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Title: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2010, 06:56:19 AM
I was surprised to find a fairly high frequency of R1b1b2 in the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults). It looks like much of it is probably P310-, but it is still interesting to find so much R1b1b2.

Ancient Assyria, of course, originated in northern Iraq on the upper Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The Assyrian Empire expanded from that center.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: NealtheRed on July 06, 2010, 08:18:39 AM
This is very interesting. Would you happen to know a percentage of the Assyrian population that is R1b1b2?

That area has been the crossroads of different civilizations for millenia.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 06, 2010, 09:02:06 AM
Assyrian R1b1b2 are all R1b1b2a(L23+). The fact that they lack upstream clades (no R1b1b2* and less R1b1* etc.) isn't in favour of an origin of this haplogroup in that region.
R1b1b2a arrived there from elsewhere.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: OConnor on July 06, 2010, 09:02:35 AM
(The Motherland?)

In Recent News:

Mesopotamia’s civilization originated in Armenia
Unique discoveries revealed as a result of excavations at Shengavit (4000-3000 B.C.) confirm that Armenia is the motherland of metallurgy, jeweler’s art, wine-making and horse breeding.
(more..) http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/society/news/50844/

Armenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2010, 10:09:24 AM
This is very interesting. Would you happen to know a percentage of the Assyrian population that is R1b1b2?

That area has been the crossroads of different civilizations for millenia.

I remember seeing some studies in the past but I didn't bookmark them. In the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project R1b1b2 is the most frequent group,  but the sample size is fairly small: 53 (including "Unassigned Members"). Of that number, 10 R1b1b2 are "Assigned Members" (there are 40 "assigned" members) and there are at least two more in the "Unassigned" category. That means 25% of the regular members of the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project are R1b1b2.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2010, 10:13:23 AM
Assyrian R1b1b2 are all R1b1b2a(L23+). The fact that they lack upstream clades (no R1b1b2* and less R1b1* etc.) isn't in favour of an origin of this haplogroup in that region.
R1b1b2a arrived there from elsewhere.

I don't know how you know that. One cannot tell it from looking at the Y-DNA Results page of the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project.

Besides, who claimed R1b1b2 originated in northern Iraq?

All I said in my original post is that the frequency of R1b1b2 in that project surprised me.

I do think it is likely that R1b1b2 originated in SW Asia somewhere, though.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 06, 2010, 10:46:56 AM
Rich writes: "I don't know how you know that".

Two of them (Sahadi: 56/131176, Pera: 92/N20819) are in the "ht35 project" of Vizachero and are SNPs tested as R1b1b2a.
Many others are very closely related (see the very fast mutating markers DYS607, DYS576, DYS570, CDYa,b). If you want I'll probably be able to say when they arrived to Iraq, from where and how many were the founders.

The fact that there aren't upstream and downstream clades of R1b1b2a isn't in favour of a nearby origin of that haplogroup to Iraq, but the sign of a casual expansion in a precise frame of time.
Jews could think to the "exile" (if they will be able to demonstrate that this haplogroup was jewish at that time).


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: NealtheRed on July 06, 2010, 12:15:37 PM
Assyrian R1b1b2 are all R1b1b2a(L23+). The fact that they lack upstream clades (no R1b1b2* and less R1b1* etc.) isn't in favour of an origin of this haplogroup in that region.
R1b1b2a arrived there from elsewhere.


All I said in my original post is that the frequency of R1b1b2 in that project surprised me.

I do think it is likely that R1b1b2 originated in SW Asia somewhere, though.

I was also astonished to see that R1b1b2 out-manned R1a1, among other haplogroups in the project.

I am not too familiar with Assyrian history, other than knowing about the Parthian/Persian Empires that included its territory.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: MHammers on July 06, 2010, 02:47:29 PM
Wasn't the Assyrian kingdom destroyed by the Medes and Cimmerians (both IE related) in the 600's BC.  As to R1b1b2, it is probably much older in SW Asia, but later incoming groups like the Medes could have brought another layer as Indo-Europeans.  


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: rms2 on July 07, 2010, 08:25:09 AM
Rich writes: "I don't know how you know that".

Two of them (Sahadi: 56/131176, Pera: 92/N20819) are in the "ht35 project" of Vizachero and are SNPs tested as R1b1b2a.
Many others are very closely related (see the very fast mutating markers DYS607, DYS576, DYS570, CDYa,b). If you want I'll probably be able to say when they arrived to Iraq, from where and how many were the founders.

The fact that there aren't upstream and downstream clades of R1b1b2a isn't in favour of a nearby origin of that haplogroup to Iraq, but the sign of a casual expansion in a precise frame of time.
Jews could think to the "exile" (if they will be able to demonstrate that this haplogroup was jewish at that time).

If you can tell us where they all came from, when, and how many original founders there were, go ahead. That would be interesting.

Personally, I still suspect you are saying too much based on too little information and assuming from a fairly small sample that there are no men among the Assyrians whose ancestors branched off upstream or downstream of L23.





Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 07, 2010, 01:19:48 PM
Sahadi and Pera are R1b1b2a (tested). Bacchus is R1b1b2a (tested), then are R1b1b2a also Paul and Oshana,
very close to him: the 5 markers I mentioned above: 15,18,17,36,36 / 15,18,17,36,36 / 15,18,17,34,35. Then
there is a R1b1b2a with DYS393=13 from 12.Then also Hurmis and Simon are R1b1b2a.
Nobody has DYS426 different from 12, then nobody is R1b1b2* nor R1b1b2/L51+.
The most different haplotypes are the first three, but they have DYS393=12 and DYS426=12: they are R1b1b2a.
They are of "Armenian" origin as haplotype, and Armenians are Indo-Europeans come to Caucasus I think from Europe,
but West Europe and not East: the Armenian haplotype is found also in West Europe, from Italy to the
British Isles.
Remember what I said about the origin not only of hg. R1b but also R1a from West Europe (I found the remnants in
the Rhaetian Region) and see what have said recently Argiedude about the most ancient R1a.
A very different haplotype from Iraq is that of Zebary I put on Ysearch with DYS452=28: all Western European
haplotypes have the modal 30.

For what I have said I think that these R1b1b2a are of ancient Western European origin linked with the expansion
of Indo-Europeans to the Caucasus and then to Iraq and Iran. They brought there the haplotype of that time, R1b1b2a,
and not the subclades not yet born.
If you look at the same site of the Assyrian data, you can se that the mtDNAs are mostly of Western European origin.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: rms2 on July 07, 2010, 07:02:31 PM
Gioiello,

The idea that R1b1b2 originated in Western Europe and spread east seems to me indefensible, given the haplotype and SNP evidence. In fact, it is exactly the opposite of what the evidence indicates.

I didn't find your explanation of what you think you see in the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project all that convincing either. You seem to simply make assertions.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 08, 2010, 02:53:53 AM
I did assertions and previsions (Assyrian R1b is R1b1b2a, and this can be verified): science
is previsions and verifications. I am waiting for an aDNA test and I think we all should be.
I have brought in these last years infinite previsions for my theory and you should ask who
stands behind yours: Vizachero, and which is his agenda. In favour of some of my theories has
brought some proofs Argiedude: see them. Argiedude has been offended by Vizachero.
Another who has his theories is Klyosov. I don't agree with him but I respect him, who is a great
chemist. Vizachero has offended him and you too and forced him to leave the forum (I hope temporarily).
I think we all should be more tolerant and wait for definite proofs: the aDNA test.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 08, 2010, 03:09:52 AM
About the Assyrian mtDNA, this is a letter of one of the greatest expert over the world of hg. K (one of the Western hgs. in Iraq):

Hello Gioiello
Thank you for the note. I understand what you are saying - but your sequence is a normal K1a1b1 sequence and I have added it temporarily as '11a' to my webpage. http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/k1a1_genbank_sequences.htm The mutation G9932A is interesting as it matches that found in American sequence, and I think we can presume that sequence came from an Italian-American ! I would suggest that the Haplogroup K1a originated in Western Europe - with perhaps just the occasional person going East, whilst most spread over the whole of Europe. Best wishes Ian

 Dear Logan,
I thank you and I'll do what you said. Not being able to use my PC deeply, I can't do now an examination of my FGS, that is pretty the same I did know after the previous exams (SMGF, deCODEme, 23andME). I did FTDNA only by the low price and for being sure of my mutation on 11204 that already 23andME signalled me. Referring to what Hurst wrote to me yesterday ("I see 11204C in K1a1b in an Indian sequence on Dr. Behar's K tree. In the K Project, it appears only in four members of K2a, so that would have to be independent", pehaps Palanichamy 2004, p. 972) I ask you if it is possible that that Indian and me belong to the same haplogroup, but we have in common only this 11204 mutation, that could be hetheroplasmic and fixed only on our haplogroup. Then we could be a K1a1b from which was generated K1a1b1 and the K1a1b1a. I have always thought that Hg. K was born in the Italian Refugium, like U5b3 and U5a2, ad perhaps also N1b1 etc. and above all YDNA R1b1* to R-L51, and this becomes more and more reliable by these last findings. Of course many thousands of years separate me from this Indian, but I find my closest match on FTDNA in North/North East Europe, and probably nobody lived there during the LGM.
Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni 


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on July 08, 2010, 03:26:05 AM
Wasn't the Assyrian kingdom destroyed by the Medes and Cimmerians (both IE related) in the 600's BC.  As to R1b1b2, it is probably much older in SW Asia, but later incoming groups like the Medes could have brought another layer as Indo-Europeans.  

It is not disputed that the Assyrian ruling class was annihilated.  It is also not disputed that the Assyrian Empire, or any sovereign state going by that name, has, ever since the sacking of Nineveh, again come into existence.  

What is, however, very much disputed, is the contention that the Assyrian people themselves were totally and utterly vanquished.  I do not blame one for taking this as the gospel, seeing as it is regurgitated time and time again in many past and contemporary texts.  However many times it is repeated, though, makes it no less a fallacy.  The truth is that the Assyrian people survived the destruction of their state, and then as subjugated people of the many conquering powers that swept across the Fertile Crescent in the subsequent centuries.  Persian, Greek, and Roman references attesting to what I have just stated, are abundant.  For example, please refer to the accounts of Herodotus: http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.7.vii.html

The most powerful evidence, however, for the continuity of the Assyrian people from the destruction of their state through to the present is not from some ancient text, regardless of the irreproachability of it source.  The most powerful support for the continuity is in the Assyrian people of today.  Literally!  I can sit here and cite other apparently presumptive evidence for their continuity, such as the line of patriarchal succession of the Assyrian Church of the East since the very earliest days of Christianity.  Or the fact that to this day the Assyrian people have retained, as their vernacular the language of Jesus Christ --the lingua franca of the Assyrian Empire at the time of its collapse-- in its modern form, Neo-Aramaic.  Or the continual use of traditional Assyrian names and customs stretching as far back as the written record provides.  But, I digress.  The strongest argument that the Assyrians of today, are the Assyrians of antiquity, lies in their genetic identity.  We can all agree that from no one measure of a population's DNA can a conclusive opinion be drawn.  For example, based solely on mtDNA haplogroup/haplotype data.  But, what if a people were unique in not just their mtDNA haplogroup/haplotype data, but also in their Y-DNA and autosomal data?  Well, that is precisely what we have seen thus far with the Assyrians.  What is necessary, now, is for a reputable researcher to conduct a thorough examination of this question using modern DNA analysis tools.  

Now, to get to why I began this post in the first place, I wish to share with you all a phylogenetic tree of a number of R1b1b2a men, testing 67 markers. The cyan denotes Armenian samples. The sole Assyrian sample is denoted by the red marker. Green markers denote Jewish samples. The blue samples are from Vince Vizachero's project.  A couple of the samples are annotated.  All others are labeled by their FTDNA kit #s.  

(http://wehrkreis.com/PH_runc.gif)
http://wehrkreis.com/PH_runc.gif (http://wehrkreis.com/PH_runc.gif)


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 08, 2010, 08:26:49 AM
Something to say on Volkov, signed as a Jew in your diagram and passed off as the origin of R1b1b2a.
There are many Volkov on Ysearch, one I put there from SMGF (NDZNC).
RMMP3 declares many surnames, also from maternal line, none of them seems Jewish (FALIKOV TOKMACHEV
ZHABOTINSKY VOLNIANSKY PUGACHEV KONONOV KACHKO FALIKOV). He says: "Additional information about Paternal Line:
My paternal line is less researched comparing to maternal, but as far as I know, my great-grandfather
came from Ekaterinoslavl (now Dnepropetrovsk). I am researching on my all lines and have more data (up
to mid 16th century) in other ancestors. My mather's paternal ancestors came from Bessarabia (Falikov
and Genesin), maternal from Volhinia (Volniansky), and Rzhev (Tver county in Russia)".
5MMP3 is R1b1 (tested). MKGW3 as unknown. FP4EJ (Volkov/Burney) as R1b1b2a1b. NDNZC, tested by SMGF and
having DYS461=11, I can say R1b1b2a. The only thing unknown seems the paternal origin, anyway he matches
above all Western Europeans.
In a previous exam I did on DYF471, I think having demonstrated that Volkov isn't at the origin of this
haplogroup but the most derived.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 09, 2010, 05:22:00 AM
Actually watching the Volkov's site www.avolkov.com/gen a Jewish line in his family
there is: Falikov/Gnesin. That Volkov has been a Russification of Falikov is also
likely. At 12 markers he matches above all Jews, but with DYS426=12. The unique with DYS426=10
is a Cuban (Perez: R9BQA) and we can also hypothesize that he is a descendant of Marranos
from Spain and the mutation of DYS426 from 12 to 10 a SNPlike mutation.
But on YHRD this haplotype seems rooted in Slavs from Central Europe, then the most ancient
Slavs in their Fatherland.
As to attribute this haplotype to Europeans or to Jews is important for the history of hg. R1b1b2a
I think that more inquires are needed.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 10, 2010, 04:16:13 AM
Comparing the Ht35 Modal haplotype (WHUFZ), the closest is Romitti (PWN78): GD of 5 over 70.
Then I suggest that the node of the diagram of Humanist is where Romitti (N37658) and  Skoda (118282) depart. Another point for Italy, I think.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 12, 2010, 05:51:52 AM
Dear Humanist, your mitochondrial is H2b and not HV4, even though you have the key-mutation T7094C.
It isn't older than 7000 years. Probably the closest found so far is from Ireland (see TDA4S: an Italian-American but from an Irish mother, but we should have her coding region).


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 12, 2010, 06:08:25 AM
Probably H2a2a watching Phylotree.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 12, 2010, 07:54:47 AM
Yes, of course the river flows from the source (CRS): then HV4.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on July 16, 2010, 09:18:29 PM
Hi Maliclavelli.  Yes, you are correct.  I am indeed HV4.  FGS confirmed. 


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: NealtheRed on July 17, 2010, 01:12:18 PM
Ah, another HV4! We are not common these days, my friend. My MDKA is from Avellino, Campania, Italy.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: A.D. on August 09, 2010, 03:13:21 PM
Wasn't the Assyrian kingdom destroyed by the Medes and Cimmerians (both IE related) in the 600's BC.  As to R1b1b2, it is probably much older in SW Asia, but later incoming groups like the Medes could have brought another layer as Indo-Europeans.  

wern't the Hittites (from anotolia)  the previous big guns in the area before their empire and out pose went as far as canaan
they spoke indo-european created a massive milatary fort/city Hattush in the middle of nowhere
they according to some sorces were a 'brotherhood' of soldier
totaly male dominated cocerned with having as many sons as possable to boost their ranks of lotale soldiers  then disappeared without a trace after a civil war/ family bust-up (seemingly the same thing in this case)
could be we found where they went .


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: MHammers on August 09, 2010, 05:34:45 PM
Wasn't the Assyrian kingdom destroyed by the Medes and Cimmerians (both IE related) in the 600's BC.  As to R1b1b2, it is probably much older in SW Asia, but later incoming groups like the Medes could have brought another layer as Indo-Europeans.  

wern't the Hittites (from anotolia)  the previous big guns in the area before their empire and out pose went as far as canaan
they spoke indo-european created a massive milatary fort/city Hattush in the middle of nowhere
they according to some sorces were a 'brotherhood' of soldier
totaly male dominated cocerned with having as many sons as possable to boost their ranks of lotale soldiers  then disappeared without a trace after a civil war/ family bust-up (seemingly the same thing in this case)
could be we found where they went .

The Hittites had their empire in Anatolia, but their language was probably from the north.  They absorbed alot of the Hatti people (non-IE) when they invaded.  It is not clear as to what dna is actually IE and/or Hittite in Turkey today.  


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: A.D. on August 09, 2010, 06:22:16 PM
there is an awful lot uncear about the hittites but thet certainly seemed puposfull.
iam i right in thinking tha the area around Hatush is still sparesely populated and has been scince their deprarture leaving a dna trail unliklt i mean there was so few left that they would have little if any trace. it is not an area inclined for settlement of the city building kind. far more sutable for nomads or horse breeders. it seem feasable that hese expert ( and specialist 3 man chariot) chrioeeers could have turned up in the newly rising assyrian army.
famosly Uriah the hittite is mentioned in the bible fighting in Davids army settled in isreal.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 07, 2012, 09:22:36 PM
Gioiello,

The idea that R1b1b2 originated in Western Europe and spread east seems to me indefensible, given the haplotype and SNP evidence. In fact, it is exactly the opposite of what the evidence indicates.

I didn't find your explanation of what you think you see in the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project all that convincing either. You seem to simply make assertions.

-- MESSAGE SEGMENT DELETED --  Terry


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 07, 2012, 09:53:06 PM
If you look at the same site of the Assyrian data, you can se that the mtDNAs are mostly of Western European origin.

I would not go by the Assyrian project data.  There are individuals of non-Assyrian origin participating, including some Levantine Christians.  Plus, there are many Assyrians on 23andMe, whose data one cannot see by viewing the FTDNA project page.  This is the most recent mtDNA distribution for Assyrians:

N=64

H   26.6%
U   25.0%
HV   15.6%
J   14.1%
T   9.4%
K   3.1%
I   1.6%
N   1.6%
W   1.6%
X   1.6%


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 07, 2012, 10:22:03 PM
If you look at the same site of the Assyrian data, you can se that the mtDNAs are mostly of Western European origin.

I would not go by the Assyrian project data.  There are individuals of non-Assyrian origin participating, including some Levantine Christians.  Plus, there are many Assyrians on 23andMe, whose data one cannot see by viewing the FTDNA project page.  This is the most recent mtDNA distribution for Assyrians:

N=64

H   26.6%
U   25.0%
HV   15.6%
J   14.1%
T   9.4%
K   3.1%
I   1.6%
N   1.6%
W   1.6%
X   1.6%


I would ignore those statements. Some people will deny the West Asianess of Western Europeans regardless of what science says. The gene flow is the other way around. There is no Western European ancestry in Asia only some Eastern European ancestry due to Indo-Iranians, Tocharians etc


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: palamede on May 08, 2012, 05:16:45 PM
Armenian studies: According to the origin of samped Armenians

ARV Ararat Valley (Armenia n =110 R1b-M269xL23 5 R1b-L23 36 J2 26
GRD Gardman (NW Azerbaid n=96  R1b-M269xL23 0 R1b-L23 30 J2 J2 31
Van Lake Van (East Turkey) n=103 R1b-M269xL23 0 R1b-L23 33 J2 30
SAS Sasoun (S-East Turkey) n=104  R1b-M269xL23 0 R1b-L23 21 J2 16 strong presence of hg T 21 and R2 18 corresponding to a referenced historical event: Mamikonian dynasty from 330 to 775  in Sasoun (coming from Iran ?)

Assyrian results are similar to Armenian results.  Same for Alaouites of NW Syria N=104 R1b 34% while their neighbouring Karamanic  Turks are  14%. Results with Athey predictor. Origin of R1b Alaouite : Neo-Hittite kingdoms in North Syria and Cilicia ?

In dna-forums (its stop is scandalous and a judiciary action againt George Van Der Merwede must be put in action for abusive behavior, a lot of people wrote and this can be considered as the intellectual property, not financial (we can consider  it is the price of the hosting),  but moral  )  Handshar created a lot of posts with great value about Near and Middle East.
Don't confuse modern Assyrians and old Assyrian empire although modern people of Assyrian religion are partly descendants of the subjects of Assyrian kings.
Easter Assyrians trace their ancestries in the churches of the Adiabene kingdom (Capital Arbela)
Western Assyrians from Adiabene, Osroene (Edessa kingdom), Gordyene (between Armenia (north) and Adiabene (south)), Sophene between Commagene and Cappadocia (West) Armenia (north), Osrhoene (south) . See map of Handshar of Tigrane empire, I noticed.


Kurds n=370 E1b1b 8,9% G 4,1% I (probably balkanic I2a2) 10,0% J1 13,5% J2 21,6% K (probable T) 4,3% L 3,5% P (probable R2) 7,0%   R1a1-M17 11,9% R1b 11,4%
About I, Handshar said it is a difference between Armenians and Assyrians , because 5% of I2a2 in Armenians and not present in Assyrians.

Myres et al.-2010 frequency of R1b-L23*
2 small tribes of Daghestan NE Caucasus
Bagvalals 67.9% 6,500 people of language in  avaro-andi group of NE Caucasian family
Tabasarans 37,2% 110,000 of language in lezguiangroup of NE Caucasian family
Cappadocia (Turkey) 14,6%
2 more important people in Daghestan
Kumiks (Daghestan) 14,5% language Turk-Kipshak
Lezgis 12,9% of language in lezguian family of NE Caucasian family


I agree with nobody except with myself. I don't accept too fast mutation rates (specially effective rates)
For me,  R1b in Middle East and Anatolia came partly at the beginning of LGM as etensions of the balkanic refugia, partly from Balkans with IE migrations (Hittites, Louwites, Lydians, Phrygians, Armenians, Mosches, Thraces, Greeks, ..).

R1b-L23* arrived in SE Europe from Western and Central Europa at the beginning in LGM (Before 22,000BP) and South Balkanic R23 didn't know the avatars of R1b-L23 in Western Europe during the terrible cold peaks of LGM from 23,000BP to 15,000BP, the population was reduced several times to some hundred people: L23* disapppeared and only derived haplogroups survived and succeeded to populate W Europe again.  

Probably hg I survived with very reduced groups in some oasis of last forests of Central Europe and North Balkans . If present in W Europe before LGM,  hg I was removed except Sardinia maybe. I  believe I2a1-M26  in W Europe come from Sardinia and Italy with Cardial and Bell Beakers later. Important presence of G2a, first in Cardial, then  in Bell Beakers from Portugal and W Mediterranee. I don't know the itinerary  of G2a cardial  from Black Sea. Danubian (LBK) G2a is more easy to follow from Black Sea by Danube. J2b continental from North Greece in Danubian wave  with E1b1b-V13, J2a maritime in Cardial, but J2 seems coming after G2 in the 2 roads (Danube and Med coasts) .


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 08, 2012, 06:06:05 PM
Thank you very much for the kind words, palamede.  With all due respect, however, I do not agree with some of what was stated, regarding confusing "modern Assyrians and old Assyrian empire."  I do not claim absolute continuity, but, I certainly believe I am no less a son of ancient Nineveh, than a Greek man is a son of ancient Athens, and an Armenian man is a son of ancient Ararat...  

Please read through the last 6 pages of the thread I am providing a link to below.  The totality of the data, including the genetic record (autosomal, mtDNA, and Y-DNA), does not suggest significant discontinuity.  

And thank you again for taking the time to reply to this thread and sharing your thoughts.  I do appreciate it.

I post under the moniker "Humanist," at the forum linked to below:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.net/showthread.php?t=13197&page=11 (http://www.forumbiodiversity.net/showthread.php?t=13197&page=11)

Also, from the eminent Assyriologist, Simo Parpola, regarding our millennia-old self-appellation:

Quote
It is important to draw attention to the fact that the Aramaic-speaking peoples of the Near East have since ancient times identified themselves as Assyrians and still continue to do so. The self-designations of modern Syriacs and Assyrians, Sūryōyō and Sūrāyā, are both derived from the ancient Assyrian word for "Assyrian", Aššūrāyu, as can be easily established from a closer look at the relevant words.

The word Aššūrāyu is an adjective derived from the geographical and divine name Aššur with the gentilic suffix -āyu. This name was originally pronounced [Aššūr], with a palato-alveolar fricative, but owing to a sound shift, its pronunciation was turned to [Aθθūr] in the early second millennium BC. The common Aramaic word for Assyria, Āθūr, reflects this pronunciation and in all probability dates back to the twelfth century BC, when the Aramean tribes first came into contact with the Assyrians. Towards the end of the second millennium, another sound shift took place in Assyrian, turning the pronunciation of the name into [Assūr]. Since unstressed vowels and even whole syllables were often dropped in Neo-Assyrian at the beginning of words, this name form later also had a shorter variant, [Sūr], attested in alphabetic writings of personal names containing the element Aššur in late seventh century BC Aramaic documents from Assyria. The Neo-Assyrian word [Assūrāyu], “Assyrian”, thus likewise had a shorter variant [Sūrāyu] in the seventh century. This variant is hidden behind standard orthography in Assyrian cuneiform texts, but its existence is confirmed by the classical Greek words for Assyrians and Assyria, which display a corresponding variation between forms with initial A- (Assúrios/Assuría) and ones without it (Súrios/Súros/Suría; see AppendixIII).The Greeks, who were in frequent contact with Assyria in the eighth and seventh centuries BC,57 would not have borrowed the word without the initial A-, had the Assyrians themselves not omitted it, since omission of initial vowels is not a feature of classical Greek phonology.

Phonologically, Modern Assyrian Sūrāyā perfectly agrees with Neo-Assyrian [Sūrāyu], while Syriac Sūryōyō displays an intrusive yod, which it shares with Greek Súrios and Suría. This intrusive yod surely is due to Greek influence, since in classical Syriac the word also occurs in the form Sūrōyō, in perfect agreement with the Modern Assyrian Sūrāyā. It is worth noting that Sūrāyā is reported to have a variant with initial A-, but this is avoided in careful speech, since it instinctively sounds incorrect in view of the classical Syriac Sūryōyō. Since omission of initial vowels is not a feature of Aramaic phonology, the lack of the initial A- in Sūrāyā/Sūr(y)ōyō cannot be due to internal Aramaic development but must go back directly to Neo-Assyrian.

Footnotes:
[Assūr] ~ [Sūr] has a perfect parallel in the NA forms of another important divine name, Ištar (NA [Iššār]), which was also realized as [Šār] in Neo-Assyrian, see PNA 1/I, xxv. As in the case of [Sūr], the short form [Šār] is effectively concealed behind the prodominantly logographic or ossified cuneiform spellings of the divine name ((d)15, dINNIN, dIŠ.TAR), but its existence is raised beyond any doubt by the NA spellings of the Urartian royal name Sarduri [Šārdūri], which is written varyingly as m(d)15-du-ri, mdINNIN-du-ri or msa-ar-du-ri in the Neo-Assyrian royal inscriptions (see PNA 2/I 568f; note also the spelling URU.15-BÀD-a-ni = Sarduriani in ABL 147 = SAA 5 97 r.11). The “rebus” spellings m(d)15-du-ri and mdINNIN-BÀD/du-ri, implying the short form [Šār], are already attested in several inscriptions of Tiglath-Pileser III from c. 740 BC, and continue to be found in the letters and inscriptions of Sargon II (721-705) and Assurbanipal (668-630; for the latter, note m15-BÀD LUGAL KUR.ur-arţi in Streck 1916, 84:40, and mdI[Š.TAR-du-r]i LUGAL KUR.ú-ra-ar-ţi-im-[ma], ABL 1240:4-5). Like [Sūr], the short form [Šār] is also explicitly attested in Aramaic alphabetic spelling (cf. šrdrq’l = md15–BÀD-qa-a-li [Iššār-dūr-qāli], AECT 31) and in NB spellings of the Neo-Assyrian name Issār-tarība (mdiš-šar–ta-ri-bi, mdiš-šár–ta-ribi, mšar–ta-ri-bi, mdšár–ta-ri-bi, md15–ta-ri-bi, and mdIŠ.TAR–ta-ri-bi, all referring tothe same person), see Zadok 1984, 4.

Simo Parpola speaking about Assyrian identity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbjfCTtcCms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbjfCTtcCms)

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87inek%C3%B6y_inscription (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87inek%C3%B6y_inscription)


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: palamede on May 08, 2012, 06:26:12 PM
Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans
Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17%

As I understand For Phokaia (Phocée in french, mother of Massilia/Marseille) and  , Smyrnia, 2 harbours of the old Ionia and Eolia in the west coast of Turkey, they sampled descendants Greeks originated of these towns. As you know the Greek population of Anatolia (3500years of presence) were forced to migrate to Greece, America and Australia, but it is possible the descendants of ancient moslem inhabitants of these towns are not very different genetically, they could be mostly old converted Greeks.
For the anectod, the french prime minister for 1995-1997 was from Marseille, his family came from Smyrnia and before was Armenians (Balladurian) of Nakhichevan.

For  NeoNikomedia in Macedonia, Sesklo/Dimini in Thesssalia, Lerna/Franchti in the East coast of Peloponnésia, south of Argos, they are villages with famous sites of mesolithitic and old neolithic.


Proportion of R1a in Near and Middle East according to Athey predictor (Handschar)
Druze(366) 1% Palestinian Christians(44) 2% Alaouites(104) 2% Assyrian (106) 2% Irak Jews (79) 0% Iran Jews (49) 4% Armenians (1147) 4% Niraq Jews (99) 4% Yezidis (196) 2% Maronites (196) 0%  Yemen Jews (74) 3%    


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 10, 2012, 09:06:17 AM
Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans

Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17% ....

Where is Gardmann?

Is there a commonality between the higher R1b frequency locations like Ararat Valley, Gardmann, Lake Van, Smyrnia and Phokaia?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: palamede on May 10, 2012, 01:17:19 PM
Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans

Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17% ....

Where is Gardmann?

Is there a commonality between the higher R1b frequency locations like Ararat Valley, Gardmann, Lake Van, Smyrnia and Phokaia?

According to the paper Gardman is in NW Azerbaidjan, . The samples  of Armenians of this town or originated from this town. With the Karabag war, there were a lot of displacements in 1990-1995.
Sasoun was an Armenian town at mid-distance between  Van Lake and Diarbekir.

For the commonaly between old Armenian areas and old Greek-Ionan/Eolian harbours was  both peoples Armenians and Ionians  were a mixture of IE arrivals from 3000BC  to 1000BC with the old Anatolian background.
I supposed J and G represented the old Anatolian background. For R1b-L23* is more difficult to distinguish, but at least, we can suppose a great part of IE migrations were composed of R1b-L23* Balkanics where they were indigenous and integrated like the main demographic component of IE cultures (After 4500/4000BC and before the Thraces) in Thrace, Macedoine,   and Lower Danube  between Belgrade and the mouthes, culturally and politically dominated by a small minority of initial IE herders  coming from Pontic Steppes and around the Tripolye towns.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 10, 2012, 01:49:22 PM
Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans

Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17% ....
Where is Gardmann?
Is there a commonality between the higher R1b frequency locations like Ararat Valley, Gardmann, Lake Van, Smyrnia and Phokaia?

According to the paper Gardman is in NW Azerbaidjan, . The samples  of Armenians of this town or originated from this town. With the Karabag war, there were a lot of displacements in 1990-1995.
Sasoun was an Armenian town at mid-distance between  Van Lake and Diarbekir.

For the commonaly between old Armenian areas and old Greek-Ionan/Eolian harbours was  both peoples Armenians and Ionians  were a mixture of IE arrivals from 3000BC  to 1000BC with the old Anatolian background.
I supposed J and G represented the old Anatolian background. For R1b-L23* is more difficult to distinguish, but at least, we can suppose a great part of IE migrations were composed of R1b-L23* Balkanics where they were indigenous and integrated like the main demographic component of IE cultures (After 4500/4000BC and before the Thraces) in Thrace, Macedoine,   and Lower Danube  between Belgrade and the mouthes, culturally and politically dominated by a small minority of initial IE herders  coming from Pontic Steppes and around the Tripolye towns.

Does the paper or are there other papers that make this supposition?  Are they archaeological artifacts that attest to a movement of people from the Balkan Peninsula into this area of Anatolia?



Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 10, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans

Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17% ....
Where is Gardmann?
Is there a commonality between the higher R1b frequency locations like Ararat Valley, Gardmann, Lake Van, Smyrnia and Phokaia?

According to the paper Gardman is in NW Azerbaidjan, . The samples  of Armenians of this town or originated from this town. With the Karabag war, there were a lot of displacements in 1990-1995.
Sasoun was an Armenian town at mid-distance between  Van Lake and Diarbekir.

For the commonaly between old Armenian areas and old Greek-Ionan/Eolian harbours was  both peoples Armenians and Ionians  were a mixture of IE arrivals from 3000BC  to 1000BC with the old Anatolian background.
I supposed J and G represented the old Anatolian background. For R1b-L23* is more difficult to distinguish, but at least, we can suppose a great part of IE migrations were composed of R1b-L23* Balkanics where they were indigenous and integrated like the main demographic component of IE cultures (After 4500/4000BC and before the Thraces) in Thrace, Macedoine,   and Lower Danube  between Belgrade and the mouthes, culturally and politically dominated by a small minority of initial IE herders  coming from Pontic Steppes and around the Tripolye towns.

Does the paper or are there other papers that make this supposition?  Are they archaeological artifacts that attest to a movement of people from the Balkan Peninsula into this area of Anatolia?



Well one of the most popular ideas is that the Hittites came from the Balkans or Caususes and they did at one stage rule all the lands of the early Assyrian empire.  Not sure of the details but at different stages they massively overlapped the same lands.  Its almost impossible to think the Hittites and other Anatolians were not IE through L23* because there is really no other option in the area.  If you buy into the Kurgan hypothesis and the idea that languages spread with genes then I supposee L23* almost has to be the smoking gun of IE and the Anatolian IEs and in turn if the Kurgan hypothesis is right and the linguists who see them as an early break off are right then L23* people must have been located to the north of Turkey somewhe.  I would imagine in the Kurgan theory that would really have had to place it somewhere like the Caucuses or in the Balkans or adjacent.  I quite fancy being collaterally related to the Hittites :0)


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 10, 2012, 04:25:14 PM
and given that the Semetic Assyrians derive from the Akkadians of northern Mesopotamia it seems incredibly unlikely to me that they were the L23* source in the area.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 10, 2012, 04:32:04 PM
..and further Troy may have been Luwian speaking, another Anatolian IE language.  So maybe we can claim to cousins of the Trojans too!


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 10, 2012, 04:39:25 PM
..and further Troy may have been Luwian speaking, another Anatolian IE language.  So maybe we can claim to cousins of the Trojans too!

We already have... or at least Nennius ("Historia Britonum") and Geoffrey ("Historia Regum Britanniae"), already have.    "The island of Britain derives its name from Brutus, a Roman consul" and "Brutus is the grandson or great grandson of Aeneas." "Aeneas settled in Italy after the Trojan War."  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutus_of_Troy

I guess that gives us the full Italo-Celtic connection.  Seriously, Is there any affinity between the Anatolian and Italic or Celtic language other than PIE?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 10, 2012, 10:32:26 PM
and given that the Semetic Assyrians derive from the Akkadians of northern Mesopotamia...

This is an outdated notion, in my opinion. Combining the different Assyrian periods, some of which are separated by hundreds of years, is incorrect.  For instance, referring to the Assyrians as "Semitic," when much of the territory conquered and made "Assyrian," following the demise of Mittani had been Hurrian-speaking for many centuries, serves only to confuse.  Anatolian Turks speak a Turkic language. Do we refer to all of them as Turkic? Absolutely not.  Also, there is so much we have learned from archaeology, linguistics, etc., about Assyrians, Mesopotamia, and the region in general in the past decade or two, relying on old scholarship serves none of us well.

Two examples (of what are many), based on recent scholarship I believe demonstrate what I am trying to get at, in my reply above:

Simo Parpola. 2007c “The Neo-Assyrian Ruling Class,” in Thomas R. Kämmerer (ed.), Studien zur Ritual und Sozialgeschichte im Alten Orient / Studies on Ritual and Society in the Ancient Near East. Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft, Bd. 374. Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 257-274

Quote
Important changes had taken place in the composition of the imperial power elite. In the letter just quoted, the summoning of the sons of the old families to court is presented as a token of the king's love towards Nineveh; the writer thus reveals that the court positions, which the old family aristocracy traditionally held, were no longer renewed or self-evident. The writer tells us that when he recently saw the goddess Istar being carried in procession to her temple, he found no members of the old families of Nineveh among the carriers...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Akkadian and Sumerian Language Contact

by Gábor Zólyomi

forthcoming in Stefan Weninger, ed., Semitic Languages. An International Handbook (HSK 36). Berlin — New York, Mouton de Gruyter, pp. 387–393

Quote
A distinctive development of Akkadian phonology is the gradual merger and loss of the five reconstructed Proto-Semitic ‘guttural’ consonants */!/, */h/, */hø /, */"/, and */g/ by the 2nd millennium B.C.E. (cf. GAG § 23; Huehnergard 1998, 38!40, 587; Kouwenberg 2006). As Sumerian had no such phonemes, this development has been considered a prime example of Sumerian substrate influence on Akkadian.

In the Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, the presence of the newly emerged /e/ in turn caused every /a/ in the stem and the pronominal affixes of the verb to change to /e/, a development known as ‘Babylonian Vowel Harmony’ (Kouwenberg 2001, 226). As a similar rule causing the assimilation of different vowels within a word played an important role in Sumerian (see Keetman 2005, 11!13), Keetman suggested that Babylonian Vowel Harmony might reflect the influence of Sumerian (2004, 11).

These developments started in about the 24th century B.C.E. and were completed by the first part of the 2nd millennium B.C.E. They therefore overlap in time with the period of assumed asymmetrical bilingualism. One is therefore tempted to assume that these phonological changes may in fact reflect the influence of a Sumerian speaking population gradually shifting to Akkadian. Hasselbach finds that contrary to expectations the orthography indicates the loss of gutturals and the phonemicization of /e/ in texts from the north first, but not from the south. She does, however, note the possibility that the Akkadian of the southern texts ‘might have been a learned literary language that was not native to this area’.

In addition to loanwords, there exist a number of Sumerian and Akkadian idioms which correspond to each other word for word, e.g. šag-še — gid = ana libbim šadadum ‘to consider earnestly’ (lit. ‘to draw to the heart’) (cf. Edzard 2003, 175!176).


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 10, 2012, 10:50:31 PM
Tell Nader Project / Tell Baqrta Project (2011)
Dr. Konstantinos Kopanias

Quote
As literacy dawns over the horizon of prehistory the first ethnic group whom we know to have inhabited the region [Arbil and its environs] are the Hurrians. This is not to say there were not other groups. There almost certainly were. Texts over these millennia relating to the eastern frontiers of Mesopotamia (for instance Ur III administrative documents and the Shemshara archives) contain a large number of personal names whose linguistic affiliation has not yet been established and it is, in my view, probable that parent languages will one be day be recognised and reconstructed for at least some of them. Be that as it may, the Hurrians are the earliest definable group for whose presence in the region we currently have evidence; followed closely by the Sumerians.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cambridge Prof. Geoffrey Khan. "The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Barwar [N Iraq]" (2008)

Quote
As already shown by Krotkoff (1985: 124–126), a number of lexical items in the NENA [Northeastern Neo-Aramaic] dialects, especially those relating to agriculture, can be traced back beyond Classical Aramaic to Akkadian or even Sumerian.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colours in Late Bronze Mesopotamia. Some Hints on Wall Paintings from Dur Kurigalzu [Kassite], Nuzi [Mitanni] and Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta [Middle Assyrian]

by Sara Pizzimenti

in: R. Matthews et al. (eds), Proceedings of the 7th ICAANE, 12-16 April 2010, the British Museum and UCL, London, Vol. 2, Wiesbaden 2012: 303-318.

Quote
Conclusions

A visual coherence given by an iconographic, chromatic and iconological equilibrium and symmetry is present both in the ornamental wall paintings at Nuzi and Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta. Iconographically the scene is composed following a principle of balance and symmetry. This balance has also a chromatic correspondence in a black/white and red/blue opposition, and an iconological correspondence in the male and female elements opposition, opposite de facto, with Adad and Ishtar in the Nuzi paintings and with the Ishtar’s double nature in those of Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta. Extremely different are the Dur Kurigalzu paintings, where there is not this principle of balance and opposition, but where the use of colour is no more ‘evocative’ but aims to imitate reality. Finally, it is possible to point out a conscious use of colour in all the Late Bronze Age wall paintings, according to the subject represented. A symbolic and ‘evocative’ use of colour seems to be preferred in ornamental wall paintings, while an imitation of reality is present in figurative ones.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 10, 2012, 10:52:54 PM
.... combining the different Assyrian periods, some of which are separated by hundreds of years.  Referring to the Neo-Assyrians as "Semitic," when much of the territory conquered and made "Assyrian," following the demise of Mittani had been Hurrian-speaking for many centuries, serves only to confuse.  ...

Please describe anything further you can about the population in these periods.  I've read of the multiple periods of Troy. I can see that this region had many conquerors.  It is quite possible that that R1b lineages were quite numerous during some phases in some regions of Anatolia, and were "conquerors" in one phase but "conquered" in the next.  That doesn't mean they weren't still numerous, or given great cause to migrate west into Europe.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 10, 2012, 11:33:03 PM
.... combining the different Assyrian periods, some of which are separated by hundreds of years.  Referring to the Neo-Assyrians as "Semitic," when much of the territory conquered and made "Assyrian," following the demise of Mittani had been Hurrian-speaking for many centuries, serves only to confuse.  ...

Please describe anything further you can about the population in these periods.  I've read of the multiple periods of Troy. I can see that this region had many conquerors.  It is quite possible that that R1b lineages were quite numerous during some phases in some regions of Anatolia, and were "conquerors" in one phase but "conquered" in the next.  That doesn't mean they weren't still numerous, or given great cause to migrate west into Europe.

I have to get going, for a bit, but in the meantime, here are a few posts of mine from another forum (by no means exhaustive):

Hurrian as a living language in Ugaritic ["Semitic"] society
by Juan-Pablo Vita

D. A. Barreyra Fracaroli, and G. del Olmo Lete (eds.), Reconstructing a Distant Past. Ancient Near Eastern Essays in Tribute to Jorge R. Silva Castillo, Aula Orientalis-Supplementa 25, Sabadell – Barcelona 2009, 219-231.

From 1.6, of the paper:

Quote
All of the above allows us to assert that Hurrian is the second ethnic, linguistic and cultural component basic to the kingdom of Ugarit (Vita 1999: 456). The Hurrian texts found in Ras Shamra particularly show the importance of Hurrian religion and mythology in the cult of Ugarit. The Ugaritc pantheon includes, indeed, some deities which in all probability are Hurrian, such as Išḫara or Pidrayu, they also have their practical application in texts such as the Ugaritic ritual RS 24.260 (1.115) dedicated to Išḫara (ušḫr). The Hurrian pantheon itself is known in Ugarit thanks to canonical and ritual lists and, despite great difficulties in the proper understanding and interpretation of the texts, it is possible to attempt their reconstruction with the presence of deities such as Teššub, Kumarb/wi or Šawuška (Laroche 1968a: 518-527; 1968b; Mayer 1996; Dietrich – Mayer 1997; del Olmo 1999: 82-86).

Map, showing location of Ugarit (modern ~ Latakia Governorate, in NW Syria, bordering Turkey). Not from paper. The Latakia Governorate has an Alawite majority population:

http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/activity/mycenaean_Trace/media/MapUluBurun.gif
 (http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/activity/mycenaean_Trace/media/MapUluBurun.gif)
The Assyrian R1b modal is most similar to the Alawite R1b modal. Compare the ancestral homeland of the Alawites (orange), with the location of Ugarit:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/syrian-uprising-one-year-of-bloodshed/images/alawitemap.jpg (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/syrian-uprising-one-year-of-bloodshed/images/alawitemap.jpg)

N Mesopotamian (Assyrian and one Jewish man from Zakho)   
N=6   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   30
N=1   12   23   12   11   11   15   12   12   12   13   14   28
N=1   12   24   13   11   11   14   12   12   13   13   14   30
N=1   12   24   13   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   30
N=1   12   24   14   10   12   14   12   12   12   13   14   29
N=1   12   24   14   11   12   14   12   12   12   13   13   29
N=1   12   24   14   10   12   15   12   12   12   12   13   26
N=1   12   24   15   11   11   14   12   12   12   12   14   27
N=1   12   25   14   11   11   13   12   12   12   12   14   28
N=1   12   25   14   10   11   13   12   12   12   13   14   29
N=1   12   26   14   11   11   14   12   12   13   13   14   29
N=1   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   11   14   13   30
N=1   13   24   14   11   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   30

Alawite   
n=12   13   24   14   11   11   15   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=5   13   24   14   11   11   15   xx   xx   xx   13   13   29
n=3   12   25   14   11   11   14   xx   xx   xx   13   13   29
n=2   12   24   14   12   11   14   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=2   13   24   14   11   11   15   xx   xx   xx   12   13   28
n=1   12   23   14   10   11   14   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=1   12   24   14   10   10   14   xx   xx   xx   12   13   29
n=1   12   24   14   10   11   14   xx   xx   xx   13   13   29
n=1   12   24   14   11   11   14   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=1   12   24   14   12   11   14   xx   xx   xx   13   13   29
n=1   12   25   14   12   11   14   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=1   13   24   14   10   11   15   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=1   13   24   14   11   11   15   xx   xx   xx   15   13   31
n=1   13   24   14   11   10   15   xx   xx   xx   15   13   31
n=1   13   24   16   10   11   14   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30

Interesting OT tidbit:

Wikipedia -
Quote
The Hurrian songs are a collection of music inscribed in cuneiform on clay tablets excavated from the Hurrian city of Ugarit which date to approximately 1400 BC. One of these tablets, which is nearly complete, contains the Hurrian hymn to Nikkal (also known as the Hurrian cult hymn or A Zaluzi to the Gods, or simply h.6), making it the oldest surviving substantially complete work of notated music in the world. While the composers' names of some of the fragmentary pieces are known, h.6 is an anonymous work.

Hurrian Hymn played on a lyre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viMbnj_Ei2A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viMbnj_Ei2A)

"Michael Levy gives an interpretative rendition of the oldest known recorded hymn, a Hurrian melody."

The general area had been a stronghold of the Hittites (see below).  And also Luwian, Phoenician, and Aramaic-speaking Neo-Hittites in the 1st millennium BCE.

Wikipedia:
Quote
Teshub was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun, although this name is from the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer.

Aleppo [Halap] had cultic importance to the Hittites for being the center of worship of the Storm-God.

When the Hittite kingdom collapsed in the 12th century BC, Aleppo became part of the Aramaean Syro-Hittite kingdom of Arpad (Bit Agusi), and later it became capital of the Aramaean Syro-Hittite kingdom of Hatarikka-Luhuti.

In the 9th century BC, Aleppo was conquered by the Assyrians and became part of the Neo-Assyrian Empire until the late 7th century BC, before passing through the hands of the Neo-Babylonians and the Achamenid Persians.


"His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun, although this name is from the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer."  Compare with "Thor."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beyond Aššur: New Cities and the Assyrian Politics of Landscape

by Ömür Harmansah (2012)
Joukowsky Institute for Archaeology and the Ancient World
Brown University

Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research 365: 53-77.

Quote
Tarbisu is usually identified with the modern site of Sherif Khan, northwest of Nineveh, and Kaḫat with Tell Barrī. The famous temple of the Hurrian weather god Tešhub at Kaḫat (Tell Barrī) was restored by Šalmaneser I (Pecorella 1990: 55).

NW of Nineveh, in N Iraq, is extremely close to the center point of Dr. McDonald's average (green) spots for Assyrians.  

Again, there is much more to be said on this topic, based on recent scholarship.  


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 11, 2012, 01:07:15 AM
A Sealed Double Cremation at Middle Assyrian Tell Sabi Abyad, Syria

Peter Akkermans & E. Smits (2008)

In: D. Bonatz, R.M. Czichon & F.J. Kreppner (eds.) Fundstellen – Gesammelte Schriften zur Archäologie und Geschichte Altvorderasiens ad honorem Hartmut Kühne. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag (2008), pp. 251-261.

Quote
Recent excavation at Tell Sabi Abyad in Syria has exposed a very substantial part of a Middle Assyrian fortified farmstead or dunnu, dated ca. 1225-1120 BCE. From its foundation early in the reign of Tukulti-Ninurta I, the dunnu was maintained by a number of high-ranking officials affiliated with the Assyrian royal house and each bearing the titles of “grand vizier” and “king of Ḫanigalbat”: successively, Aššur-iddin, Šulmānu-mušabši and Ilī-padâ.

An extraordinarily rich cremation which dates somewhere between 1180-1140 BCE (building level 4) and which must be associated with the local administration at the site. So far, 38 graves have been uncovered in the dunnu at Tell Sabi Abyad, of which 29 were inhumations and nine were cremations.

The cylinder-seal impression* on the obverse of the sealing shows a galloping, winged horse followed by a foal (fig. 1), produced in the typical Middle Assyrian iconographic style of the 12th century BCE (see e.g. Matthews 1990, 1992).

Special attention is drawn to the presence of the (burnt) third phalange of a lion, which points to the inclusion of a lion-skin cloak on the funeral pyre. The dead may either have rested upon the skin or it may have covered them as a shroud. This find recalls the occurrence of bear claws in Neolithic cremation graves in northwestern Europe (see e.g. Parker Pearson 1999: 7; Smits 2000).

The richness of finds in this grave is remarkable, when taking into account that almost all other cremations at Tell Sabi Abyad contained either simply a small number of beads or no goods at all (there is only one other cremation with a comparable inventory; cf. Akkermans/Wiggermann, in print). Before it was stated that this cremation contained the burnt remains of two young adults – a man and a woman. Both persons must have died at more or less the same time and both were subsequently cremated and buried together. In view of their sex and age, it is tempting to consider them as spouses, tied to each other both in the terrestrial world and in the hereafter. Although the dead remain unknown to us, they undeniably must have been people of status and wealth. Moreover, the clay sealing with its typical Middle Assyrian representation suggests that they (or their mourners who carried out the burial) were affiliated with the Assyrian administration at Tell Sabi Abyad. Further proof in this respect is provided by the location of the grave in the immediate vicinity of the buildings of the living – it is unlikely that any outsiders to the local community were allowed to bury their dead here. The burial vessel, too, is entirely of Middle Assyrian style and origin in terms of shape and finish, as is the jewellery found in it (see e.g. Ohuma/Numoto 2001). In short, there can be no doubt that both the dead and their mourners were part of the local community at Tell Sabi Abyad, the more so if we take into account the sheer magnitude and obvious visibility of the practice of cremation: The burning and burial were not individual acts but involved the entire community. Somewhere on the site there must have been a large funeral pyre, on which the deceased were placed together, fully dressed and equipped with adornments and covered by a lion-skin cloak. A ram was slaughtered for the occasion and its meat was consumed by the mourners either shortly before or during the fire; the remains were thrown into the flames. After the corpses had been burnt, the remains selected for burial from the surface of the extinguished pyre were stored in an urn which was subsequently covered and sealed and finally buried in a specific area very close to the houses of the living.

* "Fig. 1...[R]econstruction of the seal impression."

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/R-L584/middle_assyrian_cremation_seal_reconstruction.jpg (http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/R-L584/middle_assyrian_cremation_seal_reconstruction.jpg)

The location:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/R-L584/figure1big.jpg (http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/R-L584/figure1big.jpg)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fortress of Ili-pada.
Middle Assyrian architecture at Tell Sabi Abyad, Syria
Peter M.M.G. Akkermans (2006)

In: P. Butterlin, M. Lebeau, J.-Y. Monchambert, J. Montero & B. Muller (eds.), Les espaces Syro-Mésopotamiens. Dimensions de l’expérience humaine au Proche-Orient ancien. Turnhout: Brepols (2006), pp. 201-211.

Quote
The fortress had many faces...: it was a military outpost on the western frontier of Assyria; it was an administrative center in control of the westernmost province of the kingdom; and it provided custom facilities on the route from Carchemish to the Assyrian capital of Assur.

However, it was not only the interests of the Assyrian state but also the private interests of the Assyrian officials themselves that were served at Sabi Abyad. For much of its lifetime, the fortress was in the hands of Ili-pada*, grand vizier of Assyria, viceroy of Hanigalbat, member of one of the most prominent lineages of Assyria, and related to the royal family. The stronghold was Ili-pada's rural estate, used by him for the agricultural exploitation of many dozens of square kilometres in the Balikh valley and elsewhere. The occurrence of texts belonging to Assur-iddin, Ili-pada's father and likewise grand vizier, suggests that the estate had been family property for a long time; it may have served as the family's power base in the province, which presented them with the revenues to finance their private court in the capital and to support their political ambitions.

*

Wikipedia :

Quote
Two of his [Ili-pada] sons were to follow him in attaining high office. Mardukija became governor of Katmuḫi and served his term as limmu early, during the reign of Aššur-dan I, his nephew and Ilī-padâ’s grandson. Ninurta-apal-Ekur, after a period stationed in Babylonia, presumably on official business, was to triumph in his campaign to succeed Enlil-kudurri-usur as Assyrian King, thereby establishing a royal line that endured until at least the eighth century.

The Assyrian King's list, beginning with Ili-pada's son, mentioned above:

Ninurta-apal-Ekur (1182 BCE to 1180 BCE) --> Ashur-dan I --> Ninurta-tukultī-Aššur --> Mutakkil-Nusku --> Ashur-resh-ishi I --> Tiglath-Pileser I --> Asharid-apal-Ekur --> Assur-bel-kala --> Eriba-Adad II --> Shamshi-Adad IV --> Ashurnasirpal I --> Shalmaneser II --> Ashur-nirari IV --> Ashur-rabi II --> Ashur-resh-ishi II --> Tiglath-Pileser II --> Ashur-dan II --> Adad-nirari II --> Tukulti-Ninurta II --> Ashurnasirpal II --> Shalmaneser III --> Shamshi-Adad V --> Adad-nirari III --> Shalmaneser IV --> Ashur-dan III --> Ashur-nirari V (755 BCE to 745 BCE). The line is broken by Tiglath-Pileser III.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Archaeology of Death and Burial (1999)
by Mike Parker Pearson

page 7

I do not know why the author in the Assyrian Cremations article is referring to the European bear claws as Neolithic. Unless it is the "Smits" source one must refer to.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/R-L584/pearson_cremation.jpg (http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/R-L584/pearson_cremation.jpg)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps of no connection:

Wikipedia on Hercules:

Quote
To kill the Nemean lion
The Nemean lion was a large ferocious monster with a hide that could not be pierced by any weapon.[5] This made it near impossible to kill, but Hercules managed to strangle the monster with his bare hands, using his unusual strength. After he had strangled the lion, he used one of its claws to skin the monster and he wore the hide, which retained its magical properties, until his death.


Please Note: Mentioning similarities does not necessarily equate to an east to west transmission.  


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 11, 2012, 01:48:04 AM
More ( royal ? ) Assyrian cremation sites:

Archaeologists from Mainz University uncover ancient governor's palace in Turkey

International excavation project discovers hitherto undisturbed cremation sites


21.10.2008

Quote
Within the scope of an international rescue excavation project, a team of four archaeologists specialized in Middle Eastern affairs headed by Dr. Dirk Wicke (Institute of Egyptology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies) have unearthed parts of a Neo-Assyrian governor's palace dating back to the 9th to 7th cent. B.C. in a two-month excavation program amongst the ruins on Ziyaret Tepe. The discoveries were extraordinary. The site in the south-east of Turkey (Diyarbakir province) is at risk from the construction of the Ilisu Dam.

But the most unusual discovery was the excavation of cremations in pits within the extensive courtyard area. Five installations have been found to date, two of which were undisturbed and contained opulent burial goods. In the rectangular graves of approximately 1.50 m x 2.00 m in size, for example, a considerable layer of ash and burned bones as well as numerous bronze vessels, sumptuous stone and ivory receptacles, carved ivory objects, seals, and beads were found. These items indicate the high status of the people buried here. They are believed to have been residents of the palace. These objects are very similar to those found in the Assyrian capitals of Assur and Kalhu/Nimrud in modern day Iraq.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 11, 2012, 03:06:44 AM
A 2,900-year-old gravestone from the ancient kingdom of Sam'al, located in what is today southeastern Turkey, has shed light on an ancient religious belief heretofore unknown.

Quote
Though the city of Sam'al was influenced by local Semitic cultures in many ways - including their language - Kuttamuwa and Panamuwa are names that show the Indo-European cultural influence. Also, Kuttamuwa was cremated, a practice shunned by Semitic tribes of that era. Apparently Kuttamuwa had his stele made while he was still alive, and last summer the archeological team found it, translating its inscription like this (there are question marks for translations they aren't sure of yet):

"I, Kuttamuwa, servant of Panamuwa, am the one who oversaw the production of this stele for myself while still living. I placed it in an eternal chamber(?) and established a feast at this chamber(?): a bull for [the storm-god] Hadad, ... a ram for [the sun-god] Shamash, ... and a ram for my soul that is in this stele."

Written in an alphabet derived from Phoenician, the language is a West Semitic dialect similar to Aramaic and Hebrew.

According to archeologist Schloen: "Kuttumuwa's inscription shows a fascinating mixture of non-Semitic and Semitic cultural elements, including a belief in the enduring human soul-which did not inhabit the bones of the deceased, as in traditional Semitic thought, but inhabited his stone monument, possibly because the remains of the deceased were cremated. Cremation was considered to be abhorrent in the Old Testament and in traditional West Semitic culture, but there is archaeological evidence for Indo-European-style cremation in neighboring Iron Age sites."


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Jean M on May 11, 2012, 04:34:11 AM
I mention the Kuttamuwa stele (with picture) on my page on megalithic monuments (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/megaliths.shtml).


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: palamede on May 11, 2012, 05:35:23 AM
Tell Nader Project / Tell Baqrta Project (2011)
Dr. Konstantinos Kopanias

Quote
As literacy dawns over the horizon of prehistory the first ethnic group whom we know to have inhabited the region [Arbil and its environs] are the Hurrians. This is not to say there were not other groups. There almost certainly were. Texts over these millennia relating to the eastern frontiers of Mesopotamia (for instance Ur III administrative documents and the Shemshara archives) contain a large number of personal names whose linguistic affiliation has not yet been established and it is, in my view, probable that parent languages will one be day be recognised and reconstructed for at least some of them. Be that as it may, the Hurrians are the earliest definable group for whose presence in the region we currently have evidence; followed closely by the Sumerians.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cambridge Prof. Geoffrey Khan. "The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Barwar [N Iraq]" (2008)

Quote
As already shown by Krotkoff (1985: 124–126), a number of lexical items in the NENA [Northeastern Neo-Aramaic] dialects, especially those relating to agriculture, can be traced back beyond Classical Aramaic to Akkadian or even Sumerian.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colours in Late Bronze Mesopotamia. Some Hints on Wall Paintings from Dur Kurigalzu [Kassite], Nuzi [Mitanni] and Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta [Middle Assyrian]

by Sara Pizzimenti

in: R. Matthews et al. (eds), Proceedings of the 7th ICAANE, 12-16 April 2010, the British Museum and UCL, London, Vol. 2, Wiesbaden 2012: 303-318.

Quote
Conclusions

A visual coherence given by an iconographic, chromatic and iconological equilibrium and symmetry is present both in the ornamental wall paintings at Nuzi and Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta. Iconographically the scene is composed following a principle of balance and symmetry. This balance has also a chromatic correspondence in a black/white and red/blue opposition, and an iconological correspondence in the male and female elements opposition, opposite de facto, with Adad and Ishtar in the Nuzi paintings and with the Ishtar’s double nature in those of Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta. Extremely different are the Dur Kurigalzu paintings, where there is not this principle of balance and opposition, but where the use of colour is no more ‘evocative’ but aims to imitate reality. Finally, it is possible to point out a conscious use of colour in all the Late Bronze Age wall paintings, according to the subject represented. A symbolic and ‘evocative’ use of colour seems to be preferred in ornamental wall paintings, while an imitation of reality is present in figurative ones.

The posts of Humanist are interesting but needs a serious knowledge of ancient Middle East to be understood at least a little.
A critic to introduce: the subject of the changes of palace styles in a topic  about population history and genetics is about the palaceS/ arts styles, they can be useful to know some population moves, but not sure, in the  empires,  it can be without relation with population moves, it is only the sign of a political and military change.In History and modern times, we can find a lot of population moves reverse of the sense of the empire expansions

When Humanist did the citation for  paintings about  Nuzi and Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta, it needs to know Nuzi is the old Kirkouk (or near Kirkouk) east of Tigre (limit of present Arabe/Kurdish separation line with the nowadays problems we can guess)  and was an important Hourrite/Mittani town while Tukulti-Ninurta was an Assyrian conquesting  king of 12th century and his palace in the old assyrian country between Assour and Ninive along the Tigre.

As the present Arab/Turkish, Turkisk/Kurdish and Arab/Kurdish lines have been mixed and fluctuated, The Hourrite/Semitic line in the  BC times was complex. Roughly from Ougarit in Med coast to Nuzi (Zagros borders) thru Alep, Karkemish (Euphrate river), Hani-Galbat (between Euphrate and Tiger with Singar Hills), Ninive/Mossoul country (Tigre river) and  then south of Arbeles and Nouzi/Kirkouk country. Regions with different dominant powers since Ourouk phase.
The Ourouk/Sumerian  town of Habirah about 3200/3000BC
The Semitic kingdoms of Ebla, Alep and Mari about 2700-2400BC
The Semitic-Akkadian empire of Sargon/Naramsin about 2400-2200BC
After Guti invasion and first Elamite raids, the Sumerian/Akkadian empire of Ur-3 ab out 2150-2000BC
A confuse time before Hammourabi (Akkadian-Babylone) between 2000 and 1750 with new Elamite raids, Semitic-Amorrites invasions  and their formations of small kingdoms (Isin, Mari, Babylone, Larsa, Eshnunna,  and first Assyrian kingdom).
First Babylonian empire founded by Hammourabifrom 1750 to 1600.
Kassite and Mittani (Both with IE  Indo-aryan kings but vague-defined populations, mostly Hourrites) migrations from Iran. Expansion from first Hittite empire from 1600 to 1500 with Hattusil and Mursil I killed by his son-in-law right after Mursil capture of Babylone (1500av JC)
From 1500, establishment of Mittani kingdom in Hanni-Galbat and Kassite kingdom at Babylone with expanding and shriking empires until 1300 for Mittani and 1150 for Kassite with continuous  struggles against  Hittites, Assyrians and Elamites plus against Egyptians for Mittani and first Semite-Chaldeans at the end of the Kassite kingdom.

From 1400 to 1200, new Hittite empire and from 1300 to 1100 Assyrian expansion.  Small semite kingdoms in Syria/Palestine, Amorrites and Cananeans tributaries of Hittites and Egyptians.
1220-1100 invasions of Sea peoples in Med, of Phygians/Armenians,  Mosches (Muski) and   Bithynian/Mysian Thraces in Anatolia from Europe, Arameans in Syria and Irak from desert borders, first Irano-aryans in Iran from North-East. Destruction of Hittite, Assyrian, Kassite and Egyptian empires, Ougarit and a lot of other towns. First presence of nomads/mercenaries the Habirus (ancestors of Hebraic tribes?)
1100-800 a lot of small kingdoms Moab, Ammon, Philistins, Juda, Israel, Phenician cities,  Aramean kingdoms in South Syrian, Neo-Hittites (in fact Semites/Hourrites) kingdoms in North Syrian and South-East Anatolia.
900-600 Last Assyrian empire and progressive conquests or putting tributaries of the small kingdoms and independant towns. Forced population moves probably exagerated by Bible and texts of Assyrian kings. everly struggles againt Ourarteans, Medes, Arabs and Elamites.
Progression of IE tribes in Anatolia (Armenians, Phrygians, Lydians) and Iran (Medes, Perses, other Iiranian tribes,  Cardurci (initial core of Kurds?) ? Kissians (Kassites?))
600-550 Neo-Babylonian and Median empires
550-330 Persian empire
300-130 Seleucid empire
130-64 Syrian seleucid kingdom, growth of Roman and Parthian empires.
From 63BC to 640AD disputed border of Roman and Parthian/Perse Sassanids empires.
From 640 to 1000 Damas Omedyad, then Bagdad Abbasid empires.
900-1250 Fragmentation of Abbasid power, turkish invasions : turkish, kurdisk, armenian, georgian, crossed, ismaelite kingdmoms,
1200-1320 Mongol power in Iran and Irak. Mamelouks in Levant, Ottoman in Anatolia,
Byzantine empire shrank until the end in 1453.
1320 Tamerlan/Timour Lenk
1350 to 1918 Ottoman empire. sometimes in concurrence with Iranian Sefevid kingdom.    

In a very rough image, population and languages were the subject of 5 forces
1) An indigenous centrale force derived from Ourouk phases which Sumerians heritate.

2) A southern force from the desert borders represented by semitic-speaking tribes with dominating SW  J1 hg (to distinsguish of the caucasic J1 hg).

3) North West force coming from Anatolia and farther fromBalkans

4) North-East forces coming from Caucasus and borders represented by Hourrites, Ourarteans mainly, later  Scythians.

5) East forces coming from Iran. First before IE with Goutis, Lullubis, Elamites, ... then by Indo-Aryans (Mittanis, Kassites ?, ...), last by Irano-aryans (Medes, Perses, Parthes, ...)

It remains to define the change of hg frequencies according to the fluctuaction of these 5 force axes.

Good luck.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 11, 2012, 06:35:49 AM
I mention the Kuttamuwa stele (with picture) on my page on megalithic monuments (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/megaliths.shtml).

Thanks, Jean.  I am familiar with your site.  But I missed that one.  Thanks for the link. 


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 13, 2012, 07:35:22 PM
I have been reading up a bit of copper and early bronze age Asia Minor and it seems it did not reach a stage of strong long distance trading and interaction and a uniformising of the culture until Ealry Bronze Age II which only commenced c. 2600BC.  Before then it was a fragmented, regionalised picture.  I think this would seem to decrease the option of Asia Minor as a likely immediate source for the spread of R1b west.  Yes it does have a pretty old looking L23 population but the archaeological picture (at least accordng to the new book by During 'The Prehistory of Asia Minor' does not make it seem a likely source of copper age or local early bronze age movements west.  It would tend to make me think that another subset of L23 is responsible for L51 and L11. 


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 22, 2012, 11:10:11 AM
I forgot to add here that the Assyrian, Al-Jeloo (#205749), is L943+.  This is one of the four SNPs that #45475, of Ashkenazi "Group C" is derived for. 


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on May 31, 2012, 03:35:52 PM
Something I posted at another forum:

Comparing the R-M269 modals of Druze, Alawites, and Assyrians.  Adding the modal for what appears to be the most frequent Iraqi Arab R-M269 haplotype (see the Iraqi DNA Project).  Standard FTDNA 1-12 and DYS464.  Please note that the Iraqi Arabs are ancestral for L584.

Code:
L584x POP 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389i 392 389ii 464a 464b 464c 464d
L584- IQA 12 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 14 15 17 17
L584+ ASY 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 15 15 17 17
L584? ALW 13 24 14 11 11 15 xx xx xx 14 13 30 xx xx xx xx
L584? DRZ 13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 ?? 13 13 29 xx xx xx xx

The “Super Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype” (SWAMH)
 
DYS464=15-15-17-17


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 31, 2012, 03:55:34 PM
Something I posted at another forum:

Comparing the R-M269 modals of Druze, Alawites, and Assyrians.  Adding the modal for what appears to be the most frequent Iraqi Arab R-M269 haplotype (see the Iraqi DNA Project).  Standard FTDNA 1-12 and DYS464.  Please note that the Iraqi Arabs are ancestral for L584.

Code:
L584x POP 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389i 392 389ii 464a 464b 464c 464d
L584- IQA 12 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 14 15 17 17
L584+ ASY 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 15 15 17 17
L584? ALW 13 24 14 11 11 15 xx xx xx 14 13 30 xx xx xx xx
L584? DRZ 13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 ?? 13 13 29 xx xx xx xx

The “Super Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype” (SWAMH)
 
DYS464=15-15-17-17

Interesting. Seems like there is a big contrast between Iranian R1b and Assyrian/Armenian/Druze/Alawaite etc R1b. Wonder why that is and what this says about the origins of R-M269 and population movements.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 31, 2012, 04:19:28 PM
Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans
Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17%

As I understand For Phokaia (Phocée in french, mother of Massilia/Marseille) and  , Smyrnia, 2 harbours of the old Ionia and Eolia in the west coast of Turkey, they sampled descendants Greeks originated of these towns. As you know the Greek population of Anatolia (3500years of presence) were forced to migrate to Greece, America and Australia, but it is possible the descendants of ancient moslem inhabitants of these towns are not very different genetically, they could be mostly old converted Greeks.
For the anectod, the french prime minister for 1995-1997 was from Marseille, his family came from Smyrnia and before was Armenians (Balladurian) of Nakhichevan.

For  NeoNikomedia in Macedonia, Sesklo/Dimini in Thesssalia, Lerna/Franchti in the East coast of Peloponnésia, south of Argos, they are villages with famous sites of mesolithitic and old neolithic.


Proportion of R1a in Near and Middle East according to Athey predictor (Handschar)
Druze(366) 1% Palestinian Christians(44) 2% Alaouites(104) 2% Assyrian (106) 2% Irak Jews (79) 0% Iran Jews (49) 4% Armenians (1147) 4% Niraq Jews (99) 4% Yezidis (196) 2% Maronites (196) 0%  Yemen Jews (74) 3%    

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 31, 2012, 04:31:25 PM
If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

Did they declassify Iranian from the IE family?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 31, 2012, 04:52:35 PM
If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

Did they declassify Iranian from the IE family?

Is this a serious response?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Richard Rocca on May 31, 2012, 05:10:35 PM
If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

Did they declassify Iranian from the IE family?

Is this a serious response?


No, not really (If you haven't noticed I'm a little bit of a character sometimes).

Seriously though, I'm getting where that seems such a long distance, especially when you consider how widespread R1b and R1a expanded.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 31, 2012, 05:23:47 PM
If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

Did they declassify Iranian from the IE family?

Is this a serious response?


No, not really (If you haven't noticed I'm a little bit of a character sometimes).

Seriously though, I'm getting where that seems such a long distance, especially when you consider how widespread R1b and R1a expanded.

My point was that an expansion from the Balkans with IE (or Galatians) for West Asian R1b doesn't make sense because it is found in Iranians (who might be IE speaking but its clear iranian expanded into iran from the steepe and Central Asia with R1a and J2a lineages picked up in Central Asia) as well as Assyrians who are not IE speaking and don't have any clades of I that would indicate a Balkan origin. I have no doubt some Armenian R1b lineages are from the Balkan. This fits in with their language as well as frequency of I (although one wonders about the R1b and I in Kurds).


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: palamede on May 31, 2012, 05:27:26 PM

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

I don't know R1b-L23* in Iran well, but it seems me they were mainly from Armenians and Assyrians/Nestorians migrated to Iran in the recent centuries, either to look for a political or  religious refugia, and/or for trade .

When you look at statistics in Iran and Central Asia for R1, it is difficult to say if it is R1b-M343*, R1b1-P25*, R1b1a-P297*, R1b1b-M335, R1b1c-V88, R1b1a1-P73, R1b1a2-M269*, R1b1a2a-L23.



Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on May 31, 2012, 08:35:31 PM

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

I don't know R1b-L23* in Iran well, but it seems me they were mainly from Armenians and Assyrians/Nestorians migrated to Iran in the recent centuries, either to look for a political or  religious refugia, and/or for trade .

When you look at statistics in Iran and Central Asia for R1, it is difficult to say if it is R1b-M343*, R1b1-P25*, R1b1a-P297*, R1b1b-M335, R1b1c-V88, R1b1a1-P73, R1b1a2-M269*, R1b1a2a-L23.



R1b reaches a frequency of >40% among some minorities in Northern Iran. Are you actually saying 40 % of male lineages in certain North Iranian communities who are known for their high degrees of endogamy are Armenian or Assyrian in origin? Nor does it explain why North Iranians (the entire north not just the northwest where armenians and assyrians are concentrated) and South Iranians do have R1b when Armenians and Assyrians are concentrated in NW Iran. Why would the Gilaki have R1b ? No Armenians and Assyrians there. And once again doesn't explain how Assyrians would have gotten R1b without I . I get that you want to make L23 European but that all Iranian R1b derives from Assyrians and Armenians has very little to support it.

Doesn't explain the M269 in Balochis and Tajiks either. Their admixture with Iranian plataeau populations is more than a few centuries old and there are certainly no Assyrians or Armenians in SE Iran, SW Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where these two groups live.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: palamede on June 01, 2012, 03:18:46 AM
R1b reaches a frequency of >40% among some minorities in Northern Iran. Are you actually saying 40 % of male lineages in certain North Iranian communities who are known for their high degrees of endogamy are Armenian or Assyrian in origin? Nor does it explain why North Iranians (the entire north not just the northwest where armenians and assyrians are concentrated) and South Iranians do have R1b when Armenians and Assyrians are concentrated in NW Iran. Why would the Gilaki have R1b ? No Armenians and Assyrians there. And once again doesn't explain how Assyrians would have gotten R1b without I . I get that you want to make L23 European but that all Iranian R1b derives from Assyrians and Armenians has very little to support it.

Doesn't explain the M269 in Balochis and Tajiks either. Their admixture with Iranian plataeau populations is more than a few centuries old and there are certainly no Assyrians or Armenians in SE Iran, SW Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where these two groups live.
Interesting map of langages in Iran
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8673/inuseiran.jpg

I found statistics for R1a, R1b and I given by  Humanist/Handschar in
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=25913
Pop   N   R1a   Language      Source
Druze   366   1%   Semitic   Arabic   Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri   44   2%   Semitic   Arabic   Fernandes at al.*
Alawi   104   2%   Semitic   Arabic   Donbak et al.*
Assyr   106   2%   Semitic   Aramaic   Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ   79   0%   Semitic   Hebrew   Behar et al.
IranJ   49   4%   Semitic   Hebrew   Behar et al.
Armeni   1147   4%   Indo-European   Armenian   Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews   99   4%   Semitic   Hebrew/Aramaic   Nebel et al.
Yezidi   196   2%   Indo-Iranian(IE)   Kurmanji   Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit   196   0%   Semitic   Arabic/Aramaic   Haber et al.
YemenJ   74   3%   Semitic   Hebrew/Arabic   Behar et al.
Bakht   46   15%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Luri   Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh   18   6%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Talysh   Roewer et al.
Gilak   43   14%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Gilaki   Roewer et al.
Mazan   46   7%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Mazandarani   Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh   43   0%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Talysh   Roewer et al.
Tats   20   0%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Tati   Bertoncini et al.
------------------------
Pop    N    R1b    Language        Source
Druze__    643    17%    Semitic    Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris    44    2%    Semitic    Arabic    Fernandes et al.
Alawi    104    33%    Semitic    Arabic    Donbak et al.
Assyr    79    24%    Semitic    Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
IraqJ    79    4%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
IranJ    49    2%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
Armen    413    29%    Indo-European    Armenian    Hererra et al.
NiqJ    99    13%    Semitic    Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
GrkOrt    59    14%    Semitic    Arabic    Haber et al.
Maron    196    8%    Semitic    Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
YemeJ    74    5%    Semitic    Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
Bakht    46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak    43    23%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan    46    15%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh    43    19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
----------------------
Balanovsky et al. Y-DNA I

Avar    2
Kubachi    2
Chechen   (Chechnya)   1
Circassians    0.7
Ingush   (Ingushetia)   0.7
Shapsug    0
Abkhaz    0
Ossets-Iron    0
Ossets-Digor    0
Chechen   (Ingushetia)   0
Chechen   (Dagestan)   0
Dargins    0
Kaitak    0
Lezghins    0

Herrera et al. Y-DNA I for 4 Armenian populations
Gardman 8.3
Ararat 2.7
Van 1.9
Sasun 0

Iranian data from Roewer et al. (DMXX from DNA-Forums)
Bakhtiari    8.7
North Talysh   4.7
Mazandarani   4.4
Gilaki 2.3
South Talysh   0
----------------------------------
Four your frequency > 40%, I suppose you refer this figure for 18 South Talish in Iranian South Coast of Caspian Sea .
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people, higher than I in the same people. If South-East   Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b, but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the  samples of descendants of  Greeks of West  coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).
Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".
In Mesolithics, I think R1b-L23xL51 was a great majority of population in Greece and South Balkans before the arrival of G2a, J2 and E1b1b1 in the last Mesolithic/.Early Neolithic. I2 were more concentrated in Centre-East Europe north of Danube-Bosna line.

Since LGM (25,000-19,000BP) which gived a great  advantage of one (maximum 2) haplogroup by region due to very hard life conditions and very weak population density by genetic drift and founding effect at the end of LGM and end of last cold peaks for sub-groups, then since the end of Younger Dryas (12,000BP), there have been a continous mixing. Genetic drifts and founding effects could take place in very localized and weak populations, I don't accept a lot of bottlenecks found by population geneticians for Middle and Modern ages  at all . In Europe, the last great founding effect was the entry of hg I1 in empty Scandinavia.  I am convinced that archeologia and physical anthropology show a relative stability of population in Europe and large parts of Asia and Africa, except progressive mixings more and more accelerated thru the modern times until present.

For R1b along the Caspian Sea shores,from Daghestan with high frequencies for Bagvadals, Tabarassans and some frequencies for Kumiks and Lezgians, to the old Hyrcania with Talishes, Gilakis and Mazanderis, it would be necessary to know better the ethnical  formation  of Albania (and Atropatene) during the Greco-Roman times in the present Azerbaidjan.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28354&PN=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aghuank.jpg

About R1b in Central Asia and South Asia, I have no idea about the frequency of R1b-L23xL51. If existing, it could be partially explained by the Greek presence in Bactriane and arounding regions during three centuries (From 325 BC (Alexander) to 15AD the end of the last indo-greek kingdom in Pendjab).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks (nice map)

Tadjiks are descendants of old inhabitants of Bactriane and Sogdiane.
Balouches  are said to come from the Caspian shores and "Balochi is closely related to other Northwestern Iranian languages such as Kurdish".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom  (nice maps)

It is difficult to know the proportion of Greek "blood" in the nobles of these kingdoms and the following Kuchan and Sakas kingdoms, probably decreasing with the time.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 01, 2012, 06:31:07 AM

Interesting map of langages in Iran
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8673/inuseiran.jpg

I found statistics for R1a, R1b and I given by  Humanist/Handschar in
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=25913


Pop      N     R1a  Language            Source
Druze___ 366   1%   Semitic Arabic       Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri__ 44   2%   Semitic Arabic       Fernandes at al.*
Alawi___ 104   2%   Semitic Arabic       Donbak et al.*
Assyr___ 106   2%   Semitic Aramaic     Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ___ 79    0%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    4%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
Armeni__ 1147  4%   Indo-European Armenian     Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews_ 99    4%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic     Nebel et al.
Yezidi__ 196   2%   Indo-Iranian(IE) Kurmanji     Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit_ 196   0%   Semitic Arabic/Aramaic     Haber et al.
YemenJ__ 74    3%   Semitic Hebrew/Arabic     Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    15%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri     Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    6%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh      Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    14%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki      Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    7%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani     Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh     Roewer et al.
Tats____ 20    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Tati     Bertoncini et al.

------------------------

Pop      N     R1b  Language            Source
Druze___ 643   17%   Semitic Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris_ 44    2%    Semitic Arabic    Fernandes et al.
Alawi___ 104   33%   Semitic Arabic    Donbak et al.
Assyr___ 79    24%   Semitic Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
IraqJ___ 79    4%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    2%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
Armen___ 413   29%   Indo-European Armenian    Hererra et al.
NiqJ____ 99    13%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
GrkOrt__ 59    14%   Semitic Arabic    Haber et al.
Maron___ 196   8%    Semitic Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
YemeJ___ 74    5%    Semitic Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    44%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    23%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    15%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43    19%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

----------------------


Balanovsky et al. Y-DNA I

Avar    2
Kubachi    2
Chechen   (Chechnya)   1
Circassians    0.7
Ingush   (Ingushetia)   0.7
Shapsug    0
Abkhaz    0
Ossets-Iron    0
Ossets-Digor    0
Chechen   (Ingushetia)   0
Chechen   (Dagestan)   0
Dargins    0
Kaitak    0
Lezghins    0

Herrera et al. Y-DNA I for 4 Armenian populations
Gardman 8.3
Ararat 2.7
Van 1.9
Sasun 0

Iranian data from Roewer et al. (DMXX from DNA-Forums)
Bakhtiari    8.7
North Talysh   4.7
Mazandarani   4.4
Gilaki 2.3
South Talysh   0
----------------------------------
Four your frequency > 40%, I suppose you refer this figure for 18 South Talish in Iranian South Coast of Caspian Sea .
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people,higher than I in the same people. If South-East   Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b , but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the  samples of descendants of  Greeks of West  coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).
Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".....

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right?  Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe.  If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 01, 2012, 09:00:41 AM
This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right?  Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe.  If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Just thinking out loud here...

The western Balkans seem to have many times more I2 than the east. If the R1b migration to Iran and Caucasia came from the Eastern Balkans, perhaps there was no I2 to be picked up along the way?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 01, 2012, 10:53:26 AM

Interesting map of langages in Iran
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8673/inuseiran.jpg

I found statistics for R1a, R1b and I given by  Humanist/Handschar in
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=25913


Pop      N     R1a  Language            Source
Druze___ 366   1%   Semitic Arabic       Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri__ 44   2%   Semitic Arabic       Fernandes at al.*
Alawi___ 104   2%   Semitic Arabic       Donbak et al.*
Assyr___ 106   2%   Semitic Aramaic     Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ___ 79    0%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    4%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
Armeni__ 1147  4%   Indo-European Armenian     Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews_ 99    4%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic     Nebel et al.
Yezidi__ 196   2%   Indo-Iranian(IE) Kurmanji     Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit_ 196   0%   Semitic Arabic/Aramaic     Haber et al.
YemenJ__ 74    3%   Semitic Hebrew/Arabic     Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    15%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri     Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    6%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh      Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    14%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki      Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    7%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani     Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh     Roewer et al.
Tats____ 20    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Tati     Bertoncini et al.

------------------------

Pop      N     R1b  Language            Source
Druze___ 643   17%   Semitic Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris_ 44    2%    Semitic Arabic    Fernandes et al.
Alawi___ 104   33%   Semitic Arabic    Donbak et al.
Assyr___ 79    24%   Semitic Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
IraqJ___ 79    4%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    2%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
Armen___ 413   29%   Indo-European Armenian    Hererra et al.
NiqJ____ 99    13%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
GrkOrt__ 59    14%   Semitic Arabic    Haber et al.
Maron___ 196   8%    Semitic Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
YemeJ___ 74    5%    Semitic Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    44%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    23%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    15%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43   19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

----------------------


Balanovsky et al. Y-DNA I

Avar    2
Kubachi    2
Chechen   (Chechnya)   1
Circassians    0.7
Ingush   (Ingushetia)   0.7
Shapsug    0
Abkhaz    0
Ossets-Iron    0
Ossets-Digor    0
Chechen   (Ingushetia)   0
Chechen   (Dagestan)   0
Dargins    0
Kaitak    0
Lezghins    0

Herrera et al. Y-DNA I for 4 Armenian populations
Gardman 8.3
Ararat 2.7
Van 1.9
Sasun 0

Iranian data from Roewer et al. (DMXX from DNA-Forums)
Bakhtiari    8.7
North Talysh   4.7
Mazandarani   4.4
Gilaki 2.3
South Talysh   0
----------------------------------
Four your frequency > 40%, I suppose you refer this figure for 18 South Talish in Iranian South Coast of Caspian Sea .
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people,higher than I in the same people. If South-East   Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b , but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the  samples of descendants of  Greeks of West  coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).
Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".....

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right?  Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe.  If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

I think this is another bit of evidence that R1b was more easterly and northerly that the Balkans or Anatolia.  Add to the fact that R1b's structure is suggestive of a lack of farming style demographic expansion the Balkans and Anatolia again do not really fit as they were early farming areas (very early in Anatolia).  I think its all begining to point to R1b being immediate westerly neighbours of R1a on the steppes.  That is the vvery area that might have been squeezed between Cucuteni-Trypole (non-R1b) farmers pushing in from the west and the other steppes peoples (R1a?) to the east.  Maybe R1b was a Bug-Dneister haplogroup.  The west end of the steppes has a terribly complex later  history.  Regardless of the specifcs it does look to me from the Iranian aspect that R1b was a factor in the steppes.  It probably clealry wasnt as simple as R1b being the western steppes groups and R1a the eastern steppes given the R1a in corded ware and R1b very closeby at the same time in eastern Germany but some sort of pattern with more R1b in the west and R1a in the east and a mixed area would make a lot of sense.

I think if the variance dating of R1b phlogeny is accepted (which I admit I was a dounting Thomas about for a long time) then R1b was not in the farming zone in Europe (or perhaps only marginally so when a few lineages strayed into the zone) until 3000BC.  I think if the variance dating of the phylogeny of R1b is true then there is absolutely no chance that it originated in Mesopotamia, Anatolia or in the Balkans Neolithic.  The evidenced is piling up (and I admit its surprised me) but no point in denying that it suggests R1b's roots were in an area outside the early farming zone and indeed until very late.   The steppes are looking very very likely now when all the new evidence is weighed up.  If their first intrusions from the steppes were into the Caucuses, western Anatolia, Romania etc as hinted at by variance then


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 01, 2012, 01:04:26 PM
I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Not the historical period, but if we go back 4000+ years, it is a different story. Speaking for N Mesopotamians only.  

Edit.  Apologies.  If you are referring to as far back as 2000 BCE and earlier, then yes.  


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 01, 2012, 02:14:45 PM
I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Not the historical period, but if we go back 4000+ years, it is a different story. Speaking for N Mesopotamians only.  

Edit.  Apologies.  If you are referring to as far back as 2000 BCE and earlier, then yes.  

What I'm getting at is to answer the question, would the the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrian R1b folks probably have spoken Semitic languages in the Bronze Are or something else? 

Is it known these people adopted Semitic languages or are a mixture of people inluding those that did not speak Semitic languages?

I know the Hurrians and Hattians of the Bronze Age have been discussed. Is it just is likely the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrians were speaking one of those languages versus some Semitic languages?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: palamede on June 01, 2012, 03:42:52 PM
For R1b along the Caspian Sea shores,from Dagestan with high frequency for Bagvadals, Tabarassans and some frequency for Kumiks and Lezgians, to the old Hyrcania with Talishes, Gilakis and Mazanderis, it would be necessary to know better the ethnical  formation  of Albania (and Atropatene) during the Greco-Roman times in the present Azerbaidjan.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28354&PN=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aghuank.jpg
Today, I found these 2 maps . I noticed some names.
In the first map,
Albania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania They spoke a language of caucasian family, it was written .
"Originally, the Caucasian Albanians apparently spoke Lezgic languages close to those found in modern Daghestan. After the Caucasian Albanians were Christianized in the 4th century, the western parts of the population were gradually assimilated by the ancestors of modern Armenians, and the eastern parts of Caucasian Albania were Islamized and absorbed by Iranian and subsequently Turkic peoples(modern Azerbaijanis). Small remnants of this group continue to exist independently, and are known as the Udi people.
The pre-Islamic population of Caucasian Albania might have played a role in the ethnogenesis of a number of modern ethnicities, including the Azerbaijanis, the Armenians of the Nagorno-Karabakh, the Georgians of Kakhetia, the Laks, the Lezgins and the Tsakhurs of Daghestan"
Iberia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia
"The area was inhabited in earliest times by several relative tribes of Tibareni, Mushki, Saspers, Gugars, Diaokhi, etc., collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient Greek (Herodotus, Strabo, etc.) and Roman authors."
"The Mushki (Muški; Georgian: მესხები Meshebi, მუშქები Mushkebi, Meskhetians, Moschia) were an Iron Age people of Anatolia, known from Assyrian sources. They do not appear in Hittite records.[1] Several authors have connected them with the Moschoi (Μόσχοι) of Greek sources and the Georgian tribe of the Meskhi. Josephus Flavius identified the Moschoi with the Biblical Meshech. Two different groups are called Muški in the Assyrian sources (Diakonoff 1984:115), one from the 12th to 9th centuries, located near the confluence of the Arsanias and the Euphrates ("Eastern Mushki"), and the other in the 8th to 7th centuries, located in Cappadocia and Cilicia ("Western Mushki"). Assyrian sources identify the Western Mushki with the Phrygians, while Greek sources clearly distinguish between Phrygians and Moschoi.
Identification of the Eastern with the Western Mushki is uncertain, but it is of course possible to assume a migration of at least part of the Eastern Mushki to Cilicia in the course of the 10th to 8th centuries, and this possibility has been repeatedly suggested, variously identifying the Mushki as speakers of a Georgian, Armenian or Anatolian idiom. The Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture notes that "the Armenians according to Diakonoff, are then an amalgam of the Hurrian (and Urartians), Luvians and the Proto-Armenian Mushki (or Armeno-Phrygians) who carried their IE language eastwards across Anatolia."[2]
The Eastern Muski appear to have moved into Hatti in the 12th century, completing the downfall of the collapsing Hittite state, along with various Sea Peoples. They established themselves in a post-Hittite kingdom in Cappadocia.
Whether they moved into the core Hittite areas from the east or west has been a matter of some discussion by historians. Some speculate that they may have originally occupied a territory in the area of Urartu; alternatively, ancient accounts suggest that they first arrived from a homeland in the west (as part of the Armeno-Phrygian migration), from the region of Troy, or even from as far as Macedonia, as the Bryges.
Together with the Hurrians and Kaskas, they invaded the Assyrian provinces of Alzi and Puruhuzzi in about 1160, but they were pushed back and defeated, along with the Kaskas, by Tiglath-Pileser I in 1115 BC, who until 1110 advanced as far as Milid."

Muski could be an important  bearer of balkanic R1b-L23xL51 to Armenia and Assyrian areas about 1100BC.

Kaskas, originally south cost of Black Sea (probably Caucasian language) east of Halys mouth, were an everly problem for the Hittite Empire. On Iberia map, we see the province of Gogharena. "Gog and Magog" in the Bible.

Atropatene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropatene
Massagetlor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetes Lived originally around Syr Daria in South Kazakhstan and North Uzbekistan where they had killed the great conquestor Cyrus the Great, founder of Persian Empire.l
"Ammianus Marcellinus considered the Alans to be the former Massagetae.[11] At the close of the 4th century CE, Claudian (the court poet of Emperor Honorius and Stilicho) wrote of Alans and Massagetae in the same breath: "the Massagetes who cruelly wound their horses that they may drink their blood, the Alans who break the ice and drink the waters of Maeotis' lake" (In Rufinem).
Sakasene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakas
The Persian word for Scythians
Kadusilor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusians
" Modern day Talysh people generally identify themselves with the ancient Cadusians."
Gellor cousins of Cadusians, maybe origin of names Gilan and Gilakis.
Kaspiana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspians
Utilor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udi_people 10,000 Udi, christian survivors of old Albanians. Their langage (Lezghian sub-family of NE Caucasian) is the surviror of the old Albanian language.sfa
Karkarlar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargareans
"In addition to their importance to the ancestry of Chechens and Ingush, the Gargareans have also been considered possibly central to the formation of the Èrs, another historical (albeit now extinct) Nakh people living in Northern Armenia and Hereti (the name Hereti is derived from them)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%88rs_people
Amardlar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amard

Caspians, Hyrcanians (modern Gilan, Mazandaran and Golestan), Outians (Udi), Myques (Caspian Muski?), Mosches (Black Sea Muski), Matienes (around Van Lake south of Armenia, "The Mannaeans who probably spoke a Hurro-Urartian language, were subdued by the Scytho-Kimmerians during the seventh and eighth centuries BC. Matiene was ultimately conquered by the Medes in about 609 BCE."), Armenians, Phrygians, Assyrians,  Sakas  of Xerxes army(480BC) are described by Hérodote.


In the second map, we see
Sarmata refers to Massagetes/Alani come from Aral Sea shores http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asii , the old kingdom of Alani/Osseti which dominated North Caucasus before turkish arrivals and prolonged to south Caucaus along the Caspian shores.
Shakashen refers to Sakasene
Utik (Otene) refers to Utilor.
Kaspiana refers to Caspians
Gardman an Armenia province and city sampleds by Herrero et al-2012
Getari Getiae ? (weakly probable) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae
Gugarsk refers to Gasgi.
Gelawu refers to Gellor.
  


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 01, 2012, 03:49:02 PM
I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Not the historical period, but if we go back 4000+ years, it is a different story. Speaking for N Mesopotamians only.  

Edit.  Apologies.  If you are referring to as far back as 2000 BCE and earlier, then yes.  

What I'm getting at is to answer the question, would the the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrian R1b folks probably have spoken Semitic languages in the Bronze Are or something else?  

Is it known these people adopted Semitic languages or are a mixture of people inluding those that did not speak Semitic languages?

I know the Hurrians and Hattians of the Bronze Age have been discussed. Is it just is likely the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrians were speaking one of those languages versus some Semitic languages?

Hi Mike.  When you have an hour or so, please read through this thread.  The link begins at page 11: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=13197&page=11 (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=13197&page=11)  

There is a great deal of very interesting information.  Including possible Indo-European links in the Bronze and Iron ages.  For instance, archaeologists have found evidence of cremations at sites with ties to the Assyrian ruling class.   However, in another post in the thread, one reads the following:

Quote
According to archeologist Schloen: "Kuttumuwa's inscription shows a fascinating mixture of non-Semitic and Semitic cultural elements, including a belief in the enduring human soul-which did not inhabit the bones of the deceased, as in traditional Semitic thought, but inhabited his stone monument, possibly because the remains of the deceased were cremated. Cremation was considered to be abhorrent in the Old Testament and in traditional West Semitic culture, but there is archaeological evidence for Indo-European-style cremation in neighboring Iron Age sites."


As for your specific question, here is a post from that thread.  There is a great deal we simply do not know.  I do not believe N Mesopotamia was Semitic-speaking ~4500 years ago.  The ancestral home of the Alawites includes, and is relatively near an area where several ancient Indo-European-speaking peoples were located ~3000 years back, ~4000 years back...(Hittite, Luwian, Lycian, etc.).  Please see this speculative map of languages of Anatolia and N Mesopotamia in the year 1700 BCE: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/BC1700.jpg (http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/BC1700.jpg)

Quote
[A]s literacy dawns over the horizon of prehistory the first ethnic group whom we know to have inhabited the region [~ Arbil and its environs] are the Hurrians. This is not to say there were not other groups. There almost certainly were. Texts over these millennia relating to the eastern frontiers of Mesopotamia (for instance Ur III administrative documents and the Shemshara archives) contain a large number of personal names whose linguistic affiliation has not yet been established and it is, in my view, probable that parent languages will one be day be recognised and reconstructed for at least some of them. Be that as it may, the Hurrians are the earliest definable group for whose presence in the region we currently have evidence; followed closely by the Sumerians.

Tell Baqrta/Tell Nader Project 2011
Dr. Konstantinos Kopanias


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 01, 2012, 03:58:14 PM
Another post from that thread, on the topic:

Akkadian and Sumerian Language Contact

by Gábor Zólyomi

forthcoming in Stefan Weninger, ed., Semitic Languages. An International Handbook (HSK 36). Berlin — New York, Mouton de Gruyter, pp. 387–393

Quote
A distinctive development of Akkadian phonology is the gradual merger and loss of the five reconstructed Proto-Semitic ‘guttural’ consonants */!/, */h/, */hø /, */"/, and */g/ by the 2nd millennium B.C.E. (cf. GAG § 23; Huehnergard 1998, 38!40, 587; Kouwenberg 2006). As Sumerian had no such phonemes, this development has been considered a prime example of Sumerian substrate influence on Akkadian.

In the Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, the presence of the newly emerged /e/ in turn caused every /a/ in the stem and the pronominal affixes of the verb to change to /e/, a development known as ‘Babylonian Vowel Harmony’ (Kouwenberg 2001, 226). As a similar rule causing the assimilation of different vowels within a word played an important role in Sumerian (see Keetman 2005, 11!13), Keetman suggested that Babylonian Vowel Harmony might reflect the influence of Sumerian (2004, 11).

These developments started in about the 24th century B.C.E. and were completed by the first part of the 2nd millennium B.C.E. They therefore overlap in time with the period of assumed asymmetrical bilingualism. One is therefore tempted to assume that these phonological changes may in fact reflect the influence of a Sumerian speaking population gradually shifting to Akkadian. Hasselbach finds that contrary to expectations the orthography indicates the loss of gutturals and the phonemicization of /e/ in texts from the north first, but not from the south. She does, however, note the possibility that the Akkadian of the southern texts ‘might have been a learned literary language that was not native to this area’.

In addition to loanwords, there exist a number of Sumerian and Akkadian idioms which correspond to each other word for word, e.g. šag-še — gid = ana libbim šadadum ‘to consider earnestly’ (lit. ‘to draw to the heart’) (cf. Edzard 2003, 175!176).


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 01, 2012, 04:04:58 PM
A few posts on the topic of Assyrian cremations, below.  There are more.

Three related posts:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=837989&postcount=146 (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=837989&postcount=146)

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=838064&postcount=147 (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=838064&postcount=147)

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=838363&postcount=148 (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=838363&postcount=148)


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 01, 2012, 04:09:07 PM
Horse sacrifice:

A Neo-Assyrian Text Describing a Royal Funeral

Dr. John MacGinnis, Cambridge

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=866964&postcount=188 (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=866964&postcount=188)


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 01, 2012, 07:51:30 PM
Based on Marko's 67 STR R tree.

Five of the Assyrian R-L584 men are tested through 67 markers.  Two L277 men (one speculative), are also tested through 67 markers.  A number of the Assyrian men are not tested through 67 markers.

R1b1a2a1b (L584)

Assyrian #1, kit # 205749: TMRCA of 1848 years with Askhenazi Cohanim and Syrian Jewish men.

Assyrian #2, kit # 213562: TMRCA of 2239 years with Assyrian #1 and Askhenazi Cohanim and Syrian Jewish men.  Another 1011 years (3250 years), connects him to four men.  One of the men lists France as an origin.

Assyrian #3*, kit # 147979: TMRCA of 3293 years with two men of unknown origin.  One of the two men lists "Strickland" as a surname.

Assyrian #4, kit # 184027: TMRCA of 1505 years with three men.  At least two appear to be Armenian.  Further removed from present, this branch appears dominated by Armenians.

Assyrian #5, kit # 90492: TMRCA of 1735 years with a man listing Ireland as an origin.  Another 2025 years (3760 years), connects him with a number of what appear to be Armenian and European men.

L277 (23andMe)

Assyrian #6, kit # 213878: TMRCA of 2293 with an Armenian man.  Another 278 years (2571 years), connects him with a number of men, including a man listing Qatar as an origin, a man with a listed surname of "Hussein," an Assyrian from Iraq (Assyrian #7), and an Armenian man.  Another 854 years back (3425 years), connects him with a number of Armenian men, a man from Russia (Jewish?), a man from Kazakhstan, a man from Qatar, a man from Georgia, and a man of unknown origin.

Assyrian #7*, kit # 190249: See details for Assyrian #6, above.

* Not SNP confirmed.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 02, 2012, 07:14:31 AM
My feeling is that L23* in the north Levant and northern Mesopotamia is related to the Hittite empire.  I found Anatole's paper about an outpouring from the north a lot more persuasive than the idea of people moving from the farming zone into the eastern steppes etc.  R1b just not have the structure you would expect from deep time presence in the farming zone.  A movement south c. 4000BC from the north would seem to me to fit quite well with the Anatolian early split from the PIE zone.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 02, 2012, 10:04:29 AM
R1b reaches a frequency of >40% among some minorities in Northern Iran. Are you actually saying 40 % of male lineages in certain North Iranian communities who are known for their high degrees of endogamy are Armenian or Assyrian in origin? Nor does it explain why North Iranians (the entire north not just the northwest where armenians and assyrians are concentrated) and South Iranians do have R1b when Armenians and Assyrians are concentrated in NW Iran. Why would the Gilaki have R1b ? No Armenians and Assyrians there. And once again doesn't explain how Assyrians would have gotten R1b without I . I get that you want to make L23 European but that all Iranian R1b derives from Assyrians and Armenians has very little to support it.

Doesn't explain the M269 in Balochis and Tajiks either. Their admixture with Iranian plataeau populations is more than a few centuries old and there are certainly no Assyrians or Armenians in SE Iran, SW Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where these two groups live.
Interesting map of langages in Iran
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8673/inuseiran.jpg

I found statistics for R1a, R1b and I given by  Humanist/Handschar in
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=25913
Pop   N   R1a   Language      Source
Druze   366   1%   Semitic   Arabic   Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri   44   2%   Semitic   Arabic   Fernandes at al.*
Alawi   104   2%   Semitic   Arabic   Donbak et al.*
Assyr   106   2%   Semitic   Aramaic   Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ   79   0%   Semitic   Hebrew   Behar et al.
IranJ   49   4%   Semitic   Hebrew   Behar et al.
Armeni   1147   4%   Indo-European   Armenian   Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews   99   4%   Semitic   Hebrew/Aramaic   Nebel et al.
Yezidi   196   2%   Indo-Iranian(IE)   Kurmanji   Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit   196   0%   Semitic   Arabic/Aramaic   Haber et al.
YemenJ   74   3%   Semitic   Hebrew/Arabic   Behar et al.
Bakht   46   15%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Luri   Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh   18   6%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Talysh   Roewer et al.
Gilak   43   14%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Gilaki   Roewer et al.
Mazan   46   7%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Mazandarani   Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh   43   0%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Talysh   Roewer et al.
Tats   20   0%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Tati   Bertoncini et al.
------------------------
Pop    N    R1b    Language        Source
Druze__    643    17%    Semitic    Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris    44    2%    Semitic    Arabic    Fernandes et al.
Alawi    104    33%    Semitic    Arabic    Donbak et al.
Assyr    79    24%    Semitic    Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
IraqJ    79    4%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
IranJ    49    2%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
Armen    413    29%    Indo-European    Armenian    Hererra et al.
NiqJ    99    13%    Semitic    Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
GrkOrt    59    14%    Semitic    Arabic    Haber et al.
Maron    196    8%    Semitic    Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
YemeJ    74    5%    Semitic    Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
Bakht    46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak    43    23%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan    46    15%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh    43    19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
----------------------
Balanovsky et al. Y-DNA I

Avar    2
Kubachi    2
Chechen   (Chechnya)   1
Circassians    0.7
Ingush   (Ingushetia)   0.7
Shapsug    0
Abkhaz    0
Ossets-Iron    0
Ossets-Digor    0
Chechen   (Ingushetia)   0
Chechen   (Dagestan)   0
Dargins    0
Kaitak    0
Lezghins    0

Herrera et al. Y-DNA I for 4 Armenian populations
Gardman 8.3
Ararat 2.7
Van 1.9
Sasun 0

Iranian data from Roewer et al. (DMXX from DNA-Forums)
Bakhtiari    8.7
North Talysh   4.7
Mazandarani   4.4
Gilaki 2.3
South Talysh   0
----------------------------------
Four your frequency > 40%, I suppose you refer this figure for 18 South Talish in Iranian South Coast of Caspian Sea .
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people, higher than I in the same people. If South-East   Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b, but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the  samples of descendants of  Greeks of West  coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).
Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".
In Mesolithics, I think R1b-L23xL51 was a great majority of population in Greece and South Balkans before the arrival of G2a, J2 and E1b1b1 in the last Mesolithic/.Early Neolithic. I2 were more concentrated in Centre-East Europe north of Danube-Bosna line.

Since LGM (25,000-19,000BP) which gived a great  advantage of one (maximum 2) haplogroup by region due to very hard life conditions and very weak population density by genetic drift and founding effect at the end of LGM and end of last cold peaks for sub-groups, then since the end of Younger Dryas (12,000BP), there have been a continous mixing. Genetic drifts and founding effects could take place in very localized and weak populations, I don't accept a lot of bottlenecks found by population geneticians for Middle and Modern ages  at all . In Europe, the last great founding effect was the entry of hg I1 in empty Scandinavia.  I am convinced that archeologia and physical anthropology show a relative stability of population in Europe and large parts of Asia and Africa, except progressive mixings more and more accelerated thru the modern times until present.

For R1b along the Caspian Sea shores,from Daghestan with high frequencies for Bagvadals, Tabarassans and some frequencies for Kumiks and Lezgians, to the old Hyrcania with Talishes, Gilakis and Mazanderis, it would be necessary to know better the ethnical  formation  of Albania (and Atropatene) during the Greco-Roman times in the present Azerbaidjan.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28354&PN=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aghuank.jpg

About R1b in Central Asia and South Asia, I have no idea about the frequency of R1b-L23xL51. If existing, it could be partially explained by the Greek presence in Bactriane and arounding regions during three centuries (From 325 BC (Alexander) to 15AD the end of the last indo-greek kingdom in Pendjab).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks (nice map)

Tadjiks are descendants of old inhabitants of Bactriane and Sogdiane.
Balouches  are said to come from the Caspian shores and "Balochi is closely related to other Northwestern Iranian languages such as Kurdish".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom  (nice maps)

It is difficult to know the proportion of Greek "blood" in the nobles of these kingdoms and the following Kuchan and Sakas kingdoms, probably decreasing with the time.

I suspect the I in Iran is recent admixture (for example we know Viking raids reached the Caspian coast of Iran-some of this I is I1 not I2 so a Balkan origin is really out of the question).  The sample sizes were also small for those North iranian populations I believe.


There is close to zero Greek ancestry in Central /South Asia. Why do people feel the need to invoke such ridiculous theories? There is enough R1b in Northern iran and iranian dynasties have ruled the region for how much more than Greeks and their short lived empire. Yet the R1b-L23 there is from Europe for some.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 02, 2012, 10:09:39 AM
This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right?  Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe.  If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Just thinking out loud here...

The western Balkans seem to have many times more I2 than the east. If the R1b migration to Iran and Caucasia came from the Eastern Balkans, perhaps there was no I2 to be picked up along the way?

I really doubt this. This is wishful thinking. Like I said the I in Iran is of recent admixture. Its not even all I2. A more reasonable explanation would be R1b originated in Anatolia and is found in iran due to demic diffusion from the territory right next to it.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 02, 2012, 10:13:22 AM

Interesting map of langages in Iran
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8673/inuseiran.jpg

I found statistics for R1a, R1b and I given by  Humanist/Handschar in
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=25913


Pop      N     R1a  Language            Source
Druze___ 366   1%   Semitic Arabic       Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri__ 44   2%   Semitic Arabic       Fernandes at al.*
Alawi___ 104   2%   Semitic Arabic       Donbak et al.*
Assyr___ 106   2%   Semitic Aramaic     Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ___ 79    0%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    4%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
Armeni__ 1147  4%   Indo-European Armenian     Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews_ 99    4%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic     Nebel et al.
Yezidi__ 196   2%   Indo-Iranian(IE) Kurmanji     Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit_ 196   0%   Semitic Arabic/Aramaic     Haber et al.
YemenJ__ 74    3%   Semitic Hebrew/Arabic     Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    15%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri     Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    6%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh      Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    14%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki      Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    7%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani     Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh     Roewer et al.
Tats____ 20    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Tati     Bertoncini et al.

------------------------

Pop      N     R1b  Language            Source
Druze___ 643   17%   Semitic Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris_ 44    2%    Semitic Arabic    Fernandes et al.
Alawi___ 104   33%   Semitic Arabic    Donbak et al.
Assyr___ 79    24%   Semitic Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
IraqJ___ 79    4%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    2%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
Armen___ 413   29%   Indo-European Armenian    Hererra et al.
NiqJ____ 99    13%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
GrkOrt__ 59    14%   Semitic Arabic    Haber et al.
Maron___ 196   8%    Semitic Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
YemeJ___ 74    5%    Semitic Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    44%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    23%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    15%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43   19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

----------------------


Balanovsky et al. Y-DNA I

Avar    2
Kubachi    2
Chechen   (Chechnya)   1
Circassians    0.7
Ingush   (Ingushetia)   0.7
Shapsug    0
Abkhaz    0
Ossets-Iron    0
Ossets-Digor    0
Chechen   (Ingushetia)   0
Chechen   (Dagestan)   0
Dargins    0
Kaitak    0
Lezghins    0

Herrera et al. Y-DNA I for 4 Armenian populations
Gardman 8.3
Ararat 2.7
Van 1.9
Sasun 0

Iranian data from Roewer et al. (DMXX from DNA-Forums)
Bakhtiari    8.7
North Talysh   4.7
Mazandarani   4.4
Gilaki 2.3
South Talysh   0
----------------------------------
Four your frequency > 40%, I suppose you refer this figure for 18 South Talish in Iranian South Coast of Caspian Sea .
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people,higher than I in the same people. If South-East   Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b , but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the  samples of descendants of  Greeks of West  coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).
Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".....

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right?  Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe.  If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

I think this is another bit of evidence that R1b was more easterly and northerly that the Balkans or Anatolia.  Add to the fact that R1b's structure is suggestive of a lack of farming style demographic expansion the Balkans and Anatolia again do not really fit as they were early farming areas (very early in Anatolia).  I think its all begining to point to R1b being immediate westerly neighbours of R1a on the steppes.  That is the vvery area that might have been squeezed between Cucuteni-Trypole (non-R1b) farmers pushing in from the west and the other steppes peoples (R1a?) to the east.  Maybe R1b was a Bug-Dneister haplogroup.  The west end of the steppes has a terribly complex later  history.  Regardless of the specifcs it does look to me from the Iranian aspect that R1b was a factor in the steppes.  It probably clealry wasnt as simple as R1b being the western steppes groups and R1a the eastern steppes given the R1a in corded ware and R1b very closeby at the same time in eastern Germany but some sort of pattern with more R1b in the west and R1a in the east and a mixed area would make a lot of sense.

I think if the variance dating of R1b phlogeny is accepted (which I admit I was a dounting Thomas about for a long time) then R1b was not in the farming zone in Europe (or perhaps only marginally so when a few lineages strayed into the zone) until 3000BC.  I think if the variance dating of the phylogeny of R1b is true then there is absolutely no chance that it originated in Mesopotamia, Anatolia or in the Balkans Neolithic.  The evidenced is piling up (and I admit its surprised me) but no point in denying that it suggests R1b's roots were in an area outside the early farming zone and indeed until very late.   The steppes are looking very very likely now when all the new evidence is weighed up.  If their first intrusions from the steppes were into the Caucuses, western Anatolia, Romania etc as hinted at by variance then


Actually it does look as simple as R1b in the Western Steepe (if that) and R1a in the Eastern steepe. The lack of M269 Eastern steepe and Central Asia is very telling. This is the first I ever heard that Tripoyle didn't have R1b.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 04, 2012, 08:03:40 PM
Tying autosomal DNA with Y chromosome data is tricky business.  I acknowledge that.  However, when academics state the following, the autosomal data (in addition to higher resolution Y chromosome data) can be of definite value:

Quote
Another half of the Assyrian hap-lotypes in the Project, mostly from Iran, have a slightly mutated “classical” European R1b1a2 base haplotype (with DYS464 = 15 15 17 17), and a common ancestor of 850 ± 360 ybp calcu-lated from the first 12 markers, and 1100 ± 280 ybp from the first 37 markers. This R1b evidence is clearly a relatively recent event in Assyrian population, brought from Europe.

A member at another forum (Lemminkäinen) prepared the following list, based on data generated by Polako, for his Eurogenes project.  The program was discussed by Dienekes as well, here: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/spatial-ancestry-analysis-yang-et-al.html

Eurogenes link: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/06/genetic-map-of-west-eurasia-with.html

Link to post referred to above, and quoted below: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=889235&postcount=2976

"Average distances between halves per population"

Chuvash   0,913242501
PT   0,544981813
Vologda   0,486649805
CE   0,469433174
ES   0,448778325
HU   0,446447909
Erzya   0,427333165
TR   0,391871913
RU   0,382262504
BG   0,373559831
Moksha   0,355663052
FI   0,342397502
RO   0,312567546
SE   0,312296681
FR   0,307627199
DE   0,306954583
AJ   0,303620364
Kent   0,288509654
BE   0,278592323
UA   0,268092195
UK   0,236769741
NL   0,225852279
Cornwall   0,203060592
DK   0,200171343
IE   0,185305285
TS   0,184720844
IT   0,177121845
Orcadia   0,165135997
PL   0,162500614
NO   0,149995288
NE   0,147649865
BY   0,138516111
GR   0,13569179
LI   0,081864024
EE   0,038299188
AS   0,018202091 <-- Assyrians


This is how Polako explained the "halves" :

Quote
The reason for this is that SPA offers a mode in which it assumes samples are of mixed ancestry, and thus can divide their genomes into two halves (represented by two sets of PC coordinates). One way to look at it is that each half represents a parent, but that would only be accurate for people who really are of mixed origin, with their parents coming from two clearly distinct groups in terms of genetic structure. So it's probably better to say that SPA turns each of the genomes into two of the most highly differentiated versions possible, across the first two dimensions. Also, as far as I can see, the program can come up with different solutions in different runs for the same person. Some of these solutions look like they're based on very ancient admixtures, and others more recent. In any case, I think this is an excellent way to show the dichotomy in our genetic data, even if we're not mixed.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 05, 2012, 12:35:16 AM
Tying autosomal DNA with Y chromosome data is tricky business.  I acknowledge that.  However, when academics state the following, the autosomal data (in addition to higher resolution Y chromosome data) can be of definite value:

Quote
Another half of the Assyrian hap-lotypes in the Project, mostly from Iran, have a slightly mutated “classical” European R1b1a2 base haplotype (with DYS464 = 15 15 17 17), and a common ancestor of 850 ± 360 ybp calcu-lated from the first 12 markers, and 1100 ± 280 ybp from the first 37 markers. This R1b evidence is clearly a relatively recent event in Assyrian population, brought from Europe.

A member at another forum (Lemminkäinen) prepared the following list, based on data generated by Polako, for his Eurogenes project.  The program was discussed by Dienekes as well, here: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/spatial-ancestry-analysis-yang-et-al.html

Eurogenes link: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/06/genetic-map-of-west-eurasia-with.html

Link to post referred to above, and quoted below: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=889235&postcount=2976

"Average distances between halves per population"

Chuvash   0,913242501
PT   0,544981813
Vologda   0,486649805
CE   0,469433174
ES   0,448778325
HU   0,446447909
Erzya   0,427333165
TR   0,391871913
RU   0,382262504
BG   0,373559831
Moksha   0,355663052
FI   0,342397502
RO   0,312567546
SE   0,312296681
FR   0,307627199
DE   0,306954583
AJ   0,303620364
Kent   0,288509654
BE   0,278592323
UA   0,268092195
UK   0,236769741
NL   0,225852279
Cornwall   0,203060592
DK   0,200171343
IE   0,185305285
TS   0,184720844
IT   0,177121845
Orcadia   0,165135997
PL   0,162500614
NO   0,149995288
NE   0,147649865
BY   0,138516111
GR   0,13569179
LI   0,081864024
EE   0,038299188
AS   0,018202091 <-- Assyrians


This is how Polako explained the "halves" :

Quote
The reason for this is that SPA offers a mode in which it assumes samples are of mixed ancestry, and thus can divide their genomes into two halves (represented by two sets of PC coordinates). One way to look at it is that each half represents a parent, but that would only be accurate for people who really are of mixed origin, with their parents coming from two clearly distinct groups in terms of genetic structure. So it's probably better to say that SPA turns each of the genomes into two of the most highly differentiated versions possible, across the first two dimensions. Also, as far as I can see, the program can come up with different solutions in different runs for the same person. Some of these solutions look like they're based on very ancient admixtures, and others more recent. In any case, I think this is an excellent way to show the dichotomy in our genetic data, even if we're not mixed.

Am I right in stating that those haplotypes are not shared with ethnic Iranian or Armenians and belong mainly to Assyrians? Iranian R1b looks quite different from Assyrian/Armenian R1b. Although I don't know why European R1bs among Assyrians would be concentrated in Iranian Assyrians especially since they migrated from somewhere else and should be found among the sourve population in Iraq.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 05, 2012, 04:24:28 PM
Tying autosomal DNA with Y chromosome data is tricky business.  I acknowledge that.  However, when academics state the following, the autosomal data (in addition to higher resolution Y chromosome data) can be of definite value:

Quote
Another half of the Assyrian hap-lotypes in the Project, mostly from Iran, have a slightly mutated “classical” European R1b1a2 base haplotype (with DYS464 = 15 15 17 17), and a common ancestor of 850 ± 360 ybp calcu-lated from the first 12 markers, and 1100 ± 280 ybp from the first 37 markers. This R1b evidence is clearly a relatively recent event in Assyrian population, brought from Europe.

Humanist, who is the person you are quoting and from what source?

.. Am I right in stating that those haplotypes are not shared with ethnic Iranian or Armenians and belong mainly to Assyrians? Iranian R1b looks quite different from Assyrian/Armenian R1b. Although I don't know why European R1bs among Assyrians would be concentrated in Iranian Assyrians especially since they migrated from somewhere else and should be found among the sourve population in Iraq.

It could be just a coincidence of STR mutations (convergence) that there are European-like (assume we mean WAMH) R1b folks among the Assyrians.   

There is another explanation. I guess, we should not assume too much and consider that may be we have our terminology turned around.  Rather than saying the Assyrian haplotypes look European, perhaps we should say we see a lot of Assyrian haplotypes plastered all over Western Europe?   


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 05, 2012, 04:34:45 PM
The great majority of Assyrians tested have been "Nestorians."  The "Nestorians" lived, historically, in the areas from the Tigris to points east, toward the Iranian border.  Arbil is a very significant part of the story, I believe.   The so-called Assyrian triangle: Assur-Arbil-Nineveh.

Some bits on Arbil, if you wish to read a bit about its history.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5479/

Quote
Erbil Citadel Town, which is situated dramatically on top of an artificial, 32-meters high earthen mound, and visually dominating the expansive modern city of Erbil, is believed to have been in continuous existence for 7000 years or even more. Thus, it may be regarded as the oldest continuously inhabited settlement in the world.  Because of its past fortifications and steeply inclined mound, which is at some locations nearly 45 degrees, it has managed to survive numerous sieges and fierce attacks.  The existing fabric, however, goes back to several hundred years but is, nevertheless, of extreme vernacular architectural and urban interest, not only for Iraq but also for humanity at large.

Wikipedia:

Quote
The name Erbil was mentioned in Sumerian holy writings (c. 2000 BC) as Urbilum, Urbelum or Urbillum,[6] and it may be Sumerian in origin. It is thought to originate from Sumerian UR (city) + BELA (high) meaning the city located in the upper area. The initial ar element also appears in a number of Hurrian place names.

Quote
An inscription found in Egypt written by Arsames describes a few Assyrian cities whom obtained administrative centres during Achaemenid rule:[20]

Lair: Assyrian Lahiru (Eski Kifri), by the Diyala Valley
Arzuhina: Tell Chemchemal, 40 kilometers east of Kirkuk
Arbela
Halsu: Location unknown
Matalubash: Assyrian Ubaše (Tell Huwaish), 20 kilometers north of ancient city of Assur


Quote
Adiabene (from the Ancient Greek Ἀδιαβηνή, Adiabene, itself derived from Classical Syriac: ܚܕܝܐܒ‎, Ḥaḏy’aḇ or Ḥḏay’aḇ, Old Persian/Armenian: Nodshirakan[1]) was an ancient kingdom in Assyria,[2][3][4][5] with its capital at Arbela (modern-day Arbil, Iraq). Its rulers converted to Judaism from Ashurism in the 1st century.[6] Queen Helena of Adiabene (known in Jewish sources as Heleni HaMalka) moved to Jerusalem where she built palaces for herself and her sons, Izates bar Monobaz and Monobaz II at the northern part of the city of David, south of the Temple Mount. According to the Talmud, both Helena and Monbaz donated large funds for the Temple of Jerusalem.

Quote
Arbela was an early center of the Syriac Christianity. By 100 AD there was a bishop seated in the city. As many modern Assyrians use Biblical (including Jewish) names, most of the early bishops had Jewish/Biblical names, which does not suggest that many of the early Christians in this city were converts from Judaism.[16] It served as the seat of a Metropolitan of the Assyrian Church of the East. From the city's Christian period come many church fathers and well-known authors in Syriac. The city's Aramaic-speaking Assyrian population remained significant in size until destruction of the city by the forces of Timur in 1397.

Quote
Adiabene (Syriac: Hadyab ܚܕܝܐܒ) was a metropolitan province of the Church of the East between the 5th and 14th centuries, with more than fifteen known suffragan dioceses at different periods in its history. Although the name Hadyab normally connoted the region around Erbil and Mosul, the boundaries of the East Syrian metropolitan province went well beyond the Erbil and Mosul districts. Its known suffragan dioceses included Beth Bgash (the Hakkari region of eastern Turkey) and Adarbaigan (the Ganzak district, to the southeast of Lake Urmi), well to the east of Adiabene proper.

I am one of these "Nestorians" from Iran.   My Dodecad values:

21.1   Gedrosia
0   Siberian
0   Northwest_African
0   Southeast_Asian
9.1   Atlantic_Med
0   North_European
0.2   South_Asian
0   East_African
18.4   Southwest_Asian
0.5   East_Asian
50.6   Caucasus
0   Sub_Saharan


  


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 05, 2012, 04:36:15 PM
Tying autosomal DNA with Y chromosome data is tricky business.  I acknowledge that.  However, when academics state the following, the autosomal data (in addition to higher resolution Y chromosome data) can be of definite value:

Quote
Another half of the Assyrian hap-lotypes in the Project, mostly from Iran, have a slightly mutated “classical” European R1b1a2 base haplotype (with DYS464 = 15 15 17 17), and a common ancestor of 850 ± 360 ybp calcu-lated from the first 12 markers, and 1100 ± 280 ybp from the first 37 markers. This R1b evidence is clearly a relatively recent event in Assyrian population, brought from Europe.

Humanist, who is the person you are quoting and from what source? 

Hi Mike.  It is from Klyosov's "Arbins" paper.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 05, 2012, 05:31:30 PM

Am I right in stating that those haplotypes are not shared with ethnic Iranian or Armenians and belong mainly to Assyrians?

Yes, from the samples I have seen, I believe that it is not incorrect to state that.  The one exception might be SW Iran, by the Iraq border.  Among the Bakhtiari.  There is a man on 23andMe who is from Khuzestan and presumed R-L584.  From the haplotypes reported in Roewer et al., the Iranian minority haplotypes most similar to the Assyrian modal were two from the Bakhtiari (FTDNA standard 1-12, excluding 426 and 388). 

Haplotypes from Roewer et al. wth the DYS389i-DYS392-DYS389ii motif 14-13-30 (not necessarily R-M269):


Code:
ht 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389I 392 389II
151 12 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
211 13 24 15 10 11 13 xx xx 11 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
150 12 24 14 10 12 15 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
213 12 25 15 10 12 12 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
152 12 24 14 11 12 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 N Talysh NW Iran
148 12 23 14 11 11 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
239 13 24 16 11 12 13 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
ASY 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
      


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 06, 2012, 07:35:16 PM

Am I right in stating that those haplotypes are not shared with ethnic Iranian or Armenians and belong mainly to Assyrians?

Yes, from the samples I have seen, I believe that it is not incorrect to state that.  The one exception might be SW Iran, by the Iraq border.  Among the Bakhtiari.  There is a man on 23andMe who is from Khuzestan and presumed R-L584.  From the haplotypes reported in Roewer et al., the Iranian minority haplotypes most similar to the Assyrian modal were two from the Bakhtiari (FTDNA standard 1-12, excluding 426 and 388). 

Haplotypes from Roewer et al. wth the DYS389i-DYS392-DYS389ii motif 14-13-30 (not necessarily R-M269):


Code:
ht 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389I 392 389II
151 12 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
211 13 24 15 10 11 13 xx xx 11 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
150 12 24 14 10 12 15 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
213 12 25 15 10 12 12 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
152 12 24 14 11 12 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 N Talysh NW Iran
148 12 23 14 11 11 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
239 13 24 16 11 12 13 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
ASY 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
      


I wonder why that is. Any idea?

What about samples from Iranian Azerbaijan a region which apparently Azeris, Kurds, Assyrians and Armenians claims as their own. I wonder which claim is correct.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 06, 2012, 09:07:30 PM

Am I right in stating that those haplotypes are not shared with ethnic Iranian or Armenians and belong mainly to Assyrians?

Yes, from the samples I have seen, I believe that it is not incorrect to state that.  The one exception might be SW Iran, by the Iraq border.  Among the Bakhtiari.  There is a man on 23andMe who is from Khuzestan and presumed R-L584.  From the haplotypes reported in Roewer et al., the Iranian minority haplotypes most similar to the Assyrian modal were two from the Bakhtiari (FTDNA standard 1-12, excluding 426 and 388). 

Haplotypes from Roewer et al. wth the DYS389i-DYS392-DYS389ii motif 14-13-30 (not necessarily R-M269):


Code:
ht 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389I 392 389II
151 12 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
211 13 24 15 10 11 13 xx xx 11 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
150 12 24 14 10 12 15 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
213 12 25 15 10 12 12 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
152 12 24 14 11 12 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 N Talysh NW Iran
148 12 23 14 11 11 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
239 13 24 16 11 12 13 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
ASY 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
      


I wonder why that is. Any idea?

What about samples from Iranian Azerbaijan a region which apparently Azeris, Kurds, Assyrians and Armenians claims as their own. I wonder which claim is correct.

Assyrians are from N Mesopotamia.  Not Azerbaijan.  We have lived in other areas, including NW Iran, but both Zoroastrianism and Islam were not very accepting of Christian proselytism.

Wikipedia:

Quote
When the Sassanid dynasty came into power in 228 CE, they aggressively promoted the Zurvanite form of Zoroastrianism and, in some cases, persecuted Christians.[10] When the Sassanids captured territory, they often built fire temples there to promote their religion. After Constantine, the Sassanids were suspicious of Christians, not least because of their perceived ties to the Christian Roman Empire. As such the Persian Church (the Church of the East) officially broke with Roman Christianity, and was tolerated and even sometimes favored by the Sassanids.

A form of Zoroastrianism was also prominent in the pre-Christian Caucasus region (especially modern-day Azerbaijan). During the periods of their suzerainty over the Caucasus, the Sassanids made attempts to promote the religion there as well.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 06, 2012, 09:45:50 PM
A unique modal at loci DYF406S1 and DYS511 for R-L584:

406   511      
11   11   R-L584
         
10   11   R-P25*   
11   10   R-M269*   
10   11   R-L23   
10   10   R-L51*   
10   10   R-L11*   
10   10   R-U106*   
10   10   R-L48*   
10   10   R-P312   
10   10   R-Z196   
10   10   R-U152 / S28   
10   10   R-L2   
10   10   R-L21   
10   10   R-M222*   
11   10   R-L513*   
10   10   R-L176.2*   
10   10   R-SRY2627*   
10   10   R-SRY2627?      
            
            
Sources:
1.ht35 project
2.http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Y-DNA_modal_haplotypes_R1b.html    (may not be current).



Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 07, 2012, 10:28:50 AM
(The Motherland?)

In Recent News:

Mesopotamia’s civilization originated in Armenia
Unique discoveries revealed as a result of excavations at Shengavit (4000-3000 B.C.) confirm that Armenia is the motherland of metallurgy, jeweler’s art, wine-making and horse breeding.
(more..) http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/society/news/50844/

Armenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia

Much credit to Maliclavelli who has pointed out the inconsistencies in the Assyrian/Iraqi R1b line. Some have proposed that the R1b's are really Armenians, which really looks to be the case. A.K has demonstrated his ideas also, showing they do not come from Levant. There are 20 groupings in Assyrian project, including R1b.

www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

It has been almost 2 years since this thread started. Since then we have learned L584.  Are Iraqi L584+ or L584-? Are Iraqi Jew's L584+ or L584-?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 07, 2012, 07:12:01 PM
(The Motherland?)

In Recent News:

Mesopotamia’s civilization originated in Armenia
Unique discoveries revealed as a result of excavations at Shengavit (4000-3000 B.C.) confirm that Armenia is the motherland of metallurgy, jeweler’s art, wine-making and horse breeding.
(more..) http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/society/news/50844/

Armenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia

Much credit to Maliclavelli who has pointed out the inconsistencies in the Assyrian/Iraqi R1b line. Some have proposed that the R1b's are really Armenians, which really looks to be the case.

We are Armenians, Silesian?   You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, my friend, but I find that you feel that way is a bit disappointing, given all of our discussions.   I ask that you kindly answer the following.   Where is the Armenian Indo-European stratum in our vernacular (3)?  Where are the fastIBD segments, if we received our lines from Armenians in the relatively recent past (2)?  Why did Professor Yepiskoposyan state the following, when he examined the Y-DNA lines of Kurds, Armenians, and Assyrians (1)?

1.

Y chromosome diversity in Kurds and Assyrians living in Armenia
Yepiskoposyan et al 2002

734 ethnic Armenian, 196 Kurd and 106 Assyrian men were sampled in Armenia. DNA was extracted from buccal swab and typed for six STR...

Quote
Overall, Assyrians and Kurds appear to be genetically distinct from the general Armenian population, with Fst values suggesting that Assyrians are the most differentiated group from all Armenian regional populations and from Kurds.


2.

Dienekes' most recent (a few months back) fastIBD Z-scores for "Nestorian" Assyrians:

Asy   5.58
Krd   0.09
Arm   0.09
Cyp   0.04
Geo   -0.09
Trk   -0.11
Sic   -0.16
Grk   -0.18
Sit   -0.21
Srb   -0.28
CIT   -0.30
Oit   -0.30
Tus   -0.30
Rom   -0.34
Nit   -0.35
Bul   -0.43

These are the Armenian average and median Z-scores with Assyrian_D:

0.52   (Armenian Average with Assyrian_D)
0.48   (Armenian Median with Assyrian_D)
----------------------------------------------------------

And another neighboring population.

The same for the Kurds. Based on the values for the eight identified Kurds:

Kurds w/ Assyrian_D
0.42   (Average)
0.40   (Median)

Iraq Kurd only   
0.45   (Average)
0.62   (Median)

3.

A
Cambridge Professor of Semitic Philology Geoffrey Khan. "The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Barwar."

Quote
As already shown by Krotkoff (1985: 124–126), a number of lexical items in the NENA [Northeastern Neo-Aramaic] dialects, especially those relating to agriculture, can be traced back beyond Classical Aramaic to Akkadian or even Sumerian.

B
Again, Prof. Geoffrey Khan.

Quote
[M]y own conclusions concerning the historical background of the language spoken by the Assyrian communities today is that it is not a direct descendant of the earlier literary forms of Aramaic, such as Syriac. Rather it is a descendant of a vernacular language that was spoken in the Mesopotamian area. This vernacular is related to the literary forms of Aramaic but has also been influenced by other languages, which include, in the ancient period, the spoken ancient Assyrian [Akkadian]. In later periods it has come under increasing influence of non-Semitic languages, especially Kurdish.

Judging by the core morphology of the dialects spoken by Assyrian Christians, the earlier vernacular from which they are historically derived would be classified by most scholars as a variety of Aramaic. The issue, however, is that this was not like any variety of Aramaic that has survived in literary texts, such as Syriac.

C
Once more, Khan:

Quote
In sum, the evidence adduced above demonstrates that the dialects of Modern Assyrian are unlikely to be direct descendants of the literary Syriac language, although they are undoubtedly related to it. Rather they existed side-by-side with it for centuries. Some of the features of the modern spoken dialects that differ from literary Syriac can be shown to have emerged at a much earlier period by the fact that they occasionally surface in written texts by a process of linguistic interference. Some features of morphology, moreover, are typologically more archaic than the corresponding features in Syriac. Likewise, some lexical items of the modern dialects are not attested in Syriac but have roots that can be traced to antiquity in the Akkadian language.

D

Krotkoff, Georg, 1985, ‘Studies in Neo-Aramaic Lexicology’, in A. Kort and S. Morschauser, Biblical and Related Studies Presented to Samuel Iwry, Winona Lake, pp.123-134.

(Diacritical marks do not appear.)

Quote
The extraordinary tenacity of agricultural terminology is illustrated by the two terms mara 'spade, hoe' and rusta 'shovel, spade.' The former has a well documented history: Sumerian mar, Akkadian marru...

This term [missara] can be traced through older Aramaic mesara to Akkadian musarum, where it is most likely the reflect of Sumerian mu-sar 'garden.' The semantic and phonetic stability of this lexeme is remarkable...

Eastern Neo-Aramaic has been treated as a change-of-life baby of classical Syriac, an attitude based on the impression provided by the heavy overlay of OS [Syriac Liturgical tongue] in the missionary literature. It is, however, important to realize that Aramaic of the Targum and the Talmud is equally important for the elucidation of lexical problems of NA. Structurally, NA has achieved its own independent status, but the elements which are now part of its structure derive from different areas in time and space. Some features belong to immediately preceding periods of the history of the language, while others are of great antiquity. This is very obvious in the vocabulary, but applies also to structural elements. As a case in point, the infinite pattern of Akkadian (palaxu) has experienced a renaissance in NA (plaxa), bypassing the intermediate stages of Aramaic.

E

A New Attempt at Reconstructing Proto-Aramaic

Part II (2011)

Sergey Loesov

Russian State University for the Humanities, Moscow

The etymology of the -ē suffix

Quote
How does this evidence square with our ideas about the origin of the -ē suffix? There is no consensus about its etymology, except that it was not the masculine-plural-definite nominal ending in Proto-Aramaic (save perhaps for the nisba nouns). Three theories have been enjoying support since the late 19th century: 1) *-ayyāʔ > -ē; 2) generalization of the -ē that since prehistoric times had been used to the right of the nisba āy- in the whole of Aramaic; 3) borrowing of the Assyrian [Akkadian] masculine plural ending -ē.

Theory (1), being the weakest claim, is the most appealing one, but it has no phonological justification. A shift ayyā > -ē is attested nowhere in historical Aramaic, and the last-syllable stress makes it improbable in prehistoric times as well (Rosenthal 1936:76 fn.6, pace Nöldeke 1904 and Cantineau 1931).

Theory (2) is based on the assumption that kaŝdāyē < *kaŝdāyayyā should be “a natural Aramaic development, a simplification of the overly cumbersome *-ayayyâ” (Kaufman 1974:128 fn. 58). Thus this theory presupposes two unexplained (and to my mind improbable) developments: the ad hoc contraction -ayyā > -ē in this particular surrounding and the subsequent generalization of -ē to combine with all the relevant nominal bases.

Theory (3), shared by the present writer, is a strong claim, therefore it requires typological and historical justifications. The borrowing hypothesis will look more plausible if we relate it to the fact that the morpheme in question (i.e., the postpositive article of Proto-Aramaic) was going to forfeit its pristine discourse function in the whole of Middle Eastern Aramaic. It is natural to ask whether this shared loss had its beginnings in the immediate common ancestor of the Eastern Aramaic languages.

Aramaic (both Old and Middle) has two productive derivational morphemes almost certainly borrowed from Akkadian: the nominal abstract suffix -ū(t) and the causative verbal prefix š-/s-. The -ū(t) suffix is highly expansive, to the degree of becoming “parasitisch” (Barth 1894:415), while š-/s- is hardly attested with more than a dozen Aramaic roots (cf. Loesov 2009:490 f., a review of data gleaned from reference tools). Given this evidence and the above typological considerations, the borrowing of the plural nominal ending -ē from Akkadian into Proto-Eastern-Aramaic does not look as improbable as it would seem on first sight.


Based on the totality of the data, this is my current opinion regarding Assyrian R-L23:

The relatively close relationship observed between Assyrians and the Armenians of Karabakh and Syunik, in my opinion, represents the shared ancient substratum of both people. A substratum dating to before northern Mesopotamia was “Semitized” by Akkadians, and other Semitic-speaking peoples (e.g. Amorites), in the mid to late 3rd millennium BCE, or a substratum beginning with the Middle Assyrian period, following Mitanni domination of Assur. A substratum that is best represented, in my opinion, by the R-M269 lineage, and the Hurrian/Subarian people.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 07, 2012, 09:55:14 PM
Additional support for my claim, in opposition to the suggestion that Assyrians (in particular, "Nestorians" carrying R-L23) are Armenians.  I ask that if people are going to make claims, they support them with sufficient genetic, linguistic, cultural, and other evidence.  

I do not believe many people here would appreciate the suggestion, without sufficient evidence to argue such a claim, that they were recently converted members of another ethnicity.  Look at the discussions on the various fora on the question of the "Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain," for instance.  

(by no means exhaustive)

GENETIC

1.

Quote
Variation of a VNTR in the DAT1 gene in seven ethnic groups of the Middle East was used to infer the history and affinities of these groups. The populations consisted of Assyrian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Armenian, Turkmen, and Arab peoples of Iran, Iraq, and Kuwait. Three hundred forty subjects from these seven ethnic groups were screened for DAT1. DAT1 VNTR genotyping showed 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 alleles in the samples. Analysis of these data revealed differentiation and relationship among the populations. In this region, which covers an area of 2-2.5 million km^sup 2^, the influence of geography and especially of linguistic characteristics has had potentially major effects on differentiation. Religion also has played a major role in imposing restrictions on some ethnic groups, who as a consequence have maintained their community. Overall, these ethnic groups showed greater heterogeneity compared to other populations.

The relationship probability was lowest between Assyrians and other communities. Endogamy was found to be high for this population through determination of the heterogeneity coefficient (+0,6867), Our study supports earlier findings indicating the relatively closed nature of the Assyrian community as a whole, which as a result of their religious and cultural traditions, have had little intermixture with other populations.

"Variation of DAT1 VNTR alleles and genotypes among old ethnic groups in Mesopotamia to the Oxus region"

Banoei et al., Human Biology. February 2008, v. 80, no, I, pp. 73-81.

2.

Quote
Semitic populations (Assyrians and Syrians) significantly differ from each other according to both indices.

A third feature is that the Semitic populations (Assyrians and Syrians) are very distinct from each other according to both axes. This difference supported also by other methods of comparison points out the weak genetic affinity between the two populations with different historical destinies.

When interpreting genetic results we need to take into account historical and archaeological data (e.g., in case of Assyrians and Syrians, who are Semitic speaking populations with different historical background).

PC plot from the above study: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/PC_YEPISKOPOSIAN2.jpg (http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/PC_YEPISKOPOSIAN2.jpg)

"Genetic Testing of Language Replacement Hypothesis in Southwest Asia"

Yepiskoposian et al., Iran and the Caucasus, Volume 10, Number 2, 2006, pp. 191-208(18)

3.

MDS plot: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/lash_iran.jpg (http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/lash_iran.jpg)

"Y chromosome diversity among the Iranian religious groups: A reservoir of genetic variation."

Lashgary et al.,  Ann Hum Biol. 2011 May;38(3):364-71. Epub 2011 Feb 18.

4.

Dodecad: fastIBD analysis of Afroasiatic groups (Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Berbers, Somalis, Amharas, etc.)

Dienekes:
Quote
I can't comment on all 45 clusters, so I'll just limit myself to the ones that are significantly represented among Project participants: 1. Ashkenazi, 4. Assyrian/Mandaean, 6. Somali, 7. Moroccan, 8. Algerian/Tunisian, 9. Sephardic, 10. Morocco Jews, 11. Iran/Iraq Jews, 12. Non-Jewish Ethiopians, 13. Saudi, 14. Arab #1, 15. Arab #2, 16. Egyptian

LINGUISTIC/OTHER

5.

Quote
Mandaic inherited abundantly phonetic, grammatical, and lexicographic features from Akkadian (Late Babylonian) that point to the fact that the Mandaeans’ origin cannot have been anywhere else than in Mesopotamia (Kaufman, 1974, pp. 163-64; Müller-Kessler, 2004).

In the area of loanwords, Mandaic inherited from Akkadian an abundance of termini technici concerning religion, but also many words in other areas. Despite the limitation in its attested lexicon, due to the loss of texts, Mandaic shows more Akkadian borrowings than any other Aramaic dialect. The Mandaean gnostic sect recruited from a Babylonian population, and a stock of Akkadian words had belonged to the idiom of that geographical area for some centuries. Particular borrowings in Mandaic are: priest classes, cult, divination, and magic terms: brʾyʾ < bartū “diviner,” zʾbʾ 2 “esoteric priests,” gynyʾ “sacrifice,” ʿkwrʾ < ekurru “temple,” prykʾ < parakku “altar, shrine,” pyšrʾ < pišru “dissolving of a magic bond,” ʾšp < ašāpu “to bewitch,” šʾptʾ < šiptu “incantation”; terms concerning the gnostic doctrine and cult: gynyʾ < ginû “sanctuaries,” zywʾ < zīmu “brilliance,” nʾndbyʾ < nindabû “offering,” nʾṣwrʾyʾ “watcher of secrets,” nʾṣyrwtʾ “secrecy” < niṣirtu; architectional terms: ʾngrʾ < agāru “wall,”roof,” kšwrʾ < gušūru “beam, post”; body parts: gysʾ 2 “side”; ktʾ < qātu “hand, handle,” šʾyryʾnʾ < “vein, artery”; directions of the wind, name of winds, astronomical terms: šʾrʾ <šārū “direction of the wind,” stʾnʾ < ištānu north(wind), ywniʾ 2 <ūmu 3 “storm,” tʾlyʾ < attala “eclipse."

Dr. Christa Müller-Kessler

Originally Published: July 20, 2009

6.

Quote
Additionally, Muller-Kessler and Kwasman (2000, 164 fn. 15) see a survival of an ‘‘Akkadian magical ritual concept’’ in the sequence of eating bread, drinking water, and anointing with oil found in an incantation text, which in turn parallels the Mandaean ‘‘sacraments’’ of the ritual oil, bread, and water in the baptism ritual (Drower 1937, 114).

[Theodore] bar Konay [an Assyrian from the "Nestorian" church] demonstrates a surprising familiarity with their [Mandaean] doctrine, even including a brief extract from the Great Treasure (Pognon 1898, 245–55; Kruisheer 1993–94). Although he writes shortly after the advent of Islam, he assigns their arrival in southern Mesopotamia unambiguously to the pre-Islamic period.

Mandaeism in Antiquity and the Antiquity of Mandaeism
Charles G. Haberl
Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey

Religion Compass Volume 6, Issue 5, Article first published online: 8 MAY 2012

7.

Two pages: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/manda1.jpg (http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/manda1.jpg)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/manda2.jpg (http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/manda2.jpg)


Quote
This, kneaded in the hand and baked in ashes like the fatira is a roll about 4 inches long. In a recent article ('The Kaprana' in Orient and Occident l , The Gaster Anniversary Volume, London, Taylor's Foreign Press, 1937) I have pointed out the similarity of the sa [dough] to the Nestorian [Assyrian Christian] kaprana, a dough object of identical shape which plays a part in the Qurbana, and appears to be a relic of some ancient fertility and life cult. That the sa is a phallic emblem one would suspect from its form and size. The reference which puzzled Lidzbarski (Q. 107), pihla d *l shum hiia pla, obviously refers to it.

The Christian idea of a cross with an implication of blood-sacrifice is contrary to the whole Mandaean belief; indeed, this sign was not at first associated, even by the Christians, with the instrument of Christ's passion, but was a 'life' or 'sun' symbol. In the Parsi ritual meal the sign of the cross is made over the ritual meal for the dead (JJM., p. 401), and Modi suggests that it is symbolic of the four points of the compass. This idea is corroborated by the Nestorian ritual, for the priest, as he places four wafers on the paten in the form of a cross, murmurs the words, 'From East to West, from North to South'. It probably represents the journey and return of the sun, symbolizing resurrection. (See Chap. VI, note 14.)

The 'feeding of the multitude' with five loaves and fish, by the shores of the Lake of Galilee, and the meal of Acts vi. 13, seem to record ritual meals. Tertullian mentions a ritual use of milk and honey. The Agape, or love-feast of the early Christians, is still kept up in the Nestorian Church. These feasts were so much a feature of primitive Christianity that Pliny the Younger, in his Rescript to Trajan, A.D. 104, mentions them as its chief characteristic. In the Canons of Hippolytus, the agape is a 'memorial feast for the dead'. Notice breads are common to the Sraosh baj, the Christian meal just mentioned, and the present-day Nestorian qurbana, suggesting connexion with the five intercalary days.

It is likely that the Jewish Passover meal in spite of orthodox interpretation and the text now attached to it, was originally a revivification and fertility rite. The hands stretched over the bread in witness, the word fatir applied by Iraqi Jews to the masoth. and most of the details of procedure suggest this. Moreover Jewish mention of the dead (dukhrana, hashkabd) is linked in Iraq to a ritual meal eaten in memory of the deceased. This meal must include 'wheat' (i.e. bread), 'fruits of the earth', and 'fruits of trees'.

The Nestorian dukhrana with its distribution in the church of bread and other foods and of meat by the church door, its reciting of names of the dead, and the use of the kaprana (i.e. the sa [dough] or phallus) in the qurbana, is close to Mandaean ritual in many particulars. The word dukhrana is also applied to a love-feast, or public distribution of meat which follows the dukhrana in church. In this, every member of the community shares.

Preparation of the Bread

[T]he [Mandaean] bread-maker marks the 'named' loaves, the Darun proper, with three rows of three marks :

o o o
o o o
o o o

while uttering the words 'good thoughts, good words, good deeds' 'making three marks at each recital' (JJM., p. 279). (The Nestorian marking of the loaves for sacrament with similar marks is extremely close to this. I do not know whether the 'signing' of the fafiri is allied to it; it may be.)

Habshaba. Literally, 'the-first-of-the-week'. In the spoken Syriac of the Assyrians the word is pronounced as in Mandaean Hoshabba.

Each day is governed by a planet. The day is divided into two parts of twelve, twelve day-hours and twelve night-hours. Certain melki also govern the days, and hence have a planetary character, for instance, Sunday, which is governed by Shamish, is also associated with the personified Habshaba, 7 First-Day-of-the-Week, a malka who is sometimes identified with other saviour-spirits. He 'takes purified souls in his ship to Awathur and to the World of Light. The gate of the World of Light is ajar on this day and Hoshaba (Habshaba) takes the souls by means of electricity into the midst of the world of light.'

I was told that 'Hoshaba' descends into Mataratha (Purgatories) on Sunday, returning with seven Mandaean souls to the world of light. 'The revolving wheels of light whirl more swiftly on this day, thus assisting the souls in their ascent.' The story is based on the prayer for Sunday (Q., p. 184), uqarqil sMbqh^ &c., the qarqil taken as meaning revolution of a wheel.

Writings preserved by the priests enumerate the planetary aspects not only day by day but hour by hour, so that life may be conducted successfully. To quote from one:

'The Day of Habshaba. The First Hour is of Shamish. Favourable (shapir) for building a new house, going on the road, putting on a new garment, eating bread, approaching kings and governors, drinking wine, and buying and selling. The Second Hour is of Libat (Venus). Sit in thy own city. Favourable for being with thy wife, eating new bread, riding horses, visiting physicians,' &c.

Not every hour of Sunday is good, for instance, on the sixth hour of Sunday night a traveller is likely to fall amongst thieves; for Nirigh. (Mars) governs this hour, although the general aspect of the day is sunny.

Monday (Trin Habshaba) is governed by Sin ; Tuesday (Thlatha Habshaba) by Nirigh; Wednesday (Arba Habshaba) by 'Nbu; and Thursday (Hamsha Habshaba) by Bil (Bel), also by Melka Ziwa 'from the morning of Thursday till Friday noon, when Liwet has power'.Friday (Yuma d Rahatia) is the day of Libat, and Yuma d Shafta or Saturday is the day of Kiwan. Friday afternoon and night are supposed to be unlucky and under the general influence of the King of Darkness.

As with the Mandaeans, disease, pollution, transgression against taboo, and breaking of social laws necessitated purifications received at the hands of a priest. The baru and ashipu priests of Babylonian and neo-Babylonian times, like Mandaean priests, wore white.

The Tree is a common religious symbol in Mandaean books for Divine Life, and the souls of Mandaeans are not seldom represented as birds, taking refuge in the shelter of a Vine, or Tree, against the tempests of the world.

The Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran their cults, customs, magic, legends, and folklore
Lady E. S. Drower 1937

8.

Quote
I happened to come upon another Nabatean book which contained the explanation of the story of Tammuz. He called a king to serve the Seven and the Twelve, 42 and that king killed him but he returned to life after having been killed. Then the king killed him in many horrible ways but each time he returned to life. In the end he finally died. That story was indeed identical to the last with the story of Jurjis which the Christians know. The Sabians hold a memorial feast for Tammuz which they call the memorial feast of Tammuz and the Christians hold a memorial feast for Jurjis which they call the memorial feast and tadhkira of Jurjis.

The transmission of pagan material to Christianity is often obvious. The mechanisms of this transmission are also relatively clear but I cannot refrain from mentioning here that, according to al Maqdis (Bad’ IV:42), some Christians in the vicinity of Harran had adopted Harranian doctrines (madhhab). What he probably should have said, is that some Harranians had converted – sincerely or not – to Christianity, bringing along with them much of their religious lore and wisdom. Instead of weeping for Tammuz they were now weeping for St. George.

“Continuity of Pagan Religious Traditions in Tenth-Century Iraq”
JAAKKO HÄMEEN-ANTTILA
2002

Quote
In Babylonia, the month Tammuz was established in honor of the eponymous god Tammuz, who originated as a Sumerian shepherd-god, Dumuzid or Dumuzi, the consort of Inanna and, in his Akkadian form, the parallel consort of Ishtar.

A Sumerian tablet from Nippur (Ni 4486) reads:
She can make the lament for you, my Dumuzid, the lament for you, the lament, the lamentation, reach the desert — she can make it reach the house Arali; she can make it reach Bad-tibira; she can make it reach Dul-šuba; she can make it reach the shepherding country, the sheepfold of Dumuzid "O Dumuzid of the fair-spoken mouth, of the ever kind eyes," she sobs tearfully, "O you of the fair-spoken mouth, of the ever kind eyes," she sobs tearfully. "Lad, husband, lord, sweet as the date, [...] O Dumuzid!" she sobs, she sobs tearfully.[3]

Wikipedia

9.

Quote
If we continue to review some main aspects of the book from the sacral to the secular, we next come to various rituals and regulations. There is an interesting description of New Year's Eve rituals (Nab. Agr., 538-541) which, broadly speaking, coincides with what we know of the Harrãnian pagans down to the Islamic times, albeit differing in details, so that the description cannot have been taken from any Arabic source describing the Harrãnians but must be independent of that tradition. Likewise, there are descriptions of idols and their worshiping, communal prayers, feasts, fasts, temples and the services therein, the use of cultic music, incubation and dream oracles, and various other themes. Most of these passages are relatively short and sometimes difficult to set into any context, but in general they offer much material for study. The veneration of sacred trees receives some attention, and it seems that the word “idol” may often, in fact, refer to sacred trees, which act as mediators of divine revelation. Cultic and agricultural calendars, which we also know from Syriac tradition, are discussed in the book (e.g., Nab. Agr., 207-209).

* Nabat in Arabic refers to the non-Arabic rural population of the Near East, and especially Iraq, who spoke different Aramaic dialects.

A “NEW” SOURCE FOR LATE ANTIQUE PAGANISM
Jaakko Hämeen-Anttila
2004


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 08, 2012, 02:15:31 AM
Are you the same person that was working on a paper for peer
review in the  scientific community showing the connection between Assyrian R1b and Jewish R1b?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/01/the-assyrians-and-jews-3000-years-of-common-history/


"colleague have drilled into the population history of people living in Iran and eastern Turkey who identify as descendants of ancient Assyrians, and who sent their DNA for analysis. Preliminary findings suggest their ancestors may have once mixed with local Jewish populations, "

Have you come to any conclusions if Iraqi Jews are L584- or L584+ or are they both? Or do they cluster with L943/944/945/946 Ashkenazi?

 Ashkenazi  "Group C"
R1b1a2a1b1: L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")
45475    Louis Silver    Lithuania ?

How do the R1b[L584-/L584+] differ from the L21,R1a,Q,J1,J2 people claiming Jewish ancestry?

Not to offend you, but I believe that the R1b the Armenians in Iraq and region is from the Balkans as Maliclavelli and others have said all along.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 08, 2012, 02:55:21 AM
Are you the same person that was working on a paper for peer
review in the  scientific community showing the connection between Assyrian R1b and Jewish R1b?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/01/the-assyrians-and-jews-3000-years-of-common-history/


"colleague have drilled into the population history of people living in Iran and eastern Turkey who identify as descendants of ancient Assyrians, and who sent their DNA for analysis. Preliminary findings suggest their ancestors may have once mixed with local Jewish populations, "

Have you come to any conclusions if Iraqi Jews are L584- or L584+ or are they both? Or do they cluster with L943/944/945/946 Ashkenazi?

 Ashkenazi  "Group C"
R1b1a2a1b1: L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")
45475    Louis Silver    Lithuania ?

How do the R1b[L584-/L584+] differ from the L21,R1a,Q,J1,J2 people claiming Jewish ancestry?

Not to offend you, but I believe that the R1b the Armenians in Iraq and region is from the Balkans as Maliclavelli and others have said all along.

I am not in the scientific community.  I am a Juris Doctor, and continuing grad student who volunteers his time working on FTDNA projects.  I am co-admin of the Y-DNA G, Y-DNA J1*, Aramaic, and Assyrian projects.   Yes.  I worked on that Assyrian-Jewish project with David ("Polako"), and the gentleman who goes by the name "Warwick" on the various fora.  But that was only looking at autosomal DNA.  It did not examine any possible Y chromosome links between Jews and Assyrians.  

You are not offending me.  R-L23 may be from the Balkans.  That is a possibility.  But, that does not make Assyrian R-L584 Armenian necessarily.   That was the claim made.  And that is what I was attempting to refute.   Hurrian, yes.  

Hurrian/Subarian --> Urartian + ??? ≈ Armenians of 1st millennium BCE.  
Hurrian/Subarian + various Semitic and non-Semitic elements ≈ Neo-Assyrians of 1st millennium BCE.

^^ Simply my opinion.  Nothing more.

Wikipedia:

Quote
Subartu was apparently a polity in Northern Mesopotamia, at the upper Tigris. Most scholars accept Subartu as an early name for Assyria proper on the Tigris, although there are various other theories placing it sometimes a little farther to the east, north or west of there. Its precise location has not been identified. From the point of view of the Akkadian Empire, Subartu marked the northern geographical horizon, just as Martu, Elam and Sumer marked "west", "east" and "south", respectively.

Quote
The Hurrians were a Caucasoid people, who spoke a Language isolate of the Ancient Near East who lived in Anatolia and Northern Mesopotamia during the Bronze Age.The largest and most influential partly Hurrian nation was the kingdom of Mitanni, though the Mitanni were an Indo-European speaking people who formed a ruling class over the Hurrians. The population of the Indo-European speaking Hittite Empire in Anatolia to a large part consisted of Hurrians and Hattians, and there is significant Hurrian influence in Hittite mythology. By the Early Iron Age, the Hurrians had been assimilated with other peoples, except perhaps in the kingdom of Urartu. According to I.M. Diakonoff and S. Starostin, the Hurrian, Hattic, and Urartian languages are related to the Northeast Caucasian languages.


So, you are not the fella I know from ABF?  The same fella I have been sharing (or rather was sharing) with at 23andMe?   He goes by the name "Silesian" at ABF.  


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 08, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
Of course I'm same Silesian who helped contribute towards new computer for hobby research for ABF who is sad to see many hurtful things posted between Armenian and Assyrians, which is very sad, and do not agree with.As well as many bad things about Poles/Germans/Russians/Italians/English, which I consider  to be my family and  extended family also.

Were you not trying to make a link between 30% R1b in Assyrian project and Jewish autosomal?

Do you also contribute to Ht-35 project Vince V and L584 project?

For example, "LoPiccolo" in L584, Ht-35 project by accident?

It is okay if you do not answer the difference between Iraqi Jews and Assyrian Jews.

However there are many branches, Jews belong, for example L21,V88,L584+,L584-,R1a,Q,J1,J2,E,G1,G2,I1,I2,T,L,N.







Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 08, 2012, 11:57:20 AM
Of course I'm same Silesian who helped contribute towards new computer for hobby research for ABF who is sad to see many hurtful things posted between Armenian and Assyrians, which is very sad, and do not agree with.As well as many bad things about Poles/Germans/Russians/Italians/English, which I consider  to be my family and  extended family also.

Were you not trying to make a link between 30% R1b in Assyrian project and Jewish autosomal?

Do you also contribute to Ht-35 project Vince V and L584 project?

For example, "LoPiccolo" in L584, Ht-35 project by accident?

It is okay if you do not answer the difference between Iraqi Jews and Assyrian Jews.

However there are many branches, Jews belong, for example L21,V88,L584+,L584-,R1a,Q,J1,J2,E,G1,G2,I1,I2,T,L,N.

Iraqi Jewish haplotypes are not available.  The best I can tell you about Iraqi Jewish Y-DNA is this:

Reconstruction of Patrilineages and Matrilineages of Samaritans and Other Israeli Populations From Y-Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Variation

HUMAN MUTATION 24:248-260 (2004)

N=20

T-M70: 20%
E-M78: 15%
J-M267: 15%
G-P15: 10%
J-M172: 10%
R-M269: 10%
J-M319: 5%
R-M207: 5%
R-M17: 5%
Q-M242: 5%


The Behar et al. frequencies:

N=79

PQR2 : 30%
E-M35: 16%
J(xJ2): 16%
J2: 11%
K[T]: 11%
G: 10%
R(xR1a): 4%

In addition, Mendez et al. listed Y-DNA T frequencies (N=32):

Y-DNA T

M70: 9%
P77: 13%
-----------
T = 22%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a link between the Assyrian R-L584 men and the Ashkenazi R-L584 men.  See these two gentlemen:

Assyrian - 205749: L584+, L943+
Jewish - 45475: L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")

If I have funds to test the additional SNPs, I will.  And hopefully extend testing to other Assyrian men.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not an admin of the ht35 project.  I am friends with Peter Hrechdakian, however.  We are co-admins together on the J1* project. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Teddy LoPiccolo was incorrectly classified on Adriano's sheet.  He was listed as L584+.  When in fact he was L405+ (L584-).  23andMe does not test for L584.  I asked Adriano this question, but did not receive a reply:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/ted_lo.jpg (http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/ted_lo.jpg)

The ht35 admins relied on the classification by Adriano.   Teddy posted a thread on DNA-Forums, and asked about his haplotype.  One of the members of the Assyrian project, Pera, had a few shared markers.   However, after taking a look at Adriano's sheet, I realized that the two men were not that closely related.  I sent Peter this message: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/teddy_l405.jpg (http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/teddy_l405.jpg)

That is where the story of Teddy Lopiccolo's results end for me.   Except for my post in the thread on Worldfamilies. 


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 08, 2012, 12:23:40 PM
"(or rather was sharing) with at 23andMe?"
There are not to many who enjoy the same history/subjects and genealogy.
Still sharing :) If not pm and will gladly share.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 08, 2012, 12:44:28 PM
The Lopiccolo kit was eventually placed in the correct group, so it is a non-issue.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Maliclavelli on June 08, 2012, 02:38:35 PM
The Lopiccolo kit was eventually placed in the correct group, so it is a non-issue.
These are some letters I wrote to LoPiccolo on 23andMe. Look at the dates. If acekon suspects that there are some plots, perhaps he isn’t so far from reality.


Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Nov 15, 2011
Dear Teddy, I have seen your data on the "Adriano's spreadsheet". Have you ever done an exam of the STRs?
Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Nov 15, 2011
Yes, of course it costs. Once SMGF (The Sorenson, the Mormons) did it for free, but now there is GeneTree and it costs. The best of course is FTDNA. If you follow some offer, you could do it, for instance on 37 markers, for a good price (now it is 169$. I did it for a relative of mine resulted R1b1a2a (like me) at 23andme for 119$, but we had a good exchange with the Euro. You are R1b1a2-M269, the most ancient, and it would be interesting to see your STRs. This exam permits also to find the closest to you by the paternal line, but for me it would be interesting also for another reason: I support that R1b1a2 and subclades was born in Italy and we have in South Italy but also in North Italy and Switzerland a clade with YCAII=17-23, which I retain the original.
Let me know if you can do it. Anyway I thank you for having sent your data to Adriano Squecco.
Kind Regards, Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Nov 15, 2011
I am very glad for your 67 markers test. It will be very interesting. About Maddi and the Sicilian project I can say that I knew Maddi when I wrote on Rootsweb before my banishment and I polemized frequently with him. After he shared his data with me on 23andme. Now that my wife (100% Sicilian) has joined the Sicilian project, I was asked about her 100% Sicilianity to join the project, and I didn't like it. I don't like that many (Phoenicians, Jews, etc.) had convinced Sicilians not to be "Italians". All the theories about this have wrecked, above all those of Dienekes Pontikos (actually […].). For this your R1b1a2* is very important. If it is ancient Italian I'll be right and all them wrong.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Nov 15, 2011
After your order (or, better, after your kit will be arrived to FTDNA) I think you'll have your results within a month, but why you are thinking to Trojans, Assyrians, Hittites? Certainly Assyrians and Hittites hadn't anything to do with Sicily and we are always discussing if R1b1a2 came from Asia Minor or not. My theory is that it was born in Europe, above all in Italy. Why don't you think to the ancient peoples of Sicily? And don't you mind that "Sicels" were Indo-Europeans and linked to Latins and came to Sicily from Latium?
There will be so long to reconstruct truth about Italy and Italians.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Nov 16, 2011
Teddy, I have written many thousands of letters on these arguments, also on “DNA-forums” which banned me at the end of 2008, a work of Jules Van Laar, probably a […] in that nest of […].
1) Your L584+ is that of we all. Only L584-, a back mutation, is found in Middle East and only in R1b1a2a/L23+ like me, not in your haplogroup, and demonstrates that those L23+ aren’t the ancestors of the European subclades.
2) About Trojans it is only a tale. I should be linked with them, being from Tuscany, but I have demonstrated many times that happened the other way around: are the Lemnians to derive from Tuscany and not the contrary.
3) We all will be very glad to know the Genetics of the Elymians.
4) Dienekes is a nationalist Greek who is mostly of Italian descent and denies it. I have defeated him many times. His pretension that Sicilians are mostly Greeks like J2 has been demonstrated false.
5) Jews were annihilated by Romans in two wars. Those of today, mostly the Ashkenazim, are above all Europeans, and above all Italians. They don’t like it and ban me from their forums. But I continue to write on them: […], 23andme etc. are theirs.
Do the test, and after send your results to me and I’ll say to you which is your male line.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Jan 21, 2012
Dear Teddy,
May I know them? Have you posted them to some Project or to ySearch?
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Jan 28, 2012
Teddy, I've seen what Mike wrote to you on Dna-forums: "Teddy, I recommend uploading your results into Ysearch so you can do comparisons a little more easily using the comparison queries. It's a little hard to tell much with R1b1a2 on 37 markers. Let's wait for 38-67 to come in and then we can find who the matches are".
I have already created an account with your data to study them: ySearch CAPFU. When you create an yours, I'll delete mine.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Jan 28, 2012
But of course I don't think that the answer will be in your next data. I have already responded after your 12.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Jan 28, 2012
All data are useful. If you let me know these last, I'd be very grateful to you, but if you prefer to have all this panel and post it on 23andme or Dna-forums it's good the same. But don't forget that only on Worldfamilies (and in part on 23andme) I am able to respond you.
Gioiello
P.S. Of course I have deleted my account.

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 4, 2012
But where is LoPiccolo? Before he was amongst the unclassified at the bottom of the ht 35 FTDNA project, but now he has disappeared. It’s well he is “TheLittle”, but to disappear! Oh, but he is amongst the R-L23+/L584+! Who put him there? The administrators or the administrator?
So Mangino (the Tuscan Mancini) is the unique with DYS426=12 amongst all the others 11 and with DYS578=8 amongst all the 9, and LoPiccolo is the unique with DYS426=11 amongst all the L23/L584+=12. And who did test him for L584? In the “Adriano’s spreadsheet” he was L584+ which is really -, being the + actually a back mutation. And wasn’t he also L23-? Really a great confusion. And amongst the L584+ a “Sicilian” has been added to the others, the last the Jew Silver.
Certainly when Mangino (Mancini) and LoPiccolo are put at their true place…

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 4, 2012
Mr. Lo Piccolo, let’s wait for this SNP test, but if you are L49-, like it appears on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”, you cannot be L584+: in this case L584+ would be a recurrent mutation without a meaning for the R-Tree. Your markers say that you are R-M269 like I have always said, but that Vizachero (my worst enemy) has put you amongst the R-L584+ has a meaning: to demonstrate that you aren’t an “Italian”, but a Jew and that hg.R comes from Middle East. For this I have been banned many times from some forums. Certainly your posting about Armenians in South Italy goes in this direction, but Armenians were Indo-Europeans who came from the Balkans and have nothing to do with Italy: They are a little people, killed in part by Turks, and cannot have peopled Italy, which is tenfold more peopled. Unfortunately Mr Vizachero (and probably FTDNA) makes some mistakes (willing) to demonstrate a thesis (wrong). I’ll make some Mancini (from Tuscany) linked to Mangino test by another company.

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 13, 2012
Teddy, you have written: “but I am doing a further SNP test”. Can you tell me which SNPs?
Probably L584, perhaps L23/L49.1 etc.?

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 14, 2012
Dear Teddy, this is the SNP L584 at 23andMe:
L584 R1b1a2a1b 27141305 C->T
rs9786602
27141305 rs9786602 A or C
not genotyped Francesca Guarino
C Gioiello Tognoni
not genotyped Giorgio Tognarelli
not genotyped Monica De Conti
not genotyped Silvana Vagelli
not genotyped Velthur Tognoni
As you can see only I, tested with V2, have the result. My relatives, tested with V3, are “not genotyped”. Then if you have done V3, your result hadn’t to appear on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”. You can see your result. Go to your 23andme account, click on “account” and to “Browse your raw data”, write “rs97866032” where it is written “aSNP” and push “Go”. Your result will appear.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 14, 2012
That's right. It should be so. Then you aren't L584+ and what appears on the "Adriano's Spreadsheet" is wrong, and also who put you on the "ht 35 Project" amongst the L584+, adding a Sicilian (and a presumed Sephardic) L584+ is wrong like I have said many times, i.e. Mr Vizachero. And now that the Armenians are negative, both the L584+ and the L584-, for the four SNPs found by the WTY on Silver (L943, L944, L945, L946), also the presumed origin from the "Tens Tribes Lost" of L584+ is wrecked. We will discover soon where L584+ was born.

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 14, 2012
Teddy, I typed wrongly the SNP. You should write rs9786602. Let me know.

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 15, 2012
Teddy, you can see that you are C like me, i.e. we are ancestral, i.e. L584- and not +. But if you get this result, probably you did 23andMe V2 and not V3. As you see, I was right on every assertion I did. Permit me to publish this result on 23andme and Worldfamilies. I don't publish it on Dna-forums, even though they have permitted my subscription (I am "gioiellot"), after they banned me three times. Of course my banishments were wrong and I am right on all the line.
Thank you for your collaboration.
Kind Regards and Best Wishes, Gioiello Tognoni

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Mar 5, 2012
Filandro is a very rare surname in Italy (a few persons in Calabria, Puglia, Campania, etc.). I found him on SMGF and put his data on ySearch. Unfortunately who is tested by SMGF is not findable. He matches closely also a Rodrigues, a Brazilian from Portuguese descent. For this I remained open to a foreign origin, also Jewish, but you find some close to you in Sardinia. Of course we can think to a foreign origin too, but I think that your haplotype is deeply rooted in Italy. We shall see when we’ll have more data.
The last paper on Armenians has a haplotype R-M269 with DYS390=26.



Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: A_Wode on June 08, 2012, 05:04:23 PM
Are you the same person that was working on a paper for peer
review in the  scientific community showing the connection between Assyrian R1b and Jewish R1b?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/01/the-assyrians-and-jews-3000-years-of-common-history/


"colleague have drilled into the population history of people living in Iran and eastern Turkey who identify as descendants of ancient Assyrians, and who sent their DNA for analysis. Preliminary findings suggest their ancestors may have once mixed with local Jewish populations, "

Have you come to any conclusions if Iraqi Jews are L584- or L584+ or are they both? Or do they cluster with L943/944/945/946 Ashkenazi?

 Ashkenazi  "Group C"
R1b1a2a1b1: L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")
45475    Louis Silver    Lithuania ?

How do the R1b[L584-/L584+] differ from the L21,R1a,Q,J1,J2 people claiming Jewish ancestry?

Not to offend you, but I believe that the R1b the Armenians in Iraq and region is from the Balkans as Maliclavelli and others have said all along.

I am not in the scientific community.  I am a Juris Doctor, and continuing grad student who volunteers his time working on FTDNA projects.  I am co-admin of the Y-DNA G, Y-DNA J1*, Aramaic, and Assyrian projects.   Yes.  I worked on that Assyrian-Jewish project with David ("Polako"), and the gentleman who goes by the name "Warwick" on the various fora.  But that was only looking at autosomal DNA.  It did not examine any possible Y chromosome links between Jews and Assyrians.  

You are not offending me.  R-L23 may be from the Balkans.  That is a possibility.  But, that does not make Assyrian R-L584 Armenian necessarily.   That was the claim made.  And that is what I was attempting to refute.   Hurrian, yes.  

Hurrian/Subarian --> Urartian + ??? ≈ Armenians of 1st millennium BCE.  
Hurrian/Subarian + various Semitic and non-Semitic elements ≈ Neo-Assyrians of 1st millennium BCE.

^^ Simply my opinion.  Nothing more.

This is a possibility. Keep in mind that "written works" (hint hint) and I am not terribly religious, consider a group possibly identified as Hebrews moved into what would be modern Israel sometime after 1000 BC but before the time of Rome. This is absolutely the reason why Jewish male lineages *should* be diverse, just as our modern day Indo-European speakers. I do not consider there to be a "Semitic" haplogroup, no more than I consider a single haplogroup for PIE, but I feel often racism gets in the way and the E1b1b1 guys are not given a claim to the region they are most native to - if this is the region where Proto-Semitic family was born in ~6000 BC (or whatever the leading argument is). Most here should agree that G1/G2, as well as J1/J2 are more eastern in origin, probably originating in the Caucasus or Mesopotamian region and spreading with some of the earliest civilizations.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 08, 2012, 10:19:25 PM
Quote
Hurrians  and  the  Kingdom  of Mitanni

After the death of Shamshi-Adad I in the 18th century, very little is known about the  region  of  Assyria  and  about  the  city states, such as Asshur and Nineveh, until the 14th  century  B.C. The reason for this lack of information was the chaos brought about by the  mass  migration  of  new  peoples  into  N Mesopotamia.  Chief  among  these  were  the peoples  which  founded  the  kingdom  of Mitanni. This kingdom was  centered on the Habur river,  but  in  its  heyday  its influence spread  as  far  W as  the  Taurus  mountains and as far E as Assyria. Indeed, for a time it seems  to  have  controlled  the  city-states  of Nineveh and Asshur.

Unfortunately,  very  little  information  is available  about  the  kingdom  of Mitanni. Its capital,  Washshukanni,  has  still  not  been located,  and  therefore  the  state  archives  of the  kings  of  Mitanni  have  not  been  discovered.  What  little  we  know  of  this  kingdom and  its  history  we  glean  from  foreign sources:  Assyrian,  Babylonian,  Hittite,  and Egyptian. As meager as this information is, it does allow us to realize that Mitanni was one of the greatest powers in the ancient world in the middle of the 2d millennium B.C. Its kings dealt  as  equals  with  the  Egyptian  pharaohs and Hittite monarchs.

Since Mitanni was such a great power, and controlled Assyria for a time, it is important to consider this kingdom and its  civilization in  any  discussion  of Assyrian  history.   Indeed,  the  two  ethnic  elements  evident  in the  Mitanni  kingdom,  Hurrians  and  Indo Europeans,  also  had  a  major  impact  on the region  of  Assyria  and  thus require  detailed consideration.  The  term  Indo-European refers basically to a large family of languages, among  which  are  modern  English,  French, and  German.  Ancient  languages  included within  this  group  are  Latin,  Greek,  Hittite, and  Sanskrit. The Hurrian language, on the other hand, has not been identified with any known family of languages. Certainly it is neither  Indo-European  nor Semitic. The Hurrians themselves entered Mesopotamia by way of  the  Caucasus from the steppes of  central Asia.  Evidence  of  their  presence  in Mesopotamia,  which  is  supplied  from  personal  names,  goes back at least as far as the Third  Dynasty  of  Ur  (ca. 2000 B.C.).  At  this early date, they were in the east Tigris region, and for the next few centuries there is no evidence they spread beyond this area. Toward the  middle  of  the  2d millennium,  however, they began to move out, and eventually Hurrians  were  spread  over  most  of  the  Fertile  Crescent,  their  presence  being  evident  in Assyria,  Syria,  Anatolia,  and  Palestine.  In Assyria, the site which provides most of our evidence  for  a  strong  Hurrian  presence  is Nuzi.

The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. 1996


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 09, 2012, 02:37:29 AM
Also Assyrian conversions, which predated Khazars.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8358-izates

How much of the population converted?When Kings and Queens convert, we can safely say that many population also converted perhaps using Constantine as an example .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_and_Christianity


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 09, 2012, 11:56:53 AM
Assyrians.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 09, 2012, 12:21:04 PM
VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 09, 2012, 12:27:33 PM
VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

vincent@vizachero.com , Group Administrator


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 09, 2012, 01:12:01 PM
VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

vincent@vizachero.com , Group Administrator

In some surname groups, there are still administrators listed that passed away years ago. Like I said, VV has not been involved in the last couple of years.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 09, 2012, 02:05:50 PM
I sincerely doubt West Asian R1b is from the Balkans.The lack of other Balkan lineages and Northern European autosomal components in West Asia is quite telling. That is a lot of wishful thinking and speculation that R1b comes from Hitties and etc. Especially when you find R1b in iran where Hitties have nothing to do with anything.

Also Humanist, Hurrians did not come from the steepes of Central Asia. That sounds ridiculous. This would require them to be present before Indo-Iranians or co-existing with them. This would mean at least one of the BMAC, keltiminar and Botai cultures would have been Hurrian speaking. Also Central Asian and Assyrian/Armenians share very little in terms of ydna besides J2a/G2a. Does that sound likely to you? On the other hand if that was the case it would nicely explain the Gedrosia component btw.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 09, 2012, 03:27:02 PM
VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

vincent@vizachero.com , Group Administrator

In some surname groups, there are still administrators listed that passed away years ago. Like I said, VV has not been involved in the last couple of years.

Somebody can take time to change LoPiccolo to correct category but not give proper information for group administrator for many years?

What else is in closet?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 09, 2012, 06:04:03 PM
VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

vincent@vizachero.com , Group Administrator

In some surname groups, there are still administrators listed that passed away years ago. Like I said, VV has not been involved in the last couple of years.

Somebody can take time to change LoPiccolo to correct category but not give proper information for group administrator for many years?

What else is in closet?

I asked Peter Hrechdakian to place LoPiccolo in the right group right after the SNP results came in and he did so within an hour.

Life is too short to be worried about conspiracies and closets and talking about people who have not been involved in the hobby in two years.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on June 09, 2012, 08:41:37 PM

Yes of course you are right. You might want to ask are dear friend Humanist who worked on the Assyrian-Jewish project with "David" about where "David" places the origins of R1b, you might be surprised, [if the map still exists!]

I do not recall.  Would you please remind me?  

And, why are you referring to me as "our dear friend Humanist?"  I have been nothing but friendly with you.  

You might also inquire of our dear friend Humanist and his other friend who claims he is Assyrian from ABF about the theory of African/Asian language, which  shows Irish and Italian people connected from Afro-Asian language but not Basque, and that this can be perhaps linked with R1b; you can ask Humanist, these questions.

I believe there may be a link between Assyrians (or rather, northern Middle Easterners) and Atlantic/Med populations.  Certainly.  But, I have never opined on Elias' theories regarding an Afro-Asiatic substratum in insular Celtic.   Anyone who has read a good many ABF threads would know quite well that Elias and I disagree on many things.  Including the origin of Semitic languages.  I believe Semitic languages were intrusive in the northeastern Middle East.  It is likely that at least Caucasian/Hurrian languages and Sumerian were spoken in what became Assyria (N Iraq), before the arrival of Akkadians and other Semitic-speaking people.  

This is why I ask our dear friend Humanist [Assyrian specialist]which group belongs to L584.

You know as much as I do.  Please refer to the ht35 project.  Members of the R-L584 category include individuals from the following groups: Armenians, Ashkenazi Jews, an Alevi from Turkey, Assyrians, and possibly one Iranian man from Khuzestan on 23andMe (L405-).  The Iranian gentleman from 23andMe was offered a free 67 marker FTDNA test.  He never replied.  

I also question Dienekes, about K12- K7 run.Showing autosomal /Yemeni Jew/Basque in one run but not another.
 
"Southern" component in comparison to "West Asian" has netted two entirely different results, by region and group isolates.

k12b versus k7b

"Southern"-"South West Asian" components, conflicting results.

"k7b" "Southern/Saudi" component;

1]Finnish_D-[0.0%]

2]French Basque-[26.8%]

3]Yemeni Jews/Saudi -[63.4%-64.8%]


"k12b" "Southwest Asian" component;

1]Finnish_D-[2.6%]

2]French Basque-[0.0%]

3]Yemeni Jews/Saudi-[53.8%-67.7%]

So also autosomal amongst Assyrian might also be in question perhaps depending on who does test.

I would kindly ask that you direct that question to Dienekes.  He does not believe we have any connection to the Assyrians.  He believes we are basically former Armenians.

Quote
Dienekes: All indications are that the modern Neo-Aramaic speakers (who should not be confused with the historical Assyrians, even though they share the same name) are basically Armenians that are shifted slightly in an Iranian direction...

If you wish to discuss matters with me related to Assyrian genetics, you can find me at ABF.  Although I cannot promise I will be there often over the next several weeks.  Academic commitments.  


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 09, 2012, 09:11:36 PM
VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

vincent@vizachero.com , Group Administrator

In some surname groups, there are still administrators listed that passed away years ago. Like I said, VV has not been involved in the last couple of years.

Somebody can take time to change LoPiccolo to correct category but not give proper information for group administrator for many years?

What else is in closet?

I asked Peter Hrechdakian to place LoPiccolo in the right group right after the SNP results came in and he did so within an hour.

Life is too short to be worried about conspiracies and closets and talking about people who have not been involved in the hobby in two years.


Well it cuts both ways right?

Not everyone alerted P.H. only yourself and Humanist,Maliclavelli.
It is very unlikely Lopiccolo would know what questions to ask about his str's/snps/ L584 placement.
Even if he did know what to ask, what use would it have been to inactive admin/email?
.
No conspiracies. Just some simple answers and correct information.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 09, 2012, 09:23:13 PM
yg


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 19, 2012, 01:39:12 PM
@InterestedInhistory
 
1]You have had your post deleted.
2]You follow the work of one who calls himself "Polako"
3]You use foul language.
4]You use scorn and or derision against posters.
5]You accuse posters of trolling.
 
Many of the posters here are quality posters who I have seen put down on other forums, perhaps you are aware of this, perhaps not.

However when somebody provides evidence that is not to your liking you become very irritated.

"I think you should learn to speak and write english properly, stop spreading nationalistic bullshit before falsely assuming things about other people's ancestry and heritage"


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: intrestedinhistory on June 21, 2012, 08:35:02 PM
@InterestedInhistory
 
1]You have had your post deleted.
2]You follow the work of one who calls himself "Polako"
3]You use foul language.
4]You use scorn and or derision against posters.
5]You accuse posters of trolling.
 
Many of the posters here are quality posters who I have seen put down on other forums, perhaps you are aware of this, perhaps not.

However when somebody provides evidence that is not to your liking you become very irritated.

"I think you should learn to speak and write english properly, stop spreading nationalistic bullshit before falsely assuming things about other people's ancestry and heritage"

Blah blah. Don't bring your hatred for Polako into this. I certainly don't "follow" his work.If you have an issue with him go take it up with him. I disagree with him about some things and agree with him about some things like with most people.

I said that comment to a guy tho thinks R1b and R1a are Western European and said IE is Central European.  Where is the evidence for any of this? Please tell me. Evidence not to my liking? So these are accepted facts? Or are you just making garbage up again? Why the hate ? Isn't that what you hate Polako for? His arguments about IE yet here was somebody else who said IE was Central European and you are getting mad for me calling someone out on it. When others say IE is Central European it is ok but when Polako says it he is wrong for saying it. Get over your hate for somebody else and stop talking it out on me. You are a hypocrite of the utmost order. You had a post deleted as well. Big deal.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on June 22, 2012, 01:41:28 AM
LOL

I deleted my own post. I have no issues or hate for Polako, I actually like him, and would help him anytime, something I doubt you would do. I'm probably more closely related to him indirectly than you; I do plot with Poles btw. I would stand up for Polako just as I would for JeanM and many of the good posters on this forum because they actually contribute good ideas. Everyone is entitled to conjecture and or postulate, that is how ideas can grow, no matter how weird they are. However when a disingenuous poster like yourself comes along that is another matter. Although other posters have commented on your disposition, the blatant disrespect you have pretty much speaks for itself.

 
Here is some  more "Blah blah" for you to suck on. I just ran my 23andme top 6 list the other day. Please tell me why I would not be proud to be associated with Polako and R1a if they take such a prominent position in my ancestry?

Using the google docs technique my top 6 out of 117_Polish-German

1)R1a1a-23
2)R1a1a*-9
3)I*-9
4)R1b1b2a1a1*-8-[U106?]
5)R1b1b2a1a2f*-7[L21/S145?]
6)R1b1b2a1a1d1*-5[L47+/L44-?]
6)R1b1b2a-5[L150/L23/L584+/-?]

Any way this is a Assyrian thread and the closest I'm to Assyrians is L150+L584-.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on August 05, 2012, 12:10:16 PM
R1b in the following locations in study,comparing language in the following communities, Talysh/Avesta Gilaki, Lur and Assyrian.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

Avestan-is an East Iranian language known only from its use as the language of Zoroastrian scripture.

Talysh close in region to Gilaki, Lur and Assyrian communities.

I do not know how reliable this video is however some interesting word comparisons between Talysh and Aveston.

"The Talysh and Avestan language" 30 seconds into video, is a list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_94dqXFvEs

Talysh-Bra/Avesta-Bratar/German- Bruder/English-Brother
Talysh-Marde/Avesta-Mor/Old French- Mort/Latin-Mortuus[Mor]-English- Die
Talysh-Asp/Avesta-Aspa/Sanskrit-Aszwa/Lithuanian-Asva/English-Horse
Talysh-Ma/Avesta-Matar/Latin-Mater/Greek-Meter/Sanskrit-Matar/German- Mutter
Talysh-Nom/Avesta-Naman/English-Name
Talysh-Penc/Avesta-Pancan/Punjabi-Punj/Engilsh- Five
Talsyh-Hast/Avest-Astan/Punjabi-Aatdh/German-Acht/English-Eight
Talysh-Nav/Avesta-Navan/Punjabi-Naun/German-Neun/English-Nine





Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on August 06, 2012, 09:44:26 AM
The Assyrian modal (R-L584) appears more closely related to modal haplotypes in the west (e.g. Alawites), rather than NW Iran.

Furthermore, if you wish to learn about our language, I would recommend you refer to the opinions of learned individuals, such as those at the North Eastern Neo-Aramaic Database Project, University of Cambridge.  It is led by Dr. Geoffrey Khan.

Bits from Cambridge Professor Geoffrey Khan's lecture at Northwestern University, from May 2012, on the Assyrian-Aramaic vernacular of today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9kpOHmt4Pg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9kpOHmt4Pg)


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 06, 2012, 10:11:09 AM
The Assyrian modal (R-L584) appears more closely related to modal haplotypes in the west (e.g. Alawites), rather than NW Iran....

How do we know if this similarity in modals indicates the R1b-L584 people are more closely related to western R1b (L11) people or if this is just random convergence? Maybe we can't tell, but do you have any clues?


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: acekon on August 06, 2012, 11:28:24 AM
IMO it is very difficult to assign L584 to any group. The former Assyrian language/region, are also homelands of older or similar age groups. For example, the borders were in flux,and as Dr. Geoffrey Khan points out bilinguilism was practiced.

Akkadian-Afroasiatic
Sumerian-Isolate
Aramaic-Afroasiatic
Mede-Indo-European/Indo-Iranian
Avestan-Indo-European/Indo-Iranian
Armenian-Indo-European

All areas with potential for L584.


Title: Re: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
Post by: Humanist on November 06, 2012, 09:33:07 PM
A Sealed Double Cremation at Middle Assyrian Tell Sabi Abyad, Syria

Peter Akkermans & E. Smits (2008)

In: D. Bonatz, R.M. Czichon & F.J. Kreppner (eds.) Fundstellen – Gesammelte Schriften zur Archäologie und Geschichte Altvorderasiens ad honorem Hartmut Kühne. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag (2008), pp. 251-261.

Quote
Recent excavation at Tell Sabi Abyad in Syria has exposed a very substantial part of a Middle Assyrian fortified farmstead or dunnu, dated ca. 1225-1120 BCE. From its foundation early in the reign of Tukulti-Ninurta I, the dunnu was maintained by a number of high-ranking officials affiliated with the Assyrian royal house and each bearing the titles of “grand vizier” and “king of Ḫanigalbat”: successively, Aššur-iddin, Šulmānu-mušabši and Ilī-padâ.

An extraordinarily rich cremation which dates somewhere between 1180-1140 BCE (building level 4) and which must be associated with the local administration at the site. So far, 38 graves have been uncovered in the dunnu at Tell Sabi Abyad, of which 29 were inhumations and nine were cremations.

The cylinder-seal impression* on the obverse of the sealing shows a galloping, winged horse followed by a foal (fig. 1), produced in the typical Middle Assyrian iconographic style of the 12th century BCE (see e.g. Matthews 1990, 1992).

Special attention is drawn to the presence of the (burnt) third phalange of a lion, which points to the inclusion of a lion-skin cloak on the funeral pyre. The dead may either have rested upon the skin or it may have covered them as a shroud. This find recalls the occurrence of bear claws in Neolithic cremation graves in northwestern Europe (see e.g. Parker Pearson 1999: 7; Smits 2000).

The richness of finds in this grave is remarkable, when taking into account that almost all other cremations at Tell Sabi Abyad contained either simply a small number of beads or no goods at all (there is only one other cremation with a comparable inventory; cf. Akkermans/Wiggermann, in print). Before it was stated that this cremation contained the burnt remains of two young adults – a man and a woman. Both persons must have died at more or less the same time and both were subsequently cremated and buried together. In view of their sex and age, it is tempting to consider them as spouses, tied to each other both in the terrestrial world and in the hereafter. Although the dead remain unknown to us, they undeniably must have been people of status and wealth. Moreover, the clay sealing with its typical Middle Assyrian representation suggests that they (or their mourners who carried out the burial) were affiliated with the Assyrian administration at Tell Sabi Abyad. Further proof in this respect is provided by the location of the grave in the immediate vicinity of the buildings of the living – it is unlikely that any outsiders to the local community were allowed to bury their dead here. The burial vessel, too, is entirely of Middle Assyrian style and origin in terms of shape and finish, as is the jewellery found in it (see e.g. Ohuma/Numoto 2001). In short, there can be no doubt that both the dead and their mourners were part of the local community at Tell Sabi Abyad, the more so if we take into account the sheer magnitude and obvious visibility of the practice of cremation: The burning and burial were not individual acts but involved the entire community. Somewhere on the site there must have been a large funeral pyre, on which the deceased were placed together, fully dressed and equipped with adornments and covered by a lion-skin cloak. A ram was slaughtered for the occasion and its meat was consumed by the mourners either shortly before or during the fire; the remains were thrown into the flames. After the corpses had been burnt, the remains selected for burial from the surface of the extinguished pyre were stored in an urn which was subsequently covered and sealed and finally buried in a specific area very close to the houses of the living.

* "Fig. 1...[R]econstruction of the seal impression."

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/middle_assyrian_cremation_seal_reconstruction_.jpg (http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/middle_assyrian_cremation_seal_reconstruction_.jpg)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fortress of Ili-pada.
Middle Assyrian architecture at Tell Sabi Abyad, Syria
Peter M.M.G. Akkermans (2006)

In: P. Butterlin, M. Lebeau, J.-Y. Monchambert, J. Montero & B. Muller (eds.), Les espaces Syro-Mésopotamiens. Dimensions de l’expérience humaine au Proche-Orient ancien. Turnhout: Brepols (2006), pp. 201-211.

Quote
The fortress had many faces...: it was a military outpost on the western frontier of Assyria; it was an administrative center in control of the westernmost province of the kingdom; and it provided custom facilities on the route from Carchemish to the Assyrian capital of Assur.

However, it was not only the interests of the Assyrian state but also the private interests of the Assyrian officials themselves that were served at Sabi Abyad. For much of its lifetime, the fortress was in the hands of Ili-pada*, grand vizier of Assyria, viceroy of Hanigalbat, member of one of the most prominent lineages of Assyria, and related to the royal family. The stronghold was Ili-pada's rural estate, used by him for the agricultural exploitation of many dozens of square kilometres in the Balikh valley and elsewhere. The occurrence of texts belonging to Assur-iddin, Ili-pada's father and likewise grand vizier, suggests that the estate had been family property for a long time; it may have served as the family's power base in the province, which presented them with the revenues to finance their private court in the capital and to support their political ambitions.

*

Wikipedia :

Quote
Two of his [Ili-pada] sons were to follow him in attaining high office. Mardukija became governor of Katmuḫi and served his term as limmu early, during the reign of Aššur-dan I, his nephew and Ilī-padâ’s grandson. Ninurta-apal-Ekur, after a period stationed in Babylonia, presumably on official business, was to triumph in his campaign to succeed Enlil-kudurri-usur as Assyrian King, thereby establishing a royal line that endured until at least the eighth century.

The Assyrian King's list, beginning with Ili-pada's son, mentioned above:

Ninurta-apal-Ekur (1182 BCE to 1180 BCE) --> Ashur-dan I --> Ninurta-tukultī-Aššur --> Mutakkil-Nusku --> Ashur-resh-ishi I --> Tiglath-Pileser I --> Asharid-apal-Ekur --> Assur-bel-kala --> Eriba-Adad II --> Shamshi-Adad IV --> Ashurnasirpal I --> Shalmaneser II --> Ashur-nirari IV --> Ashur-rabi II --> Ashur-resh-ishi II --> Tiglath-Pileser II --> Ashur-dan II --> Adad-nirari II --> Tukulti-Ninurta II --> Ashurnasirpal II --> Shalmaneser III --> Shamshi-Adad V --> Adad-nirari III --> Shalmaneser IV --> Ashur-dan III --> Ashur-nirari V (755 BCE to 745 BCE). The line is broken by Tiglath-Pileser III.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Archaeology of Death and Burial (1999)
by Mike Parker Pearson

page 7

I do not know why the author in the Assyrian Cremations article is referring to the European bear claws as Neolithic. Unless it is the "Smits" source one must refer to.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/pearson_cremation_.jpg (http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/pearson_cremation_.jpg)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps of no connection:

Wikipedia on Hercules:

Quote
To kill the Nemean lion
The Nemean lion was a large ferocious monster with a hide that could not be pierced by any weapon.[5] This made it near impossible to kill, but Hercules managed to strangle the monster with his bare hands, using his unusual strength. After he had strangled the lion, he used one of its claws to skin the monster and he wore the hide, which retained its magical properties, until his death.


Please Note: Mentioning similarities does not necessarily equate to an east to west transmission.


A bit of truth in the myths of old? 

Source: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu

Herodotus, The Histories
A. D. Godley, Ed.

1.7

Quote
Now the sovereign power that belonged to the descendants of Heracles fell to the family of Croesus, called the Mermnadae, in the following way.  Candaules, whom the Greeks call Myrsilus, was the ruler of Sardis; he was descended from Alcaeus, son of Heracles; Agron son of Ninus, son of Belus, son of Alcaeus, was the first Heraclid king of Sardis and Candaules son of Myrsus was the last.  The kings of this country before Agron were descendants of Lydus, son of Atys, from whom this whole Lydian district got its name; before that it was called the land of the Meii.  The Heraclidae, descendants of Heracles and a female slave of Iardanus, received the sovereignty from these and held it, because of an oracle; and they ruled for twenty-two generations, or five hundred and five years, son succeeding father, down to Candaules son of Myrsus.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: http://www.maicar.com/GML/HERACLIDES.html

Agron 2. Agron 2 is said to be the first of the HERACLIDES to become king of Sardes (Lydia) (see also Croesus). He is son of Ninus, the Assyrian who founded Nineveh. Ninus was son of Belus 3, son of Alcaeus 6, son of Heracles 1 and Omphale (Hdt.1.7).

Belus 3. Son of Alcaeus 6, son of Heracles 1 & Omphale. Belus 3, who is counted among the HERACLIDES, is also called father of Ninus, the founder of Nineveh and husband of Semiramis (see also Croesus) (Hdt.1.7).

Ninus. Son of Belus 3. Father of Agron 2. King of Assyria and founder of Nineveh. He was murdered by his wife Semiramis, founder and Queen of Babylonia (see also Croesus) (Dio.2.7.1; Hdt.1.7; Hyg.Fab.240; Ov.Met.4.88; Strab.2.1.31).


Clash of the Gods: Hercules
http://youtu.be/NiijdeuvJhE (http://youtu.be/NiijdeuvJhE)