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Title: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on April 17, 2011, 06:36:08 PM
We have discussed this before, but now I am wondering what the latest info is. I know the last word was that France has the oldest L21 haplotypes.

What I am wondering now is whether anyone has compared the L21 variance of the Continent as a whole versus the British Isles and Ireland as a whole.

How does that work out?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 17, 2011, 07:04:16 PM
We have discussed this before, but now I am wondering what the latest info is. I know the last word was that France has the oldest L21 haplotypes.

What I am wondering now is whether anyone has compared the L21 variance of the Continent as a whole versus the British Isles and Ireland as a whole.
I consider Ireland a British Isle. These are confirmed L21* 67 length haplotypes only.

Core Continent x Scan x Iberia_:  Var=0.96 @50  (N=67)   

Continent & Scan & Iberia______:  Var=0.91 @50  (N=104)   

British Isles__________________:  Var=0.90 @50  (N=818)


"Var" is variance for the 50 non-multi-copy/non-null STR's out of the first 67 and is expressed as % of P312 "all" variance.

M222 is not included.  If you include M222, the British Isles variance decreases.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: NealtheRed on April 17, 2011, 09:06:17 PM
Thanks for this, Mike.

This coincides with what we know about L21's older age on the Continent. I am inclined to think that L21 could have arisen further east of France or Germany, however.

I know that I am jumping the gun saying that, but some of these Eastern European finds are interesting, especially ones that do not match any Brits (or anybody else) closely.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: GoldenHind on April 18, 2011, 07:50:27 PM
Thanks for this, Mike.

This coincides with what we know about L21's older age on the Continent. I am inclined to think that L21 could have arisen further east of France or Germany, however.

I know that I am jumping the gun saying that, but some of these Eastern European finds are interesting, especially ones that do not match any Brits (or anybody else) closely.

I am in agreement that an origin east of France and Germany should not be ruled out at this point.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 27, 2011, 04:18:54 PM
We have discussed this before, but now I am wondering what the latest info is. I know the last word was that France has the oldest L21 haplotypes.

What I am wondering now is whether anyone has compared the L21 variance of the Continent as a whole versus the British Isles and Ireland as a whole.
I consider Ireland a British Isle. These are confirmed L21* 67 length haplotypes only.

Core Continent x Scan x Iberia_:  Var=0.96 @50  (N=67)   
Continent & Scan & Iberia______:  Var=0.91 @50  (N=104)   
British Isles__________________:  Var=0.90 @50  (N=818)


"Var" is variance for the 50 non-multi-copy/non-null STR's out of the first 67 and is expressed as % of P312 "all" variance.
M222 is not included.  If you include M222, the British Isles variance decreases.

I more or less just "wondering out loud" but felt like I had to re-iterate what I'm seeing.
I've been going through as many major FTDNA projects as I can looking for new L21 folks as well as, now, L21 "predicted".

In my "predicted" cateogories, I'm looking for 67 ht length R1b1b2 people who fit  1030-Scots (Scots 24, Scots 22 and Little Scots), Irish TII (South Irish), Irish TIII (L226/Dalcassian), Irish Sea/Leinster(L159.2), Irish TIV, Wales I and 11-13 Combo.

Occasionally I find someone who "kind of fits" from France or Germany, but generally the core continent has "unclusterable" people.  This is an indicator of diversity/age.

However, what really astounds me is that whenever I run across someone who "fits" the clusters I mention above AND they have an outlier STR or two (like 2 from WAMH or whatever rather than 1) those people always seem to be from England.  We call these groups "Irish this" or "Irish that" but it kind of seems like no one is really from Ireland.  I guess in a truly ancient sense, that has to be true.  

Nevertheless, perhaps we should think of the Irish of L21+ types as just the "Goidels of Ancient Britain".


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: MHammers on April 27, 2011, 05:26:34 PM
Mike,

Is there any thing in your research that shows an Anglo-Saxon period/Germanic L21 signature?  Surely some must have trickled in from the continent later than the Bronze and Iron ages.  

I suppose some of them could be these unclustered and off-modal types in the Isles.  Still just from looking at the Yahoo L21 data most Isles and colonial types have shorter genetic distances with the Scandinavians and Germanics (including Dutch members) on average.  France and Spain are usually more distant to them.  This would suggest that even for Bronze and/or Iron age movements L21 mostly came from the lower Rhine and north German plain rather than Armorica or Brittany.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 27, 2011, 06:11:12 PM
Mike,

Is there any thing in your research that shows an Anglo-Saxon period/Germanic L21 signature?  Surely some must have trickled in from the continent later than the Bronze and Iron ages.  

I suppose some of them could be these unclustered and off-modal types in the Isles.  Still just from looking at the Yahoo L21 data most Isles and colonial types have shorter genetic distances with the Scandinavians and Germanics (including Dutch members) on average.  France and Spain are usually more distant to them.  This would suggest that even for Bronze and/or Iron age movements L21 mostly came from the lower Rhine and north German plain rather than Armorica or Brittany.

Problem with that idea is that it seems that the Lower Rhine doesnt have much L21.  Certainly both the L21 project and Myres seems to indicate a big fall off in L21 once we pass as far east as Belgium.  If today's populations of Belgium and Holland represent the Belgae, I dont think there was very much L21 in that population at all.  The lack of L21 in Belgic Gaul has been apparent for a long time.  It seems to me L21 is much more likely to have been distributed  very much as seen on the project map even back 2000 years ago


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on April 27, 2011, 07:35:47 PM
Of course, one of the problems we have is the silly Brabant project isn't testing Belgians for L21. If they were, we would know more about the level of L21, if any, in Belgium.

We always seem to get the short end of the stick, just like in that Ramos study of French R1b, which failed to test either P312 or L21.

Then Myres did a piss-poor job with its sampling, almost like they were hunting for pockets of U152 and U106.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: MHammers on April 27, 2011, 07:39:55 PM
I was thinking in terms of genetic distance, otherwise I agree.  The French L21, though more numerous, don't really show a more recent connection to the Isles members like some of the Scandinavians, Germans, and Dutch on average.  Admittedly I've only looked at a relative handful of the total, but if the French members are closer I haven't seen it.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 28, 2011, 10:03:30 AM
overall though it seems that L21 is most significant from the Seine to perhaps the Garrone, (basically the western half of north and central France) and has a modest but significant presence ias we progress through central France towards the Rhineland and the Alps.  I get the impression that the link between Atlantic France and the Rhineland/Alps area took a route that meant L21 didnt really move much along the Rhine north of the middle Rhine.  I have always fancied that L21 occurred as some S116* entered France from the middle Rhine/Main area via the Mosselle, thus explaining the lack of L21 in the Lower Rhine. I believe Mike indicated that north-central France has the highest L21 variance and that would very nicely fit that model.   


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 28, 2011, 11:58:00 AM
Mike,

Is there any thing in your research that shows an Anglo-Saxon period/Germanic L21 signature?  Surely some must have trickled in from the continent later than the Bronze and Iron ages.  

I suppose some of them could be these unclustered and off-modal types in the Isles.  Still just from looking at the Yahoo L21 data most Isles and colonial types have shorter genetic distances with the Scandinavians and Germanics (including Dutch members) on average.  France and Spain are usually more distant to them.  This would suggest that even for Bronze and/or Iron age movements L21 mostly came from the lower Rhine and north German plain rather than Armorica or Brittany.

Problem with that idea is that it seems that the Lower Rhine doesnt have much L21.  Certainly both the L21 project and Myres seems to indicate a big fall off in L21 once we pass as far east as Belgium.  If today's populations of Belgium and Holland represent the Belgae, I dont think there was very much L21 in that population at all.  The lack of L21 in Belgic Gaul has been apparent for a long time.  It seems to me L21 is much more likely to have been distributed  very much as seen on the project map even back 2000 years ago
I think we have to keep the Lower Rhine as a consideration for significant L21. As Rich points out, some of the best testing of the Low Countries did not include L21, but I think there is another consideration as well.

That consideration is that L21 in the Low Countries may be an earlier Bronze Age inhabitant but was "washed out" by later immigrants (probably U106 and I1) from the Jutland Peninsula.  I don't totally understand the history but wasn't there a lot of flooding that caused people east and north of the Low Countries to come in as well as over to England (Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc.)? I don't think anyone else tracks with me on this but I still like Han de Beule's analysis of I-L238 and R-L21.  His detailed analysis of the coastal versus inland areas where the Rhine dumps into the ocean involves the hypothesis that I-L238 and R-L21 were there but became scattered "remnants" by the time of or because of the new Jutland people coming in.



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on April 29, 2011, 12:10:27 PM
And, of course, Hubert (whom I respect greatly but who seems to have gone out of fashion) believed the Goidels/Beaker Folk who went to the British Isles did so from Westphalia (Nordrhein-Westfalen in Germany) mainly.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: GoldenHind on April 29, 2011, 11:15:17 PM
Mike,

Is there any thing in your research that shows an Anglo-Saxon period/Germanic L21 signature?  Surely some must have trickled in from the continent later than the Bronze and Iron ages.  

I suppose some of them could be these unclustered and off-modal types in the Isles.  Still just from looking at the Yahoo L21 data most Isles and colonial types have shorter genetic distances with the Scandinavians and Germanics (including Dutch members) on average.  France and Spain are usually more distant to them.  This would suggest that even for Bronze and/or Iron age movements L21 mostly came from the lower Rhine and north German plain rather than Armorica or Brittany.



I have maintained for some time that some portion, through probably a comparitively small one, of L21 in England arrived with the Anglo-Saxons. While it is often assumed that there isn't any L21 in northern Germany, a quick glance at the L21 project map shows this just isn't the case.  We also know that L21 is present in low but not insignicant numbers in Denmark. If we can believe the Myres' data, L21 comprises a little over 6% of the male population in that country.  This increases in northern Denmark  to just under 10%. Presumably this represents north Jutland, a area believed to be the homeland of the Jutes, one of the invading Germanic tribes in England. Thus it is not entirely fanciful to suggest that perhaps some 5 to 10% of the Anglo-Saxons who came to England may have been L21.

Personally I wouldn't be a bit surprised by the eventual discovery of one or more subclades under L21 that turn out to be primarily Germanic- at least by 5th century AD standards, whatever their ultimate origin may have been.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on April 30, 2011, 01:44:51 AM
I have maintained for some time that some portion, through probably a comparitively small one, of L21 in England arrived with the Anglo-Saxons. While it is often assumed that there isn't any L21 in northern Germany, a quick glance at the L21 project map shows this just isn't the case.  We also know that L21 is present in low but not insignicant numbers in Denmark. If we can believe the Myres' data, L21 comprises a little over 6% of the male population in that country.  This increases in northern Denmark  to just under 10%. Presumably this represents north Jutland, a area believed to be the homeland of the Jutes, one of the invading Germanic tribes in England. Thus it is not entirely fanciful to suggest that perhaps some 5 to 10% of the Anglo-Saxons who came to England may have been L21.

Personally I wouldn't be a bit surprised by the eventual discovery of one or more subclades under L21 that turn out to be primarily Germanic- at least by 5th century AD standards, whatever their ultimate origin may have been.

I can predict right now what the problem is going to be with any continental subclade of L21. As soon as even one person with British Isles ancestry is found to belong to that subclade, all bets are off: it's going to be labeled as British or Irish and its appearance on the Continent chalked up to Scottish merchants, Irish monks, Wild Geese, etc.

We need a super-continental L21 subclade, one without any Isles members, for it to be believable.

The problem is, how likely are we to find a clade like that? And if it had no Isles members, it wouldn't be of any use in establishing an Anglo-Saxon or Viking connection.

We were pigeonholed very early by a couple of knuckleheads, I'm afraid, and no matter how many continental L21s are found, it won't matter. We'll always be the British Isles haplogroup.

Even the maps in the recent and infamous Myres report perpetuate the illusion. The L21 map has a shading scale where the dark blue is up in the 70% + range. Frequencies of 20 or 30% hardly show up, they are so light. The effect is that the  L21 map in Myres makes it look as though all the L21 is in the British Isles and there is very little on the Continent.

The other haplogroup maps, on the other hand, like the U152 map, for example, have the dark blue set at around 30%. That way, even frequencies of 10% or so stand out on the map.

Sigh . . .


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 30, 2011, 03:40:26 AM
.....
Even the maps in the recent and infamous Myres report perpetuate the illusion. The L21 map has a shading scale where the dark blue is up in the 70% + range. Frequencies of 20 or 30% hardly show up, they are so light. The effect is that the  L21 map in Myres makes it look as though all the L21 is in the British Isles and there is very little on the Continent.....
Yes, that is craziness. I noticed it too.  It crazy to put frequency charts side by side to be easily "compared" but have a different scale for the shading per each chart.

We need to start making variance charts rather than frequency charts any.way. The variance will tell the story. Balaresque has nice chart of this that does look a lot like Neolithic gradients.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: GoldenHind on April 30, 2011, 03:12:44 PM
I have maintained for some time that some portion, through probably a comparitively small one, of L21 in England arrived with the Anglo-Saxons. While it is often assumed that there isn't any L21 in northern Germany, a quick glance at the L21 project map shows this just isn't the case.  We also know that L21 is present in low but not insignicant numbers in Denmark. If we can believe the Myres' data, L21 comprises a little over 6% of the male population in that country.  This increases in northern Denmark  to just under 10%. Presumably this represents north Jutland, a area believed to be the homeland of the Jutes, one of the invading Germanic tribes in England. Thus it is not entirely fanciful to suggest that perhaps some 5 to 10% of the Anglo-Saxons who came to England may have been L21.

Personally I wouldn't be a bit surprised by the eventual discovery of one or more subclades under L21 that turn out to be primarily Germanic- at least by 5th century AD standards, whatever their ultimate origin may have been.

I can predict right now what the problem is going to be with any continental subclade of L21. As soon as even one person with British Isles ancestry is found to belong to that subclade, all bets are off: it's going to be labeled as British or Irish and its appearance on the Continent chalked up to Scottish merchants, Irish monks, Wild Geese, etc.

We need a super-continental L21 subclade, one without any Isles members, for it to be believable.

The problem is, how likely are we to find a clade like that? And if it had no Isles members, it wouldn't be of any use in establishing an Anglo-Saxon or Viking connection.

We were pigeonholed very early by a couple of knuckleheads, I'm afraid, and no matter how many continental L21s are found, it won't matter. We'll always be the British Isles haplogroup.

Even the maps in the recent and infamous Myres report perpetuate the illusion. The L21 map has a shading scale where the dark blue is up in the 70% + range. Frequencies of 20 or 30% hardly show up, they are so light. The effect is that the  L21 map in Myres makes it look as though all the L21 is in the British Isles and there is very little on the Continent.

The other haplogroup maps, on the other hand, like the U152 map, for example, have the dark blue set at around 30%. That way, even frequencies of 10% or so stand out on the map.

Sigh . . .

There is no doubt that those who have preconceptions will find a way to interpret the evidence in a way that conforms with their beliefs. But let's say we eventually discover an L21 subclade which is primarily located on the northern continent, and the Isles members are primarily in those areas of England and Scotland where there was Germanic settlement. I think it would be very difficult to sell the usual explanations, though I have no doubt some would attempt to do so.

As for the Myres' maps, I am simply unable to figure out how they were constructed. For instance  the U106 map is heavily shaded in Norway. But look at their data for Norway. There isn't any! Someone on another forum once tried to explain how the statistics could be projected from other countries.  Yet everything I have seen so far suggests that R1b in Norway is predominantly P312.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 30, 2011, 05:04:38 PM
To be honest I havent heard anyone claim that L21 on the continent is down to migration from the isles for a long time now.  The only thing I would concede is that L21 is more north-westerly than U152.  So that their centres of strength differ.  They are both close siblings of very similar age (and therefore almost certainly originally of the same language and culture) and that age is far older than the various cultural labels given to it like La Tene, Hallstatt, even Urnfield.  These clades are much older than those cultures and I think its rather silly to keep trying to ignore this and labeling S116 clades with these cultural labels. 


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: jerome72 on May 01, 2011, 05:53:22 AM
To be honest I havent heard anyone claim that L21 on the continent is down to migration from the isles for a long time now.  The only thing I would concede is that L21 is more north-westerly than U152.  So that their centres of strength differ.  They are both close siblings of very similar age (and therefore almost certainly originally of the same language and culture) and that age is far older than the various cultural labels given to it like La Tene, Hallstatt, even Urnfield.  These clades are much older than those cultures and I think its rather silly to keep trying to ignore this and labeling S116 clades with these cultural labels. 

I made several maps using data from FTDNA and Ysearch (L21-U152-U106).
I was amused to compare L21 and U152

 Each circle on the map is proportional.
 We clearly see the difference in distribution between the two brothers L21 and U152.

Today, it is in the British Isles we find most of L21!
 To deny this would be bad faith!
 But this does not mean that in ancient times, this distribution was the same

So, just for the fun...
(http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/L21-U152.gif)
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/L21-U152.gif


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 01, 2011, 08:09:01 AM
Excellent work, Jerome.



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: GoldenHind on May 01, 2011, 03:16:48 PM
Very interesting- thanks. I would very much like to see your U106 map as well.

A suggestion: I think it would be easier to compare the maps if they appeared side by side, rather than jumping back and forth. I don't have any idea how difficult it would be to change that format.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 01, 2011, 06:31:20 PM
To be honest I havent heard anyone claim that L21 on the continent is down to migration from the isles for a long time now.  The only thing I would concede is that L21 is more north-westerly than U152.  So that their centres of strength differ.  They are both close siblings of very similar age (and therefore almost certainly originally of the same language and culture) and that age is far older than the various cultural labels given to it like La Tene, Hallstatt, even Urnfield.  These clades are much older than those cultures and I think its rather silly to keep trying to ignore this and labeling S116 clades with these cultural labels. 

I made several maps using data from FTDNA and Ysearch (L21-U152-U106).
I was amused to compare L21 and U152

 Each circle on the map is proportional.
 We clearly see the difference in distribution between the two brothers L21 and U152.

Today, it is in the British Isles we find most of L21!
 To deny this would be bad faith!
 But this does not mean that in ancient times, this distribution was the same

So, just for the fun...
(http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/L21-U152.gif)
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/L21-U152.gif

That map seems a pretty good representation of reality as far as we know it.  There had never been any doubt that L21 found it greatest space to expand in the British Isles and much of it is there.  However, it is likely that L21 first occurred somewhere close to where S116 first happened and that its expansion in earnest began in France.  There was a very high L21 hit rate for French R1b1b2 tested by the project so its clear there is a decent amount of L21 in France.  When testing was taking place, Bretons were excluded so that the claims that the French L21 is due to British settlers could be avoided.  L21 still came up very frequently in the testing of French R1b1b2 for L21 despite the exclusion of Bretons from the testing.  So, this seemed to establish beyond any reasonable doubt that L21 is native to France, even if its numbers are well below that of the isles. 


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: jerome72 on May 02, 2011, 10:07:31 AM
Very interesting- thanks. I would very much like to see your U106 map as well.

A suggestion: I think it would be easier to compare the maps if they appeared side by side, rather than jumping back and forth. I don't have any idea how difficult it would be to change that format.
Voici les cartes...

I  want to clarify how these maps were produced ...
 I took the total number of samples tested in FTDNA by country (through page ancestral origins)
 I do the ratio between the countries.
 Then I count the total of P312, L21, U106 ect .. on Ysearch I multiply by the ratio calculated on FTDNA ..
 Nothing scientific in there, but I am so disappointed with the results Scientic, I hope that my maps are not too ridiculous ...

(http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/bilancartes.jpg)
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/bilancartes.jpg


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: GoldenHind on May 02, 2011, 02:54:31 PM
Very interesting- thanks. I would very much like to see your U106 map as well.

A suggestion: I think it would be easier to compare the maps if they appeared side by side, rather than jumping back and forth. I don't have any idea how difficult it would be to change that format.
Voici les cartes...

I  want to clarify how these maps were produced ...
 I took the total number of samples tested in FTDNA by country (through page ancestral origins)
 I do the ratio between the countries.
 Then I count the total of P312, L21, U106 ect .. on Ysearch I multiply by the ratio calculated on FTDNA ..
 Nothing scientific in there, but I am so disappointed with the results Scientic, I hope that my maps are not too ridiculous ...

(http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/bilancartes.jpg)
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/bilancartes.jpg

Merci beaucoup, Jerome. Congratulations on producing a very interesting and instructive series of maps. They appear to be far more reliable than the maps in the Myres' paper. Perhaps they should employ you for their next study!

There are some very interesting points. I think the comparison of the overall U106 vs. P312 distribution very illuminating. I also think it is very instructive to compare Scandinavian distribution in each of the maps. There is only one result which looks unlikely to me. The P312* (XU152,L21,SRY2627) shows a stronger presence in Wales than in England, and everything I have seen indicates P312* is rare in Wales.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 02, 2011, 07:10:25 PM
To be honest I havent heard anyone claim that L21 on the continent is down to migration from the isles for a long time now.  The only thing I would concede is that L21 is more north-westerly than U152.  So that their centres of strength differ.  They are both close siblings of very similar age (and therefore almost certainly originally of the same language and culture) and that age is far older than the various cultural labels given to it like La Tene, Hallstatt, even Urnfield.  These clades are much older than those cultures and I think its rather silly to keep trying to ignore this and labeling S116 clades with these cultural labels. 

I made several maps using data from FTDNA and Ysearch (L21-U152-U106).
I was amused to compare L21 and U152

 Each circle on the map is proportional.
 We clearly see the difference in distribution between the two brothers L21 and U152.

Today, it is in the British Isles we find most of L21!
 To deny this would be bad faith!
 But this does not mean that in ancient times, this distribution was the same

So, just for the fun...
(http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/L21-U152.gif)
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/L21-U152.gif
Very cool, Jerome. Thank you.
I love the flip action .gif file between U152 and L21.  I guess simple minds (like me) are easily amused.

Did you notice how the dots all change except France and Iberia? Seems like a very even balance between L21 and U152 there.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: jerome72 on May 03, 2011, 12:30:54 AM
Very interesting- thanks. I would very much like to see your U106 map as well.

A suggestion: I think it would be easier to compare the maps if they appeared side by side, rather than jumping back and forth. I don't have any idea how difficult it would be to change that format.
Voici les cartes...

I  want to clarify how these maps were produced ...
 I took the total number of samples tested in FTDNA by country (through page ancestral origins)
 I do the ratio between the countries.
 Then I count the total of P312, L21, U106 ect .. on Ysearch I multiply by the ratio calculated on FTDNA ..
 Nothing scientific in there, but I am so disappointed with the results Scientic, I hope that my maps are not too ridiculous ...

(http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/bilancartes.jpg)
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/bilancartes.jpg

Merci beaucoup, Jerome. Congratulations on producing a very interesting and instructive series of maps. They appear to be far more reliable than the maps in the Myres' paper. Perhaps they should employ you for their next study!

There are some very interesting points. I think the comparison of the overall U106 vs. P312 distribution very illuminating. I also think it is very instructive to compare Scandinavian distribution in each of the maps. There is only one result which looks unlikely to me. The P312* (XU152,L21,SRY2627) shows a stronger presence in Wales than in England, and everything I have seen indicates P312* is rare in Wales.

The P312 * (XU152, L21, SRY2627) map has one fault:
 It also enter in account those who have no tests for L21, U152, SRY2627...
For Wales (coefficient: 11,7 for England = 1)
P312: 22
SRY2627: 1
U152: 3
L21: 23
P312*: 22


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: jerome72 on May 03, 2011, 12:36:51 AM
Thank you very much for your encouragement ...
 I know this is not the forum for haplogroup I, but I'm also made maps for this haplogroup.
Promise! I have no made ​other maps!


I could not do map for I1 for the British Isles because the data is inaccessible on Ysearch (+ 1000 results)
(http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/Haplogroup%20I.jpg)
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/Haplogroup%20I.jpg



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: GoldenHind on May 03, 2011, 03:14:48 PM
Perhaps that explains it. I did have a look at the Wales Project at FTDNA, where there is a function which lists members by SNP results. There were about 15 P312* individuals and about 60 L21 people.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: susanrosine on May 06, 2011, 09:08:19 PM
Perhaps that explains it. I did have a look at the Wales Project at FTDNA, where there is a function which lists members by SNP results. There were about 15 P312* individuals and about 60 L21 people.
The Wales project initially accepted anyone into the project; now it is limited to those who have proven their line to Wales (or strong family tradition). That means some of the men you counted haven't actually proven themselves back to Wales.
True count:
P312* 11
L21 51
M222 3

and, just for kicks,
35 I1 (all subgroups)
16 I2 (all subgroups)
9 U106 (all subgroups)

Susan (Wales project co-admin)


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 07, 2011, 07:39:24 AM
I am of the opinion that the pre-Roman population of Britain varied hugely in terms of clade count and perhaps already at that time followed much of the present patterns.  Classical sources make it clear that there were considered to be physical variation among the Britons.  Not just Belgae.  There are also contrasts given between coast and interior and of course the famous descriptions of a tribe in SE Wales as being Iberian-like while the Caledonians of Scotland were described as having reddish hair and being large and more like Germans.  There was clearly signifiant variation in autosomal dna.  Moffat makes the interesting observation that NE Scotland (north of the area settled by the Anglo-Saxons and south of the area settled by Vikings) despite lack of attested pre-Medieval Germanic settlement, still has raised U106 and U152 levels, somewhat like the areas in the east and south of England where it is usually put down to Anglo-Saxons and Vikings.  This must cast doubt over the idea that U106 and U152 are all down to Germanic settlement in Britain.  There seem to be clear hints that the clade differences across Britain are partly down to pre-Roman times.  The Britons seem not to have been a homogenous block and in my opinion it is very silly to use modern Welsh as a proxy for the 'lost' Britons of England when trying to calculate the proportion of Anglo-Saxon input.  I would suggest (imperfect though it is) that north-eastern Scots may make a better baseline proxy for the 'lost' Britons of the south and east. 


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 07, 2011, 08:41:20 AM
I have to confess to some ignorance when it comes to NE Scotland as a separate region when it comes to Scottish history, but I do know that the Britons occupied SW Scotland, did they not? The kingdoms of Strathclyde and Rheged were British, and they were in the southwest. Gododdin in SE Scotland was also British, but it was defeated by the Anglo-Saxon Northumbrians and settled by them.

I thought NE Scotland was mostly Pictish.

What kind of frequencies for U152 and U106 in NE Scotland do Moffat and Wilson consider "raised"?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Heber on May 07, 2011, 12:51:39 PM
I have to confess to some ignorance when it comes to NE Scotland as a separate region when it comes to Scottish history, but I do know that the Britons occupied SW Scotland, did they not? The kingdoms of Strathclyde and Rheged were British, and they were in the southwest. Gododdin in SE Scotland was also British, but it was defeated by the Anglo-Saxon Northumbrians and settled by them.

I thought NE Scotland was mostly Pictish.

What kind of frequencies for U152 and U106 in NE Scotland do Moffat and Wilson consider "raised"?

I have just finished reading, The Scots a Genetic Journey, by Alistair Moffat and Dr. Jim Wilson.
It contains a number of useful Haplogroup maps associated with the four nations of Scotland, Gaels, Picts, Vikings and Saxons as well as the original Mesolithic settlers..
I have included relevant extracts below and a link to the maps.
M222
“As a result of a process coyly termed social selection, scientists have identified an old lineage in Ireland dating from around 400 to 500. Known as M222, it is astonishingly common. No less than 20 per cent of all Irish men carry it! Its distribution is heavily weighted to the north with 40 percent in Ulster, 30 per cent in Connaught and 10 – 15 percent in in Munster and Leinster. No less than a fifth of all Irish men are directly descended from one man who lived 1,500 years ago”.
“Given the distribution of the marker and its bias to Ulster and especially to men with the O’Neill and O’Donnell surnames, there exists a clear candidate. The O’Neill kindred dominated Irish history from the fifth to the tenth centuries and their founder was the High King known as Niall Noigiallach”.
“Lord  Turlough O’Donnell who died in 1423, carried on the family tradition with gusto. He had 14 sons and 59 male grandchildren.”
“More than 50,000 Scottish men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its varients, are the direct decendents of Semerled. The first Lord of the Isles and founder of Clan Donald, he ruled the Hebrides and was King of the Isle of Man”.
“Did it (the M222 marker) cross the sea with the war bands of Fergus Mor mac Erc and his ancestors? There is uncompromising evidence that it did. More than 6 percent of all Scottish men carry M222, around 150,000 are direct decendents of Niall, the High King of the Irish. The frequency of the marker is very pronounced on the west with 9 per cent and less in the east with 3 per cent on the axis from Galloway to Shetland. It occurs very often amongst men with ancient Scottish surnames and whose family trees can, in some cases, be traced back over three centuries. Those in Scotland with the M222 marker are not recent immigrants and their high incidence and geographic spread indicate a large scale movement of people – probably mainly from Ulster and probably around AD 500”.

http://www.box.net/shared/gsbm92c2ri

The frequencies of the M222 Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
“Other Irish specific markers from the period around AD 500 can be found in Scotland and their presence reinforces a sense of colonization. S168 (M226) is relatively rare and strongly concentrated around the River Shannon where it is now found in Tipperary and Limerick. This was once the territory of the Dalcassian clans, the decendents of the great High King Brian Boru. S169 (L159.2) is most common in Leinster, the lands of the Lagin clans, and it too is found in Scotland,  especially amongst men with the surnames Beattie and Ferguson”.
“The genetic and political divide between incomers and natives also had cultural facets. The Dalriadans spoke Irish Gaelic, Q-Celtic, while the Picts spoke P-Celtic and it appears that the languages were not mutually intelligible. When St Columba attempted to bring the Word of God to the Picts, it had to be translated”.
“A marker has been identified that is essentially unique to Scotland and rarely found elsewhere. It is known as R1b-str47 or R1b-Pict and around 10% of Scottish men carry it. In our towns and villages 250,000 Picts are quietly going about their daily lives. The distribution of the marker broadly matches the Pictish territory and where later incursions such as Dalriada Gaels and the Vikings overlaid it, the numbers are diluted.It is well represented in the east of Scotland above the Forth but much less so in Northern and Western Isles. R1b-Pict is at least 3,000 years old and possibly even older and is a subgroup of S145 (L21)”.

http://www.box.net/shared/b5x3szygr4

http://www.box.net/shared/dk4zyrft7p

Clockwise from left to right:
The frequencies of the S28 (U152) 'Eastern side' Y or chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
The frequencies of the S145-str47 ‘Pictish’ Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
The frequencies of the M17 'Viking' Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
“In Orkney, 20 per cent of men carry carry the Y chrosomone marker R1a-M17 and its frequency in Norway is 30 per cent. It is much rarer in the south and west of Scotland and England reaching about 4 per cent, and it looked a likely candidate for the Norse or Viking marker”.
“Now it appears that S145 (L21) also travelled along these (Atlantic) trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC”.
“Also more common in eastern Britain, S28 (U152) originated in the lands around the Alps, south-east France and northern Italy and then spread across what is now Germany. Because of the relative imprecision of the Y-chromosome molecular clock, geneticists have occasionally urged precaution in comparing these samples of modern populations”.
“In addition to the M284 marker, another lineage found its way to Scotland from the Ice Age Refuges and the painted caves in southern France and northern Spain. M26 accounts for only 12,000 or so Scots men, around 0.5 per cent of the total population, and is one of the oldest lineages still to be found. M423 has a similar frequency to M26 with around 20,000 Scots men carrying the marker and it is another founding lineage. Those Scots who carry the M423 marker are most certainly descended from the survivors of Doggerland”.

Dr Jim Wilson concludes the book by stating:
“There is a new revolution taking place in genetics whereby the DNA of entire genomes can be read cheaply – all six billion letters of the genetic code. Once we make sense of all this information, it will provide a level of detail far beyond that which we have today, potentially identifying the very fjord a Viking set sail from, and building a family tree for all Scots and all mankind. My six billion letter sequence was completed last week and we will begin the analysis tomorrow.”
I would agree and look forward to future developments.




Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: GoldenHind on May 07, 2011, 02:26:44 PM
Perhaps that explains it. I did have a look at the Wales Project at FTDNA, where there is a function which lists members by SNP results. There were about 15 P312* individuals and about 60 L21 people.
The Wales project initially accepted anyone into the project; now it is limited to those who have proven their line to Wales (or strong family tradition). That means some of the men you counted haven't actually proven themselves back to Wales.
True count:
P312* 11
L21 51
M222 3

and, just for kicks,
35 I1 (all subgroups)
16 I2 (all subgroups)
9 U106 (all subgroups)

Susan (Wales project co-admin)

Very interesting. Thanks very much.  Some observations:
L21 is the largest HG, followed by I1, which some people like to claim is Germanic.
The ratio of L21 to P312* is nearly 5 to 1.
P312* only slightly outnumbers U106.
I don't know that I would read too much into all this, other than to reinforce my contention that attaching strict ethnic labels to the various HGs is problematic.
Also I agree with Alan's argument that Wales is not an accurate proxy for the entire population of England before the Anglo-Saxons.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 07, 2011, 04:18:27 PM
Re Heber's maps from Moffat and Wilson above.

Honestly, I don't see any startling pattern for U152. Its distribution doesn't seem to follow any historical pattern that I know of. You can say it's pretty scarce in Wales and Ireland, but it certainly doesn't follow any "viking" pattern, as was once proposed pretty vocally on Rootsweb and other venues.

In fact, U152 seems to mirror the R1b-STR47 "Pictish" thing fairly closely, but is more frequent in southern England than STR47 is. I'm guessing "STR47" is one of John McEwan's old cluster formulations.

The similarity between U152 in Scotland and STR47 there makes me think that perhaps U152 was the vector for the introduction of P-Celtic from the Continent sometime during the Iron Age. It never caught on in Ireland, and you can easily see why, if it was mainly U152 immigrants who carried it. Perhaps it only caught on in Wales via trade and cultural contacts, since Wales is on the main British island.



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 07, 2011, 04:23:59 PM
Re Heber's maps from Moffat and Wilson above.

Honestly, I don't see any startling pattern for U152. Its distribution doesn't seem to follow any historical pattern that I know of. You can say it's pretty scarce in Wales and Ireland, but it certainly doesn't follow any "viking" pattern, as was once proposed pretty vocally on Rootsweb and other venues.

In fact, U152 seems to mirror the R1b-STR47 "Pictish" thing fairly closely, but is more frequent in southern England than STR47 is. I'm guessing "STR47" is one of John McEwan's old cluster formulations.

The similarity between U152 in Scotland and STR47 there makes me think that perhaps U152 was the vector for the introduction of P-Celtic from the Continent sometime during the Iron Age. It never caught on in Ireland, and you can easily see why, if it was mainly U152 immigrants who carried it. Perhaps it only caught on in Wales via trade and cultural contacts, since Wales is on the main British island.


Here's another thing. Given Moffat and Wilson's dating for the arrival of L21 (S145) from "southern France or northern Iberia", are they saying it was of Beaker origin? Or are they still attributing it to "Basque fishermen", as was once done for all of "R1b" in the British Isles?

Honestly, I suspect they're doing the latter, deriving L21 from the Basque country, but I could be wrong.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 07, 2011, 09:18:38 PM
I suspect there was a lots of Norse in Southern and Northern Scotland. All the way to the Isle of Mann, I see no reason why some of these people couldn't be L21. I think they ate all the Picts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Mann_and_the_Isles

And the kingdom of Dublin and then Cork, and Wexford.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Dublin

A Norse shipyard has been found in Skye Scotland.
http://www.pasthorizons.com/index.php/archives/05/2011/viking-shipyard-found-on-scottish-island

I should add that I don't know where L21 is oldest.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Heber on May 07, 2011, 10:52:27 PM


Here's another thing. Given Moffat and Wilson's dating for the arrival of L21 (S145) from "southern France or northern Iberia", are they saying it was of Beaker origin? Or are they still attributing it to "Basque fishermen", as was once done for all of "R1b" in the British Isles?

Honestly, I suspect they're doing the latter, deriving L21 from the Basque country, but I could be wrong.
[/quote]

Rich,

They specifically link L21 to the Atlantic Bell Beakers.

"DNA sampling reinforces an intertwined sense of two distinct seaborne trading networks in Britain and Ireland. In the west the emphatic presence of S145 (L21) appears to mirror mercantile contact. Distinctive pots known as maritime bell beakers were first made in the region oaround the River Tagus in Portugal and the tradition of bows and arrows in graves may also have originated there. By 2,500 BC, this cultural package had spread north to the Morbihan area of southern Brittany and the mouth of the Loire. This area became a centre of production and exchange not only for bell beakers but other valuable items such as axes, flints, daggers and lance heads. From Morbihan/Loire the beakers filtered down the French river valleys to the Meditteranean coast and eastwards to northern Italy. To the north, contacts were made with Wessex, Ireland and Atlantic Scotland".


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: GoldenHind on May 07, 2011, 11:03:51 PM
Re Heber's maps from Moffat and Wilson above.

Honestly, I don't see any startling pattern for U152. Its distribution doesn't seem to follow any historical pattern that I know of. You can say it's pretty scarce in Wales and Ireland, but it certainly doesn't follow any "viking" pattern, as was once proposed pretty vocally on Rootsweb and other venues.

In fact, U152 seems to mirror the R1b-STR47 "Pictish" thing fairly closely, but is more frequent in southern England than STR47 is. I'm guessing "STR47" is one of John McEwan's old cluster formulations.

The similarity between U152 in Scotland and STR47 there makes me think that perhaps U152 was the vector for the introduction of P-Celtic from the Continent sometime during the Iron Age. It never caught on in Ireland, and you can easily see why, if it was mainly U152 immigrants who carried it. Perhaps it only caught on in Wales via trade and cultural contacts, since Wales is on the main British island.



I don't have the Moffat & Wilson book, but I have read sufficient discussion of it that I believe I can explain his reasoning, at least concerning U106. It has long been observed that U106 has an east/west cline in Britain, being far more common in the east then the west. The standard explanation for this has been that this was a result of the Anglo-Saxon invasions and later incursions from Scandinavia. Moffat and Wilson say however that this same cline exists in northeast Scotland in an area where the Germanics never settled- an area north of Anglian settlement but south of that of the Vikings. Thus they propose that the cline must represent settlement patterns which began in prehistoric times. Needless to say, this didn't go over well with those that want to maintain the Germanic purity of U106. They argued that U106 in that area must be due to Flemish and Norman settlement in the middle ages. I believe they have a similar opinion regarding U152, which must have been very distressing to a certain individual.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: susanrosine on May 07, 2011, 11:08:24 PM
Perhaps that explains it. I did have a look at the Wales Project at FTDNA, where there is a function which lists members by SNP results. There were about 15 P312* individuals and about 60 L21 people.
The Wales project initially accepted anyone into the project; now it is limited to those who have proven their line to Wales (or strong family tradition). That means some of the men you counted haven't actually proven themselves back to Wales.
True count:
P312* 11
L21 51
M222 3

and, just for kicks,
35 I1 (all subgroups)
16 I2 (all subgroups)
9 U106 (all subgroups)

Susan (Wales project co-admin)

Very interesting. Thanks very much.  Some observations:
L21 is the largest HG, followed by I1, which some people like to claim is Germanic.
The ratio of L21 to P312* is nearly 5 to 1.
P312* only slightly outnumbers U106.
I don't know that I would read too much into all this, other than to reinforce my contention that attaching strict ethnic labels to the various HGs is problematic.
Also I agree with Alan's argument that Wales is not an accurate proxy for the entire population of England before the Anglo-Saxons.
Absolutely do NOT use Wales as a proxy for the population of England before the Anglo-Saxons!! Oh my goodness!!!!  That would be silly, as Alan put it.
What our Wales project has been trying to do for several years now is gather Y-DNA from men who descend from the ancient Welsh pedigrees. Most of these pedigrees have been researched intensely, and are considered to be very accurate, at least as far back as 300-600 A.D.
Once this goal has been accomplished (one of these decades, SIGH) it will still only tell you the makeup of Wales at that time; not the makeup of England, Scotland, Ireland or Denver, Colorado   :-)  
Our Wales project currently has a man who has traced his line back to 1047. He is Hg I1.
We have another who traced back to a Norman invasion ancestor (1192); also Hg I1.
There is an R-L21 man going back to the 1200s.
There is a P-312* man going back to 1150.
We have a Picton man, obviously not a Welsh name, but came to Wales by 1260. He was the first one I believe to test positive for U106 downstream SNPs L48 and L47 and L44 and L46. But, he's not true ancient Welsh.
I will, of course, announce with great happiness anytime we do get a man tracing back anytime before 1066, once we get him deep clade tested.
We have so many men who are R1b1a2 who have not deep clade tested yet, even though I let them know every time there is a sale on clade testing!!! Many of them have tested out to 67 markers, and I've weeded out the ones who will likely test U106+ and put them in a separate category. However, that only eliminated three out of over 70 gentlemen!! So, R-L21 may climb even higher.
Should I suggest to these men to JUST test L21? Big difference in price, and it may convince them. Thoughts anyone????


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: susanrosine on May 07, 2011, 11:12:47 PM
Re Heber's maps from Moffat and Wilson above.

Honestly, I don't see any startling pattern for U152. Its distribution doesn't seem to follow any historical pattern that I know of. You can say it's pretty scarce in Wales and Ireland, but it certainly doesn't follow any "viking" pattern, as was once proposed pretty vocally on Rootsweb and other venues.

In fact, U152 seems to mirror the R1b-STR47 "Pictish" thing fairly closely, but is more frequent in southern England than STR47 is. I'm guessing "STR47" is one of John McEwan's old cluster formulations.

The similarity between U152 in Scotland and STR47 there makes me think that perhaps U152 was the vector for the introduction of P-Celtic from the Continent sometime during the Iron Age. It never caught on in Ireland, and you can easily see why, if it was mainly U152 immigrants who carried it. Perhaps it only caught on in Wales via trade and cultural contacts, since Wales is on the main British island.



I don't have the Moffat & Wilson book, but I have read sufficient discussion of it that I believe I can explain his reasoning, at least concerning U106. It has long been observed that U106 has an east/west cline in Britain, being far more common in the east then the west. The standard explanation for this has been that this was a result of the Anglo-Saxon invasions and later incursions from Scandinavia. Moffat and Wilson say however that this same cline exists in northeast Scotland in an area where the Germanics never settled- an area north of Anglian settlement but south of that of the Vikings. Thus they propose that the cline must represent settlement patterns which began in prehistoric times. Needless to say, this didn't go over well with those that want to maintain the Germanic purity of U106. They argued that U106 in that area must be due to Flemish and Norman settlement in the middle ages. I believe they have a similar opinion regarding U152, which must have been very distressing to a certain individual.
I agree that U106 came before the Germanic people and goes back to ancient times. Just my two cents worth.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Heber on May 07, 2011, 11:20:54 PM
I suspect there was a lots of Norse in Southern and Northern Scotland. All the way to the Isle of Mann, I see no reason why some of these people couldn't be L21. I think they ate all the Picts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Mann_and_the_Isles

And the kingdom of Dublin and then Cork, and Wexford.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Dublin

A Norse shipyard has been found in Skye Scotland.
http://www.pasthorizons.com/index.php/archives/05/2011/viking-shipyard-found-on-scottish-island

I should add that I don't know where L21 is oldest.


Moffat and Wilson support the theory of L21 spread by Viking slave markets.

"Dublin was founded in the 840s first as a longphort and then it developed as a busy slave market. When sea lords raided, the more sober and business like would not allow the younger and fitter people they captured to be slaughtered. Instead, they herded them on to the longships and took them to Dublin. or elsewhere for sale. In 850, a hugh fleet of Dublin Vikings, perhaps 200 ships, sailed into the Firth of Clyde and laid siege to Dumbarton Rock".
"The  Anglo-Saxon word for a native Briton was wealh (Welsh is derived from it) and it was also used to mean a slave".
"The discovery of both the pan-British Isles marker of S145 (L21) and the Irish and Scottish M222 in coastal Norway has suggested a remnant legacy of slaves shipped back to the Viking homeland".

What happened to the Picts?

"In 839, a battle was fought in Strathearn that may have spelled the end of the Pictish kingdom south of the Mounth. A great force of Vikings slaughtered the Pictish nobility in such numbers that a vacuum allowed Kenneth McAlpin to establish himself in Pictland in the aftermath. He may not have been the first Dalriadian king to rule east of Drumalban but all Scottish kings are numbered from him and, with his accession, a process of unification did appear to begin in earnest".


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Heber on May 08, 2011, 02:33:08 AM
Re Heber's maps from Moffat and Wilson above.

Honestly, I don't see any startling pattern for U152. Its distribution doesn't seem to follow any historical pattern that I know of. You can say it's pretty scarce in Wales and Ireland, but it certainly doesn't follow any "viking" pattern, as was once proposed pretty vocally on Rootsweb and other venues.

In fact, U152 seems to mirror the R1b-STR47 "Pictish" thing fairly closely, but is more frequent in southern England than STR47 is. I'm guessing "STR47" is one of John McEwan's old cluster formulations.

The similarity between U152 in Scotland and STR47 there makes me think that perhaps U152 was the vector for the introduction of P-Celtic from the Continent sometime during the Iron Age. It never caught on in Ireland, and you can easily see why, if it was mainly U152 immigrants who carried it. Perhaps it only caught on in Wales via trade and cultural contacts, since Wales is on the main British island.



I don't have the Moffat & Wilson book, but I have read sufficient discussion of it that I believe I can explain his reasoning, at least concerning U106. It has long been observed that U106 has an east/west cline in Britain, being far more common in the east then the west. The standard explanation for this has been that this was a result of the Anglo-Saxon invasions and later incursions from Scandinavia. Moffat and Wilson say however that this same cline exists in northeast Scotland in an area where the Germanics never settled- an area north of Anglian settlement but south of that of the Vikings. Thus they propose that the cline must represent settlement patterns which began in prehistoric times. Needless to say, this didn't go over well with those that want to maintain the Germanic purity of U106. They argued that U106 in that area must be due to Flemish and Norman settlement in the middle ages. I believe they have a similar opinion regarding U152, which must have been very distressing to a certain individual.

Dr. David Faux has a very interesting analysis of the book and this point in particular on rootsweb.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1299085388


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 08, 2011, 07:29:19 AM
Re:
Moffat and Wilson support the theory of L21 spread by Viking slave markets.



I thought we were past the "Irish Slave" thing?

What people take slaves and then let them breed?
Or is L21 in Scandinavia sourced from a few escaped slaves?

Maybe Moffat and Wilson think the Norse had little slave villages where the slaves could go home to the wife and kids from a hard day at the quarry? :))

aaaaaaaa

"An analysis of DNA from a Viking gravesite near a 1000 year-old church in southern Greenland shows that those buried there had strong Celtic bloodlines.
Danish archaeologists are currently conducting the first regional study of southern Greenland's original settlers, whose colonies date back to the year 985. The skeletons disinterred outside the old church also date back to just a few years after that period"

"Although the DNA analysis reveals the inhabitants had Celtic blood in their veins, Arneborg said there was no question that the settlers were Nordic.
'Everything these people did -- their culture, means of nourishment and so on -- was clearly Scandinavian"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2478281/posts

I'm not saying the ancient remains were L21+.
I do wonder how much L21 will be found in Scandinavia.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 08, 2011, 08:51:21 AM

Dr. David Faux has a very interesting analysis of the book and this point in particular on rootsweb.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1299085388

First off, Faux was wrong. U152 does NOT "twin" with R1a. Look at the maps. If it "twins" with anything, it is the so-called "Pictish" STR47.

Secondly, "Dr." Faux is a psychologist. That's fine, but using "Dr." in front of his name in a genetic context gives him more authority than he should have. He is not an authority on genetics.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 08, 2011, 09:21:51 AM
Moffat and Wilson support the theory of L21 spread by Viking slave markets.

"Dublin was founded in the 840s first as a longphort and then it developed as a busy slave market. When sea lords raided, the more sober and business like would not allow the younger and fitter people they captured to be slaughtered. Instead, they herded them on to the longships and took them to Dublin. or elsewhere for sale. In 850, a hugh fleet of Dublin Vikings, perhaps 200 ships, sailed into the Firth of Clyde and laid siege to Dumbarton Rock".
"The  Anglo-Saxon word for a native Briton was wealh (Welsh is derived from it) and it was also used to mean a slave".
"The discovery of both the pan-British Isles marker of S145 (L21) and the Irish and Scottish M222 in coastal Norway has suggested a remnant legacy of slaves shipped back to the Viking homeland".

What happened to the Picts?

"In 839, a battle was fought in Strathearn that may have spelled the end of the Pictish kingdom south of the Mounth. A great force of Vikings slaughtered the Pictish nobility in such numbers that a vacuum allowed Kenneth McAlpin to establish himself in Pictland in the aftermath. He may not have been the first Dalriadian king to rule east of Drumalban but all Scottish kings are numbered from him and, with his accession, a process of unification did appear to begin in earnest".


I wonder about much of this sort of thing. I doubt seriously the bit about the etymology of the Anglo-Saxon word wealh. I believe scholars have traced the etymology of that word and its cognates in other Germanic languages (like Walloon, for example) to the old Germanic name for the Celtic tribe the Volcae.

Where is the evidence that it ever meant "slave"?

Just because someone writes or says something does not make it true.

Secondly, it is doubtful the vikings could have hauled enough male slaves back to Scandinavia to produce the sort of frequency of L21 we are seeing in Norway and other Scandinavian countries.

Medieval Scandinavia did not have the sort of plantation economy that needed or could have supported large numbers of slaves. In fact, a couple of the reasons advanced for the viking phenomenon itself are over-population and lack of arable land.

Gwyn Jones, an acknowledged expert on the vikings, says in his book, The Vikings: A History, that the prime slave-hunting ground of the vikings was the Baltic sea coast, which is hardly swarming with L21. That makes sense because the Baltic is a Scandinavian sea. The vikings could grab people there and be back in Scandinavia quickly. Hauling slaves all the way from the British Isles would have been much more difficult, although certainly not impossible.

Notice also that the vikings sold their British and Irish captives at slave markets in Ireland. They didn't haul them back to Scandinavia.

I would guess that the slaves who made it back to Scandinavia were, ninety-nine times out of one hundred, good-looking females.

Let's suppose for a minute or two that the L21 in Scandinavia mostly got there in the bodies of British and Irish thralls. Well then, what of the U152 and U106 - and even some of the I1 - in Scandinavia? Did the vikings y-dna test their captives, culling all but the L21s? There is apparently far far less U152 than L21 in Scandinavia. It is found in much larger quantities in Britain, ergo, its presence in Scandinavia must be chalked up to the viking slave trade.  

There is plenty of U106 in England, particularly in eastern England where the Danes held sway. No doubt that means much, if not all, of the U106 in Denmark and elsewhere in Scandinavia got there as a consequence of the viking slave trade.

I would also like to add, by way of balance, that the vikings got their arses handed to them a number of times by predominantly Celtic forces. Like when King Rhodri Mawr of Gwynedd in Wales defeated the Danes in 856 and killed their king, Gorm.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 08, 2011, 11:14:21 AM
Wales has seen much of Scandinavians.
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/welsh.shtml

Today there are Norse placenames in Wales.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Heber on May 08, 2011, 11:47:09 AM
Re:
Moffat and Wilson support the theory of L21 spread by Viking slave markets.



I thought we were past the "Irish Slave" thing?

What people take slaves and then let them breed?
Or is L21 in Scandinavia sourced from a few escaped slaves?

Maybe Moffat and Wilson think the Norse had little slave villages where the slaves could go home to the wife and kids from a hard day at the quarry? :))

aaaaaaaa

"An analysis of DNA from a Viking gravesite near a 1000 year-old church in southern Greenland shows that those buried there had strong Celtic bloodlines.
Danish archaeologists are currently conducting the first regional study of southern Greenland's original settlers, whose colonies date back to the year 985. The skeletons disinterred outside the old church also date back to just a few years after that period"

"Although the DNA analysis reveals the inhabitants had Celtic blood in their veins, Arneborg said there was no question that the settlers were Nordic.
'Everything these people did -- their culture, means of nourishment and so on -- was clearly Scandinavian"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2478281/posts

I'm not saying the ancient remains were L21+.
I do wonder how much L21 will be found in Scandinavia.


DNA studies demonstrate significant admixture, mtDNA and Y Chrosomone between Vikings and Gaels.

The Icelanders are one of the most studied populations in human genetics. According to historical and archaeological sources, Iceland was settled roughly 1100 years ago by a mixture of people that originated primarily from Scandinavia and the British Isles. Studies of mtDNA variation indicate that contemporary Icelanders trace about 37% of their matrilineal ancestry to Scandinavia, with the remainder coming from the populations of Scotland and Ireland.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2613751/

Take the case of "Somerlad the Viking", the Gaelic chief who defeated the Vikings and established Clan Donald.
 "More than 50,000 Scottish  men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its variants, are the direct decendants of Somerled. The first Lord of the Isles and founder of Clan Donald, he ruled the Hebrides and was King of the Isle of Man. When he clashed with Malcolm IV of Scotland at Renfrew in 1164, Somerled was killed - but his genes certainly lived on".
23% of a group tested carry the M17 Norse signature while others carry the M222 Celtic signature and S155 Pictish signature.
These were hybrid clans with access and trade to Gaelic and Viking territories.
Many of the Viking strongholds including Dublin became Gaelicised after a period.
"The Norse-Gaels originated in Viking colonies of Ireland and Scotland, whose inhabitants became subject to the process of Gaelicisation, whereby starting as early as the ninth century, most intermarried with native Gaels (except for the Norse who settled in Cumbria) and adopted the Gaelic language as well as many other Gaelic customs. Many left their original worship of Norse gods and converted to Christianity, and this contributed to the Gaelicisation".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall-Gaidheal




Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 08, 2011, 12:34:59 PM
Somerled died approx 1164

Origins
The Norse-Gaelic Clan Donald traces its descent from Dòmhnall Mac Raghnuill (d. circa 1250),

[1] whose father Reginald or Ranald was styled "King of the Isles" and "Lord of Argyll and Kintyre".[2] Ranald's father, Somerled was styled "King of the Hebrides. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Donald#Origins

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Norwegian Control
"The Hebrides began to come under Norse control and settlement already before the 9th century. Norwegian rule of the Hebrides was formalised in 1098 when Edgar of Scotland recognised the claim of Magnus III of Norway. The Scottish acceptance of Magnus as King of the Isles came after the Norwegian king had conquered earlier the same year the Orkney Islands, the Hebrides and the Isle of Man in a swift campaign against the local Norse leaders of the various islands. By capturing the islands Magnus imposed a more direct royal control over land seized by his kinsmen centuries earlier.

The Norwegian control of both the Inner and Outer Hebrides would see almost constant warfare until the partitioning of the Western Isles in 1156. The Outer Hebrides remained under the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles while the Inner Hebrides broke out under Somerled, the Norse-Gael kinsman of both Lulach and the Manx royal house.

After his victory of 1156 Somerled went on to seize control over the Isle of Man itself two years later and become the last King of Mann and the Isles to rule over all the islands the kingdom had once included. After Somerled's death in 1164 the rulers of Mann were no longer in control of the Inner Hebrides."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrides





Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Jdean on May 08, 2011, 12:41:52 PM
Take the case of "Somerlad the Viking", the Gaelic chief who defeated the Vikings and established Clan Donald.
 "More than 50,000 Scottish  men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its variants, are the direct decendants of Somerled.".

23% of a group tested carry the M17 Norse signature while others carry the M222 Celtic signature and S155 Pictish signature.

I’m probably missing something here but which of these is the identifying signature for Somerled carried by MacDonalds?



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 08, 2011, 12:56:56 PM
Maybe it's the Irish Sea model? ;)


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: jerome72 on May 08, 2011, 01:06:06 PM

Dr. David Faux has a very interesting analysis of the book and this point in particular on rootsweb.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1299085388

First off, Faux was wrong.

fun! Faux in french means wrong!(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Rires/0019.gif)

Nobody talked about L459.
For now, we do not know if this SNP is before or after L21, But if it is after, and if we found L21 but negatif for  L459, it will be very interresting to see what areas they are!
Maybe the original land of L21(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/0016.gif)


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 08, 2011, 01:11:15 PM
I don't think it would be too hard to tell over time which came first?

Have any people upstream of L21 tested for L459 ?



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Jdean on May 08, 2011, 01:42:46 PM
I don't think it would be too hard to tell over time which came first?

Have any people upstream of L21 tested for L459 ?



Not very many unfortunately, I suspect we will have to wait for FTDNA to start looking for this in the Deep Clade test before we get the answer.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: GoldenHind on May 08, 2011, 03:34:57 PM
We have so many men who are R1b1a2 who have not deep clade tested yet, even though I let them know every time there is a sale on clade testing!!! Many of them have tested out to 67 markers, and I've weeded out the ones who will likely test U106+ and put them in a separate category. However, that only eliminated three out of over 70 gentlemen!! So, R-L21 may climb even higher.
Should I suggest to these men to JUST test L21? Big difference in price, and it may convince them. Thoughts anyone????

While deep clade testing is obviously preferrable, for those to whom the cost is an obstacle, certainly a test just for L21 is better than nothing. The statistics suggest that the great majority of R1b in Wales is going to be L21. Perhaps those who turn up negative for L21 might have their curiosity arroused sufficiently to then pursue further SNP testing.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: GoldenHind on May 08, 2011, 07:25:33 PM
Re:
Moffat and Wilson support the theory of L21 spread by Viking slave markets.



I thought we were past the "Irish Slave" thing?


I think the whole Viking slave idea, which some HG I fools have even suggested as the source of all R1b in Scandinavia, is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how that trade actually operated. I suspect they have the model which operated in the Americas in mind, where large numbers of slaves were imported as agricultural workers. There is simply no evidence to suggest the Vikings brought large numbers of slaves to Scandinavia, though this may have occurred in Iceland, where they were settling virgin land, much like the situation in the Americas. Generally the Vikings preferred to enslave young women, boys and people with valuable skills. Much of the trade operated within the British Isles, though it is known they traded slaves as far away as Spain. Slaves were more of a commodity to be sold or traded on than a source of forced labor to bring back to Scandinavia.
To anyone interested in the subject, I recommend the scholarly article  "The Slave Trade in Dublin, Ninth to Twelfth Centuries" by the Danish historian Paul Holm. It is available online, but I am rather pressed for time at the moment, so won't take time to provide a link. I'm sure it be easily located on Google.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Heber on May 08, 2011, 08:08:10 PM
Take the case of "Somerlad the Viking", the Gaelic chief who defeated the Vikings and established Clan Donald.
 "More than 50,000 Scottish  men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its variants, are the direct decendants of Somerled.".

23% of a group tested carry the M17 Norse signature while others carry the M222 Celtic signature and S155 Pictish signature.

I’m probably missing something here but which of these is the identifying signature for Somerled carried by MacDonalds?

Jean,
I am travelling this week. I will take the book with me and try to get the quotes.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Heber on May 08, 2011, 10:55:05 PM
Take the case of "Somerlad the Viking", the Gaelic chief who defeated the Vikings and established Clan Donald.
 "More than 50,000 Scottish  men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its variants, are the direct decendants of Somerled.".

23% of a group tested carry the M17 Norse signature while others carry the M222 Celtic signature and S155 Pictish signature.

I’m probably missing something here but which of these is the identifying signature for Somerled carried by MacDonalds?

Jean,
I am travelling this week. I will take the book with me and try to get the quotes.

"In the late 9th and early 10th century the kaleidoscope was twisted once more when some of the Celto-Norse peoples of the Hebrides migrated south. Because they spoke Gaelic but were descended from Vikings, they became known as the Gall-Gaidheil and they gave their name to Galloway".

"In the south of the land of MacLeods lay the wide lands of Clan Donald. Their name father was the first Lord of the Isles, Somerland , and once again, social selection counts 50,000 men withh the name MacDonald or its variants as his direct decendants. There is accurate data available from a large sample of 164 MacDonald Y chromosones and it contains a facinating twist on tradition. Somerled was known to chroniclers as 'Somerled the Viking' and it turns out that the large number in the sample decended from him - 23 per cent - carry a specific signature type within the Norse subgroup of M17. Somerled's own ancestors did indeed originate in Scandanavia. And the tradition lives on for Clan Donald have genotyped the chiefs of their various clan branches and they all carry the old Viking's marker.
Another large lineage cluster in the MacDonald sample has a very different origin. Around 12 per cent carry the classic R1b-Pict marker and it may be that they are descended from a powerful individual whose identity is now lost but who chose to join the Clan Doald and adopt the name. There are two mainland branches - McDonalds of Glengarry and Clan Ranald - and both have chiefs with the Somerled marker, but their followers may well be Pictish.

http://heritage.scotsman.com/heritage/Scotland39s-DNA-Who-do-you.6727434.jp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Isles








Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 09, 2011, 01:15:18 AM
I cannot find great numbers of group I in this MacDonald Project
http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/DNAresults.htm

The Rib's look very sustantial
Why wouldn't they look to an R1b group to represent Somerled?

Do you think someone can actually prove they are a direct descendant
of Somerled ? Some of the literature is in reference to 2004.





Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 09, 2011, 02:25:57 PM
The alleged Somerled haplotype is an R1a haplotype with the following markers in FTDNA order:

13    25    15    11    11    14    12    12    10    14    11    31    16    8    10    11    11    23    14    20    31    12    15    15    16

Of course, whether it actually belonged to Somerled himself depends on whether or not Bryan Sykes is right about it:

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/norse.htm (http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/norse.htm)


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: NealtheRed on May 09, 2011, 03:00:00 PM
The alleged Somerled haplotype is an R1a haplotype with the following markers in FTDNA order:

13    25    15    11    11    14    12    12    10    14    11    31    16    8    10    11    11    23    14    20    31    12    15    15    16

Of course, whether it actually belonged to Somerled himself depends on whether or not Bryan Sykes is right about it:

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/norse.htm (http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/norse.htm)

If Somerled himself is R1a1 or not appears to be just out of reach, since Clan Donald has not yet discovered a MacDougall with the haplotype - Dugall was one of the sons of Somerled, progenitor of Clan MacDougall. Clan Donald admits there may have been a non-paternal event, since Somerled is given a Connachta paternal ancestry.

I guess the Moffat/Wilson piece asserts L21 is a Gaelic marker in coastal Norway. I do not know if I buy that, but they underplayed S169's (L159.2) presence throughout the West coast of Scotland and Northern England. There are also at least six Norwegian men with the Irish Sea haplotype in the FTDNA databases. Can we now conclude that this many Gaels trekked to Norway?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: NealtheRed on May 09, 2011, 03:08:08 PM
I cannot find great numbers of group I in this MacDonald Project
http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/DNAresults.htm

The Rib's look very sustantial
Why wouldn't they look to an R1b group to represent Somerled?



I believe it is because a number of men from Clan Donald (including the current chief, Lord Godfrey) and its cadet branches (MacAlister, Clan Ranald, MacDonnell of Glengarry, etc.) have inherited a distinct, R1a1 haplotype that is found in Norway.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 09, 2011, 03:08:45 PM
. . .
I guess the Moffat/Wilson piece asserts L21 is a Gaelic marker in coastal Norway. I do not know if I buy that, but they underplayed S169's (L159.2) presence throughout the West coast of Scotland and Northern England. There are also at least six Norwegian men with the Irish Sea haplotype in the FTDNA databases. Can we now conclude that this many Gaels trekked to Norway?

Well, you know how they answer that: that the presence of L21 of any kind in Norway can be chalked up to the viking slave trade.

Absent a really thorough y-dna study of Norway (and perhaps of Scandinavia as a whole), how does one conclusively answer that?

As much as I do not like it, it's not a totally unreasonable theory. In fact, the presence of L159 in Norway only seems to lend credence to it.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: NealtheRed on May 09, 2011, 03:33:46 PM
. . .
I guess the Moffat/Wilson piece asserts L21 is a Gaelic marker in coastal Norway. I do not know if I buy that, but they underplayed S169's (L159.2) presence throughout the West coast of Scotland and Northern England. There are also at least six Norwegian men with the Irish Sea haplotype in the FTDNA databases. Can we now conclude that this many Gaels trekked to Norway?

Well, you know how they answer that: that the presence of L21 of any kind in Norway can be chalked up to the viking slave trade.

Absent a really thorough y-dna study of Norway (and perhaps of Scandinavia as a whole), how does one conclusively answer that?

As much as I do not like it, it's not a totally unreasonable theory. In fact, the presence of L159 in Norway only seems to lend credence to it.

I don't think it is impossible either, especially with downstream SNPs of L21, including L159. Yet there is too much L21 in Scandinavia in general to say all of it is from Scotland or Ireland.

To be honest, we can say the same thing about all currently discovered R1b-clades - they are more common in Britain/Ireland than in Scandinavia. Does this mean all Scandinavian R1b came from the British Isles?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: MHammers on May 09, 2011, 06:53:27 PM
In terms of variance and age estimates the Scandinavian L21 is more likely to be a late neolithic to bronze age expansion.  If the Scandinavian L21 were largely descended from thralls, we should see a very low variance and a few distinct str clusters, and maybe a Scandinavian-specific snp subclade given that the Viking age was only about 900-1200 years ago.  I don't see any of that in the data so far.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: NealtheRed on May 09, 2011, 07:52:15 PM
In terms of variance and age estimates the Scandinavian L21 is more likely to be a late neolithic to bronze age expansion.  If the Scandinavian L21 were largely descended from thralls, we should see a very low variance and a few distinct str clusters, and maybe a Scandinavian-specific snp subclade given that the Viking age was only about 900-1200 years ago.  I don't see any of that in the data so far.

I agree and would go so far to say that L21 was involved with Norse settlement in coastal Scandinavia - along with R1a1.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 09, 2011, 08:00:54 PM
. . .
I guess the Moffat/Wilson piece asserts L21 is a Gaelic marker in coastal Norway. I do not know if I buy that, but they underplayed S169's (L159.2) presence throughout the West coast of Scotland and Northern England. There are also at least six Norwegian men with the Irish Sea haplotype in the FTDNA databases. Can we now conclude that this many Gaels trekked to Norway?

Well, you know how they answer that: that the presence of L21 of any kind in Norway can be chalked up to the viking slave trade.

Absent a really thorough y-dna study of Norway (and perhaps of Scandinavia as a whole), how does one conclusively answer that?

As much as I do not like it, it's not a totally unreasonable theory. In fact, the presence of L159 in Norway only seems to lend credence to it.

I don't think it is impossible either, especially with downstream SNPs of L21, including L159. Yet there is too much L21 in Scandinavia in general to say all of it is from Scotland or Ireland.

To be honest, we can say the same thing about all currently discovered R1b-clades - they are more common in Britain/Ireland than in Scandinavia. Does this mean all Scandinavian R1b came from the British Isles?

The special problem L21 has is that it is massively present in Ireland, as well as hugely present in the rest of the British Isles. Therefore, it is kind of hard to make the argument that an L21 subclade like L159 that appears to be Irish (or at least some kind of Isles-ish) actually came from Scandinavia or is indigenous to Scandinavia.

It looks like it originated where it is most common and where it is most at home, surrounded by other kinds of L21, including thus-far undifferentiated R-L21*.

The presence of L159 in small amounts in Norway only makes it appear even more likely that the rest of the L21 also there came from somewhere in the British Isles.

I am not saying I like that scenario, but it makes a certain amount of sense.

Honestly, for the sake of our argument, we'd be better off if no L159 (or M222 or L226, etc.) were ever found in Scandinavia.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 09, 2011, 08:05:50 PM
In terms of variance and age estimates the Scandinavian L21 is more likely to be a late neolithic to bronze age expansion.  If the Scandinavian L21 were largely descended from thralls, we should see a very low variance and a few distinct str clusters, and maybe a Scandinavian-specific snp subclade given that the Viking age was only about 900-1200 years ago.  I don't see any of that in the data so far.

I agree. There were Beaker settlements in coastal SW Norway.

But the presence of younger subclades of L21 like L159, M222, L226, etc., in Norway weaken that argument, unfortunately. Those clades certainly appear to be specifically from the Isles.

Through a sort of guilt by association they implicate all of Scandinavian L21 in viking thralldom.



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: MHammers on May 09, 2011, 08:51:22 PM
I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 09, 2011, 08:57:03 PM
I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

I agree.

What we need is a specifically Scandinavian L21 subclade with very few or no British or Irish positives.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one though!


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: NealtheRed on May 09, 2011, 09:31:00 PM
I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

Well said. I think the L21 picture in Scandinavia is a bit more complex than sole thralldom. That sort of thing did happen, but I do not think it can account for every Scandinavian that belongs to such clusters.

Like Rich said, it complicates things. But again, L21 got a later start, so it is pretty much relegated to lower status. This is certainly true.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: NealtheRed on May 09, 2011, 09:32:55 PM
I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

I agree.

What we need is a specifically Scandinavian L21 subclade with very few or no British or Irish positives.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one though!

Even the S68 cluster is going to have more British members than Scandinavians. This just has to do with testing rates from the respective countries. I do, however, lend credence to Clan MacLeod's Norse founder theory.

EDIT: S68 is not an L21 cluster though


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 09, 2011, 11:18:31 PM
Dr. David Faux has a very interesting analysis of the book and this point in particular on rootsweb.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1299085388
I've read and re-read those posts.  I don't see anything of what I'd call an analysis. Has he broken the book down, or some piece of if it and assessed it somewhere? or just called upon excerpts from the book to support his views?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: MHammers on May 09, 2011, 11:20:13 PM
I ran a calculation from the 23 L21 Scandinavian members who had 67 markers.  I used 6 members who were unclustered or in the 'Blanks' category.  This was the largest group.  The other 17 fell into various clusters with 1 or 2 per cluster.  As a whole, they seem to come from several branches and probably at different times.

The intraclade for the 'Blanks' members was G=101+/-15 or 1030 BC (1480-580 BC).  This fits well with the Nordic and Atlantic bronze age networks.  I thought these might be from some of the oldest lines of L21 there as most of the clusters Mike has identified are calculated younger than 2000 years old.  

There is one Norwegian 9919-B cluster member and the age for that cluster is 2923+/-419 yrs as calculated by Alexander Williamson.  So, that makes 7 or 30% that might have a connection to the Bronze age.  Maybe there is more to the thrall impact or the Vikings and Normans carried alot of L21 to the Isles and founded some of these clusters themselves.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 09, 2011, 11:21:26 PM
In terms of variance and age estimates the Scandinavian L21 is more likely to be a late neolithic to bronze age expansion.  If the Scandinavian L21 were largely descended from thralls, we should see a very low variance and a few distinct str clusters, and maybe a Scandinavian-specific snp subclade given that the Viking age was only about 900-1200 years ago.  I don't see any of that in the data so far.
This is exactly what I see.  There are some Norwegian L21 folks that could be related to 1200 year old clusters, but there are some who do not.  It may be a mix, but even if it there is a Norwegian L21 person who is related to to an Isles person in the last 1200 years that doesn't mean they are Viking thralls. They could be. That's absolutely true, but they could also be pre- or  post-Viking merchants, traderrs, or other migrants in historic periods.

The most noteworthy I can see is that the M222+ proportions are much higher in Ireland than in Scandinavia.  That indicates that if all or most of the Norwegian L21 folks are descendants of Viking thralls, they didn't come from Ireland nor probably the low lands of Scotland.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 09, 2011, 11:32:03 PM
I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

I agree.

What we need is a specifically Scandinavian L21 subclade with very few or no British or Irish positives.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one though!
We have something close to this.  11-13 Combo Group B-1 which consists of a Norwegian and Luxembourg native. Although the GD's are not close, their P314.2+ puts them in a scattered and old category of people.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: MHammers on May 09, 2011, 11:44:47 PM
Also consider the Anglo-Saxon period in England.   In the bronze age, their ancestors could have come from Scandinavia or at least Denmark.  The Germanic tribes did migrate south starting around 500 BC.  This could have also moved a lot of L21 out of Scandinavia and eventually into the Isles in the form of Anglo-Saxon migrants hundreds of years later.  Instead of thralls and vikings, this might be the event that had the larger population impact for L21.  


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 10, 2011, 08:40:41 AM
I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

I agree.

What we need is a specifically Scandinavian L21 subclade with very few or no British or Irish positives.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one though!
We have something close to this.  11-13 Combo Group B-1 which consists of a Norwegian and Luxembourg native. Although the GD's are not close, their P314.2+ puts them in a scattered and old category of people.
I don't want to overstate this. I didn't mean to imply that R-P314.2 has more Continental or Scandinavian people.

As far actually finding a group in Scandinavia larger than in the Isles, I don't think that is likely to be found by our DNA projects. The percentage testing in the Isles is so much greater than in Scandinavia, plus the population of the Isles is much larger (like about 65M to 20M).

If you took those two factors into account, we might find that Norse/Benelux 11-13 Group B-1 is as large or larger than the rest of P314.2. That's why I said we might "have something close."

Without a true representative sampling, I think this is the nature of what we'll find.

From a public perception standpoint, I find it interesting that most people would look at something like P314.2 and feel like the two non-Isles folks must have lineages back to the Isles somehow. After all, they are L21+, right?

Here is a different example that I don't see as so much different. R-L165, which is P312+ but L21-.  Look at the project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

Looks pretty much like Scottish people and a few English, right? There is a Swedish guy at the bottom.

What does Ethnoancestry have to say about them:
Quote
S68 (L165): S68 defines a lineage in the S116* (P312*) paragroup. It appears to be a marker of Norse Viking ancestry in the British Isles and has been seen in Scandinavia, Orkney, Lewis, Skye, as well as in Fife.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

Ethnoancestry may be right. In fact, I think they probably are but I really don't know. However, the point is there is not much problem for people to accept that L165 is Scandinavian in origin. On the other hand P314.2 has a similar circumstance as far as Isles vs non-Isles but since it is L21+ I think most will perceive the non-Isles people must be from the Isles.



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 10, 2011, 09:38:40 AM
I wondered about L159.2's spread since c400AD.

It is found in Scotland and S/E Ireland. With a couple in the Continental Rhine area, and a few from Norway. 1 in Mann. I don't know of any other People besides the Norse who have colonized these places.

I imagine that Scotland, like North America was recolonized at large.

How many L21 variations do we have in North America compared with..say..Northern France? If our ancestors came to North America before surnames, would we be trying to figure out how we got to Europe from here?







Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Heber on May 10, 2011, 11:40:58 AM
Here is what Moffat and Wilson have to say about Norse haplogroups in Scotland:
"M17 was the first of a number of Norse Viking ancestry in the British Isles. S68 and S182 are smaller groups within the great M269 group and they appear to originate in Scandanavia and are mostly limited to the Northern and Western Isles of Scotland. S142 is more complex. It reaches its highest frequences in Scandanavia and is common in Denmark but quickly drops off further to the south. In Lewis there are many men with this particular marker, some in a group known as the Ultra-Norse - clearly one with Viking provenance".


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 10, 2011, 05:34:30 PM
I can see where the downstream clades are more likely with a thrall scenario.  Out of 35 members, I counted 3 L159+'s and 1 M222+ in the Yahoo project.  Also, I noticed 7 members are L159- and M222-, while 17 are just M222-, and 8 are undifferentiated L21+.  I think it's reasonable that a bronze age origin for some/maybe most Scandinavia L21 and a smaller back migration to Scandinavia of L21 thralls is possible.  I think the more these members can continue to test will give us a better picture.

I have thought for a long time that in terms of numbers in a cluster, one continental hit must be worth many time an isles hit due to the discrepancy of numbers in terms on European origins of people testing. I imagine that the proportion of isles testers to those from Norway must be totally overwhelming and one Norwegian hit must be worth what? 10 or 20 isles ones. Maybe that is an exaggeration but you know what I mean.

Alan

I agree.

What we need is a specifically Scandinavian L21 subclade with very few or no British or Irish positives.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one though!
We have something close to this.  11-13 Combo Group B-1 which consists of a Norwegian and Luxembourg native. Although the GD's are not close, their P314.2+ puts them in a scattered and old category of people.
I don't want to overstate this. I didn't mean to imply that R-P314.2 has more Continental or Scandinavian people.

As far actually finding a group in Scandinavia larger than in the Isles, I don't think that is likely to be found by our DNA projects. The percentage testing in the Isles is so much greater than in Scandinavia, plus the population of the Isles is much larger (like about 65M to 20M).

If you took those two factors into account, we might find that Norse/Benelux 11-13 Group B-1 is as large or larger than the rest of P314.2. That's why I said we might "have something close."

Without a true representative sampling, I think this is the nature of what we'll find.

From a public perception standpoint, I find it interesting that most people would look at something like P314.2 and feel like the two non-Isles folks must have lineages back to the Isles somehow. After all, they are L21+, right?

Here is a different example that I don't see as so much different. R-L165, which is P312+ but L21-.  Look at the project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

Looks pretty much like Scottish people and a few English, right? There is a Swedish guy at the bottom.

What does Ethnoancestry have to say about them:
Quote
S68 (L165): S68 defines a lineage in the S116* (P312*) paragroup. It appears to be a marker of Norse Viking ancestry in the British Isles and has been seen in Scandinavia, Orkney, Lewis, Skye, as well as in Fife.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

Ethnoancestry may be right. In fact, I think they probably are but I really don't know. However, the point is there is not much problem for people to accept that L165 is Scandinavian in origin. On the other hand P314.2 has a similar circumstance as far as Isles vs non-Isles but since it is L21+ I think most will perceive the non-Isles people must be from the Isles.




Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: NealtheRed on May 10, 2011, 06:46:48 PM
Looks pretty much like Scottish people and a few English, right? There is a Swedish guy at the bottom.

What does Ethnoancestry have to say about them:
Quote
S68 (L165): S68 defines a lineage in the S116* (P312*) paragroup. It appears to be a marker of Norse Viking ancestry in the British Isles and has been seen in Scandinavia, Orkney, Lewis, Skye, as well as in Fife.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

Ethnoancestry may be right. In fact, I think they probably are but I really don't know. However, the point is there is not much problem for people to accept that L165 is Scandinavian in origin. On the other hand P314.2 has a similar circumstance as far as Isles vs non-Isles but since it is L21+ I think most will perceive the non-Isles people must be from the Isles.



S68 is the group into which the main Clan MacLeod cluster falls. Clan history states they are of Norse origin - Leod is a son of Olaf the Black, King of Mann and the Isles.

However, I do not see how Ethnoancestry concluded that S68 is older in Scandinavia when we have only one Scandinavian fellow who is S68+. There are more Scottish and English folk who are S68+.

The same applies for S169/L159.2. Ethnoancestry claims it radiates from Ireland, when the most diverse haplotypes are actually from Argyll and the Inner Hebrides. It may be associated with the Laigin chieftains, but their signature looks far younger than the Highlanders. Moreover, one L159+ Norwegian has no close British matches; his only 37 marker match is another Norwegian.

I think the whole "Who is Norse and who is not?" is a marketing tool, and there is a double standard when it comes to L21 and S68.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 10, 2011, 11:43:30 PM
Looks pretty much like Scottish people and a few English, right? There is a Swedish guy at the bottom.

What does Ethnoancestry have to say about them:
Quote
S68 (L165): S68 defines a lineage in the S116* (P312*) paragroup. It appears to be a marker of Norse Viking ancestry in the British Isles and has been seen in Scandinavia, Orkney, Lewis, Skye, as well as in Fife.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

Ethnoancestry may be right. In fact, I think they probably are but I really don't know. However, the point is there is not much problem for people to accept that L165 is Scandinavian in origin. On the other hand P314.2 has a similar circumstance as far as Isles vs non-Isles but since it is L21+ I think most will perceive the non-Isles people must be from the Isles.
However, I do not see how Ethnoancestry concluded that S68 is older in Scandinavia when we have only one Scandinavian fellow who is S68+. There are more Scottish and English folk who are S68+.
I have my doubts about their analysis, but keep in mind they are not necessarily looking at FTDNA projects like what I showed you.  They have their own consumer database and perhaps access to research database.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 11, 2011, 01:02:52 PM
I had mentioned before that perhaps some haplo types in Norway were lost
in the black death period.

Black Death in Norway:
The old Icelandic annals tell that the Black Death came to Bergen, Norway, in 1349 with a ship from England.
The annals say that 2/3 of Norway's population died.

The article goes on to say...

"This is probably a big exaggeration. The mortality in Norway can hardly have been more than 40-50%. Even this is high compared with an estimated mortality of approximately 33% in England and on the continent.")
http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/2197762

Could losing even 1/3 of the population have changed the genetic diversity of some haplo groups, perhaps even L21, in Norway?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: llew_james on May 11, 2011, 07:01:20 PM
Is R-L21 found in Wales?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 11, 2011, 07:16:18 PM
Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: llew_james on May 11, 2011, 07:42:58 PM
Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.

When would it have arrived?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 11, 2011, 07:48:13 PM
Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.

When would it have arrived?

Probably with the Beaker Folk sometime in the 3rd - 2nd millennium BC.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: llew_james on May 11, 2011, 08:05:36 PM
Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.

When would it have arrived?

Probably with the Beaker Folk sometime in the 3rd - 2nd millennium BC.

Wouldn't the diversity be greater if it was the 3rd millennium BC?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 11, 2011, 08:07:44 PM
Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.

When would it have arrived?

Probably with the Beaker Folk sometime in the 3rd - 2nd millennium BC.

Wouldn't the diversity be greater if it was the 3rd millennium BC?

No. I believe the age estimates (Mike can confirm or refute this) put British Isles L21 right in that ballpark.

French L21 is older.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: llew_james on May 11, 2011, 08:09:24 PM
Is R-L21 found in Wales?

Absolutely. Wales is a hotspot for L21.

I don't think I would be overstepping in saying it is probably the most frequent y haplogroup in Wales.

When would it have arrived?

Probably with the Beaker Folk sometime in the 3rd - 2nd millennium BC.

Wouldn't the diversity be greater if it was the 3rd millennium BC?

No. I believe the age estimates (Mike can confirm or refute this) put British Isles L21 right in that ballpark.

French L21 is older.

They've aDNA to confirm this?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 11, 2011, 08:15:36 PM


They've aDNA to confirm this?

No, of course not.

Do you know of ANY aDNA findings for ANY y haplogroup as far south on the tree as L21?

Right now haplotype variance is all we have.

Given the current state of ancient y-dna testing - we're lucky if we get any y-dna results at all, let alone SNPs - it may be quite some time before we get aDNA confirmation of anyone's theories.

The Beaker Folk theory could very well be wrong. But it seems to make the most sense right now, given what we know.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Heber on May 12, 2011, 09:38:22 AM
From The Scots, a Genetic Journey:

"Preliminary indications of the ancestry of the Norman families who came to Scotland are very interesting. Given that the Duchy of Normandy was founded by the Vikings, famously by Gongu-Hrolf, it might be assumed  that Norman and Norse descent could be mixed and difficult to disentangle. But in fact a brief survey of several Norman-French surnames in Scotland has shown up little or no M17 and it looks as though these people brought French bloodlines to Scotland rather than more Vikings.
Nevertheless, there are some wonderful discoveries to be made about lineages amongst the northern clans.

Quote
S68 is the group into which the main Clan MacLeod cluster falls. Clan history states they are of Norse origin - Leod is a son of Olaf the Black, King of Mann and the Isles.

"Clan McLeod traditionally recognised their Norse ancestry and an analysis of their DNA is rewarding. From a sample of 45 Mcleod Y chromosomes, almost half - 47 per cent - clearly show social selection at work in that they descend from one individual. If this statistic is projected amongst the total number of MacLeods, it means that almost 10,000 men are descended from this individual. Amongst the remaining 53 per cent, researchers have found only nine other lineages prescent, showing that MacLeod men married women who were unfailingly faithful to them!
However the MacLeods do not carry the M17 marker group. Theirs is a recently discovered subgroup labeled S68. It is found in Lewis, Harris and Skye, core MacLeod territory, but also in Orkney, Shetland and Norway, with a few examples in Sweden. Despite extensive screening S68 is very specifically located showing up only once in the east of Scotland and once in England. This is a classic pattern for a Viking marker in Britain but one much rarer than M17. MacLeods determinedly claim descent from a common name father, a Norse aristocrat called Ljot, a relative of Olaf, King of Mann. They are probably right to continue to claim that - science, for once, is supporting tradition".


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 12, 2011, 12:57:51 PM
I thought Norse and Normans were from the same. Though some are  Danes, and others Norwegian and Swedes.

When it comes to tracing back to a named individual 1000 or so years ago in the Isles, I don't think the "science" is sound enough to call it scientific proof.
(just my opinion)



  


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 12, 2011, 05:16:19 PM
I thought Norse and Normans were from the same. Though some are  Danes, and others Norwegian and Swedes.
No.

A little depends on how you define things. I think it is a normal to consider the Norse to be Scandinavian people before the Christianization of Scandinavia. As for Normans, I think, at least from a perspective of the English, it would be the people who immigrated in during the 11th and 12th century from Normandy, which is in France.

Normandy was establish by Norsemen (Rollo et al) during the 10th century but they blended into some degree with the local people including any or all of these: The Gauls, the Bretons, the Flemish and the Franks. By the time some of the came to England, the people of Normandy were definitely mixed. The spoke French so there obviously was a heavy Romano-Gallic influence.

At least in my opinion, a Norman could have an older Norseman lineage, but could also have an older Gallic, Breton or Flemish lineage as well.



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 12, 2011, 07:10:30 PM
I don't know what the estimates are for Norse or Danish immigration to Normandy during the Viking Era, but, personally, I suspect it wasn't all that much. Probably a thin elite veneer over a much larger native Gallic population.

I know the Normandy Y-DNA Project is still pretty small, but thus far it looks pretty typical for northern France, i.e., there's not a lot of obvious Scandinavian stuff, no great numbers of I1s or R1as, for example. In fact, thus far, R-L21 is the most frequent y haplogroup.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: NealtheRed on May 12, 2011, 09:07:25 PM
I don't know what the estimates are for Norse or Danish immigration to Normandy during the Viking Era, but, personally, I suspect it wasn't all that much. Probably a thin elite veneer over a much larger native Gallic population.

I know the Normandy Y-DNA Project is still pretty small, but thus far it looks pretty typical for northern France, i.e., there's not a lot of obvious Scandinavian stuff, no great numbers of I1s or R1as, for example. In fact, thus far, R-L21 is the most frequent y haplogroup.

This makes perfect sense. Moreover, one of the most prominent Breton lineages that came to Britain through the Norman invasion was the Stewart dynasty - which if I am not mistaken has been deduced to be R1b-L21 (via the Stewart DNA Project).


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 13, 2011, 06:14:27 PM
Do you think it is odd that there is no L21+ in northern Italy?

Perhaps there were no L21+ males with the Lombards nor the Franks?
Or perhaps the Lombards and Franks left no genetic trace of on the south side of the Alps.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: llew_james on May 13, 2011, 07:02:52 PM
I don't know what the estimates are for Norse or Danish immigration to Normandy during the Viking Era, but, personally, I suspect it wasn't all that much. Probably a thin elite veneer over a much larger native Gallic population.

I know the Normandy Y-DNA Project is still pretty small, but thus far it looks pretty typical for northern France, i.e., there's not a lot of obvious Scandinavian stuff, no great numbers of I1s or R1as, for example. In fact, thus far, R-L21 is the most frequent y haplogroup.

Is there any R-L21 in Scandinavia?


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 13, 2011, 10:40:03 PM
Do you think it is odd that there is no L21+ in northern Italy?

Perhaps there were no L21+ males with the Lombards nor the Franks?
Or perhaps the Lombards and Franks left no genetic trace of on the south side of the Alps.

There is some L21 in northern Italy, at least three thus far. That's not much, but it's not zero.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 13, 2011, 10:42:37 PM
I don't know what the estimates are for Norse or Danish immigration to Normandy during the Viking Era, but, personally, I suspect it wasn't all that much. Probably a thin elite veneer over a much larger native Gallic population.

I know the Normandy Y-DNA Project is still pretty small, but thus far it looks pretty typical for northern France, i.e., there's not a lot of obvious Scandinavian stuff, no great numbers of I1s or R1as, for example. In fact, thus far, R-L21 is the most frequent y haplogroup.

Is there any R-L21 in Scandinavia?

Yes, quite a lot, especially in Norway.

http://tinyurl.com/3jcd3rp (http://tinyurl.com/3jcd3rp)


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 14, 2011, 04:23:45 PM
Thanks Rich. I thought there was only one L21+ from Sicily.


 




Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 15, 2011, 11:13:21 AM
Do you think it is odd that there is no L21+ in northern Italy?

Perhaps there were no L21+ males with the Lombards nor the Franks?
Or perhaps the Lombards and Franks left no genetic trace of on the south side of the Alps.

The origin area of the Franks in the Germanic speaking part of the Low Countries is one with high U106 and low L21.  I wouldnt expect much L21 among the Franks.  The Lombards seem to have originated on the Lower Elbe too, hardly an L21 hotpsot.   


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 15, 2011, 12:32:01 PM
if L21 was around France for 3000+ years I would suspect there should be more of them around the European continent. Not just in the N/W France and some down the Rhine.

If L21 was so successfull in the Isles what prevented them from spreading
east of the Rhine during Celtic times?

I doubt all the Frank's soldiers were from the Lower Elbe area. They were of many groups. They controlled all of France and Gernamy before entering Italy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neustria
The territory of Neustria or Neustrasia, meaning "new [western] land", originated in 511, made up of the regions from Aquitaine to the English Channel, approximating most of the north of present-day France, with Paris and Soissons as its main cities (which is roughly the current size of England and Wales). Thus Neustria formed the western part of the kingdom of the Franks[1] under the rule of the Merovingian dynasty during the sixth to eighth centuries


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marches_of_Neustria#Norman_march
The Normans gradually expanded their territory and incorporated much of Neustria into it. When the margrave of Neustria became king in 987, the history of the march ended, to be replaced by the history of the various comital fiefs which were to rise in power within it.

So how does L21+ fit into the picture if they were in France for 3000 years?
Or could L21+ at large be from the Normans?



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 15, 2011, 01:44:12 PM
 I think the predominance of L21 in the Atlantic areas of the isles  is strong indirect evidence that L21 was the FIRST S116 clade to reach NW France.  It is almost impossible to think that the predominance of L21 in Ireland, Wales and western Scotland is not down to a similar predominance of L21 on the nearest part of the continent (NW France).  If there was a mix of clades in the adjacent part of the continent on the main sailing routes to the isles we would not have ended up with such a dominance of one clade among not only the Irish but the Welsh and western Scots too.  The source population of these peoples must have in all three cases been predominantly L21.  The simplest explanation is that NW France was, as it is today, high in L21 and this characteristic was passed onto the Atlantic parts of the isles.  Indeed, even today, NW France is the only identifiable area of L21 dominance on the continent.  I strongly suspect that that dominance is very ancient.  Certainly at the moment variance would support a model of L21 first occuring in north-central or east-central France, expanding as it passed east and north into NW France and passing onto the isles shortly afterwards. 

I do not expect much L21 was located east of the Rhine or south or east of the western Alps, an area which I think U152 largely sewed up in the early days when it existed but L21 SNP had not even occurred.  I think the peak areas of clades relate to the areas where each found themselves in a position to expand without much competition.  For U152 that was SE France, the Alps, Italy etc.  For L21 that was NW France and the isles.  Being 'first in' was an advantage that created a bedrock that was not generally altered much in later times.  Clearly there was later movement too but I think the basic pattern we see today was probably set in stone during the first spread of L11 into western Europe.  


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 15, 2011, 06:45:38 PM
I think the predominance of L21 in the Atlantic areas of the isles  is strong indirect evidence that L21 was the FIRST S116 clade to reach NW France . . .  

I just wanted to emphasize that you are saying L21 was the first S116 (P312) clade in NW France and the British Isles and not that it was the first y haplogroup to arrive in those places.

People are easily confused and the old "Cro-Magnon R1b" bugaboo is still out there floating around the internet and in Oppenheimer's and Sykes' books.



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 15, 2011, 10:36:25 PM
if L21 was around France for 3000+ years I would suspect there should be more of them around the European continent. Not just in the N/W France and some down the Rhine.

If L21 was so successfull in the Isles what prevented them from spreading
east of the Rhine during Celtic times?
I think, very simplistically, what blocked L21 to the east was brother U152 and to the northeast U106. Perhaps some forms of P312* blocked L21 to the south. That's it.

L21 did leak east into Germany, north into Norway and even south into Iberia. However, the clean path of least resistance (or of most desire) was northwest through France and across the channel.  What was going on?  Perhaps it was a secondary spread of farming, or perhaps the secondary products of agriculture revolution, or perhaps metalworking and Indo-European hegemony systems.

If the brothers and cousins had the same technologies, there may have been no use to go compete with them, but the Isles may have been wide open to dominance by the new practices.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 15, 2011, 10:41:49 PM
People are easily confused and the old "Cro-Magnon R1b" bugaboo is still out there floating around the internet and in Oppenheimer's and Sykes' books.
Rich, you'll love this. My understanding, via elite English academics, is that Oppenheimer has a new "paridigm" that the true Celtics are some of form of Hg I and, in keeping with his old view, R1b was long present in the Isles and along the Atlantic, coming out of Iberia, before the Celticism ensued.

I've purchased and read Oppenheimer before but I refuse to follow any of his new stuff unless someone can confirm that he is accounting for the configuration and variance among P312 subclades. His history is he is behind the times and he doesn't follow normal research practices of fully disclosing data, etc. I'm not saying he is a bad author, but I don't need to be a repeat customer.

Oh yes, we should also expect a new paper from our Russian-American friend on R1b. I haven't read it all through yet.  I appreciate that he analyzes our subclades, regardless of his conclusions. The more attention, the better, I think. The truth will be exposed with more data and lots of analysis.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 15, 2011, 10:56:59 PM
I think the predominance of L21 in the Atlantic areas of the isles  is strong indirect evidence that L21 was the FIRST S116 clade to reach NW France.
I think you are right, but be careful. By the same general logic, Hg I should predominant along the Atlantic fringe of the Isles.

I'm not saying he is right, but he is smart. One of of Vince V's suppositions was that he thought U106 came first and P312 came and washed over U106's territories, taking over where U106 was a little sparse, but leaving U106 "hot spots" behind like sand castles washed over by the P312 wave.

If such a scenario could happen, it would only be natural for the P312 wave to wash all the way to the Atlantic.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: OConnor on May 16, 2011, 03:47:32 PM
I wondered if France's L21 came directly from Norway/Scandinavian parts?

If Norway housed the older L21 sequences they could have brought them directly to (France)Normandy 9/10th century, making France's L21 look older then the Scot/Irish type which I suspected had left Scandinavia earlier 7or 8th century.

The plague of 1349 may have snuffed out some old L21 lines in Norway.
http://www.britannica.com/facts/5/188708/Black-Death-as-discussed-in-Norway.

It may seem a strange thought ?..but I guess we should ponder all ideas.





Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 16, 2011, 05:35:13 PM
if L21 was around France for 3000+ years I would suspect there should be more of them around the European continent. Not just in the N/W France and some down the Rhine.

If L21 was so successfull in the Isles what prevented them from spreading
east of the Rhine during Celtic times?
I think, very simplistically, what blocked L21 to the east was brother U152 and to the northeast U106. Perhaps some forms of P312* blocked L21 to the south. That's it.

L21 did leak east into Germany, north into Norway and even south into Iberia. However, the clean path of least resistance (or of most desire) was northwest through France and across the channel.  What was going on?  Perhaps it was a secondary spread of farming, or perhaps the secondary products of agriculture revolution, or perhaps metalworking and Indo-European hegemony systems.

If the brothers and cousins had the same technologies, there may have been no use to go compete with them, but the Isles may have been wide open to dominance by the new practices.

I agree.  it a point I have raised before.  At the time of the expansion of L11 (which seems rapid) I can see no real way that with such a recent common ancestor that L11*. S116*, L21, U152 etc could have been anything other than virtually identical in terms of language, technology, social structure etc.  Noone possessed any advantage over anyone else in the L11 expansion. So, I think it really was important which clade was first on the spot in any given place.  It may have set the clade 'bedrock' in many areas. It seems U152 was a little older than L21 and even a couple of centuries of a head start would have been enough for L21 to have to seek expansion elsewhere at more of a remove from the S116 origin point than U152.  I suspect as per Myres that U106 exploded in NE Europe and would not have clashed with U152 for a long time.  I suspect the U152-U106 frontier in the Low Countries (basically along the Rhine) may date all the way back to a time where U106 moving west met U152 moving north up the Rhine.  I think L21 took a west turn and maybe prospered to be the first clade to push onto Atlantic France.  Personally I suspect the main L21 expansion was linked to the spread of farming into the Atlantic NW of France in the middle Neolithic, shortly before farming spread to the British Isles.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 16, 2011, 07:21:48 PM
People are easily confused and the old "Cro-Magnon R1b" bugaboo is still out there floating around the internet and in Oppenheimer's and Sykes' books.
Rich, you'll love this. My understanding, via elite English academics, is that Oppenheimer has a new "paridigm" that the true Celtics are some of form of Hg I and, in keeping with his old view, R1b was long present in the Isles and along the Atlantic, coming out of Iberia, before the Celticism ensued.

I've purchased and read Oppenheimer before but I refuse to follow any of his new stuff unless someone can confirm that he is accounting for the configuration and variance among P312 subclades. His history is he is behind the times and he doesn't follow normal research practices of fully disclosing data, etc. I'm not saying he is a bad author, but I don't need to be a repeat customer.

The real problem with what Oppenheimer does is that he popularizes wrongheaded ideas.

He'll set the average person back several years with an idea like that.

Oh yes, we should also expect a new paper from our Russian-American friend on R1b. I haven't read it all through yet.  I appreciate that he analyzes our subclades, regardless of his conclusions. The more attention, the better, I think. The truth will be exposed with more data and lots of analysis.

I saw Dr. Klyosov on tv a few weeks ago (or maybe a month ago?). We get some Russian tv channels (my wife is Russian). I was watching the news broadcast Vremya (literally, "Time"), and there was Anatole Klyosov in a spot about early users of the worldwide web. I was startled when the segment started and it showed a man's hands at a computer keyboard typing something in English about L21!

My Russian is not that good, but he didn't really talk about genetics. The segment was about the internet.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 19, 2011, 08:16:20 PM
Got my copy of The Scots: A Genetic Journey, by Moffat and Wilson, in the mail today. I've just started reading but haven't gotten far yet.

Should be interesting.



Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 20, 2011, 12:24:50 PM
One thing I think that is being overlooked is that almost all L21 clades SNPs and clusters seem to be from the last 1000-2000 years if we believe the normal hobbiest dating.  The latter suggests L21 was perhaps a max  of 4500 years old.  We can at least look at this in terms of relative age of L21 and its main clusters.  This reveals for much of L21's existence (lets say half to two thirds) it was not forming any lasting clusters or producing surviving clade defining SNPs.  This suggests that for much of its existence L21 was not located in a society of the Niall type chiefdoms hogging reproduction.  This suggests to me that L21 after a quick spread through France and the isles was for a very long time located in a society that was not dominated by big hierarchical expanding royal lineages in the way that Irish, Scottish and Welsh society was in post-Roman/Medieval times.  When clustering did happen it was late and was restricted to the Celtic fringes of the isles (the exceptions being Medieval Iberian and Jewish clusters on the continent).

I think the significance of this is being overlooked.  Why for more than half of its existence did L21 not cluster and why was there a hiatus of SNPs between L21 and the AD period? Indeed, I think that a similar lack of clustering is also the case for U152 after its early days.  In short it seems that L21 for a considerable chunk of its existence was not located in a society of aggressive expanding lineages and this is probably true for U152.  I understand clustering is absent in L21 in France where it is oldest.  

PS It has only just occurred to me that the apparent lack of clustering or SNPs in L21 in the first half or more of its existence is evidence against an elite dominance scenario.  It would more suggest actual ordinary relatively non-hierarchical settlement of the first farmers type rather than a model of mega breeding of high status beaker lineages.  This to me is potentially evidence in favour of the early farmers model of the spread of L21.   


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 20, 2011, 06:06:21 PM
Got my copy of The Scots: A Genetic Journey, by Moffat and Wilson, in the mail today. I've just started reading but haven't gotten far yet.

Should be interesting.



It has a lot of inconsistencies (especially regarding its interpretation of R1b in the isles) but it is a very interesting book with some new information about the distribution of clades in Britain. 


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: rms2 on May 20, 2011, 07:46:45 PM
Got my copy of The Scots: A Genetic Journey, by Moffat and Wilson, in the mail today. I've just started reading but haven't gotten far yet.

Should be interesting.



It has a lot of inconsistencies (especially regarding its interpretation of R1b in the isles) but it is a very interesting book with some new information about the distribution of clades in Britain. 

I haven't gotten to the real meat of it yet. I'm still trudging through all the stuff about the French and Spanish cave paintings, the last Ice Age, exploding volcanoes, etc. I was hoping to read a lot on the train this evening, but it was so crowded I didn't get to sit down until I was nearly home.


Title: Re: L21: Its Age and Where it is Oldest
Post by: llew_james on June 16, 2011, 08:08:58 PM
How many people actually take notice of these genetic studies?