Ötzi, at least for his mtDNA, are in the British Isles. If someone wants to think that he was the son of an Irish monk, he is free to think that.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: OConnor on July 07, 2011, 01:54:18 PM
There have been green stone axes found in southern england which are supposedly sourced from the Italian Alps. So I am open to anything.

But they are around 6000 years old. Is this a time before R1b1 in North West Europe? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/court_and_social/article6497835.ece


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: GoldenHind on July 07, 2011, 02:06:56 PM
Is there a firm date for when Ötzi lived?


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 07, 2011, 02:24:32 PM
5300 Years Before Present.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 07, 2011, 02:36:01 PM
I would be thrilled if Ötzi were P312+, but I seriously doubt it.

I'm still going with some kind of I2. That's my guess, and I'm sticking with it.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mark Jost on July 07, 2011, 05:18:58 PM
Could he have been Haplogroup E, G or J?


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 07, 2011, 06:32:13 PM
Could he have been Haplogroup E, G or J?

Sure.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: OConnor on July 07, 2011, 09:12:25 PM
hey c'mon mjost...just one guess.  ;))


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mark Jost on July 08, 2011, 09:54:52 AM
I am thinking more towards G Hg since I read something about Eurasia in my reading of the Iceman. Wasn't there a recent discussion on how G was really a strong southwestern Euro Haplogroup before R1b arrived and replaced G as a majority.

Steve, I2 is a great suggestion though. It is strong presence in the Southeastern part of Europe.

The Romania page has some great Maps for review - Romania - Results
GENERAL OBSERVATIONS

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Romania/default.aspx?section=results


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 08, 2011, 12:48:05 PM
Like I wrote to my friend Giuseppe Belgieri a few days ago, Romania is a mix of too many peoples for meaning something: if you understand a little of surnames, there are above all Jews, Germans, Poles, probably someone will be a Gypsy, and the true Romanians will be some the descendants of the Italians and Celts-Romans of the Rhine Valley who peopled the ancient Dacia after the Trajan's conquest and others goodness knows of which other origin. There are many Hungarians too.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mark Jost on July 08, 2011, 01:23:16 PM
Romanians melded into the Hungarian culture in the last few millenniums but what happened 5500 years ago is well known?


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: NealtheRed on July 08, 2011, 05:41:16 PM
I think Ötzi will turn out to be some type of I.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 08, 2011, 09:34:09 PM
I think Ötzi will turn out to be some type of I.

Of course, I agree.

And, of course, we're all just having fun. He could turn out to belong to just about any y haplogroup.

I'm looking forward to finding out. Too bad we have to wait until the end of October!


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 09, 2011, 08:32:46 AM
He had a copper axe etc and there was certainly at one time a suggestion he may have been a metal worker.  I wonder how Otzi fits in with with Jean's idea of Stelae people as pre-beaker metalworkers passing through Italy to Iberia. 



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 10, 2011, 08:17:30 AM
He had a copper axe etc and there was certainly at one time a suggestion he may have been a metal worker.  I wonder how Otzi fits in with with Jean's idea of Stelae people as pre-beaker metalworkers passing through Italy to Iberia. 



What puzzles me is why whoever killed Ötzi did not steal his copper axe or his other things, for that matter.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: OConnor on July 11, 2011, 06:51:41 AM
A couple things came to mind.

If Otzi was murdered by someone (or people) he knew,  they may not want to return with anything that can be recognized as his.

Or perhaps he was buried further up in the mountains in a rock cist of some sort. Over thousands of years the melting sliding glacier could have dragged him and his items to where they were found.

According to Maliclavelli his copper axe came from Tuscan ore.
This does not mean he brought it from there, or that he made it himself.
I remember the Amesbury Archer's 2 copper knives were traced to Spain, and France. They could have been obtained as gifts, trade, plunder, or he may have made them himself.

 


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 11, 2011, 02:30:51 PM
The culture he may have come from is the Remedello culture.  Very interesting pre-beaker copper age culture.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedello_culture

It is one possible option that R1b1b2 must have spread in the copper age (as suggested by Jean).   Otzi comes from a copper age, immediately pre-beaker, culture which may in some way related to some of the stelae that Jean has linked with some sort of east-west movement that prefigures the beaker network.  On that basis (and admittedly I have not sufficient knowledge on these cultures to make any serious comment) I would for fun throw my hat into the ring that Otzi is some form of R1b, maybe L51.    


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 11, 2011, 07:32:33 PM
The culture he may have come from is the Remedello culture.  Very interesting pre-beaker copper age culture.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedello_culture

It is one possible option that R1b1b2 must have spread in the copper age (as suggested by Jean).   Otzi comes from a copper age, immediately pre-beaker, culture which may in some way related to some of the stelae that Jean has linked with some sort of east-west movement that prefigures the beaker network.  On that basis (and admittedly I have not sufficient knowledge on these cultures to make any serious comment) I would for fun throw my hat into the ring that Otzi is some form of R1b, maybe L51.    

I hope you're right. That would be very cool.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Arch Y. on July 14, 2011, 01:42:40 AM
I'm guessing Haplogroup G or E.

Arch


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: OConnor on July 14, 2011, 06:40:52 AM
Of course this is just for fun...only one guess please.

The estimated Date for Release of Results October 20-22/2011

M.Hammers....Hg I of some type, though just a guess.

OConnor........I will guess he will be R1b1a2  M269

rms2..............I'm going to go as far as to predict I2 of some kind,maybe I-M26.

Maliclavelli....... R-P312*

mjost.............I am thinking more towards G Hg

Nealthered....I think Ötzi will turn out to be some type of I.

alan trowel hands........some form of R1b, maybe L51.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 14, 2011, 08:46:16 AM
I thank you, but you should have said what is for me “more than it was R1b1b2a (S136+)”, mine, then of course the maximum, : “some R-P312*, probably ancestor of your R-L21”.

Because this would confirm all my theories.



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: OConnor on July 14, 2011, 01:21:28 PM
ok my friend I have changed it to  R-P312*
I can correct it again if I don't have it right.  

I'm wondering how deep Otzi has been snp tested?
Maybe they will just report his basic genetic group..like R1b?..or I ?


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 14, 2011, 01:57:53 PM
@ OConnor

“I'm wondering how deep Otzi has been snp tested?
Maybe they will just report his basic genetic group..like R1b?..or I ?”

It seems they have tested the whole genome, then we’ll get every information, a new sample of the “1000 Genome Project”. We’ll get all the Z beyond the M,L,U,V etc. If the researchers have said that Ötzi had brown eyes, you can imagine how deep has been their test. And that he had brown eyes does mean, I think, he was a Mediterranean and not one of those who came from North of the Black Sea. At least this is what I hope, I’d say with some good reason.



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: OConnor on July 14, 2011, 02:21:07 PM
I learned from my Grandfather's ww1 enlistment papers that he was dark complextion, black hair, brown eyes, and 5 foot 3 1/2 inches tall.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/553845b.gif&id_nbr=553612

(Not what I expected.)

My father's eyes were hazel. He was about 5' 7"
I am 5' 10" eyes are brown, I (had) fair brown hair, a light complection.

If my ancestors keep getting shorter then I must come from a line of Leprechauns
from S/E Ireland.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 14, 2011, 05:57:09 PM
I learned from my Grandfather's ww1 enlistment papers that he was dark complextion, black hair, brown eyes, and 5 foot 3 1/2 inches tall.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/553845b.gif&id_nbr=553612

(Not what I expected.)

My father's eyes were hazel. He was about 5' 7"
I am 5' 10" eyes are brown, I (had) fair brown hair, a light complection.

If my ancestors keep getting shorter then I must come from a line of Leprechauns
from S/E Ireland.


 D*i*e*t affects height and weight. People who eat more animal protein tend to be bigger.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 14, 2011, 07:21:02 PM
It is interesting that the Remedillo burials that gave its name to the culture that the ice man was maybe linked to are described as follows

The Copper Age graves contained a single body in a crouching or supine position with the head facing north-west.[3]

The male set was represented by arrows, stone daggers and polished stone axes, among the tombs few are those with axes and daggers or ornaments made of copper.[3]

The female burials are accompanied by ceramic vessels or (in rare occasions) ornaments. The graves of children or youngs contained simple kits of flint stone.[3]

Among the found items noteworthy is the presence of extremely accurate works in flint stone as axes and other weapons, objects in copper and arsenical silver (arms, pins, pectorals, bracelets), all of them characterized by decorative elements of eastern origin.[1]


There is certainly some similarity in description to beaker culture but on the other hand the 2nd half of the culture did overlap with beakers in Iberia so there could be some sort of beaker influence.  I also read somewhere that the culture included barbed and tanged arrowheads.  Again, I am not sure if this is pre-beaker or from the later part of Remedello culture which overlapped with beakers or not.  

I see looking back that the Remedello is part of the Harrison and Heyd take on beakers that Jean's model relates to and has been discussed in the past by Jean and others.  So, it really will be very interesting if the ice man is a Remedello chap.  

I still am not a huge fan of the southern route given variance calculations and the lack of L11* but I suppose L11 could partly have moved along the Alps (I think Myres shows there is hotspot of L11* in the Alps) and S116 could have occurred somewhere like the French/Swiss border (where it had high variance).  The Rhone could have been important as it links both to the Med. and the Rhine and other areas and from there split partly heading north and partly west.  I understand there is a huge amounts of pretty early beaker in the Rhone area.  I recall in the various dating estimates that southern France (and Italy) was in the very early beaker zone along with Iberia.  A lot would fall into place if beaker cultures origins started across a zone that included both Alpine Italy and south-east France as well as Iberia.  

I dont know whether that would mean the ice man would most likely be L51, L11* or S116*.  My problem with the latter is that S116 is not given a high variance in Italy and yet gets its peak variance in the SE France area.  Problem with L11* is it is more on the north side of the Alps it seems to have been found by Myres etc.  That kind of pushes the origin of both L11 and S116 to the north side of the Alps. Maybe not far north though?  Could L11 have happened as some L51 headed up the Rhone coming from Italy?  I believe the Rhone leads to the Rhine and I suppose its not impossible that S116 and U106 both could have descended from L11* people in the SE French/Alps area.  Then why would there be such as explosion of clades from L51-L11-S116/U106 in the north Alpine area?  There is definately a lot to be chewed over but it is not easy to fit it all together in a way that links the DNA and archaeology.  So, I am still guessing but if I had to go for a single clade I would go for L51.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: GoldenHind on July 14, 2011, 08:17:16 PM
I'm wondering how deep Otzi has been snp tested?
Maybe they will just report his basic genetic group..like R1b?..or I ?

I hope Malicavelli is correct, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the announcement is merely HG I or R1b or whatever he turns out to be. 


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 15, 2011, 07:09:23 AM
I'm wondering how deep Otzi has been snp tested?
Maybe they will just report his basic genetic group..like R1b?..or I ?

I hope Malicavelli is correct, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the announcement is merely HG I or R1b or whatever he turns out to be. 

Especially since the information will probably be filtered through various news media, the Institute will keep it as simple as possible.

But we can hope for better.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 15, 2011, 09:50:28 AM
@ Rich
“Especially since the information will probably be filtered through various news media, the Institute will keep it as simple as possible”.

But are you joking? After having deciphered the whole genome, not only they’ll publish a detailed paper, but I think they’ll put on internet all the data. They are already working on the data, to do the maximum of discoveries.
But I am asking where is the Italian Government. Of course the Alto Adige/South Tyrol is a “Regione a Statuto Speciale” and has an autonomy, but we are speaking just of the genetic origin  not only of those people, but also of the whole Italians and I think of the Europeans, at least the Western ones, and my Government should can say something.
I have written many times in the past where Fräulein Pichler should have looked for the ancestors of her Hutterites (at least those coming from Tyrol).


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on July 15, 2011, 01:42:00 PM
@ Rich
“Especially since the information will probably be filtered through various news media, the Institute will keep it as simple as possible”.

But are you joking? After having deciphered the whole genome, not only they’ll publish a detailed paper, but I think they’ll put on internet all the data. They are already working on the data, to do the maximum of discoveries.
But I am asking where is the Italian Government. Of course the Alto Adige/South Tyrol is a “Regione a Statuto Speciale” and has an autonomy, but we are speaking just of the genetic origin  not only of those people, but also of the whole Italians and I think of the Europeans, at least the Western ones, and my Government should can say something.
I have written many times in the past where Fräulein Pichler should have looked for the ancestors of her Hutterites (at least those coming from Tyrol).


They may publish a paper, but will it also be ready October 20-22?

I hope they make everything public.

I'm not big on government involvement.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 15, 2011, 03:53:43 PM
They have all the data at their disposal. It depends on what they want to privilege. We’ll see by what they’ll publish.
The Government. Mine doesn’t exist, less about this stuff.
Read on 23andme what I have written recently to Maragoudakis: a Cretan K1a1b1 (like me) but who matches an Hutterite of Fräulein Pichler: he is probably of Venetian descent and all carries us to North Italy.
In my region I have tested (at my expense) a few persons beyond my familiars by chance:
Me: R1b1b2a (S136+). K1a1b1 (9932A)
My Wife: K1c1* (16180T)
My cousin (then my father): H* (5460A, 10124C, 15617A): that of 3 Hutterites
Tognarelli (husband of my cousin): another R1b1b2a (probably not 136+: C in rs13303711), H6a1
Federighi (husband of a second cousin of mine): R1b1b2 (DYS462=12), R0a (16230G, 16497G)
Malvolti: R-U152, H (no coding region).
Which genetic mine is my zone? Don’t you think that a Government or a people who loves himself
should care for this, and, above all, for his past? And Ötzi is our past.




Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 22, 2011, 12:01:57 AM
The last update of Phylotree has accepted the work of Endicott 2009 and has relabelled K1ö in K1f.
The mutation in 16362 is common to K1d and K1f.
K1d is an Australian, then I suppose of British Isles descent, then what I have said , that the closest to Ötzi are there, I think is demonstrated. This makes me hope about my hypothesis re: Ötzi’s Y, i.e. the ancestor of the most diffused haplogroup of the British Isles, above all the extreme parts (Ireland and Scotland): a bush of R-P312*.



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2011, 07:58:50 AM
I learned from my Grandfather's ww1 enlistment papers that he was dark complextion, black hair, brown eyes, and 5 foot 3 1/2 inches tall.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/553845b.gif&id_nbr=553612

(Not what I expected.)

My father's eyes were hazel. He was about 5' 7"
I am 5' 10" eyes are brown, I (had) fair brown hair, a light complection.

If my ancestors keep getting shorter then I must come from a line of Leprechauns
from S/E Ireland.


Just the other day I was following a related line for some relatives with the surname Kirst (a Kirst married my paternal grandfather's sister, Ruth). I hit a goldmine of documentary info and found their immigrant Kirst ancestor, a man from Saxony in Germany who came to America and joined the U.S. Army. He was at a fort in Texas in the 1870s and up at Ft. Shaw in Montana in the 1880s.

Anyway, I saw a re-enlistment roster with his name on it that listed all the recruits and gave their height, as well as hair and eye color. Sergeant Kirst was 5-3 1/2, but he wasn't unusual. All of the entries I saw were for short guys, by modern standards, anyway. I didn't go over the entire list, but what I saw was striking.



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2011, 08:18:21 AM
I learned from my Grandfather's ww1 enlistment papers that he was dark complextion, black hair, brown eyes, and 5 foot 3 1/2 inches tall.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/553845b.gif&id_nbr=553612

(Not what I expected.)

My father's eyes were hazel. He was about 5' 7"
I am 5' 10" eyes are brown, I (had) fair brown hair, a light complection.

If my ancestors keep getting shorter then I must come from a line of Leprechauns
from S/E Ireland.


Just the other day I was following a related line for some relatives with the surname Kirst (a Kirst married my paternal grandfather's sister, Ruth). I hit a goldmine of documentary info and found their immigrant Kirst ancestor, a man from Saxony in Germany who came to America and joined the U.S. Army. He was at a fort in Texas in the 1870s and up at Ft. Shaw in Montana in the 1880s.

Anyway, I saw a re-enlistment roster with his name on it that listed all the recruits and gave their height, as well as hair and eye color. Sergeant Kirst was 5-3 1/2, but he wasn't unusual. All of the entries I saw were for short guys, by modern standards, anyway. I didn't go over the entire list, but what I saw was striking.




I just went back and looked at two such enlistment rosters. The tallest man I could find was 5-10 1/2, and he must have seemed like a real giant compared with the rest. He was an American from Pennsylvania with the surname Kyle. There were no six-foot or six-foot-plus individuals, not a one.

There were a lot of German and Irish immigrants in the U.S. Army at that time, judging by those rosters. There was one Norwegian, too, I noticed. He was 5-7 1/2.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: IALEM on August 12, 2011, 04:52:34 AM
Height is directly related to nourishment, and in the XIX century most people living in Western Europe got a very poor . I remember reading that the average height of Danish recruits in 1860 was 163 cms.
Dutch are presently tallest Europeans, however in the XVI century Spanish soldiers laughed at their diminutive Dutch opponents, Dutch society was at the time the most urbannized, and people coming from rural areas were regularly taller and healthier.
Here is an interesting article on historical height
http://www.macleans.ca/science/technology/article.jsp?content=20050404_103140_103140


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on August 12, 2011, 07:50:40 AM
Height is directly related to nourishment, and in the XIX century most people living in Western Europe got a very poor . I remember reading that the average height of Danish recruits in 1860 was 163 cms.
Dutch are presently tallest Europeans, however in the XVI century Spanish soldiers laughed at their diminutive Dutch opponents, Dutch society was at the time the most urbannized, and people coming from rural areas were regularly taller and healthier.
Here is an interesting article on historical height
http://www.macleans.ca/science/technology/article.jsp?content=20050404_103140_103140

Notice the political conclusions reached by that article? The warning lights go off when I read stuff like that.

What hooey.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: IALEM on August 12, 2011, 11:55:14 AM



Notice the political conclusions reached by that article? The warning lights go off when I read stuff like that.

What hooey.
Hmm no, what are they?


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on August 12, 2011, 12:30:24 PM



Notice the political conclusions reached by that article? The warning lights go off when I read stuff like that.

What hooey.
Hmm no, what are they?

I don't really want to get into a political discussion, but just read the article's conclusions.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: IALEM on August 12, 2011, 01:10:08 PM
Maybe we are reading different parts, because the only political conclusion I can read is that Rich people are taller and live longer lives.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Heber on August 13, 2011, 06:13:58 AM
http://news.discovery.com/history/oetzi-girlfriend-skeleton-110720.html


"Italian workers building an addition to a kindergarten have unearthed a well preserved female skeleton who might be relatively contemporaneous with Ötzi, the Iceman mummy discovered 20 years ago in a melting glacier in South Tyrol.

The "Lady of Introd" or "Ötzi’s girlfriend," as the skeleton was nicknamed in Italy, was found in the tiny Alpine village of Introd, in the Val d'Aosta, famous to be the preferred vacationing spot for both Pope John II and his successor Benedict XVI.

According to archaeologists and anthropologists, the woman has been lying on her right side, with her head facing west, for about 5,000 years."

I hope she is next for the full genome treatment. They could determine her degree of cousinship with Otzi.




Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on August 13, 2011, 06:49:40 AM
http://news.discovery.com/history/oetzi-girlfriend-skeleton-110720.html


"Italian workers building an addition to a kindergarten have unearthed a well preserved female skeleton who might be relatively contemporaneous with Ötzi, the Iceman mummy discovered 20 years ago in a melting glacier in South Tyrol.

The "Lady of Introd" or "Ötzi’s girlfriend," as the skeleton was nicknamed in Italy, was found in the tiny Alpine village of Introd, in the Val d'Aosta, famous to be the preferred vacationing spot for both Pope John II and his successor Benedict XVI.

According to archaeologists and anthropologists, the woman has been lying on her right side, with her head facing west, for about 5,000 years."

I hope she is next for the full genome treatment. They could determine her degree of cousinship with Otzi.


They should at least be able to get her mtDNA, which would be something, anyway.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: 1790Noll on September 12, 2011, 05:12:11 AM
G2a4!?!?
From Dienekes blog... comment.. of Marcantonio...
According to an interview with an austrian scientist Ötzi is G2a4!

Link?

The source of this information is an interview with Dr. Eduard Egarter-Vigl, Head of Conservation and Assistant to research projects of the Archaeological Museum in Bozen, given in a documentary on Ötzi broadcast by 3sat on 10th august 2011. See also the following link for more info on this documentary:
http://www.3sat.de/page/?source=/dokumentationen/155967/index.html
But unless you speak German this link will be of no interest!

I wonder if it is true (G2a)  or just speculation?!
Giuseppe.



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: A.D. on September 12, 2011, 07:41:52 AM
would G2a make him of 'Mesolithic' stock ? I noticed in the article it said he had brown eyes I read somewhere else they were blue or grey. couldn't find any mention of HG. I used google translate so maybe I didn't get everything.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 12, 2011, 07:58:04 AM
Giuseppe, imagine if a similar news had been given on 10 August? Had anybody spoken about it? I didn’t find anything on that program. Only this, with a little mistake: Wikipaedia says he was 1,65 high.

Der Mann aus dem Eis war 1,59 groß und zu Lebzeiten etwa 50 kg schwer. Er war zwischen 46 und 47 Jahre alt, feingliedrig gebaut, hatte Schuhgröße 38,und braune Augen. Er hatte ältere Verletzungen und Krankheitsbilder und starb an einer Verletzung durch eine Pfeilspitze. Soweit die Fakten.

But hg. G would be one of the candidate. These two Italian haplotypes are on the FTDNA hg. G project:

E11979 Savioli UMBERTO SAVIOLI 1907-1976 Italy G2a4 13 22 15 10 14-14 11 12 11 14 11 30 18 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 30 12-13-15-16 11 12 20-20 15 14 18 18 33-38 11 11 12 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 13 12 12 21-22 18 10 12 12 17 8 13 25 21 15 12 11 14 10 11 11 11  
33943 Ricchiazzi Ricchiazzi Italy G2a4 14 22 15-17 10 13-14 11 12 13 13 11 29 18 9-10 11 11 22 16 21 30 14-14-14-16 11 11 20-20 15 14 18 18 33-39 11 10 11 8 16-16 8 13 10 8 12 11 12 19-19 15 10 12 12 16 8 11 22 21 13 14 11 14 10 11 11 11
Using the usual method, not mine, we can count 38 mutations, not considering the double value on DYS19:
(454x38):134=128
128x32=4096YBP
I’d say that considering my “mutations around the modal” (it is a little bit believable that the fast mutating markers from DYS607 to CDYb have had only 1 mutation whilst others very slow mutating have mutated many times), these two Italian haplotypes have a Common Ancestor much before the life of Ötzi.





Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: 1790Noll on September 12, 2011, 12:30:32 PM
I wondered why that was not officiallly released Oetzi..  haplogroup ..
Although definitely in August, scientists already knew, the Iceman's haplogroup..
The professor of Bolzano mummy institute said that there are descendants of Oetzi's right in the mountains of Tyrol.
So they have already found and maybe it is not impossible that they are the group G?!
The thing that amazes me is that a persistent lack of R1b in Europe in the ancient european DNA ..
and this seems to confirm arrive... recently (4000 years ago) of R1b in Europe ...
However, anything is possible.
I wondered if the news was true or not?
The news is still plausible .... for me.
From wikipedia.. about hapl. G2a... in Sardinia, Tyrol, Georgia and Ossetia..
In western Austria, in the Tirol (Tyrol) the G percentage can reach 8% or more. In the northern and highland areas of the island of Sardinia off western Italy, G percentages reach 11% of the population in one study[17] and reached 21% in the town of Tempio in another study


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 12, 2011, 01:28:07 PM
Of course if we didn't find any R1b in ancient Europe the hypothesis of a recent arrival of its from East would be strengthened, but I continue to hope that we'll find it, perhaps in Central-Western Italy or more Westward. Also by my calculations, this G2a4 probably is at least Mesolithic in Italy, and add the G2a3b1a2 (L497+), probably born in the Rhaetian-Etruscan territory. Also this haplogroup could be in the Younger Dryas Refugium, and I continue to think that also R1b was there.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: 1790Noll on September 12, 2011, 02:03:36 PM
Gioiello, About your idea of ​​an Italian origin of R1b M269 I do not know ... ..
I was always amazed that there were U152 +, among the Bashkir  and the Turks Kipchak and Hungarians  ..
Since all populations are ancient Finno Ugric language .. this exclude a Turkish origin of R1b ..
but, however, the results indicate an recent U152+ origin from Central Asia, which is a group of R1b ..
But all hypotheses are possible.....


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 12, 2011, 03:09:00 PM
Well, that is interesting. I voted y hap I in Dienekes' poll, but that was before this news.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 12, 2011, 03:15:38 PM
It would be nice to have this news confirmed.

Funny that in July Dr. Zink told me they couldn't release the info and then another scientist goes ahead and spills the beans in August.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 12, 2011, 03:17:33 PM
You know that at the origin of my theory (an Italian refugium against an Eastern origin, at least from R1b1*) there was the fact that Italy (and Europe) has all the lines of this haplogroup: R1b1/V88-, R1b1/M18 (Sardinia), R1b1a2/YCAII=17-23, R1b1a2a/L150- (your friend Romitti), R1b1a2a/L150+(me too), R-L51+ (it seemed that Italy had the high percentage) and so on. The 3 most important subclades are European in their origin: R-U152: Central-North Italy, R-U106: Central-North Europe, R-L21: Celtic world, above all the British one. What more?

I think having demonstrated also that R-M73, R-M335, and also R1a-M420, may be born in Italy or in Western (for R1a also Central and Eastern) Europe.

To think that for some R-U152 (which is your haplogroup too) found sparsely in Eastern Europe there is its origin, I consider it an act of masochism.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: 1790Noll on September 12, 2011, 03:34:20 PM
Me also suggested haplogroup I for Oetzi...
Because i  did not think that the Sardinians are also G  or both I and G.
For the rest all are hypotheses for now ..
Wait for the confirmation ..


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: 1790Noll on September 12, 2011, 03:37:00 PM
It would be nice to have this news confirmed.

Funny that in July Dr. Zink told me they couldn't release the info and then another scientist goes ahead and spills the beans in August.

May be the scientist Dr. Zink spoke about  Dna hapl. Oetzi in August??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CGG7Ax9btY&feature=related
Surely  months they know the Iceman's DNA.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: 1790Noll on September 12, 2011, 03:45:22 PM
You know that at the origin of my theory (an Italian refugium against an Eastern origin, at least from R1b1*) there was the fact that Italy (and Europe) has all the lines of this haplogroup: R1b1/V88-, R1b1/M18 (Sardinia), R1b1a2/YCAII=17-23, R1b1a2a/L150- (your friend Romitti), R1b1a2a/L150+(me too), R-L51+ (it seemed that Italy had the high percentage) and so on. The 3 most important subclades are European in their origin: R-U152: Central-North Italy, R-U106: Central-North Europe, R-L21: Celtic world, above all the British one. What more?

I think having demonstrated also that R-M73, R-M335, and also R1a-M420, may be born in Italy or in Western (for R1a also Central and Eastern) Europe.

To think that for some R-U152 (which is your haplogroup too) found sparsely in Eastern Europe there is its origin, I consider it an act of masochism.



You are always nice.
I'm no masochist, I thought the only very ancient DNA found .."R " is not. in Europe ..
yes .. but in Asia.
 
I think that the hypothesis of a possible "R" origin should be  from the steppes of Central Asia ..
When?!? I do not know for sure.

Italy was the center of the Roman Empire .. and certainly people came in Italy  from all over the Mediterranean and Europe..
This would explain the variety of Italian hapl. R. Hyp. sure...


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 12, 2011, 04:24:16 PM

It is masochistic to think they came, sadistic to think we went.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: 1790Noll on September 12, 2011, 04:39:30 PM
Very nice ..
but you know I do not think either sadistic or masochistic or not a source of my group L20 + from a cisalpine Gaul  or from a Lombard (Longobardo)..
For the rest you can not deny that throughout the Roman Empire  a lot of slaves arrived in Italy ..
And also perhaps only in Sardinia, in the mountains of Barbagia, may be have preserved the ancient European Mesolithic in the majority haplogroup I and G...


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 12, 2011, 05:12:25 PM
Sardinia gets also a high percentage of R-U152 amongst the R haplogroup and also R-M18, one of the most ancient subclade of R1b1/V88-. Don’t you remember when a phantom (who is now again furtive amongst the forums, after having left his paradise under his plants, and he isn’t the Communism) wanted to convince everyone that it was Lebanese? Perhaps he spread the news, because I looked at all the interviews from South Tyrol and nobody spoke of haplogroup G, they said “genes” not “G”.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: 1790Noll on September 12, 2011, 05:27:49 PM
Yes a lot of sardinian coast are U152+ as are the Corsican..
but i think a lot are Ligurians..

The central mountain of Sardinia are I or G. ..

about phoenician phantom.. i don't know..
I remember some talk about R1b+ in Lebanon as crusaders.. mah!?

The V88 are ancients  egyptians as ...their chadics languages...?!.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 12, 2011, 05:43:20 PM
They are V88+, but Sardinian R-M18 presupposes V88-, not found in North Africa. My theory is that it came from Italy via sea and I am always waiting the paper Fulvio Cruciani "promised" me.

The phantom who spoke of Phoenicians wasn't a Phoenician. On "Dienekes' blog" I added this:

And who spoke of this news? Marcantonio, written in Italian: the monkey clomb down a tree.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: 1790Noll on September 12, 2011, 06:01:08 PM
Ah,..
i don't knew tha the phantom was Marcantonio ..
the same that writed about Oetzi G2a etc..............
We have always to await that scientist release the Oetzi Y Dna. ok..


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 12, 2011, 07:04:31 PM
So, I gather this news that Ötzi is G2a4 is unreliable.

Okay. We wait for October and the big announcement.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: NealtheRed on September 12, 2011, 11:36:53 PM
So, I gather this news that Ötzi is G2a4 is unreliable.

Okay. We wait for October and the big announcement.

How was Oetzi determined to be G2a4? I guess I missed this news flash!


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 13, 2011, 08:22:35 AM
So, I gather this news that Ötzi is G2a4 is unreliable.

Okay. We wait for October and the big announcement.

How was Oetzi determined to be G2a4? I guess I missed this news flash!

Apparently someone posted a comment on Dienekes' blog saying he (the poster of the comment) had seen a documentary in which an Austrian scientist had announced that Ötzi's y haplogroup is G2a4.

No one seems able to confirm the truth of that claim, so we're still waiting for the big official announcement in October.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: NealtheRed on September 13, 2011, 09:11:59 AM
So, I gather this news that Ötzi is G2a4 is unreliable.

Okay. We wait for October and the big announcement.

How was Oetzi determined to be G2a4? I guess I missed this news flash!

Apparently someone posted a comment on Dienekes' blog saying he (the poster of the comment) had seen a documentary in which an Austrian scientist had announced that Ötzi's y haplogroup is G2a4.

No one seems able to confirm the truth of that claim, so we're still waiting for the big official announcement in October.

Ah, I see. It is back to the waiting game then.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: NealtheRed on September 13, 2011, 08:09:32 PM
I looked at Dienekes's blog regarding Oetzi, and I found another post related to his Y-DNA:

"The Y DNA results are allegedly back. Seen on Austrian TV. Not by me. G2a4".

I am not commenting on validity, just relaying information.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 13, 2011, 09:24:48 PM
I looked at Dienekes's blog regarding Oetzi, and I found another post related to his Y-DNA:

"The Y DNA results are allegedly back. Seen on Austrian TV. Not by me. G2a4".

I am not commenting on validity, just relaying information.
MHammers, does this match up with your aging for G?  I remember you looked at one of the G subclades and felt like its TMRCAs were a little older than the R-L23 in the Caucusus.  Is that right?


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: MHammers on September 13, 2011, 10:50:48 PM
I looked at Dienekes's blog regarding Oetzi, and I found another post related to his Y-DNA:

"The Y DNA results are allegedly back. Seen on Austrian TV. Not by me. G2a4".

I am not commenting on validity, just relaying information.
MHammers, does this match up with your aging for G?  I remember you looked at one of the G subclades and felt like its TMRCAs were a little older than the R-L23 in the Caucusus.  Is that right?

I'll have to find that post, but the G subclades I put together were rather mixed as some were untested for downstream snp's.  However, I did get estimates much older than what we see for R1b.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: MHammers on September 13, 2011, 10:56:35 PM
Here it is.. I'll see if there is enough G2A4 out there to run through Ken's spreadsheet.

Since we now know G2a3 was present in the LBK of Germany during the neolithic, I decided to run some calculations on G2a3 types using Ken's Generations5 calculator.
The data comes from the FTDna Haplogroup G project.

The following are intraclade ages using mostly G2a3a, G2a3a1, G2a3b, and G2a3b1 as a proxy for a neolithic pattern.  Some of the haplotypes were not as fully tested as I would have liked, so that should be taken into account when considering the ages.

G2a3b and G2a3b1(nothing further downstream) - all locations - G=324/17 or 9720+/-510 ybp - n=154

G2a3b and G2a3b1(nothing further downstream) - Europe only - G=313/16 or 9390+/-480 ybp - n=145

G2a3b1+(all downstream) -all locations - G=366/22 or 10980+/-660 ybp - n=220

G2a3b1+(all downstream) -Europe only - G=356/21 or 10680+/-630 ybp - n=207

G2a3a+ - all locations - G=372/20 or 11160+/-600 ybp - n=36

G2a3a+ - Europe only - G=260/18 or 7800+/-540 ybp - n=24

G2a3b1a1a (for comparison) - G=109/12 or 3270+/-360 ybp - n=34

Here's an interclade for G2a3 using G2a3a, G2a3a1, G2a3b and G2a3b1 (nothing further downtstream) - G=529/135 or 15870+/-4050 ybp

As you can see these ages are much older than what we're getting for R1b.  G2a3 seems to originate in SW Asia sometime during the upper paleolithic and was probably important to the transition to agriculture there.   The Europe only sample for G2a3b and G2a3b1 are in line with a neolithic entry for SE Europe around 7000 BC and the Europe only for G2a3a is very close to LBK in Central Europe.  The LBK aDNA was at least G2a3, but I'm not sure exactly what, if any, downstream snp's were tested.



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: MHammers on September 13, 2011, 11:48:11 PM
I found 15 usable G2a4's with 67 markers on the Haplogroup G project.  All are at least G2a4 or L91, 5 are L166-, 9 are L166 unknown, and  1 is L166+ or G2a4a.  There are 1 Dutch, 2 German, 2 Italian, and1 Moroccan.  The rest are British Isles, USA, and unknown origin.  With a rather limited sample I thought an intraclade may be a better estimate in this case, instead of splitting the sample for an even more rough interclade attempt.

Result..
G=273+/-25 or 6190 BC +/- 750 yrs. @30 yrs/G.  The coalescence time in G was 201 or 4030 BC.  Ken or someone else knowledgeable should be able to explain the meaning of coalescence vs. intraclade.  The intraclade estimate is right around the time of LBK in central Europe and would make sense if Otzi is indeed G2a4 and a neolithic descendant.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2011, 08:20:28 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: MHammers on September 14, 2011, 11:11:14 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).

Correct.  It is interesting that the finds for Hg G are starting to cluster around the Neolithic to Copper age (LBK, Treilles, and maybe Otzi/Remedello).  Although one of the Ergolding Merovingians was G which is an outlier to this emerging pattern or even a migration period descendant.  R1b is showing up Bronze age and later, which is also in line with the STR variance based calculations. 


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2011, 12:55:03 PM
I don't know what significance this has, but, as I recall, the only remains in the Ergolding cave with weapons, spurs, and chain mail were three of the four R1b found there. The rest were not so equipped.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: A.D. on September 14, 2011, 04:23:31 PM
There was something new up on I think Dienekes about  J and G having a common ancestor. Just saw it in passing  thought it might be of intrest.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: NealtheRed on September 14, 2011, 08:26:42 PM
I don't know what significance this has, but, as I recall, the only remains in the Ergolding cave with weapons, spurs, and chain mail were three of the four R1b found there. The rest were not so equipped.

Aren't the Celts credited with developing mail?


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: NealtheRed on September 14, 2011, 09:12:11 PM
It looks like Otzi is indeed G2a4. Here is the Youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRXiwWpmSbs


I hope you all can speak German!


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 14, 2011, 11:42:11 PM
Yes, Dr Vigl confirms that the haplogroup is G2a4 (ge zwei a vier).


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2011, 07:27:55 AM
Well, that is something.

I remember a few years ago the claim was that G2 in Europe got there with the Sarmatians. That argument was advanced based on the presence of a lot of G2 among the modern Ossetians. I argued back then that I didn't think the Sarmatians were G2 but that the Ossetians had gotten to have so much G2 by living among so many G2 neighbors in the Caucasus. I think the Sarmatians were probably mostly R1a, but that's just my opinion.



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2011, 07:31:43 AM
I don't know what significance this has, but, as I recall, the only remains in the Ergolding cave with weapons, spurs, and chain mail were three of the four R1b found there. The rest were not so equipped.

Aren't the Celts credited with developing mail?

I've read that they invented it, but I'm not sure, honestly.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2011, 07:48:34 AM
My German is pretty rusty (I can read it fairly well, though), and, honestly, this computer at work has pretty low volume, so hearing what Dr. Vigl said is difficult. But didn't I hear him say something about G2a4 being found on Sardinia?

What puzzles me is why Ötzi was killed.

I hope some more testable male remains are recovered in Northern Italy. It would be nice to know if U152 was already there at that time, about 3,000 years ago, or not.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 15, 2011, 08:41:30 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).

Correct.  It is interesting that the finds for Hg G are starting to cluster around the Neolithic to Copper age (LBK, Treilles, and maybe Otzi/Remedello).  Although one of the Ergolding Merovingians was G which is an outlier to this emerging pattern or even a migration period descendant.  R1b is showing up Bronze age and later, which is also in line with the STR variance based calculations.  
Maybe there is value in the molecular clock concept and STR variance after all.

Although we have no scientific sampling of ancient Y DNA, at least for Hg G we have a bit of pattern developing.
Quote from: Dienekes
Ötzi, the Tyrolean Iceman belonged to Y-haplogroup G2a4.
We now have G2a3 from Neolithic Linearbandkeramik in Derenburg and G2a in Treilles in addition to Ötzi from the Alps. G2a folk got around.

For R1b this may be not be satisfying for a while. The answer to RMS's question "Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe?" is NO but lack of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think the key when we find ancient R1b is not that it is R1b but what subclade.  There is a big difference between finding R-L23* and R-P312 or R-M222.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: A.D. on September 15, 2011, 03:20:48 PM
I was watching a program on genetic 'The Differance@ channel 4 uk. there was a section on red hair as you know you have to have the gene on both sides of the family to have red hair .then it got intresting this gene is said to heve a link to skin cancer even if you only have it on one side of the family (hence not have red hair) the risk is increased (apperantly you have a differant kind of melolin). Heres the bit that got my attention. In hot climates there is also a decrease in reproduction. I guess that meant people dying younger and having less children.
What I was wondering is if R1b has it's origins amongst the people carrying that gene in ancient times in S.W asia would it not have been a a lower than expected level butb when it reached colder climate increased expotetially?


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2011, 03:26:23 PM
Of course, I just used "R1b" as a kind of shorthand to avoid having to write long, torturous sentences involving all the different possible clades. I meant something further up the tree from the root than actual M343.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 15, 2011, 05:18:58 PM
I was watching a program on genetic 'The Differance@ channel 4 uk. there was a section on red hair as you know you have to have the gene on both sides of the family to have red hair .then it got intresting this gene is said to heve a link to skin cancer even if you only have it on one side of the family (hence not have red hair) the risk is increased (apperantly you have a differant kind of melolin). Heres the bit that got my attention. In hot climates there is also a decrease in reproduction. I guess that meant people dying younger and having less children.
What I was wondering is if R1b has it's origins amongst the people carrying that gene in ancient times in S.W asia would it not have been a a lower than expected level butb when it reached colder climate increased expotetially?

I find it funny the way people try to attribute red heads to a particular historical group.  The reality is you have entire populations carrying the marker at a certain percentage and a red head is when two people with the marker breed.  It seems that a much higher percentage (have heard 30-40% in Scotland, Ireland etc) have the marker than the red hair (more like 10%).  I suppose if one in three men and one in three women have the marker then it would come out like that.  Anyway, having one copy seems to be very common in some areas.  

I suspect that the common Irish look of very fair redhead-like pale or  freckled skin  but with brown hair may be a common outcome of carrying just one marker.  

The Irish and British are well known on continental holidays for being burned to a crisp by the sun and incapable of tanning while the Germans, Scandinavians etc seem to be able to tan well  


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2011, 07:11:34 PM
I must carry the gene for red hair, even though my own hair is not red, because my youngest daughter has red hair. Also two of my grandsons, sons of my youngest son, have red hair. One of my dad's older sisters had red hair.

I sunburn easily and have had my share of really bad burns throughout the years.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2011, 07:26:37 PM
Larry Mayka raised a good question on Rootsweb. Whose definition of G2a4 are they using for Ötzi?

ISOGG has L91 as G2a4, but 23andMe has it as L32.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2011, 07:34:11 PM
Larry Mayka raised a good question on Rootsweb. Whose definition of G2a4 are they using for Ötzi?

ISOGG has L91 as G2a4, but 23andMe has it as L32.


Since FTDNA also has G2a4 as L91, I figure L91 is on the YCC Tree at G2a4, so probably L91 is meant in the case of Ötzi.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2011, 08:11:21 PM
I am thinking more towards G Hg . . .

I just noticed that back on 08 July Mark correctly predicted that Ötzi would be some kind of G, so he gets the grand prize: the internet warmth of all our smiles. ;-)

Nice work, Mark.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mark Jost on September 16, 2011, 09:57:03 PM
ahhh shucks.... lol  Thanks. It was just an slightly educated guess anyway. I hope the Video statement really is true.  Near-Eastern haplogroups  Haplogroup G was well described in:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2011, 07:50:03 AM
Well, that was a good guess. I guessed I2 just because I know it's currently found in Italy and I didn't think Ötzi would be R1b.

When I first got into dna testing, it looked like ancient y-dna was beyond our reach. We thought it lucky when researchers could recover some mtDNA now and then. Now it looks like we might actually start to get some answers.

Of course, the big drawback is the number of available samples.

I am wondering what or who is next.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Heber on September 17, 2011, 08:42:27 AM
Otzi's full genome was sequenced, which should give us a good map of his SNP. Does anyone know if his STRs were analysed.

One source of ancient DNA which remains untapped and is usually in a good state of preservation and associated with some form of documentation is relics.
Last year, I visited the Cathedral of Aachen to view the tomb of Charlemange. His giant skeleton is preserved in a golden casket and exhibited on rare occasions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne

"The physical portrait provided by Einhard is confirmed by contemporary depictions of the emperor, such as coins and his 8-inch (20 cm) bronze statue kept in the Louvre. In 1861, Charlemagne's tomb was opened by scientists who reconstructed his skeleton and estimated it to be measured 74.9 inches (190 centimeters).[12] A modern study based on the dimensions of his tibia estimated his height as 1.84 m. This puts him in the 99th percentile of tall people of his period, given that average male height of his time was 1.69 m."

Europe's cathedrals and churches are full of relics of saints or kings whose lives are reasonably well documented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic#Relics_in_classical_antiquity



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2011, 08:59:03 AM
Geneticists might have a difficult time getting access to relics, especially those of saints.

But there are plenty of archaeological finds of human remains around that could possibly be tested.

I would really like to know the y haplogroup of the Amesbury Archer, for one.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 17, 2011, 07:03:12 PM
Otzi is thought most likely to be from the early Remedello culture which has been suggested as some sort of missing link between the Indo-European east and the later beaker west.   One sample tells you very little but it was a culture that was thought as a possible R1b one. 


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2011, 07:37:59 PM
Otzi is thought most likely to be from the early Remedello culture which has been suggested as some sort of missing link between the Indo-European east and the later beaker west.   One sample tells you very little but it was a culture that was thought as a possible R1b one. 

Yeah, you never know. He could have been the one, lone G2a4 needle in the big, otherwise R1b haystack. That is one of the problems with ancient dna. A lot is read into a single result.

But it is odd that R1b hasn't turned up yet, except for that one from the Lichtenstein Cave circa 1,000 BC.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Humanist on September 17, 2011, 08:53:42 PM
I am thinking more towards G Hg . . .

I just noticed that back on 08 July Mark correctly predicted that Ötzi would be some kind of G, so he gets the grand prize: the internet warmth of all our smiles. ;-)

Nice work, Mark.

Good work, mjost. 

How about this fella's prognostication?  ;)

Quote
"Ötzi’s secrets about to be revealed"

Reply #46 on: August 05, 2010, 08:31:59 AM »
      
Humanist

Perhaps Oetzi is a G2a man.  :)  The Tirol is fertile territory for G2a men.  At least relatively speaking with regard to its general frequency among the European nations.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9550.msg119728#msg119728 (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9550.msg119728#msg119728)


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 18, 2011, 08:28:31 AM
Sorry, Humanist. I should have picked up on that. Guess I missed it because the post was on a different thread.

You called it right down to the third level (G2a).

Good work!


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 19, 2011, 02:33:39 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).
What about ancient DNA of R1b anywhere?  From what I've seen of the STR values, King Tut's Y DNA is almost definitely R-M269. I think he's circa 1300 BC so that would be the oldest I know of.  Of course, that's Egypt.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on September 19, 2011, 06:21:53 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).
What about ancient DNA of R1b anywhere?  From what I've seen of the STR values, King Tut's Y DNA is almost definitely R-M269. I think he's circa 1300 BC so that would be the oldest I know of.  Of course, that's Egypt.

Yeah, I was thinking of Europe really, and, besides that, no one is really sure about that alleged Tut result. It was based on something in the background of a video, as I recall, and might not have been Tut's actual information. Maybe someone else recalls more of the details, but I do remember there is some doubt involved.

But you're right; if Tut is really R1b, that would be the oldest result we have, and it's Bronze Age, as well.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Humanist on September 19, 2011, 08:49:39 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).
What about ancient DNA of R1b anywhere?  From what I've seen of the STR values, King Tut's Y DNA is almost definitely R-M269. I think he's circa 1300 BC so that would be the oldest I know of.  Of course, that's Egypt.

If he is indeed R-M269.  Although Egyptian, there is the possibility his line was Hyksos or Hittite.  Mitanni/Hurrians and Egyptians were marrying off their women to one another for generations.  Granted, women are one thing, men are another.  But, the relationship between two two kingdoms was close.  Nefertiti herself, it is possible, was of at least part Mitanni/Hurrian origin.

http://nabataea.net/EdomMap4.gif 
http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/images/hyksosmap.gif


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 26, 2011, 04:11:43 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).

Correct.  It is interesting that the finds for Hg G are starting to cluster around the Neolithic to Copper age (LBK, Treilles, and maybe Otzi/Remedello).  Although one of the Ergolding Merovingians was G which is an outlier to this emerging pattern or even a migration period descendant.  R1b is showing up Bronze age and later, which is also in line with the STR variance based calculations.  
Maybe there is value in the molecular clock concept and STR variance after all.

Although we have no scientific sampling of ancient Y DNA, at least for Hg G we have a bit of pattern developing.
Quote from: Dienekes
Ötzi, the Tyrolean Iceman belonged to Y-haplogroup G2a4.
We now have G2a3 from Neolithic Linearbandkeramik in Derenburg and G2a in Treilles in addition to Ötzi from the Alps. G2a folk got around.

For R1b this may be not be satisfying for a while. The answer to RMS's question "Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe?" is NO but lack of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think the key when we find ancient R1b is not that it is R1b but what subclade.  There is a big difference between finding R-L23* and R-P312 or R-M222.


Again, he is not European, but Egypt is close. King Tutankhamun is the earliest probably R-M269 guy out there.
Quote from: Jacques P Beaugrand
Assuming that TUTANKHAMON's signature is
DYS393=13 DYS390=24 DYS19=14 DYS391=11 DYS385A=11 DYS385B=14
DYS439=10 DYS389I=13 DYS392=13 DYS389II=30 DYS458=16 DYS437=14
DYS448=19 GATAH4=10 DYS456=15 DYS438=12 DYS635=23

and yhg=R1b1a2

in the French Heritage DNA project some rather close matches are found:

one on 10/10 shared markers (for which they were both tested) with kit#
102715 FONTAINE
and two others  13/16 #173139 DESLEY and #175161 SHAPIRO (of French-canadian
descent, adopted)

and naturally the TREMBLAYs  are not very far with 8/10.

Tutankhamon's signature can be compared here http://bit.ly/ndWARw

Amusing  ...

Jacques B.

A few R-P312 guys on the list.  I just think Tut's signature appears WAMHish.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 17, 2011, 09:24:19 PM
From “Dienekes’ Anthropology blog”


Even though Ötzi came out a Caucasian in his autosomal data, would your hypothesis be demonstrated? I think not. We should have the data of those who killed him and of others: they probably considered him a foreigner, an outcast. It is possible that he was a Caucasian metalworker migrated to Italian ores, even though the link of the merchants of obsidian from the Aegean Sea (and Italy) from 15000YBP should be kept in mind, then the presence of G2a in Western Europe from very ancient times, and one centre of diffusion of this haplogroup is in Sardinia and it isn’t said that the Caucasus were its place of origin, even though now, that we have mt K3 besides K1 and K2 , and K3 is from Caucasus, it is possible that the K* of Ötzi was from Caucasus more than from Western Europe (even though I think that K, from U8b/K, is clearly from Western Europe in its origin).
I think having demonstrated in my postings that the supposed Middle Eastern mt-haplogroup like R0a, HV4, HV1a’b’c etc. come probably from Italy (and between the LGM and the Younger Dryas).
And what will you say if Ötzi’s autosomal were linked to Sardinians or Tuscans and not to Caucasians?

Dienekes says: “It seems that my prediction that the Iceman will turn out to be Mediterranean in terms of his autosomal genetic components was right!”

“he is more related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula”

This isn’t “Mediterranean” and less “Greek”: this is Italian, those Italians from Sardinia, Tuscany and Liguria who peopled like agriculturalists (cultural ones and not demic from Middle East) from 7500 YBP also Spain.

If there is someone whose hypotheses are winning is me, with all the respect and admiration I have always had for you.

And, please, let’s stop to consider Sicilians something else from Italians, because they maintain the  Y and mt of the most ancient Italians.

Dienekes’ answer:
This isn’t “Mediterranean” and less “Greek”: this is Italian, those Italians from Sardinia, Tuscany and Liguria who peopled like agriculturalists (cultural ones and not demic from Middle East) from 7500 YBP also Spain.

We'll have to see the details. First of all, no one said anything about "Greek", so stop hallucinating. Second, Sardinia and Sicily are Mediterranean islands, and they are not part of the Italian peninsula. Third, it may suck for your Italian uber-refugium theory that a prehistoric North Italian has links to Sardinians, Sicilians, and Iberians, but apparently not Tuscans. I guess you'll have to modify your theories.
Monday, October 17, 2011




Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 18, 2011, 03:34:15 AM
“The connection is that they (meaning Iberian isolates, today) are less "tainted" by later migrations - first agriculturalists from Anatolia, cattle farming IE people from the north, seafarers from the Levant and Greece, and multi-culti introduced by Romans”.

Someone thinks to me like an Italocentric person.
What should we think about “eurologist”?

1)   “first agriculturalists” came from Anatolia (there are papers that demonstrate that they came from Italy 7500 YBP by sea, and that they were Italians become agriculturalists)
2)   “cattle farming IE people from the north”:  others think from East. My positions is that IE is linked to Etruscan-Rhaetian-Camun and was formed in Central Europe, but they came out from the Italian refugium
3)   “seafarers from the Levant and Greece”: opposite fans counted twice or more those hg. T etc.
4)   Romans of course introduced only multicultural persons and not themselves….

But why “eurologist”? “Deutsche-un-logiker” would be better.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on October 23, 2011, 06:07:41 AM
The big "Mummies from the Ice" conference in Bolzano, Italy, took place this past Thursday through Saturday (20-22 October 2011). Has anyone heard any news? They were supposed to release Ötzi's entire genome. It was probably pretty fascinating.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 23, 2011, 06:47:12 AM
Dienekes says: "Yesterday, I twitted in exasperation that Otzi's genome, which must have been available in at least some sort of draft form since at least the beginning of this year, has been under lock and key, presumably because of the need to make a big splash with the simultaneous Bolzano conference, TV special, likely imminent journal publication, and all the media stories that will follow".


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: OConnor on October 23, 2011, 06:55:31 AM
I found the conference,but I couldn't find any results.


2nd BOLZANO MUMMY CONGRESS - OCTOBER 20th - 22nd 2011
                                       MUMMIES FROM THE ICE

http://www.eurac.eu/en/research/institutes/iceman/Activities/mummycongress/2011/pages/Programme.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on October 23, 2011, 07:02:14 AM
I found the conference,but I couldn't find any results.


2nd BOLZANO MUMMY CONGRESS - OCTOBER 20th - 22nd 2011
                                       MUMMIES FROM THE ICE

http://www.eurac.eu/en/research/institutes/iceman/Activities/mummycongress/2011/pages/Programme.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

Looks like it was an interesting conference.

Still we peasants wait for news.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Heber on October 29, 2011, 09:08:17 AM
The Bolanza Mummy conference came and went without the publication of Otzi's genome. This is a great disappointment. Dienekes says:

"The 90% of the Iceman genome that has been sequenced will remain locked up. This will ensure that some of the "100 Ötzi researchers" will have the time to write their papers without fear of competition, and that the journals that will publish them will have the exclusivity necessary to make a profit. Only losers: (a) the public in several nations, which makes possible, directly or indirectly this type of research, and (b) Science, which must take second place behind more ephemeral concerns."

What we do know from the conference is:

"There was broad agreement at the Bolzano Congress about the last hour of his life. Albert Zink, Head of the Institute for Mummy Research at EURAC, reports as follows about the circumstances of the Iceman's death: "He felt safe enough to take a break, and settled down to a copious meal. While thus resting, he was attacked, shot with an arrow and left for dead." There was no evidence pointing to a possible burial as some scientists have suggested in the past. "The position of the mummified body with his arm pointing obliquely upwards, the lack of any piles of stones or other features which often accompany burial sites, runs counter to the burial theory," he continues."

We do know that his haplogroup is G2A4 and is closest to the Sardinian signature. Dienekes has an interesting analysis on the uniqueness of Sardinian DNA this week.

"There is, however, one population that stands as an outlier against the backdrop of discontinuity: Sardinians. Ghirotto et al. inferred population continuity in Sardinian mtDNA at least until the Bronze Age. Stories about the Tyrolean Iceman, confirmed in the NOVA TV documentary suggest that a 5,000-year old denizen of Central Europe was genetically closest to Sardinians."

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

Lets hope that the reason for the delay in publishing Otzi's genome is due to the fact that spectacular disoveries have been made which require further detailed research, rather than some PR exercise.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on October 29, 2011, 09:57:38 AM
We're lucky Dr. Vigl let his y haplogroup slip!


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on October 29, 2011, 10:50:12 AM
By the way, that is an interesting post at Dienekes' blog: October 28, 2011,
"Sardinian continuity against a backdrop of European discontinuity".

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/ (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/)

Quote
If I had to guess, I would propose that most extant Europeans will be discovered to be a 2-way West Asian/Ancestral European mix, just as most South Asians are a simple West Asian/Ancestral South Indian mix. In both cases, the indigenous component is no longer in existence and the South Asian/Atlantic_Baltic components that emerge in ADMIXTURE analyses represent a composite of the aboriginal component with the introduced West Asian one. And, like in India, some populations will be discovered to be "off-cline" by admixture with different elements: in Europe these will be Paleo-Mediterraneans like the Iceman, an element maximally preserved in modern Sardinians, as well as the East Eurasian-influenced populations at the North-Eastern side of the continent.

I have been saying something similar since I first got into genetic genealogy back in 2006. I never accepted the old, "R1b Cro-Magnon" scenario.

I wouldn't say "the indigenous component is no longer in existence", although some of it probably no longer exists, except in autosomal form. However, I do think some indigenous y and mtDNA haplogroups still exist in Europe but in much reduced, vestigial form. They are among the small, seemingly odd clades one finds here and there among persons of European ancestry.



Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 29, 2011, 12:27:07 PM
Before we knew Ötzi’s haplogroup, of course we bet about it and I hoped it had come out an R1b which would have resolved our questions, but I still said that I’d have been glad of whichever would have demonstrated that the calculations about the ancientness of the haplogroups would have been demonstrated wrong. This has happened.
At the news it was G2a4, many thought to a recent introgression from Caucasus. I said hg. G is very ancient in Italy and one centre of diffusion to all Western Europe is in Sardinia. Now nobody thinks that Ötzi is a recent immigrant from Caucasus.
After Mister Tyrolean announced that he matches closer than other peoples Sardinians, Sicilians and Iberians (isolate populations). Dienekes said they weren’t “Italians”, but Mediterranean Islanders. Dienekes wrote under a posting of his about Ötzi “Austria” and not Italy like I think everybody should write.

I don’t like particularly Maju and his Basquism nor Dienekes and his Greekism (and they of course are free to not like my Italianism, even though Maju is 25% Italian and Dienekes, if he is whom I think, even much more, and they are free to not publish my posts: their blogs are theirs and they do what they like), but it seems to me that Maju (who of course like me believes in an ancient presence of R1b in Western Europe: he probably in Iberia and I in Italy) has said some important things in his reply to Dienekes.

“I do not think that is possible. If in South Asia (a perfectly comparable case, as you say well) the ancestral component (ASI) is still clearly apparent, as well as the ASI-ANI duality, why don't we see anything like that in Europe?
The reason is that there has NOT been any significant West Asian immigration with Neolithic. And therefore the components we see (not always exactly the same but with tendency to repeat across studies) are actually pre-Neolithic stuff, with the West Asian component still apparent as such West Asian (and Red Sea) components.
These still make up (using your K=11 analysis) 44% in South Italy, 40% among Greeks, 36% in Central Italy, 30% among Tuscans, 24% among Romanians, 16% in North Italy, etc.
Alternatively, you seem to be able to discern that the North European component is closes to that of West Asia. Much closer than the Mediterranean or even the Red Sea component. This offers another interesting possibility: that North Europe was the part of Europe which was actually colonized by (blondish?) people from Turkey and such.
I'd rather think this only indicates maybe a second Paleolithic layer but that is what your own analysis has to offer - and not what you are saying.
Sardinians would then be 100% of another component, which may or not have arrived from the East (it's rare in West Asia, excepting Cyprus) and that we could describe as Greco-Italian for the two regions that have it above 30% (although you use the term "Mediterranean" instead).
But I do not dare to say more because I really do not like too much your analysis strategy, discarding important European components and retaining once and again exotic pointless components from Africa and East Asia”
Probably the answer is yet in the Dienekes’ analysis:

“At K=10 […]as well as a Sardinian-Basque one:
[150,] "O_Italian_D" "39.5"
[151,] "C_Italian_D" "40.4"
[152,] "French_D" "41.4"
[153,] "French" "41.5"
[154,] "N_Italian_D" "43.1"
[155,] "Tuscan" "43.5"
[156,] "TSI" "43.7"
[157,] " Portuguese_D" "46.2"
[158,] "North_Italian" "47.2"
[159,] "Spanish_D" "51.1"
[160,] "Spaniards" "51.2"
[161,] "IBS" "51.8"
[162,] "Basque_D" "68"
[163,] "French_Basque" "69.3"
[164,] "Sardinian" "77"

Not only I think having demonstrated that many mt haplogroups (R0a, HV1a’b’c, HV4) are born in Italy and diffused till Arabia, and these are the ancestral to all European haplogroups with U/K, but I am always waiting that an R1b will come out from ancient Europe: the presence of it, from R-M207 to R1b1 to its subclades and some decisive knots (R-L23+/L150-, R-L51+), indicates that here is its origin. Of course every haplogroup has a wide diffusion specially in its oldest subclades.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Heber on November 01, 2011, 11:56:35 AM
More  G2A Ancient DNA has been found in Iberia.

Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination
Marie Lacan et al.
"Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b.

Dienekes has commented on it on his blog:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

"The discovery of G2a is added to the finds from Treilles, Derenburg, and the Alps. It is now virtually certain that the Neolithic transition in much of Europe, both inland, and coastal involved G2a-bearing men."

"The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date. "

"While this Neolithic E-V13 may well have come from the Balkans, and the common ancestor of the very uniform present-day Balkan cluster may have lived after this Spanish find, it is now certain that E-V13 was established in Europe long before the Bronze Age. This highlights the need to avoid Y-STR based calculations on modern populations for inferring patterns of ancient history, and not to conflate TMRCAs with "dates of arrival": "In short: a particular TMRCA is consistent with either the arrival of the lineage long before and long after the TMRCA in a particular geographical area."

"At least for now, three of the major players of the European genetic landscape (E-V13, G2a, and I2a) have made their Neolithic appearance. Hopefully, as more ancient DNA is published, and even from later dates, more of them will turn up."

Does this mean that R1b is likley to be younger post neolithic expansion associated with Iron Age or Bell Beaker expansion? And where does this leave Myers and Busby older age estimates?


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 01, 2011, 02:58:11 PM
Dienekes has commented on it on his blog...
"The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date. "

"While this Neolithic E-V13 may well have come from the Balkans, and the common ancestor of the very uniform present-day Balkan cluster may have lived after this Spanish find, it is now certain that E-V13 was established in Europe long before the Bronze Age. This highlights the need to avoid Y-STR based calculations on modern populations for inferring patterns of ancient history, and not to conflate TMRCAs with "dates of arrival": "In short: a particular TMRCA is consistent with either the arrival of the lineage long before and long after the TMRCA in a particular geographical area."
Well, at least Dienekes is consistent in his feelings about STR variance when he said before "STRs #$#&!!!"

Good news is he is being more specific in relating to use of applying STR variance in comparing geographies. That is particularly legitimate, because one paragroup of a particular subclade in a particular country may (probably) not have a MRCA from that country as compared to the other country.

However, I didn't get the point why he is throwing in his two cents on STR variance related to the above.

Both E-V12* and E-V13 are found in Spain. See table at bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_%28Y-DNA%29

Marko Heinila has the interclade TMRCA for E-V12 and E-V13 as 7.2K ybp.... umm... just about right for the Neolithic early advances to Iberia. That doesn't guarantee E-V12 and E-V13 came to Iberia during the Neolith but is added evidence that they could have.  It is evidence that they didn't come earlier than the Neolith.

Perhaps Dienekes was arguing against the badness of evolutionary mutation rates or something and was just throwing that in with the general badness of STRs. LOL


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 01, 2011, 06:52:47 PM
Dienekes has commented on it on his blog...
"The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date. "

"While this Neolithic E-V13 may well have come from the Balkans, and the common ancestor of the very uniform present-day Balkan cluster may have lived after this Spanish find, it is now certain that E-V13 was established in Europe long before the Bronze Age. This highlights the need to avoid Y-STR based calculations on modern populations for inferring patterns of ancient history, and not to conflate TMRCAs with "dates of arrival": "In short: a particular TMRCA is consistent with either the arrival of the lineage long before and long after the TMRCA in a particular geographical area."
Well, at least Dienekes is consistent in his feelings about STR variance when he said before "STRs #$#&!!!"

Good news is he is being more specific in relating to use of applying STR variance in comparing geographies. That is particularly legitimate, because one paragroup of a particular subclade in a particular country may (probably) not have a MRCA from that country as compared to the other country.

However, I didn't get the point why he is throwing in his two cents on STR variance related to the above.

Both E-V12* and E-V13 are found in Spain. See table at bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_%28Y-DNA%29

Marko Heinila has the interclade TMRCA for E-V12 and E-V13 as 7.2K ybp.... umm... just about right for the Neolithic early advances to Iberia. That doesn't guarantee E-V12 and E-V13 came to Iberia during the Neolith but is added evidence that they could have.  It is evidence that they didn't come earlier than the Neolith.

Perhaps Dienekes was arguing against the badness of evolutionary mutation rates or something and was just throwing that in with the general badness of STRs. LOL
Dienekes reply is that for E-V12 and E-V13 to be there in the Neolithic but to originate in the Near East they would have had to move very quickly to get to Spain.

I think that is a good point and I agree that E-V12 and E-V13's MRCA may well be older than 7.2K ybp.  However, the TMRCA interclade estimate does have a wide error range that would encompass the LBK, for example, or the Cardial Wares. The estimates are really "coalescence" ages, Ken N says, which is the age of expansion not really the MRCA.  Well, anyway, if Dienekes is saying TMRCAs are imprecise. I agree and he is correct. However, they do have a relative value at the least.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on November 01, 2011, 07:48:22 PM
More  G2A Ancient DNA has been found in Iberia.

Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination
Marie Lacan et al.
"Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b.

Dienekes has commented on it on his blog:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

"The discovery of G2a is added to the finds from Treilles, Derenburg, and the Alps. It is now virtually certain that the Neolithic transition in much of Europe, both inland, and coastal involved G2a-bearing men."

"The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date. "

"While this Neolithic E-V13 may well have come from the Balkans, and the common ancestor of the very uniform present-day Balkan cluster may have lived after this Spanish find, it is now certain that E-V13 was established in Europe long before the Bronze Age. This highlights the need to avoid Y-STR based calculations on modern populations for inferring patterns of ancient history, and not to conflate TMRCAs with "dates of arrival": "In short: a particular TMRCA is consistent with either the arrival of the lineage long before and long after the TMRCA in a particular geographical area."

"At least for now, three of the major players of the European genetic landscape (E-V13, G2a, and I2a) have made their Neolithic appearance. Hopefully, as more ancient DNA is published, and even from later dates, more of them will turn up."

Does this mean that R1b is likley to be younger post neolithic expansion associated with Iron Age or Bell Beaker expansion? And where does this leave Myers and Busby older age estimates?

Well, that is interesting and makes me feel pretty good. I wrote this a day or two ago over on another thread:

Quote
I think it is possible that G2a was at one time the default y haplogroup in southern Europe, along with I2a.

I also mentioned that I thought the Tripolye people probably had some E1b1b among them but probably not much R1b, if any.

I know Spain is a long way from the Balkans, but it is interesting that still no R1b has been found thus far in Europe older than the Bronze Age.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Arch Y. on November 10, 2011, 11:14:17 PM
What is even more weird, that no Bronze Age R1b has been found anywhere. The lack of R1b finds from anywhere, and even dating from 18kya is very frustrating. Perhaps this is due to burial practices, and environment conditions in Eurasia since 18kya?

R1b must have primarily roamed a region of humidity, forests, rivers, etc. Maybe all this attributes to the lack of R1b being found in Europe, etc. The G, H, I, J must have been entombed in places where it was extremely cold or hot, and dry; perhaps before or during the height of the LGM. Maybe the best we can hope for R1b is a peat bog for preservation, but who knows when this kind of burial was practiced. Plus finding it. :-(

Arch


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on November 10, 2011, 11:21:06 PM
The one R1b from the Lichtenstein Cave dates to about 1,000 BC.

That's Bronze Age in Northern Europe.

It's the oldest R1b thus far found.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Arch Y. on November 13, 2011, 04:33:21 PM
The one R1b from the Lichtenstein Cave dates to about 1,000 BC.

That's Bronze Age in Northern Europe.

It's the oldest R1b thus far found.

Also, with all the research that has been conducted in Anatolia, I'm quite surprised that we haven't seen one shred of evidence for R1b's presence there. Why is it so difficult to find R1b?

Arch


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Heber on November 13, 2011, 08:02:20 PM
Maybe the best we can hope for R1b is a peat bog for preservation, but who knows when this kind of burial was practiced. Plus finding it. :-(

Arch

I asked that question of the curator of the exhibition, Kingship and Sacrifice, in the National Museum of Ireland, which exhibited two well preserved bog bodies. She said that the acid bog water which preserves the bodies also "stews" them which destroys any traces of DNA.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Mark Jost on February 18, 2012, 11:20:32 AM
Great Riddles in Archaeology Lecture Series: Ötzi the Iceman
Penn Museum
Dr. Thomas Tartaron
February 1, 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZJpRTrYDeI&feature=player_embedded


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Heber on May 03, 2012, 06:57:47 AM

Interesting report from the BBC. They have found red blood cells on Oetzi, the oldest known red blood cells ever discovered. It presents new evidence about how he died and his last hours.

"Researchers studying Oetzi, a 5,300-year-old body found frozen in the Italian Alps in 1991, have found red blood cells around his wounds.

Blood cells tend to degrade quickly, and earlier scans for blood within Oetzi's body turned up nothing.

Now a study in the Journal of the Royal Society Interface shows that Oetzi's remarkable preservation extends even to the blood he shed shortly before dying.

The find represents by far the oldest red blood cells ever observed.

It is just the latest chapter in what could be described as the world's oldest murder mystery.

Since Oetzi was first found by hikers with an arrow buried in his back, experts have determined that he died from his wounds and what his last meal was.

There has been extensive debate as to whether he fell where he died or was buried there by others.

In February, Albert Zink and colleagues at the Eurac Institute for Mummies and the Iceman in Bolzano, Italy published Oetzi's full genome."


That, Prof Zink explained, seems to solve one of the elements of the murder mystery.

"Because fibrin is present in fresh wounds and then degrades, the theory that Oetzi died some days after he had been injured by the arrow, as had once been mooted, can no longer be upheld," he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17909396




Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Arwunbee on May 03, 2012, 08:27:20 AM
Apparently they found in his blood that his cholesterol was very high and thus his last meal was theorised to be a Big Mac, but scientists at the KFC Sanders Institute of Junkfood (SIOJ) are disputing this now due to the recently found presence of all 11 herbs and spices in his pouch.  Furthermore, one of KFC's anthrapologists believes this to be the first case of corporate espionage in world history.


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Heber on September 05, 2012, 03:43:02 PM
11% of the men in the Otzal Alps share the same G2A Halpogroup of Otzi.

"Tracking the Iceman’s scent by high resolution mapping of Y haplogroup G in Tyrol (Austria)
Berger B1, Niederstätter H1, Erhart D1, Gassner C2,3, Schennach H3, Parson W1,*
1Institute of Legal Medicine, Innsbruck Medical University, Innsbruck, Austria
2Blood Transfusion Service Zürich, SRC, Schlieren, Switzerland
3Central Institute for Blood Transfusion & Immunological Department, Innsbruck, Austria
The analysis of human Y chromosome variation is a well established tool for investigating human history on the basis of present-day genetic diversity. Most recently, progress in ancient DNA analysis makes direct comparisons with genetic data from archeological remains increasingly possible. For example, there is evidence from ancient genetic data for a high frequency of Y chromosomal haplogroup G (Hg) in prehistoric populations of Central Europe, whilst nowadays the density distribution of these Y chromosomes reaches its peak in the Caucasus. The most recent and most prominent example for these findings is the “Tyrolean Iceman”. The 5,300 years old mummy was found in the Ötztal Alps near the border between Italy and Tyrol (Austria). Y chromosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms (Y-SNP) analysis assigned the Iceman to a sub-branch of G2a, which is defined by the SNP L91. This particular Hg is very rare in present-day populations of Europe (< 1%).
In this work we set out to test for elevated levels of G2a and in particular of G-L91 in present-day paternal lineages in the remote mountain regions near to the site where the Iceman was found. A population sample comprising 3,713 specimens from men living in Tyrol was genotyped for 19 Y-SNPs by single-nucleotide primer extension. This set included the G2a defining marker P15. Preliminary results indicated that app. 11% of the Y chromosomes belonged to G2a. The spatial distribution of this Hg featured unexpectedly high densities within or near the Ötztal Alps. L91 and additional SNPs such as L32, L487, and L645 are increasing the resolution within G2a and will refine this pattern."

http://dna2012.gerichtsmedizin.at/files/DNA_in_Forensics_2012.pdf


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Heber on September 05, 2012, 04:44:36 PM
In contrast to the Y haplogroup, the mtDNA haplogroup of Otzi, K1, appears to have died out in the region.

"Genetic relationship between modern populations and the Neolithic Tyrolean Iceman
Coia V1,*, Cipollini G1, Maixner F1, Brisighelli F2,3, Capelli C4, Battaggia C3, Destro Bisol G3,5, Zink A1
1European Academy of Bolzano (EURAC-research), Institute for Mummies and the Iceman, Bolzano, Italy 2Universidade de Santiago de Compostela, Unidade de Xenética, Facultade de Medicina, Instituto de Ciencias Forenses, Santiago de Compostela, Spain
3Dipartimento Biologia Ambientale, Università La Sapienza, Roma, Italy
4Department of Zoology, University of Oxford, Oxford, United Kingdom 5Istituto Italiano di Antropologia, Roma, Italy
After its discovery in the Italian part of the Ötztal Alps in early 90s, numerous archaeological, biochemical and genetic studies have been concerned with the mummified body of the Tyrolean Iceman, an individual who lived in the south ridge of the Alpine area during the Copper Age (about 5,300 y.a). However, some important questions remain unresolved. The key aspect regards the genetic relationships between the Iceman and modern populations. In fact, recent study on the complete genome of the mitochondrial DNA showed that the Iceman belonged to a branch of haplogroup K1 (named K1f or K1Ö defined by two specific mutations, the 3513T and 8137T), that has not yet been found in extant populations. These results suggests that this lineage could be now extinct or very rare. However, this study was limited by the scarcity of data from modern European populations, especially from the Alpine region of interest. In the framework of the ongoing project “Reconstruction of the peopling of Eastern Alps by analyzing the genetic variability of modern populations and comparison with ancient DNA data” we are analyzing the complete mtdna genome of K lineages (at least 50) from different areas of oriental alps and collecting all complete K mtdna data available from literature. The genetic data will be analyzed in order to get an updated phylogenetic tree of haplogroup K in Europe and to test the presence of lineage related to the Iceman.
(The project is supported by the “Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano – Alto Adige, Ripartizione Diritto allo studio, università e ricerca scientifica, Postdoctoral Research Fellow to V. C)".


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: OConnor on November 13, 2012, 01:56:42 PM
Otzi is back in the news.

Iceman was Central Europe native, new research finds.

Otzi the Iceman, an astonishingly well-preserved Neolithic mummy found in the Italian Alps in 1991, was a native of Central Europe, not a first-generation émigré from Sardinia, new research shows. And genetically, he looked a lot like other Stone Age farmers throughout Europe.

The new findings, reported Thursday here at the American Society of Human Genetics conference, support the theory that farmers, and not just the technology of farming, spread during prehistoric times from the Middle East all the way to Finland.

"The idea is that the spread of farming and agriculture, right now we have good evidence that it was also associated with a movement of people and not only technology," said study co-author Martin Sikora, a geneticist at Stanford University.

In what may be the world's oldest cold case, Otzi was pierced by an arrow and bled to death on a glacier in the Alps between Austria and Italy more than 5,000 years ago. [ Album: A New Face for Otzi the Iceman ]

Scientists sequenced Otzi's genome earlier this year, yielding a surprising result: The Iceman was more closely related to present-day Sardinians than he was to present-day Central Europeans.

But the researchers sequenced only part of the genome, and the results didn't resolve an underlying question: Did most of the Neolithic people in Central Europe have genetic profiles more characteristic of Sardinia, or had Otzi's family recently emigrated from Southern Europe?

"Maybe Otzi was just a tourist, maybe his parents were Sardinian and he decided to move to the Alps," Sikora said.

That would have required Otzi's family to travel hundreds of miles, an unlikely prospect, Sikora said.

"Five thousand years ago, it's not really expected that our populations were so mobile," Sikora told LiveScience.

To answer that question, Sikora's team sequenced Otzi's entire genome and compared it with those from hundreds of modern-day Europeans, as well as the genomes of a Stone Age hunter-gatherer found in Sweden, a farmer from Sweden, a 7,000-year-old hunter-gatherer iceman found in Iberia and an Iron Age man found in Bulgaria.

The team confirmed that, of modern people, Sardinians are Otzi's closest relatives. But among the prehistoric quartet, Otzi most closely resembled the farmers found in Bulgaria and Sweden, while the Swedish and Iberian hunter-gatherers looked more like present-day Northern Europeans.
 
 The findings support the notion that people migrating from the Middle East all the way to Northern Europe brought agriculture with them and mixed with the native hunter gatherers, enabling the population to explode, Sikora said.

While the traces of these ancient migrations are largely lost in most of Europe, Sardinian islanders remained more isolated and therefore retain larger genetic traces of those first Neolithic farmers, Sikora said.

The findings add to a growing body of evidence showing that farming played a major role in shaping the people of Europe, said Chris Gignoux, a geneticist at the University of California San Francisco, who was not involved in the study.

"I think it's really intriguing," Gignoux said. "The more that people are sequencing these ancient genomes from Europe, that we're really starting to see the impact of farmers moving into Europe."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49760676/ns/technology_and_science-science/#.UJ1WzsX1F8E


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: rms2 on November 14, 2012, 04:59:50 AM
Quote
. . . Chris Gignoux, a geneticist at the University of California San Francisco . . .

Chris Gignoux was one of our first French L21+ guys, back when he worked for 23andMe. :-)


Title: Re: Coming Very Soon: Ötzi's Y Haplogroup (and his entire genome!)
Post by: Heber on November 21, 2012, 03:48:18 AM
Here is a good article about Otzi  from Roberta.

http://dna-explained.com/2012/11/21/otzi-was-a-brown-eyed-left-handed-farmer/