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Title: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on June 01, 2010, 05:09:37 PM
I know that this forum is largely confined to people who are interested in L21, but here is some news which some may find interesting.

I was informed yesterday by Dr. Jim Wilson of EA that they have confirmed the presence of a new SNP under P312 in a second member of Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] cluster.

This was first found in Smith (Ysearch NXMWE) last year by 23andme and denominated as L238 (ChrY 19712831). Now EA has found it in a second member of the cluster, Eriksson of Sweden (Ysearch 29TRV). Eriksson and Smith are a GD of 9 at 67 markers. Both had previously tested P312* at FTDNA.

What is yet to be determined is whether the new SNP is limited to the Norse cluster, or consitutes a wider group.  More testing of P312* people will be necessary to dtermine how wide or narrow a group it represents.

EA is now offering testing for it under their designation of S182. FTDNA does not offer testing for it at present.

Nordtvedt identified the cluster by datamining the SMGF database, which includes many LDS of Scandinavian ancestry, far more than can be found at Ysearch. He said he believes the cluster represents an early entry into coasts of Norway and Denmark, and spread inland from there. He also said it can be found across Scandinavia, including Sweden.

It is possible of course that this may have been the same movement which brought L21 to Scandinavia. I will leave speculation about whether this was associated with the Beaker presence there to others.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 01, 2010, 05:56:49 PM
... I was informed yesterday by Dr. Jim Wilson of EA that they have confirmed the presence of a new SNP under P312 in a second member of Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] cluster.
...  L238 (ChrY 19712831). ..
Wow, great news.  We need P312* whittled away into all of its proper subclades.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: Jean M on June 01, 2010, 06:43:01 PM
Excellent news!

Quote
I will leave speculation about whether this was associated with the Beaker presence there to others.

 "an early entry into coasts of Norway and Denmark" would fit Bell Beaker as you know.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: Jdean on June 01, 2010, 06:54:53 PM
Fingers tightly crossed here.

Goldenhind, are you considering testing for this or are you going to wait and see how it pans out?


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on June 01, 2010, 07:08:45 PM
Great news!


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: vtilroe on June 01, 2010, 09:36:46 PM
goldenhind,

Thanks for being persistent, and insistent!  Hopefully this will pay off!


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: NealtheRed on June 01, 2010, 11:02:57 PM
goldenhind,

Thanks for being persistent, and insistent!  Hopefully this will pay off!

I agree; persistence does pay off! Thanks for the update, GoldenHind.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on June 02, 2010, 09:03:56 PM
Thanks. I came close to giving up several times when I just couldn't find anyone interested in looking into this. Fortunately I finally found a sympathetic ear in Dr. Wilson at EA, and he was willing to invest the time and expense to order the primers and set up testing to discover if the possibility might pan out. They are now launching a promotion for testing for the new SNP.

As Dr. Wilson pointed out, there is no way of knowing whether S182/L238 will be limited to just members of the cluster, or will define a much larger group. It might be like the U'Neill cluster's relation to L21. The only way to answer the question is for people who are P312* but outside the cluster to test for it.  So I have ordered it, even though I am in no way a good match to the cluster. The only two off modals for it that I match are 441 (an SMGF marker) and 446. I'm not optimistic, but we'll see what happens. I do hope other P312* will order it as well, especially if they already have a sample at EA. For those who do, the cost is only $39.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on June 03, 2010, 07:23:57 AM
Thanks. I came close to giving up several times when I just couldn't find anyone interested in looking into this. Fortunately I finally found a sympathetic ear in Dr. Wilson at EA, and he was willing to invest the time and expense to order the primers and set up testing to discover if the possibility might pan out. They are now launching a promotion for testing for the new SNP.

As Dr. Wilson pointed out, there is no way of knowing whether S182/L238 will be limited to just members of the cluster, or will define a much larger group. It might be like the U'Neill cluster's relation to L21. The only way to answer the question is for people who are P312* but outside the cluster to test for it.  So I have ordered it, even though I am in no way a good match to the cluster. The only two off modals for it that I match are 441 (an SMGF marker) and 446. I'm not optimistic, but we'll see what happens. I do hope other P312* will order it as well, especially if they already have a sample at EA. For those who do, the cost is only $39.

Hopefully this will stir FTDNA to action, and they will start testing for it, too. That is probably the only way we'll get really extensive sampling.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on June 03, 2010, 02:20:33 PM
I suspect you're right. FTDNA missed the boat on this, as I contacted them first.

Incidentally both persons found to be positive for this new SNP are members of the P312 and subclades project. I don't know if you want to start a new subsection, or if you want to wait a while and see who else might test positive.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on June 03, 2010, 08:06:58 PM
I suspect you're right. FTDNA missed the boat on this, as I contacted them first.

Incidentally both persons found to be positive for this new SNP are members of the P312 and subclades project. I don't know if you want to start a new subsection, or if you want to wait a while and see who else might test positive.

I think I will wait for a couple more positives.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 04, 2010, 10:46:39 AM
Its one of my main disappointments about the WTY project that S116* has not been broken into 2 or 3 major divisions that occurred not too long after S116 i.e. parallel SNPs to L21.  I think its going to be hard to understand L21 and indeed the R1b1b2 story without getting a better handle on S116*.  Not even the N-S has an SNP to date.  S116* must be hiding clades that are parallel to L21 and U152.  It would be great if the new SNP really splits the group and is not just some local historic period one.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 04, 2010, 10:49:33 AM
Thanks. I came close to giving up several times when I just couldn't find anyone interested in looking into this. Fortunately I finally found a sympathetic ear in Dr. Wilson at EA, and he was willing to invest the time and expense to order the primers and set up testing to discover if the possibility might pan out. They are now launching a promotion for testing for the new SNP.

As Dr. Wilson pointed out, there is no way of knowing whether S182/L238 will be limited to just members of the cluster, or will define a much larger group. It might be like the U'Neill cluster's relation to L21. The only way to answer the question is for people who are P312* but outside the cluster to test for it.  So I have ordered it, even though I am in no way a good match to the cluster. The only two off modals for it that I match are 441 (an SMGF marker) and 446. I'm not optimistic, but we'll see what happens. I do hope other P312* will order it as well, especially if they already have a sample at EA. For those who do, the cost is only $39.

I would imagine try to get at least one from each know S116* cluster i.e. North-South as the cheapest way of getting some idea.  Not sure how many strong STR clusters have been identified within S116*.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 04, 2010, 11:26:22 AM
Its one of my main disappointments about the WTY project that S116* has not been broken into 2 or 3 major divisions that occurred not too long after S116 i.e. parallel SNPs to L21.  I think its going to be hard to understand L21 and indeed the R1b1b2 story without getting a better handle on S116*.  Not even the N-S has an SNP to date.  S116* must be hiding clades that are parallel to L21 and U152.  It would be great if the new SNP really splits the group and is not just some local historic period one.
I agree with you, but now that I understand who WTY works I can see how important it is for P312*/S116* folks to get as many people tested to 67 markers as possible.   Then they can better identify more clusters beyond the N-S cluster.   Each cluster should then have a representative in the WTY project........  still the WTY runs only get a small portion of the Y chromosome.  There is much to be discovered.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on March 30, 2011, 11:18:42 PM
Some months ago FTDNA finally started testing for L238, and there were a substantial numbers of orders for it. A few results- all negaitive- came in right away, but then FTDNA apparently turned their attention to other things. However today the first two positive results came in. They are:

Östensson (Sweden) Y9VDV
Auke (Norway) X5VJU

The two previously known positive results from 23andme and EA are:

Larsson (Sweden) 29TRV
Smith (England) NMXWE

Note: These are the ancestral names and Ysearch IDs.

These individuals are a sufficient GD apart to establish this is not a private SNP.
I believe this distinctly Scandinavian subclade of P312/S116 has finally been established beyond doubt, and I hope it will be added to the R1b tree soon.

There are still a fairly large number of orders to be processed, but at this point it looks as if the subclade will pretty much be limited to those who are fairly close matches to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] cluster, which, according to Ken, are concentrated in Norway but found throughout Scandinavia.




Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: OConnor on March 31, 2011, 10:15:18 AM
another L21 Brother ? ;)

where's the Cigars?


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2011, 01:30:25 PM
Some months ago FTDNA finally started testing for L238, and there were a substantial numbers of orders for it. A few results- all negaitive- came in right away, but then FTDNA apparently turned their attention to other things. However today the first two positive results came in. They are:

Östensson (Sweden) Y9VDV
Auke (Norway) X5VJU

The two previously known positive results from 23andme and EA are:

Larsson (Sweden) 29TRV
Smith (England) NMXWE

Note: These are the ancestral names and Ysearch IDs.

These individuals are a sufficient GD apart to establish this is not a private SNP.
I believe this distinctly Scandinavian subclade of P312/S116 has finally been established beyond doubt, and I hope it will be added to the R1b tree soon.

There are still a fairly large number of orders to be processed, but at this point it looks as if the subclade will pretty much be limited to those who are fairly close matches to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] cluster, which, according to Ken, are concentrated in Norway but found throughout Scandinavia.

Another new L238+ result has come in: another Swede, Swanson (ancestral surname Quillander) from Vimmerby in southern Sweden.

Time to create a new subcategory, I guess.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
Some months ago FTDNA finally started testing for L238, and there were a substantial numbers of orders for it. A few results- all negaitive- came in right away, but then FTDNA apparently turned their attention to other things. However today the first two positive results came in. They are:

Östensson (Sweden) Y9VDV
Auke (Norway) X5VJU

The two previously known positive results from 23andme and EA are:

Larsson (Sweden) 29TRV
Smith (England) NMXWE

Note: These are the ancestral names and Ysearch IDs.

These individuals are a sufficient GD apart to establish this is not a private SNP.
I believe this distinctly Scandinavian subclade of P312/S116 has finally been established beyond doubt, and I hope it will be added to the R1b tree soon.

There are still a fairly large number of orders to be processed, but at this point it looks as if the subclade will pretty much be limited to those who are fairly close matches to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] cluster, which, according to Ken, are concentrated in Norway but found throughout Scandinavia.

Robert,

I created a new subcategory for R-L238 and have the Scandinavians safetly nestled therein. But I can't find the lone Englishman, Smith, in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

I tried running that Ysearch number, but all I got was an "Invalid Number" reply.

Can you direct me to him?

The two other Smiths in the R-P312* England category aren't showing an L238+ result.

Congrats on spotting this new subclade. Looks like an actual Scandinavian subclade of P312.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2011, 01:49:16 PM
Oops! I see now that you mentioned that Smith and Larsson were 23andMe and EA guys.

I don't have Larsson either.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2011, 01:58:15 PM
Okay, I found Larsson. Lol.

He's in the R-L238 category now.

I just need Smith, who should be glad to know he's probably the descendant of a viking.

:-o


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2011, 02:15:53 PM
All right, I found Smith, too. He was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

So now I have all of the known R-L238 guys safely tucked away in the R-L238 category. Thus far, four Scandinavians and one Englishman.

Thanks, Robert.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on April 09, 2011, 03:14:57 PM
All right, I found Smith, too. He was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

So now I have all of the known R-L238 guys safely tucked away in the R-L238 category. Thus far, four Scandinavians and one Englishman.

Thanks, Robert.

Rich, sorry but I had a typo in Smith's Y search number. It's NXMWE. Sometimes I think I have late onset dyslexia, as I find myself doing this sort of thing more and more these days. Part of the confusion is no doubt due to the fact that the current  surnames of the four Scandinavians are different from the ancestral ones. This comes from the former practice there where surnames changed with every generation.

So far everyone who has tested positive is a very close match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] modal, and those who have tested negative are not. I was able to predict that  Östensson, Auke and Quillander would get positive results by comparing their haplotypes to Nordtvedt's cluster modal. According to Ken, this cluster is most common in Norway, but is found in Sweden and Denmark as well. As far as I can tell, only one Norwegian has ordered it so far, and he was positive. There are other people in the P312 subclades project who would almost certainly test positive, if they would just order the test.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 09, 2011, 06:58:20 PM
All right, I found Smith, too. He was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

So now I have all of the known R-L238 guys safely tucked away in the R-L238 category. Thus far, four Scandinavians and one Englishman.

Thanks, Robert.

Rich, sorry but I had a typo in Smith's Y search number. It's NXMWE. Sometimes I think I have late onset dyslexia, as I find myself doing this sort of thing more and more these days. Part of the confusion is no doubt due to the fact that the current  surnames of the four Scandinavians are different from the ancestral ones. This comes from the former practice there where surnames changed with every generation.

So far everyone who has tested positive is a very close match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] modal, and those who have tested negative are not. I was able to predict that  Östensson, Auke and Quillander would get positive results by comparing their haplotypes to Nordtvedt's cluster modal. According to Ken, this cluster is most common in Norway, but is found in Sweden and Denmark as well. As far as I can tell, only one Norwegian has ordered it so far, and he was positive. There are other people in the P312 subclades project who would almost certainly test positive, if they would just order the test.

Thank you for giving this transparency, GoldenHind! This is great news for P312*- Norse fellows.

We appreciate it!


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2011, 06:26:33 PM
All right, I found Smith, too. He was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

So now I have all of the known R-L238 guys safely tucked away in the R-L238 category. Thus far, four Scandinavians and one Englishman.

Thanks, Robert.

Rich, sorry but I had a typo in Smith's Y search number. It's NXMWE. Sometimes I think I have late onset dyslexia, as I find myself doing this sort of thing more and more these days. Part of the confusion is no doubt due to the fact that the current  surnames of the four Scandinavians are different from the ancestral ones. This comes from the former practice there where surnames changed with every generation.

So far everyone who has tested positive is a very close match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] modal, and those who have tested negative are not. I was able to predict that  Östensson, Auke and Quillander would get positive results by comparing their haplotypes to Nordtvedt's cluster modal. According to Ken, this cluster is most common in Norway, but is found in Sweden and Denmark as well. As far as I can tell, only one Norwegian has ordered it so far, and he was positive. There are other people in the P312 subclades project who would almost certainly test positive, if they would just order the test.

Do you know who those guys are? I could email them and ask them to order the test.

What are the defining values of Ken's R1b-Norse cluster?


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on April 10, 2011, 07:06:59 PM
All right, I found Smith, too. He was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

So now I have all of the known R-L238 guys safely tucked away in the R-L238 category. Thus far, four Scandinavians and one Englishman.

Thanks, Robert.





Rich, sorry but I had a typo in Smith's Y search number. It's NXMWE. Sometimes I think I have late onset dyslexia, as I find myself doing this sort of thing more and more these days. Part of the confusion is no doubt due to the fact that the current  surnames of the four Scandinavians are different from the ancestral ones. This comes from the former practice there where surnames changed with every generation.

So far everyone who has tested positive is a very close match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] modal, and those who have tested negative are not. I was able to predict that  Östensson, Auke and Quillander would get positive results by comparing their haplotypes to Nordtvedt's cluster modal. According to Ken, this cluster is most common in Norway, but is found in Sweden and Denmark as well. As far as I can tell, only one Norwegian has ordered it so far, and he was positive. There are other people in the P312 subclades project who would almost certainly test positive, if they would just order the test.

Do you know who those guys are? I could email them and ask them to order the test.

What are the defining values of Ken's R1b-Norse cluster?

Defining off modal STR markers for the Norse modal according to Nordtvedt:

DYS385a/b = 11,13
DYS 439 = 11
DYS 441 = 14
DYS 446 = 15

In my research, I have noticed that cluster members also have DYS 534 greater than the modal 15 (ie 16 or 17). Of course, not everyone will match all of these. Quillander for instance is modal 11,14 at 385a/b, instead of the off-modal 11,13. 441 is ordinarily only tested by SMGF, though it is available by special order at FTDNA, but most FTDNA customers haven't tested for it.

I will send you a list of project members who I'm reasonably certain will be positive.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on April 16, 2011, 12:28:28 PM
I emailed all those potential R-L238 guys, but I haven't heard from any of them yet, unfortunately. I also posted on Rootsweb about L238 today.

Too bad the recent YCC Tree update missed L238. Guess we wait for the next one.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on April 16, 2011, 03:07:43 PM
I emailed all those potential R-L238 guys, but I haven't heard from any of them yet, unfortunately. I also posted on Rootsweb about L238 today.

Too bad the recent YCC Tree update missed L238. Guess we wait for the next one.

At least it has been recognized in the ISOGG tree.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on April 17, 2011, 11:16:46 AM
The nice thing about the YCC updates is that FTDNA goes into Ysearch and updates the y haplogroup designators of the men who have tested positive for the various SNPs.

You pick up a lot of folks you didn't know about that way.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on July 12, 2011, 05:04:27 PM
There's a new R-L238 today: Fletcher, kit 102949, Ysearch N4TAY, ancestry in England.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on July 13, 2011, 06:22:00 PM
There's a new R-L238 today: Fletcher, kit 102949, Ysearch N4TAY, ancestry in England.

Yes, it's the first positive L238 result for some time. His EKA is from Sheerness, on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent. I believe this was a Viking base at the time of Alred the Great, but this could be a coincidence.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on July 25, 2011, 02:40:49 PM
Okay, we finally have another likely L238 candidate testing for it: Lundberg, kit 98393, with ancestry in Sweden (Ysearch Y4PWJ).

Hopefully, he'll get a positive result.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on July 26, 2011, 11:10:50 PM
Okay, we finally have another likely L238 candidate testing for it: Lundberg, kit 98393, with ancestry in Sweden (Ysearch Y4PWJ).

Hopefully, he'll get a positive result.

If he turns out negative, I'll eat my hat.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 06, 2011, 07:12:02 AM
There's a new R-L238 this morning: Starkey, kit N75889 (no Ysearch entry yet). He's in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. He cannot get his line past Texas in 1858 and is not sure whether the surname was originally Stark or Starkey.

His first 12 markers are consistent with Ken Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster. He has 37 on order, so we'll see how the rest fall into place. That won't get us 446 or 441, though, but Starkey is probably a member of the cluster, given his L238+ result.

Not to attempt to press all L238 results into a preconceived template or anything, but the surname Starkey has at its root the word Stark, which is an old Germanic word meaning "strong" or "firm". There was, of course, a legendary Norse warrior by the name of Starkad (Old Norse: Starkaðr or Störkuðr), so the surname Starkey is not without possible Norse roots.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 06, 2011, 09:26:24 AM
I noticed that kits N46632, N81251, N70239, and 60606 in the Norway DNA Project, and kits 2320, N24210, 161851, 170725, 47779, and 10127 in the Scandinavian Y-DNA Project either appear to fit the R1b-Norse Cluster or are reasonably close. We have some general fund money in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, so I wrote the admins of the Norway and Scandinavian Projects to try to recruit the owners of those kits for L238 testing.

We'll see who goes for it. Hopefully, they all will.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 06, 2011, 10:42:19 AM
I noticed that kits N46632, N81251, N70239, and 60606 in the Norway DNA Project, and kits 2320, N24210, 161851, 170725, 47779, and 10127 in the Scandinavian Y-DNA Project either appear to fit the R1b-Norse Cluster or are reasonably close. We have some general fund money in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, so I wrote the admins of the Norway and Scandinavian Projects to try to recruit the owners of those kits for L238 testing.

We'll see who goes for it. Hopefully, they all will.


That was quick!

We've already had one accept the offer: Pedersen, kit N81251, from Norway (Ysearch UR3SR).

He has just 37 markers right now but is awaiting a 67-marker upgrade.

The odds that he is L238+ look pretty good. His best match is a 34/37 with Gyllengahm of Sweden, who has already tested L238+.



Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 06, 2011, 03:54:53 PM
I noticed that kits N46632, N81251, N70239, and 60606 in the Norway DNA Project, and kits 2320, N24210, 161851, 170725, 47779, and 10127 in the Scandinavian Y-DNA Project either appear to fit the R1b-Norse Cluster or are reasonably close. We have some general fund money in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, so I wrote the admins of the Norway and Scandinavian Projects to try to recruit the owners of those kits for L238 testing.

We'll see who goes for it. Hopefully, they all will.


That was quick!

We've already had one accept the offer: Pedersen, kit N81251, from Norway (Ysearch UR3SR).

He has just 37 markers right now but is awaiting a 67-marker upgrade.

The odds that he is L238+ look pretty good. His best match is a 34/37 with Gyllengahm of Sweden, who has already tested L238+.



Excellent work, Rich. I've identified a number of individuals on Ysearch whom I have little doubt would test positive for L238, but I've never looked at the projects you mentioned. Here are some of the ones I found: 5T6QZ (Norway), JNQVU (Norway), R6GKY (Finland), JFGYS (Norway), Y4PWJ (Sweden), PH6HF (Norway), 48YPA (Norway), K3JVF (Norway), PRRYG (Norway), and G56YU (Norway). Even though most of those found to be L238+ at the moment are from either England or Sweden, I have reason to believe the subclade is concentrated in Norway. Since I found these on Ysearch, I don't know their FTDNA kit numbers, but probably some of them will be the same as those you have identified. My guess is that with those who only have tested 12 markers, anyone from Scandinavia with 385a/b=11,13 and 439=11 is probably going to be L238+.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 06, 2011, 07:09:50 PM
Two more have agreed to be tested for L238: Tertnes, kit N46632 (no Ysearch that I can find yet), and Bentsen, kit N2658, Ysearch JNQVU. Both are Norwegian.

Neither of them has more than 12 markers, but it's worth a shot.

I'll look into those Ysearch numbers as soon as I can, Robert (Bentsen's was one of the ones you mentioned above). It probably won't be this evening, though.

Anne Berge of the Norway DNA Project sent out the offer letter in Norwegian, and that appears to be helping, because most of these guys are apparently actual Norwegian citizens.



Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 06, 2011, 09:33:12 PM
Two more have agreed to be tested for L238: Tertnes, kit N46632 (no Ysearch that I can find yet), and Bentsen, kit N2658, Ysearch JNQVU. Both are Norwegian.

Neither of them has more than 12 markers, but it's worth a shot.

I'll look into those Ysearch numbers as soon as I can, Robert (Bentsen's was one of the ones you mentioned above). It probably won't be this evening, though.

Anne Berge of the Norway DNA Project sent out the offer letter in Norwegian, and that appears to be helping, because most of these guys are apparently actual Norwegian citizens.



I may be able to save you some work.

Bentsen is on my list, even though he only has 12 markers. He is in the P312 project. I think he has a good shot at positive results.

I checked some of my notes and found these two guys also in the P312 project. 5T6QZ on my list above is kit 148371, and he is a virtual certainty. I think he is in Norway, so perhaps having him contacted in Norwegian and/or the offer of a free test will finally get him to order it. Also in the project is R6GJY (Finland), kit 106356. He has 10,14 at 385a/b instead of 11,13, but otherwise he matches Nordtvedt's markers. I think there is a better than 50/50 chance he would test positive. I believe he is in the US.

Finally I believe Y4PWJ of Sweden is kit 98393, and though I don't think he is in the P312 project, he is another slam dunk in my opinion. I believe he's an American. Maybe an offer of a free test would tempt him.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 07, 2011, 06:31:54 AM
Two more have agreed to be tested for L238: Tertnes, kit N46632 (no Ysearch that I can find yet), and Bentsen, kit N2658, Ysearch JNQVU. Both are Norwegian.

Neither of them has more than 12 markers, but it's worth a shot.

I'll look into those Ysearch numbers as soon as I can, Robert (Bentsen's was one of the ones you mentioned above). It probably won't be this evening, though.

Anne Berge of the Norway DNA Project sent out the offer letter in Norwegian, and that appears to be helping, because most of these guys are apparently actual Norwegian citizens.



I may be able to save you some work.

Bentsen is on my list, even though he only has 12 markers. He is in the P312 project. I think he has a good shot at positive results.

I checked some of my notes and found these two guys also in the P312 project. 5T6QZ on my list above is kit 148371, and he is a virtual certainty. I think he is in Norway, so perhaps having him contacted in Norwegian and/or the offer of a free test will finally get him to order it. Also in the project is R6GJY (Finland), kit 106356. He has 10,14 at 385a/b instead of 11,13, but otherwise he matches Nordtvedt's markers. I think there is a better than 50/50 chance he would test positive. I believe he is in the US.

Finally I believe Y4PWJ of Sweden is kit 98393, and though I don't think he is in the P312 project, he is another slam dunk in my opinion. I believe he's an American. Maybe an offer of a free test would tempt him.

Thanks, Robert. Y4PWJ is Lundberg, and he is currently awaiting his L238 result.

I have written 5T6QZ and offered him the test. I just finished writing to R6GJY.

We have another Norwegian who has agreed to test for L238: Michaelsen. I am just waiting for Anne Berge to discover his email and join him to the R-P312 and Subclades Project so that I will have his kit number. He has one of those kits I mentioned above, but I can't tell which one for sure, since modern Scandinavian names don't usually match the ancestral ones.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 07, 2011, 03:28:08 PM
Okay, Michaelsen is in and his L238 test is ordered. He is kit N70239 (no Ysearch yet). Michaelsen (ancestral surname Olsen) has 385=13-13, but that's probably a RecLoH from an earlier 11-13. He has 439=11, but that's as far as we get with the R1b-Norse markers, since he has just 12 markers total.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: A.D. on August 07, 2011, 10:09:28 PM
Not really on topic but recently saw a BBC programme that said 80% of the female population in Iceland was of Irish decent mtDNA. and 100% of males were of Norse origin.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 08, 2011, 04:52:13 PM
Not really on topic but recently saw a BBC programme that said 80% of the female population in Iceland was of Irish decent mtDNA. and 100% of males were of Norse origin.

If they have some way of isolating Norse origin Ydna, I wish they would let us in on it.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 08, 2011, 07:53:28 PM
The fourth and last of the Norwegians I was trying to recruit for L238 testing has accepted and joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project: Andresen, kit 60606 (no Ysearch yet). He's the fifth if you count Bentsen, but Bentsen was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, in the R-P312* Scandinavia category.

I haven't heard from any of the group from the Scandinavian Y-DNA Project yet. There were six of them there.

As of now, we have six Scandinavians awaiting L238 test results: five Norwegians and one Swede.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 08, 2011, 09:58:50 PM
The fourth and last of the Norwegians I was trying to recruit for L238 testing has accepted and joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project: Andresen, kit 60606 (no Ysearch yet). He's the fifth if you count Bentsen, but Bentsen was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, in the R-P312* Scandinavia category.

I haven't heard from any of the group from the Scandinavian Y-DNA Project yet. There were six of them there.

As of now, we have six Scandinavians awaiting L238 test results: five Norwegians and one Swede.

Thanks for the excellent work.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 09, 2011, 07:09:35 PM
We've got yet another Norwegian testing for L238 now: Hatvik, kit 148471, Ysearch 5T6QZ. He was one I had written to myself, although he does also belong to the Norway Project.

That gives us 7 Scandinavians awaiting L238 results. It would be neat if all 7 were L238+.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 10, 2011, 04:52:44 PM
We've got yet another Norwegian testing for L238 now: Hatvik, kit 148471, Ysearch 5T6QZ. He was one I had written to myself, although he does also belong to the Norway Project.

That gives us 7 Scandinavians awaiting L238 results. It would be neat if all 7 were L238+.

Congratulations on landing him. He was one of the first ones I identified as highly likely to be L238 positive.

One difficulty in assessing candidates is almost no one has tested for DYS441, where 14 (modal is 13) is a very strong indicator, when combined with the other distinctive off-modals for this group, of L238 positive status. It is available by special order from FTDNA, but very few have bothered ordering it. I don't know if 441 is included in the new 111 marker tests there.

My guess is that at least six of these seven will get positive results, and seven for seven wouldn't surprise me.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2011, 06:31:00 PM
It's too bad getting the results takes so long.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 10, 2011, 08:11:59 PM
It's too bad getting the results takes so long.

I wouldn't wait on the edge of my chair. I just checked the status of pending L238 orders at FTDNA and there were about 10 that were due in March and a few more due in April. These are now 4-5 months overdue.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2011, 07:48:24 AM
It's too bad getting the results takes so long.

I wouldn't wait on the edge of my chair. I just checked the status of pending L238 orders at FTDNA and there were about 10 that were due in March and a few more due in April. These are now 4-5 months overdue.

Oh, crap!

Maybe now that they have a few more they can process all of them. :-O


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: authun on August 14, 2011, 06:37:42 AM
Not really on topic but recently saw a BBC programme that said 80% of the female population in Iceland was of Irish decent mtDNA. and 100% of males were of Norse origin.

The BBC lost some of the detail if it is based on Goodacre et al's 'Genetic evidence for a family-based Scandinavian settlement of Shetland and Orkney during the Viking periods'. But the differences between the female and celtic populations is broadly correct.

http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v95/n2/pdf/6800661a.pdf

cheers
authun



Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: OConnor on August 16, 2011, 09:53:06 AM
I have found some reference to Celtic People in Iceland and Greenland, though I do not have the time right now to read it over.

I'll post a link here, in case you want to read it.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/medieval.www/sagaconf/ulfmoller.pdf


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 18, 2011, 08:09:08 PM
We've got yet another Norwegian testing for L238 now: Hatvik, kit 148471, Ysearch 5T6QZ. He was one I had written to myself, although he does also belong to the Norway Project.

That gives us 7 Scandinavians awaiting L238 results. It would be neat if all 7 were L238+.

Three of the Norwegians you recruited got their L238 results today, and all three were positive. L238 results were also posted for someone of French ancestry, who was negative.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 20, 2011, 07:06:08 AM
We've got yet another Norwegian testing for L238 now: Hatvik, kit 148471, Ysearch 5T6QZ. He was one I had written to myself, although he does also belong to the Norway Project.

That gives us 7 Scandinavians awaiting L238 results. It would be neat if all 7 were L238+.

Three of the Norwegians you recruited got their L238 results today, and all three were positive. L238 results were also posted for someone of French ancestry, who was negative.

Yeah, I saw that this morning: Hatvik, Andresen, and Bentsen are all positive. The rest are still waiting.

Unfortunately, I am away from home right now and must share one of just two hotel computers.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 24, 2011, 07:35:37 PM
Okay, we finally have another likely L238 candidate testing for it: Lundberg, kit 98393, with ancestry in Sweden (Ysearch Y4PWJ).

Hopefully, he'll get a positive result.


If he turns out negative, I'll eat my hat.

You'll have to choose something other than hat for dinner this evening (unless that is what you want): Lundberg is officially L238+.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 25, 2011, 04:38:21 PM
Okay, we finally have another likely L238 candidate testing for it: Lundberg, kit 98393, with ancestry in Sweden (Ysearch Y4PWJ).

Hopefully, he'll get a positive result.


If he turns out negative, I'll eat my hat.

You'll have to choose something other than hat for dinner this evening (unless that is what you want): Lundberg is officially L238+.

I'll have to say I didn't got in a lot of salt in preparation for eating my hat.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 30, 2011, 02:21:35 PM
The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 30, 2011, 05:00:26 PM
The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.

Excellent news, but I'm not at all surprised.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 30, 2011, 08:06:44 PM
The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.

Excellent news, but I'm not at all surprised.

I wish we could get the guys I found in the Scandinavia Project tested, but I still haven't heard from the project admin yet.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 30, 2011, 08:55:40 PM
Robert,

These R-L238 guys should be grateful to you for pushing and making this subclade happen. If you hadn't done it, chances are no one would know about it.

I wish one of them would start an R-L238 Project.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 30, 2011, 09:15:25 PM
Robert,

These R-L238 guys should be grateful to you for pushing and making this subclade happen. If you hadn't done it, chances are no one would know about it.

I wish one of them would start an R-L238 Project.

I expect you are right that if I hadn't spotted the L238+ result in the 23andme project results for someone who was a very good match to Nordtvedt's Norse cluster (which I was researching at the time), it would still be unknown. Even then it took me a lot of effort and some time to get someone interested. FTDNA essentially blew me off, but Jim Wilson of EA took me seriously and began offering testing for it.  It took FTDNA at least a year after that to get around to offering it.

It just demonstrates that it is the amateur hobbiests that are the spearhead of new discoveries in this field. A few guys at the DNA forums pouring over the 1000 Genomes Project results have discovered more new R1b SNPs in the last few months than all the professional testing companies put together over the last several years.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 30, 2011, 09:19:50 PM
The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.

Excellent news, but I'm not at all surprised.

I wish we could get the guys I found in the Scandinavia Project tested, but I still haven't heard from the project admin yet.

 Have you looked at any of the Danish projects yet? According to Nordtvedt, L238 is found there as well. AFAIK, not a single person of Danish ancestry has even tested for it yet.

Incidentally I have gone through some of the L238 results and have found two that are GDs of 16 and 17 respectively from one of the others. Clearly this is not a young subclade.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on August 31, 2011, 01:23:02 PM
The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.

Excellent news, but I'm not at all surprised.

I wish we could get the guys I found in the Scandinavia Project tested, but I still haven't heard from the project admin yet.

 Have you looked at any of the Danish projects yet? According to Nordtvedt, L238 is found there as well. AFAIK, not a single person of Danish ancestry has even tested for it yet.

Incidentally I have gone through some of the L238 results and have found two that are GDs of 16 and 17 respectively from one of the others. Clearly this is not a young subclade.

I didn't find any in the Danish Demes Project. I did find one possible in the Denmark Project, however: kit N70862. No surname is listed, but the place of origin is listed as the Faroe Islands. It's only a 12-marker haplotype, but it might be worth a shot.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 31, 2011, 02:20:32 PM
The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.

Excellent news, but I'm not at all surprised.

I wish we could get the guys I found in the Scandinavia Project tested, but I still haven't heard from the project admin yet.

 Have you looked at any of the Danish projects yet? According to Nordtvedt, L238 is found there as well. AFAIK, not a single person of Danish ancestry has even tested for it yet.

Incidentally I have gone through some of the L238 results and have found two that are GDs of 16 and 17 respectively from one of the others. Clearly this is not a young subclade.

I didn't find any in the Danish Demes Project. I did find one possible in the Denmark Project, however: kit N70862. No surname is listed, but the place of origin is listed as the Faroe Islands. It's only a 12-marker haplotype, but it might be worth a shot.

I think these last test results demonstrate that anyone from Scandinavia with 12 markers who has 385a/b=11,13 and 439=11 is probably going to be L238+.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2011, 06:51:43 PM
I think we just recruited another Swede, ancestral surname Germundsson, kit 170725 (no Ysearch yet). You may have seen him already. I'm just waiting for his email permission to order the test. I gave Anne Berge of the Norway Project the missing kit numbers. She has been working on recruiting the ones we've missed thus far.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: GoldenHind on September 01, 2011, 08:10:58 PM
I think we just recruited another Swede, ancestral surname Germundsson, kit 170725 (no Ysearch yet). You may have seen him already. I'm just waiting for his email permission to order the test. I gave Anne Berge of the Norway Project the missing kit numbers. She has been working on recruiting the ones we've missed thus far.

I did notice that, though I couldn't tell which Scandinavian country he came from. I also saw the order for L238 went through. I assume he matches the Norse modal.

Rich, are you encouraging these people to post their markers on Ysearch? It would be helpful in determining variance, etc. I have calculated that amongst those whose 67 markers are posted on Ysearch, one is a GD of 17 at 67, which suggests it isn't young. Does anyone know what GDs exist within M222 for comparison?


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2011, 08:30:36 PM
I think we just recruited another Swede, ancestral surname Germundsson, kit 170725 (no Ysearch yet). You may have seen him already. I'm just waiting for his email permission to order the test. I gave Anne Berge of the Norway Project the missing kit numbers. She has been working on recruiting the ones we've missed thus far.

I did notice that, though I couldn't tell which Scandinavian country he came from. I also saw the order for L238 went through. I assume he matches the Norse modal.

Rich, are you encouraging these people to post their markers on Ysearch? It would be helpful in determining variance, etc. I have calculated that amongst those whose 67 markers are posted on Ysearch, one is a GD of 17 at 67, which suggests it isn't young. Does anyone know what GDs exist within M222 for comparison?

Most of them don't speak much English, so Anne Berge has been doing most of the communicating. I'll ask her to encourage them to create Ysearch entries.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 02, 2011, 08:32:46 AM
I think we just recruited another Swede, ancestral surname Germundsson, kit 170725 (no Ysearch yet). You may have seen him already. I'm just waiting for his email permission to order the test. I gave Anne Berge of the Norway Project the missing kit numbers. She has been working on recruiting the ones we've missed thus far.
Great work! It's good to see L238  finally building up. Almost enough to start thinking about how old it is usually those confounded genetic molecular clocks.

P.S. Last night I turned on the TV and a documentary on the "missing link" was on where scientists were trying to determine where and when modern man's lineage first separate from modern apes' lineages. They were claiming (I think is a quote) the genetic "molecular clock is amazingly consistent" which allows us to "estimate time" very effectively.    They were talking about 6M ybp for the separate of man's lineage give or take a 1M. That's about a 17% swing either way which is large, but still instructive.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: seferhabahir on September 02, 2011, 04:49:54 PM

Great work! It's good to see L238  finally building up. Almost enough to start thinking about how old it is usually those confounded genetic molecular clocks.

P.S. Last night I turned on the TV and a documentary on the "missing link" was on where scientists were trying to determine where and when modern man's lineage first separate from modern apes' lineages. They were claiming (I think is a quote) the genetic "molecular clock is amazingly consistent" which allows us to "estimate time" very effectively.    They were talking about 6M ybp for the separate of man's lineage give or take a 1M. That's about a 17% swing either way which is large, but still instructive.

I'm old enough to remember the 5-6M ybp estimate for human-chimpanzee separation from the early 1970s when I took a physical anthropology course from Vincent Sarich at UC Berkeley. He was quite controversial back then as one of the first to promote using DNA and molecular clocks. Most everybody thought he was way out in left field on his time estimates, but eventually proven more or less correct. Here is an excerpt from his wikipedia entry:

"In 1967, Sarich and Wilson published a seminal paper in Science that estimated the divergence time of humans and apes as four to five million years ago, at a time when standard interpretations of the fossil record gave this divergence as at least 10 to as much as 30 million years. Subsequent fossil discoveries, notably Lucy, and reinterpretation of older fossil materials, notably Ramapithecus, showed the younger estimates to be correct and validated the albumin method. Application of the molecular clock principle revolutionized the study of molecular evolution."


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 02, 2011, 05:42:26 PM
.... "In 1967, Sarich and Wilson published a seminal paper in Science that estimated the divergence time of humans and apes as four to five million years ago, at a time when standard interpretations of the fossil record gave this divergence as at least 10 to as much as 30 million years. Subsequent fossil discoveries, notably Lucy, and reinterpretation of older fossil materials, notably Ramapithecus, showed the younger estimates to be correct and validated the albumin method. Application of the molecular clock principle revolutionized the study of molecular evolution."
Busby better do counter-argument study on that to stop such thinking. LOL.


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: OConnor on September 03, 2011, 06:07:35 AM
Here is a recent short video about the Neanderthal/Man connection by Svante Pääbo

In the video he says 5 Million years to a common ancestor with chimps.

http://www.exchangemagazine.com/morningpost/2011/week35/Wednesday/083101.htm


Title: Re: New SNP for Scandinavian P312*
Post by: rms2 on December 20, 2011, 08:11:26 PM
Bagge (ancestral surname Germundsson) of Sweden, kit 170725, got his L238+ result today, finally.