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Title: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on June 07, 2011, 05:45:40 PM
Though it has been mentioned on the forum, I think the discovery of this new SNP under P312 is worthy of further discussion. Personally I suspect it may have a large effect on the understanding of P312 and its history.

Z196 is a newly discovered SNP below P312. It is above L176.2, which in turn is father to both SRY2627 and L165/M68. It also includes, on a separate branch, the large north/south cluster discovered by Ken Nordtvedt, and somewhere below that cluster, M153, the so-called "Basque" subclade, which appears to be the very youngest branch of Z196.

What I find interesting about Z196, aside from what appears to be a very large size, is that it has both northern and southern European components. L176.2* appears to be primarily northern European, though it has been found in Spain. SRY2627 appears to be primarily southern, though it is found in Britain and Scandinavia. L165/M68 has only been found in Britain and Scandinavia, and was considered Germanic by the pundits until its position under P312 was discovered, when that description had to be removed, as everyone knows P312 is exclusively Celtic (aside of course from L238, which is best ignored so as to not upset perceived wisdom). Nor does Z196 appear to be exclusively Atlantic- one of the first Z196 identified is from Poland. So far nearly everyone in whom it has been found is in the north/south cluster, although there is at least one who isn't. As L176.2 and its subclades do not have the distinctive STR signature found in the north/south cluster, it seems virtually certain that that cluster is only a portion of Z196(XL176), and a much younger one to boot.

It appears to me there are only three possibilities for Z196. It represents a people which started in the north and migrated southwards, the exact opposite, or it started in central location and split into northerly and southerly directions. When sufficient numbers have been identified, it will be very interesting to see what its variance has to say about its age. Then of course people can start to try to connect it with some archaeological culture. But I think those who like to identify P312 subclades with specific Iron Age cultures or even tribes are going to have a real challenge with this one.



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 07, 2011, 06:14:45 PM
I think Z196 is about the most exciting thing happening in p312 at the moment. It will be very interesting to see the distribution and variance of Z196*. If I had to guess I would reckon it was central European but spread in all directions from there.  Regardless, it hopefully can tell us something about the origin of S116.  It will be interesting to see the distribution and variance of S116* and Z196* once these levels of higher resolution have been attained. 


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 07, 2011, 06:32:41 PM
Things could change, but so far it looks like all the Z196* guys belong to the N-S Cluster.

The one guy who is currently Z196+ (and negative for all the downstream stuff except 176.2) but not in the N-S Cluster has not yet been tested for L176.2.

I'm guessing that if he does get tested for L176.2, he will be L176.2+, but I could be wrong.

It is an interesting development. I just knew (and I'm sure all of you did, too) the N-S Cluster had to have at least one new SNP in there somewhere.

Neat how it turned out to be kind of a game changer with regard to P312.



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 07, 2011, 06:51:07 PM
. . .

The one guy who is currently Z196+ (and negative for all the downstream stuff except 176.2) but not in the N-S Cluster has not yet been tested for L176.2.

. . .



Oh, he hasn't been tested for L165 either, but I doubt he'll be positive for that one.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 07, 2011, 07:12:00 PM
I think Z196 is about the most exciting thing happening in p312 at the moment. It will be very interesting to see the distribution and variance of Z196*. If I had to guess I would reckon it was central European but spread in all directions from there.  Regardless, it hopefully can tell us something about the origin of S116.  It will be interesting to see the distribution and variance of S116* and Z196* once these levels of higher resolution have been attained.  
There is a danger that too many P312* guys will get discouraged and assume that since if they are not in the NS cluster and not L176.2+ (L165 & SRY2627) that it is useless to test. I don't see how a best guess modal for Z196 won't be WAMH.. which means almost anyone in P312* could be Z196.

I've got the P312 people cataloged geographically so I'm just hoping for a continued rush of Z196 orders to let the numbers settle out.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 07, 2011, 08:21:33 PM
. . .

The one guy who is currently Z196+ (and negative for all the downstream stuff except 176.2) but not in the N-S Cluster has not yet been tested for L176.2.

. . .



Oh, he hasn't been tested for L165 either, but I doubt he'll be positive for that one.

I just heard from this individual, and it turns out he has already tested L176.2- and L165- via the WTY. For some reason those WTY results don't appear on his Haplotree page.

Anyway, he's been moved to the right category now.

He is NOT in the N-S Cluster, and he is R-Z196*.

Interesting!

(He does kind of hang on the outskirts of the N-S Cluster though, with 448=18, but he has 437=16 and H4=11.)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on June 07, 2011, 09:49:39 PM
Things could change, but so far it looks like all the Z196* guys belong to the N-S Cluster.

The one guy who is currently Z196+ (and negative for all the downstream stuff except 176.2) but not in the N-S Cluster has not yet been tested for L176.2.

I'm guessing that if he does get tested for L176.2, he will be L176.2+, but I could be wrong.

It is an interesting development. I just knew (and I'm sure all of you did, too) the N-S Cluster had to have at least one new SNP in there somewhere.

Neat how it turned out to be kind of a game changer with regard to P312.



I think it is highly unlikely that Z196 will be restricted to the north/south cluster, as neither L176.2 nor SRY2627 have the distinctive markers of the the n/s cluster. I doubt that signature would have changed with one branch of the family, while remaining with the other. All the descendants should be subject to the same random mutation rates.

It is believed that there are about seven stages of SNPs below Z196(XL176.2), and the current guessing game is which of those stages defines the n/s cluster.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jean M on June 08, 2011, 04:10:26 AM
I think Z196 is about the most exciting thing happening in p312 at the moment. It will be very interesting to see the distribution and variance of Z196*. If I had to guess I would reckon it was central European but spread in all directions from there. 

I am tentatively pointing to Urnfield at the moment. See http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ironage.shtml


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 08, 2011, 06:44:02 PM
Things could change, but so far it looks like all the Z196* guys belong to the N-S Cluster.

The one guy who is currently Z196+ (and negative for all the downstream stuff except 176.2) but not in the N-S Cluster has not yet been tested for L176.2.

I'm guessing that if he does get tested for L176.2, he will be L176.2+, but I could be wrong.

It is an interesting development. I just knew (and I'm sure all of you did, too) the N-S Cluster had to have at least one new SNP in there somewhere.

Neat how it turned out to be kind of a game changer with regard to P312.



I think it is highly unlikely that Z196 will be restricted to the north/south cluster, as neither L176.2 nor SRY2627 have the distinctive markers of the the n/s cluster. I doubt that signature would have changed with one branch of the family, while remaining with the other. All the descendants should be subject to the same random mutation rates.

It is believed that there are about seven stages of SNPs below Z196(XL176.2), and the current guessing game is which of those stages defines the n/s cluster.

I don't think I said it is restricted to the N-S Cluster. Obviously it's not, since everyone who is L176.2+ is also Z196+.

What I said was that I knew the N-S Cluster had some new SNP connected to it. It probably has another one downstream of Z196, as well.

I also said that thus far (at the time I was looking and wrote that post) all the Z196* guys are in the N-S Cluster. That was true at the time, but it is no longer true, although the one exception is on the fringe of that cluster.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on June 08, 2011, 08:53:15 PM
I think Z196 is about the most exciting thing happening in p312 at the moment. It will be very interesting to see the distribution and variance of Z196*. If I had to guess I would reckon it was central European but spread in all directions from there. 

I am tentatively pointing to Urnfield at the moment. See http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ironage.shtml

Interesting. Urnfield appears to have the requistive northern and southern spread, especially if one includes northern Urnfield, which I gather extended to the North Sea, and later expanded east to the Baltic and northwest into the Isles. The only thing missing is Scandinavia, where the north/south cluster has a not insiginicant presence.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on June 08, 2011, 09:57:38 PM
Things could change, but so far it looks like all the Z196* guys belong to the N-S Cluster.

The one guy who is currently Z196+ (and negative for all the downstream stuff except 176.2) but not in the N-S Cluster has not yet been tested for L176.2.

I'm guessing that if he does get tested for L176.2, he will be L176.2+, but I could be wrong.

It is an interesting development. I just knew (and I'm sure all of you did, too) the N-S Cluster had to have at least one new SNP in there somewhere.

Neat how it turned out to be kind of a game changer with regard to P312.



I think it is highly unlikely that Z196 will be restricted to the north/south cluster, as neither L176.2 nor SRY2627 have the distinctive markers of the the n/s cluster. I doubt that signature would have changed with one branch of the family, while remaining with the other. All the descendants should be subject to the same random mutation rates.

It is believed that there are about seven stages of SNPs below Z196(XL176.2), and the current guessing game is which of those stages defines the n/s cluster.

I don't think I said it is restricted to the N-S Cluster. Obviously it's not, since everyone who is L176.2+ is also Z196+.

What I said was that I knew the N-S Cluster had some new SNP connected to it. It probably has another one downstream of Z196, as well.

I also said that thus far (at the time I was looking and wrote that post) all the Z196* guys are in the N-S Cluster. That was true at the time, but it is no longer true, although the one exception is on the fringe of that cluster.

It sounded to me as if you were suggesting that Z196 individuals who were not in the north/south cluster were likely to be L176.2. For the reasons I stated, I don't think that is likely to be the case. However there have only been a handful of Z196+ people identified to date, with a large backlog of orders to be processed, so it is a little early to be too confident about what the results will show one way or another. Based one an examination of the 1000 Genomes project, the person who first identified it there said that he thought Z196 might include about 60% of what is currently P312*. He has also identified several steps of SNPs below Z196, which are not connected to L176.2, and it looks to me like the N/S cluster will be defined by one of these. But only time will tell.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 09, 2011, 08:03:28 PM
Things could change, but so far it looks like all the Z196* guys belong to the N-S Cluster.

The one guy who is currently Z196+ (and negative for all the downstream stuff except 176.2) but not in the N-S Cluster has not yet been tested for L176.2.

I'm guessing that if he does get tested for L176.2, he will be L176.2+, but I could be wrong.

It is an interesting development. I just knew (and I'm sure all of you did, too) the N-S Cluster had to have at least one new SNP in there somewhere.

Neat how it turned out to be kind of a game changer with regard to P312.



I think it is highly unlikely that Z196 will be restricted to the north/south cluster, as neither L176.2 nor SRY2627 have the distinctive markers of the the n/s cluster. I doubt that signature would have changed with one branch of the family, while remaining with the other. All the descendants should be subject to the same random mutation rates.

It is believed that there are about seven stages of SNPs below Z196(XL176.2), and the current guessing game is which of those stages defines the n/s cluster.

I don't think I said it is restricted to the N-S Cluster. Obviously it's not, since everyone who is L176.2+ is also Z196+.

What I said was that I knew the N-S Cluster had some new SNP connected to it. It probably has another one downstream of Z196, as well.

I also said that thus far (at the time I was looking and wrote that post) all the Z196* guys are in the N-S Cluster. That was true at the time, but it is no longer true, although the one exception is on the fringe of that cluster.

It sounded to me as if you were suggesting that Z196 individuals who were not in the north/south cluster were likely to be L176.2. For the reasons I stated, I don't think that is likely to be the case. However there have only been a handful of Z196+ people identified to date, with a large backlog of orders to be processed, so it is a little early to be too confident about what the results will show one way or another. Based one an examination of the 1000 Genomes project, the person who first identified it there said that he thought Z196 might include about 60% of what is currently P312*. He has also identified several steps of SNPs below Z196, which are not connected to L176.2, and it looks to me like the N/S cluster will be defined by one of these. But only time will tell.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was only talking about the one individual, not everyone else, as well.

I don't know how Z196 will turn out. We have had some negative results, as well as a few positives. 60% seems a trifle high to me, but who knows?

Time will tell.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 10, 2011, 07:24:47 PM
We got a bunch of Z196 results today, many of them negative, but quite a few positives, too.

This evening all the positives, except for a couple of guys who were already tested L176.2+, were members of the N-S Cluster.

One M153+ guy tested Z196+, too, but we already knew he would (and M153 is L176.2-, too).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 10, 2011, 08:08:21 PM
We got a bunch of Z196 results today, many of them negative, but quite a few positives, too.

This evening all the positives, except for a couple of guys who were already tested L176.2+, were members of the N-S Cluster.

Okay, an exception just came: one guy who is Z196+ but not in the N-S Cluster.

But he has not been tested for L176.2 yet.

(I am not meaning that to say anything about Z196 results as a whole.)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 11, 2011, 12:35:56 AM
We got a bunch of Z196 results today, many of them negative, but quite a few positives, too.

This evening all the positives, except for a couple of guys who were already tested L176.2+ (one who is M153+), were members of the N-S Cluster.

Okay, an exception just came: one guy who is Z196+ but not in the N-S Cluster.

But he has not been tested for L176.2 yet.

(I am not meaning that to say anything about Z196 results as a whole.)

If you compare the off-WAMH markers for NS with L176.2 you won't find a lot in common. I'd say chances are good the ancestral haplotype for Z196 is close to WAMH.  If so, almost any P312+ U152- L21- L238- guy could be Z196.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on June 11, 2011, 06:41:57 AM
We got a bunch of Z196 results today, many of them negative, but quite a few positives, too.

This evening all the positives, except for a couple of guys who were already tested L176.2+ (one who is M153+), were members of the N-S Cluster.

Okay, an exception just came: one guy who is Z196+ but not in the N-S Cluster.

But he has not been tested for L176.2 yet.

(I am not meaning that to say anything about Z196 results as a whole.)

If you compare the off-WAMH markers for NS with L176.2 you won't find a lot in common. I'd say chances are good the ancestral haplotype for Z196 is close to WAMH.  If so, almost any P312+ U152- L21- L238- guy could be Z196.

I count 26+ and 27- for P312* people in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Hopefully testing for Z196 won't tail of for non NS folks, this one looks set to split P312* clean in two.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 11, 2011, 07:14:37 AM


If you compare the off-WAMH markers for NS with L176.2 you won't find a lot in common. I'd say chances are good the ancestral haplotype for Z196 is close to WAMH.  If so, almost any P312+ U152- L21- L238- guy could be Z196.

Could be, but so far all the Z196+ L176.2- results but one have been from guys who are in the N-S cluster. And that one exception has 448=18.

I haven't been keeping careful track, but the negatives all seem to have 437=15, 448=19, and H4=11 (or nearly so).

When you get to the L176.2+ guys (who are, of course, all Z196+), then you get beyond the N-S Cluster values. Maybe L176.2 is older than whatever SNP it is downstream of Z196 that characterizes the N-S Cluster. Perhaps the N-S Cluster and M153 both sit on the same branch of Z196.

Things could change, of course.

I have no horse in this race. I'm just reporting what I see thus far.



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 11, 2011, 01:34:07 PM
It will be nice when the YCC updates its tree again! (Actually, I mean that.)

Then all the guys who are positive for all the new SNPs will get shiny new designators and become easier to spot.

From my point of view, another boon from YCC updates is that FTDNA goes in and updates Ysearch, and all sorts of new R-L21 guys appear who were invisible before.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 11, 2011, 10:12:49 PM
We got another one who is Z196* but NOT in the N-S Cluster. He has 437=15, 448=17, H4=11.

That's the second Z196* who is not in the N-S Cluster, but by far most of the non N-S Cluster Z196 results we're getting back are negative.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 12, 2011, 06:05:53 AM
We got another one who is Z196* but NOT in the N-S Cluster. He has 437=15, 448=17, H4=11.

That's the second Z196* who is not in the N-S Cluster, but by far most of the non N-S Cluster Z196 results we're getting back are negative.


Looks like Z196 spawned two main lines - L176.2 and N-S and that Z196 (Z196*) so far is otherwise fairly rare.  Kind of reminds me of the way S116 and U106 are very common but L11* is rare.  There is clearly a lot of subtle phasing and patterning in the spread and expansion of S116.  The lack of L11*, Z196* etc seems to suggest to me that only a few lines prospered and many did not and the main survivors in the form of L178.2 and the N-S cluster are due to success that started some centuries later when the L176.2 SNP and the N-S STR pattern had happened.  Certainly variance suggests that both of the latter were  old but not as old as Z196.  We already know L11* is not common and I think we are slowly heading to the possibility that S116* is not common.  If we add to that that Z196* is not common and even the possibility that L176.2* is not common then Even a lot of U152's expansion seems to have been in the form of the younger L2 clade.  I wonder if we have been wrong to see the L11-S116/U106-L21/U152 burst as so crucial.  The more the phylogeny is refined, the less * guys there are and the more it looks to me that the big burst was slightly later, perhaps in the period represented by L2. L21, N-S, SRY 2627 etc.  I cant help but also think that that suggests there could be an SNP between L21 and S116.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on June 12, 2011, 06:54:44 AM
I cant help but also think that that suggests there could be an SNP between L21 and S116.

According to the guys rifling through the 1000 Genomes project there are now four SNPs that they have yet to find negative in L21+ or positive in P312*.

L21 Structure (http://www.box.net/shared/qljxuisx9a)

L459, Z245, Z260 & Z290

Of these only L459 has had limited testing under L21 and a smattering for P312*, which so far has yet to produce the coveted L21+,L459- or P312+,L459+,L21-.

Presumably somewhere in this lot we are going to find a new structure for the relationship between P312 and L21, and possibly evidence of a bottleneck?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 12, 2011, 12:24:11 PM
I cant help but also think that that suggests there could be an SNP between L21 and S116.

According to the guys rifling through the 1000 Genomes project there are now four SNPs that they have yet to find negative in L21+ or positive in P312*.

L21 Structure (http://www.box.net/shared/qljxuisx9a)

L459, Z245, Z260 & Z290

Of these only L459 has had limited testing under L21 and a smattering for P312*, which so far has yet to produce the coveted L21+,L459- or P312+,L459+,L21-.

Presumably somewhere in this lot we are going to find a new structure for the relationship between P312 and L21, and possibly evidence of a bottleneck?


Interesting.  Thanks for that.  I had vaguely heard of this but had half forgotten.  The lack of SNPs below L21 is less surprising as L21 seems to date to the end of the period of the first burst of SNPs judging by variance and s therefore in line with the rest of S116 on that score.  However, the lack of SNPs between S116 and L21 does seems to be different  and indicates an SNP-gap in comparison to the U152 lines and the Z196 lines.

By the way, am I right in saying that Z196 has divided S116/P312 into three i.e. all S116 people are descended from three men - Mr L21, Mr U152 and Mr Z196?       


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on June 12, 2011, 01:49:20 PM
By the way, am I right in saying that Z196 has divided S116/P312 into three i.e. all S116 people are descended from three men - Mr L21, Mr U152 and Mr Z196?       

No Z196 appears to be cleaving S116/P312* in half, much like L21 did before, however most of the Z196+ for S116/P312* individuals (but not all) are NS folks. There are bunch of SNPs identified in the 1000 Genome project downstream of Z196 which it is thought will help further define NS

P312 Structure (http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 12, 2011, 05:15:14 PM
By the way, am I right in saying that Z196 has divided S116/P312 into three i.e. all S116 people are descended from three men - Mr L21, Mr U152 and Mr Z196?       

No Z196 appears to be cleaving S116/P312* in half, much like L21 did before, however most of the Z196+ for S116/P312* individuals (but not all) are NS folks. There are bunch of SNPs identified in the 1000 Genome project downstream of Z196 which it is thought will help further define NS

P312 Structure (http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png)


I will be very interested in what is left of S116*.  Is there a list of negatives and is their any geographical pattern too them?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 12, 2011, 06:53:25 PM
I haven't been keeping track of the negatives, but there have been a bunch of them: almost everyone who has tested and isn't in the N-S Cluster.

As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

Regarding the lack of true asterisk men, as in L11*, etc., I don't think anyone should be surprised at that. After all, we are dealing with modern men. Does it seem likely that there would be a true L11* man anywhere, one whose y-dna ancestors haven't experienced a single SNP fork in the road since the first L11+ man?

The asterisk thing isn't important. What's important is tracking where the clades common to each geographic region took the turn down their particular branch of the R1b tree.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on June 12, 2011, 07:03:26 PM
As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

That's a set of data that's just begging for an interclade variance calculation, anybody done that yet?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 12, 2011, 07:05:13 PM
As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

That's a set of data that's just begging for an interclade variance calculation, anybody done that yet?

Not that I am aware of.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on June 12, 2011, 08:06:58 PM
As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

That's a set of data that's just begging for an interclade variance calculation, anybody done that yet?

Not that I am aware of.

Well I don't have a driving licence for this software but I popped the Qa. R-Z196 (L176.2-) from the R-P312 project into Ken Nordtvedt's spreadsheet and compared them against Qc. R-M167 (SRY2627).

Results 178 generations +/- 25 generation


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 12, 2011, 08:09:17 PM
As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

That's a set of data that's just begging for an interclade variance calculation, anybody done that yet?

Not that I am aware of.

Well I don't have a driving licence for this software but I popped the Qa. R-Z196 (L176.2-) from the R-P312 project into Ken Nordtvedt's spreadsheet and compared them against Qc. R-M167 (SRY2627).

Results 178 generations +/- 25 generation

What does he use for a generation, 25 years?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on June 12, 2011, 08:14:57 PM
As you said, it looks like Z196 is mostly limited to the N-S Cluster, the M153+ guys, and the L176.2+ guys, with very few exceptions.

That's a set of data that's just begging for an interclade variance calculation, anybody done that yet?

Not that I am aware of.

Well I don't have a driving licence for this software but I popped the Qa. R-Z196 (L176.2-) from the R-P312 project into Ken Nordtvedt's spreadsheet and compared them against Qc. R-M167 (SRY2627).

Results 178 generations +/- 25 generation

What does he use for a generation, 25 years?

I don't know if Ken gets draw into that argument, personally I favour 30 but either way that's old.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on June 14, 2011, 04:14:23 PM
By the way, am I right in saying that Z196 has divided S116/P312 into three i.e. all S116 people are descended from three men - Mr L21, Mr U152 and Mr Z196?       

No Z196 appears to be cleaving S116/P312* in half, much like L21 did before, however most of the Z196+ for S116/P312* individuals (but not all) are NS folks. There are bunch of SNPs identified in the 1000 Genome project downstream of Z196 which it is thought will help further define NS

P312 Structure (http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png)


You are both forgetting Mr. L238.  There are also two other newly identified SNPs below P312 which I believe remain untested: DF19, which apparently is primarily northwestern, and Z225, which is primarily Iberian. This is according to the same individuals who identified Z196.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on June 14, 2011, 06:18:41 PM
You are both forgetting Mr. L238.  There are also two other newly identified SNPs below P312 which I believe remain untested: DF19, which apparently is primarily northwestern, and Z225, which is primarily Iberian. This is according to the same individuals who identified Z196.

Yep, I wonder when FTDNA are going to get round to them. It's almost hard work just trying to keep track of all these new SNPs !!


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on June 15, 2011, 07:28:15 PM
You are both forgetting Mr. L238.  There are also two other newly identified SNPs below P312 which I believe remain untested: DF19, which apparently is primarily northwestern, and Z225, which is primarily Iberian. This is according to the same individuals who identified Z196.

Yep, I wonder when FTDNA are going to get round to them. It's almost hard work just trying to keep track of all these new SNPs !!


FTDNA is now testing for DF19.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 16, 2011, 05:16:53 PM
....  DF19, which apparently is primarily northwestern, ... FTDNA is now testing for DF19.
How many people in the 1000 Human Genome project was DF19+ found in?  Where are they from?   I assume those people were Z196- L21- U152-.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on June 21, 2011, 03:06:55 PM
....  DF19, which apparently is primarily northwestern, ... FTDNA is now testing for DF19.
How many people in the 1000 Human Genome project was DF19+ found in?  Where are they from?   I assume those people were Z196- L21- U152-.

Three, and yes, they are negative for all other known SNPs below P312. Two were from the GBR database, which apparently means England and Scotland, and one was from the CEU database, which I have just learned is Utah residents of northern and western European ancestry.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on July 03, 2011, 08:30:03 PM
Rich,

Do you have a rough estimate what percentage of previous P312* individuals in the project are members of the north/south cluster? Presumably they all (plus some others) will turn out to be Z196.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on July 04, 2011, 08:48:10 AM
Rich,

Do you have a rough estimate what percentage of previous P312* individuals in the project are members of the north/south cluster? Presumably they all (plus some others) will turn out to be Z196.

No, but there are quite a few of them. I have thought about just putting them all in one of the Z196 categories, but I would prefer they test for it.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on July 04, 2011, 02:44:25 PM
Rich,

Do you have a rough estimate what percentage of previous P312* individuals in the project are members of the north/south cluster? Presumably they all (plus some others) will turn out to be Z196.

No, but there are quite a few of them. I have thought about just putting them all in one of the Z196 categories, but I would prefer they test for it.

I suppose you could put the Z196 confirmed in one category, and the Z196 predicted (unconfirmed) in another, but that might be a bit messy.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on July 05, 2011, 08:45:11 AM
Rich,

Do you have a rough estimate what percentage of previous P312* individuals in the project are members of the north/south cluster? Presumably they all (plus some others) will turn out to be Z196.

No, but there are quite a few of them. I have thought about just putting them all in one of the Z196 categories, but I would prefer they test for it.

I suppose you could put the Z196 confirmed in one category, and the Z196 predicted (unconfirmed) in another, but that might be a bit messy.

Yeah. I think I'll leave it as it is for now.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on July 05, 2011, 09:19:40 PM
Rich,

Do you have a rough estimate what percentage of previous P312* individuals in the project are members of the north/south cluster? Presumably they all (plus some others) will turn out to be Z196.

I had a look at the P312* project map, where the N/S cluster members are easily identified by a black dot, and focused on Scandinavia. The maps shows 19 P312* from Scandinavia (excluding Finland), and only four of them had the N/S dot. I found it interesting that 3 were clustered very closely in the far south, but the fourth was far to the north of Norway. There were also 3 P312* from Finland, whom I suspect might originally have come from Sweden, and one of them was N/S.

I don't suggest this will hold for all of Europe, but something in the order of 20-25% is probably a rough estimate for the percentage of former P312* who are members of the N/S cluster.  


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 30, 2011, 04:10:08 PM
Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.   


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on July 30, 2011, 04:56:54 PM
Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.  

I haven't been meticulously counting and keeping data on this, but it seems to me the Z196+ guys are either L176.2+ (including its subclades), M153+, or, if not, almost exclusively members of the R1b North-South Cluster. There are a couple of R-Z196* guys who are outside the R1b N-S, but as I recall they skirt its fringes.

Still it seems a substantial branch. It is regularly grabbing guys from the R-P312* geographic categories and whittling those down.

If you recall, I mentioned this kind of thing before when we were talking about that study of French R1b1a2 out of the University of Santiago de Compostela in Spain. That study showed the greatest amount of French R1b1a2 was something other than U152 or U106, which we supposed was split between R-P312* and R-L21. I commented that, in time, the R-P312* would break down into various different, smaller subclades, leaving R-L21 as perhaps the single biggest French subclade, or perhaps a close second to U152.

I think we're starting to see that whittling away of R-P312*.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 30, 2011, 08:17:45 PM
Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.  

I haven't been meticulously counting and keeping data on this, but it seems to me the Z196+ guys are either L176.2+ (including its subclades), M153+, or, if not, almost exclusively members of the R1b North-South Cluster. There are a couple of R-Z196* guys who are outside the R1b N-S, but as I recall they skirt its fringes.

Still it seems a substantial branch. It is regularly grabbing guys from the R-P312* geographic categories and whittling those down.

If you recall, I mentioned this kind of thing before when we were talking about that study of French R1b1a2 out of the University of Santiago de Compostela in Spain. That study showed the greatest amount of French R1b1a2 was something other than U152 or U106, which we supposed was split between R-P312* and R-L21. I commented that, in time, the R-P312* would break down into various different, smaller subclades, leaving R-L21 as perhaps the single biggest French subclade, or perhaps a close second to U152.

I think we're starting to see that whittling away of R-P312*.

Is there any suggestion of what degree of p312* is losing its * since the Z196, L176.2 etc were discovered.  I imagine there is a lot that has simply not tested yet for the new SNPs. Eventually a pattern might emerge and p312* might be concentrated into a specific area.  It will also be interesting to see if the variance of p312* increases as parts of it are removed by the new SNPs.




Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on July 30, 2011, 09:27:57 PM
Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.  

I haven't been meticulously counting and keeping data on this, but it seems to me the Z196+ guys are either L176.2+ (including its subclades), M153+, or, if not, almost exclusively members of the R1b North-South Cluster. There are a couple of R-Z196* guys who are outside the R1b N-S, but as I recall they skirt its fringes.

Still it seems a substantial branch. It is regularly grabbing guys from the R-P312* geographic categories and whittling those down.

If you recall, I mentioned this kind of thing before when we were talking about that study of French R1b1a2 out of the University of Santiago de Compostela in Spain. That study showed the greatest amount of French R1b1a2 was something other than U152 or U106, which we supposed was split between R-P312* and R-L21. I commented that, in time, the R-P312* would break down into various different, smaller subclades, leaving R-L21 as perhaps the single biggest French subclade, or perhaps a close second to U152.

I think we're starting to see that whittling away of R-P312*.

Is there any suggestion of what degree of p312* is losing its * since the Z196, L176.2 etc were discovered.  I imagine there is a lot that has simply not tested yet for the new SNPs. Eventually a pattern might emerge and p312* might be concentrated into a specific area.  It will also be interesting to see if the variance of p312* increases as parts of it are removed by the new SNPs.




Unfortunately P312* almost certainly does not exist, other than as a term of convenience for those P312 whose subclade has not yet been identified. Some experts are now claiming that an SNP occurs on the Y chromosome about once every generation or two. Even if that turns out to be optimistic and the true number is only once every century or so, I think it is highly unlikely that there is any large group of P312* whose ancestors managed to go for several millenia without an SNP.

At the moment only a very small portion of the Y chromosome is being investigated for SNPs. Yet new SNPs below P312 are coming at a rapid pace. In addition to Z196, which was discovered only a few months ago, we also now have DF 19, which FTDNA has only begun testing. Also L617, found in a WTY for a P312* and originally thought to be private, is beginning to look like it's not private afterall.  Who knows what will turn up in the next few years.

Rich is correct. We're whittling away at P312* and will continue to do so as sequencing the entire Y chromosome progresses and becomes less expensive. I believe at some point in the not too distant future P312*will actually or virtually disappear. 

 


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 31, 2011, 04:54:02 AM
I understand p312* is just a terms of convenience.  However, there must be or must have been among the p312* a lineage that could be called pre-L21 and that can only be hidden among the current p312* that is negative for Z196 and of course U152.  If variance is an indication, there must have been a pre-L21 lineage somewhere during the period when the slightly older U152 and Z196 lines were undergoing their early expansions.   I suppose the only definate way of locating this is if an SNP is found that is only shared between L21 and a subsection of what is currently defined as p312*.     


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on July 31, 2011, 06:58:56 AM
We still have quite a few current P312* guys who are negative for Z196 (and thus everything downstream of it) and are holding out for whatever new discoveries are coming down the pike. But I think Goldenhind is right, and eventually P312* will mostly disappear.

The problem with the newer SNPs is that they encompass smaller and smaller groups, it seems to me. That makes testing for and finding the right one a potentially expensive proposition. We have guys in the R-P312 and Subclades and R-L21 Plus projects who test for every new SNP that comes along. I don't know how they can afford it, especially after drawing negative result after negative result.

I myself am in a quandary over which L21+ SNPs to test for. My dna testing budget is limited. I know negative results are informative, but, on a practical level, as someone who works for a living, they strike me as missing the target and a waste of money. Man, I hate parting with my hard-earned money for a minus sign!


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: A.D. on July 31, 2011, 04:52:49 PM
Is there a new (updated) Phylogenetic tree  chart. The 1 on FTDNA) the last one I got is 2009/10. I know I should not need to keep referring to it  but I do.   


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on July 31, 2011, 05:52:06 PM
Is there a new (updated) Phylogenetic tree  chart. The 1 on FTDNA) the last one I got is 2009/10. I know I should not need to keep referring to it  but I do.   

There was an update a few months ago, but it doesn't include some of the latest stuff, like Z196, L238, etc.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on January 04, 2012, 05:18:03 PM
Last September, I did a sort of online version of an essay bibliography of the various threads and discussions of Z196, including this one.  (At the time, I wasn't registered to post here.)  Anyway, the most open-access place to catch up on Z196 developments more recent than July 2011 would be the Eupedia version of that.  There is perhaps a bit more to see on DNA-Forums -- but people who don't or can't register there won't see it, at least in English.  I've updated the Eupedia Z196 thread a few times, including today:

http://tinyurl.com/7ojo7mh

I frankly don't expect a lot of activity until FTDNA gets around to offering SNP tests for Z274, Z294, Z209 and Z214 -- and perhaps a few more, one puzzling possibility being an even newer discovery, DF27.  Anyway, some of us who used to be P312* are now Z196*, or Z196**.  Although we continue champing at the bit, it's a different bit than last spring's.  And a few people, most notably MikeWww, are including Z196 in their variance based TMRCA calculations.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 05, 2012, 10:16:19 AM
Razyn, DYS437=14 and DYS448=18 are found not only in these R1b-NS. They may have converged also in other haplogroups, by chance, and they need other values. For instance these values are found also in some R1b1* (see ySearch: PXBSS and ZQW5V), but also in ySearch AM2QA, Post. The surname is probably in origin Pfost, and seems of German descent. I’d know willingly his haplogroup, ascertained by a SNP test. By his YCAII=22-23 it would seem an R1b1* of Eastern origin.

It seems actually an R1b1* Cluster 4

R1b1* (L389+) Cluster A4
N60050 Flinchbaugh Anthoni Flinspach, Großgartach, Württemberg, 1516 Germany R1b1
13 24 15 10 12-13 12 13 12 14 12 30 14 9-9 10 11 25 14 18 29 14-15-15-17 10 10 22-23 16 18 19 17 37-38 13 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 20 14 11 11 13 12 11 14 12                                                                                         
104725 Hefner Melchoir Hefner d 1810 Lincoln Co NC m Catherine B Germany R1b1
13 24 15 10 12-13 12 13 12 14 12 30 14 9-9 10 11 26 14 18 29 14-15-15-17 10 12 22-23 16 16 18 16 38-38 13 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 20 13 11 11 13 12 11 14 12

And see also ySearch PXBSS (Anonymous Iranian) I put on ySearch from SMGF. But probably this should be for another thread.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 05, 2012, 11:10:13 AM
Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.  
Of the 751 P312* folks that are untested for Z196, I have 110 that fit into STR signature varieties that have Z196+ folks in them.  43 of the 751 fall into varieties that appear to be DF19+.

So roughly 15% could be Z196+ and 6% DF19+. Both percentages could grow, especially for DF19, since we know less about it.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on January 05, 2012, 11:30:26 AM
Razyn, DYS437=14 and DYS448=18 are found not only in these R1b-NS.

Right, anything's possible, and I know the thread is about the SNP and not about that cluster.  But all members of that cluster who have tested for it have the Z196 SNP -- as do a good many others, who aren't L176.2.  The subset of Z196 that is L176.2 negative is a large clade that still needs a defining SNP to test.  (Most of it is within, or very near, what has long been called the North/South Cluster.)  Z274 seems the best early prospect, then Z294.  Eventually, this conversation won't be theoretical, and we can drop the cluster chat.

And I don't see much point in arguing with the usefulness of one cluster on the basis of another cluster (A4, or whatever).  They are what they are, apparent patterns in the STR count.

I do think the cousins of tested Z196 persons, who share their marker values, might logically be considered members of their haplogroup, as well as their extended family.  They are administratively excluded from the database; but their haplotypes are available, in family YDNA projects and elsewhere.   Ysearch and similar tools don't check for positive SNP test results, but they do turn up some of these cousins.  And they are much more numerous than the (62?) current holders of what amounts to a $29 "Z196 Club" membership badge.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 05, 2012, 11:45:29 AM
Razyn writes: “And I don't see much point in arguing with the usefulness of one cluster on the basis of another cluster (A4, or whatever)”.

Yes, mine were only some reflections about this “Post” I wasn’t able to classify and I remembered these two values (DYS437=14 and DYS448=18) in common with R1b-NS. Working on them I have just found him (Post) like an R1b1* Cluster A4. If we may learn something it is that two values don’t determine a cluster, even though they are slow mutating, but of course this is known by anyone.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on January 09, 2012, 11:21:35 AM
Here is an FTDNA SNP report page that includes a count of the number of Z196 tests completed (currently 263) and the number that were derived, i.e. Z196+ (currently 71):

[Edit Jan. 19th: the url I inserted ten days ago now leads to a different SNP, Z715, and doesn't report the testing totals I cited.  If I can fix it, I shall, but for the moment it is better to disregard the following url.  The remainder of my discussion was accurate, when posted.]

http://tinyurl.com/7b5v68x

Within that report, clicking on the blue numbers will take you to all sorts of genetic detail about the Z196 SNP.  I assume that the number of tested samples will grow, and the count I have mentioned in this post only refers to 9 January 2012.

In my last previous post here I mentioned a figure of 62, the latest count of Z196+ guys I had seen.  Our numbers are growing, if slowly.  It seems that a lot of people have recently tested unsuccessfully for this SNP.  Perhaps the next update of the Deep Clade test will include Z196 -- or at least make it more obvious who needs to order this SNP test, and who doesn't.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 09, 2012, 04:01:44 PM
Is it fair comment that Iberia has a lot of Z196 and subclades?  Is it the hotspot if all subclades etc are included?  I am curious as to what the ancestral/derived for Z196 rate is for Iberian P312* tested for this SNP.  Is there a pattern in terms of those who still remain P312* after testing for Z196?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on January 09, 2012, 05:12:30 PM
I can't really speak about Iberian P312*, but I can say there is no pattern for English samples who remain P312* after testing negative for Z196.

As for Z196 itself, since it has both northern and southern elements, I am inclined to believe it was born somewhere in central Europe, and had branches which migrated in both northerly and southerly directions.

I don't think there is a connection between Iberia and Z196, though I believe there is with some Z196 subclades (such as M153).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 03, 2012, 04:51:15 PM
Eventually, this conversation won't be theoretical, and we can drop the cluster chat.

In that regard I would call the attention of this forum's readers to the fact that FTDNA now offers a test for one of the new SNPs located below Z196 and above M153.  That SNP is Z209, found on the "Advanced Orders -- SNP test" menu since yesterday afternoon.  I assume that the first orders for this test will be batched next Wednesday evening -- in case someone here wants to be among the pioneers.  This SNP is for the N/S Cluster side of the Z196 lineage (and not the L176.2 side).  It is well above M153.  The primers for two more SNPs lower in that same lineage are being tested, and the tests should be available soon: Z278 (formerly called rs 1469371) and Z214.

The FTDNA lab has reported that it has been difficult to develop reliable primers for two higher level SNPs, Z274 and Z294.  One of these may separate the N/S Cluster from other Z196* lines -- but if so, that will not be demonstrable (by testing at FTDNA) in the near future.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: thetick on March 05, 2012, 07:05:44 PM
Glad to see Z209 available.  Hmm odd I don't see at Krahn's Draft Tree http://ytree.ftdna.com ?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 06, 2012, 12:01:33 PM
Here is a hasty update to the current Z196 testing agenda:  In addition to Z209, which was added to the menu late last week, today I see that FTDNA is offering tests for a considerable sequence of the new SNPs under Z196*.  As stated in an alert sent to R-P312 and Subclades project members, if you are Z196+ but L176.2- you should consider testing for these.  If you want to do it in a fiscally conservative fashion -- testing one SNP at a time, from the top down -- the predicted series is Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Below Z214 lies M153; so another approach (for M153+ people) might be to test for these in the opposite order, from the bottom upward.  If this is a straight line (without forks) the M153 guys are already positive for all of it; but, chances are, there are some forks and branches.  It's more economical to find them from the top down.

In any case, the news for Z196* is that there are five new Z-series SNP tests that may now be ordered from the My FTDNA Home -- Upgrade -- Advanced Orders -- SNP Tests menu.  The "North/South Cluster" lies along this sequence -- although it is possible that its defining SNP, if there is just one, could be above Z209 (the prime candidates being Z274 and Z294).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 06, 2012, 03:43:06 PM
Here is a hasty update to the current Z196 testing agenda:  In addition to Z209, which was added to the menu late last week, today I see that FTDNA is offering tests for a considerable sequence of the new SNPs under Z196*.  As stated in an alert sent to R-P312 and Subclades project members, if you are Z196+ but L176.2- you should consider testing for these.  If you want to do it in a fiscally conservative fashion -- testing one SNP at a time, from the top down -- the predicted series is Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Below Z214 lies M153; so another approach (for M153+ people) might be to test for these in the opposite order, from the bottom upward.  If this is a straight line (without forks) the M153 guys are already positive for all of it; but, chances are, there are some forks and branches.  It's more economical to find them from the top down.

In any case, the news for Z196* is that there are five new Z-series SNP tests that may now be ordered from the My FTDNA Home -- Upgrade -- Advanced Orders -- SNP Tests menu.  The "North/South Cluster" lies along this sequence -- although it is possible that its defining SNP, if there is just one, could be above Z209 (the prime candidates being Z274 and Z294).

A correction...M153+ folks would be positive for all upstream SNPs. There are no ifs or buts about it. The only way they would be negative is if by chance there is a back-mutation or if one of the SNPs is unstable, rendering it useless for phylogenetics.

All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 06, 2012, 04:46:25 PM
All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.

I defer to your better understanding of the meaning of your own charts.  To me, it looks as if a person could descend from some SNP on the level of Z209 (to name the first example that will be tested), but not necessarily Z209.  You show five other possibilities (Z215, Z268, Z271, Z295, Z296).  Are they in effect different instances or environments of the same mutation?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 06, 2012, 09:13:28 PM
All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.

I defer to your better understanding of the meaning of your own charts.  To me, it looks as if a person could descend from some SNP on the level of Z209 (to name the first example that will be tested), but not necessarily Z209.  You show five other possibilities (Z215, Z268, Z271, Z295, Z296).  Are they in effect different instances or environments of the same mutation?

Just like all people who are P312+ would be positive for L11,  L151, L52, P310 and  P311 all the M153 would be positive for all the upstream subclades and all the SNPs in that subclades. On the way down however, it could be that someone may test Z196+Z209+ but negative for a few SNPs on the same level which would then create a new branch on the way down to where M153 is. Hope I'm explaining it clearly.

By the way, I know you have been waiting for these for a while, so I wish you all the best. Hopefully we'll have more news on the Z196 front in the next couple of weeks.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on March 09, 2012, 03:59:32 PM
Here is a hasty update to the current Z196 testing agenda:  In addition to Z209, which was added to the menu late last week, today I see that FTDNA is offering tests for a considerable sequence of the new SNPs under Z196*.  As stated in an alert sent to R-P312 and Subclades project members, if you are Z196+ but L176.2- you should consider testing for these.  If you want to do it in a fiscally conservative fashion -- testing one SNP at a time, from the top down -- the predicted series is Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Below Z214 lies M153; so another approach (for M153+ people) might be to test for these in the opposite order, from the bottom upward.  If this is a straight line (without forks) the M153 guys are already positive for all of it; but, chances are, there are some forks and branches.  It's more economical to find them from the top down.

In any case, the news for Z196* is that there are five new Z-series SNP tests that may now be ordered from the My FTDNA Home -- Upgrade -- Advanced Orders -- SNP Tests menu.  The "North/South Cluster" lies along this sequence -- although it is possible that its defining SNP, if there is just one, could be above Z209 (the prime candidates being Z274 and Z294).

A correction...M153+ folks would be positive for all upstream SNPs. There are no ifs or buts about it. The only way they would be negative is if by chance there is a back-mutation or if one of the SNPs is unstable, rendering it useless for phylogenetics.

All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.

I assume what you're saying is that an M153 individual in the 1000 Genomes Project is positive for these intermediate SNPs?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 09, 2012, 06:26:54 PM
Here is a hasty update to the current Z196 testing agenda:  In addition to Z209, which was added to the menu late last week, today I see that FTDNA is offering tests for a considerable sequence of the new SNPs under Z196*.  As stated in an alert sent to R-P312 and Subclades project members, if you are Z196+ but L176.2- you should consider testing for these.  If you want to do it in a fiscally conservative fashion -- testing one SNP at a time, from the top down -- the predicted series is Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Below Z214 lies M153; so another approach (for M153+ people) might be to test for these in the opposite order, from the bottom upward.  If this is a straight line (without forks) the M153 guys are already positive for all of it; but, chances are, there are some forks and branches.  It's more economical to find them from the top down.

In any case, the news for Z196* is that there are five new Z-series SNP tests that may now be ordered from the My FTDNA Home -- Upgrade -- Advanced Orders -- SNP Tests menu.  The "North/South Cluster" lies along this sequence -- although it is possible that its defining SNP, if there is just one, could be above Z209 (the prime candidates being Z274 and Z294).

A correction...M153+ folks would be positive for all upstream SNPs. There are no ifs or buts about it. The only way they would be negative is if by chance there is a back-mutation or if one of the SNPs is unstable, rendering it useless for phylogenetics.

All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.

I assume what you're saying is that an M153 individual in the 1000 Genomes Project is positive for these intermediate SNPs?

Correct...both M153+ individuals.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on March 09, 2012, 09:34:03 PM
Here is a hasty update to the current Z196 testing agenda:  In addition to Z209, which was added to the menu late last week, today I see that FTDNA is offering tests for a considerable sequence of the new SNPs under Z196*.  As stated in an alert sent to R-P312 and Subclades project members, if you are Z196+ but L176.2- you should consider testing for these.  If you want to do it in a fiscally conservative fashion -- testing one SNP at a time, from the top down -- the predicted series is Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Below Z214 lies M153; so another approach (for M153+ people) might be to test for these in the opposite order, from the bottom upward.  If this is a straight line (without forks) the M153 guys are already positive for all of it; but, chances are, there are some forks and branches.  It's more economical to find them from the top down.

In any case, the news for Z196* is that there are five new Z-series SNP tests that may now be ordered from the My FTDNA Home -- Upgrade -- Advanced Orders -- SNP Tests menu.  The "North/South Cluster" lies along this sequence -- although it is possible that its defining SNP, if there is just one, could be above Z209 (the prime candidates being Z274 and Z294).

A correction...M153+ folks would be positive for all upstream SNPs. There are no ifs or buts about it. The only way they would be negative is if by chance there is a back-mutation or if one of the SNPs is unstable, rendering it useless for phylogenetics.

All you need is for one M153 sample to test all of them so that they get placed on the ISOGG tree. All the rest would be throwing their money away.

I assume what you're saying is that an M153 individual in the 1000 Genomes Project is positive for these intermediate SNPs?

Correct...both M153+ individuals.

Thanks. I assume also that Z209 etc. has also been found in at least one Z196+ individual who is M153-, thereby establishing their position as above and not below M153.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on March 09, 2012, 09:36:01 PM
Can anyone give a progress report on this.  I find Z196 one of the most interesting developments in p312/S116 studies.  It seems to mean S116 largely is either Z196, U152 or L21 if I understand the findings correctly.  There is obviously also  a rump of S116* going to remain.  Does anyone have any idea what proportion of  S116* is turning out to be Z196 positive or negative and if there is any geographical pattern to it?  There does not seem to be a lot of discussion about this despite the fact that there is quite a lot of S116* in some areas, particularly Iberia.  
Of the 751 P312* folks that are untested for Z196, I have 110 that fit into STR signature varieties that have Z196+ folks in them.  43 of the 751 fall into varieties that appear to be DF19+.

So roughly 15% could be Z196+ and 6% DF19+. Both percentages could grow, especially for DF19, since we know less about it.

Could you be more specific about what P312 varieties are likely to be DF19+? Perhaps this should be answered on the DF19 thread (about 4 pages back).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 23, 2012, 02:06:04 PM
I would call the attention of this forum's readers to the fact that FTDNA now offers a test for one of the new SNPs located below Z196 and above M153.  That SNP is Z209

The first results are coming in today.  Breckenheimer negative, and Winters positive, for Z209.  Winters is also positive for Z220 -- so he's ordering Z216.  And he's tested negative for Z278.

Onward and upward.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on March 23, 2012, 10:00:56 PM
I would call the attention of this forum's readers to the fact that FTDNA now offers a test for one of the new SNPs located below Z196 and above M153.  That SNP is Z209

The first results are coming in today.  Breckenheimer negative, and Winters positive, for Z209.  Winters is also positive for Z220 -- so he's ordering Z216.  And he's tested negative for Z278.

Onward and upward.

Thanks for posting, Razyn. Is there a score-sheet of sorts, to which you are referring?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 24, 2012, 07:53:08 AM
I would call the attention of this forum's readers to the fact that FTDNA now offers a test for one of the new SNPs located below Z196 and above M153.  That SNP is Z209

The first results are coming in today.  Breckenheimer negative, and Winters positive, for Z209.  Winters is also positive for Z220 -- so he's ordering Z216.  And he's tested negative for Z278.

Onward and upward.

My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 24, 2012, 02:30:05 PM
Thanks for posting, Razyn. Is there a score-sheet of sorts, to which you are referring?

Not yet.  There's a Z196 subforum, of sorts, on the MolGen forum; it has the most active thread relating specifically to Z209:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=127

I guess the first people to see most of the results will be the administrators of the R-P312 and Subclades haplogroup project.  But they'll only see them for people who have joined it.

I've heard separately from 7GE4Q, another NS cluster haplotype, that he's Z209+.  My own results haven't yet come in.  But I'm encouraged that a few of these new SNP tests only took 16 days.

Breckenheimer, XJRHT, is Z209- and is not in the NS cluster.  (IIRC he's 437=16, as well as H4=11.)  So he's the most thoroughly asterisked Z196, at the moment.

Here are a couple of interesting GBrowse displays, if the tiny url works (and keeps referring to the same display -- they seem to be sort of mutable):

http://tinyurl.com/7umogmh   This should be for Z209, and as of today what I saw was 14 tested, of which 12 are derived.  And we know Breckenheimer (Mattiacorum as was) got one of the negatives.

http://tinyurl.com/7jbwbce   This, I hope, is Z196, and today shows 286 tested, 72 derived.  It is a little troubling to me that on 9 January (when I posted about this display on a Eupedia thread) the count was 263 tested, 71 derived.  So there has only been one positive (derived) result out of the last 23 tests for Z196.  Can that be right?  Who in the heck is testing?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Matt Winters on March 25, 2012, 11:19:05 AM
My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.

Do we know that the 1000 Genomes participant in whom Z278 was found had Iberian origins? Does it stand to reason that if this is an Iberian SNP eventually not found in northern members of the NS group, the migration was north to south?

I note in the Genome Browser that the current count for Z278 testing is zero out of six.

Z220 is one out of three.

(Also, by the way, I just asked Rich Stevens to take a look and see who among the Z209 derived results are in the P312 Project.)

(And another addition: Z216 testing is 0-2 and Z214 is 0-6)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 25, 2012, 01:22:07 PM
This is beginning to have the appearance of some real groundbreaking.

And, welcome to this forum, Matt.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 25, 2012, 01:43:50 PM
My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.

Do we know that the 1000 Genomes participant in whom Z278 was found had Iberian origins? Does it stand to reason that if this is an Iberian SNP eventually not found in northern members of the NS group, the migration was north to south?

I note in the Genome Browser that the current count for Z278 testing is zero out of six.

Z220 is one out of three.

(Also, by the way, I just asked Rich Stevens to take a look and see who among the Z209 derived results are in the P312 Project.)

(And another addition: Z216 testing is 0-2 and Z214 is 0-6)

I actually saw your post first, and have not yet looked at my email, Matt. I just created an R-Z209 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

Thus far, you, Hjelt (kit 193827, Finland) and Zenker (kit 97920, Czech Republic) are in it, but I'm not done looking for Z209+ results. There could be some more.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 25, 2012, 02:01:33 PM
Rich, I see you are up to ten of the 12 reported positives, including all I've heard from.  Menge is negative.  Rose and I (top and bottom of group Qa, at the moment) tested Z209 in this batch, and I at least haven't heard.  I also tested Z220, no report yet.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 25, 2012, 02:08:20 PM
I've got 12 now. I saw Menge's negative result. The earliest test result I saw was 22 March.

It seems a widespread group, with representatives from Sweden, Finland, Spain, France, the Netherlands, Ukraine, and the Czech Republic, as well as the British Isles.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 25, 2012, 02:13:31 PM
My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.

Do we know that the 1000 Genomes participant in whom Z278 was found had Iberian origins? Does it stand to reason that if this is an Iberian SNP eventually not found in northern members of the NS group, the migration was north to south?

I note in the Genome Browser that the current count for Z278 testing is zero out of six.

Z220 is one out of three.

(Also, by the way, I just asked Rich Stevens to take a look and see who among the Z209 derived results are in the P312 Project.)

(And another addition: Z216 testing is 0-2 and Z214 is 0-6)

Matt, here was the breakdown of Z278+ 1000 Genome Project samples:

3 were from Colombia
3 were from Puerto Rico
2 were from Iberia
1 was from Mexico

There have been many Iberian sequences added since then, so the number is probably much higher. The best way to confirm these is to have an M153+ sample tested for them.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Matt Winters on March 25, 2012, 02:13:46 PM
This is beginning to have the appearance of some real groundbreaking.

And, welcome to this forum, Matt.

Thanks Dick, it's hard to believe our little old branch of R1b is finally starting to leaf out. I started on this whole deal six years ago after a chance exchange with my distant cousin Ann Turner, but it sometimes seemed more like 60 years. And with the new Roche sequencer coming online pretty soon at FTDNA, we're in for some fascinating advances in the next few years.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 25, 2012, 02:17:04 PM
I've got 12 now.

Pretty cool that all the positive tests so far were in the project.  That shows who wants to know, is voting with the pocketbook, etc.  Also, every single one of them has the three defining STR values for the N/S cluster -- except for one guy who only tested 25 markers and lacks a report for H4.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Matt Winters on March 25, 2012, 02:17:36 PM
My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.

Do we know that the 1000 Genomes participant in whom Z278 was found had Iberian origins? Does it stand to reason that if this is an Iberian SNP eventually not found in northern members of the NS group, the migration was north to south?

I note in the Genome Browser that the current count for Z278 testing is zero out of six.

Z220 is one out of three.

(Also, by the way, I just asked Rich Stevens to take a look and see who among the Z209 derived results are in the P312 Project.)

(And another addition: Z216 testing is 0-2 and Z214 is 0-6)

Matt, here was the breakdown of Z278+ 1000 Genome Project samples:

3 were from Colombia
3 were from Puerto Rico
2 were from Iberia
1 was from Mexico

There have been many Iberian sequences added since then, so the number is probably much higher. The best way to confirm these is to have an M153+ sample tested for them.

Wow, that's really looking solid. Very cool. Looks like the south is the younger bunch in our NS cluster...


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 25, 2012, 02:25:33 PM
I counted just five pending Z209 tests on our "Pending Lab Results" page.

I think it's pretty plain that all the Z196 (xM153, 176.2) guys need to test for Z209.

Everybody in the NS cluster should test for it.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Matt Winters on March 25, 2012, 02:27:25 PM
I've got 12 now. I saw Menge's negative result. The earliest test result I saw was 22 March.

It seems a widespread group, with representatives from Sweden, Finland, Spain, France, the Netherlands, Ukraine, and the Czech Republic, as well as the British Isles.

Thanks Rich, this is great. Your fellow SNP junkies salute you!


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 25, 2012, 02:29:48 PM
I've got 12 now. I saw Menge's negative result. The earliest test result I saw was 22 March.

It seems a widespread group, with representatives from Sweden, Finland, Spain, France, the Netherlands, Ukraine, and the Czech Republic, as well as the British Isles.

Thanks Rich, this is great. Your fellow SNP junkies salute you!


You're very welcome!

It's pretty exciting to see something like this take off. What an interesting subclade!

I wonder what it means in terms of ancient peoples. Any guesses?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 25, 2012, 02:38:07 PM
I wonder what it means in terms of ancient peoples. Any guesses?

Traders and prospectors who came west from the (no longer extant) mouth of the Vistula River in sewn boats, carrying amber and looking for the ores of bronze.  And, you know, local babes.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 25, 2012, 02:44:06 PM
. . .  And, you know, local babes.

LOL. I think that was an R1b specialty.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 25, 2012, 02:48:05 PM
Well, Y-DNA is a guy thing, if anything is.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 25, 2012, 03:08:22 PM
Seeing that we only have five Z209 tests pending right now, I just sent out a bulk email encouraging project members to order both Z196 and Z209. Here it is.

Quote
***THIS IS A BULK EMAIL THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, HAS TO GO OUT TO THE ENTIRE PROJECT. PLEASE DISREGARD IT IF THE TITLE DOES NOT APPLY YOU.***

Dear Friends,

Are you a member of the R1b North-South Cluster? You are if you have the following STR marker values:

437=14
448=18
H4=10

If you check your STR markers and find you have those values, please consider ordering the SNPs Z196 and Z209. Z196 is nearly universal among members of the North-South Cluster, and Z209 is a newly discovered SNP that is downstream of Z196.

If you are Z196+ and negative for M153 and L176.2 (including SRY2627 and L165, which are downstream of L176.2), then you should order Z209. We are picking up a lot of positive Z209 results among men already tested Z196+.

Of course, neither FTDNA nor I can promise you a positive result.

Please do NOT order Z196 or Z209 if you have already tested positive for M153, L176.2, SRY2627, L165, DF19, L238, U152 and any of its subclades, or L21 and any of its subclades. You would be wasting your money.

To order any new SNP, like Z196 and Z209, just go to your "myFTDNA" pages and click on "Order Upgrade" in the upper right. Scroll down and click on "Order an Advanced Test" (under the heading "Advanced Tests"). On the next screen, click the drop-down menu on the "Test Type" box and choose "SNP". Then, in the "Marker" box, type the name of the SNP. Click "Find". That SNP should come up, showing a $29 price. Click "Add" and then the little orange "Next" button in the lower right. After that, just complete the fields to order the test.

Thanks!



Of course, it probably won't go out until tomorrow. (Hope I don't get deluged with emails as a consequence, but I always do when I send out bulk emails like this one.)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Matt Winters on March 25, 2012, 03:26:55 PM
Thanks Rich.

By the way, as I was walking the dogs just now, it occurred to me to see if you can identify the stated geographic origins of the Z278- people who have just tested. Obviously, I'm one of them, with solid English roots. So far as you can see, are the others also non-Iberians?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 25, 2012, 03:38:05 PM
Thanks Rich.

By the way, as I was walking the dogs just now, it occurred to me to see if you can identify the stated geographic origins of the Z278- people who have just tested. Obviously, I'm one of them, with solid English roots. So far as you can see, are the others also non-Iberians?

I looked just now, Matt, but yours was the only Z278 result I could find.

I got a message that one of our newly-minted, non-Iberian Z209+ guys just ordered Z278, however.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 25, 2012, 03:47:47 PM
Has any M153 guy ordered the battery of five new hierarchical SNPs between Z196 and M153?  Rich Rocca has previously said that only one needs to do so, and others would be wasting their money.  But of the seven in the P312 and Subclades project, does anybody have pending results for them?  That might be a candidate for M-153 project funds, if their project has any funds... haven't looked at it, lately.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 25, 2012, 03:53:10 PM
Has any M153 guy ordered the battery of five new hierarchical SNPs between Z196 and M153?  Rich Rocca has previously said that only one needs to do so, and others would be wasting their money.  But of the seven in the P312 and Subclades project, does anybody have pending results for them?  That might be a candidate for M-153 project funds, if their project has any funds... haven't looked at it, lately.

You know, I just assumed M153 and Z209 were parallel, but I don't know why I thought that. Maybe M153 is downstream of Z209?

We have only a small contingent of M153+ guys in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Checking the "Pending Lab Results" page, I don't see a Z209 or Z278 order for any of them.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 25, 2012, 04:03:15 PM

You know, I just assumed M153 and Z209 were parallel, but I don't know why I thought that.

It's that optical illusion from ISOGG, and Thos. Krahn's Draft Tree, that's been bugging me since about last June.  M153 is downstream from a whole string of things, including all five of these new ones plus the still untestable Z274 and Z294.  (Either of which btw may catch some Z196* person, such as Breckenheimer, who tests Z209-.)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 25, 2012, 04:14:26 PM

You know, I just assumed M153 and Z209 were parallel, but I don't know why I thought that.

It's that optical illusion from ISOGG, and Thos. Krahn's Draft Tree, that's been bugging me since about last June.  M153 is downstream from a whole string of things, including all five of these new ones plus the still untestable Z274 and Z294.  (Either of which btw may catch some Z196* person, such as Breckenheimer, who tests Z209-.)

Well, maybe I can clear things up . . . a little, anyway.

I just sent an email to a pretty active M153+ guy offering him a free Z209 test to be paid for out of the project's General Fund.

I hope he takes us up on it.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 25, 2012, 07:35:05 PM

You know, I just assumed M153 and Z209 were parallel, but I don't know why I thought that.

It's that optical illusion from ISOGG, and Thos. Krahn's Draft Tree, that's been bugging me since about last June.  M153 is downstream from a whole string of things, including all five of these new ones plus the still untestable Z274 and Z294.  (Either of which btw may catch some Z196* person, such as Breckenheimer, who tests Z209-.)

Well, maybe I can clear things up . . . a little, anyway.

I just sent an email to a pretty active M153+ guy offering him a free Z209 test to be paid for out of the project's General Fund.

I hope he takes us up on it.

Here is a link to the proposed Z196 tree I made last year:

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png (http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png)

Z278 is actually rs1469371 in the diagram and DF27 should be between P312 and Z196.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 26, 2012, 10:55:20 AM
Here is a link to the proposed Z196 tree I made last year:

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png (http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png)

Z278 is actually rs1469371 in the diagram and DF27 should be between P312 and Z196.

You've previously said that Z225 should also go under DF27, so that would be another tweak to your existing chart from last summer.  Perhaps Z225 and Z196 need to be dropped a level, to remain side by side under DF27?  But, sufficient unto the day are the SNP discoveries thereof.  At the moment, we can't test for DF27.

Where is MikeWww while the interesting stuff is happening?  I want to see his take on this Z209 pattern -- just twelve positives that already mention ten countries, and stretch from Ukraine to Spain (and via the Baltic?) on one SNP no paper had mentioned as of March 2012.  Seems likely to be a fun one, for him (to play with its variance figures, etc.).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 26, 2012, 11:11:37 AM
Where is MikeWww while the interesting stuff is happening? ...
Just got back from Manhattan, but it wasn't NY. Also was in Norman, not Normandy...   L21 research.
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=106091&SPID=13131&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=205392492


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 26, 2012, 11:58:31 AM
Congratulations, glad to see a representative of the Www family doing so well for my terminal alma mater (Texas '78).  Hook 'em, Horns.

And btw I once drove from London to Manchester w/o leaving Kentucky.

Now, about Z209...


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 26, 2012, 06:32:02 PM
L165 keeps growing. I found a haplotype that I couldn't cluster well with the other L165 guys. I thought his location was interesting but I'm not sure if that was just a guess. May be more likely of English origin.
f115642   Mayberry   R-Z196/L176/L165   Germany

Here are the English MDKA folks:
f170048   Brownson   England, East, Essex
f188925   Ayton   England, East, Norfolk, New Buckenham
f163136   Ayton   England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Yorkshire, Scarborough, West Ayton
f3134   Cassidy   England
fN60197   Terrill   England
f217815   Terrill   England
f64253   Terrill   England
f194083   Terrill   England
f195300   Terrill   England

Here are the Scots/Ulster folks:
f162876   Bell/Williams   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Armagh
f18911   Bell   Scotland, Fife, St. Andrews
f165113   zzzUnkName   Scotland, Fife, St. Andrews
f194727   McDonald   Scotland, Grampian, Moray, Knockando
fN9281   MacLeod   Scotland, Hebrides
f69720   MacDonald   Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Achscoriclate
f200478   MacDonald   Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Halkirk, Glutt
f46281   McDonald   Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Latheron
f50928   MacDonald   Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Reay
f213423   McLeod   Scotland, Highland, Inverness
f189071   Cameron   Scotland, Highland, Lochabar
f124845   McDonald   Scotland, Highland, Sutherland
f150848   MacLeod   Scotland, Inner Hebrides, Isle of Raasay, Riggs
f150587   McLeod   Scotland, Inner Hebrides, Isle of Skye, Bracadale
f100750   MacNeill   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Barra
f43984   MacPherson   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Barra
f65411   MacNeil   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Barra, Brevig
f47096   MacLeod   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Harris
f50745   MacLeod   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, North Uist
f197816   MacMullin   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, South Uist
f137480   McLeod   Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f1226   Beall   Scotland
f1207   Beall   Scotland
f87332   Buie   Scotland
f41571   MacLeod   Scotland
f96597   MacLeod   Scotland
f66014   MacLeod   Scotland
f24712   MacLeod   Scotland
f193751   MacLeod   Scotland
f205610   MacNeil   Scotland
f179639   MacNeil   Scotland
f196207   MacNeill   Scotland
f25620   McDonald   Scotland
f172409   McLeod   Scotland
f36748   McLeod   Scotland
fN39514   McLeod   Scotland
f122999   McLeod   Scotland
f36109   McLeod   Scotland
f99027   McLeod   Scotland
f38596   McNeil   Scotland
f173334   McNeill   Scotland
fA1889   zzzUnkName   Scotland

Keep in mind that L165's brothers and L176.2* and SRY2627/M167 and EthnoAncestry use to call L165 a "Norse" marker. There are a couple of Scandinavians too.



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 26, 2012, 07:47:53 PM

Well, maybe I can clear things up . . . a little, anyway.

I just sent an email to a pretty active M153+ guy offering him a free Z209 test to be paid for out of the project's General Fund.

I hope he takes us up on it.


Our M153+ guy went for it, so now we have an M153+ guy with a Z209 test on order.

We should know soon (I hope).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 26, 2012, 07:49:35 PM
Where is MikeWww while the interesting stuff is happening? ...
Just got back from Manhattan, but it wasn't NY. Also was in Norman, not Normandy...   L21 research.
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=106091&SPID=13131&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=205392492

You just can't keep those steely-muscled L21+ guys down!


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 26, 2012, 10:41:25 PM
I want to see his take on this Z209 pattern -- just twelve positives that already mention ten countries, and stretch from Ukraine to Spain (and via the Baltic?) on one SNP no paper had mentioned as of March 2012.  Seems likely to be a fun one, for him (to play with its variance figures, etc.).
Here is what I have on Z209. Several positives.

f97920   Zencker   Czech Republic, Bohemia, Waltersdorf   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS
f1401   Chernik   Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
f90025   Vivies   France, Aquitane, Midi-Pyrénées, Haute-Garonne, Pouze   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418
fE11427   zzzUnkName   Spain   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
fN16822   Klaasen   Netherlands, North Brabant, Grave   Z196+ Z209+ M153-   z1418-NS-A
f81973   Winter   England, London (? or Norfolk)   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2- Z278- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS-B
f109430   Larkin   England   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS-E
f72190   Nuccol   England   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-B
f27539   Leyton   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-C
f193827   Hjelt(Torku)   Finland, Finland Proper, Turku   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
f76755   Nilsson(Sjöstorp)   Sweden, Skåne län, Malmöhus, Dalby, Sjöstorp   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-A
f148469   Parker   zzzUnkOrigin   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-A

and this negative.
fN3432   Menge   Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Breckenheim   Z196+ M153- L176.2- Z209-   z1518-A

It looks to me like Z209+ is the North-South Cluster
plus a little bit of stretch around the edges.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 27, 2012, 11:32:04 AM
Over on the MolGen site we just heard from Hans van Vliet that he's Z209+, Z268+, Z220+, Z216-.  I didn't even know there was a test for Z268... back to the drawing board.  Anyway, he and Winters are now a Z220+ subclade, and both have NS cluster markers.

Update:  mine are in too, and I'm positive for both Z209 and Z220.  And I am way off modal -- a little bit for the NS cluster (have GATA H4=11), but a lot for some other markers, most noticeably 385ab.  I would note that a couple of guys who aren't testing so many SNPs share my wackiest off-modals, and one is my NPE known cousin.  In the R-P312 project, they are kits N58749 (tested Z196+ at my suggestion), and my cousin 60943.

I think Matt Winters and I (both Z220+) have a GD of 17/37 and 38/67.  Something like that... and he tested a few STRs that I didn't, so our Ysearch results don't pair up exactly.  Anyway, isn't that supposed to mean that Z220 is still quite old?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 27, 2012, 01:35:24 PM
Here are a couple of interesting GBrowse displays, if the tiny url works (and keeps referring to the same display -- they seem to be sort of mutable):

I thought it might be useful, as long as they stay uncorrupted (and still refer to the right SNPs), to group all of these together:

[Edit 4/5/2012: all six of the urls I posted here are now corrupted -- point to some other SNP or position on the chromosome -- so I have deleted them.  They were interesting for a few days, anyway.]

So far, the rate of success (positive or derived tests) takes a nosedive after Z220, which at first glance seems to include NS cluster guys.  Somebody must have the next three SNPs, but the subclades may already begin to skew toward persons of Iberian ancestry, or perhaps southwestern French -- or somebody else who isn't yet testing for Z216 and below.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 27, 2012, 06:37:10 PM
I want to see his take on this Z209 pattern -- just twelve positives that already mention ten countries, and stretch from Ukraine to Spain (and via the Baltic?) on one SNP no paper had mentioned as of March 2012.  Seems likely to be a fun one, for him (to play with its variance figures, etc.).
Here is what I have on Z209. Several positives.....
It looks to me like Z209+ is the North-South Cluster [/b]plus a little bit of stretch around the edges.

I've now got fifteen Z209+ people. The half dozen sub-clusters of z1418-NS (North-South) that I had classified all appear to be Z209+, some of whom are what I call z1418*, and not really North-South.  

I saw the email that RMS put out. Looks good.   I do have a question though. RMS said we don't need M153 or L176.2 test.  I agree that only one  of each needs to test, however, has an L176.2+ and an M153+ tested for for Z209 under FTDNA's system? I feel more comfortable about that versus interpreting 1000 Human Genome data, which can be hard to read some times.



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on March 27, 2012, 08:11:59 PM
As of this evening, there are 15 guys in the R-Z209 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project. A couple of them are Z220+, as well, but I'm not quite ready to create a separate category for that one yet.



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on March 27, 2012, 10:38:17 PM
I want to see his take on this Z209 pattern -- just twelve positives that already mention ten countries, and stretch from Ukraine to Spain (and via the Baltic?) on one SNP no paper had mentioned as of March 2012.  Seems likely to be a fun one, for him (to play with its variance figures, etc.).
Here is what I have on Z209. Several positives.....
It looks to me like Z209+ is the North-South Cluster [/b]plus a little bit of stretch around the edges.

I've now got fifteen Z209+ people. The half dozen sub-clusters of z1418-NS (North-South) that I had classified all appear to be Z209+, some of whom are what I call z1418*, and not really North-South.  

I saw the email that RMS put out. Looks good.   I do have a question though. RMS said we don't need M153 or L176.2 test.  I agree that only one  of each needs to test, however, has an L176.2+ and an M153+ tested for for Z209 under FTDNA's system? I feel more comfortable about that versus interpreting 1000 Human Genome data, which can be hard to read some times.



Mike, the 1000 Genomes Data is pretty cut and dry, so I don't know what you are seeing that is making you question it.

Either way, it doesn't matter - in order to get Z209 placed properly on the ISOGG tree, a L176.2+ sample will have to test negative for it and a M153+ sample will need to test positive for it. It looks like Rich already got a M153+ person to test for it.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 28, 2012, 12:12:37 AM
I want to see his take on this Z209 pattern -- just twelve positives that already mention ten countries, and stretch from Ukraine to Spain (and via the Baltic?) on one SNP no paper had mentioned as of March 2012.  Seems likely to be a fun one, for him (to play with its variance figures, etc.).
Here is what I have on Z209. Several positives.....
It looks to me like Z209+ is the North-South Cluster [/b]plus a little bit of stretch around the edges.

I've now got fifteen Z209+ people. The half dozen sub-clusters of z1418-NS (North-South) that I had classified all appear to be Z209+, some of whom are what I call z1418*, and not really North-South.  

I saw the email that RMS put out. Looks good.   I do have a question though. RMS said we don't need M153 or L176.2 test.  I agree that only one  of each needs to test, however, has an L176.2+ and an M153+ tested for for Z209 under FTDNA's system? I feel more comfortable about that versus interpreting 1000 Human Genome data, which can be hard to read some times.
Mike, the 1000 Genomes Data is pretty cut and dry, so I don't know what you are seeing that is making you question it.

Either way, it doesn't matter - in order to get Z209 placed properly on the ISOGG tree, a L176.2+ sample will have to test negative for it and a M153+ sample will need to test positive for it. It looks like Rich already got a M153+ person to test for it.
We had a misinterpretation from the 1000 HG project on Z254. A lot of folks tested for it and shouldn't have. Things like this can happen. It is no one's fault.

The point is we need to get both an M153 guy to test and an L176.2 guy to test, which you agree with. I think FTDNA only accepts what they can verify in their own labs.  

RMS, do we need an L176.2 tester?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on March 28, 2012, 12:40:03 AM
It looks like Rich already got a M153+ person to test for it.

RMS, do we need an L176.2 tester?

Conrad Terrill (L176.2+, L165+) already volunteered, I think with zero expectation of being positive for Z209.  This was in an email Tuesday afternoon to the R-P312 Yahoo group.  Wouldn't the elegant solution be to request that he would go ahead and do that?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 28, 2012, 08:12:32 AM
It looks like Rich already got a M153+ person to test for it.
RMS, do we need an L176.2 tester?
Conrad Terrill (L176.2+, L165+) already volunteered, I think with zero expectation of being positive for Z209.  This was in an email Tuesday afternoon to the R-P312 Yahoo group.  Wouldn't the elegant solution be to request that he would go ahead and do that?
In support of Z196 overall, I think Conrad will test and have asked him to. I think the odds are very low he will be positive, but you never know.  We have other subclades with multiple STR signatures. This is why we test.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 28, 2012, 08:39:21 AM
As of this evening, there are 15 guys in the R-Z209 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project....
I think Z209 is old. We have GD's of up to 19 and 20 at 67 markers to the current modal for Z209 folks.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Matt Winters on April 05, 2012, 10:48:29 AM
As I assumed, I am Z216-.

Perhaps the current SNPs downstream from Z220 are Iberian?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 05, 2012, 03:03:47 PM
Well, once again your result posted before mine did.  We are in the same batch, 457, but I think your order went in first.  Took 8 days to test you, this time!  Maybe they just looked at your forum posts, instead of your DNA?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Matt Winters on April 05, 2012, 03:46:08 PM
Maybe they just looked at your forum posts, instead of your DNA?

Yeah, maybe ...boy, I remember SNP tests sometimes taking months and months.

Anyway, I see we have a few more Z209+. I hope more will start working their way down the line so we can perhaps see some clarity in terms of origins.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 07, 2012, 12:46:18 AM
I want to see his take on this Z209 pattern -- just twelve positives that already mention ten countries, and stretch from Ukraine to Spain (and via the Baltic?) on one SNP no paper had mentioned as of March 2012.  Seems likely to be a fun one, for him (to play with its variance figures, etc.).
Here is what I have on Z209. Several positives.

f97920   Zencker   Czech Republic, Bohemia, Waltersdorf   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS
f1401   Chernik   Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
f90025   Vivies   France, Aquitane, Midi-Pyrénées, Haute-Garonne, Pouze   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418
fE11427   zzzUnkName   Spain   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
fN16822   Klaasen   Netherlands, North Brabant, Grave   Z196+ Z209+ M153-   z1418-NS-A
f81973   Winter   England, London (? or Norfolk)   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2- Z278- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS-B
f109430   Larkin   England   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS-E
f72190   Nuccol   England   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-B
f27539   Leyton   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-C
f193827   Hjelt(Torku)   Finland, Finland Proper, Turku   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
f76755   Nilsson(Sjöstorp)   Sweden, Skåne län, Malmöhus, Dalby, Sjöstorp   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-A
f148469   Parker   zzzUnkOrigin   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-A

and this negative.
fN3432   Menge   Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Breckenheim   Z196+ M153- L176.2- Z209-   z1518-A

It looks to me like Z209+ is the North-South Cluster
plus a little bit of stretch around the edges.

12 positives!
But including the alteregos of Razyn and Spanjool, and also an Aussie whose ancestral line is originating in South France just above the Basque area and another 3 then the counts becomes 18.
The total of possible positives is 55; so already 33 %.
Downstream Z274 the total is 73 (inclusive M153): M153 and Z209 are on equal footing (sofar): 25 %.



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 07, 2012, 07:24:48 AM
I want to see his take on this Z209 pattern -- just twelve positives that already mention ten countries, and stretch from Ukraine to Spain (and via the Baltic?) on one SNP no paper had mentioned as of March 2012.  Seems likely to be a fun one, for him (to play with its variance figures, etc.).
Here is what I have on Z209. Several positives.

f97920   Zencker   Czech Republic, Bohemia, Waltersdorf   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS
f1401   Chernik   Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
f90025   Vivies   France, Aquitane, Midi-Pyrénées, Haute-Garonne, Pouze   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418
fE11427   zzzUnkName   Spain   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
fN16822   Klaasen   Netherlands, North Brabant, Grave   Z196+ Z209+ M153-   z1418-NS-A
f81973   Winter   England, London (? or Norfolk)   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2- Z278- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS-B
f109430   Larkin   England   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2- L586- L587- L588-   z1418-NS-E
f72190   Nuccol   England   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-B
f27539   Leyton   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-C
f193827   Hjelt(Torku)   Finland, Finland Proper, Turku   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS
f76755   Nilsson(Sjöstorp)   Sweden, Skåne län, Malmöhus, Dalby, Sjöstorp   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-A
f148469   Parker   zzzUnkOrigin   Z196+ Z209+ M153- L176.2-   z1418-NS-A

and this negative.
fN3432   Menge   Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Breckenheim   Z196+ M153- L176.2- Z209-   z1518-A

It looks to me like Z209+ is the North-South Cluster
plus a little bit of stretch around the edges.

12 positives!
But including the alteregos of Razyn and Spanjool, and also an Aussie whose ancestral line is originating in South France just above the Basque area and another 3 then the counts becomes 18.
The total of possible positives is 55; so already 33 %.
Downstream Z274 the total is 73 (inclusive M153): M153 and Z209 are on equal footing (sofar): 25 %.



Nineteen positives as of this morning, and they're from all over the place.

Check out the R-Z209 category on page 2 of the Y-DNA Results pages of the R-P312 and Subclades Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?vgroup=atlantic-r1b1c&section=yresults).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 07, 2012, 09:15:17 AM
so, any patterns observed?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 07, 2012, 01:56:31 PM
Yes, but I'm not the one observing them.

Z209 has 20/25 positive, but Z216 0/7, per Gbrowse as of this afternoon.  I have a pending order for Z216, don't know about others that are still outstanding.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Matt Winters on April 07, 2012, 06:00:27 PM
so, any patterns observed?
Here is a rough map of ancestral locations thus far, based on participants' best guesses about where we are from:

http://g.co/maps/27krf


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 07, 2012, 06:05:44 PM
so, any patterns observed?
Here is a rough map of ancestral locations thus far, based on participants' best guesses about where we are from:

http://g.co/maps/27krf

Clearly, another subclade of P312 spread by randy Irish monks! ;-)

Or was that just one guy - Randy the Irish Monk? :-O


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 07, 2012, 06:36:02 PM
Here is a rough map of ancestral locations thus far, based on participants' best guesses about where we are from:

Any particular reason for leaving out the Ukrainian guy, Chernik?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Matt Winters on April 07, 2012, 09:01:35 PM
Whoops, couldn't find that place spelling and then got distracted. He's on the map now, thanks.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on April 10, 2012, 09:36:09 PM
so, any patterns observed?
Here is a rough map of ancestral locations thus far, based on participants' best guesses about where we are from:

http://g.co/maps/27krf

It looks to me like it is going to be extremely difficult to pin an ethnic label on them, though I have little doubt some will give it a go.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 14, 2012, 02:44:31 AM
DF27 isn't on the menu yet, but DF17 has just popped up:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=234

I don't know anything about it that isn't in that message.  I checked, it really is on offer now -- and so is Z195.  That's another one of those "same level" SNPs.  Is it meaningful to test for Z195 if you are Z196+?  I'd welcome commentary from Rich Rocca, or anybody who knows what's going on with these.  And I'm still awaiting my Z216 results.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 14, 2012, 08:31:06 AM
DF27 isn't on the menu yet, but DF17 has just popped up:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=234

I don't know anything about it that isn't in that message.  I checked, it really is on offer now -- and so is Z195.  That's another one of those "same level" SNPs.  Is it meaningful to test for Z195 if you are Z196+?  I'd welcome commentary from Rich Rocca, or anybody who knows what's going on with these.  And I'm still awaiting my Z16 results.

You are right, they fall within the 'same level' category, so they should be ordered by the SNP obsessed, or those with deep pockets.

The quote attributed to Bennett seems to be in relation to DF27 and not DF17.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 14, 2012, 08:48:18 AM
The quote attributed to Bennett seems to be in relation to DF27 and not DF17.

I had wondered if that was it.

On the other hand, the Gbrowse display says (for DF17) "Based on 1000 Genomes Project data under Z195/Z196"

Gbrowse says for DF27 "downstream of P312 and parent of Z196 and Z225/Z229"

And btw the quote attributed to me (because it's what I said) about "Z16 results" was a typo.  I'm waiting for Z216, and I have corrected the typo -- can't change the quote, though.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 14, 2012, 10:12:24 AM
As I assumed, I am Z216-.

Perhaps the current SNPs downstream from Z220 are Iberian?

Mine posted today, Z216- also.  I just checked Gbrowse detail, and so far the testing on that one is 0 of 8 derived.  I don't think an M153 guy has SNP-tested for it, yet.

Z220 is up to 4 positives in 7 tests.

Z209 is 22 of 28.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 15, 2012, 06:53:43 AM
Untill now none of the 8 Z216 tests came out positive.
However there is one Z278+: Leyton.
In a network analysis this Leyton splits of the Z220 cluster (of 4) with a of modal DYS460=10 mutation.
The majority of the M153 folks are also DYS460=10
So it looks as if that STR marker is indicative of a Basque group that split of the Z274-z278 clade branch.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 15, 2012, 07:40:32 AM
The DF17 SNP is 2 nt down the rs 9786689 SNP;
mostly two such neigbouring polymorphisms are tagging along.
However this rs 9786689 snp is nog part of my 23andme results.
Anyone else maybe?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 15, 2012, 09:51:19 AM
The DF17 SNP is 2 nt down the rs 9786689 SNP;
mostly two such neigbouring polymorphisms are tagging along.
However this rs 9786689 snp is nog part of my 23andme results.
Anyone else maybe?

It isn't on mine (v3 chip), unless it got a different number or something.  Anyway I have the raw data in a .txt file and I just searched it for 9786689, "not found."

The information about DYS460=10 as potentially an indicator of a Basque subclade diverging from the rest of Z209 (or Z220) is interesting.  Something to look for, anyway.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 16, 2012, 07:09:22 PM
Gbrowse says for DF27 "downstream of P312 and parent of Z196 and Z225/Z229"....
Are there any concerns about the stability of DF27 as a unique event?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 16, 2012, 07:16:26 PM
I don't want to sound ignorant, but I'll risk it.

Were you all aware that M153 is apparently downstream of Z209?

Well, maybe you all knew that already (I did not), but we just had an M153+ guy get a Z209+ result.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 16, 2012, 07:24:37 PM
I don't want to sound ignorant, but I'll risk it.

Were you all aware that M153 is apparently downstream of Z209?

Well, maybe you all knew that already (I did not), but we just had an M153+ guy get a Z209+ result.
No, I wasn't aware.  That's cool....    Razyn would know, but I think this confirms what we've thought for a while, M153, is a part of the North-South Cluster.

This is important for the Basque thread if I have this right.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 16, 2012, 07:40:05 PM
It slipped my memory at first, but I just recalled that this is the result of the Z209 test we sponsored to find out if M153 is downstream of Z209.

So, now we know! :-)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 16, 2012, 07:53:17 PM
It slipped my memory at first, but I just recalled that this is the result of the Z209 test we sponsored to find out if M153 is downstream of Z209.

So, now we know! :-)

The new Z209+ M153 guy is Sallaberry, kit 85359, whose ancestor came from Bidache, France. Bidache is either in the French Basque country or very close to it.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on April 16, 2012, 07:54:32 PM
It slipped my memory at first, but I just recalled that this is the result of the Z209 test we sponsored to find out if M153 is downstream of Z209.

So, now we know! :-)

And corroborates the 1000 Genome research,

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png (http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png)

good news :)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 16, 2012, 07:58:19 PM
This is moving a little faster than my head is.  But if I understood him correctly, Rich Rocca was saying a few weeks ago that we needed one M153 guy to test the whole sequence Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278, Z214.  Assuming (as Rich did) that he was positive for all of those, they could be hung on the ISOGG tree.  And that would give a heck of a lot more realistic visualization of the Basque fraction of this large, old, and widespread clade of Z196 (the NS cluster).

I don't think it has yet been established (by FTDNA testing, the only thing that seems to matter in certain circles) that any Z209+ person is Z220-, although that may sort of stand to reason.  Last I heard, only four of us who are Z209+ have tested for Z220 -- and we were all positive for it, too.

And we still haven't spotted any STR pattern indicative of Z216, that I know of.  The break downstream from Z220 seems very decisive, wherever it is.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on April 16, 2012, 08:05:06 PM
This is moving a little faster than my head is.  But if I understood him correctly, Rich Rocca was saying a few weeks ago that we needed one M153 guy to test the whole sequence Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278, Z214.  Assuming (as Rich did) that he was positive for all of those, they could be hung on the ISOGG tree.  And that would give a heck of a lot more realistic visualization of the Basque fraction of this large, old, and widespread clade of Z196 (the NS cluster).

I don't think it has yet been established (by FTDNA testing, the only thing that seems to matter in certain circles) that any Z209+ person is Z220-, although that may sort of stand to reason.  Last I heard, only four of us who are Z209+ have tested for Z220 -- and we were all positive for it, too.

And we still haven't spotted any STR pattern indicative of Z216, that I know of.  The break downstream from Z220 seems very decisive, wherever it is.

Unfortunately 1000 genome results alone aren't considered good enough in order to place SNPs on the ISOGG tree, even when the readings are considered clear.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 16, 2012, 08:23:15 PM
This is moving a little faster than my head is.  But if I understood him correctly, Rich Rocca was saying a few weeks ago that we needed one M153 guy to test the whole sequence Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278, Z214.  Assuming (as Rich did) that he was positive for all of those, they could be hung on the ISOGG tree.  And that would give a heck of a lot more realistic visualization of the Basque fraction of this large, old, and widespread clade of Z196 (the NS cluster).

I don't think it has yet been established (by FTDNA testing, the only thing that seems to matter in certain circles) that any Z209+ person is Z220-, although that may sort of stand to reason.  Last I heard, only four of us who are Z209+ have tested for Z220 -- and we were all positive for it, too.

And we still haven't spotted any STR pattern indicative of Z216, that I know of.  The break downstream from Z220 seems very decisive, wherever it is.

Is FTDNA offering all of those? I know they offer Z220, Z216, and Z278. Do they offer Z214, as well?

Sallaberry is pretty excited about his result. I think he would be willing to let us sponsor testing him for the rest, as well.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 16, 2012, 08:54:06 PM
This is moving a little faster than my head is.  But if I understood him correctly, Rich Rocca was saying a few weeks ago that we needed one M153 guy to test the whole sequence Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278, Z214.  Assuming (as Rich did) that he was positive for all of those, they could be hung on the ISOGG tree.  And that would give a heck of a lot more realistic visualization of the Basque fraction of this large, old, and widespread clade of Z196 (the NS cluster).

I don't think it has yet been established (by FTDNA testing, the only thing that seems to matter in certain circles) that any Z209+ person is Z220-, although that may sort of stand to reason.  Last I heard, only four of us who are Z209+ have tested for Z220 -- and we were all positive for it, too.

And we still haven't spotted any STR pattern indicative of Z216, that I know of.  The break downstream from Z220 seems very decisive, wherever it is.

Is FTDNA offering all of those? I know they offer Z220, Z216, and Z278. Do they offer Z214, as well?

Sallaberry is pretty excited about his result. I think he would be willing to let us sponsor testing him for the rest, as well.

Okay, I see that all those SNPs are available from FTDNA.

Mr. Sallaberry has agreed, and all those tests (Z214, Z216, Z220, and Z278) have been ordered for him.

So, we should have the answers soon.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on April 17, 2012, 01:48:21 PM
Gbrowse says for DF27 "downstream of P312 and parent of Z196 and Z225/Z229"....
Are there any concerns about the stability of DF27 as a unique event?

As I understand it, there were such concerns at one time. Apparently though the problem lies more in the testing than with the stability of DF27. I gather it takes two passes to verify it.
However Rrocca is really the person who should answer this question, as he has been in contact with Thomas K. about it.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 17, 2012, 02:08:50 PM
Gbrowse says for DF27 "downstream of P312 and parent of Z196 and Z225/Z229"....
Are there any concerns about the stability of DF27 as a unique event?

As I understand it, there were such concerns at one time. Apparently though the problem lies more in the testing than with the stability of DF27. I gather it takes two passes to verify it.
However Rrocca is really the person who should answer this question, as he has been in contact with Thomas K. about it.

The 1KG data had a few inconsistencies, but they had the look of misalignments in a few data samples.

The issues with the amplification were resolved when Thomas developed nested primers for it. Since DF27 needs two passes instead of one, the cost will be $39 instead of $29, which I think is reasonable considering the overhead. It looks like it will be available for testing this week or next.

I commend FTDNA for going the extra step on this SNP. They understand the significance of it and probably stand to make very little money on it.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on April 17, 2012, 02:14:59 PM
Gbrowse says for DF27 "downstream of P312 and parent of Z196 and Z225/Z229"....
Are there any concerns about the stability of DF27 as a unique event?

As I understand it, there were such concerns at one time. Apparently though the problem lies more in the testing than with the stability of DF27. I gather it takes two passes to verify it.
However Rrocca is really the person who should answer this question, as he has been in contact with Thomas K. about it.

The 1KG data had a few inconsistencies, but they had the look of misalignments in a few data samples.

The issues with the amplification were resolved when Thomas developed nested primers for it. Since DF27 needs two passes instead of one, the cost will be $39 instead of $29, which I think is reasonable considering the overhead. It looks like it will be available for testing this week or next.

I commend FTDNA for going the extra step on this SNP. They understand the significance of it and probably stand to make very little money on it.

Hooray! I hope the extra cost won't discourage the large number of P312* individuals from ordering it.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 17, 2012, 02:19:19 PM
Gbrowse says for DF27 "downstream of P312 and parent of Z196 and Z225/Z229"....
Are there any concerns about the stability of DF27 as a unique event?

As I understand it, there were such concerns at one time. Apparently though the problem lies more in the testing than with the stability of DF27. I gather it takes two passes to verify it.
However Rrocca is really the person who should answer this question, as he has been in contact with Thomas K. about it.

The 1KG data had a few inconsistencies, but they had the look of misalignments in a few data samples.

The issues with the amplification were resolved when Thomas developed nested primers for it. Since DF27 needs two passes instead of one, the cost will be $39 instead of $29, which I think is reasonable considering the overhead. It looks like it will be available for testing this week or next.

I commend FTDNA for going the extra step on this SNP. They understand the significance of it and probably stand to make very little money on it.

Hooray! I hope the extra cost won't discourage the large number of P312* individuals from ordering it.

I agree, but I seriously thought the overhead was going to make the price much more prohibitive. I know you have been waiting a long time, so good luck to you on this one.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on April 17, 2012, 02:22:41 PM
Gbrowse says for DF27 "downstream of P312 and parent of Z196 and Z225/Z229"....
Are there any concerns about the stability of DF27 as a unique event?

As I understand it, there were such concerns at one time. Apparently though the problem lies more in the testing than with the stability of DF27. I gather it takes two passes to verify it.
However Rrocca is really the person who should answer this question, as he has been in contact with Thomas K. about it.

The 1KG data had a few inconsistencies, but they had the look of misalignments in a few data samples.

The issues with the amplification were resolved when Thomas developed nested primers for it. Since DF27 needs two passes instead of one, the cost will be $39 instead of $29, which I think is reasonable considering the overhead. It looks like it will be available for testing this week or next.

I commend FTDNA for going the extra step on this SNP. They understand the significance of it and probably stand to make very little money on it.

Hooray! I hope the extra cost won't discourage the large number of P312* individuals from ordering it.

I agree, but I seriously thought the overhead was going to make the price much more prohibitive. I know you have been waiting a long time, so good luck to you on this one.

Thanks. I will definitely order it, but I expect my chances of a positive result are only about 50/50.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 17, 2012, 02:35:55 PM
Gbrowse says for DF27 "downstream of P312 and parent of Z196 and Z225/Z229"....
Are there any concerns about the stability of DF27 as a unique event?

As I understand it, there were such concerns at one time. Apparently though the problem lies more in the testing than with the stability of DF27. I gather it takes two passes to verify it.
However Rrocca is really the person who should answer this question, as he has been in contact with Thomas K. about it.

The 1KG data had a few inconsistencies, but they had the look of misalignments in a few data samples.

The issues with the amplification were resolved when Thomas developed nested primers for it. Since DF27 needs two passes instead of one, the cost will be $39 instead of $29, which I think is reasonable considering the overhead. It looks like it will be available for testing this week or next.

I commend FTDNA for going the extra step on this SNP. They understand the significance of it and probably stand to make very little money on it.

Hooray! I hope the extra cost won't discourage the large number of P312* individuals from ordering it.

I agree, but I seriously thought the overhead was going to make the price much more prohibitive. I know you have been waiting a long time, so good luck to you on this one.

Thanks. I will definitely order it, but I expect my chances of a positive result are only about 50/50.

Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 17, 2012, 03:00:03 PM

Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.

Is there any mechanism for arriving at a comparable statistic for the Iberian samples?

By the way, this will mean that one may test DF27 upstream, and DF17 downstream, from Z196.  The references to DF17 earlier on this thread (April 14th) were not typos for DF27.

Doesn't the "DF" in those SNP names stand for a now-defunct forum?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Matt Winters on April 17, 2012, 03:36:49 PM
Dick, am I correct in thinking that there is no point in you and I and others who are Z220+ testing either DF27 or 17? We're downstream from both?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 17, 2012, 03:42:04 PM

Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.

Is there any mechanism for arriving at a comparable statistic for the Iberian samples?

By the way, this will mean that one may test DF27 upstream, and DF17 downstream, from Z196.  The references to DF17 earlier on this thread (April 14th) were not typos for DF27.

Doesn't the "DF" in those SNP names stand for a now-defunct forum?

There was one remaining P312*(xDF27) in the Iberian samples.

Sadly, "DF" does stand for the now-defunct forums.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 17, 2012, 05:20:21 PM
Dick, am I correct in thinking that there is no point in you and I and others who are Z220+ testing either DF27 or 17? We're downstream from both?
We're downstream from DF27.  Though I think somebody needs to test it, to hang it on the ISOGG tree (and, in effect, bump both Z196 and Z225 down one level).

I have no idea where DF17 is, on a tree diagram, with respect to all the new Z-SNPs (or L176.2).  The Gbrowse page says "under Z195/Z196."  And so are we all... but where?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 17, 2012, 06:08:20 PM
Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.
How many "Isles" sames of P312* are DF27+ versus DF27- in the samples?

This could be significant indeed if we can't find P312+ DF27- in the Isles but we can in Iberia.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 17, 2012, 06:40:09 PM
Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.
How many "Isles" sames of P312* are DF27+ versus DF27- in the samples?

This could be significant indeed if we can't find P312+ DF27- in the Isles but we can in Iberia.

I was thinking the same but even wider.  It there a geographical pattern for DF27 among old style P312* people in the 1KG samples?  If that has already been looked at then is it not already apparent where P312* (xDF27) is located?   Selfishly from an L21 point of view I am aware that the ancestor of L21 (as well as U152) is some P312* (xDF27) line and I would be curious to see where p312* remains.  DF27 would seem to unite a lot of strands and basically leave P312 world divided into three - DF27, U152 and L21.  In theory the latter 2 could have shared a line for longer than it did with DF27 although it is not certain. 


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 17, 2012, 08:13:50 PM
Dick, am I correct in thinking that there is no point in you and I and others who are Z220+ testing either DF27 or 17? We're downstream from both?
We're downstream from DF27.  Though I think somebody needs to test it, to hang it on the ISOGG tree (and, in effect, bump both Z196 and Z225 down one level).

I have no idea where DF17 is, on a tree diagram, with respect to all the new Z-SNPs (or L176.2).  The Gbrowse page says "under Z195/Z196."  And so are we all... but where?

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 17, 2012, 09:10:05 PM
Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.
How many "Isles" sames of P312* are DF27+ versus DF27- in the samples?

This could be significant indeed if we can't find P312+ DF27- in the Isles but we can in Iberia.

I was thinking the same but even wider.  It there a geographical pattern for DF27 among old style P312* people in the 1KG samples?  If that has already been looked at then is it not already apparent where P312* (xDF27) is located?   Selfishly from an L21 point of view I am aware that the ancestor of L21 (as well as U152) is some P312* (xDF27) line and I would be curious to see where p312* remains.  DF27 would seem to unite a lot of strands and basically leave P312 world divided into three - DF27, U152 and L21.  In theory the latter 2 could have shared a line for longer than it did with DF27 although it is not certain. 

Based on repeat value of 'TATT' at Build 37 position ChrY:23316016, I think that DF27 and U152 might have more in common with each other. L21 and DF19 also seem closer to each other due to this repeat. There was no data at that location for L238, but I would bet it is the same as L21 and DF19.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on April 18, 2012, 02:14:39 PM
Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.
How many "Isles" sames of P312* are DF27+ versus DF27- in the samples?

This could be significant indeed if we can't find P312+ DF27- in the Isles but we can in Iberia.

I was thinking the same but even wider.  It there a geographical pattern for DF27 among old style P312* people in the 1KG samples?  If that has already been looked at then is it not already apparent where P312* (xDF27) is located?   Selfishly from an L21 point of view I am aware that the ancestor of L21 (as well as U152) is some P312* (xDF27) line and I would be curious to see where p312* remains.  DF27 would seem to unite a lot of strands and basically leave P312 world divided into three - DF27, U152 and L21.  In theory the latter 2 could have shared a line for longer than it did with DF27 although it is not certain. 

Based on repeat value of 'TATT' at Build 37 position ChrY:23316016, I think that DF27 and U152 might have more in common with each other. L21 and DF19 also seem closer to each other due to this repeat. There was no data at that location for L238, but I would bet it is the same as L21 and DF19.

Sorry. but I don't quite follow you. What is the significance of ChrY:23316016? Are you suggesting there is an SNP there which might further divide the known subclades of P312?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 18, 2012, 02:19:35 PM
Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.
How many "Isles" sames of P312* are DF27+ versus DF27- in the samples?

This could be significant indeed if we can't find P312+ DF27- in the Isles but we can in Iberia.

I was thinking the same but even wider.  It there a geographical pattern for DF27 among old style P312* people in the 1KG samples?  If that has already been looked at then is it not already apparent where P312* (xDF27) is located?   Selfishly from an L21 point of view I am aware that the ancestor of L21 (as well as U152) is some P312* (xDF27) line and I would be curious to see where p312* remains.  DF27 would seem to unite a lot of strands and basically leave P312 world divided into three - DF27, U152 and L21.  In theory the latter 2 could have shared a line for longer than it did with DF27 although it is not certain. 

Based on repeat value of 'TATT' at Build 37 position ChrY:23316016, I think that DF27 and U152 might have more in common with each other. L21 and DF19 also seem closer to each other due to this repeat. There was no data at that location for L238, but I would bet it is the same as L21 and DF19.

Sorry. but I don't quite follow you. What is the significance of ChrY:23316016? Are you suggesting there is an SNP there which might further divide the known subclades of P312?

It's an STR, and therefore not very reliable, but it could important.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 18, 2012, 04:15:56 PM
Has anyone tried to recruit the following for Z196, Z209 and/or M153 testing?

fE10354   Marmion    R-P312    Germany
f182742   Nigro   R-P312   Italy
f138437   zzzUnkName   R-P312
fN98806   Rivera   zzPredicted   Mexico

I think they are a single cluster but no one has tested for Z196 or downstream?  Rivera was in the Basque project.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 18, 2012, 05:35:50 PM
I also recommend recruiting these guys from the Basque project for Z196, Z209 and possibly M153 testing. The are all 67 STRs so this actually might be a worthy use of the FTDNA project contribution function.

fN39815       Bautista    Juan Bautista de Belaunzarán, b.1702, Guipuzcoa, Spain
f175936       Arrieta    Petro Ezpeleta Arrieta, l.c.late 1500s, Spain (Basque project) 641=null
fN54184       Ostiguy    Jean Ostiguy, b.c.1698, Arganques, France
fN8661       Borquez    Ramon Borquez, b.c.1790, Spain (641=null)

There are some 12, 25 and 37 markers guys that are good suspects, but I recommend them upgrading to 67 markers so you can get a plan for SNP testing.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on April 18, 2012, 07:07:15 PM
Gbrowse says for DF27 "downstream of P312 and parent of Z196 and Z225/Z229"....
Are there any concerns about the stability of DF27 as a unique event?

As I understand it, there were such concerns at one time. Apparently though the problem lies more in the testing than with the stability of DF27. I gather it takes two passes to verify it.
However Rrocca is really the person who should answer this question, as he has been in contact with Thomas K. about it.

The 1KG data had a few inconsistencies, but they had the look of misalignments in a few data samples.

The issues with the amplification were resolved when Thomas developed nested primers for it. Since DF27 needs two passes instead of one, the cost will be $39 instead of $29, which I think is reasonable considering the overhead. It looks like it will be available for testing this week or next.

I commend FTDNA for going the extra step on this SNP. They understand the significance of it and probably stand to make very little money on it.

Hooray! I hope the extra cost won't discourage the large number of P312* individuals from ordering it.

I agree, but I seriously thought the overhead was going to make the price much more prohibitive. I know you have been waiting a long time, so good luck to you on this one.

Thanks. I will definitely order it, but I expect my chances of a positive result are only about 50/50.

Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.

That is encouraging, but if anyone can break the mold, it is me. I am a member of the ultra-rare 'R1b-Martian' cluster.

Have you by any chance analyzed the 1000G CEU subjects for DF27? I would be very interested to learn if they are also DF27 as well.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 18, 2012, 09:41:37 PM
That is encouraging, but if anyone can break the mold, it is me. I am a member of the ultra-rare 'R1b-Martian' cluster.

Have you by any chance analyzed the 1000G CEU subjects for DF27? I would be very interested to learn if they are also DF27 as well.

Of the remaining three non-Z196 CEU samples, two were DF27*, and one had no data at that position.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on April 18, 2012, 11:11:11 PM
That is encouraging, but if anyone can break the mold, it is me. I am a member of the ultra-rare 'R1b-Martian' cluster.

Have you by any chance analyzed the 1000G CEU subjects for DF27? I would be very interested to learn if they are also DF27 as well.

Of the remaining three non-Z196 CEU samples, two were DF27*, and one had no data at that position.


If I understand you correctly, there is only one remaining P312* in the combined 1KG samples from Iberia, GBR and CEU, and he is from Iberia? All those from CEU and GBR, except the one for whom no data is available, were DF27*?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 19, 2012, 11:01:31 AM
That is encouraging, but if anyone can break the mold, it is me. I am a member of the ultra-rare 'R1b-Martian' cluster.

Have you by any chance analyzed the 1000G CEU subjects for DF27? I would be very interested to learn if they are also DF27 as well.

Of the remaining three non-Z196 CEU samples, two were DF27*, and one had no data at that position.


If I understand you correctly, there is only one remaining P312* in the combined 1KG samples from Iberia, GBR and CEU, and he is from Iberia? All those from CEU and GBR, except the one for whom no data is available, were DF27*?

Correct, and you can add two from Tuscany which remain P312*. So, all three remaining P312* samples are from Southern Europe. It's unfortunate we don't have French, Swiss, German, etc. samples to look at.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 11:24:30 AM
Is there any other testing downstream of Z209 that North-South Z209+ guy should do? He is Z278-.

Quote
For me the same result: I am NS-A, Z209+ and Z278-, so what to do next??


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 19, 2012, 11:55:59 AM
Correct, and you can add two from Tuscany which remain P312*.
You are right to do all your tests, but remember what I have always said: from Italy (Tuscany probably above all) to Iberia and from Iberia to the Isles.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 19, 2012, 02:32:42 PM
remember what I have always said: from Italy

Try as I might, I seem unable to forget that.  But it's known as "the Bellman's proof."  (From a poem, about the Hunting of the Snark.)  All in all, I'd rather wait for what the DNA tests say, before considering the debate closed.

@ Mike, Z220 is downstream from Z209, and I have yet to see any NS person test negative for it.  A lot more people have tested Z209+, but that doesn't mean they are Z220-, only that fewer (of the same guys) have yet tested Z220.  Whether Z220 actually defines a subclade of the NS cluster remains to be determined -- I think.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on April 19, 2012, 03:24:33 PM
That is encouraging, but if anyone can break the mold, it is me. I am a member of the ultra-rare 'R1b-Martian' cluster.

Have you by any chance analyzed the 1000G CEU subjects for DF27? I would be very interested to learn if they are also DF27 as well.

Of the remaining three non-Z196 CEU samples, two were DF27*, and one had no data at that position.


If I understand you correctly, there is only one remaining P312* in the combined 1KG samples from Iberia, GBR and CEU, and he is from Iberia? All those from CEU and GBR, except the one for whom no data is available, were DF27*?

Correct, and you can add two from Tuscany which remain P312*. So, all three remaining P312* samples are from Southern Europe. It's unfortunate we don't have French, Swiss, German, etc. samples to look at.

So, U152 is best represented in Central/Alpine Europe, L21 the Atlantic and Isles region and DF27 is essentially everywhere. Would this not suggest that it is the oldest/most diverse branch of P312?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 19, 2012, 03:45:32 PM

Razyn says: “Try as I might, I seem unable to forget that.  But it's known as "the Bellman's proof."  (From a poem, about the Hunting of the Snark.)  All in all, I'd rather wait for what the DNA tests say, before considering the debate closed”.

Razyn, before you Jean Manco tried to say the same against me and Dna-forums died. Beware not to be the killer of this forum you too. I know you don’t like this, but I am not one who says, I carry proofs. Only 51 Tuscans were tested in the 1000 Genomes project and they are pretty all at the origin of their haplogroups. Now Rrocca says that there are also 2 R-P312*, and when I asked him to search amongst them he didn’t reply. 4% are R-L51+, 1 R-U152* and two other very close to the origin. Hg.J has all the most ancient of each subclade (I wrote a thread on this forum about this). 4% of R-M207. Also some T. But you should fund a WTY on Mangino (the Tuscan Mancini from Monticiano) to find the origin of R-M269 from R1b1*. It’s enough? I think so.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 19, 2012, 04:02:51 PM
Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.
How many "Isles" sames of P312* are DF27+ versus DF27- in the samples?

This could be significant indeed if we can't find P312+ DF27- in the Isles but we can in Iberia.

I was thinking the same but even wider.  It there a geographical pattern for DF27 among old style P312* people in the 1KG samples?  If that has already been looked at then is it not already apparent where P312* (xDF27) is located?   Selfishly from an L21 point of view I am aware that the ancestor of L21 (as well as U152) is some P312* (xDF27) line and I would be curious to see where p312* remains.  DF27 would seem to unite a lot of strands and basically leave P312 world divided into three - DF27, U152 and L21.  In theory the latter 2 could have shared a line for longer than it did with DF27 although it is not certain.  

Based on repeat value of 'TATT' at Build 37 position ChrY:23316016, I think that DF27 and U152 might have more in common with each other. L21 and DF19 also seem closer to each other due to this repeat. There was no data at that location for L238, but I would bet it is the same as L21 and DF19.

So are you thinking there were 2 lines of P312* that survived and one of them led to L21 and the other one involved U152 splitting off prior to DF27 SNP?  I can see that could have happened and my speculation of the major split being between DF27 and U152/L21 could be wrong.  I never thought through the possibilities properly!  I now ask myself what the heck is DF19 and L238 as I am having trouble keeping up with the SNPs!    


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 19, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
I found this on DF 19 http://www.semargl.me/ru/dna/ydna/item-snp/368/

Has a northern European feel to it (in the broad sense of north of Alps and Pyrenees) and I am impressed by the level of continental representation given the massive bias towards the British Isles.  Interesting if it is the closest to L21.  Wonder if there is a shared SNP just below P312?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 04:26:33 PM
Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.
How many "Isles" sames of P312* are DF27+ versus DF27- in the samples?

This could be significant indeed if we can't find P312+ DF27- in the Isles but we can in Iberia.

I was thinking the same but even wider.  It there a geographical pattern for DF27 among old style P312* people in the 1KG samples?  If that has already been looked at then is it not already apparent where P312* (xDF27) is located?   Selfishly from an L21 point of view I am aware that the ancestor of L21 (as well as U152) is some P312* (xDF27) line and I would be curious to see where p312* remains.  DF27 would seem to unite a lot of strands and basically leave P312 world divided into three - DF27, U152 and L21.  In theory the latter 2 could have shared a line for longer than it did with DF27 although it is not certain.  

Based on repeat value of 'TATT' at Build 37 position ChrY:23316016, I think that DF27 and U152 might have more in common with each other. L21 and DF19 also seem closer to each other due to this repeat. There was no data at that location for L238, but I would bet it is the same as L21 and DF19.

So are you thinking there were 2 lines of P312* that survived and one of them led to L21 and the other one involved U152 splitting off prior to DF27 SNP?  I can see that could have happened and my speculation of the major split being between DF27 and U152/L21 could be wrong.  I never thought through the possibilities properly!  I now ask myself what the heck is DF19 and L238 as I am having trouble keeping up with the SNPs!    

I've been going through my R-P312+ U152- L21- guys where Z196 is unknown.  It turns out a lot of them, maybe the majority, are 437=14 448<=18 which are two of the key markers for N-S Cluster.   Perhaps I should have noticed earlier - that this was a clue of big, old subclade hidden in P312*... maybe it is Z196 or maybe it is really DF27.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 19, 2012, 04:30:25 PM

Razyn says: “Try as I might, I seem unable to forget that.  But it's known as "the Bellman's proof."  (From a poem, about the Hunting of the Snark.)  All in all, I'd rather wait for what the DNA tests say, before considering the debate closed”.

Razyn, before you Jean Manco tried to say the same against me and Dna-forums died. Beware not to be the killer of this forum you too. I know you don’t like this, but I am not one who says, I carry proofs. Only 51 Tuscans were tested in the 1000 Genomes project and they are pretty all at the origin of their haplogroups. Now Rrocca says that there are also 2 R-P312*, and when I asked him to search amongst them he didn’t reply. 4% are R-L51+, 1 R-U152* and two other very close to the origin. Hg.J has all the most ancient of each subclade (I wrote a thread on this forum about this). 4% of R-M207. Also some T. But you should fund a WTY on Mangino (the Tuscan Mancini from Monticiano) to find the origin of R-M269 from R1b1*. It’s enough? I think so.


I have no idea what you mean by that, but there are only so many hours in the day. What exactly are you looking for outside of the fact that they are P312*?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 19, 2012, 04:31:58 PM
Just to get your spirits up...after taking DF27 into account, there were no P312* left in the 'Great Britain' 1KG samples.
How many "Isles" sames of P312* are DF27+ versus DF27- in the samples?

This could be significant indeed if we can't find P312+ DF27- in the Isles but we can in Iberia.

I was thinking the same but even wider.  It there a geographical pattern for DF27 among old style P312* people in the 1KG samples?  If that has already been looked at then is it not already apparent where P312* (xDF27) is located?   Selfishly from an L21 point of view I am aware that the ancestor of L21 (as well as U152) is some P312* (xDF27) line and I would be curious to see where p312* remains.  DF27 would seem to unite a lot of strands and basically leave P312 world divided into three - DF27, U152 and L21.  In theory the latter 2 could have shared a line for longer than it did with DF27 although it is not certain.  

Based on repeat value of 'TATT' at Build 37 position ChrY:23316016, I think that DF27 and U152 might have more in common with each other. L21 and DF19 also seem closer to each other due to this repeat. There was no data at that location for L238, but I would bet it is the same as L21 and DF19.

So are you thinking there were 2 lines of P312* that survived and one of them led to L21 and the other one involved U152 splitting off prior to DF27 SNP?  I can see that could have happened and my speculation of the major split being between DF27 and U152/L21 could be wrong.  I never thought through the possibilities properly!  I now ask myself what the heck is DF19 and L238 as I am having trouble keeping up with the SNPs!    

I've been going through my R-P312+ U152- L21- guys where Z196 is unknown.  It turns out a lot of them, maybe the majority, are 437=14 448<=18 which are two of the key markers for N-S Cluster.   Perhaps I should have noticed earlier - that this was a clue of big, old subclade hidden in P312*... maybe it is Z196 or maybe it is really DF27.

Mike

Any geographical pattern?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 04:42:43 PM
@ Mike, Z220 is downstream from Z209, and I have yet to see any NS person test negative for it.  A lot more people have tested Z209+, but that doesn't mean they are Z220-, only that fewer (of the same guys) have yet tested Z220.  Whether Z220 actually defines a subclade of the NS cluster remains to be determined -- I think.
If a person is Z196+ L176.2- M153- and don't have any close matches, what order of SNP testing should they do from what's available today?  

I take it go test Z209 and then if positive Z220?  but then what?

If Z209- should they do any further testing?

Where does Z278 fit in?  Is it downstream of Z220? or parallel?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 05:03:20 PM
I'm going to run down the Z209+ and Z220+ testing that I know of.

Of course, an M153+ (the "Basque marker") guy has come up Z209+ so that confirms M153+ is just a subclade of the North-South Cluster.

Here are the Z209+ Z220+ guys I'm aware of:

f195834___ Hulan____________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209/Z220________ z1418*______________ 6UUM5___ UK
fN86315___ Rose_____________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209/Z220________ z1418-NS*___________ 23D7G___ England
f109279___ Van den Vliet____________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209/Z220________ z1418-NS*___________ 7JDMG___ Netherlands
f81973____ Winter___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209/Z220________ z1418-NS-B__________ KT43P___ England, London (? or Norfolk)


Here are the Z209+ Z278+ guys I know of:
 
f27539____ Leyton___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209/Z278________ z1418-NS-C__________ C6EY6___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin


Here are the Z209+ M153- Z220 unknown guys I'm aware of:

f90025____ Vivies___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418*______________ 5G5W9___ France, Aquitane, Midi-Pyrénées, Haute-Garonne, Pouze
fN48992___ Wood_____________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418*______________ H2MVW___ England
f1401_____ Chernik__________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ YHP6P___ Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov
f6324_____ Gjsbertsen_______________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ PMUB5___ Netherlands, Gelderland, Beesd
f193827___ Hjelt(Torku)_____________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ 9XE2U___ Finland, Finland Proper, Turku
fN92079___ Mansilla_________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ CQYU6___ Spain
f51074____ McElyea__________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ CDKZW___ Ireland
fN38446___ Watkins__________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ 7X9ZG___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Wexford
f97920____ Zencker__________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ EP96D___ Czech Republic, Bohemia, Waltersdorf
fE11427___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ ___ Spain
fN16822___ Klaasen__________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-A__________ 6GZHN___ Netherlands, North Brabant, Grave
f76755____ Nilsson(Sjöstorp)________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-A__________ C5QQ7___ Sweden, Skåne län, Malmöhus, Dalby, Sjöstorp
f148469___ Parker___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-A__________ XUQ36___ zzzUnkOrigin
f72190____ Nuccol___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-B__________ 7GE4Q___ England
fN50965___ Trinquier________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-C__________ 5SCVD___ France, Languedoc-Roussillon, Pyrénées-Orientales, Tarerach
f109430___ Larkin___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-E__________ 9NXJJ___ England



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 19, 2012, 05:18:30 PM

If a person is Z196+ L176.2- M153- and don't have any close matches, what order of SNP testing should they do from what's available today

I take it go test Z209 and then if positive Z220?  but then what?

Maybe they should wait for tomorrow, which proverbially never comes, but at FTDNA seems to be only a matter of two to eight months, or so.  The choices that have already been bypassed, when one tests Z209, include Z274 and Z294.  Those would seem to me more logical suspects than something on down the line, toward (as far as we yet know) M153.  For which your hypothetical subject is negative.
 
Quote
If Z209- should they do any further testing?

Other possibilities include Z268 and DF17, but Rich Rocca has suggested they are for the SNP obsessed, and I don't think he meant that in a good way.  I don't understand the "same level" concept well enough to have an opinion.  To me it looks as if testing U152, L21 and DF27 is "same level" testing, and really pretty fundamental.

Quote
Where does Z278 fit in?  Is it downstream of Z220? or parallel?

I think we should have the answer to that, or at least a strong indication of the answer, after Sallaberry's latest battery of tests are reported.  Looks two levels downstream, to me.  It will be a relief to get these things on the ISOGG tree.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 19, 2012, 05:24:34 PM

Here are the Z209+ Z220- guys I know of:

[16 more guys]

According to the FTDNA Gbrowse, only 7 people have tested Z220, and four of us were positive, so at least 13 of these can't be Z220-.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 19, 2012, 05:36:06 PM
I'm going to run down the Z209+ and Z220+ testing that I know of.

Of course, an M153+ (the "Basque marker") guy has come up Z209+ so that confirms M153+ is just a subclade of the North-South Cluster.

Here are the Z209+ Z220+ guys I'm aware of:
[sizept=8]
f195834___ Hulan____________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209/Z220________ z1418*______________ 6UUM5___ UK
fN86315___ Rose_____________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209/Z220________ z1418-NS*___________ 23D7G___ England
f109279___ Van den Vliet____________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209/Z220________ z1418-NS*___________ 7JDMG___ Netherlands
f81973____ Winter___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209/Z220________ z1418-NS-B__________ KT43P___ England, London (? or Norfolk) [/size]


Here are the Z209+ Z278+ guys I know of:
[sizept=8]
f27539____ Leyton___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209/Z278________ z1418-NS-C__________ C6EY6___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin [/size]


Here are the Z209+ Z220- guys I know of:
[sizept=8]
f90025____ Vivies___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418*______________ 5G5W9___ France, Aquitane, Midi-Pyrénées, Haute-Garonne, Pouze
fN48992___ Wood_____________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418*______________ H2MVW___ England
f1401_____ Chernik__________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ YHP6P___ Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov
f6324_____ Gjsbertsen_______________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ PMUB5___ Netherlands, Gelderland, Beesd
f193827___ Hjelt(Torku)_____________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ 9XE2U___ Finland, Finland Proper, Turku
fN92079___ Mansilla_________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ CQYU6___ Spain
f51074____ McElyea__________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ CDKZW___ Ireland
fN38446___ Watkins__________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ 7X9ZG___ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Wexford
f97920____ Zencker__________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ EP96D___ Czech Republic, Bohemia, Waltersdorf
fE11427___ zzzUnkName_______________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS*___________ ___ Spain
fN16822___ Klaasen__________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-A__________ 6GZHN___ Netherlands, North Brabant, Grave
f76755____ Nilsson(Sjöstorp)________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-A__________ C5QQ7___ Sweden, Skåne län, Malmöhus, Dalby, Sjöstorp
f148469___ Parker___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-A__________ XUQ36___ zzzUnkOrigin
f72190____ Nuccol___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-B__________ 7GE4Q___ England
fN50965___ Trinquier________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-C__________ 5SCVD___ France, Languedoc-Roussillon, Pyrénées-Orientales, Tarerach
f109430___ Larkin___________________ R-DF27/Z196/Z209*____________ z1418-NS-E__________ 9NXJJ___ England [/size]



Such an incredible geographical spread.  If I was applying a beaker model to the whole DF 27 uber-group with its amazing spread, the only pottery that is as widespread is the early Maritime beakers which are thinly spread around (with areas of concentration here and there) most of western and west-central Europe.  I tend to think of them as an echo of an early contact or exploration phase.  


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 19, 2012, 05:55:14 PM
Here are the Z209+ Z220- guys I know of:
[16 more guys]
According to the FTDNA Gbrowse, only 7 people have tested Z220, and four of us were positive, so at least 13 of these can't be Z220-.

You are right... and fast.  I was too busy messing around with font sizes while editing the post to fix that.  What I meant for that group was the "Z209+ M153- Z220 unknown" guys.  Z220 "negative" was a mistake. It's fixed in the original post now.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 19, 2012, 06:24:12 PM
Happened to be writing a response to your other post when this one hit.  Anyway, do you know who the three Z220 negatives are, and whether they are NS or something else?  Looks to me as if Z220 may be our "terminal SNP" rather than Z209; but I still don't have a mental image of the STR differences between Type 1 and 2, or ABCDE variants, of the NS cluster.  Nor do I know whether a SNP controls them.  Nor whether they indicate geography, even in some broad outline.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: GoldenHind on April 19, 2012, 07:09:26 PM
 I now ask myself what the heck is DF19 and L238 as I am having trouble keeping up with the SNPs!    

L238 hasn't been mentioned much lately. To refresh your memory, it is an SNP below P312 which defines Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse variety. They are easily identified by their unique STR pattern. It appears to be very common in Norway, but is well represented in Sweden as well. Nordtvedt claims it is also found in Denmark, but none have yet been identified by SNP testing. Two or three from England have tested positive for it, but the last I heard it hasn't yet been found in Scotland.

Because it has a very strong STR pattern, I believe it is comparatively recent, like M222. I also firmly believe there is an unidentified SNP (or more) between P312 and L238.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 19, 2012, 07:53:51 PM
Other possibilities include Z268 and DF17, but Rich Rocca has suggested they are for the SNP obsessed, and I don't think he meant that in a good way.  I don't understand the "same level" concept well enough to have an opinion.  To me it looks as if testing U152, L21 and DF27 is "same level" testing, and really pretty fundamental.

Wow, I must have really explained myself poorly of that's how it came out :)

Z268 and DF17 seem to form the same subclade and seem to be equivalent, much in the same way L11, L52, P310 and P311 all do on the ISOGG tree.

As for 'SNP obsessed', It was not meant as a slight, as I consider myself in that group.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 20, 2012, 01:58:31 AM
4 positive Z220 out of 22 z209 positives is remarkable.
Especiialy if you compare it with the network graphs made by marko heinila.
A subbranche of 12 members contains 3 out of the 4 positive Z220 folks.
It is time that his impressive work gets a closer look.
Hans


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 20, 2012, 04:39:21 AM
I have no idea what you mean by that, but there are only so many hours in the day. What exactly are you looking for outside of the fact that they are P312*?
I wrote to you in private letters on 17 November 2011:
“I appreciated very well your paper on U152 from 1000 Genomes Project, but, if you can, examine the Tuscan R-P312-s, perhaps they have something interesting too”.

Don’t you think that if Tuscans (only 51 tested if I remember well) get 2 R-P312* out of 3 found so far (and other people are tested thousands of times more than Tuscans) has some meaning? Id est that R-P312* may be born in Tuscany or Italy like R1b1* to R-L51*, which I think is demonstrated as the Argiedude’s R-L51 map demonstrated some years ago?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on April 20, 2012, 09:09:51 AM
I wrote to you in private letters on 17 November 2011:
“I appreciated very well your paper on U152 from 1000 Genomes Project, but, if you can, examine the Tuscan R-P312-s, perhaps they have something interesting too”.

Don’t you think that if Tuscans (only 51 tested if I remember well) get 2 R-P312* out of 3 found so far (and other people are tested thousands of times more than Tuscans) has some meaning? Id est that R-P312* may be born in Tuscany or Italy like R1b1* to R-L51*, which I think is demonstrated as the Argiedude’s R-L51 map demonstrated some years ago?

Aside from the fact that these two Tuscany P312* are U152- L21- DF27- DF19- L238-, there is no other information. Unfortunately STR data from 1000 Genomes samples is very unreliable, so we can't even look for common patterns in public databases.

The only thing I can say is that all of the Tuscany samples seem to be closely linked autosomally, and I suspect the samples were gathered in Florence. Now you know everything I know and/or suspect.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 20, 2012, 09:33:52 AM
The only thing I can say is that all of the Tuscany samples seem to be closely linked autosomally, and I suspect the samples were gathered in Florence. Now you know everything I know and/or suspect.
I thank you very much for the information, very interesting for me.
To say that these samples are taken from Florence by the autosome data would need to compare them with other Tuscans, but I think that Tuscans are closely related at autosomal level because they are homogeneous for a mixing lasted for many centuries. For this we are a population taken per se, because, before these last migrations, Tuscans mixed themselves, like Ashkenazim or other people. Then I think that the autosome of Tuscans has this meaning, but more interesting are the Y-s and Mt-s, which demonstrate the more ancient origin of each supplies. Of course the homogeneity could demonstrate from so long we are a closed population.
But the other R-P312? Of course in my disorder I don’t find my previous analyses of the 1000 Genomes Project, but I seem to remember that they were 4. Which SNPs have the other 2 under P312 if they actually were?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: A_Wode on April 20, 2012, 09:55:24 AM


Such an incredible geographical spread.  If I was applying a beaker model to the whole DF 27 uber-group with its amazing spread, the only pottery that is as widespread is the early Maritime beakers which are thinly spread around (with areas of concentration here and there) most of western and west-central Europe.  I tend to think of them as an echo of an early contact or exploration phase.  

A more recent French origin could be explained for a lot of these cases though - at least at the time of the Norman invasion. Many surnames, including mine are Norman age origin. The Ukrainian fellow is part of a diaspora population which likely did not inhabit Ukraine - somewhere further west like France/Spain is far more likely. Many Huguenots also fled to the Netherlands, I wonder if any of these individuals can make such claims? Since our group is so small, but the bulk exist in the same relative region, I expect the origin to be France within the last 2000 years.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: A_Wode on April 20, 2012, 10:03:06 AM
As queer as it sounds, I also feel there is a small chance that our small cluster could be Visigothic, or Scandinavian. Reason being is it's so small, and I cannot explain a thin spread across Scandinavia from 1 guy who may have moved there in the Bronze Age and then returned south during the migration period. It would be funny as this same guy, or perhaps his close cousin would be responsible for the typical "Basque" cluster.

Alternatively, the spread is so thin in Scandinavia, it could be the result of a couple (or one) westerner moving there for work in the middle-ages. I know personally, I am far closer to the typical "Basque" M153 than I am the Z196+ in Scandinavia from a GD perspective.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 20, 2012, 10:44:55 AM
 I now ask myself what the heck is DF19 and L238 as I am having trouble keeping up with the SNPs!    

L238 hasn't been mentioned much lately. To refresh your memory, it is an SNP below P312 which defines Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse variety. They are easily identified by their unique STR pattern. It appears to be very common in Norway, but is well represented in Sweden as well. Nordtvedt claims it is also found in Denmark, but none have yet been identified by SNP testing. Two or three from England have tested positive for it, but the last I heard it hasn't yet been found in Scotland.

Because it has a very strong STR pattern, I believe it is comparatively recent, like M222. I also firmly believe there is an unidentified SNP (or more) between P312 and L238.

DF 19 also seems to be exclusively the northern half of Europe.

Richard R - are you saying the STR pattern suggests L21, DF19 and L238 briefly shared a line that split from the line U152/DF27 was on.  That would be very interesting in terms of the possible origin and early direction of spread of L21.  They all seem very much the northern half of Europe, suggesting L21 either originated there or for some reason predominantly spread in that direction.   I am very interested in this concept that L21 is closer to DF19 and L238 than it is to U152 and DF27.  I would be very interested if Richard or anyone else would comment further on this.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 20, 2012, 06:03:02 PM
We just had a new man of French ancestry join the R-P312, etc., Project, and he is in the N-S cluster. I told him about it and advised him of the likelihood that he is Z196+ and Z209+. I saw just now that he has ordered those two SNPs. Fast response!

The ancestral surname is Gibault, kit B2323.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 21, 2012, 11:04:53 AM

Based on repeat value of 'TATT' at Build 37 position ChrY:23316016, I think that DF27 and U152 might have more in common with each other. L21 and DF19 also seem closer to each other due to this repeat. There was no data at that location for L238, but I would bet it is the same as L21 and DF19.

This STR marker seems to have around 10 repeats.
Do you mean that samples positive for DF27 or U152 share the same allele (repeat values) and other samples that are L21 or D19  another value?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 21, 2012, 11:22:49 AM
Out of 3165 M153 tests 20 were found positive but out of 298 Z196 tests, mainly selected by STR patterns 75 are positive.
This indicates that STR patterns are may not yet exhausted  in the search for SNPs.
I checked the graphs from Marko Heinila for the Z209 samples and found that 16 out of 22 they were all confined to a restricted subbranche (the remaining 6 were not part of his data).
The two Z209 negatives were found neatly on either side in two sister subbranches.
Investigating the corresponding nodes of thes branches will be usefull.
I tried to attach the concerning images; unsuccesfull.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 21, 2012, 01:17:20 PM
Out of 3165 M153 tests 20 were found positive but out of 298 Z196 tests, mainly selected by STR patterns 75 are positive.
This indicates that STR patterns are may not yet exhausted ...
I agree completely.  Z196+ extends beyond N-S cluster (inc. M153) + L176.2 (inc. SRY2627 + L165)

More P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for Z196.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 21, 2012, 08:34:28 PM
Out of 3165 M153 tests 20 were found positive but out of 298 Z196 tests, mainly selected by STR patterns 75 are positive.
This indicates that STR patterns are may not yet exhausted  in the search for SNPs.
I checked the graphs from Marko Heinila for the Z209 samples and found that 16 out of 22 they were all confined to a restricted subbranche (the remaining 6 were not part of his data).
The two Z209 negatives were found neatly on either side in two sister subbranches.
Investigating the corresponding nodes of thes branches will be usefull.
I tried to attach the concerning images; unsuccesfull.


Here is one way.  I'm afraid the mechanism for enlarging them loses a lot of detail to pixellation, but it's all I could think of.  This works much better than the "img" method, anyway.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa140/razyn_photo/z209.jpg

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa140/razyn_photo/z220.jpg

A few days ago Hans (spanjool) also sent me some interesting images of star diagrams based on an earlier run of Fluxus Network software on many of these same Z196 (etc.) haplotypes.  Those were PDF files, and I haven't figured out a way to save them as jpegs, so Photobucket will accept them.  I'm sure it's something bone simple; just not something I've done within living memory (which can be less than a week, at my age).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 22, 2012, 05:13:13 AM
The teaming up of Z196 and Df27 and/or U152 upstream and in a similar way of L21, Df19 can be visualised in the graphs of the Network Analysis of Marko.
This link will show you a circular version in which I pointed out to know SNP locations and as gave an indication concerning the level in relation to P312.


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/74936451/circular%202%20subclades.bmp


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 22, 2012, 05:26:50 AM

Here is one way.  I'm afraid the mechanism for enlarging them loses a lot of detail to pixellation, but it's all I could think of.  This works much better than the "img" method, anyway.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa140/razyn_photo/z209.jpg

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa140/razyn_photo/z220.jpg

A few days ago Hans (spanjool) also sent me some interesting images of star diagrams based on an earlier run of Fluxus Network software on many of these same Z196 (etc.) haplotypes.  Those were PDF files, and I haven't figured out a way to save them as jpegs, so Photobucket will accept them.  I'm sure it's something bone simple; just not something I've done within living memory (which can be less than a week, at my age).


These graphs are based on the Network analysis made by Marko Heinila; he used 18K worldwide collected samples from diverse FTDNA projects. I only colored them to point out specific characteristics. All credits due.
Hans


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 22, 2012, 10:26:11 AM
These graphs are based on the Network analysis made by Marko Heinila

I'm glad that Marko and Hans have in some sense been getting their heads together, although as far as I know that has taken place on a different forum -- and as a footnote to a lively discussion there of the J haplogroup.  I think I'll post a link to that, more or less as a matter of historical interest:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?p=1262#p1262

And I hope we can keep pulling at the tangles in this problem from a variety of angles, without getting too deeply into arguments about the value (or lack of it) of someone else's approach, hypotheses, data set, software, or whatever.  That last Dropbox picture posted by spanjool was very evocative, maybe more like provocative.  A lot to think about.

Probably the current captioning will need some adjustment to fit in DF27, Z225, new SNPs under L176.2, and so on.  I suspect it actually needs to be in 3D, with star bursts at some of the STR-defined nodes rather than binary choices.  But I don't think we can show that sort of picture on a screen, yet (although I don't have an iPad 5, and can't know what's coming in that area).  Anyway, kudos to the technically sophisticated guys who are pushing this envelope for the rest of us.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 22, 2012, 01:00:11 PM
I'm glad that Marko and Hans have in some sense been getting their heads together, although as far as I know that has taken place on a different forum --
Invite them over here! They'd be great additions. Tell them we have bona fide  archaeologists, historians and authors on this forum.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 22, 2012, 05:16:54 PM
I sent Marko a PM, hope he sees it, and joins us.  Hans is already here, posting as "spanjool."


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 22, 2012, 11:57:56 PM
I would call the attention of this forum's readers to the fact that FTDNA now offers a test for one of the new SNPs located below Z196 and above M153.  That SNP is Z209

The first results are coming in today.  Breckenheimer negative, and Winters positive, for Z209.  Winters is also positive for Z220 -- so he's ordering Z216.  And he's tested negative for Z278.

Onward and upward.

My initial feeling was that those Z278+ and below would be more Iberian and those above Z278 would be more non-Iberian. It will be interesting so see if that holds true.

I wondered how far back I'd have to go to find a suitable quotation on which to hang the news (announced to the R-P312 Yahoo group by henrybohemia, several hours ago) that Thos. Krahn has updated his draft tree for the positions around Z196.  Looking at the little colored stars (hover your cursor over them), only three say that there have been changes at this position in the past few days:  Z209, Z220 and Z278.  And all of those were changed two days ago (at this writing).  The shakeup is considerable also for M153, but it doesn't have a star, and technically there hasn't been a change at that position -- except that a few other positions have quietly slipped in above it.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

The ISOGG tree hasn't yet been modified, but the word appears at last to be getting onto the street.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 23, 2012, 06:36:04 AM
Another Marko network analysis.
Only 111 str markers were used.
I colored the Z196 with Dutch orange.
Enjoy.
Hans

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/74936451/circular%20111.bmp


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: chris1 on April 23, 2012, 12:40:56 PM
Another Marko network analysis.
Only 111 str markers were used.
I colored the Z196 with Dutch orange.
Enjoy.
Hans

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/74936451/circular%20111.bmp
Hi Hans, that's a nice chart. What is the lime green P312 group, just above your orange Z196 group on the right? It has no SNP indicated and is represented by one member, 'R1b1a2a1a1b,R-P312 46496 France'. Has their SNP downstream of P312 been discovered yet - or are they still P312*?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 26, 2012, 12:48:03 AM
Another Marko network analysis.
Only 111 str markers were used.
I colored the Z196 with Dutch orange.
Enjoy.
Hans

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/74936451/circular%20111.bmp
Hi Hans, that's a nice chart. What is the lime green P312 group, just above your orange Z196 group on the right? It has no SNP indicated and is represented by one member, 'R1b1a2a1a1b,R-P312 46496 France'. Has their SNP downstream of P312 been discovered yet - or are they still P312*?
Its Mr Carrier from Franche. He is P312*.
You will find him in the P31xL21 file of Mike.
He is predicted to be positive for DF19 as is shown in a graph that I posted in an earlier message. As probably the whole upper lime group will be. This chart was made with 111 str haplotypes. The earlier with 67.
An update is expected end this week.
Hans


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: chris1 on April 26, 2012, 08:11:58 PM
Another Marko network analysis.
Only 111 str markers were used.
I colored the Z196 with Dutch orange.
Enjoy.
Hans

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/74936451/circular%20111.bmp
Hi Hans, that's a nice chart. What is the lime green P312 group, just above your orange Z196 group on the right? It has no SNP indicated and is represented by one member, 'R1b1a2a1a1b,R-P312 46496 France'. Has their SNP downstream of P312 been discovered yet - or are they still P312*?
Its Mr Carrier from Franche. He is P312*.
You will find him in the P31xL21 file of Mike.
He is predicted to be positive for DF19 as is shown in a graph that I posted in an earlier message. As probably the whole upper lime group will be. This chart was made with 111 str haplotypes. The earlier with 67.
An update is expected end this week.
Hans

Thanks! Looking forward to the update.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 29, 2012, 04:11:38 PM
DF17: upstream of Z196? Between Z196 and Z209?

I ask because Kit N3432, who is Z196+ but Z209-, just got a DF17+ result.

Is there a draft tree that shows some of these new SNPs?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Stephen Parrish on April 29, 2012, 05:46:40 PM
DF17: upstream of Z196? Between Z196 and Z209?

I ask because Kit N3432, who is Z196+ but Z209-, just got a DF17+ result.

Is there a draft tree that shows some of these new SNPs?


I do not see DF17 on Thomas Krahn's draft haplotree, nor do I see it on ISOGG's haplotree, which was updated yesterday.

Stephen


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 29, 2012, 05:53:54 PM
DF17: upstream of Z196? Between Z196 and Z209?

I ask because Kit N3432, who is Z196+ but Z209-, just got a DF17+ result.

Is there a draft tree that shows some of these new SNPs?


I do not see DF17 on Thomas Krahn's draft haplotree, nor do I see it on ISOGG's haplotree, which was updated yesterday.

Stephen

I spotted an earlier post in this thread that theorized that DF17 is on the same level as Z209. If so, it is parallel to Z209, because it cannot be equivalent to Z209, since Kit N3432 (ancestral surname Menge) is DF17+ and Z209-.

So, is DF17 another branch off of Z196, or is it between Z196 and Z209? Or where the heck is it on the tree?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on April 29, 2012, 09:52:22 PM
DF17: upstream of Z196? Between Z196 and Z209?

I ask because Kit N3432, who is Z196+ but Z209-, just got a DF17+ result.

Is there a draft tree that shows some of these new SNPs?


I do not see DF17 on Thomas Krahn's draft haplotree, nor do I see it on ISOGG's haplotree, which was updated yesterday.

Stephen

I spotted an earlier post in this thread that theorized that DF17 is on the same level as Z209. If so, it is parallel to Z209, because it cannot be equivalent to Z209, since Kit N3432 (ancestral surname Menge) is DF17+ and Z209-.

So, is DF17 another branch off of Z196, or is it between Z196 and Z209? Or where the heck is it on the tree?

Just as a reminder, the guy whose ancestor is Menge (Kit N3432) used to post as Mattiacorum, and has been using the name Breckenheimer this spring (since DNA-Forums went kaput).  He is now ordering Z268, on spec.  At the moment he's about the most asterisked guy in Z196, but working on it.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: spanjool on April 30, 2012, 04:09:32 PM
DF17: upstream of Z196? Between Z196 and Z209?

I ask because Kit N3432, who is Z196+ but Z209-, just got a DF17+ result.

Is there a draft tree that shows some of these new SNPs?


I do not see DF17 on Thomas Krahn's draft haplotree, nor do I see it on ISOGG's haplotree, which was updated yesterday.

Stephen

I spotted an earlier post in this thread that theorized that DF17 is on the same level as Z209. If so, it is parallel to Z209, because it cannot be equivalent to Z209, since Kit N3432 (ancestral surname Menge) is DF17+ and Z209-.

So, is DF17 another branch off of Z196, or is it between Z196 and Z209? Or where the heck is it on the tree?

Just as a reminder, the guy whose ancestor is Menge (Kit N3432) used to post as Mattiacorum, and has been using the name Breckenheimer this spring (since DNA-Forums went kaput).  He is now ordering Z268, on spec.  At the moment he's about the most asterisked guy in Z196, but working on it.
This is fascinating: Z209 was on the same level as Z268; as was DF17.
But now Menge alias Breckenheimer, alias Breck is DF17+ but Z209-.
I wonder wat will the outcome of the Z268 test for him as I'm Z209+, Z220+ and..Z268+.
Hans


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 30, 2012, 04:58:39 PM
Does anyone have any info on this?  Am I just behind the times?  An L165 guy told me they found an L165 guy from Iberia... which would be a first.  EthnoAncestry has called L165 a Norse marker because it is found in Scandinavia and also in some northern Scottish Isles with people thought to be of Norse heritage. 

Anyway, if L165 is found in Iberia in any significance that could be important. L165 is a brother of SRY2627 underneath of L176.2 and Z196.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on April 30, 2012, 05:23:40 PM
Does anyone have any info on this?  Am I just behind the times?  An L165 guy told me they found an L165 guy from Iberia... which would be a first.  EthnoAncestry has called L165 a Norse marker because it is found in Scandinavia and also in some northern Scottish Isles with people thought to be of Norse heritage. 

Anyway, if L165 is found in Iberia in any significance that could be important. L165 is a brother of SRY2627 underneath of L176.2 and Z196.

I think I know of the guy your mentioning.. I've seen him post elsewhere claiming that the L165 mutation arose in Iberia.. I'm guessing he was assuming that since SRY2627 is supposed to be Iberian, that L165 being younger, also arose from there. I've not heard anything about an L165 sample coming from there.. as you say, this would be big news, but I think he is just presuming it must have come from there due to M167.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on April 30, 2012, 07:01:50 PM
I'm still wondering where all the Scandinavian L165 guys are. I know of one.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on May 08, 2012, 03:45:51 PM
I've been looking for an excuse to bump this thread forward, since Marko Heinila has appeared among us.  And it didn't take much of a wait:  Roman Scholz (E8202) has just informed the Yahoo R-P312 project that his WTY discovered a new SNP under DF27 (but not under Z196), L1231.  That has been added to Thos. Krahn's draft tree within the past day.  Roman also mentioned that DF27 itself is now available for a la carte SNP testing at FTDNA, @ $39 (as we had previously been warned -- because the test has to be run twice).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 08, 2012, 03:58:47 PM
I've been looking for an excuse to bump this thread forward, since Marko Heinila has appeared among us.  And it didn't take much of a wait:  Roman Scholz (E8202) has just informed the Yahoo R-P312 project that his WTY discovered a new SNP under DF27 (but not under Z196), L1231.  That has been added to Thos. Krahn's draft tree within the past day.  Roman also mentioned that DF27 itself is now available for a la carte SNP testing at FTDNA, @ $39 (as we had previously been warned -- because the test has to be run twice).

This has probably been the best work FTDNA has done in getting a very difficult SNP available to the end consumer in a way that is outside their normal business model. Good luck to all those P312* out there.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on May 08, 2012, 04:00:06 PM
I've been looking for an excuse to bump this thread forward, since Marko Heinila has appeared among us.  And it didn't take much of a wait:  Roman Scholz (E8202) has just informed the Yahoo R-P312 project that his WTY discovered a new SNP under DF27 (but not under Z196), L1231.  That has been added to Thos. Krahn's draft tree within the past day.  Roman also mentioned that DF27 itself is now available for a la carte SNP testing at FTDNA, @ $39 (as we had previously been warned -- because the test has to be run twice).

And our super-group continues to grow! Soon the U152's and L21's will know the feeling of being the "other" group of P312 :)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on May 08, 2012, 07:10:36 PM
Our M153 guy, Sallaberry, kit 85359, has tested Z214+, Z216+, and Z278+. Z220 is still pending.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: breckenheimer on May 13, 2012, 07:07:29 PM

I spotted an earlier post in this thread that theorized that DF17 is on the same level as Z209. If so, it is parallel to Z209, because it cannot be equivalent to Z209, since Kit N3432 (ancestral surname Menge) is DF17+ and Z209-.

So, is DF17 another branch off of Z196, or is it between Z196 and Z209? Or where the heck is it on the tree?

DF17 was reported as being equivalent to Z268.  Thomas Krahn today confirmed that WTY run for a Z196 person and an L21 were both negative for it.  Since I share one off-modal STR value with the NS cluster, DYS448=18, and being Z196+, DF17+ and Z209-, it seems to imply that DF17 is "slightly" upstream from Z209.  So it is likely that Z209 and Z220 people would also likely be positive for it if tested.

Meanwhile, my Z268 test is still pending...

> Update: It turns out that DF17 is actually parallel to Z209 and Z268






Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on May 15, 2012, 10:04:56 AM
Roman Scholz (E8202) has just informed the Yahoo R-P312 project that his WTY discovered a new SNP under DF27 (but not under Z196), L1231.  That has been added to Thos. Krahn's draft tree within the past day.

I don't think anybody has specifically pointed out the major shakeup in this limb of the R1b tree, now that DF27 is on it and some of the newly tested downstream SNPs have been slotted in above M153.  Check it out.  Hover your cursor over the little stars, some of these SNPs weren't on the tree until 25 days or 8 days ago.  Others that have been on it for years have been shifted about.  And there are several more changes waiting in the wings.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

These revisions haven't yet affected the ISOGG tree, last updated 4/28/12 with no changes in the immediate vicinity of Z196.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 15, 2012, 03:09:34 PM
Roman Scholz (E8202) has just informed the Yahoo R-P312 project that his WTY discovered a new SNP under DF27 (but not under Z196), L1231.  That has been added to Thos. Krahn's draft tree within the past day.

I don't think anybody has specifically pointed out the major shakeup in this limb of the R1b tree, now that DF27 is on it and some of the newly tested downstream SNPs have been slotted in above M153.  Check it out.  Hover your cursor over the little stars, some of these SNPs weren't on the tree until 25 days or 8 days ago.  Others that have been on it for years have been shifted about.  And there are several more changes waiting in the wings.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

These revisions haven't yet affected the ISOGG tree, last updated 4/28/12 with no changes in the immediate vicinity of Z196.

Would DF27 being the biggest immediately downstream of P312 clade?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 15, 2012, 06:20:19 PM
Roman Scholz (E8202) has just informed the Yahoo R-P312 project that his WTY discovered a new SNP under DF27 (but not under Z196), L1231.  That has been added to Thos. Krahn's draft tree within the past day.

I don't think anybody has specifically pointed out the major shakeup in this limb of the R1b tree, now that DF27 is on it and some of the newly tested downstream SNPs have been slotted in above M153.  Check it out.  Hover your cursor over the little stars, some of these SNPs weren't on the tree until 25 days or 8 days ago.  Others that have been on it for years have been shifted about.  And there are several more changes waiting in the wings.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

These revisions haven't yet affected the ISOGG tree, last updated 4/28/12 with no changes in the immediate vicinity of Z196.

Would DF27 being the biggest immediately downstream of P312 clade?

DF27 would be old. It has to be since it is older than Z196.  It would be big, but I don't know if it is bigger than U152 or L21.  Our DNA project testing is so biased to the Isles that I don't know if those frequencies mean much for the rest of Eurasia. 


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 15, 2012, 06:38:24 PM
I have posted in the Haplotype_Data_R-P312xL21 spreadsheet an update that has covered a large number of FTDNA projects.

I'm counting 48 Z209+ people now, including the M153+ folks, of which I count 23.

Including all of the downstream subclades of Z196 (SRY2627, etc.), I get 458 in total.   327 have 67 STRs or more. Of those, 60 have 111 STRs.  People can start doing some serious TMRCA calculations now with Ken's 111T spreadsheet on all of these long haplotypes.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: gogogenes on May 22, 2012, 01:12:34 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (Z196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit #, changed L176.2 to Z196


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 22, 2012, 01:25:24 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 22, 2012, 01:32:31 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

Congratulations!

It looks like my 1000 Genomes Project observations are holding true...so far 4 of 5 previously P312* kits have come back DF27+. All kits seem to have British Isles ancestry. That should be encouraging for those still on the fence about testing for DF27.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: gogogenes on May 22, 2012, 01:33:56 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.
Agreed, with my STR's not being close to anyone I would think that just about any P312* could turn out to be DF27+.

The closest cluster to me are the so called rox2 guys so I hope that they all test for this SNP.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Bruce Trinque on May 22, 2012, 01:38:14 PM
I am new to this forum, but have been getting data from FTDNA for some time (Kit N50965).  I am positive for P312, Z196, Z209, Z220, and Z216, but negative for M153 and L176.2.  I have just ordered tests for Z278 and Z214.  Oh, and an upgrade to 111 STR markers.  Any suggestions regarding other paths to pursue?

And for the N-S Cluster business, I meet both the 3 and 8 site count critera which I have found posted on the Internet.

My paternal ancestry traces back to the eastern Pyrenees in southernmost France in the late 17th century.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on May 22, 2012, 02:09:22 PM
Has anybody yet tested Z209+ but Z220-?  I haven't seen any evidence, newer than Rich's chart (from last summer), that one is older than the other.  Many more people have tested Z209, but haven't gone on past that (or have skipped Z220).  As far as I have yet seen, the phylogenetic definition of Z220+ is "a Z209 person who has spent another $29."  Would be happy to have that impression corrected.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on May 22, 2012, 08:38:48 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: gogogenes on May 22, 2012, 09:14:56 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
Good job.  I see kit #155150 Butler from the New World: British Isles Surnames section is also DF27 and Kit #E8202 Scholz from the Eastern European section had a previous a DF27+ result (WTY?).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: breckenheimer on May 22, 2012, 09:29:31 PM
Dick, am I correct in thinking that there is no point in you and I and others who are Z220+ testing either DF27 or 17? We're downstream from both?
We're downstream from DF27.  Though I think somebody needs to test it, to hang it on the ISOGG tree (and, in effect, bump both Z196 and Z225 down one level).

I have no idea where DF17 is, on a tree diagram, with respect to all the new Z-SNPs (or L176.2).  The Gbrowse page says "under Z195/Z196."  And so are we all... but where?

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                 |
                                 +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268


*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 23, 2012, 08:31:03 AM
Dick, am I correct in thinking that there is no point in you and I and others who are Z220+ testing either DF27 or 17? We're downstream from both?
We're downstream from DF27.  Though I think somebody needs to test it, to hang it on the ISOGG tree (and, in effect, bump both Z196 and Z225 down one level).

I have no idea where DF17 is, on a tree diagram, with respect to all the new Z-SNPs (or L176.2).  The Gbrowse page says "under Z195/Z196."  And so are we all... but where?

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                 |
                                 +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268

*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

Has anyone of of the following tested for DF17 in WTY or by advanced order? L176.2+, SRY2627+ or L165+?    From what I see, we don't know if DF17 is upstream of L176.2 or not.   Am I missing anything?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 23, 2012, 09:05:36 AM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

It looks like the FTDNA P312 project now has 8 of 9 previously P312(xZ196) kits as DF27+

They are: H1763, 155150, 98943, N17543, N2642, 90959, 201722, 16848

Kit 16848 (Zambrano) looks to be of Spanish ancestry.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 23, 2012, 01:45:31 PM
Dick, am I correct in thinking that there is no point in you and I and others who are Z220+ testing either DF27 or 17? We're downstream from both?
We're downstream from DF27.  Though I think somebody needs to test it, to hang it on the ISOGG tree (and, in effect, bump both Z196 and Z225 down one level).

I have no idea where DF17 is, on a tree diagram, with respect to all the new Z-SNPs (or L176.2).  The Gbrowse page says "under Z195/Z196."  And so are we all... but where?

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                 |
                                 +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268

*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

Has anyone of of the following tested for DF17 in WTY or by advanced order? L176.2+, SRY2627+ or L165+?    From what I see, we don't know if DF17 is upstream of L176.2 or not.   Am I missing anything?

I have a variety of Z196 probable folks that I label z1518 for the STR signature:
448<=18 19=15 390=23

I see fN3432 Menge fits into z1518-A and of course he is DF17+.  These guys are prime candidates for DF17 testing to see how widespread it is.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Bruce Trinque on May 23, 2012, 01:45:56 PM
Am I correct in understanding that a previous result of Z196+ would automatically mean DF27+ as well?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 23, 2012, 02:09:11 PM
Am I correct in understanding that a previous result of Z196+ would automatically mean DF27+ as well?
Yes, I believe it has now been proven that Z196 is downstream of DF27.

Does anyone have any different information?

If you are Z196+ or SRY2627+ or Z209+ or M153+ or L176.2+ or L165+ there is no need to teset for DF27.  You are DF27+ by default of the phylogenetic tree structure.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: realdealt on May 23, 2012, 02:53:34 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

It looks like the FTDNA P312 project now has 8 of 9 previously P312(xZ196) kits as DF27+

They are: H1763, 155150, 98943, N17543, N2642, 90959, 201722, 16848

Kit 16848 (Zambrano) looks to be of Spanish ancestry.


Wow!!!! ...fast results from FTDNA.
Kit 16848 (Zambrano) is indeed of Iberian origin.....because this kit would be ME!
.....no longer R-P312*
.....now what?

Robert Tarín


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 23, 2012, 03:09:20 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

It looks like the FTDNA P312 project now has 8 of 9 previously P312(xZ196) kits as DF27+

They are: H1763, 155150, 98943, N17543, N2642, 90959, 201722, 16848

Kit 16848 (Zambrano) looks to be of Spanish ancestry.


Wow!!!! ...fast results from FTDNA.
Kit 16848 (Zambrano) is indeed of Iberian origin.....because this kit would be ME!
.....no longer R-P312*
.....now what?

Robert Tarín

Yippeee!   Congratulations.

I just was just referred to another DF27 guy, in the Scottish project.  He is in the Rox2 cluster.  This is a pretty good sized group.  DF27 is growing with leaps and bounds.  Richard R and the anonymous researcher hit this one correctly, for sure.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: realdealt on May 23, 2012, 03:44:39 PM
Anyone done any calculations on the age of the DF27 subclade yet?



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: breckenheimer on May 23, 2012, 07:17:01 PM

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                |
                                +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268

*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

Has anyone of of the following tested for DF17 in WTY or by advanced order? L176.2+, SRY2627+ or L165+?    From what I see, we don't know if DF17 is upstream of L176.2 or not.   Am I missing anything?

Rich Rocca had indicated that DF17 was on the same level as Z209 based upon research from 2000 Genomes, and the recent tests for DF17 have partially confirmed, but I don't believe anyone who is L176.2+ has tested for DF17, which if they are DF17-, would fully confirm the placement on FTDNA testing as well.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on May 23, 2012, 07:49:07 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
Good job.  I see kit #155150 Butler from the New World: British Isles Surnames section is also DF27 and Kit #E8202 Scholz from the Eastern European section had a previous a DF27+ result (WTY?).

Scholz has no DF27 result listed on his Haplotree page.

There are now eight men in the R-DF27 category.

I haven't seen a DF27- result yet, although I could have missed somebody.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on May 23, 2012, 08:09:53 PM
I haven't seen a DF27- result yet, although I could have missed somebody.

Kit no. 51865 and there is also a result in WTY for kit no.93184 who's in the Macgregor project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/macgregor/default.aspx?section=ysnp (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/macgregor/default.aspx?section=ysnp)

both Scottish ancestry which I thought interesting but I haven’t been through the SNPs they've tested for properly to see if they could be on a known DF27 neg branch.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: chris1 on May 26, 2012, 07:15:30 AM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196

You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

It looks like the FTDNA P312 project now has 8 of 9 previously P312(xZ196) kits as DF27+

They are: H1763, 155150, 98943, N17543, N2642, 90959, 201722, 16848

Kit 16848 (Zambrano) looks to be of Spanish ancestry.

Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on May 26, 2012, 10:18:31 AM


Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?


That's an excellent question.

I also want to ask where Z278 belongs on the Z196 tree.

I don't see it here (http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on May 26, 2012, 10:37:45 AM

Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?

Okay, I just went through the R-P312 and Subclades Project list of people who have tested for DF27.

I can't find any guys who are L238+, DF19+, or L617+ who have actually tested for DF27 yet.

Your post did inspire me to create an R-L617 category on our Y-DNA Results pages, however. Interestingly, both L617+ guys have ancestry in Cambridgeshire in England.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: chris1 on May 26, 2012, 11:06:11 AM

Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?

Okay, I just went through the R-P312 and Subclades Project list of people who have tested for DF27.

I can't find any guys who are L238+, DF19+, or L617+ who have actually tested for DF27 yet.

Your post did inspire me to create an R-L617 category on our Y-DNA Results pages, however. Interestingly, both L617+ guys have ancestry in Cambridgeshire in England.

Thanks. I was wondering about a possible connection as some Rox2 had tested negative for Z196, L238, DF19 and L617 but a Rox2 member has just tested DF27+. I had a feeling (as did goldenhind, I think) that there might be an undiscovered, older SNP, upstream of those subclades, ie. their ancestor. Now DF27 has come along and it seems quite old..


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 26, 2012, 03:48:44 PM


Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?


That's an excellent question.

I also want to ask where Z278 belongs on the Z196 tree.

I don't see it here (http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png).

Z278 is "rs1469371" in the graphic. DF27 is its own separate branch from L238 and  DF19.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on May 27, 2012, 07:34:08 AM


Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?


That's an excellent question.

I also want to ask where Z278 belongs on the Z196 tree.

I don't see it here (http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png).

Z278 is "rs1469371" in the graphic. DF27 is its own separate branch from L238 and  DF19.

Thanks, Rich.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: palamede on May 27, 2012, 04:28:01 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196
L196 is R1b1a2a1a1b3c2 downstream of U152 and L2, I suppose you want to say "Z196" downstream of P312 and DF27 and brother to Z225 .


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 27, 2012, 08:14:57 PM


Sorry if I've missed it but is the DF27 status of the P312 subclades, L238, DF19 and L617 known?


That's an excellent question.

I also want to ask where Z278 belongs on the Z196 tree.

I don't see it here (http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Draft_P312_Tree_v005.png).

Z278 is "rs1469371" in the graphic. DF27 is its own separate branch from L238 and  DF19.

We need to get this validated in the FTDNA system so we can get DF27 formally positioned.  Have any L238's or DF19's participated in WTY?  Has anyone ordered DF27? We only need one per subclade.


Title: Positive for Z278 and Z214
Post by: Bruce Trinque on May 30, 2012, 06:26:42 PM
I just got results back today showing me positive for Z278 and Z214 (previous tests were positive for Z209, Z220, and Z216, but negative for M153).  Apparently my ancestral line split off just before the Basques acquired M153.  Instead my family drifted a bit east and ended up in the northern fringe of Catalonia, in the French foothills of the eastern Pyrenees.

Any suggestions for any additional useful SNP testing?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: gogogenes on May 31, 2012, 01:40:13 PM
Results in today: DF27+.  I have gone from R-P312* to R-DF27*! (L196-, Z225-). Kit #98943

Edit: Added kit # and changed L176.2 to L196



You should be one of a number of DF27* folks to show up.  Hopefully, the P312* crowd knows about this.

There are three DF27+ thus far today, all with y-dna ancestry in England.

They can be seen in the new R-DF27 category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
Good job.  I see kit #155150 Butler from the New World: British Isles Surnames section is also DF27 and Kit #E8202 Scholz from the Eastern European section had a previous a DF27+ result (WTY?).

Scholz has no DF27 result listed on his Haplotree page.

There are now eight men in the R-DF27 category.

I haven't seen a DF27- result yet, although I could have missed somebody.

As per conversations in the Yahoo group, the DF27+ result for Scholz was in his WTY results which is why it does not show on his haplotree page.  I think that since he is a member of the R-P312 Project that he could be included in the DF27 section of the project page.

Additionally, he had another mutation labelled L1231 which at least two DF27+ group members have ordered just in case it is not a private marker.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on May 31, 2012, 07:10:09 PM
I am sorry, but I am not going to get into the business of keeping track of WTY results that don't show up on a member's Haplotree page. All the new SNPs without support from either the YCC tree or the ISOGG tree are enough of an administrative nightmare for me.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: breckenheimer on May 31, 2012, 11:06:28 PM

I have a variety of Z196 probable folks that I label z1518 for the STR signature:
448<=18 19=15 390=23

I see fN3432 Menge fits into z1518-A and of course he is DF17+.  These guys are prime candidates for DF17 testing to see how widespread it is.

Some DF17 news:  Today Mulvihill (kit N1993) of Irish patrilineage tested positive for DF17.  He shares a number of off-modal STR values with Menge/Männchen (me) which you pointed out.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 01, 2012, 07:59:32 AM
As per conversations in the Yahoo group, the DF27+ result for Scholz was in his WTY results which is why it does not show on his haplotree page.  I think that since he is a member of the R-P312 Project that he could be included in the DF27 section of the project page.

Additionally, he had another mutation labelled L1231 which at least two DF27+ group members have ordered just in case it is not a private marker.

I try to track this in the P312xL21 spreadsheet in the P312 Yahoo group, but this can only be a manual process so it is important to post any such requests on the P312 Yahoo group.

If SNPs end up being private or there is no testing for them, I generally discard tracking them (at that point.)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 01, 2012, 09:24:32 AM
14 of 16 (87.5%) of previously P312* have tested DF27+.

Rough mental "guestimate": the remaining P312* will probably be something in the neighborhood of 5% even in places like Iberia.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: breckenheimer on June 12, 2012, 07:28:15 PM

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                 |
                                 +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268

*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

Has anyone of of the following tested for DF17 in WTY or by advanced order? L176.2+, SRY2627+ or L165+?    From what I see, we don't know if DF17 is upstream of L176.2 or not.   Am I missing anything?

There are now results for DF17 from FTDNA which indicate it's postition on the tree relative to available SNPs.

86995  Pleis------------DF17-, L176.2*
109279 van den Vliet---DF17-, Z209+
N1993 Mulvihill---------DF17+, Z196*, Z209-
N3432 Menge----------DF17+, Z196*, Z209-, Z268-, L176.2-


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on June 13, 2012, 07:26:17 AM

DF17 is at the same level as Z209 and Z268.

Today an interesting result, DF17-, came in for van den Vliet who is Z209+ and Z268+.   Also I, who am Z196+ , L176.2-,  Z209- and DF17+, received my Z268- result.  This seems to show that DF17 has the following position:


Z196 -------> Z294* --+------> DF17
                                 |
                                 +------> Z209, --------> Z220--------> Z278 -------->M153
                                              Z268

*Z294 is not offered by FTDNA

Has anyone of of the following tested for DF17 in WTY or by advanced order? L176.2+, SRY2627+ or L165+?    From what I see, we don't know if DF17 is upstream of L176.2 or not.   Am I missing anything?

There are now results for DF17 from FTDNA which indicate its position on the tree relative to available SNPs.

86995  Pleis------------DF17-, L176.2*
109279 van den Vliet---DF17-, Z209+
N1993 Mulvihill---------DF17+, Z196*, Z209-
N3432 Menge----------DF17+, Z196*, Z209-, Z268-, L176.2-

Also, apparently Thomas Krahn just added DF17 to his draft tree, yesterday:

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813460

The little star for DF17 appears one day younger than the other new ones.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 15, 2012, 10:52:34 AM
A new DF27+ result from the FTDNA Italy project:

Kit no. N104559, Antonio Petrone b. 1795, Acri Cosenza, Italy

Tested DF27+, L165-, L176.2-, M153-, SRY2627-

Family lore has his family coming from Genoa.

Since he only has 12 markers, I recommended he upgrade to 67 and test for Z196. I have also asked that he join the P312 project.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 15, 2012, 03:12:06 PM
In case you are following the R1b Ysearch modals thread, I just added a Ysearch record for DF27. This is for all of DF27 and is 96 STRs.  The Yearch record is 53ZBP.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 15, 2012, 03:49:22 PM
A new DF27+ result from the FTDNA Italy project:

Kit no. N104559, Antonio Petrone b. 1795, Acri Cosenza, Italy

Tested DF27+, L165-, L176.2-, M153-, SRY2627-  

What do you think about these R1b1a2 predicted folks in the Italy project?

48391    Henry Lanata, New Orleans
77953    Alessandro Causa, b.c. 1830, Liguria, Italy
150400      
N15326    Bartolomeo Bacigalupo, 1773, Piandeipreti, Genoa
132155      
195634    Carlo Nevi, d.c. 1866
N11925    Pietro Carbone, Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Italy

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy,Italy/default.aspx?section=yresults

They all are 437=14 448<=18. A couple of them are H4=10 as well. If they were P312+ and in my Haplotype_Data_P312xL21 spreadsheet, I would place them in either variety dz-1418* or dz-1418-NS*.  Basically, North-South cluster guys.  They might even be Z209+.

If these guys were all DF27** that ought to make Maliclavelli happy.

If these guys comes out as Z209+, now that would be something too.   Makes you wonder about the North-south Cluster - Scandinavia, England, Germany, France, Iberia, Italy.  I wonder where the TMRCA is going to fall out?

The DF27/Z196 advocates might consider starting a fund to get these guys tested.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on June 15, 2012, 04:08:22 PM
The DF27/Z196 advocates might consider starting a fund to get these guys tested.

I don't think we have a fund because we don't have a project, and that decision was made by FTDNA nearly a year ago.  They didn't want any new haplogroup projects; one sensed that was because they were getting too much flak from the ones they already had.  Anyway, I'm not currently unhappy in the P312 project.

Also there are many ways I'd rather spend my money than making Maliciavelli happy, but that's entirely beside the point.

Btw I just tried your new DF27 modal, works fine, but only at 67 markers.  Do I have to manually enter the rest of them up to 96?  Seems to me the upgrade from 37 to 67 was more or less automatically posted to Ysearch.  But several other things about Ysearch were malfunctioning, earlier in the spring.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on June 15, 2012, 05:22:51 PM
If these guys were all DF27** that ought to make Maliclavelli happy.
I am very busy with my work, but I follow how I can what is happening re. Genetics. My son (my theory) is walking by his feet.
I‘d want only you note that all these surnames are from Liguria (Grotta delle Arene Candide, Agriculturalists by sea to Iberia 7500YBP, Ligurian, Lusitanian, Celt Languages, BB, etc.).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 15, 2012, 07:58:44 PM
The DF27/Z196 advocates might consider starting a fund to get these guys tested.

I don't think we have a fund because we don't have a project, and that decision was made by FTDNA nearly a year ago.  They didn't want any new haplogroup projects; one sensed that was because they were getting too much flak from the ones they already had.  Anyway, I'm not currently unhappy in the P312 project.

Also there are many ways I'd rather spend my money than making Maliciavelli happy, but that's entirely beside the point.

Btw I just tried your new DF27 modal, works fine, but only at 67 markers.  Do I have to manually enter the rest of them up to 96?  Seems to me the upgrade from 37 to 67 was more or less automatically posted to Ysearch.  But several other things about Ysearch were malfunctioning, earlier in the spring.

The Italy project fund is at $0, so if you want to throw some funds our way to test these Italian samples for DF27, I'm all ears :)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on June 15, 2012, 08:17:58 PM
The DF27/Z196 advocates might consider starting a fund to get these guys tested.

I don't think we have a fund because we don't have a project, and that decision was made by FTDNA nearly a year ago.  They didn't want any new haplogroup projects; one sensed that was because they were getting too much flak from the ones they already had.  Anyway, I'm not currently unhappy in the P312 project.

Also there are many ways I'd rather spend my money than making Maliciavelli happy, but that's entirely beside the point.

Btw I just tried your new DF27 modal, works fine, but only at 67 markers.  Do I have to manually enter the rest of them up to 96?  Seems to me the upgrade from 37 to 67 was more or less automatically posted to Ysearch.  But several other things about Ysearch were malfunctioning, earlier in the spring.

The Italy project fund is at $0, so if you want to throw some funds our way to test these Italian samples for DF27, I'm all ears :)

Sounds like a good idea.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 15, 2012, 09:50:39 PM
The DF27/Z196 advocates might consider starting a fund to get these guys tested.

I don't think we have a fund because we don't have a project, and that decision was made by FTDNA nearly a year ago.  They didn't want any new haplogroup projects; one sensed that was because they were getting too much flak from the ones they already had.  Anyway, I'm not currently unhappy in the P312 project.

Also there are many ways I'd rather spend my money than making Maliciavelli happy, but that's entirely beside the point.

Btw I just tried your new DF27 modal, works fine, but only at 67 markers.  Do I have to manually enter the rest of them up to 96?  Seems to me the upgrade from 37 to 67 was more or less automatically posted to Ysearch.  But several other things about Ysearch were malfunctioning, earlier in the spring.

The Italy project fund is at $0, so if you want to throw some funds our way to test these Italian samples for DF27, I'm all ears :)

Sounds like a good idea.

There you go.  Italy is a critical location.  The great Cardial Ware Neolithic advance drove through Italy on the way to Iberia.  Somehow, R1b got to Iberia. If it came via the Mediterranean we should see some evidence of this in Italy so the more we know about R1b in Italy, the better.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on June 15, 2012, 09:54:57 PM
I wish we could get the money together to test all of the predicted R1b1a2 members of the following projects for the major R-L11 SNPs: the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project, the French Heritage DNA Project, the Italy DNA Project, the German Language Area DNA project, etc.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 16, 2012, 07:15:40 AM
Thanks to the generous person who left the $100 donation!!! Please send me a PM so we can discuss which kits are best to test.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on June 17, 2012, 04:26:47 AM
Thanks to the generous person who left the $100 donation!!! Please send me a PM so we can discuss which kits are best to test.
RRocca, of those 100$ I’d spend a little part for DeLucia, who could be DF27-:

35429 Antonio DeLucia R1b1a2a1a1b R-P312 L11+, L21-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-
35429 Antonio DeLucia Italy R1b1a2a1a1b
13 24 14 11 11-17 12 12 13 12 13 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 38-38 12 12    

None on YHRD, but one American of the Lakes Region, possibly of Italian origin, with DYS385=11-16, and, amongst other haplotypes linked, this from Modena, Etruscan region with many R-L23 like mine:

1 14 12 28 24 11 13 13 12,16 12 12 15 19 15 18 23 11 >>
1 of 130 Modena, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 18, 2012, 03:43:28 PM
Since the donation was made in order to find DF27+ folks, there look to be pretty good bets and also have the important geographical information that is of use to us:

77953 Alessandro Causa, b.c. 1830, Liguria, Italy
N15326 Bartolomeo Bacigalupo, 1773, Piandeipreti, Genoa
N11925 Pietro Carbone, Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Italy
182742 Antonio Nigro abt. 1854, Potenza Province, Italy

Let me know if you think these are good candidates.

The other question is: do I have them tested for DF27? Z196? Z209?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on June 18, 2012, 05:35:30 PM
I think that to find a R-P312+/DF27- would be more interesting, but, being DF27- so rare, probably also DeLucia will be DF27+, anyway it would be worth to test him.
All the other Italians, above all those from Ligurian extraction, merit to be tested.

About Bacigalupo someone let you already note that he is P312-.

Of course the SNPs should be tested beginning from the upstream one.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Diana on June 18, 2012, 05:42:05 PM
Hi there, is this something I should test for? Thank you.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on June 18, 2012, 05:45:41 PM
Hi there, is this something I should test for? Thank you.
Not, of course. You have already found your final (so far) SNPs (Z144/Z145/Z146+ ).


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Diana on June 18, 2012, 05:55:00 PM
Okay, thank you.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on June 18, 2012, 06:27:54 PM
About Bacigalupo someone let you already note that he is P312-.

Gioiello: since you are an actual Italian, as distinguished from the Brooklyn-paisan types I play music with, it may come as a surprise that this surname is a sort of joke in the USA.  Or anyway, it once was, and I'm old enough to remember it.  There's actually a pretty complex story about it:

http://roccosmusicamusica.blogspot.com/2011/06/of-baciagalou-baciagaloop-and.html


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Maliclavelli on June 19, 2012, 12:47:55 AM
Gioiello: since you are an actual Italian, as distinguished from the Brooklyn-paisan types I play music with, it may come as a surprise that this surname is a sort of joke in the USA.  Or anyway, it once was, and I'm old enough to remember it.  There's actually a pretty complex story about it:
http://roccosmusicamusica.blogspot.com/2011/06/of-baciagalou-baciagaloop-and.html
I thank you for this interesting link. I could remember the Bacigalupo of the great Turin (soccer team) who died at Superga on 4 May 1949 in a plane accident: Bacigalupo Ballarin Maroso…
But to know how interesting is this surname and typically Ligurian, this is what is written in “Origine dei cognomi italiani”:

Baccigalupi è genovese, Baccigaluppi, estremamente raro è ligure, Bacigalupi rarissimo sembrerebbe dello spezzino, Bacigaluppi, assolutamente rarissimo, è specifico di Camporosso (IM), Bacigaluppo è praticamente unico, tracce di queste cognominizzazioni le troviamo a Ventimiglia (IM) nel 1700 con il prelato monsignor Antonio Maria Bacigaluppi.
integrazioni fornite da Fabio Paolucci
Tipico cognome ligure, è una variante del più diffuso Bacigalupo, particolarmente presente nei comuni di Genova, Chiavari e Lavagna. Altre forme cognominali derivate, sempre liguri ma riscontrabili anche in altre regioni per migrazioni avvenute in passato, sono Bacigalupi e Baccigalupo. Il cognome è di difficile interpretazione: deriva da una frase composta dal verbo, sicuramente dialettale ligure, baciga, terza persona singolare di bacigare unito al termine lupo. Più interpretazioni etimologiche possono assere avanzate per la spiegazione del significato del verbo bacigare: la prima ipotesi considera il termine francese bac, che significa letteralmente traghetto, battello; bacigare potrebbe derivare dalla acquisizione del vocabolo francese con italianizzazione in senso dialettale e trasformazione nel verbo bac-igar. Il cognome potrebbe essere originato dal soprannome attribuito ad un uomo che traghettava i lupi o il lupo, forse connotazione dispregiativa di un predone che costituiva una minaccia proveniente dal mare. Altra tesi, forse più plausibile, prende in esame i termini greci bactereùo o bactreùa (bastone, verga) e bactaricrousa (picchio col bastone), nonchè il vocabolo latino baculum (bastone, verga) ed il suo diminutivo bacillum (bastone, verga usata dai littori; quindi usata da chi esercitava un potere), da cui potrebbe derivare in dialetto ligure arcaico bacigo nel senso di picchio con il bastone. Considerando il fatto che il bastone della tradizione latina, il bacillum, era quello adoperato da un uomo che esercitava il potere, si può sostenere che il cognome Bacigalupo sia nato nei secoli scorsi come soprannome assegnato in maniera canzonatoria ad un personaggio che era solito coraggiosamante colpire i lupi con la sua verga probabilmente per allontanarli dalla sua abitazione o dalle sue bestie se era un pastore; probabile anche che fosse un lavoratore di pelli di lupo allo scopo di produrre capi di abbigliamento.  Tra i Bacigalupo vanno ricordati alcuni personaggi illustri: Nicolò (1837 - 1904), tesoriere del comune di Genova e poeta di nota fama, il colonnello Bacigalupo, cui toccò l'onore di scortare, con uno scelto drappello di truppe a cavallo, gli ospiti francesi (fra cui Giuseppina Bonaparte) lungo la strada della Bocchetta negli anni della Repubblica Ligure (1797 - 1799); negli stessi anni del colonnello un tale Paolo Bacigalupo fu autore di una sommossa a Chiavari.
integrazioni e stemma forniti da Alessandro Bacigalupo
Nello stemma dei Bacigaluppo c'è un lupo che tiene le quattro zampe su un piatto da bilancia che in genovese si dice bansiga. Si potrebbe ipotizzare una derivazione dal mestiere di commerciante di pellame.
integrazioni fornite da Alberto Bacigalupi
Bacigalupi è cognome originario esclusivamente di una frazione del comune di Rezzoaglio, in Val d'Aveto - entroterra di Chiavari (Liguria provincia di Genova, Levante). Non è originario dello spezzino dove nasce circa verso il 1900 per il trasferimento di emigranti che in attesa di imbarco per le Americhe trovano lavoro all'Arsenale di La Spezia e lì si fermano.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on July 05, 2012, 01:01:10 PM
Figured I'd resurrect this old thread..

I was doing some of the old school genealogy work on my Isaacs family and discovered that they had alot of dealings with the Lindsay/Lindsey family of Frederick.. Infact, the land that was purchased by Mdka Samuel Isaeck sr. was apart of the greater land plot owned by the Lindsay family..

Anyways, the reason I'm telling you all this, is that this particular Lindsay family is Z196* positive.. They seem to be Anglo-Scottish in origin.. though if one reads further back Clan Lindsay seems to be of Anglo-Saxon derivation in Lincolnshire if I'm not mistaken..

From Wikipedia.. "Although certainly ancient, there remains debate to this day as to whether Clan Lindsay first arose from British, Saxon, Norman or Flemish family lines. While there is a long tradition of descent from Normans who arrived with William the Conqueror, the matter is complicated by evidence of a Saxon "Kingdom of Lindsay" that long predated the coming of the Normans."

Didn't know if anyone was aware of this family grouping of Z196*. Which is particularly interesting for me and my Isaeck grouping of SRY2627.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: A_Wode on July 05, 2012, 11:06:58 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Castlebob on July 06, 2012, 01:09:03 AM
I researched a number of Lincolnshire familes as part of my Border studies. Many of the clans of the Borders were of Flemish stock. Gilbert de Ghent, 1st Earl of Lincoln, was a Fleming. His third son was Walter of Folkingham, Lincs. In 1124, Walter accompanied David, Earl of Huntingdon, when he went north to claim the Scottish throne. Walter settled at Earlston, Tweeddale & it seems that he established the surname Lindsay in homage to his Lincs roots.
Parts of Lincs were known as 'The Kingdom of Lindsey'. The only differences between Walter's name & the old Anglo-Saxon territory was the use of the letter 'a' instead of 'e'. The Lindsays were often Lord Chamberlains of Scotland during the 13th - 14th Cs.  One served Robert the Bruce. The Bruce's were probably Flemings who moved to the Cotentin. The Bruce coat of arms is identical to the Bruges 'Blue Lion'.
Beryle Platts makes a good case for the following being Flemish in origin:
Douglas, Hamilton, Hay, Murray, Rutherford & Graham.
I believe the Augustinian Priories in the Scottish Borders were a major link: Wool exports saw Roxburgh exporting directly to Flanders in the 13th C. David I & other monarchs encouraged Flemings into his realm.
Cheers
Bob
PS There was also a Breton presence in Lincs, adjacent to the Flemish families. I also researched a number of links between the Cotentin Peninsula, Normandy leading to Lincs, then on to Cumbria.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2012, 08:02:29 AM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

If you know of any who can trace their ancestry to Normandy or the Channel Islands, encourage them to join the Normandy Y-DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults). Thus far, the only Z196+ person we have is a single R-L176.2 whose ancestor came from Trinite-du-Mont.

Keep in mind, though, that to join the Normandy Y-DNA Project, one has to actually be able to trace his y-dna ancestry to Normandy or the Channel Islands.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 06, 2012, 05:51:46 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on July 06, 2012, 06:36:03 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on July 06, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

Spanish Monks ?   ;)


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 06, 2012, 06:50:30 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

I don't know about that.  We have DF27/Z196 in Northern Europe. Z196 is no more diverse in England than U106 so we don't have a great reason to say Z196 got there first.

We just think U106 arrived late with the Anglo-Saxons. That very well could be, but i don't see why some other haplogroups wouldn't have come along side like I1, and R1a1 .... and .. and Z196.  

I'm not saying Z196 was a majority group nor that some Z196 couldn't have gotten there earlier than Anglo-Saxons but I don't know whey they couldn't have been included...   if they are of higher frequency in S/SE England that other parts of the Isles.  I don't really know that. Is that certain?

We need more of these P312 U152- L21- guys to test for DF27 and then Z196, etc.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on July 06, 2012, 06:51:29 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

Spanish Monks ?   ;)

Just like their cousins, the "Randy Irish Monks"?!


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on July 06, 2012, 06:55:11 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

I don't know about that.  We have DF27/Z196 in Northern Europe. Z196 is no more diverse in England than U106 so we don't have a great reason to say Z196 go there first.

We just think U106 arrived late with the Anglo-Saxons. That very well could be, but i don't see why some other haplogroups wouldn't have come along side like I1, and R1a1 .... and .. and Z196.  

I'm not saying Z196 was a majority group nor that some Z196 couldn't have gotten there earlier than Anglo-Saxons but I don't know whey they couldn't have been included...   if they are of higher frequency in S/SE England that other parts of the Isles.

We need more of these P312 U152- L21- guys to test for DF27 and then Z196, etc.

Well, anytime I or anyone else has ever suggested that DF27 had a Northern European element to it, we are usually and often immediately reminded of the Iberian frequencies.. So you'll understand that I'm a little hesitant to mention that possibility.

I was mostly referring to DF27* not Z196 with regards to being old in the Isles..


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on July 06, 2012, 07:13:10 PM

Well, anytime I or anyone else has ever suggested that DF27 had a Northern European element to it, we are usually and often immediately reminded of the Iberian frequencies.. So you'll understand that I'm a little hesitant to mention that possibility.

I was mostly referring to DF27* not Z196 with regards to being old in the Isles..

Any idea what the stats are on DF27+ v DF27- ? Judging by Ymap P312** look to be a tad more common than L21** but I've not been following the results as closely


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 07, 2012, 01:03:28 AM

Well, anytime I or anyone else has ever suggested that DF27 had a Northern European element to it, we are usually and often immediately reminded of the Iberian frequencies.. So you'll understand that I'm a little hesitant to mention that possibility.

I was mostly referring to DF27* not Z196 with regards to being old in the Isles..
If had my druthers, I'd like to see all P312* test for DF27 and all L21 test for DF13.  Then we'd really know something about their patterns.

Any idea what the stats are on DF27+ v DF27- ? Judging by Ymap P312** look to be a tad more common than L21** but I've not been following the results as closely

If had my way all P312* would test for DF27 and all L21* would test for DF13. Then we'd really see what the pattern is.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Castlebob on July 07, 2012, 04:18:45 AM
I gather that there are 6 or 7 of us who are as follows:

L21-  L176.2-  Z196-  DF27-  DF19-  L238-

I'm as above, and am expecting my DF19 score soon. One of my suname (Armstrong) who I match quite closely to has already tested L238-.

Of interest to me is that Armstrong, MacFarlane, Williams, Jones & Hatton are some of the surnames as described above. (Hatton hasn't tested for L238 yet, but I'm told he will likely be negative). The first two are found in Kingdom of Strathclyde/Kingdom of Rheged Brythonic Celt territory, with Jones & Williams being associated heavily within Wales. Hatton could also have arisen in those regions, too.

Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Jdean on July 07, 2012, 09:41:24 AM

Well, anytime I or anyone else has ever suggested that DF27 had a Northern European element to it, we are usually and often immediately reminded of the Iberian frequencies.. So you'll understand that I'm a little hesitant to mention that possibility.

I was mostly referring to DF27* not Z196 with regards to being old in the Isles..
If had my druthers, I'd like to see all P312* test for DF27 and all L21 test for DF13.  Then we'd really know something about their patterns.

Any idea what the stats are on DF27+ v DF27- ? Judging by Ymap P312** look to be a tad more common than L21** but I've not been following the results as closely

If had my way all P312* would test for DF27 and all L21* would test for DF13. Then we'd really see what the pattern is.

I'd add U106* via Z381 & Z18 to that list.

I wish U106 and P312 * folk were as enthusiastic towards SNP testing as L21.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on July 08, 2012, 12:22:15 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

I don't know about that.  We have DF27/Z196 in Northern Europe. Z196 is no more diverse in England than U106 so we don't have a great reason to say Z196 got there first.

We just think U106 arrived late with the Anglo-Saxons. That very well could be, but i don't see why some other haplogroups wouldn't have come along side like I1, and R1a1 .... and .. and Z196.  

I'm not saying Z196 was a majority group nor that some Z196 couldn't have gotten there earlier than Anglo-Saxons but I don't know whey they couldn't have been included...   if they are of higher frequency in S/SE England that other parts of the Isles.  I don't really know that. Is that certain?

We need more of these P312 U152- L21- guys to test for DF27 and then Z196, etc.

Heres something interesting.. As I mentioned a few post back I have been studying my Isaack family history and it seems a new possibility has arisen..

Another researcher has recently discovered an Isaack family from Norfolk, England while going through Baptism/Christening records for the 1538-1970 time period.. A Samuel Isaack is found to have been baptised in 1674, his Father John Isaack in 1625 and his Father.. Magnes Isaack's marriage record of 1620.. Its my families current belief that Samuel was born in 1685, but this is an educated guess.

This John Isaack apparently remarried and his son Samuel, whom I'm assuming may be my ancestor, was born of that marriage. If this turns out to be true and my knowledge of Scandinavian forenames is correct, I'm assuming Magnes is an altered spelling of Magnus, then it appears my family may have been Norse in origins. Another interesting factor to add to this is the world surname profiler.. if you type in "Isaack" you will see that the region with the highest occurance of that spelling is South Jutland, Denmark. I'm guessing the surname was at one point Isaackssen or something similar.

http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/Main.aspx

Factor in the recent discovery of SRY2627 in Denmark and Southern Sweden from the old Norway study and this theory isn't that far from the realm of possibility.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Castlebob on July 08, 2012, 02:20:06 PM
You might  consider looking into land reclamation as a reason for many coming to Norfolk, Sam. I know that many Jacobite prisoners were sent to Norfolk to build waterways that drained the Fens. Also, many experts from Lowland countries helped with the work. I believe parts of Denmark were reclaimed, so perhaps your ancestors were amongst them?
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on July 08, 2012, 05:11:42 PM
You might  consider looking into land recalmation as a reason for many coming to Norfolk, Sam. I know that many Jacobite prisoners were sent to Norfolk to build waterways that drained the Fens. Also, many experts from Lowland countries helped with the work. I believe parts of Denmark were reclaimed, so perhaps your ancestors were amongst them?
Cheers,
Bob

Thanks, Bob, for the suggestion! I'm a bit wet behind the ears with regards to this type of background research. Up until yesterday I had accepted the family as being Scottish/Ulster-Scots.. Obviously nothing has been proven yet, but this is a stronger case than the one I was going with. No one else that I'm aware of is claiming descent from this family.. I'm nearly positive that my ancestor, Samuel, was an indentured servant or a criminal.. as I've seen lists for Maryland, which include a Samuel Isaack from Norfolk if I'm not mistaken. These were for English people and in my ignorance, I ignored these because they weren't saying Scotland.

Live and learn!

 


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Castlebob on July 08, 2012, 11:46:00 PM
The Duke of Bedford used Scottish prisoners to help develop the Fens & build waterways in Norfolk Sam. Do you know the religion of your earliest ancestor? He may have been a Covenanter.Some stayed in East Anglia following their release.
As you know, the Highland & Border clearances saw Scots heading to Ulster & beyond. Many going/getting sent to N America.
Another big cause of prisoner movement followed the Battle of Worcester. Some Royalist prisoners were transported to America.
Apologies if you have all that, but there's usually a major reason for people moving from one part of the country to another - & definitely when going overseas!
Cheers,
Bob
PS I used to have a list of Scottish prisoners somewhere. I'll see if I can find it


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Castlebob on July 14, 2012, 12:06:24 AM
Just confirming that my DF19 result is in, and it's negative. A core group of my surname is L238-, so no need for me to test that.
Any recommendations for further testing? I'm L21- L176.2-  Z196-  DF27-  DF19-
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Castlebob on July 17, 2012, 05:31:15 AM
I've just ordered two tests: Z245 & L459. I'd guess negative for both.
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 30, 2012, 06:02:25 PM
L165 (S68) was originally called a "Norse" subclade by the old EthnoAncestry group because of its ties between Scandinavian and the north of Scotland and a particular surname there.
http://www.myheritage.com/dna-surname-project/R-L165

L165 is a brother to SRY2627 underneath of L176.2, which is a descedant of Z196.

L165 could be quite old, and I now have come to the conclusion it is.

These three L165+ folks are had to cluster with any of the others. I use a fairly lenient GD method and I have each of these guys at no closer than a GD of 18 to each other or any other member of L165.

f170048   Brownson England
f156064   Cardoza Spain
f226939   Lewis zzCountry

Any thoughts?

Cardoza is also Ysearch G3MTK and I see there the origin is listed as London, so I don't know what to think of that.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: rms2 on July 30, 2012, 06:35:04 PM
I have yet to see more than one Scandinavian who is L165+. I know we talked about this before, and Dr. Jim Wilson's name and his opinion came up, but I am still wondering where all the Scandinavian L165s are.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on July 30, 2012, 06:43:40 PM
L165 (S68) was originally called a "Norse" subclade by the old EthnoAncestry group because of its ties between Scandinavian and the north of Scotland and a particular surname there.
http://www.myheritage.com/dna-surname-project/R-L165

L165 is a brother to SRY2627 underneath of L176.2, which is a descedant of Z196.

L165 could be quite old, and I now have come to the conclusion it is.

These three L165+ folks are had to cluster with any of the others. I use a fairly lenient GD method and I have each of these guys at no closer than a GD of 18 to each other or any other member of L165.

f170048   Brownson England
f156064   Cardoza Spain
f226939   Lewis zzCountry

Any thoughts?

Cardoza is also Ysearch G3MTK and I see there the origin is listed as London, so I don't know what to think of that.

I still find it funny that everyone thought it may have been a "Norse" marker up until it was discovered to sit so close to the "Iberian" marker, SRY2627.

I often wonder if SRY2627 had first been discovered amongst a few of the British or rather Scottish and Scandinavian samples, if we wouldn't be calling it a similar name.. Celtic, Norse.. whatever.

It seems now we have a Spanish sample.. and of course this means that L165 is officially Iberian. It is a bit odd that he would list his surname and ancestry to England.. whenever his Paternal surname seems to be Cardoza.. Maybe he was told that his marker was indicative of Norse ancestry and Carr was the closest thing to Cardoza?

To tell you the truth, I'm surprised its taken this long for a Spanish L165 to pop up. Given SRY2627's wide range, I just never really accepted L165 as a soley Nordic marker. Especially if it is only slightly younger than SRY2627.. this of course brings up old memories of SRY2627 and the effort and subsequent discovery via variance runs that the L176.2 family probably arose in France. I think thats the safest designation for this group.. A good central launch point for the spread we see today.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: razyn on July 30, 2012, 09:04:43 PM
I use a fairly lenient GD method and I have each of these guys at no closer than a GD of 18 to each other or any other member of L165.

I see those three (maybe everybody in the spreadsheet) have 67 markers tested.  Is that the normal sort of GD, off by 18 or more at 67 -- or is it something else, extra lenient?

I'm interested in getting some kind of date for Z220, and also for my little cluster of L484 under Z220.  We now have at least one representative of each of the four identified family groups showing in group Pabd of the FTDNA "R-P312 and Subclades" project; but the haplotypes are of many different lengths, and it's hard to compare a GD of 9 at 37 with a GD of 16 at 67, or 33 at 95, or whatever.  (This is in Ysearch, but doesn't have to be.)

Also, I don't understand why the Modal for every subclade adjusts to itself.  Seems to me it would be more helpful to keep the modal of the parent branch for its several subclades.  The colorized results lose their distinctive coloration, if every level down gets its own new modal.  I like to use PEMD5 for comparisons in Ysearch -- and would like to see some similar standard model in the regular R-P312 and Subclades project.  Would that require overriding some default setting in the site software?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: NealtheRed on July 30, 2012, 10:06:13 PM
I have yet to see more than one Scandinavian who is L165+. I know we talked about this before, and Dr. Jim Wilson's name and his opinion came up, but I am still wondering where all the Scandinavian L165s are.

I know the Clan MacLeod DNA Project has done some considerable research in L165, since the "core" related group appears to be L165+. The clan's base was within areas known for Norse settlement: the Isle of Lewis and Isle of Skye are at least two with strong MacLeod affiliations.

They also claim descent from Olaf the Black, but who knows how accurate all this stuff is: http://www.clanmacleod.org/about-macleods.html.


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: ArmandoR1b on July 30, 2012, 11:33:31 PM
L165 (S68) was originally called a "Norse" subclade by the old EthnoAncestry group because of its ties between Scandinavian and the north of Scotland and a particular surname there.
http://www.myheritage.com/dna-surname-project/R-L165

L165 is a brother to SRY2627 underneath of L176.2, which is a descedant of Z196.

L165 could be quite old, and I now have come to the conclusion it is.

These three L165+ folks are had to cluster with any of the others. I use a fairly lenient GD method and I have each of these guys at no closer than a GD of 18 to each other or any other member of L165.

f170048   Brownson England
f156064   Cardoza Spain
f226939   Lewis zzCountry

Any thoughts?

Cardoza is also Ysearch G3MTK and I see there the origin is listed as London, so I don't know what to think of that.

I looked up Ysearch G3MTK and it mentions the names Abraham Nunes Cardoza and Isaac Nunes Cardoso. In Spanish naming convention the first surname is the paternal surname and the second is the maternal surname. However there are also compound surnames that can be transmitted through the male line and that is what it looks like happened since I have found many references to the Nunes Cardoso line. The spelling is irrelevent, Nunes and Nuñez are the same and Cardoso/Cardozo/Cardoza/Cardozo are the same.
Now on to the genealogy. Most of what exists online about the Nuñez Cardoso family refers to Spanish Sephardic origins and how some of them moved to England and then the U.S. Since Jewish heritage is matrilineal they were allowed to marry non Jews and still be considered Jewish. This would explain how there are Jews with Franco-Spanish Y-DNA and it also explains Cardoza Ysearch G3MTK origin listed as London.

There is an interesting article on the (Nuñez) Cardoza family at http://www.scribd.com/doc/22508994/Cardoza-Family-History


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 31, 2012, 12:29:24 AM
I have yet to see more than one Scandinavian who is L165+. I know we talked about this before, and Dr. Jim Wilson's name and his opinion came up, but I am still wondering where all the Scandinavian L165s are.

I know the Clan MacLeod DNA Project has done some considerable research in L165, since the "core" related group appears to be L165+. The clan's base was within areas known for Norse settlement: the Isle of Lewis and Isle of Skye are at least two with strong MacLeod affiliations.

They also claim descent from Olaf the Black, but who knows how accurate all this stuff is: http://www.clanmacleod.org/about-macleods.html.

There are a good number of people from England in this L165 group to go with one from Germany and one from Sweden. The main surnames from England are Terrill and Ayton..  however, the grouop is  clearly dominated by people from the north of Scotland, particularly along the Hebrides.... the main surnames are MacLeod, MacNeil, MacDonald and Bell/Beall.

For the most part, they are conspicuously missing from Ireland so they must have been out of the way from the main the Ulster/Strathclyde interchanges.

The guy in Sweden is a GD of 15 to the rest, at his closest peer so I think he could easily be separated from the rest by 1500-2200 years.

There is no one from much of any location south other possibly this Cordoza from Spain or London.



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: NealtheRed on July 31, 2012, 10:21:09 AM
I have yet to see more than one Scandinavian who is L165+. I know we talked about this before, and Dr. Jim Wilson's name and his opinion came up, but I am still wondering where all the Scandinavian L165s are.

I know the Clan MacLeod DNA Project has done some considerable research in L165, since the "core" related group appears to be L165+. The clan's base was within areas known for Norse settlement: the Isle of Lewis and Isle of Skye are at least two with strong MacLeod affiliations.

They also claim descent from Olaf the Black, but who knows how accurate all this stuff is: http://www.clanmacleod.org/about-macleods.html.

There are a good number of people from England in this L165 group to go with one from Germany and one from Sweden. The main surnames from England are Terrill and Ayton..  however, the grouop is  clearly dominated by people from the north of Scotland, particularly along the Hebrides.... the main surnames are MacLeod, MacNeil, MacDonald and Bell/Beall.

For the most part, they are conspicuously missing from Ireland so they must have been out of the way from the main the Ulster/Strathclyde interchanges.

The guy in Sweden is a GD of 15 to the rest, at his closest peer so I think he could easily be separated from the rest by 1500-2200 years.

There is no one from much of any location south other possibly this Cordoza from Spain or London.



Dr. Wilson must have access to more Scandinavian L165 haplotypes, at least that is how I think he comes to such a hypothesis about it. It is fairly localized to those Hebridean clans (which makes sense considering Western Isles history), and as you said, some folks in England and on the Continent.

The Spanish one is definitely a treat. How old is L165?


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Arch Y. on July 31, 2012, 04:18:53 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

We are glad that you are seeing the errors of your ways and we will not condemn you to heresy.

Thank you,
"The Iberian Inquisition Institute"



Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: Arch Y. on July 31, 2012, 04:20:39 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

Spanish Monks ?   ;)

Now that's funny! :-)

Arch


Title: Re: Z196 and the history of P312
Post by: samIsaack on July 31, 2012, 09:57:36 PM
I'm also of the belief that a good number of Normans that came with William were Z196* (my own surname included). This might also account for the high number in England vs Ireland for example.

What are the odds the higher frequency in England is due to Anglo-Saxons?

I'd say they're pretty low.. DF27/Z196 has been in the Isles for a very long time.. Probably arriving with the L21 horde. Infact, I wouldn't be too surprised if DF27 didn't represent the oldest strain of P312 in the Isles.

Of course many will regard that as blasphemy, because we all know that DF27 is completly and totally Iberian and only recently made its way from there.

We are glad that you are seeing the errors of your ways and we will not condemn you to heresy.

Thank you,
"The Iberian Inquisition Institute"



I missed you too, Arch..