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Title: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: GoldenHind on June 20, 2011, 05:18:47 PM
The same people who identified Z196 in the data of the 1000 Genomes Project have found another SNP below P312 which is independent of all other SNPs currently known there: it has been named DF19. It was found in three P312* individuals- two from Britain and one from central Europe (nfd). They estimate about 3 to 11 percent of P312(XL21,U152,L176.2) will be positive for it. FTDNA is already offering testing for it, and a number of orders have been placed for it. However all but one from France have surnames from the British Isles, so I am expecting a repeat of the scenario with L21, where the pundits try to assign an origin for it in the British Isles, based on the early testing results. We need some testing from those with continental ancestry. I believe DF19 wasn't found in any of the 1000 Genomes individuals of Iberian ancestry, so it may be primarily nothern European.  


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on June 24, 2011, 08:00:43 PM
I sent out a bulk email to the members of the R-P312 and Subclades Project on DF19 this morning. Orders are coming in already, so we should know more very soon.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: GoldenHind on July 22, 2011, 08:36:06 PM

FTDNA has announced the first four results for DF19.  Three with origins in England were all negative (one is Z196+); the only positive is from Germany.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on July 22, 2011, 08:54:51 PM

FTDNA has announced the first four results for DF19.  Three with origins in England were all negative (one is Z196+); the only positive is from Germany.

Interesting! I kind of hope that trend holds and DF19 proves to be mostly continental, with maybe a select few British Isles guys.

L238 certainly seems to be holding strongly Scandinavian, judging by today's lab results.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: GoldenHind on July 23, 2011, 04:00:20 PM

FTDNA has announced the first four results for DF19.  Three with origins in England were all negative (one is Z196+); the only positive is from Germany.

Interesting! I kind of hope that trend holds and DF19 proves to be mostly continental, with maybe a select few British Isles guys.

L238 certainly seems to be holding strongly Scandinavian, judging by today's lab results.

Two out of three of the 1000 Genomes samples in which DF19 was initially found were from Britain, so it seems unlikely that it will be primarily continental. However I hope the continental presence will be sufficient to prevent some of the absurd positions taken L21 was first discovered.

As to L238, it is proving to be extremely rare. So far it has only been found in Sweden, Norway and England.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: GoldenHind on July 31, 2011, 09:32:30 PM

FTDNA has announced the first four results for DF19.  Three with origins in England were all negative (one is Z196+); the only positive is from Germany.

The German DF19+ has origins in Lower Saxony. We know that two of the three DF19+ from the 1000 Genomes Project were from Great Britain. Of course it is far too early to draw any inferences, but I have been trying to think of possible connections between the two areas. So far the following scenarios come to mind:

1) a wandering British monk who went to Germany to try to convert the pagan Saxons,
2) a Scottish merchant or mercenary who shipped out from Aberdeen to Hannover,
3) a member of the "highly mobile medieval merchant class" (such as innkeepers) who migrated from Britain to Germany.

Can anyone think of any other possibilities?
 


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: Jdean on August 01, 2011, 03:26:20 AM

FTDNA has announced the first four results for DF19.  Three with origins in England were all negative (one is Z196+); the only positive is from Germany.

The German DF19+ has origins in Lower Saxony. We know that two of the three DF19+ from the 1000 Genomes Project were from Great Britain. Of course it is far too early to draw any inferences, but I have been trying to think of possible connections between the two areas. So far the following scenarios come to mind:

1) a wandering British monk who went to Germany to try to convert the pagan Saxons,
2) a Scottish merchant or mercenary who shipped out from Aberdeen to Hannover,
3) a member of the "highly mobile medieval merchant class" (such as innkeepers) who migrated from Britain to Germany.

Can anyone think of any other possibilities?
 

You forgot the medieval tourist industry, or was that covered under option 1 ??


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: GoldenHind on August 01, 2011, 04:43:30 PM

FTDNA has announced the first four results for DF19.  Three with origins in England were all negative (one is Z196+); the only positive is from Germany.

The German DF19+ has origins in Lower Saxony. We know that two of the three DF19+ from the 1000 Genomes Project were from Great Britain. Of course it is far too early to draw any inferences, but I have been trying to think of possible connections between the two areas. So far the following scenarios come to mind:

1) a wandering British monk who went to Germany to try to convert the pagan Saxons,
2) a Scottish merchant or mercenary who shipped out from Aberdeen to Hannover,
3) a member of the "highly mobile medieval merchant class" (such as innkeepers) who migrated from Britain to Germany.

Can anyone think of any other possibilities?
 

You forgot the medieval tourist industry, or was that covered under option 1 ??

Excellent point. The monks probably were involved in the medieval pilgrimage tourist trade, but I think it's better to add a fourth possibility: a British pilgrim to the shrine of St. Iago de Hannover.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 01, 2011, 11:02:00 PM

FTDNA has announced the first four results for DF19.  Three with origins in England were all negative (one is Z196+); the only positive is from Germany.

The German DF19+ has origins in Lower Saxony. We know that two of the three DF19+ from the 1000 Genomes Project were from Great Britain. Of course it is far too early to draw any inferences, but I have been trying to think of possible connections between the two areas. So far the following scenarios come to mind:

1) a wandering British monk who went to Germany to try to convert the pagan Saxons,
2) a Scottish merchant or mercenary who shipped out from Aberdeen to Hannover,
3) a member of the "highly mobile medieval merchant class" (such as innkeepers) who migrated from Britain to Germany.
Can anyone think of any other possibilities?
You forgot the medieval tourist industry, or was that covered under option 1 ??
Excellent point. The monks probably were involved in the medieval pilgrimage tourist trade, but I think it's better to add a fourth possibility: a British pilgrim to the shrine of St. Iago de Hannover.
'
There is another consideration. In a couple of family cases I hear stories of British soldiers that may have been involved.
I don't know, but I do think that we pay a great deal of attention to the Bryan Sykes' perspective of ancient populations' heavy influence on the genetic composition of a people. That's all fine, but perhaps in terms of paternal lineages, recent influences may be more critical.
It's obvious that large sublclades like M222 and L226 made a huge difference in paternal lineages.
So why wouldn't soldiers of the empire "of which the sun never set", that is the British empire, have made an impact?
I'm not in anyway saying they would have the same impact of Nialls or Ghengis Kahn, but they still could be apparent, at least in terms of populations that have affinity towards gin/quinine and DNA testing.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: GoldenHind on August 03, 2011, 03:28:22 PM

FTDNA has announced the first four results for DF19.  Three with origins in England were all negative (one is Z196+); the only positive is from Germany.

The German DF19+ has origins in Lower Saxony. We know that two of the three DF19+ from the 1000 Genomes Project were from Great Britain. Of course it is far too early to draw any inferences, but I have been trying to think of possible connections between the two areas. So far the following scenarios come to mind:

1) a wandering British monk who went to Germany to try to convert the pagan Saxons,
2) a Scottish merchant or mercenary who shipped out from Aberdeen to Hannover,
3) a member of the "highly mobile medieval merchant class" (such as innkeepers) who migrated from Britain to Germany.
Can anyone think of any other possibilities?
You forgot the medieval tourist industry, or was that covered under option 1 ??
Excellent point. The monks probably were involved in the medieval pilgrimage tourist trade, but I think it's better to add a fourth possibility: a British pilgrim to the shrine of St. Iago de Hannover.
'
There is another consideration. In a couple of family cases I hear stories of British soldiers that may have been involved.
I don't know, but I do think that we pay a great deal of attention to the Bryan Sykes' perspective of ancient populations' heavy influence on the genetic composition of a people. That's all fine, but perhaps in terms of paternal lineages, recent influences may be more critical.
It's obvious that large sublclades like M222 and L226 made a huge difference in paternal lineages.
So why wouldn't soldiers of the empire "of which the sun never set", that is the British empire, have made an impact?
I'm not in anyway saying they would have the same impact of Nialls or Ghengis Kahn, but they still could be apparent, at least in terms of populations that have affinity towards gin/quinine and DNA testing.

I'm not completely convinced you're treating this discussion with the seriousness which it obviously merits, but you do have a good point. Modern events should be considered, perhaps even preferred, when explaining away these sort of genetic anomalies. So though it is rather similar to the Scottish mercenary scenario, I will therefor add a British soldier serving in the Hannoverian army to the list.

I should also note that after the unification of Germany, the 20th Prussian Army Corps was headquartered in Hannover. Enlisting in its ranks would be a natural choice for British youth seeking an exciting and carefree experience abroad, with the added bonus of the always present possibility of an all-expenses paid visit to Paris.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on September 27, 2011, 07:09:11 PM
We just got our first DF19+ result in the R-P312 and Subclades Project: Garrett, kit 166103, who traces his ancestry to Ireland. Garrett doesn't sound like a native Gaelic Irish surname to me, but I could be wrong about that.

I created an R-DF19 category. Right now, he's the only one in it.

We've had a couple of DF19- results. As I recall, both of them were Spanish guys.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on September 27, 2011, 08:10:33 PM
We just got our first DF19+ result in the R-P312 and Subclades Project: Garrett, kit 166103, who traces his ancestry to Ireland. Garrett doesn't sound like a native Gaelic Irish surname to me, but I could be wrong about that.

I created an R-DF19 category. Right now, he's the only one in it.

We've had a couple of DF19- results. As I recall, both of them were Spanish guys.


There is a boatload of overdue DF19 tests on the Pending Lab Results page at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

I hope those results start rolling in. Some of them are over a month late already, closing in on two months.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on October 04, 2011, 07:22:45 PM
We got a bunch of DF19 results in the R-P312 and Subclades Project this evening. By far, most of them were negative.

The positive results were interesting, though: one with a British Isles surname (Fletcher) brick-walled in the USA, one with ancestry in Ireland, one with ancestry in Scotland, one with ancestry in Belgium, and one with ancestry in the Czech Republic.

But that was it: five positive results out 42 total. That's about 12%.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2011, 08:18:08 PM
We got a bunch of DF19 results in the R-P312 and Subclades Project this evening. By far, most of them were negative.

The positive results were interesting, though: one with a British Isles surname (Fletcher) brick-walled in the USA, one with ancestry in Ireland, one with ancestry in Scotland, one with ancestry in Belgium, and one with ancestry in the Czech Republic.

But that was it: five positive results out 42 total. That's about 12%.
That's good, I think. Sounds like possibly the fourth largest brother subclade of P312 after L21, U152 and Z196.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: sarkafarka on October 05, 2011, 12:07:44 AM
We got a bunch of DF19 results in the R-P312 and Subclades Project this evening. By far, most of them were negative.

The positive results were interesting, though: one with a British Isles surname (Fletcher) brick-walled in the USA, one with ancestry in Ireland, one with ancestry in Scotland, one with ancestry in Belgium, and one with ancestry in the Czech Republic.

But that was it: five positive results out 42 total. That's about 12%.

Hopefully, I understand well that rms2 is managing the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Assuming I am right, I have one question. Why is the Marwede's DF19+ result ( the E4870 kit) not added to Pab R-DF19 group? Is there any specific reason?


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on October 05, 2011, 07:31:20 PM
We got a bunch of DF19 results in the R-P312 and Subclades Project this evening. By far, most of them were negative.

The positive results were interesting, though: one with a British Isles surname (Fletcher) brick-walled in the USA, one with ancestry in Ireland, one with ancestry in Scotland, one with ancestry in Belgium, and one with ancestry in the Czech Republic.

But that was it: five positive results out 42 total. That's about 12%.

Hopefully, I understand well that rms2 is managing the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Assuming I am right, I have one question. Why is the Marwede's DF19+ result ( the E4870 kit) not added to Pab R-DF19 group? Is there any specific reason?

I'll look at it, but I don't recall that one coming up on the "Received Lab Results" page. Since DF19 is not yet on the YCC Tree, a member's haplogroup designator doesn't change when he gets a DF19+ result. The only way I know he is DF19+ is to see a notification on the "Received Lab Results" page and then check to see if it's positive. I don't remember seeing that one appear on the page, but maybe I missed it. It's a big project with a lot of results, and it's not the only one I manage.

NOTE: I got it now. Thanks for letting me know. He's been placed in the R-DF19 category.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on October 05, 2011, 08:29:44 PM
Hmmm . . .

Notice the prevalence of 385b=15 among those with a DF19+ result?

I haven't spotted anything else unusual about their haplotypes yet, but I haven't scrutinized them all that closely.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: RCAndrew on October 06, 2011, 02:42:17 PM
We got a bunch of DF19 results in the R-P312 and Subclades Project this evening. By far, most of them were negative.

The positive results were interesting, though: one with a British Isles surname (Fletcher) brick-walled in the USA, one with ancestry in Ireland, one with ancestry in Scotland, one with ancestry in Belgium, and one with ancestry in the Czech Republic.

But that was it: five positive results out 42 total. That's about 12%.

I tested positive for DF19 and should be the one (kit# 55699) with ancestry in Scotland.

Was just on ISOGG's Y-DNA Haplogroup R and its Subclades -2011 webpage and they assigned R1b1a2a1a1b6 as being provisional.  Guess once it is confirmed, then this will become my new haplogroup.

My marker for 385b=15.

Having read through the thread on the possibilities of how this new SNP could have landed in the cited countries, I have to agree with Goldenhind that it was probably introduced into those local populations via a warrior (sailor/soldier) .

Having served in the US Navy for over 24 years, I've known guys that fathered children with the native women of some of the foreign countries that we visited while deployed. 

I'm interested to find out what area the DF19 donor originates and from what time frame.


 


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on October 06, 2011, 07:29:54 PM
DF19 should be interesting once we get more positive results. It's a fascinating mix right now. Too early to pin it down, though.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: sarkafarka on October 06, 2011, 11:41:05 PM
Thanks to rms2 for quick response to my question.

I am DF19+ - kit #196999. I have not stated my surname on the project website - the reason is that my and my father's surname is not a surname of our ancestors due to the adoption. I think it is better, generelly, to state no name instead of a surname, which has no relation to a paternal line. The identity of my grandfather is not clear, although there are some hypoyheses. Assuming one of them is right, my ancestors from paternal male line lived in the area of the present Czech Republic at least from beggining of the 19th century - either in the area of the town Liberec (Reichenberg) or in the area of the towns Jicin and Kopidlno.

I would like to note the Enloe surname project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ourancientenloeancestors/default.aspx
The haplotypes of the members of Enloe family show relatively close matches to my result and therefore these persons could be possibly DF19+. One of them is confirmed R1b1a2a1a1b and most probably is not DF19 tested (I did not take the R1b1a2a1a1b4 result for #166564 into consideration, because this result is related to a different surname and is separated by the coordinator of the project from other results). Some further information about Enloe's can be found, e.g. on the following website: http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/e/n/l/Robert-B-Enloe/index.html


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: verelst on October 07, 2011, 05:40:25 PM
We got a bunch of DF19 results in the R-P312 and Subclades Project this evening. By far, most of them were negative.

The positive results were interesting, though: one with a British Isles surname (Fletcher) brick-walled in the USA, one with ancestry in Ireland, one with ancestry in Scotland, one with ancestry in Belgium, and one with ancestry in the Czech Republic.

But that was it: five positive results out 42 total. That's about 12%.


Maybe now would be a good time to start the discussion on the possible tribal backgrounds of DF19? I’ve had a quick look at the GD between the confirmed DF19+ samples, and I got the impression that this SNP is quite young, which would be really interesting.

I’ve compared the Marwede, Fletcher, White, Andrew, Garrett, 196999, Verelst and Verhelst samples (the latter being related to me, with a MRCA born in 1596 and with a GD of 104/111). Among these 8 samples the greatest GD at 67 markers is only 19 (i.e. a 48/67 match). Although the sample number is still very small, the positives do come from quite different geographical locations. It would suggest that DF19 is probably not older than 2000 years, and my preliminary estimates (with 30 years per generation and about 50 – 60 generations since the MRCA) roughly point at a period between 200 and 400 AD. Unfortunately I've made no distinction here between slow and fast mutating markers.

Given the fact that this SNP appears to be this young, and that it has thusfar been found in northern Germany, in Belgium and in the UK and Ireland, and that a few of the putative positives (= not yet tested for DF19 but with a GD < 16 to nearly all DF19+ samples) are French, I was thinking DF19 might be connected to the Saxons.

Historically there is some controversy about the original location of the Saxon people: most historicians place them in northern Germany, but according to the theory of Albert Delahaye they were originally living in northern France and Flanders. Maybe the truth lies in the middle, as already in the 3rd century the Saxons were reported to operate as pirates along the North Sea coast, and they may already have settled there during that time. Around the year 804 emperor Charlemagne allegedly ended a long episode of warfare against the Saxons by resettling an estimated 10.000 of them in another location, and the question remains whether they were moved from northern Germany to northern France, or from northern France to northern Germany… Whatever the truth may be and whatever the direction of the deportation, this historic event links the people of northern Germany to those of northern France and the Belgian coastline, during the first few centuries after the origin of DF19; as of the early 9th century Saxons were most likely living in both these locations. In addition, there is also a clear link to the British people, as the Saxons are of course known to have populated the British Isles in the 5th century, from wherever they were living at that time, and descendants of the Saxons that lived in northern France and Flanders most likely were also incorporated in the Norman armies that invaded England in the 11th century. For all these reasons I have a feeling that DF19 might be connected to the Saxons, but time and more test results may tell whether this could indeed be the case...

Has anyone else perhaps already done a more thorough GD survey, MRCA estimation or variance study for DF19? Or perhaps a comparison to M153 variance, which was also suggested to be rather young?

Wim.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on October 07, 2011, 06:57:12 PM
The Saxons - "men of the Seax", their characteristic, short, single-edged sword - were a relatively new confederation of Germans whose tribes earlier had other names, at least judging from Tacitus' Germania. I believe the Cherusci was one of the old tribes that went into the Saxon mix.

They didn't originate in northern France, although some of them raided and settled there. I think they came from among the tribes of the North Sea coast between the Ijssel and the Elbe.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: verelst on October 07, 2011, 07:26:23 PM
I believe the Cherusci was one of the old tribes that went into the Saxon mix.

They didn't originate in northern France, although some of them raided and settled there. I think they came from among the tribes of the North Sea coast between the Ijssel and the Elbe.

I agree, that's probably true. I'm simply curious to find out whether DF19 is really as young as it appears to be. Based on the available data I think it may have originated shortly after the individual Germanic tribes had merged to form e.g. the Saxon and Frankish entities, and before the Saxons started settling in Britain and along the French/Belgian coastline... At least this scenario could nicely explain the distribution we're seeing in the first few positive samples, in northern Germany, the UK and Belgium (and probably France), but of course it's too early to say much more than that.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 08, 2011, 10:35:12 AM
The Saxons - "... They didn't originate in northern France, although some of them raided and settled there. I think they came from among the tribes of the North Sea coast between the Ijssel and the Elbe.
What's the earliest record of Saxons raiding northern France?


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on October 08, 2011, 11:28:02 AM
The Saxons - "... They didn't originate in northern France, although some of them raided and settled there. I think they came from among the tribes of the North Sea coast between the Ijssel and the Elbe.
What's the earliest record of Saxons raiding northern France?

I don't know exactly, but it must have been fairly early, probably by the early 4th century at least, because the Romans built a system of shore forts in that period on the Gallic side of the Channel. They seem to have been aimed at preventing Saxon raids. The first raids probably predate those forts.

The Romans patrolled the Channel with a pretty effective fleet, so it wasn't until the turmoil of the 5th century that the Saxons would have been able to raid northern France with anything like a free hand.

Of course, the Romans also built a system of coastal forts in what is now England at about the same time, from Brancaster down the east coast and round the Channel all the way to Portchester.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: verelst on October 08, 2011, 02:10:09 PM
What's the earliest record of Saxons raiding northern France?

The Menapian soldier Carausius was mentioned as a successful naval commander in the Roman fight against Frankish and Saxon pirates along the North Sea coasts (Belgica and Armorica), as early as 285 AD, before he started his own rebellion against Rome:    http://www.dot-domesday.me.uk/empires2.htm

This website also mentions the "Saxon Shore" line of fortresses that dates from the late 3rd century, and that was presumably finished and used by Carausius to fend off a Roman invasion in Britain. It existed on both sides of the Channel.

As for Saxon settlements in France and Flanders, Bayeux was supposedly already a Saxon city immediately after the Romans left the region:

http://www.third-millennium-library.com/MedievalHistory/Fifth_Century/WESTERN-EUROPE_1.html


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on October 08, 2011, 05:55:47 PM
The source I am looking at, Celtic Britain, by Nora Chadwick, says the Saxon Shore forts were built by Carausius and Allectus but originally against attack from the sea by Romans (because Carausius was a usurper). It wasn't until the early 4th century under Constantius that they came to be thought of as primarily directed against the Saxons, but, either way, you're right. They were built earlier than I thought.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on November 16, 2011, 09:07:07 PM
DF19 picked up a Swede this evening: Svensson, kit N11543.

It seems to be mostly continental thus far, at least judging by the R-P312 and Subclades Project.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: GoldenHind on November 18, 2011, 05:43:26 PM
DF19 picked up a Swede this evening: Svensson, kit N11543.

It seems to be mostly continental thus far, at least judging by the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: verelst on November 18, 2011, 07:04:16 PM
Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on November 18, 2011, 10:01:13 PM
Time will tell. I wish we would starting getting some more DF19+ results so we could flesh the picture out a little.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: GoldenHind on November 19, 2011, 12:25:42 AM
Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.

I think it is a more than a little early to start making these sort of connections. I don't think we have a good handle yet on either the age or distribution of DF19.

That being said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was a DF19 element among the Saxons.

Beware though that some people do not like any suggestion of a Germanic element in P312.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on November 19, 2011, 09:13:28 AM
Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.

I think it is a more than a little early to start making these sort of connections. I don't think we have a good handle yet on either the age or distribution of DF19.

That being said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was a DF19 element among the Saxons.

Beware though that some people do not like any suggestion of a Germanic element in P312.

Really?

I haven't encountered that, but, then, I don't frequent dna-forums.

I've seen some objections to the idea that U106 is mostly Germanic, but not to the idea that P312 could be (and no doubt is) a combination of many things.

I know that here in the past Alan and I have both suggested that probably a substantial element of the P312* in Britain is Germanic. As I recall, its numbers seem to be highest in the old A-S areas. DF19 is probably a fair sized part of that.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: GoldenHind on November 19, 2011, 04:51:29 PM
Honestly I'm not surprised that DF19 appears to have a strong continental presence. Keep in mind though that of the three samples in the 1000 Genomes Project in which the SNP was first discovered, at least two were from Great Britain.

DF19 is indeed also found in various British samples. On the continent it seems to be found mostly in Germanic regions. For me everything still points to a correlation with the migrations of the Saxons, who e.g. had ended up in England, Flanders and northern France by 800 AD, plus of course also stayed in their north-German homelands. I'd say northern Germany may well be the place where DF19 originated.

I think it is a more than a little early to start making these sort of connections. I don't think we have a good handle yet on either the age or distribution of DF19.

That being said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was a DF19 element among the Saxons.

Beware though that some people do not like any suggestion of a Germanic element in P312.

Really?

I haven't encountered that, but, then, I don't frequent dna-forums.

I've seen some objections to the idea that U106 is mostly Germanic, but not to the idea that P312 could be (and no doubt is) a combination of many things.

I know that here in the past Alan and I have both suggested that probably a substantial element of the P312* in Britain is Germanic. As I recall, its numbers seem to be highest in the old A-S areas. DF19 is probably a fair sized part of that.

Believe me, they exist. Just look at the Eupedia page by Maciamo, who for years has labeled P312 as Italo-Celtic.

There are a few idiots who even go so far as to insist all of R1b is Celtic.

As for P312* in England, I agree its distribution suggests a substantial part must have arrived with the Germanic incursions. However I suspect some part of it is more likely to be British. Maybe when all of P312's subclades are finally identified, we will get an answer to that question.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: sarkafarka6 on November 20, 2011, 01:10:03 AM

As for P312* in England, I agree its distribution suggests a substantial part must have arrived with the Germanic incursions. However I suspect some part of it is more likely to be British. Maybe when all of P312's subclades are finally identified, we will get an answer to that question.

I am afraid, I do not understant your view. If P312* is of the Germanic (Anglo-Sax)origin then the whole clade is of the Germanic origin and it is not possible that "...some part of it is more likely to be British". Do you think, that some P312 subclades originated in the Great Britain area? But even in such case the assumption of the Germanic origin would be still valid (on the level we are speaking about it here).  Could you spedify you view, please?


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on November 20, 2011, 08:37:45 AM
P312 and U106 predate Germanic languages, Celtic languages, etc., although they may not predate Proto-Indo-European. Thus, depending on where they were in Europe at the time, some P312+ could be Germanic, while the bulk of the rest of it might have been Italo-Celtic. Something similar is true of U106, as well. Most of it was probably Germanic speaking, but some of it could have been in areas where Italo-Celtic was spoken, some of it perhaps in places where Balto-Slavic was spoken.

Different P312+ subclades might be predominantly one thing or another, depending on their distribution. To take a pretty obvious example, L21 has a distribution that makes it plain it has a connection to Celtic speakers.

P312* is a paragroup that is getting whittled down as more and more new P312 SNPs are discovered, but it seems to me it is more common in the south and east of Britain (A-S regions) than it is in the west and north (Celtic regions).


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: sarkafarka6 on November 20, 2011, 09:18:24 AM
P312 and U106 predate Germanic languages, Celtic languages, etc.........
Thank you for reminding of the time scale. As I am a beginner, I am still not familiar with the subject and I do not see, often, mutual relations between facts.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: GoldenHind on November 20, 2011, 07:07:21 PM

As for P312* in England, I agree its distribution suggests a substantial part must have arrived with the Germanic incursions. However I suspect some part of it is more likely to be British. Maybe when all of P312's subclades are finally identified, we will get an answer to that question.

I am afraid, I do not understant your view. If P312* is of the Germanic (Anglo-Sax)origin then the whole clade is of the Germanic origin and it is not possible that "...some part of it is more likely to be British". Do you think, that some P312 subclades originated in the Great Britain area? But even in such case the assumption of the Germanic origin would be still valid (on the level we are speaking about it here).  Could you spedify you view, please?

Though I think Rich's answer above is a good, one, since you directed your question to me, I will try to answer it.

It is generally agreed that the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia and northern Germany in the culture referred to as the Nordic bronze Age.

Though there have been a number of migrations of various Germanic peoples out of Scandinavia, there hasn't been an enormous amount of migration into Scandinavia in modern times. Thus it is reasonable to look at the present composition of Scandinavia in an effort to determine the composition of the original Germanic people.

R1b appears to be about a third to a half of the male population of Scandinavia today, depending on the country. The composition of Scandinavian R1b varies from location to location there, but overall it appears to be roughly half U106 and half P312. There is no reason to believe this represents inward migration since the Bronze Age, though some have attempted to maintain that position.

Since we know that P312 is much older than the division of Europe into Celts and Germanics, it is reasonable to suppose that P312 was involved in the formation of both of those cultures. For instance, we know that the P312 subclade L238 is found almost exclusively in Scandinavia, while other P312 subclades are found in areas that were almost exclusively Celtic.

The only thing we know about P312* is that their subclade has not yet been discovered. Based on their current distribution, it seems probable that they are composed currently of groups which have very different histories and distributions. The strong presence of P312* in coastal Norway suggest that some of these P312*, like L238, are likely of Germanic origin. This is reinforced by the fact that much of the P312* in England is concentrated in areas known to have been heavily settled by Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. But since some P312* in Britain is also found in primarily Celtic areas, and it is highly unlikely that the large amount of P312* in Iberia is of Germanic origin, it is pretty clear that not all of what is currently classified as P312* is Germanic.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: Paul Van Gestel on July 14, 2012, 05:37:36 AM
Hi,
 Today i received the result of the DF19 test.
 It is positive.
 So the full testline is:
 R1b1a2a1a1b
 
P312+ P310+ P25+ L51+ L150+ DF19+
U198- U152- U106- P89.2- P107- M65- M160- M153- M126- L6- L48- L47-
L44- L4- L325- L257- L226- L217- L21- L20- L2- L196- L193- L188- L176.2- L165-
L164- L159.2- L148- L144- L1-

My oldest ancester nown is Andreas Gerardi Andries, who lived in Sint Michielsgestel, Netherlands, and was born there in 1600.
Perhaps this result is helpfull to find the original livingarea of the DF19 tribe,
Paul
 


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: verelst on July 17, 2012, 10:14:54 AM
Hi Paul,

thank you for this message: as far as I know you are the 6th person with documented ancestry on the European continent who tests positive for DF19! The others are from Belgium (2), Germany (1), Czech Republic (1) and Sweden (1). From the British Isles at least another 9 independent families are known to be DF19+.

Based on your 12 STR marker values that I've been able to find online, your sample appears to be quite interesting: it is not closely related to any of the other known DF19+ samples. This indicates that your ancestor may have "branched off" long ago from the other DF19 lineages, perhaps even shortly after the origin of the DF19 mutation.

If you are interested in pursuing this research further, I would definitely recommend you to upgrade to 37, 67 or 111 STR markers, and to consider testing for the two major mutations that have recently been identified below DF19. These mutations are L644 and Z302, and both are now available at FT-DNA. Whatever the results would be, they would certainly provide us with valuable information about the history of the DF19 group!
 
  Best regards,

    Wim Verelst (DF19+ L644+).


Hi,
 Today i received the result of the DF19 test.
 It is positive.
 So the full testline is:
 R1b1a2a1a1b
 
P312+ P310+ P25+ L51+ L150+ DF19+
U198- U152- U106- P89.2- P107- M65- M160- M153- M126- L6- L48- L47-
L44- L4- L325- L257- L226- L217- L21- L20- L2- L196- L193- L188- L176.2- L165-
L164- L159.2- L148- L144- L1-

My oldest ancester nown is Andreas Gerardi Andries, who lived in Sint Michielsgestel, Netherlands, and was born there in 1600.
Perhaps this result is helpfull to find the original livingarea of the DF19 tribe,
Paul
 



Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: freywill on November 07, 2013, 02:05:26 PM
Not sure if anyone is still following this series of notes, but I've just got back my results from the Genographic Project and have R-DF19 as my paternal lineage.  I am not generally active in following developments in this area, although I see that there have been few documented DF-19's, so thought I'd add one more to the mix.  I can trace my family back to Germany (ancestors arrived in the US in 1727 from Weiler, Germany).  Some additional data suggests the family (surname: FREY) originally came from Switzerland near Zurich some time in the 1600's.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: Kentface on December 05, 2013, 09:10:49 AM
I've just registered with this forum to say that my recent Y DNA results showed that my paternal line is positive for DF19. That line, suname Kent, I can trace back to a William in the 17th century and for much of the time since then, the family have been lightermen and watermen on the Thames, as documented in the relevant Guild's records.
I will be interested to see how this story develops


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: satu on January 18, 2014, 08:36:34 PM
I registered especially for this thread. My father got his results back from the Genographic Project 2.0 and it turns out he is R-DF19. My paternal line all come from north of The Netherlands (Groningen, Friesland area) and northern Germany around the Elbe. I'm not sure if this helps anything to find out the possible origin of R-DF19, his first reference group was: Danish and the second reference group: German. I will definitely keep an eye on this thread to learn more.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: verelst on January 20, 2014, 05:46:54 PM
Thank you for announcing your DF19+ result on this forum, I see it’s high time for an update! At this moment we have already identified more than 50 distinct families carrying the DF19 mutation in their Y-chromosome. About 20 of them have ancestors on the European continent, and the rest have their origins in the British Isles. On the continent DF19 has so far been found in Sweden, Finland, Germany, the Czech Republic, Belgium, the Netherlands, France (Normandy),  and even one specific case in Italy (presumably dating back to the time of the Norman kingdom of Sicily, in the 11th and 12th century).

Comparison of the STR profiles of all these samples suggests that the DF19 mutation originated about 2000 – 2500 years ago, most likely in Scandinavia or northern Germany, and as such it would have been present among various Germanic people in the following centuries (including the Saxons, Frisians, Franks), and among their descendants in later times. An important new development is the discovery of subclades below DF19, defined by specific SNPs. Most of these are so new that they are not yet recognised by the Geno2.0 test. At the highest level, just below DF19 in the haplotree, DF88 and Z302 have been identified. Both these mutations appear to be almost as old as DF19 itself, and so far none of the DF19+ samples has been found to be negative for both (i.e. all tested DF19+ men are so far either DF88+ or Z302+). So far five samples have tested positive for Z302, and the rest is DF88+. Below DF88, three other SNPs have so far been found: L644, L719 and L1199. L644 appears to be the biggest of these subclades below DF88, and the L644 mutation probably originated in northern Germany or Denmark, roughly between the 5th and 8th century AD. In the British Isles, L644 appears to be indicative of Norman ancestry (I suspect they were descendants of Danish Vikings who had settled in Normandy in the 10th century, and crossed to England in or after 1066), but we’ll need more samples to further support this hypothesis. L719 has only been found in 3 samples and we have no clues yet about its age or distribution, and L1199 is a mutation that probably arose in the (early) Middle Ages and that is mostly found in Scotland, presumably among descendants of Viking settlers. Many of the identified DF19+ samples are still DF88* (i.e. positive for DF19 and DF88, but negative for L644, L719 and L1199), but hopefully more SNPs will be identified in the near future. No less than 30 DF19+ samples are currently taking the Big-Y test offered by FTDNA (in which the Y-chromosome of specific customers is scanned for SNPs, including previously unknown ones), and the first results will hopefully become available next month.

An overview of the current DF19 haplotree can be found here:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

For all DF19+ men: if you are interested in these developments and would like to contribute to expanding our knowledge, please consider joining the “P312 and Subclades Project” at FTDNA. I am one of the volunteer co-administrators of this project and one of two coordinators of the DF19 subclade. We are trying to gather all DF19+ samples in our project, to be able to have a full overview of the genetic diversity within this subclade. We do our best to properly advise each member on further tests that may be worthwhile in their specific cases, to find out more about their own ancestors and their old connections to other families. Even if you’re not an FTDNA customer yet, you can transfer your Geno2.0 results to an FTDNA account, as explained here:

http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=3#326

Subsequently you can join the “P312 and Subclades Project” here:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/

If you have specific questions, you can also send me a private message on this forum and I’ll do my best to advise you.

     Wim.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: Kim Salisbury on February 20, 2014, 12:13:27 AM
Hello,
I have just got my father's results back from his Genographic 2.0 dna test and his Y-dna haplogroup is R-DF19, so I googled it and came across this site. I have been reading the posts with interest. Unfortunately, I don't think I can help with the origins of this subclade. I have researched my father's patrilineal line back to 1740 in Bedfordshire, England. But there was a family rumour that my grandfather was actually the result of an affair and his father may actually have been of German background. Therefore I don't know if my father's y-dna is British or German. According to the Genographic 2.0 results his first reference population is German and his second is Greek! I was wondering if there is anyone who is also R-DF19 whose first reference population match is, in fact, British (or don't they have that as a reference population?)
Looking forward to reading more.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: rms2 on March 29, 2014, 09:13:27 PM
I am not an expert on DF19, but as I recall thus far it appears to be a North German/Netherlands clade, which may indicate that in England it came over with the Anglo-Saxons.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: randyandrew on June 10, 2014, 09:36:38 AM
Okay, just took a look at my haplogroup @ FTDNA and see that there is a L719 SNP test available under DF19.

Wonder why it wasn't part of the Big Y?

Is it one that we DF19's should participate in?


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: verelst on June 10, 2014, 09:51:44 AM
Okay, just took a look at my haplogroup @ FTDNA and see that there is a L719 SNP test available under DF19.

Wonder why it wasn't part of the Big Y?

Is it one that we DF19's should participate in?

Hi Randy,

no need for you to take the L719 test, it was tested in Big-Y and you are definitely negative for it! The L719 subclade branched off from the rest before the origin of L644, and you belong to the L644 subclade. All L644+ samples are thus negative for L719. I have really no idea why L719 is now suddenly listed in the FTDNA haplotree below DF19, but none of the other previously known subclades...

Later this week you and all other Big-Y testers within our DF19 group will receive a detailed report from me by e-mail, in which the new developments and Big-Y results will all be explained. This report will also include the new haplotree below DF19, which I managed to compile based on the many Big-Y test results in our group.

   Best regards,

      Wim.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: randyandrew on June 11, 2014, 02:08:49 PM
Wim,

Thanks! Look forward to your email.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: randyandrew on June 17, 2014, 02:46:27 PM
Wim,

Got the email this weekend and want to thank you for taking the time and providing us with detailed information regarding our subclade!!!

Although I'm still conducting the traditional research in tracing my American ancestor back to Scotland, to find out that genetically I connect to a male ancestor that lived around 300 BC in the Denmark/Northern Germany region is just plain phenomenal. 

Best regards!

Randy


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: Bjorn Lamborn on October 05, 2014, 04:25:06 PM
yseq has A578 listed as R1bia2a1a2e1 which is also the notation for DF88. Are they equivalent?


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: seferhabahir on October 09, 2014, 11:50:58 AM
yseq has A578 listed as R1b1a2a1a2e1 which is also the notation for DF88. Are they equivalent?

No. YSEQ lists A578 as being somewhere below DF88.  R1b1a2a1a2e1 is the ISOGG haplogroup where these SNPs are found.

A578 is
ChrY:21,364,239..21,364,239

DF88 (also known as S4298) is
ChrY:17,508,792..17,508,792


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: verelst on October 11, 2014, 05:11:58 AM
yseq has A578 listed as R1bia2a1a2e1 which is also the notation for DF88. Are they equivalent?

Hi Bjorn,

A578 is below DF88, and indeed at position 21,364,239. A578 is a mutation that is specifically found in (and that defines) one of the branches of the Grant family from Scotland. If I'm not mistaken your sample tested negative for it in Big-Y, but Geoff Grant can probably give you more information about this.


Title: Re: DF19: a new SNP under P312
Post by: gigrant74 on October 12, 2014, 10:44:50 AM
A578 is found only in the descendants of John Grant, 1st of Corriemony, making it approx 500 years old.  It is testable via YSEQ.

Geoff Grant