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Title: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 07, 2010, 01:20:38 PM
I'm still gathering data on this but there is some new news so I'll get this thread started.  Originally I was going to use the topic title has an attention-getter due to the Myres high frequency (5%) found in Germany. Then I was going to sub-title something a little milder and go into the data related to England vis-à-vis Ireland and Scotland.

However, the new news is a couple of new M222 folks showed up in the Germany DNA project... so maybe I shouldn't write this off so quickly. I was really thinking England as the origin, but perhaps Jean M's La Tene speculative proposal, or something like it, has some merit.

I guess, it shouldn't be so surprising if M222's from Germany don't happen to join the "Northwest Irish" project. Maybe they are the "NW Irish/Continental" guys? We already have some "Irish Type IV/Continental" folks. LOL.

I still think the Myres data for Germany is challenging. Perhaps they sampled a location which is M222 HQ there, but regardless, there should be a lot more L21* projected across Germany as a whole than M222.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 07, 2010, 04:18:04 PM
Interesting thought. I'll look at the Myers data again. 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: NealtheRed on October 07, 2010, 07:15:51 PM
I'm still gathering data on this but there is some new news so I'll get this thread started.  Originally I was going to use the topic title has an attention-getter due to the Myres high frequency (5%) found in Germany. Then I was going to sub-title something a little milder and go into the data related to England vis-à-vis Ireland and Scotland.

However, the new news is a couple of new M222 folks showed up in the Germany DNA project... so maybe I shouldn't write this off so quickly. I was really thinking England as the origin, but perhaps Jean M's La Tene speculative proposal, or something like it, has some merit.

I guess, it shouldn't be so surprising if M222's from Germany don't happen to join the "Northwest Irish" project. Maybe they are the "NW Irish/Continental" guys? We already have some "Irish Type IV/Continental" folks. LOL.

I still think the Myres data for Germany is challenging. Perhaps they sampled a location which is M222 HQ there, but regardless, there should be a lot more L21* projected across Germany as a whole than M222.

Maybe this will shed more light on where the Gaelic tribes came from before Ireland.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: eochaidh on October 07, 2010, 07:18:31 PM
It has to be Bavarian. Isn't the general rule that SNPs move from east to west, and that the origin of an SNP is never in the hotspot? This would make Bavaria much more likely than Ireland.

Plus, isn't it the absolute rule that there has never been any genetic trace from Ireland found on the Continent? It seems that even the suggestion that any man ever left Ireland, or was taken from Ireland to the extent that his descendants would leave a genetic trace is considered the most laughable proposal imaginable! Let's just make it a closed subject: no man ever left, or was taken from Ireland to the Continent.

You are opening yourself to an onslaught from the 'randy Irish monk" crowd. Bavaria is the only safe choice here....

Thanks, Miles Kehoe (Bavarian)


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: rms2 on October 07, 2010, 07:54:22 PM
It has to be Bavarian. Isn't the general rule that SNPs move from east to west, and that the origin of an SNP is never in the hotspot? This would make Bavaria much more likely than Ireland.

Plus, isn't it the absolute rule that there has never been any genetic trace from Ireland found on the Continent? It seems that even the suggestion that any man ever left Ireland, or was taken from Ireland to the extent that his descendants would leave a genetic trace is considered the most laughable proposal imaginable! Let's just make it a closed subject: no man ever left, or was taken from Ireland to the Continent.

You are opening yourself to an onslaught from the 'randy Irish monk" crowd. Bavaria is the only safe choice here....

Thanks, Miles Kehoe (Bavarian)

Time to stop all that baloney.



Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: eochaidh on October 07, 2010, 09:03:57 PM
It has to be Bavarian. Isn't the general rule that SNPs move from east to west, and that the origin of an SNP is never in the hotspot? This would make Bavaria much more likely than Ireland.

Plus, isn't it the absolute rule that there has never been any genetic trace from Ireland found on the Continent? It seems that even the suggestion that any man ever left Ireland, or was taken from Ireland to the extent that his descendants would leave a genetic trace is considered the most laughable proposal imaginable! Let's just make it a closed subject: no man ever left, or was taken from Ireland to the Continent.

You are opening yourself to an onslaught from the 'randy Irish monk" crowd. Bavaria is the only safe choice here....

Thanks, Miles Kehoe (Bavarian)

Time to stop all that baloney.



If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 08, 2010, 08:22:26 AM
Maybe this will shed more light on where the Gaelic tribes came from before Ireland.

Let's not start generalising from M222, which is not the only, or even the majority, SNP in Ireland.

In my view the first people to bring a Celtic language to Ireland were Bell Beaker folk c. 2,400 BC. From archaeological evidence, as well as genetic, the bulk of them probably came down the Rhine corridor,  then from somewhere along the coast took to the sea to spread around the SW tip of Britain to settle in Ireland and western Britain. However it looks as though the first Bell Beaker people to reach Ireland came up the Atlantic coast to Brittany and across to Ireland from there.

M222 arrived much later - probably around 200 BC with La Tene material in northern Ireland. The La Tene influence came from centres between the Middle Rhine and Seine. It is conceivable that M222 actually occurred in the La Tene heartland and spread from there into Britain and from Britain to Northern Ireland. 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 08, 2010, 08:26:53 AM
If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

Do stop sulking Miles. The ancestors of the Irish had to arrive from somewhere. Does it really distress you deeply to discover that places your ancestors crossed thousands of years ago are no longer Celtic speaking? They were at the time.  Nor are these places all called Ireland. Perhaps in your mind they should be. But that would be pretty confusing for the postman.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 08, 2010, 09:07:35 AM
If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.
Here is an example of an SNP that is found both heavily in Ireland but also with a significant presence in Germany: L21+.  Lo and behold, it's M222's father/grandfather.

No SNP is Irish or German. They are just mutations on the Y chromosome. They just are.  .... and many occurred long before anyone called themselves Irish or German.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: eochaidh on October 08, 2010, 09:37:54 AM
If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.
Here is an example of an SNP that is found both heavily in Ireland but also with a significant presence in Germany: L21+.  Lo and behold, it's M222's father/grandfather.

No SNP is Irish or German. They are just mutations on the Y chromosome. They just are.  .... and many occurred long before anyone called themselves Irish or German.

Specifically, though, if the M222 mutation did occur in what is now Ireland, how could it have spread to what is now Bavaria?

The speculation that the M222 mutation originated in what is now Bavaria and migrated to what is now Ireland by the La Tene culture is on the table, so, I am asking what is the speculation if the migration was in reverse (what is now Ireland to what is now Bavaria). I'm just asking someone give speculative examples of how it might have happened.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 08, 2010, 10:53:29 AM
Specifically, though, if the M222 mutation did occur in what is now Ireland, how could it have spread to what is now Bavaria?

This is the problem. I can't think of one. I wouldn't be surprised to find some descendants of Irishmen in districts where Irish regiments (http://www.napoleonguide.com/books_osp_penregi1.htm) were quartered during the Napoleonic Wars. But that doesn't take us into Germany. Nor would I expect a huge impact on an already dense population in France and Spain. 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 08, 2010, 11:18:06 AM
@ Mikewww Where are you getting Bavaria as the specific source?  Looking at Myres table S4, I see a sample of 19 men from Germany, one of whom was R-M222. The source is given as three papers, starting with Myres NM, Ekins JE, Lin AA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Woodward SR, Underhill PA: Y-chromosome short tandem repeat DYS458.2 non-consensus alleles occur independently in both binary haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405, Croat Med J (2007); 48: 450-459.

Anybody seen that? It's OK. I've got it. Taking a look now.



Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: eochaidh on October 08, 2010, 11:23:08 AM
Specifically, though, if the M222 mutation did occur in what is now Ireland, how could it have spread to what is now Bavaria?

This is the problem. I can't think of one. I wouldn't be surprised to find some descendants of Irishmen in districts where Irish regiments (http://www.napoleonguide.com/books_osp_penregi1.htm) were quartered during the Napoleonic Wars. But that doesn't take us into Germany. Nor would I expect a huge impact on an already dense population in France and Spain. 

Then you are in complete agreement with me. The only answer is that M222 originated in what is now Bavaria and migrated to what is now Ireland. How is this sulking on my part?

I have stated several times that there is no possible way that genetics could have migrated out of what is now Ireland to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 08, 2010, 11:42:04 AM
Then you are in complete agreement with me. The only answer is that M222 originated in what is now Bavaria and migrated to what is now Ireland.

No it isn't. So far we are dealing with three men, as far as I can work out, one from the study, and two noted in the top post. This is not enough to build a theory on, let alone a certainty. What's going on here is a little light speculation.

Quote
How is this sulking on my part? I have stated several times that there is no possible way that genetics could have migrated out of what is now Ireland to the Continent.

Yes Miles - you say it with heavy sarcasm any time a discussion starts about the movement of L21 and M222.  :) Given that you are not talking to idiots, we all know that you are attempting a reductio ad absurdum. It gets wearing. It is accepted by any sane person that the Irish have left Ireland in their millions. Although most of these emigrants headed for England, the US and other former British colonies, significant numbers went to Continental Europe at various times, for various reasons. I could probably compile a list if I had the time. There were Irish religious and political refugees, plus I think Irish navvies working on the construction of some French railways.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 08, 2010, 12:07:08 PM
Looking at Myres table S4, I see a sample of 19 men from Germany, one of whom was R-M222. The source is given as three papers, starting with Myres NM, Ekins JE, Lin AA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Woodward SR, Underhill PA: Y-chromosome short tandem repeat DYS458.2 non-consensus alleles occur independently in both binary haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405, Croat Med J (2007); 48: 450-459.

Anybody seen that? It's OK. I've got it. Taking a look now.

The samples were from the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation. They had a sample of 333 from Germany. The total from Germany in the present study is 321. So what they have done is re-tested those samples for other SNPS, rejected a few I assume for technical reasons, and broken the rest into regional categories, where possible. That left them with 19 which could not be allocated firmly to a region and so were lumped together as just "Germany" of which 1 was M222. So the percentage is actually 1 out of 321 from Germany.  


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: eochaidh on October 08, 2010, 12:07:24 PM
Then you are in complete agreement with me. The only answer is that M222 originated in what is now Bavaria and migrated to what is now Ireland.

No it isn't. So far we are dealing with three men, as far as I can work out, one from the study, and two noted in the top post. This is not enough to build a theory on, let alone a certainty. What's going on here is a little light speculation.

Quote
How is this sulking on my part? I have stated several times that there is no possible way that genetics could have migrated out of what is now Ireland to the Continent.

Yes Miles - you say it with heavy sarcasm any time a discussion starts about the movement of L21 and M222.  :) Given that you are not talking to idiots, we all know that you are attempting a reductio ad absurdium. It gets wearing. It is accepted by any sane person that the Irish have left Ireland in their millions. Although most of these emigrants headed for England, the US and other former British colonies, significant numbers went to Continental Europe at various times, for various reasons. I could probably compile a list if I had the time. There were Irish religious and political refugees, plus I think Irish navvies working on the construction of some French railways.

I find terms like "randy Irish Monks" wearing and insulting, but no one ever seems to speak out against their use. The idea that the "Wild Geese" might have left a genetic mark is also roundly mocked, and I find that wearing. By the way, I am not one who has offered the Irish Monk or Wild Geese speculation.

Speculation is fine. Argument is fine. Mocking any suggestion that the Irish could have left any genetic mark on the Continent is wearing.

Jean, perhaps you could help me rid the forums of the term "randy Irish monks". My lovely Irish Catholic parents would have been disgusted by the term.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 08, 2010, 12:07:46 PM
reductio ad absurdium

reductio ad absurdum

Thank you. Correcting.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 08, 2010, 12:11:56 PM
I find terms like "randy Irish Monks" wearing and insulting, but no one ever seems to speak out against their use.

I have seen that phase used, but assumed that this was another example of heavy sarcasm - mocking the idea that large amounts of L21 could be spread by the Culdees, who seemed to be in flight from human contact, or other ascetic types. 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jdean on October 08, 2010, 01:35:09 PM
The samples were from the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation. They had a sample of 333 from Germany. The total from Germany in the present study is 321. So what they have done is re-tested those samples for other SNPS, rejected a few I assume for technical reasons, and broken the rest into regional categories, where possible. That left them with 19 which could not be allocated firmly to a region and so were lumped together as just "Germany" of which 1 was M222. So the percentage is actually 1 out of 321 from Germany.  

Ah the inconsistency we were looking for, that makes a lot more sense now :)


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: A.D. on October 08, 2010, 03:09:55 PM
Would not Irish monks have been accompanied by others maybe soldiers.
they were obviously sent by someone of a degree of importance and either the monks or their mission was worth protecting.
Also some of the Celtic Knotword' designs found in The Book of Kells are of Rhineland origin.
There has always been movement in and out of Ireland.
I mean the 1st guy to find Ireland went back where he came from to tell his mates or there'd be no one in Ireland.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: A.D. on October 08, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
Has anyone read this http://www.clannada.org/time_early_lateneo.php


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 08, 2010, 03:52:46 PM
@ Mikewww Where are you getting Bavaria as the specific source?  Looking at Myres table S4, I see a sample of 19 men from Germany, one of whom was R-M222. The source is given as three papers, starting with Myres NM, Ekins JE, Lin AA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Woodward SR, Underhill PA: Y-chromosome short tandem repeat DYS458.2 non-consensus alleles occur independently in both binary haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405, Croat Med J (2007); 48: 450-459.
Anybody seen that? It's OK. I've got it. Taking a look now.
No, no... Bavaria means nothing.. that was just a play using the word "Northwest" since Northwest Germany doesn't fit and we (or at least I don't) know where Myres' mysterious German M222 are really.  I was not intending to be specific to Bavaria.

Please let us know if the other three papers provide anything more specific.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 08, 2010, 04:01:56 PM
Looking at Myres table S4, I see a sample of 19 men from Germany, one of whom was R-M222. The source is given as three papers, starting with Myres NM, Ekins JE, Lin AA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Woodward SR, Underhill PA: Y-chromosome short tandem repeat DYS458.2 non-consensus alleles occur independently in both binary haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405, Croat Med J (2007); 48: 450-459.

Anybody seen that? It's OK. I've got it. Taking a look now.

The samples were from the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation. They had a sample of 333 from Germany. The total from Germany in the present study is 321. So what they have done is re-tested those samples for other SNPS, rejected a few I assume for technical reasons, and broken the rest into regional categories, where possible. That left them with 19 which could not be allocated firmly to a region and so were lumped together as just "Germany" of which 1 was M222. So the percentage is actually 1 out of 321 from Germany.  
Oh my gosh!  Thanks for the detective work. These guys need to be a little clearer on their tables, lables and foot notes.

I wonder if they might have thought about calling the category, "unknown German locations", rather than "Germany." Also sometimes a box needs to be marked "N/A" rather than populated with a meaningless statistic like a frequency of 5% of unknown German locations.

Nevetheless, I won't close the door on an early expansion of M222  possibly being on the continent.  It is showing up there...   but not enough to discuss any meaningful data.   However, England may be a different story.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 08, 2010, 04:33:49 PM
Would not Irish monks have been accompanied by others maybe soldiers. They were obviously sent by someone of a degree of importance and either the monks or their mission was worth protecting.

If you are talking about the mission of Columba - as far as I know, he had no military escort. But he was certainly part of a pattern of coming and going between Northern Ireland and Northern Britain. No one doubts it. The discussions referred to have been about the L21 found in Norway.   

Quote
Also some of the Celtic Knotword' designs found in The Book of Kells are of Rhineland origin.

That doesn't mean that someone went from the Rhineland to Ireland to assist in decorating the Book of Kells. It means that La Tene artistic influences, which had their origin in the La Tene centres of what is now France and Germany, fed into Britain in the Late Iron Age and from northern Britain into Northern Ireland c. 200 BC. Then the Romans came along and scooped most of what had been the La Tene Culture area into the Roman Empire. Although some flickers of La Tene influence still appear in Romano-British items for a while, Roman culture put a damper on it. Whereas in Ireland the La Tene style continued to flourish right into the early Christian period.   



Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 09, 2010, 05:23:39 PM
I'm still gathering data on this ...  the data related to England vis-à-vis Ireland and Scotland.
I have two data analysis points to present.  The first and simplest is a straight analysis of STR variance.

I've used several sets of markers (i.e. thrown out multi-copy, kept them in, etc.) and as my database of M222 haplotypes has grown, England's M222 variance remains consistently higher.

English MDKAs' M222 variance ranges from 20 to 50% higher than Ireland's. Scotland's variance ranges from -4% to +7% of Ireland's. You can add Scotland and Ireland together and still England's variance ranges 20 to 50% higher.

This is just one factor, but the implication is that M222 was in England prior to Ireland or Scotland.  If this is the case, neither Ireland nor Scotland are the source for M222, the Northwest Irish.  It doesn't matter if there was some Irish back-migration to England, how can the target geography have greater vaiance than the source?  If you disagree, please explain.

This is point #1. We'll get to point #2 later. It it is Y DNA data based but it is not as objective.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 09, 2010, 06:20:14 PM
I have no quarrel with the idea that M222 cropped up among the Celts of Northern Britain. Scotland did not exist as a country at the time, so I try to avoid anachronism. What I say is:

Quote
The La Tène Culture of the Central European Celts spread into Britain in the late Iron Age. It arrived in North-Eastern Ireland from northern Britain around 200 BC and spread across the north of the island, north of a Dublin-Galway line. Along with it came the first rotary querns in Ireland. These were a particular type of beehive quern known also in northern England and southern Scotland. Although the humble quern tends not to be found on the same sites as high-status La Tène objects, they are part of the same picture. Three have been found with ornament of La Tène type. The Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-M222 is found in Northern Ireland, Lowland Scotland and Northern England and may reflect the arrival of La Tène in Ireland.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: rms2 on October 09, 2010, 07:28:51 PM


If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

I was talking about the serial whining that there is "no Irish dna", etc. Please stop.

So L21 came from someplace outside Ireland. That doesn't make Ireland any less cool.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: eochaidh on October 10, 2010, 01:04:22 AM


If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

I was talking about the serial whining that there is "no Irish dna", etc. Please stop.

So L21 came from someplace outside Ireland. That doesn't make Ireland any less cool.

My question wasn't about L21+, it was about M222+. Again, if M222+ is Irish, then how could it be found in Bavaria.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: OConnor on October 10, 2010, 07:40:33 AM
Hasn't M222 been found in Scandinavia yet?





Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 10, 2010, 08:21:33 AM
@eochaidh

Miles - you are not the only man who would like to feel that the Y-DNA haplogroup he carries is exclusive to the ethnicity of which he is so proud. I see this over and over again from just about all nationalities. One day I think that desire will be gratified in many people.

Once upon a time all the geneticists had were huge haplogroups like R or J or C that spread over vast chunks of the globe. One Maltese man told me that he was so shocked to discover that he had a "foreign" haplogroup (J1) that it put him right off genetic genealogy. I responded that all the Y-DNA "parent" haplogroups or paragroups, signified just by a letter, originated outside Europe, with the possible exception of I. This all happened so long ago, that I doubt there was any concept of "Europe" at the time.

Geneticists have managed to gradually split these huge groups up into subclades, some of which are much more restricted geographically. Even so, if a subclade is thousands of years old, it makes no sense to project back into such a distance our concepts of political boundaries. Bell Beaker People roamed over most of Europe, but clearly retained a sense of kinship and clan, though we can't put a name to these until much later on.

Gradually geneticists are working their way towards subclades that can be linked with surnames and have origins well within the historic period. At last it will all start making sense to men who feel "I am Borogrovian, so I should have a Borogrovian haplogroup, and preferably one that shows my descent from Igrave the Merciless."

 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 10, 2010, 08:36:00 AM
@eochaidh

The reason why people have looked to a movement into Ireland as the explanation for the spread of L21 and M222 is that their date and location better fit that scenario when looking at archaeological evidence.

By contrast R1b-L144 better fits a distribution from Ireland. I have just added something about this to my page on Celtic tribes. I'm about to blog about it.

[Added] OK. Blog post up: Surnames and Y-DNA (http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/blog/2/entry-79-surnames-and-y-dna/)


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: rms2 on October 10, 2010, 12:12:04 PM


If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

I was talking about the serial whining that there is "no Irish dna", etc. Please stop.

So L21 came from someplace outside Ireland. That doesn't make Ireland any less cool.

My question wasn't about L21+, it was about M222+. Again, if M222+ is Irish, then how could it be found in Bavaria.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

And that was not the only post you have made with the same general theme. This most recent one was about M222 (downstream of L21), but it was just one more in a series of similar posts.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: GoldenHind on October 10, 2010, 02:14:38 PM
Hasn't M222 been found in Scandinavia yet?





The recent Myres study found M222, though in a small amount, in Malmö in Sweden (2 out of 139, or 1.4%), as I pointed out in the R1b in Sweden thread. I don't believe they found any in Denmark, though those were smaller samples. I offer no opinion how or when M222 got to Sweden. There are just too many possible explanations.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 10, 2010, 03:10:25 PM
The difference between L21* and M222 are that there is surely absolutely no way L21 originated in Ireland but I think an Irish origin for M222 remains a reasonable possibility although there are other options.  There is some evidence for a British origin (variance) but with small sample sizes and a number of pitfalls in the use of variance (although its the best tool we have) I think the origin of M222 remains an open question.  A lot depends on the date.  Archaeology really is heavily against M222 originating in Ireland and moving to Britain in the BC part of the Iron Age when Ireland had a low population and was a strange backwater with a of apparent Bronze Age continuity in may aspects of material culture other than a modest quantity of La Tene metalwork mainly in the northern two-thirds.  However, if its date is as some have calculated c. 400AD (plus or minus a bit) then that falls into a period where the Irish population size (as implied from pollen in bog cores etc) had exploded and classical and native (as well as inscription and placename) evidence is pretty good for Irish migration to the western seaboard of the collapsing Roman Britain.  So, for me, a lot depends on the date.  A British origin and later dispersal westwards is more likely in the 300BC-150AD bracket and an Irish origin with a dispersal eastwards is more likely from around 300AD.  However, I cannot see the M222 date ever being calculated without confidence intervals that would cover both the BC and AD periods just noted.  As for continental origin, i dont know.  Noone seems to trust Myres et al. 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: NealtheRed on October 10, 2010, 04:35:13 PM
The difference between L21* and M222 are that there is surely absolutely no way L21 originated in Ireland but I think an Irish origin for M222 remains a reasonable possibility although there are other options.  There is some evidence for a British origin (variance) but with small sample sizes and a number of pitfalls in the use of variance (although its the best tool we have) I think the origin of M222 remains an open question.  A lot depends on the date.  Archaeology really is heavily against M222 originating in Ireland and moving to Britain in the BC part of the Iron Age when Ireland had a low population and was a strange backwater with a of apparent Bronze Age continuity in may aspects of material culture other than a modest quantity of La Tene metalwork mainly in the northern two-thirds.  However, if its date is as some have calculated c. 400AD (plus or minus a bit) then that falls into a period where the Irish population size (as implied from pollen in bog cores etc) had exploded and classical and native (as well as inscription and placename) evidence is pretty good for Irish migration to the western seaboard of the collapsing Roman Britain.  So, for me, a lot depends on the date.  A British origin and later dispersal westwards is more likely in the 300BC-150AD bracket and an Irish origin with a dispersal eastwards is more likely from around 300AD.  However, I cannot see the M222 date ever being calculated without confidence intervals that would cover both the BC and AD periods just noted.  As for continental origin, i dont know.  Noone seems to trust Myres et al. 

Is it pretty well established that M222 in Northern Britain has more variance than M222 in Ireland?


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 10, 2010, 04:50:03 PM
To be honest the first I heard of this was Mike's calculations in the last month or two. However, the result is striking although perhaps the sample would be an issue in the eyes of some??? Probably best Mike comments on that.  Its stuff like Mike's calculations throwing a cat among the pigeons that keep me interested in this hobby.  Other than phylogeny, which can be pretty broad brush, variance is all we have.  Its certainly the only tool we have to infer the relative age of a clade in one area compared to another.  It may have pitfalls but without that we would have nothing at all and we may as well give up right now. 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 10, 2010, 04:52:33 PM
The difference between L21* and M222 are that there is surely absolutely no way L21 originated in Ireland but I think an Irish origin for M222 remains a reasonable possibility although there are other options.  There is some evidence for a British origin (variance) but with small sample sizes and a number of pitfalls in the use of variance (although its the best tool we have) I think the origin of M222 remains an open question.  A lot depends on the date.  Archaeology really is heavily against M222 originating in Ireland and moving to Britain in the BC part of the Iron Age when Ireland had a low population and was a strange backwater with a of apparent Bronze Age continuity in may aspects of material culture other than a modest quantity of La Tene metalwork mainly in the northern two-thirds.  However, if its date is as some have calculated c. 400AD (plus or minus a bit) then that falls into a period where the Irish population size (as implied from pollen in bog cores etc) had exploded and classical and native (as well as inscription and placename) evidence is pretty good for Irish migration to the western seaboard of the collapsing Roman Britain.  So, for me, a lot depends on the date.  A British origin and later dispersal westwards is more likely in the 300BC-150AD bracket and an Irish origin with a dispersal eastwards is more likely from around 300AD.  However, I cannot see the M222 date ever being calculated without confidence intervals that would cover both the BC and AD periods just noted.  As for continental origin, i dont know.  Noone seems to trust Myres et al. 

Is it pretty well established that M222 in Northern Britain has more variance than M222 in Ireland?

Oh and as far as I know what Mike said was English M222 was older than both Irish and Scottish. I dont think he used the term north British.  I think it was an England vs Ireland/Scotland comparison.   


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 10, 2010, 08:43:00 PM
Is it pretty well established that M222 in Northern Britain has more variance than M222 in Ireland?
Oh and as far as I know what Mike said was English M222 was older than both Irish and Scottish. I dont think he used the term north British.  I think it was an England vs Ireland/Scotland comparison.   
My use of the terms England, Scotland and Ireland are not ethnicity related, but purely related to modern political boundaries except for by Ireland I mean the whole island not just the Republic. I did not include Wales because I've only found a few M222 there.

I originally started looking at this to see if it appeared that M222 was older in Ireland or in Scotland to see how it matched up with the history and folklore of Niall, etc.

We have plenty of confirmed M222 long haplotypes from Ireland and Scotland so I say this with confidence the variance, and therefore probably the age, of Ireland and Scotland is pretty much equal. You can also look at Scotland and Ireland as one and compare them to Scotland and Ireland individually and it's still all about the same. The implication is that the M222 people in Ireland and Scotland were basically the same people at the time of their expansions there.... and it must have been a rapid and mighty expansion.  They are very hard group to "sub" cluster. Is this telling?... that M222 in Ireland and Scotland are basically one group?

As far as the veracity that I can say the variance of M222 from England is greater than Ireland or Scotland or Scotland+Ireland; it is not definitive. I think data from England is limited as I have only 18 haplotypes from England.  However, the amount of difference is significant. As I've gone from 12 to 15 haplotypes and now to 18, it's holding steady at 20 to 50% higher variance fom England.

I'm not a gambling man so I wouldn't put money on England having the higher variance at the end of the day. However, if I had to bet, I'd bet England will remain with the higher variance.

I'll look for more M222 from England. I've got a feeling they all don't join the NW Irish project.







Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: NealtheRed on October 10, 2010, 09:13:25 PM
Is it pretty well established that M222 in Northern Britain has more variance than M222 in Ireland?
Oh and as far as I know what Mike said was English M222 was older than both Irish and Scottish. I dont think he used the term north British.  I think it was an England vs Ireland/Scotland comparison.   
My use of the terms England, Scotland and Ireland are not ethnicity related, but purely related to modern political boundaries except for by Ireland I mean the whole island not just the Republic. I did not include Wales because I've only found a few M222 there.

I originally started looking at this to see if it appeared that M222 was older in Ireland or in Scotland to see how it matched up with the history and folklore of Niall, etc.

We have plenty of confirmed M222 long haplotypes from Ireland and Scotland so I say this with confidence the variance, and therefore probably the age, of Ireland and Scotland is pretty much equal. You can also look at Scotland and Ireland as one and compare them to Scotland and Ireland individually and it's still all about the same. The implication is that the M222 people in Ireland and Scotland were basically the same people at the time of their expansions there.... and it must have been a rapid and mighty expansion.  They are very hard group to "sub" cluster. Is this telling?... that M222 in Ireland and Scotland are basically one group?

As far as the veracity that I can say the variance of M222 from England is greater than Ireland or Scotland or Scotland+Ireland; it is not definitive. I think data from England is limited as I have only 18 haplotypes from England.  However, the amount of difference is significant. As I've gone from 12 to 15 haplotypes and now to 18, it's holding steady at 20 to 50% higher variance fom England.

I'm not a gambling man so I wouldn't put money on England having the higher variance at the end of the day. However, if I had to bet, I'd bet England will remain with the higher variance.

I'll look for more M222 from England. I've got a feeling they all don't join the NW Irish project.







It's seems that the Ui Neill kindred in both Ireland and Scotland really are closely related. We just need more English samples to say with certainty that M222 is older there.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 10, 2010, 10:00:59 PM
As far as the veracity that I can say the variance of M222 from England is greater than Ireland or Scotland or Scotland+Ireland; it is not definitive. I think data from England is limited as I have only 18 haplotypes from England.  However, the amount of difference is significant. As I've gone from 12 to 15 haplotypes and now to 18, it's holding steady at 20 to 50% higher variance fom England.
Here are details....

Surnames of M222 MDKA's from England with countries of highest surname frequency:
Bell - England
Brents - England
Cox - England
Cuthbert - England
Clarkson - England
Dalton - Ireland
Galyean - Germany
Horton - England
Howle - England
Kelly - Ireland
Knowles - England
McDonald - Scotland
Owsley - England
Pepper - England - England
Ryall - England/Ireland/Wales
Savage - Ireland/England/Scotland
Smith - England
Comment: I'm not a surname expert so I checked the World Surname Profiler against these surnames for highest frequencies. They seem appropriate for people who might have been in England a long time other than Kelly and McDonald.

Locations of M222 MDKA's from England where specified:
North West, Cumbria, Longtown
Yorkshire and Humber, North Lincolnshire, Grasby
Yorkshire and Humber, East Yorkshire
East Midlands, Leicester
South West, Devonshire, Cornwood
South West, Devonshire
London
East, Hertfordshire
East, Norfolk, North Norfolk, Wighton
Comment: The locations seem scattered and not necessarily pooled on the border with Scotland.

Birth dates of MDKA's from England:
1609, 1618, 1663, 1668, 1684, 1685, 1689, 1745, 1750, 1794, 1801, 1802, 1806, 1831, 1850, 1865, 1869
Comment: I know that there is a following of those who believe the Industrial Revolution brought a lot of Irish to England. This may very well be true, but keep in mind we are not tracking current M222's in England or there might be a lot more of them.  We are tracking Most Distant Known Ancestors. I think odds of the Industrial Revolution being the immigration source for these MDKA's are diminished. This is based on my understanding that the First Industrial Revolution started around 1780 and wasn't in full swing until the 1830's. We know the 1840's was a significant time for Irish out-migration due to food scarcities.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 11, 2010, 08:36:01 AM
... The implication is that the M222 people in Ireland and Scotland were basically the same people at the time of their expansions there.... and it must have been a rapid and mighty expansion.  They are very hard group to "sub" cluster. Is this telling?... that M222 in Ireland and Scotland are basically one group?
It's seems that the Ui Neill kindred in both Ireland and Scotland really are closely related. We just need more English samples to say with certainty that M222 is older there.
Is it well demonstrated that the Ui Neill's are the progenitors of M222 in Ireland Scotland? I know there have been articles on the topic and I believe a study, but what is the essential reasoning and data?


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 11, 2010, 09:25:57 AM
Is it well demonstrated that the Ui Neill's are the progenitors of M222 in Ireland Scotland?

No. According to Moore et al (2006), M222 is carried by nearly 20% of the men in Donegal today. In early historic times this was the territory of the northern Uí Néill, presumed descendants of the fabled 5th-century warlord, Niall of the Nine Hostages. They found M222 particularly common among those with some Uí Néill surnames, such as O'Doherty, though not most of the O'Neills themselves. It also appears among the Connachta, supposed descendants of the brothers of Niall. So they labelled it as the lineage of Niall.[1] But its concentration among Lowland Scots (rather than in Gaelic Argyll) [2] and northern English [3] suggests that it is centuries older than Niall.

John D. McLaughlin and  David Wilson of the M222 Project dismiss any link to Niall and feel that it should be labelled Northwest Irish/Lowland Scots.[2] In a personal communication David Ewing told me that "There is pretty much universal agreement that it did not originate in Niall, that a lot of the O'Neills are not of this type and that a number of families known not to be O'Neills are of this type, but otherwise there is no consensus."

1) L.T. Moore, B. McEvoy et al., A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland, The American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 78, no. 2 (1 February
2006), pp. 334-338

2) R-M222 Haplogroup Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/) ;  E.B. O’Neill and J.D. McLaughlin, Insights into the O’Neills of Ireland from DNA testing, Journal of Genetic Genealogy, vol. 2, no.2 (Fall, 2006), pp. 18-26;  J.D. McLaughlin, Ui Neill DNA  (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/dna.htm)

3) N.M Myres et al., A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe, European Journal of Human Genetics, (advance online publication 25 August 2010).


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 11, 2010, 12:57:33 PM
As far as the veracity that I can say the variance of M222 from England is greater than Ireland or Scotland or Scotland+Ireland; it is not definitive. I think data from England is limited as I have only 18 haplotypes from England.  However, the amount of difference is significant. As I've gone from 12 to 15 haplotypes and now to 18, it's holding steady at 20 to 50% higher variance fom England.
Here are details....

Surnames of M222 MDKA's from England with countries of highest surname frequency:
Bell - England
Brents - England
Cox - England
Cuthbert - England
Clarkson - England
Dalton - Ireland
Galyean - Germany
Horton - England
Howle - England
Kelly - Ireland
Knowles - England
McDonald - Scotland
Owsley - England
Pepper - England - England
Ryall - England/Ireland/Wales
Savage - Ireland/England/Scotland
Smith - England
Comment: I'm not a surname expert so I checked the World Surname Profiler against these surnames for highest frequencies. They seem appropriate for people who might have been in England a long time other than Kelly and McDonald.

Locations of M222 MDKA's from England where specified:
North West, Cumbria, Longtown
Yorkshire and Humber, North Lincolnshire, Grasby
Yorkshire and Humber, East Yorkshire
East Midlands, Leicester
South West, Devonshire, Cornwood
South West, Devonshire
London
East, Hertfordshire
East, Norfolk, North Norfolk, Wighton
Comment: The locations seem scattered and not necessarily pooled on the border with Scotland.

Birth dates of MDKA's from England:
1609, 1618, 1663, 1668, 1684, 1685, 1689, 1745, 1750, 1794, 1801, 1802, 1806, 1831, 1850, 1865, 1869
Comment: I know that there is a following of those who believe the Industrial Revolution brought a lot of Irish to England. This may very well be true, but keep in mind we are not tracking current M222's in England or there might be a lot more of them.  We are tracking Most Distant Known Ancestors. I think odds of the Industrial Revolution being the immigration source for these MDKA's are diminished. This is based on my understanding that the First Industrial Revolution started around 1780 and wasn't in full swing until the 1830's. We know the 1840's was a significant time for Irish out-migration due to food scarcities.

I've got another M222 MDKA from England - Minzie. The name is most common in:
MANCHESTER , NORTH WEST , UNITED KINGDOM
NOTTINGHAM , EAST MIDLANDS , UNITED KINGDOM

The actual MDKA is from Middlesex and was born in 1726, another pre-Industrial era guy.  The variance difference of England over Ireland didn't change.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 11, 2010, 02:13:07 PM
Is it well demonstrated that the Ui Neill's are the progenitors of M222 in Ireland Scotland?

No. According to Moore et al (2006), M222 is carried by nearly 20% of the men in Donegal today. In early historic times this was the territory of the northern Uí Néill, presumed descendants of the fabled 5th-century warlord, Niall of the Nine Hostages. They found M222 particularly common among those with some Uí Néill surnames, such as O'Doherty, though not most of the O'Neills themselves. It also appears among the Connachta, supposed descendants of the brothers of Niall. So they labelled it as the lineage of Niall.[1] But its concentration among Lowland Scots (rather than in Gaelic Argyll) [2] and northern English [3] suggests that it is centuries older than Niall.

John D. McLaughlin and  David Wilson of the M222 Project dismiss any link to Niall and feel that it should be labelled Northwest Irish/Lowland Scots.[2] In a personal communication David Ewing told me that "There is pretty much universal agreement that it did not originate in Niall, that a lot of the O'Neills are not of this type and that a number of families known not to be O'Neills are of this type, but otherwise there is no consensus."

1) L.T. Moore, B. McEvoy et al., A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland, The American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 78, no. 2 (1 February
2006), pp. 334-338

2) R-M222 Haplogroup Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/) ;  E.B. O’Neill and J.D. McLaughlin, Insights into the O’Neills of Ireland from DNA testing, Journal of Genetic Genealogy, vol. 2, no.2 (Fall, 2006), pp. 18-26;  J.D. McLaughlin, Ui Neill DNA  (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/dna.htm)

3) N.M Myres et al., A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe, European Journal of Human Genetics, (advance online publication 25 August 2010).


Got to say I agree with a lot of that.  M222 seems to link NW Ireland with the Scottish border area, a link not known in history and quite quite distinct from the Dalriada link between NE Ireland and west Highland/Inner Hebridean Scotland.  I think a link that is not recorded in history or mythology is likely. Digging into my memory banks I recall an article by Richard Warner that dealt with links between Ireland and Scotland and, if I remember it correctly it included what seemed to be a link between the north of Ireland and the Scottish-English border area. The chapter was

Warner, R.B. "Ireland, Ulster and Scotland in the Earlier Iron Age", in Clarke D.V. & O'Connor (eds) 'From the Stone Age to the Forty Five'.
.  


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 11, 2010, 04:39:21 PM
I don't think we need to drag Richard Warner out of retirement. The beehive quern is found all over northern Ireland. Its origin lies in Britain. There seems a certain amount of disagreement over dating and precise point (in Britain) from which it crossed to Ireland. Not to mention the inevitable controversy over whether this represents an incoming people.  But this is what I say:

Quote
The La Tène Culture of the Central European Celts spread into Britain in the late Iron Age. It arrived in North-Eastern Ireland from northern Britain around 200 BC and spread across the north of the island, north of a Dublin-Galway line. Along with it came the first rotary querns in Ireland. These were a particular type of beehive quern known also in northern England and southern Scotland. Although the humble quern tends not to be found on the same sites as high-status La Tène objects, they are part of the same picture. Three have been found with ornament of La Tène type.

This follows the ideas of Seamus Caulfield, The beehive quern in Ireland, R.S.A.I. Journal, vol. 107 (1977), pp. 107-39, summed up online in Dennis William Harding, The Archaeology of Celtic Art (2007), p. 177. (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8TV7ZFVzy9sC&pg=PA177)
 
See A New History of Ireland: Prehistoric and early Ireland, pp. 151-2 (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SJSDj1dDvNUC&pg=PA152#v=onepage&q&f=false) for a different take.
 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 11, 2010, 06:59:50 PM
I don't think we need to drag Richard Warner out of retirement. The beehive quern is found all over northern Ireland. Its origin lies in Britain. There seems a certain amount of disagreement over dating and precise point (in Britain) from which it crossed to Ireland. Not to mention the inevitable controversy over whether this represents an incoming people.  But this is what I say:

Quote
The La Tène Culture of the Central European Celts spread into Britain in the late Iron Age. It arrived in North-Eastern Ireland from northern Britain around 200 BC and spread across the north of the island, north of a Dublin-Galway line. Along with it came the first rotary querns in Ireland. These were a particular type of beehive quern known also in northern England and southern Scotland. Although the humble quern tends not to be found on the same sites as high-status La Tène objects, they are part of the same picture. Three have been found with ornament of La Tène type.

This follows the ideas of Seamus Caulfield, The beehive quern in Ireland, R.S.A.I. Journal, vol. 107 (1977), pp. 107-39, summed up online in Dennis William Harding, The Archaeology of Celtic Art (2007), p. 177. (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8TV7ZFVzy9sC&pg=PA177)
 
See A New History of Ireland: Prehistoric and early Ireland, pp. 151-2 (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SJSDj1dDvNUC&pg=PA152#v=onepage&q&f=false) for a different take.
 

I think Richard's chapter was based mainly on metalwork of the very early centuries AD.  He got his specialist knowledge from being a museum curator.  He also was one of the few people brave enough to dabble in Irish literature/mythology and archaeology.  He made me aware of O'Rahilly's famous work and Reeve's crucial book relating to Early Christian tribes in NE Ireland I mentioned recently, crucial starting points to interests in those areas.  I think you would be interested in his various papers as he is big into the idea of Irish-Scottish links in both directions in the Roman period.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 12, 2010, 12:21:21 PM
....  A lot depends on the date.  Archaeology really is heavily against M222 originating in Ireland and moving to Britain in the BC part of the Iron Age when Ireland had a low population and was a strange backwater with a of apparent Bronze Age continuity in may aspects of material culture other than a modest quantity of La Tene metalwork mainly in the northern two-thirds.  However, if its date is as some have calculated c. 400AD (plus or minus a bit) then that falls into a period where the Irish population size (as implied from pollen in bog cores etc) had exploded and classical and native (as well as inscription and placename) evidence is pretty good for Irish migration to the western seaboard of the collapsing Roman Britain.  So, for me, a lot depends on the date. A British origin and later dispersal westwards is more likely in the 300BC-150AD bracket and an Irish origin with a dispersal eastwards is more likely from around 300AD.  ....
I agree that subclade age estimates are subject to question.

The best I can come up with is to use the best scientific thought available as the scale, then, since Ken N says variance is linear, work with it to place M222 on the scale.

My opinion is that the Karafet et al 2008 "New binary polymorphisms reshape and increase resolution of the human Y chromosomal haplogroup tree" study is a good approach as they looked beyond STR variance into counting SNP-based branch lengths.  The deepest clade for us that the study dealt with was there 18.5K ybp for R1.
www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Karafet-et-all-GR508.pdf

Hammer of FTDNA/U of Ariz was on the Karafet team and in 2009 he presented that R-M269 was 4-8K ybp.

Vince V has estimated in ht35 topic related discussions that P312 might be around 1000 years younger than R-M269.   Vince, or anyone, is that fair?  If so R-P312 would be 3.5-7K ybp.

Comparing 296 R-M222 67 length ht's with 2100 R-P312 67 length ht's, using the 50 non multi-copy markers, I get M222's variance as 46% of P312's (all subclades).  That comes out to a range of 1.6-3.2K ybp.

The net is a probable range for M222 of 1200 BC to 400 AD so we can't rule out a 300 AD plus Irish population boom although it seems a bit less likely to account for M222's expansion.

...

Keep in mind that many studies think R-M269 is much older than 4-8K ybp.  I don't know of any that say less.  Are there?

If you believe the Hammer 4-8K number, you are barely catching the early Neolithic advances that reach all the way back to SW Asia (where ht35 does exist)  so you might be inclined to add a little age. The LBK started about 7.6K ybp. but that's from Hungary/Serbia.  To go with the Neolithic, R-M269* must have been around earlier than that since it is found in SW Asia. The Neolithic didn't reach SE Europe before 8.5K ybp.  If the Neolithic was the first real carrier of R-M269 in to Europe and since R-M269* apparently is from SW Asia and the Neolithic didn't reach Europe before 8.5K ybp, Hammer's ages must be a little young.

To have consistent logic, if one thinks R-M269 was carried with the Neolithic advance then
1) Hammer's dates are a little young and
2) My projection of R-M222 are a little young therefore
2) M222 must have gone from Britain to Ireland (probably BC) rather than from Ireland to Northern Britain - given Alan's view of the archeology.

Agree or disagree?

BTW, I'm not at all committed to the idea that R-M269 was being carried with the Neolithic but I think it is a very reasonable possibility.  The way I look at this is we have a couple of different scenarios that are each individual puzzles with only some of the pieces available. The good news we can tell some puzzle pieces fit only fit on certain puzzles so we can keep our puzzle pieces in the right piles for the right puzzles. That's progress.



Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 12, 2010, 01:13:38 PM
Mike-one thing to note when you push back well into the BC era is that, unlike the Iron Age, Late Bronze Age Ireland was sensationally rich, advanced and with a large population.  Roughly that period is c. 1200BC-700BC (plus or minus a century).  If you cross into that period then you are into a completely different ball game.  
Ireland had a lofty position thorough a major role in the western European Bronze Age metal trade in several phases from 2400-700BC or so.  Although the actual ore was only Irish in some phases, Ireland seems to have despite this remained a very important player.  There is a long history of Irish metalwork in Britain NW France for instance. In that period it would not be surprising for Ireland to be donating a scattering of genes.  

However, there was a real low about 700BC-300BC.  This has been shown by analysis of the dates of sites found during rescue archaeology over the last 10 years or so.  This seems to have genuinely been a really bad trough.  Some think Ireland had an elite systems collapse due to the coming of Iron.  I find it hard to see evidence for either intrusion towards or migration from Ireland in that period. 

There then seems to have been (modest) recovery c. 300BC-0 throughout Ireland. Again stats relating to rescue excavations imply this.  There is also evidence of La Tene input although only in a superficial way - just a modest restricted range of almost entirely stray La Tene metalwork (often peculiarly Irish in form) plus querns but no intrusive burial types,, mainly in the northern two-thirds but also beyond i.e the famous Cork horns.  This could perhaps be a horizon for expansion but not a spectacular one.

Then early centuries AD is a strange period.  It is also like some sort of dark age but then turns into a unique population explosion to levels never previously known according to pollen diagrams.

I have no idea where M222 fits best but some phases are better than others.  The pre-700BC period, perhaps the 300BC-0 period and finally the traditional late Roman dating all at least have some possibility of an expansion reflected by other indicators.  I still have no idea why the NW corner of Ireland was the site of an expansion of M222.  That probably that still best fits the traditional version.  The question for me is that was an expansion but is it the origin?


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 12, 2010, 01:52:05 PM
...
[1] Ireland was sensationally rich, advanced and with a large population.  Roughly that period is c. 1200BC-700BC ....
[2] Ireland had ..... major role in the western European Bronze Age metal trade in several phases from 2400-700BC or so.  ...
[3] there was a real low about 700BC-300BC.....
[4] (modest) recovery c. 300BC-0 throughout Ireland...
[5] There is also evidence of La Tene input although only in a superficial way .... could perhaps be a horizon for expansion but not a spectacular one.
[6] Then early centuries AD is a strange period.  It is also like some sort of dark age but then turns into a unique population explosion to levels never previously known according to pollen diagrams.
Yikes!!!  There are lot of phases (puzzle pieces) that cross our very broad TMRCA date ranges.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 12, 2010, 06:38:54 PM
...
[1] Ireland was sensationally rich, advanced and with a large population.  Roughly that period is c. 1200BC-700BC ....
[2] Ireland had ..... major role in the western European Bronze Age metal trade in several phases from 2400-700BC or so.  ...
[3] there was a real low about 700BC-300BC.....
[4] (modest) recovery c. 300BC-0 throughout Ireland...
[5] There is also evidence of La Tene input although only in a superficial way .... could perhaps be a horizon for expansion but not a spectacular one.
[6] Then early centuries AD is a strange period.  It is also like some sort of dark age but then turns into a unique population explosion to levels never previously known according to pollen diagrams.
Yikes!!!  There are lot of phases (puzzle pieces) that cross our very broad TMRCA date ranges.

yep a lot happened in that period.  It is interesting that stray artifact and pollen diagram evidence for these ups and down has been confirmed by the radiocarbon dating of sites found through large scale monitoring of the like of roads etc.  That provides a sort of random sampling and dating of sites regardless of lack of surface visibility or artifact poverty.  These have confirmed and to an extent refined the inferences made from pollen samples in bog cores and other palaeoecological techniques.  As you say, the wide date band covers a lot of ups and downs.  Having said that, the ups and downs of Ireland may not be so relevant if it turns out that it didnt originate there.  Maybe it had a couple of expansions, a smaller one somewhere else followed by a large one in Ireland among the Connachta.  

While a number of origins have been suggested for groups like the Laigin, Cruithin etc, there seems to be very little solid for the Connachta.  I almost have the impression that the Ui Neill may have been a military grouping in origin rather than a tribe as such.  This is only a total stab in the dark but there is a tradition in the Ulster cycle that among the Connachta's most feared warriors were the Fir Domnain and they were later associated with the north-west of Connaught in what I suspect is a retreat position.  Is it possible that the Connachta and Ui Neill are really from the Fir Domnain?  Is it possible that they were Damnoni from SW Scotland rather than Dumnoni or Leinster Fir Domnain? SW Scotland is the other stronghold of both M222 and it has been said that the pre-M222 group (if such is a valid concept) are concentrated there.  Interestingly the only placename in Ireland mentioned n the actual 5th century texts of St. Patrick (his 'Confession' and his 'Letter to Coroticus') is in north Connaught in Tirawley, possibly the place he was held captive (the traditions linking him to Antrim and Down are only known from writings about 200 years later).  Add to that that his letterto Coroticus is thought to be to the king of the Scottish Damnoni based in SW Scotland and the main subject of the letter was the raiding of the Irish.  This makes up a strange group of links between NW Connaught and SW Scotland, two M222 hotspots.  

Of course neither the Damnoni or Dumnoni are on Ptolemy's map of Ireland of the 2nd century AD and the Fir Domnain are also portrayed as a something in the pre-Christian past in Irish sources.  That would place any link (and admittedly any such link its totally speculative) in the 3rd or 4th century AD (give or take half a century).  Could an offshoot of the Scottish Damnoni perhaps the be the real origin of the Ui Neill and Connachta?

Admittedly, Irish records do not seem to ever make this link in terms of Ui Neill origins.  Another flaw in the theory is that it places a settlement of Britons in Ireland at the sort of time when the Roman's are reporting the traffic was very much flowing the other way.          


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Jean M on October 12, 2010, 07:52:55 PM
Another flaw in the theory is that it places a settlement of Britons in Ireland at the sort of time when the Romans are reporting the traffic was very much flowing the other way.          

The Romans reported Irish raids, not settlement.* St Patrick's life is proof that Britons were snatched and taken as slaves to Ireland. St Patrick's letter to Coroticus proves raiding and slave-taking in the other direction as well. Irish settlement in Dyfed seems to have begun as Roman deisi taken on by the Romans as federates to protect the area from raiding by other Irish. It does not appear to have been large-scale.    

[added] * Of course raids could lead to settlement, once the Romans removed their protection, as with the Angles and Saxons.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: OConnor on October 19, 2010, 10:22:22 AM
Hasn't M222 been found in Scandinavia yet?
The recent Myres study found M222, though in a small amount, in Malmö in Sweden (2 out of 139, or 1.4%), as I pointed out in the R1b in Sweden thread. I don't believe they found any in Denmark, though those were smaller samples. I offer no opinion how or when M222 got to Sweden. There are just too many possible explanations.

Fitzhenry (an Irish Hiberno-Norman surname)
R1b1b2
13 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 16 17

R1b1b2
13 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 17 17

Fitzgerald
13 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 16 17

13 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 16 17

R1b1b2a1b5b
13 24 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 16 17

Butler
R1b1b2
13 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 16 17

R1b1b2
13 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 16 9 11 11 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 16 17 

Some M222 sequences and other possible M222+ sequences can be found under many surname projects with Norman-type Surnames 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 19, 2010, 11:25:51 AM
Fitzhenry (an Irish Hiberno-Norman surname) ...
Fitzgerald
Butler
...
Some M222 sequences and other possible M222+ sequences can be found under many surname projects with Norman-type Surnames 
Can you get these guys to deep clade test and extend out to 67 markers?

Those are clearly Anglo-Norman surnames but surnames aren't necessarily a good indicator of an ancient origin.  What is your supposition?


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: OConnor on October 19, 2010, 06:42:59 PM
If M222 is found in Scandinavia, and with Norman surnames, then maybe there is a chance it could have originally come from Scandinavia, and then to England Scotland and Ireland and  Mainland Europe?


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 19, 2010, 10:52:57 PM
Fitzhenry (an Irish Hiberno-Norman surname) ...
Fitzgerald
Butler
... Some M222 sequences and other possible M222+ sequences can be found under many surname projects with Norman-type Surnames  
Those are clearly Anglo-Norman surnames but surnames aren't necessarily a good indicator of an ancient origin.  What is your supposition?
If M222 is found in Scandinavia, and with Norman surnames, then maybe there is a chance it could have originally come from Scandinavia, and then to England Scotland and Ireland and  Mainland Europe?
It is possible but appears pretty unlikely.  The Myres study Table S4 shows a frequency of 1.4% for Sweden South (Malmö) which looks like that means two out of 139.

Out of our (public DNA project) 453 confirmed R-M222, only one - fN55657   Skaar(Utsira)   R-L21/M222 Norway, Vestlandet, Co. Rogaland, Utsira - has an MDKA from Scandinavia.

I can only find one M222 from anywhere near Normandy - a man from France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Marans.

I will have to say it seems strange that there are handful of M222 from Germany but just the one I can find from France. Does that mean anything?


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: OConnor on October 20, 2010, 08:16:57 AM
I found a couple in the France Project..and a few that were not snp tested.

57411 Fournier  R1b1b2a1b5b
13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 17 17       12 11 19 23 17 16 18 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21 23 16 10 12 12 17 8 12 25 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Galyean  R1b1b2a1b5b
13 24 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 16 9 10 10 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 16 16

153350 Vigneau  R1b1b2 13 25 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 (Maybe?)


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 20, 2010, 09:27:03 AM
I found a couple in the France Project..and a few that were not snp tested.

57411 Fournier  R1b1b2a1b5b ...
Galyean  R1b1b2a1b5b ...
153350 Vigneau  R1b1b2 13 25 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29 (Maybe?)
I've got both of the first two above.  Fournier is the one guy from France I was citing below (from Marans.)  Marans isn't in Normandy but it is at least in the right half of France.

Don't trust the geographic origin just because someone has joined a geographic project. Galyean N5613 / PZBYY is not necessarily French. His Ysearch record says he thinks his MDKA is from England but he has no proof.

Vigneau is not deep clade tested and 12 markers is hardly worth evaluating.

I don't see any strong links of M222 to Normandy or Scandinavia.  I actually don't see any strong links to Germany either, but at least there are the four guys from our DNA projects from Germany and the Myres study also found one.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 20, 2010, 06:13:51 PM
Mike-We know M222 has a distribution focussed on NW Ireland and SW Scotland.  However, you have mentioned that the English M222 has a much higher variance.  Do we know anything about the distribution of M222 in England? Obviously a direct link between Germany and NW Ireland/SW Scotland is pretty geographically improbable but southern or eastern England would provide an intermediate point.   


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: OConnor on October 20, 2010, 07:20:50 PM
I thought maybe the mainland European m222 could have arrived from Scandinavia when the Vikings sailed the rivers of mainland Europe.

I thought of m222 having an earlier spread from Scandinavia to England/Scotland and on to Ireland.

I don't have enough to do so I have to dream things like this up.
I do appreciate you all discussing my hunches.

 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 20, 2010, 10:25:50 PM
Mike-We know M222 has a distribution focussed on NW Ireland and SW Scotland.  However, you have mentioned that the English M222 has a much higher variance.  Do we know anything about the distribution of M222 in England? Obviously a direct link between Germany and NW Ireland/SW Scotland is pretty geographically improbable but southern or eastern England would provide an intermediate point.  
Alan, this is from reply #42 below.  Here are the surnames and the actual MKDA locations for the English M222 MDKA's. They look scattered across England. They don't appear "pooled" on the border with Scotland. In total, there are 18 haplotypes and their variance is significantly higher in England.

Going back to Jean M's suppositions on the La Tene, did the La Tene hit one part of England harder than another? or did Hallstatt?

Locations of M222 MDKA's from England where specified:
North West, Cumbria, Longtown
Yorkshire and Humber, North Lincolnshire, Grasby
Yorkshire and Humber, East Yorkshire
East Midlands, Leicester
South West, Devonshire, Cornwood
South West, Devonshire
London
London, Middlesex
East, Hertfordshire
East, Norfolk, North Norfolk, Wighton

Surnames of M222 MDKA's from England with countries of highest surname frequency:
Bell - England
Brents - England
Cox - England
Cuthbert - England
Clarkson - England
Dalton - Ireland
Galyean - Germany
Horton - England
Howle - England
Kelly - Ireland
Knowles - England
Minzies - England
McDonald - Scotland
Owsley - England
Pepper - England - England
Ryall - England/Ireland/Wales
Savage - Ireland/England/Scotland
Smith - England

Birth dates of MDKA's from England:
1609, 1618, 1663, 1668, 1684, 1685, 1689, 1726, 1745, 1750, 1794, 1801, 1802, 1806, 1831, 1850, 1865, 1869


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 20, 2010, 10:33:36 PM
I thought maybe the mainland European m222 could have arrived from Scandinavia when the Vikings sailed the rivers of mainland Europe.

I thought of m222 having an earlier spread from Scandinavia to England/Scotland and on to Ireland. ....
O'Connor,
Anything is possible but with only the one confirmed M222 from Scandinavia (Norway) from our projects only two from Southern Sweden from the Myres study there just isn't much there.

I see no reason at all to think that M222 came to British Isles from Scandinavia.  There is just no data to discuss on it.

As far as sailing with the Vikings into Europe, if you can't establish much of a presence in Scandinavia, it's hard to conclude it went with the Vikings anywhere into Europe.

Again, not saying it is all impossible, but there is no genetic data that I see to have a reason to even talk about it.




Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 21, 2010, 09:29:17 AM
Mike-We know M222 has a distribution focussed on NW Ireland and SW Scotland.  However, you have mentioned that the English M222 has a much higher variance.  Do we know anything about the distribution of M222 in England? Obviously a direct link between Germany and NW Ireland/SW Scotland is pretty geographically improbable but southern or eastern England would provide an intermediate point.  
Alan, this is from reply #42 below.  Here are the surnames and the actual MKDA locations for the English M222 MDKA's. They look scattered across England. They don't appear "pooled" on the border with Scotland. In total, there are 18 haplotypes and their variance is significantly higher in England.

Going back to Jean M's suppositions on the La Tene, did the La Tene hit one part of England harder than another? or did Hallstatt?

Locations of M222 MDKA's from England where specified:
North West, Cumbria, Longtown
Yorkshire and Humber, North Lincolnshire, Grasby
Yorkshire and Humber, East Yorkshire
East Midlands, Leicester
South West, Devonshire, Cornwood
South West, Devonshire
London
London, Middlesex
East, Hertfordshire
East, Norfolk, North Norfolk, Wighton

Surnames of M222 MDKA's from England with countries of highest surname frequency:
Bell - England
Brents - England
Cox - England
Cuthbert - England
Clarkson - England
Dalton - Ireland
Galyean - Germany
Horton - England
Howle - England
Kelly - Ireland
Knowles - England
Minzies - England
McDonald - Scotland
Owsley - England
Pepper - England - England
Ryall - England/Ireland/Wales
Savage - Ireland/England/Scotland
Smith - England

Birth dates of MDKA's from England:
1609, 1618, 1663, 1668, 1684, 1685, 1689, 1726, 1745, 1750, 1794, 1801, 1802, 1806, 1831, 1850, 1865, 1869

It is hard to see a pattern in the English ones.  Perhaps the south-east seems underrepresented given considerations of populations size although migration patters to the Americas may need to be borne in mind.

As for La Tene and its impact in England, that is a very tricky thing to define.  Probably people would traditionally think the south and also the area where the Parisi were based on the east coast in the north are the areas of deepest influence.  However, ideas about La Tene influence are pretty vague and subject to almost cyclical change.  The influence was spread everywhere to some degree but often seems a shallow influence.  In the east of Scotland La Tene seems very scarce in the north (other than a very late flourish) and strongest in the south (south of Stirling).  There are scattered trinkets up the west found in excavations at Broch's etc but the incredible intensity of modern research excavation of the impressive stone-built structures in the Orkneys and Hebrides compared to other areas has probably completely distorted the picture.  A few decades back it was normal to link Irish La Tene material with Northern England but in later times this was to a large degree questioned.  


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 21, 2010, 02:45:36 PM
Mike-We know M222 has a distribution focussed on NW Ireland and SW Scotland.  However, you have mentioned that the English M222 has a much higher variance.  Do we know anything about the distribution of M222 in England? Obviously a direct link between Germany and NW Ireland/SW Scotland is pretty geographically improbable but southern or eastern England would provide an intermediate point.  
Locations of M222 MDKA's from England where specified:
North West, Cumbria, Longtown
Yorkshire and Humber, North Lincolnshire, Grasby
Yorkshire and Humber, East Yorkshire
East Midlands, Leicester
South West, Devonshire, Cornwood
South West, Devonshire
London
London, Middlesex
East, Hertfordshire
East, Norfolk, North Norfolk, Wighton
It is hard to see a pattern in the English ones. ..... I think the pattern of M222 is Ireland is not a very good match for La Tene.  There is an overlap but they are pretty different and its a poor correlation over all.
Thanks.
How about Hallstatt? Did have a significant influence across England or was it restricted to one area?    Same questions for Ireland and Scotland.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 21, 2010, 03:27:19 PM
Mike-We know M222 has a distribution focussed on NW Ireland and SW Scotland.  However, you have mentioned that the English M222 has a much higher variance.  Do we know anything about the distribution of M222 in England? Obviously a direct link between Germany and NW Ireland/SW Scotland is pretty geographically improbable but southern or eastern England would provide an intermediate point.  
Locations of M222 MDKA's from England where specified:
North West, Cumbria, Longtown
Yorkshire and Humber, North Lincolnshire, Grasby
Yorkshire and Humber, East Yorkshire
East Midlands, Leicester
South West, Devonshire, Cornwood
South West, Devonshire
London
London, Middlesex
East, Hertfordshire
East, Norfolk, North Norfolk, Wighton
It is hard to see a pattern in the English ones. ..... I think the pattern of M222 is Ireland is not a very good match for La Tene.  There is an overlap but they are pretty different and its a poor correlation over all.
Thanks.
How about Hallstatt? Did have a significant influence across England or was it restricted to one area?    Same questions for Ireland and Scotland.

In Britain and Ireland Hallstatt would not be seen as much more than contact and influence on metalwork.  Generally when influence does not extend beyond metalwork into settlement types, mundane domestic artefiacts, burial traditions etc it is easier to interpret as contact and influence than migration.  If the bar of evidence for migration was lowered to the level that influences on metalwork is all that is required to infer migration then you could pretty well argue anything you want.  In general, most people feel that more than metalwork influence is needed to infer significant migration. Hallstatt C metalwork objects are known to be found in association with native metalwork in a way that suggests it is simply the latest trinket that the local bronze workers were copying and adding to their repetoire.  Certainly the idea of waves of Celts in the Hallstatt and then La Tene period is a very out of date idea.  

Hallstatt is actually even weaker than La Tene as a hypothetical migration phase because at least La Tene seems to see a rather sharp change in metalworking tradition with little evidence of older technological traditions.  Well that is certainly true in Ireland.  However also in Ireland almost everything other than the metalwork has a strong feel of Bronze Age continuity or peculiarly Irish traditions with no parallels anywhere else..  Even the monuments that the La Tene metalwork is found in like the 'royal sites' and the cremation barrows are peculiarly Irish in the case of the former and very suggestive of Bronze Age continuity in the case of the latter.  If the La Tene metalwork in Ireland represents intrusion then it was on a small scale and they went native very quickly in many ways. 

Certainly I think the idea that Hallstatt and La Tene are the major cause of the spread of the Celtic languages into the British Isles is supported by very few people these days and that is because in so much of the British Isles the influences of the continental Hallstatt and La Tene cultures did appear to go beyond metalwork.  Indeed the whole popularity of the Atlantic Celts idea is based on this.  However, I think it is an irrational bit of revisionism because the Atlantic Bronze Age is even more wooly a concept and it suffers every bit as much as the old La Tene and Hallstatt ideas from being almost totally based on metalwork and military artefacts with no evidence of deeper degrees of influence on settlement, burial etc.     


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 17, 2010, 04:42:11 PM
.... We have plenty of confirmed M222 long haplotypes from Ireland and Scotland so I say this with confidence the variance, and therefore probably the age, of Ireland and Scotland is pretty much equal. You can also look at Scotland and Ireland as one and compare them to Scotland and Ireland individually and it's still all about the same. The implication is that the M222 people in Ireland and Scotland were basically the same people at the time of their expansions there.....  I think data from England is limited as I have only 18 haplotypes from England.  However, the amount of difference is significant. As I've gone from 12 to 15 haplotypes and now to 18, it's holding steady at 20 to 50% higher variance fom England. ....

Here is an update. I've now got 23 M222 people with MDKA's in England, up from 18. There is still only one from France but a couple more from Germany have appeared.  Here are the counts of people that I have from the DNA projects.

England ___ 23
Ireland ___ 286
Scotland __ 66
Germany ___ 6


Variance summary:

1. Ireland, Scotland and Ireland+Scotland are still all pretty much the same variance.

2. Curiously, Germany also has almost exactly the same variance as Ireland. Keep in mind this is a very limited sample.

3. England still has the highest variance, running from 17% to 45% greater than Ireland, et al.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Heber on April 01, 2012, 04:06:30 PM
I traveled from Dusseldorf to Munich over the weekend and stopped over in Wurzburg, capital of Franconia and visited the old city. The old bridge has a wonderful set of statues of founding fathers and notables. Of the 12 statues three (25%) were of Irish missionaries, Killian, Kolonat and Totnat, who converted the Franks to Christianity in 686.
I have posted pictures of all three against the backdrop of fortress Marianberg the site of a Celtic settlement from 3,000 Years ago.

http://m.box.com/view_shared/d0e31e15286998797f5c

Killian and his companions were probably M222 as they were kin of Columbanus and by association Niall and came from a hotspot of M222, Cloghar. They were followed by many students and monks in the following centuries including one of my ancestors kin who studied for a doctorate at the Hiberno Scots school of St Jacob (and later at the University of Prague) in the 13thC. There are many other Hiberno Scots abbeys, monasteries and schools (Schottenklöster) such as this in Bavaria. It proves that there was an established infrastructure of exchange between the Isles and continental Europe) during the 1,000 year Holy roman Empire and possible before. I often wondered if there were exchange networks between the earlier Celtic settlements and their far dispersed settlements on the periphery of Europe.
 It could go some way to explain the small amount of M222 in Bavaria.
It is also interesting that many of these Celtic missions were situated on the sites of ancient Celtic settlements.

http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Würzburg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-Scottish_mission

(Scotch Monasteries).
A name applied to the monastic foundations of Irish and Scotch missionaries on the European continent, particularly to the Scotch Benedictine monasteries in Germany, which in the beginning of the thirteenth century were combined into one congregation whose abbot-general was the Abbot of the monastery of St. James at Ratisbon. The first Schottenklöster of which we have any knowledge was Säckingen in Baden, founded by the Irish missionary, St. Fridolin, towards the end of the fifth century. The same missionary is said to have founded a Schottenklöster at Constance. A century later St. Columbanus arrived on the continent with twelve companions and founded Annegray, Luxeuil, and Fontaines in France, Bobbio in Italy. During the seventh century the disciples of Columbanus and other Irish and Scotch missionaries founded a long list of monasteries in what is now France, Germany, Belgium, and Switzerland. The best known are: St. Gall in Switzerland, Disibodenberg in the Rhine Palatinate, St. Paul's at Besançon, Lure and Cusance in the Diocese of Besançon, Beze in the Diocese of Langres, Remiremont and Moyenmoutier in the Diocese of Toul, Fosses in the Diocese of Liège, Mont-St-Michel at Peronne, Ebersmunster in Lower Alsace, St. Martin at Cologne. The rule of St. Columbanus, which was originally followed in most of these monasteries, was soon superseded by that of St. Benedict. Later Irish missionaries founded Honau in Baden (about 721), Murbach in Upper Alsace (about 727), Altomunster in Upper Bavaria (about 749), while other Irish and Scotch monks restored St-Michel in Thiérache (940), Walsort near Namur (945), and, at Cologne, the Monasteries of St. Clement (about 953), St. Martin (about 980), St. Symphorian (about 990), and St. Pantaléon (1042). Towards the end of the eleventh and in the twelfth century, a number of Schottenklöster, intended for Scotch and Irish monks exclusively, sprang up in Germany. About 1072, three Scotch monks, Marian, John, and Candidus, took up their abode at the little Church of Weih-St-Peter at Ratisbon. Their number soon increased and a larger monastery was built for them (about 1090) by Burgrave Otto of Ratisbon and his brother Henry. This became the famous Scotch Monastery of St. Jacob at Ratisbon, the mother-house of a series of other Schottenklöster. It founded the Abbeys of St. Jacob at Würzburg (about 1134), St. Aegidius at Nuremberg (1140), St. Jacob at Constance (1142), Our Blessed Lady at Vienna (1158), St. Nicolas at Memmingen (1168), Holy Cross at Eichstätt (1194), and the Priory of Kelheim (1231). These, together with the Abbey of St. Jacob at Erfurt (1036), and the Priory of Weih-St-Peter at Ratisbon formed the famous congregation of the German Schottenklöster which was erected by Innocent III in 1215, with the Abbot of St. Jacob at Ratisbon as abbot-general. In the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries most of these monasteries were on the decline, partly for want of Scotch or Irish monks, partly on account of great laxity of discipline and financial difficulties. In consequence, the abbeys of Nuremberg and Vienna were withdrawn from the Scotch congregation and repeopled by German monks in 1418. The Abbey of St. Jacob Würzburg was left without any monks after the death of Abbot Philip in 1497. It was then repeopled by German monks and in 1506 joined the congregation of Bursfeld. In 1595, however, it was restored to the Scotch congregation and continued to be occupied by Scotch monks until its suppression in 1803. The abbey of Constance began to decline in the first half of the fifteenth century and was suppressed in 1530. That of Memmingen also disappeared during the early period of the Protestant Reformation. The Abbey of Holy Cross at Eichstätt seems to have ceased early in the fourteenth century. In consequence of the Protestant Reformation in Scotland many Scotch Benedictines left their country and took refuge in the Schottenklöster of Germany during the sixteenth century. The Scotch monasteries in Ratisbon, Erfurt, and Würzburg again began to flourish temporarily, but all endeavors to regain the monasteries of Nuremberg, Vienna, and Constance for monks of Scotch nationality were useless. In 1692 Abbot Placidus Flemming of Ratisbon reorganized the Scotch congregation which now comprised the monasteries of Ratisbon, Erfurt, and Würzburg, the only remaining Schottenklöster in Germany. He also erected a seminary in connection with the monastery at Ratisbon. But the forced secularization of monasteries in 1803 put an end to the Scotch abbeys of Erfurt and Würzburg, leaving St. Jacob's at Ratisbon as the only surviving Schottenklöster in Germany. Though since 1827 this monastery was again permitted to accept novices, the number of its monks dwindled down to two capitulars in 1862. There being no hope of any increase, Pius IX suppressed this last Schottenklöster in his brief of 2 September, 1862. Its revenues were distributed between the diocesan seminary of Ratisbon and the Scotch College at Rome.


 


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: eochaidh on August 29, 2012, 01:57:23 PM
Here it is, Mike!!

No, I don't wish to discuss the possibility of a Bavarian origin for M222, but if M222 could be Bavarian, then it's gong to be hard to put the origin of DF23 in the Isles. It will then be especially hard to put DF49's origin in the Isles.

Remember, a German result represents a higher number than an Isles result. Alan can tell us how much a German result is worth as compared to a French result, but it will difintely be worth much more than an Isles result.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Heber on August 29, 2012, 02:54:18 PM
In the last few weekends I visited Salzburg, St Gallen, Lake Constance, Reiceneau as well as Hallstatt. What impressed me the most was the sheer importance of these places and others in the reconstruction of civilisation in Europe.
All of them had strong connections with the Celts and Ireland and had constant bi directional traffic over a period of 1,000 years.

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-monastic-movement/


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 29, 2012, 04:04:30 PM
Good work, Miles. You found it. I actually thought it might have been on the old dna-forums.

... In an old thread about M222 being a La Tene marker, it seemed that you and others completely bought the idea.

Quote from: eochaid
EDIT: Mike, I think it was you who started a thread once about M222 being from Bavaria. Am I correct?

Miles, dig it up! but please start another topic if you want to talk about M222 and Bavaria. Please no general implications of associating topics and posters. Dig up the specifics you want to, that's fine.

Here it is, Mike!!

No, I don't wish to discuss the possibility of a Bavarian origin for M222, but if M222 could be Bavarian, then it's gong to be hard to put the origin of DF23 in the Isles. It will then be especially hard to put DF49's origin in the Isles....

You said you don't want to discuss, but you brought it up today in another thread.

Why bring up an old thread if you do want to discuss it?

Here's what I don't like. You said that I "completely bought into the idea." That is misleading. I think the odds are low that M222 is from Bavaria. I don't think it is impossible. That hardly means I've "completely bought in".

Do you have something specific to say when you bring stuff like this up or are you whining about a single issue you are concerned about? Is this what is bothering you? Do you have a predisposed notion that M222, DF23 and DF49 have to be from the Isles?
.... then it's gong to be hard to put the origin of DF23 in the Isles. It will then be especially hard to put DF49's origin in the Isles. ...




Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: eochaidh on August 29, 2012, 04:38:34 PM
Good work, Miles. You found it. I actually thought it might have been on the old dna-forums.

... In an old thread about M222 being a La Tene marker, it seemed that you and others completely bought the idea.

Quote from: eochaid
EDIT: Mike, I think it was you who started a thread once about M222 being from Bavaria. Am I correct?

Miles, dig it up! but please start another topic if you want to talk about M222 and Bavaria. Please no general implications of associating topics and posters. Dig up the specifics you want to, that's fine.

Here it is, Mike!!

No, I don't wish to discuss the possibility of a Bavarian origin for M222, but if M222 could be Bavarian, then it's gong to be hard to put the origin of DF23 in the Isles. It will then be especially hard to put DF49's origin in the Isles....

You said you don't want to discuss, but you brought it up today in another thread.

Why bring up an old thread if you do want to discuss it?

Here's what I don't like. You said that I "completely bought into the idea." That is misleading. I think the odds are low that M222 is from Bavaria. I don't think it is impossible. That hardly means I've "completely bought in".

Do you have something specific to say when you bring stuff like this up or are you whining about a single issue you are concerned about? Is this what is bothering you? Do you have a predisposed notion that M222, DF23 and DF49 have to be from the Isles?
.... then it's gong to be hard to put the origin of DF23 in the Isles. It will then be especially hard to put DF49's origin in the Isles. ...




Wow! I didn't say "you completely bought into the idea".... I said, "In an old thread about M222 being a La Tene marker, it seemed that you and others completely bought the idea", only "seemed".

I brought this Bavaria/M222 thread back up because it dealt with the M222/La Tene stuff I was posting about. It just "seems" to me that if the origin of M222 may be Continental and a La Tene Marker, then DF23 and DF49 would almost certainly be considered to be La Tene Markers or pre-La Tene Markers.

I have no predisposed opinion, but after all that I have read about the origin of M222 by you and others, it appears most likely to me that DF49, the grandfather of M222, would be Continental. Considering that we have several DF23 results from France and mine from Italy, and that each results equals at least a hundred or so Isles results, then it's looking like DF23 seems Continental as well.

Plus, no one seems to be able to show any archaeological evidence (pots, pans, artwork...) that there was movement from the Isles to the Continent. La Tene is evidence of movement from the Continent to the Isles. What is the evidence of any movement that would have brought M222, DF23, or DF49 from the Isles to the Continent?

EDIT: I thought we weren't supposed to get personal on here. It seems that what has been written is angry and accusative toward me.
Plus, it seems that no matter how much I write about DF49, DF23, M222 being Continental, I get accused of saying the exact opposite. I clearly do not believe that DF49 is from the Isles and I know that my DF23 is from Italy, so unless someone can show which culture brought my DF23 line got from Ireland to Italy, it must stand as it is.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: stoneman on August 29, 2012, 05:16:39 PM
M222 is Irish and 25 at 390 is ancestral.


Title: R1b-L21: DF49, DF23, M222 did any originate on the continent, the Isles or?
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 29, 2012, 05:50:30 PM
Wow! I didn't say "you completely bought into the idea".... I said, "In an old thread about M222 being a La Tene marker, it seemed that you and others completely bought the idea", only "seemed".

Your depiction of my consideration of the idea was still misleading, regardless of whether you added the word "seemed" or not.  There is no way I completely bought into it.

EDIT: I thought we weren't supposed to get personal on here. It seems that what has been written is angry and accusative toward me.

Why are you attributing anger to me? I'm not using all caps or calling you names or anything like that.

If someone says something misleading about someone else, which you did about me, I have every right to say so.

Out of sensitivty and consideration, I'll change the title of the thread so you can use more appropriately for topics you "seem" to post about.  (I think I can change the title - I'll try.) I'm not even going to use the word "British Isles", just "Isles."

It is your thread, do what you want with it.


Title: Re: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?
Post by: eochaidh on August 29, 2012, 05:57:16 PM
I'm wrong. I would not check with the French Heritage DNA Project to find DF49+, DF23-. It was a stupid idea on my part and I apologize.

No more, please, I give up.