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Title: Scandinavian L21
Post by: MHammers on May 28, 2010, 01:39:14 PM
What is everyone's view on the Scandinavian L21's?  

I noticed a couple of them (Rannakliev and Backstrom) cluster closely with two Isles clusters (1012 A-SC and 1012 A-SC1 in the Yahoo group).  I suppose the Scandinavians could be descended from the Isles (viking thrall scenario) or could the Scandinavians be the source for these clusters (a founder effect?).  Is there any way, short of a papertrail, to indicate the gene flow?  Backstrom's a Swede, but in medieval times and before that the area was much more fluid than before today's nation-states.  

I'm thinking the Scandinavians are much older overall(as a group over the Isles clusters). The members are genetically more distant from each other overall and any clustering with Isles' men seems much more recent due to matching up on several medium and fast markers with the Scandinavians.  Also, there was a Bell Beaker presence in Denmark and southern Norway, that is if there was a Beaker/L21 spread connection.

Thanks,
Mike


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: GoldenHind on May 28, 2010, 07:36:06 PM
What is everyone's view on the Scandinavian L21's?  

I noticed a couple of them (Rannakliev and Backstrom) cluster closely with two Isles clusters (1012 A-SC and 1012 A-SC1 in the Yahoo group).  I suppose the Scandinavians could be descended from the Isles (viking thrall scenario) or could the Scandinavians be the source for these clusters (a founder effect?).  Is there any way, short of a papertrail, to indicate the gene flow?  Backstrom's a Swede, but in medieval times and before that the area was much more fluid than before today's nation-states.  

I'm thinking the Scandinavians are much older overall(as a group over the Isles clusters). The members are genetically more distant from each other overall and any clustering with Isles' men seems much more recent due to matching up on several medium and fast markers with the Scandinavians.  Also, there was a Bell Beaker presence in Denmark and southern Norway, that is if there was a Beaker/L21 spread connection.

Thanks,
Mike
Unfortunately Scandinavia, especially Denamrk, is one of the most undertested regions in FTDNA's database. I don't think anyone has a good idea how the R1b subclades will break down there. One thing we do know is that so far a great deal more L21 has turned up in Norway than any other R1b subclade. Also the so-called "Germanic" U106 so far appears to be pretty scarce in Norway. P312* appears to have a stronghold in Sweden, but is found in eastern Norway and Denmark as well. Whether these trends hold remains to be seen. However the L21 out of Britain crowd seem to be particularly opposed to any possibility that L21 was in Scandinavia before the Viking age.

I don't know if we have enough data there to make valid variance comparisons to other regions.

I have always suspected that R1b in Scandinavia is an important clue in determining the spread of the haplogroup in Europe, but I can't seem to get anyone else interested. Perhaps this is because the Celts were essentially absent from Scandinavia, so it doesn't attract much interest, though as you say the Beakers apparently had a foothold in at least northern Jutland and southern Norway.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on May 28, 2010, 07:49:53 PM
What is everyone's view on the Scandinavian L21's?  

I noticed a couple of them (Rannakliev and Backstrom) cluster closely with two Isles clusters (1012 A-SC and 1012 A-SC1 in the Yahoo group).  I suppose the Scandinavians could be descended from the Isles (viking thrall scenario) or could the Scandinavians be the source for these clusters (a founder effect?).  Is there any way, short of a papertrail, to indicate the gene flow?  Backstrom's a Swede, but in medieval times and before that the area was much more fluid than before today's nation-states.  

I'm thinking the Scandinavians are much older overall(as a group over the Isles clusters). The members are genetically more distant from each other overall and any clustering with Isles' men seems much more recent due to matching up on several medium and fast markers with the Scandinavians.  Also, there was a Bell Beaker presence in Denmark and southern Norway, that is if there was a Beaker/L21 spread connection.

Thanks,
Mike
Unfortunately Scandinavia, especially Denamrk, is one of the most undertested regions in FTDNA's database. I don't think anyone has a good idea how the R1b subclades will break down there. One thing we do know is that so far a great deal more L21 has turned up in Norway than any other R1b subclade. Also the so-called "Germanic" U106 so far appears to be pretty scarce in Norway. P312* appears to have a stronghold in Sweden, but is found in eastern Norway and Denmark as well. Whether these trends hold remains to be seen. However the L21 out of Britain crowd seem to be particularly opposed to any possibility that L21 was in Scandinavia before the Viking age.

I don't know if we have enough data there to make valid variance comparisons to other regions.

I have always suspected that R1b in Scandinavia is an important clue in determining the spread of the haplogroup in Europe, but I can't seem to get anyone else interested. Perhaps this is because the Celts were essentially absent from Scandinavia, so it doesn't attract much interest, though as you say the Beakers apparently had a foothold in at least northern Jutland and southern Norway.

Yeah, I think Denmark is one of the most undertested regions in Europe, among others. There needs to be an updated analysis of the sampling population there, taking into consideration P312* and L21 - which are common throughout Scandinavia.

While I think the Beaker theory is a good hypothesis to explain R1b (P312 and L21 in particular) in Western Europe, I don't think it will hold up as the de facto explanation for L21 in Scandinavia. L21 was probably among the Bronze and Iron Age cultures that influenced Proto-Norse society.

The abundance of L21 in Norway could be due to Norse, coastal settlements. I don't think we have to explain that with substantial input from the British Isles at all. The are a couple of L21 Norwegians in Northern Norway, near Troms and Steigen. The Norse usually settled on the coast, while the Saami held the northern interior.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on May 28, 2010, 08:19:18 PM
I think there is too much L21 in Scandinavia to account for it with the Viking slave trade, but the problem is that there are a couple of Scandinavian guys with a lot of close Scottish matches, and they may actually descend from transplanted Scots.

And that is enough to convince some people (who want very badly to be convinced) that ALL Scandinavian L21+ is of British provenance.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on May 28, 2010, 09:05:01 PM
Well, it simply is not true that many these Scandinavians are of British extraction.

One can also make the argument that those Scots who have close Scandinavian matches are descendants of Anglo-Scandinavian settlers. I agree with you that the naming of the numerous "Irish" and "British" clusters was premature.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 28, 2010, 09:37:35 PM
....
I have always suspected that R1b in Scandinavia is an important clue in determining the spread of the haplogroup in Europe, ....
Agreed.  P312* and L21 may be more common there than many think.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: MHammers on May 28, 2010, 10:48:50 PM
531=12 is the only off-modal value on a slow marker that these clusters and the two Scandinavians share.  All other shared off-modals are medium to fast mutators.  

I ran a quick variance check on the two clusters (1012-A-Sc and 1012-A-SC1 minus the Scandinavians).  I only took out CDY a/b and used the other 65 markers.  

.096 for 1012 A-Sc, n=24
.10 for 1012 A-Sc1, n=27

A very unrefined TMRCA estimate for .096/.0025 (avg.rate) x 30 yrs./gen. gives 1152 years.

For comparison, I did the same with all the Scandinavians, unclustered, and took out 2 downstreamers.
.244, n=17

The two Isles clusters appear much younger, whether the source is from Scandinavia or not.  Rannakliev (1012 A-Sc1) and Backstrom (1012 A-Sc)average 10 and 13 mismatches(only 1 on 27 slowest) respectively@67 markers from every other cluster member.  


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on May 29, 2010, 09:03:10 AM

The two Isles clusters appear much younger, whether the source is from Scandinavia or not.   

This isn't surprising. Thanks for calculating the variances between samples, Mike. While I don't think all of these matching Scots are Scandinavian in origin, it may be understated how many of them are.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 29, 2010, 09:41:30 AM

The two Isles clusters appear much younger, whether the source is from Scandinavia or not.  

This isn't surprising. Thanks for calculating the variances between samples, Mike. While I don't think all of these matching Scots are Scandinavian in origin, it may be understated how many of them are.

The potential for Scandinavian lineages in Scotland is very significant.  As well as the Norwegian Vikings (who at various points ruled Caithness, Sutherland, Ross, the Hebrides and much of the entire western seaboard etc() and viking descended clans, there was another group in Galloway.  In addition the Angles conquered much of southern Scotland in the 600-800AD period and they formed the basis of the lowland Scots language. In addition they and others from England and the northern continent settled the burghs and fishing places under David I (c. 1100AD) as well as the many Norman land owners and families.  As well as Gaelic descent, many of the Scottish clans are of Viking and Norman origins.  You then have to factor in 1000 years of mobility within Scotland and you can see a sprinkling of Scandinavian blood got everywhere at least in modest amounts.  


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: MHammers on May 29, 2010, 09:52:41 AM
Crunching some more numbers I found:

Overall Scotland L21 variance (all clusters,65 markers, undifferentiated members) - .242, n=100

This is basically the same as Scandinavia.  I wonder if L21 Bell-Beakers were arriving in both places about the same time.

531=12 has 100% presence in 1012 A-Sc and 1012 A-Sc1 (all countries)as a defining value of course.  In the rest of the Scotland sample, it is only .12.  

Others for 531=12, W.Europe with .04(4 of 90), Wales .11, England .04, Ireland .04 and Scandinavia .06 (1 of 17) among non-cluster members.  As usual, nothing is ever clear with R1b, we need more Scandinavian L21+ members to get a better picture of gene flow.  There is at least a hint that Scandinavia may be the source for 531=12 with 3 of 17 (.18) members having it.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on May 29, 2010, 01:30:06 PM
Getting a larger, more representative sample from Scandinavia is what we need. Also, there has to be a way to combine the different databases into one, centralized database. A universal standard would help with data gathering.

The Western Isles were also connected to different locales throughout the Irish Sea and Northern England (Cumbria, York and Northumbria). Of course, the Scandinavians here were mostly of the Norwegian variety.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on May 29, 2010, 01:47:14 PM
As I recall, in his book, Origins of the British, Oppenheimer briefly suggested that Scotland might have received some early (well before the historical period) input from Norway. He didn't go any further than that, but he did mention the idea.

I'm not a big Oppenheimer fan, but it is interesting that he did suggest movement from Norway to Scotland at a very early date.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on May 29, 2010, 02:58:02 PM
Is that partly based on the antler combs found in Scotland which are dated prior to the Viking Age?


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on May 29, 2010, 03:03:03 PM
Is that partly based on the antler combs found in Scotland which are dated prior to the Viking Age?

I don't recall, but I think for Oppenheimer the evidence was mostly genetic. I don't remember exactly what it was.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: GoldenHind on May 29, 2010, 03:21:20 PM
As I recall, in his book, Origins of the British, Oppenheimer briefly suggested that Scotland might have received some early (well before the historical period) input from Norway. He didn't go any further than that, but he did mention the idea.

I'm not a big Oppenheimer fan, but it is interesting that he did suggest movement from Norway to Scotland at a very early date.

Even Oppenheimer couldn't get everything wrong.

A recent study by Dr. Wilson of Ethnoancestry and Edinburgh University also claimed to find genetic evidence in eastern Scotland which suggested settlements which probably arose during the Bronze Age through trading networks across the North Sea.

http://tinyurl.com/dytqbh

See the last three paragraphs.



Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 30, 2010, 05:56:17 AM
I have wondered if Oppenheimers book would in some way be used by dividing all his dates in three to get around his use of old style mutation rates.  However, if you do that then all his 4-5000 year old style dates for mystery Scottish-Scandinavian contacts suddenly look a lot more like Viking age dates.  There is very little evidence of cultural movement between Scotland and Scandinavia in the prehistoric period. The way the patterns looked so like dark age movements but were dated by Oppenheimer to the Neolithic, Bronze Age etc simply was an early warning for me that Oppenheimers dates were consistently far too old.  His dates for R1b1b2 arriving in Ireland for example were something like 15000 years ago when in fact the archaeological evidence is that it was 10000 years ago.  Dividing his dates in three gives 5000 years ago for R1b1b2 which is not too far from the later Neolithic/beaker period dates others have recently been suggesting. I suggest dividing all his dates by three as a starting point. Do that and all the archaeologically invisible Scandinavian-Scottish links disappear.

Overall of the 2 books that came out around the same time, I think Sykes book has stood the test of time much better simply because he knew the limitations and I think too he stuck to real dates rather than fudged ones multiplies by 3.  I find his haplogroup breakdown for the British Isles in detail interesting even if they are not broken down into clades.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: GoldenHind on May 30, 2010, 03:35:33 PM
I have wondered if Oppenheimers book would in some way be used by dividing all his dates in three to get around his use of old style mutation rates.  However, if you do that then all his 4-5000 year old style dates for mystery Scottish-Scandinavian contacts suddenly look a lot more like Viking age dates.  There is very little evidence of cultural movement between Scotland and Scandinavia in the prehistoric period. The way the patterns looked so like dark age movements but were dated by Oppenheimer to the Neolithic, Bronze Age etc simply was an early warning for me that Oppenheimers dates were consistently far too old.  His dates for R1b1b2 arriving in Ireland for example were something like 15000 years ago when in fact the archaeological evidence is that it was 10000 years ago.  Dividing his dates in three gives 5000 years ago for R1b1b2 which is not too far from the later Neolithic/beaker period dates others have recently been suggesting. I suggest dividing all his dates by three as a starting point. Do that and all the archaeologically invisible Scandinavian-Scottish links disappear.

Overall of the 2 books that came out around the same time, I think Sykes book has stood the test of time much better simply because he knew the limitations and I think too he stuck to real dates rather than fudged ones multiplies by 3.  I find his haplogroup breakdown for the British Isles in detail interesting even if they are not broken down into clades.
Note though that the link I provided above suggesting genetic evidence of a Bronze Age link between eastern Scotland and the continent comes not from Oppenheimer, but from a study by Jim Wilson and geneticists from Edinburgh University. Wilson is no fool and is probably as familiar with R1b SNPs as anyone.
Of course that doesn't mean he is correct about the  purported age of the contacts, but I am certainly more inclined to give credence to him than to Oppenheimer. 


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 30, 2010, 06:38:07 PM
Goldenhind-It is true that an east-west divide in Britain that was identified in pre-DNA days by the old physical anthropologists extended even further north than can be explained by known major Germanic dark age settlement.  Certainly, there was no Germanic kingdom in the east of Scotland between Fife and Inverness but the same divide has been observed.  

However, there was a major language shift from Pictish to Gaelic to English (Scots) in that area between 800 and 1300 so influx must have happened and the one that established English must have brought in genes from England, Normandy and people like the Flemings were also important. Its a bit of a dark area in history but clearly there was a significant influx into the north of Scotland from England and other parts of Northern Europe.  

The linked article only mentions Bronze Age trading networks but they really only linked peoples in terms of metalwork technology and everything else remained local. That is not indicative of significant movement.  However, the whole of eastern Britain (in contrast to the west) had a very strong beaker culture and probably links with the Low Countries.  

Is it my imagination or do we get intermittent info from Wilson etc but never any details?  I am also curious about the east-west divide that he implies continues further north than can be explained by dark age Germanic kingdoms.  However, Sykes gave Aberdeenshire etc a very high level of R1b on a par with places like Ireland and Wales.  That to me made that part of NE Scotland sound quite 'western'.  That only leaves 'Tayside' in the category of NE Scotland.  If I recall correctly the main oddity there was a much higher amount of Haplogroup I.  What both of the NE areas shared was very low R1a suggesting very little Norwegian input.  

My own feeling is that NE Scotland (the Forth to the Moray Firth) did not receive input from Norway at any period but that there was a considerable flow (largely via England) that would have included Anglo-Saxon, Danish, Norman etc blood as well as Flemings etc.  So, some input from Flanders to Denmark but not Norway.  


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on June 13, 2010, 07:33:25 AM
I found a new Scandinavian R-L21 in Ysearch this morning: Gram, Ysearch NRU8C. He is a Dane whose ancestor came from Buntje-Ballum on the east coast of Jutland, not too far north of the German border.

He's in the Danish Demes Project, kit 174552:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Danish_Demes/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Danish_Demes/default.aspx?section=yresults)

I have invited him to join the R-L21 Plus Project. Hopefully, he will.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: MHammers on June 13, 2010, 11:12:19 AM
Great news!


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on June 13, 2010, 11:47:42 AM
I found a new Scandinavian R-L21 in Ysearch this morning: Gram, Ysearch NRU8C. He is a Dane whose ancestor came from Buntje-Ballum on the east coast of Jutland, not too far north of the German border.

He's in the Danish Demes Project, kit 174552:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Danish_Demes/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Danish_Demes/default.aspx?section=yresults)

I have invited him to join the R-L21 Plus Project. Hopefully, he will.

Aha.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on June 17, 2010, 07:03:49 PM
By the way, Gram has joined the R-L21 Plus Project, in case you all didn't notice.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2010, 05:33:26 PM
We picked up a new R-L21 Norwegian today, Fjeldtvedt, kit E10796. I don't know anything yet about where his most distant y-dna ancestor came from, but his only close match beyond 12 markers is another Norwegian, Igland (ancestral surname Berge), Ysearch V3228.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on July 08, 2010, 10:46:25 AM
Fjeldvedt has an interesting haplotype, for sure.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on August 18, 2010, 09:54:07 PM
Two Scandinavians went L21+ this evening: 1) Jensen, Ysearch 6A5FS, whose ancestor came from Maribo in Denmark; and 2) Aarsbog (ancestral surname Søvik), Ysearch 2XH5R, whose ancestor came from Gjemnes, Norway.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on August 20, 2010, 07:54:14 PM

2XH5R Aarsbog Gjemnes, M�re og Romsdal, Norway  
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 09 09 11 11 19 15 19 28 15 15 16 16

Maybe he is R-L159.2+ like me. then we will know it was an Irish Monk.

My first 25:
12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 09 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

I wonder if he made a mistake on 447=19  ??
 It seems most have a higher number like 25


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on August 21, 2010, 03:04:04 AM

2XH5R Aarsbog Gjemnes, M�re og Romsdal, Norway  
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 09 09 11 11 19 15 19 28 15 15 16 16

Maybe he is R-L159.2+ like me. then we will know it was an Irish Monk.

My first 25:
12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 09 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

I wonder if he made a mistake on 447=19  ??
 It seems most have a higher number like 25

No, that comes from FTDNA. He has 447=19. A bit unusual.

Maybe it will help identify a Norwegian R-L21 cluster.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 21, 2010, 04:14:09 AM
Maybe multistep mutation or my "mutation for the tangent and not around the modal". Probably R-L21+ is older than many think: see the DYS19=10 of Argiedude (and Callaway) and other oddities.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: GoldenHind on August 21, 2010, 01:43:08 PM

2XH5R Aarsbog Gjemnes, M�re og Romsdal, Norway  
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 09 09 11 11 19 15 19 28 15 15 16 16

Maybe he is R-L159.2+ like me. then we will know it was an Irish Monk.

My first 25:
12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 09 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

I wonder if he made a mistake on 447=19  ??
 It seems most have a higher number like 25

No, that comes from FTDNA. He has 447=19. A bit unusual.

Maybe it will help identify a Norwegian R-L21 cluster.
Maybe the Vikings only took those with 447=19 as slaves. A highly discriminating people, the Vikings.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on August 21, 2010, 05:50:00 PM
Two Scandinavians went L21+ this evening: 1) Jensen, Ysearch 6A5FS, whose ancestor came from Maribo in Denmark; and 2) Aarsbog (ancestral surname Søvik), Ysearch 2XH5R, whose ancestor came from Gjemnes, Norway.

That is great another Dane came back L21+! I see that his MDKA is from one of the Danish islands in the Baltic!

And the Norwegian is great; I think we have come to expect some L21+ out of Norway!


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on August 21, 2010, 07:55:51 PM
ahh!...but out of Norway?..or into Norway? ;)

I would say the era of L21 into scandinavia would be interesting.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on August 21, 2010, 09:27:44 PM
ahh!...but out of Norway?..or into Norway? ;)

I would say the era of L21 into scandinavia would be interesting.


At least we are starting to get more of a turnout in Denmark, and none of these guys have surnames beginning with Mac.

Rich pointed out that these two, recent fellows don't have any close British or Irish matches. They probably have an older signature.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on August 22, 2010, 04:31:36 PM
There's yet another new Norwegian R-L21: Ekeli, ancestral surname Knudsen, kit N85026; no Ysearch yet. His ancestor came from Kragerø, on the coast, southwest of Oslo.

If you look at the Norway Project, you will see that R-L21 is clearly the leading R1b1b2 subclade in Norway.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway/default.aspx?section=yresults)

And this is happening mostly of its own accord. I have only recruited a couple of Scandinavians. So, they're just testing independently and getting L21+ results. I'm not out there on a Scandinavian recruiting drive.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on August 22, 2010, 04:39:30 PM
There's yet another new Norwegian R-L21: Ekeli, ancestral surname Knudsen, kit N85026; no Ysearch yet. His ancestor came from Kragerø, on the coast, southwest of Oslo.

If you look at the Norway Project, you will see that R-L21 is clearly the leading R1b1b2 subclade in Norway.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway/default.aspx?section=yresults)

And this is happening mostly of its own accord. I have only recruited a couple of Scandinavians. So, they're just testing independently and getting L21+ results. I'm not out there on a Scandinavian recruiting drive.


I should have mentioned that, although Ekeli/Knudsen has 37 markers, his closest match is 23/25 with a Hungarian. He has no close matches at 37 markers.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on August 22, 2010, 07:23:22 PM
Ekeli has a very interesting haplotype, on the first 12 markers alone.

This has been a big week for Scandinavian L21, for sure.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: GoldenHind on August 22, 2010, 09:28:18 PM
There's yet another new Norwegian R-L21: Ekeli, ancestral surname Knudsen, kit N85026; no Ysearch yet. His ancestor came from Kragerø, on the coast, southwest of Oslo.

If you look at the Norway Project, you will see that R-L21 is clearly the leading R1b1b2 subclade in Norway.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway/default.aspx?section=yresults)

And this is happening mostly of its own accord. I have only recruited a couple of Scandinavians. So, they're just testing independently and getting L21+ results. I'm not out there on a Scandinavian recruiting drive.


I should have mentioned that, although Ekeli/Knudsen has 37 markers, his closest match is 23/25 with a Hungarian. He has no close matches at 37 markers.
A wandering Hungarian monk?


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on August 23, 2010, 06:48:49 PM
I am beginning to think R-L21 really is  the biggest R1b1b2 subclade in Norway. Things could change, I suppose, but thus far it certainly seems to be popping up there frequently through independent, random, non-cherry-picked SNP testing.

That has got to mean more than the occasional Viking-Era British thrall.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: MHammers on August 23, 2010, 08:14:48 PM
I am beginning to think R-L21 really is  the biggest R1b1b2 subclade in Norway. Things could change, I suppose, but thus far it certainly seems to be popping up there frequently through independent, random, non-cherry-picked SNP testing.

That has got to mean more than the occasional Viking-Era British thrall.

It's looking more and more like a Bronze age phenomenon as far as being initally populated by L21, imo.  The climate was supposedly better at that time.  By the Iron Age until the Viking period, the trend was people moving south and west away from Scandinavia.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on August 30, 2010, 08:48:08 AM
I suppose at some point some L21+ Guys may have travelled through this gateway.

Archeologists Find Gateway to the Viking Empire
For a century, archeologists have been dreaming of finding this gate between Denmark and Charlemagne's empire.

The researchers have discovered the only gate leading through the Danevirke, a five-meter (16 feet) wide portal. According to old writings, "horsemen and carts" used to stream through the gate, called "Wiglesdor." Next to it was a customs station and an inn that included a bordello.

The only gate through a giant, 30-kilometer (19-mile) wall which runs through the entire state of Schleswig-Holstein. The massive construction, called the Danevirke -- "work of the Danes" -- is considered the largest earthwork in northern Europe.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,714235,00.html

Danevirke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danevirke


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: bart otoole on September 01, 2010, 05:46:30 PM
Here are two Finns for you

TSDMK
PP9BB

they are 65/67 on ySearch.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2010, 08:19:54 PM
Here are two Finns for you

TSDMK
PP9BB

they are 65/67 on ySearch.


They have both been in the project for some time.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Norwich on September 05, 2010, 04:12:43 AM
I think there is too much L21 in Scandinavia to account for it with the Viking slave trade, but the problem is that there are a couple of Scandinavian guys with a lot of close Scottish matches, and they may actually descend from transplanted Scots.

And that is enough to convince some people (who want very badly to be convinced) that ALL Scandinavian L21+ is of British provenance.
What is very clear is that (based on your Google Maps) that L21 in Scandinavia is almost exclusively distributed along the coastal margins.  Yes, there are guys with names like Dondass who are obviously recent Scottish transplants, but it is likely that part of what we are seeing is reflected in the percentages of Irish Y in Iceland (about 20% if we are to believe Hegeson et al.) and this mostly Likely from those who accompanied the Norse when they retreated from Dublin or other coastal Irish settlements.  The Icelandic historical records pretty well support these figures.  If Ireland was the main source of L21 in Scandinavia then one might expect a smattering of M222.  I don't recall if this is the case.

What is quite dramatic is a compaison of U152 and L21 in Scandinavia.  Just looking at Norway, there is not yet to be found a single individual with this haplogroup outside the southeastern or Vik area - basically Oslofjord from the headwaters in Lillehammer to the fanning outlets in both Norway and Sweden (Vestfold).  All subgroups (U152*, L2*, and L20) are represented here.  

This geographical fact needs explaining.  So few Scandinavians have been deep clade tested (look at at the output of the FTDNA Denmark Project) that it will be a while before much further is known.  The Myres study distribution pattern (north and southeast probably meaning Jutland and Fyn) is consistent with the hobbiest results.

Norwich.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2010, 06:17:35 AM
Did Myres et al do any sampling in Norway? I haven't looked at that study in a week or so, but I thought they left Norway out.

Most of the R1b1b2 in Norway, and the R1a, as well, as I understand it, are found along the coast. In fact, it's rather difficult to get too awfully far away from the coast in Norway, given its geography.

I'm not a big fan of that recent Myres et al report, which I think has some serious sampling problems, but they found very little U152 in their Scandinavian sample.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 05, 2010, 10:44:51 AM
Did Myres et al do any sampling in Norway? I haven't looked at that study in a week or so, but I thought they left Norway out.

Most of the R1b1b2 in Norway, and the R1a, as well, as I understand it, are found along the coast. In fact, it's rather difficult to get too awfully far away from the coast in Norway, given its geography.

I'm not a big fan of that recent Myres et al report, which I think has some serious sampling problems, but they found very little U152 in their Scandinavian sample.

I know that the Norse settled near the coast, whereas the Saami settled further inland. How much U152 is in Norway/Scandinavia?

That is interesting about the Irish leaving with the Norse (I am guessing after Clontarf). Is this a fairly good possibility?


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Norwich on September 05, 2010, 12:05:09 PM
Did Myres et al do any sampling in Norway? I haven't looked at that study in a week or so, but I thought they left Norway out.

Most of the R1b1b2 in Norway, and the R1a, as well, as I understand it, are found along the coast. In fact, it's rather difficult to get too awfully far away from the coast in Norway, given its geography.

I'm not a big fan of that recent Myres et al report, which I think has some serious sampling problems, but they found very little U152 in their Scandinavian sample.

I know that the Norse settled near the coast, whereas the Saami settled further inland. How much U152 is in Norway/Scandinavia?

That is interesting about the Irish leaving with the Norse (I am guessing after Clontarf). Is this a fairly good possibility?
The Myres and genetic genealogist data are saying pretty much the same thing.  not a heck of a log of U152 in Scanadinavia (circa 3% total perhaps) but highly concentrated in very specific areas such that locally the percentage may riise to 10% or so.  A large triangle circumscribing the Vik from the head to the mouth of Oslofjord; and northern and eastern Jutland (including the island of Fyn).  There is one outlier from Stockholm, and another from the middke of Finalnd and that is it - so far.  This distribution could not be more different from what we see with L21.  These two S116 subclades have a very different history in Scandinavia - that much we can take to the bank at this point.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 05, 2010, 01:03:27 PM
If U152 is scant in Scandinavia, how did it get there? My guess is L21 arrived much earlier.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Norwich on September 05, 2010, 01:51:55 PM
If U152 is scant in Scandinavia, how did it get there? My guess is L21 arrived much earlier.
Probably during the Celtic migrations circa 425.  The apparent reason for Gauls - Celts moving to Italy was the rich agricultural resources (figs, olives etc.) and for a Scandinavian push - amber.  It is only a short hop across what may or may not have been solidly Germanic areas to reach northern Jutland.  The Vik was the jewel in the crown of Denmark circa 800 AD.  It is not in the least clear as to when U152 (descendants of the amber traders?) spread to the north - but they ended up in the wealthiest area of Norway (at one time Denmark) and may have been in a position to control passage through the narrow straight separating Skagen Denmark from the Vik.

The L21 haplotypes look Scottish or Irish to me but others would need to confirm this.  Is there M222, South Irish, Irish Type III there.  If yes, then likely a recent arrival with the returning Vikings (those who chose not to settled in Iceland).  If the L21 is largely haplotypes that would be quite alien in the British Isles - then probably an early presence - or a blend of Viking era arrivals with "old stock" (which would confuse the picture dramatically).

The U152 haplotypes seem similar to those found in Southern Germany, but one could debate their arrival time endlessly.  What does make sense is the "pull factor" - which in this case would be amber which was highly desired in the Roman Empire.  Perhaps the origins are to be found in Northern Italy - even Venice.

When Jutland was depopulated circa 430 AD and again during the Viking era, doubtless much of the U152 ended up in England and Normandy.  It would be interesting to compare Norman haplotypes to those found in Denmark.  There does not appear to be a great deal of U152 in Normandy either - but it came from somewhere.  The Belgae, the Danes, or who knows.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 05, 2010, 02:16:10 PM
I am confused why U152 is associated with Iron Age entry into Scandinavia, and L21 is not. The latter is much more represented in Scandinavia than the former, so it is harder for me to accept L21's presence there as the result of Viking Age movements.

The hotspot for U152 is Switzerland/Southern Germany, but its numbers decrease as one moves north. Is there any evidence for Celts in Scandinavia? I know they got their amber from the Baltic, but I thought Celtic tribes only reached as far as Southern Poland.

I coordinate the L159 Project (downstream of L21) so that it serves as a repository of data. There are a couple of Norwegians in the project, two of the four are native Norwegians. One is L159+, and his ancestry is from the Ofotenfjord area in the North, whereas the other Norwegian is from Oppland in the South. The former has no matches at 37 markers. I'm not saying that those British L159+ are of Norse origin, but maybe some clades are older than we think.

Then one has to acknowledge the British Isles bias in the sampling frame.



Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Norwich on September 05, 2010, 02:54:57 PM
I am confused why U152 is associated with Iron Age entry into Scandinavia, and L21 is not. The latter is much more represented in Scandinavia than the former, so it is harder for me to accept L21's presence there as the result of Viking Age movements.

The hotspot for U152 is Switzerland/Southern Germany, but its numbers decrease as one moves north. Is there any evidence for Celts in Scandinavia? I know they got their amber from the Baltic, but I thought Celtic tribes only reached as far as Southern Poland.

I coordinate the L159 Project (downstream of L21) so that it serves as a repository of data. There are a couple of Norwegians in the project, two of the four are native Norwegians. One is L159+, and his ancestry is from the Ofotenfjord area in the North, whereas the other Norwegian is from Oppland in the South. The former has no matches at 37 markers. I'm not saying that those British L159+ are of Norse origin, but maybe some clades are older than we think.

Then one has to acknowledge the British Isles bias in the sampling frame.


Re Celts in Scandinava.  Some of the best Celtic Iron Age artifacts archaeological artifiacts come from Jutland.  For example the Gundestrup Cauldron, the Braa Cauldron, the Djedjerg Wagons. 

The first language recorded from Scandinavia are words from the peoples who resided on the eastern margin of Jutland.  These words are Mare Morusa (Dead Sea - Baltic Sea) and Mare Congelium (spelling? but means frozen) from the sea between Sweden and Finland.  Celtic scholars have reported that these are indisputably Celtic words.  Pliny the Elder reported these facts, quoting a Greek historian who flourished circa 325 BC.  The region where these people lived is, oddly (or not), the only place where U152 is today found in Denmark.  The archaeological artifacts are also only from this said area.

Has any South Irish or Irish Type III been found in Scandinavia?
 


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 05, 2010, 03:14:28 PM
These words are Mare Morusa (Dead Sea - Baltic Sea) and Mare Congelium (spelling? but means frozen) from the sea between Sweden and Finland.  Celtic scholars have reported that these are indisputably Celtic words.  Pliny the Elder reported these facts, quoting a Greek historian who flourished circa 325 BC.  The region where these people lived is, oddly (or not), the only place where U152 is today found in Denmark.  The archaeological artifacts are also only from this said area.

Certainly Mare Morusa and Mare Congelium are Latin words. Probably Plyny the Elder translated these words in Latin, otherwise, if they are really the original words, we should think to Italics as the inhabitants of those regions. It is probably not believable, but R-U152 could have come from Italy, which retains the highest numbers and variance of this haplogroup.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 05, 2010, 03:32:27 PM
I am confused why U152 is associated with Iron Age entry into Scandinavia, and L21 is not. The latter is much more represented in Scandinavia than the former, so it is harder for me to accept L21's presence there as the result of Viking Age movements.

The hotspot for U152 is Switzerland/Southern Germany, but its numbers decrease as one moves north. Is there any evidence for Celts in Scandinavia? I know they got their amber from the Baltic, but I thought Celtic tribes only reached as far as Southern Poland.

I coordinate the L159 Project (downstream of L21) so that it serves as a repository of data. There are a couple of Norwegians in the project, two of the four are native Norwegians. One is L159+, and his ancestry is from the Ofotenfjord area in the North, whereas the other Norwegian is from Oppland in the South. The former has no matches at 37 markers. I'm not saying that those British L159+ are of Norse origin, but maybe some clades are older than we think.

Then one has to acknowledge the British Isles bias in the sampling frame.


Re Celts in Scandinava.  Some of the best Celtic Iron Age artifacts archaeological artifiacts come from Jutland.  For example the Gundestrup Cauldron, the Braa Cauldron, the Djedjerg Wagons. 

The first language recorded from Scandinavia are words from the peoples who resided on the eastern margin of Jutland.  These words are Mare Morusa (Dead Sea - Baltic Sea) and Mare Congelium (spelling? but means frozen) from the sea between Sweden and Finland.  Celtic scholars have reported that these are indisputably Celtic words.  Pliny the Elder reported these facts, quoting a Greek historian who flourished circa 325 BC.  The region where these people lived is, oddly (or not), the only place where U152 is today found in Denmark.  The archaeological artifacts are also only from this said area.

Has any South Irish or Irish Type III been found in Scandinavia?
 

I knew that the cauldrons were imports from Celtic lands, but I don't think Jutland was ever Celticized. I could be wrong. Southern Scandinavia is the source of the Nordic Bronze Age, where L21 is also found.

I can't speak for the South or Irish Type III clusters because I don't know too much about them - although it wouldn't surprise me if some samples are in Scandinavia. The Irish Sea Modal shows up in Norway, Denmark, and Sweden. Are you saying these are all imports from the Viking Age?

And I think Mac is right that those words for the Baltic Sea were written by Latin scholars, but do we know what the natives called it?



Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 05, 2010, 05:54:17 PM
Probably a mistake to assume that the language boundaries in 100BC are anything like they were in 1000BC.  Language fronts move, often only leaving small residual traces of the previous state of affairs.  I have a book on Scottish placenames that breaks them down period by period for example.  It lists English, Norse, Norman, Gaelic, P-Celtic names and even suggests a category of rivernames that belong to a period when Indo-Europeans had arrived but had not yet evolved into separate languages.  However, he only suggested a handful of possible pre-Indo-European placenames.  If the copper age spread of IE is correct then that means that virtually no trace has survived of the languages of the first 6000 years of settlement in Scotland.  So, old languages do disappear leaving no traces sometimes. 

Anyway my point is I think there is a chance that areas of the north could have been Celtic speaking further back in time.  One thing that is probably the strongest bit of evidence is the Ciimbri and Teutones who are generally thought to have come from in and around Denmark.  Their very names are thought by many to be Celtic and their leaders had very Celtic names.  They could be evidence that Celtic may have been known in at least pockets around Scandinavia before the Germanic expansion totally engulfed them.  Personally I think its likely we are talking pockets because as others have pointed out this also is the homeland of the proto-Germanic cultures. 


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 05, 2010, 06:20:21 PM
Probably a mistake to assume that the language boundaries in 100BC are anything like they were in 1000BC.  Language fronts move, often only leaving small residual traces of the previous state of affairs.  I have a book on Scottish placenames that breaks them down period by period for example.  It lists English, Norse, Norman, Gaelic, P-Celtic names and even suggests a category of rivernames that belong to a period when Indo-Europeans had arrived but had not yet evolved into separate languages.  However, he only suggested a handful of possible pre-Indo-European placenames.  If the copper age spread of IE is correct then that means that virtually no trace has survived of the languages of the first 6000 years of settlement in Scotland.  So, old languages do disappear leaving no traces sometimes. 

Anyway my point is I think there is a chance that areas of the north could have been Celtic speaking further back in time.  One thing that is probably the strongest bit of evidence is the Ciimbri and Teutones who are generally thought to have come from in and around Denmark.  Their very names are thought by many to be Celtic and their leaders had very Celtic names.  They could be evidence that Celtic may have been known in at least pockets around Scandinavia before the Germanic expansion totally engulfed them.  Personally I think its likely we are talking pockets because as others have pointed out this also is the homeland of the proto-Germanic cultures. 

I do remember reading that the kings of the Cimbri had Celtic names... That is very interesting. Didn't Hubert write about that?


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2010, 06:21:35 PM

The Myres and genetic genealogist data are saying pretty much the same thing.  not a heck of a log of U152 in Scanadinavia (circa 3% total perhaps) but highly concentrated in very specific areas such that locally the percentage may riise to 10% or so.  A large triangle circumscribing the Vik from the head to the mouth of Oslofjord; and northern and eastern Jutland (including the island of Fyn).  There is one outlier from Stockholm, and another from the middke of Finalnd and that is it - so far.  This distribution could not be more different from what we see with L21.  These two S116 subclades have a very different history in Scandinavia - that much we can take to the bank at this point.


I don't believe Myres et al did any sampling in Norway, and even the hobbyist results show very little U152 in Norway: only a handful, certainly not enough to talk about any trends or real patterns.

It's plain enough what you are getting at: you want to scaffold an argument that U152 in England is "viking" by arguing that the scant U152 found in Norway must be native because it is found "circumscribing the Vik from the head to the mouth of Oslofjord".

For some reason you feel you must chalk up L21, on the other hand,  to the viking slave trade.

That is the obvious reason for the following somewhat snide remark:

Quote
These two S116 subclades have a very different history in Scandinavia - that much we can take to the bank at this point.

From what I can see, the main difference between U152 and L21 in Scandinavia is that there appears to be a lot more of the latter there than the former.

Some of the L21 in Scandinavia may in fact be due to the Viking Era slave trade, but it doesn't seem likely that all of it is. And if some of the L21 in Scandinavia can be attributed to the viking slave trade, then certainly so can some of the U106 and the U152, since both of those clades are also found in the British Isles, and the vikings can hardly have dna tested their victims to be sure they only nabbed the L21s.

You know, if you want to make U152 out to be a "viking" clade, fine. I mean, really, who cares? Knock yourself out.

But you really ought to be able to indulge yourself without the need to relegate others to the status of the descendants of slaves.





Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 05, 2010, 06:22:15 PM
I would really encourage people to look at the Cimbri Wiki page.  To me all the positive evidence suggests they were Celtic and only negative evidence is used to say they were not.  


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2010, 06:24:31 PM
I would really encourage people to look at the Cimbri Wiki page.  To me all the positive evidence suggests they were Celtic and only negative evidence is used to say they were not.  

And Myres et al, as I recall without dredging the dratted thing up again, found very very little U152 in Denmark, correct?


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 05, 2010, 07:09:26 PM
I would really encourage people to look at the Cimbri Wiki page.  To me all the positive evidence suggests they were Celtic and only negative evidence is used to say they were not.  

And Myres et al, as I recall without dredging the dratted thing up again, found very very little U152 in Denmark, correct?

That is what I recall.  Practically no U152 and quite a lot of L21 concentrated into certain areas.  That is one of DF's theories that is not helped by the Myres study. 



Another thing.  I do not know a lot about the Geography of Denamark but my understanding is that the Cimbri have been linked to the area called Himmerland which which may mean 'Cimbri land' with the usual Germanic shift.  Now Himmerland is described as NE Jutland.  My understanding is that the L21 hotspot is NE Denmark rather than the NW as some might assume.  That is interesting if L21 has a hotspot in the very area associated with the Cimbri.   


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2010, 07:12:30 PM


Another thing.  I do not know a lot about the Geography of Denamark but my understanding is that the Cimbri have been linked to the area called Himmerland which which may mean 'Cimbri land' with the usual Germanic shift.  Now Himmerland is described as NE Jutland.  My understanding is that the L21 hotspot is NE Denmark rather than the NW as some might assume.  That is interesting if L21 has a hotspot in the very area associated with the Cimbri.   

Interesting, and that is on topic for this thread, since it is about L21 in Scandinavia and not U152, which appears to be pretty scarce there anyway.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 05, 2010, 07:13:06 PM
I would really encourage people to look at the Cimbri Wiki page.  To me all the positive evidence suggests they were Celtic and only negative evidence is used to say they were not.  

And Myres et al, as I recall without dredging the dratted thing up again, found very very little U152 in Denmark, correct?

That is what I recall.  Practically no U152 and quite a lot of L21 concentrated into certain areas.  That is one of DF's theories that is not helped by the Myres study. 



Another thing.  I do not know a lot about the Geography of Denamark but my understanding is that the Cimbri have been linked to the area called Himmerland which which may mean 'Cimbri land' with the usual Germanic shift.  Now Himmerland is described as NE Jutland.  My understanding is that the L21 hotspot is NE Denmark rather than the NW as some might assume.  That is interesting if L21 has a hotspot in the very area associated with the Cimbri.   

Yet another thought.  The east side of Denmark is where the Elbe links empties into the North Sea.  At the other end of the Elbe is Austria, another unexpected L21 hotspot.  The Elbe route was very important in the Late Bronze Age according to Cunliffe's recent book.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Norwich on September 05, 2010, 07:15:32 PM
These words are Mare Morusa (Dead Sea - Baltic Sea) and Mare Congelium (spelling? but means frozen) from the sea between Sweden and Finland.  Celtic scholars have reported that these are indisputably Celtic words.  Pliny the Elder reported these facts, quoting a Greek historian who flourished circa 325 BC.  The region where these people lived is, oddly (or not), the only place where U152 is today found in Denmark.  The archaeological artifacts are also only from this said area.

Certainly Mare Morusa and Mare Congelium are Latin words. Probably Plyny the Elder translated these words in Latin, otherwise, if they are really the original words, we should think to Italics as the inhabitants of those regions. It is probably not believable, but R-U152 could have come from Italy, which retains the highest numbers and variance of this haplogroup.

Sorry, I was going on raw memory and at my age, that is definitely not a wise approach.  Here is the qactual quote from theat I was recalling:

"Pliny the Elder (circa 77 AD) who stated that Philemon wrote that, the
Cimbris word Morimarusa means the Dead Sea, as far as the Promentory of Rubeas,
beyond which they name it the Cronian Sea (“Naturalis Historiae”, Libri IV, xiii, line
95). The word “Morimarusa”, referring to the Baltic Sea, is composed of ‘muir’ and
‘marbh’ in Q-Celt Irish; ‘mor’ and ‘maro’ / ‘marw’ in P-Celt languages such as Breton
and Welsh. Importantly, there is no Germanic word in any dialect that would even
approximate these root elements (Wikipedia entry for “Cimbri”). Furthermore, Thierry
(1828) notes that ‘crwnn’ means coagulated or frozen, and in Gallic, cronn has the same
meaning; Murchroinn equals ‘icy sea’."


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Norwich on September 05, 2010, 07:18:28 PM
I would really encourage people to look at the Cimbri Wiki page.  To me all the positive evidence suggests they were Celtic and only negative evidence is used to say they were not.  

And Myres et al, as I recall without dredging the dratted thing up again, found very very little U152 in Denmark, correct?
4.5% in two key locations in Denmark - a good deal more than the L21 located in Germany (for example).

I see no reason why L21 and U152 could not have been members of the same tribal unit and moved to NE Jutland together.  Perhaps this might give a hint as to where some L21 was in 425 BC - between the Rhine and the Elbe?


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2010, 07:31:25 PM
Something is clearly amiss with Myres' German sampling. I'm not sure what it is, but it runs far too contrary to what we have seen with FTDNA test results. Myres et al don't seem to have made much of an effort to acquire a representative sample. Take France, for example, where most of the numbers seem to have come from the South and the East, and Northern France was left out entirely.

I don't recall there being that much U152 in Denmark anywhere, but that is another funny thing about Myres. In places it shows zero U152 in Scandinavia, and in others it seems to show a little. I wonder how many samples those "4.5%" figures represent.

Of course, if you want to talk about U152 in Scandinavia you should start a thread on that subject. This one is about L21 in Scandinavia.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 05, 2010, 07:38:27 PM
I would really encourage people to look at the Cimbri Wiki page.  To me all the positive evidence suggests they were Celtic and only negative evidence is used to say they were not.  

And Myres et al, as I recall without dredging the dratted thing up again, found very very little U152 in Denmark, correct?
4.5% in two key locations in Denmark - a good deal more than the L21 located in Germany (for example).

I see no reason why L21 and U152 could not have been members of the same tribal unit and moved to NE Jutland together.  Perhaps this might give a hint as to where some L21 was in 425 BC - between the Rhine and the Elbe?


I would be astonished if the SW Germany L21 result in the recent study is not some kind of sample aberration.  It is so far removed from the proportion of self testing SW Germans where L21 has a very decent showing in the Rhineland and neighbouring areas. Its the one result of the study I simply do not believe is representative in terms of L21 (the rest is lower than expected but essentially compatible with the project maps).  Some sort of tapering off from France to Austria with maybe 8% of males L21 in SW Germany would make a lot more sense.    

I accept the point about mixed groups.  I really do not think pure one-clade or even one-haplotype groups existed in the late prehistoric period except in areas where founder effects had happened.  

I certainly think the positive evidence all seems to point to the Cimbri being Celts.  I wonder if they did not expand up the Elbe from the Czech and Austria zone in an attempt to control trade.  That was a big deal at times in late prehistory.  Amber for metal resources.    


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Norwich on September 05, 2010, 07:40:16 PM

The Myres and genetic genealogist data are saying pretty much the same thing.  not a heck of a log of U152 in Scanadinavia (circa 3% total perhaps) but highly concentrated in very specific areas such that locally the percentage may riise to 10% or so.  A large triangle circumscribing the Vik from the head to the mouth of Oslofjord; and northern and eastern Jutland (including the island of Fyn).  There is one outlier from Stockholm, and another from the middke of Finalnd and that is it - so far.  This distribution could not be more different from what we see with L21.  These two S116 subclades have a very different history in Scandinavia - that much we can take to the bank at this point.


I don't believe Myres et al did any sampling in Norway, and even the hobbyist results show very little U152 in Norway: only a handful, certainly not enough to talk about any trends or real patterns.

It's plain enough what you are getting at: you want to scaffold an argument that U152 in England is "viking" by arguing that the scant U152 found in Norway must be native because it is found "circumscribing the Vik from the head to the mouth of Oslofjord".

For some reason you feel you must chalk up L21, on the other hand,  to the viking slave trade.

That is the obvious reason for the following somewhat snide remark:

Quote
These two S116 subclades have a very different history in Scandinavia - that much we can take to the bank at this point.

From what I can see, the main difference between U152 and L21 in Scandinavia is that there appears to be a lot more of the latter there than the former.

Some of the L21 in Scandinavia may in fact be due to the Viking Era slave trade, but it doesn't seem likely that all of it is. And if some of the L21 in Scandinavia can be attributed to the viking slave trade, then certainly so can some of the U106 and the U152, since both of those clades are also found in the British Isles, and the vikings can hardly have dna tested their victims to be sure they only nabbed the L21s.

You know, if you want to make U152 out to be a "viking" clade, fine. I mean, really, who cares? Knock yourself out.

But you really ought to be able to indulge yourself without the need to relegate others to the status of the descendants of slaves.

I think you are generalizing and certainly putting words in my mouth.  Rather a touchy subject - it is just a Y chromsome, nothing to get hot under the collar about.  The goal is to, without fear of intimidation, propose sensible reasons for what we see today, with the realiszation that this may not be a very precise indicatior of what was apparent in for example the Iron Age.  It is clear that Canute brought back Britons to do his fighting in Scandinavia - these can hardly be thought of as "slaves".  Charles broght thousands of Britons to do his dirty work against the hapless Saxons in the 800s.  All were rewarded with land in the Thuringia region of Germany.  These are not pathetic thralls, but valued allies.  The point is that there is historical evidence of a back migration to both Scandinavia and Germany of L21 (or more correctly, whatever haplogroup Britons tended to possess at the time).

I am truly sorry that things didn't work out according to your expectations.  Hopefully Myres is not the last word on the subject.

The apparent key to understanding the origins of L21 in Scandinavia is a haplotype analysis (do they have a lot of matches with Britosn?), and whether M222 Niall, South Irish, and Irish Type III are found in Scandinavia.  If the answer is yes, then in all probability the arrival there is recent.  Just one reason for L21's presence is historically attested commercial activity which would involve Bergen Norway and Goteburg Sweden as an example.  I think that this can all be sorted out - but less of a chance with say U152 which has little subclade structure.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 05, 2010, 07:42:37 PM
 would be astonished if the SW Germany L21 result in the recent study is not some kind of sample aberration.  It is so far removed from the proportion of self testing SW Germans where L21 has a very decent showing in the Rhineland and neighbouring areas. Its the one result of the study I simply do not believe is representative in terms of L21 (the rest is lower than expected but essentially compatible with the project maps).  Some sort of tapering off from France to Austria with maybe 8% of males L21 in SW Germany would make a lot more sense.    

I accept the point about mixed groups.  I really do not think pure one-clade or even one-haplotype groups existed in the late prehistoric period except in areas where founder effects had happened.  

I certainly think the positive evidence all seems to point to the Cimbri being Celts.  I wonder if they did not expand up the Elbe from the Czech and Austria zone in an attempt to control trade.  That was a big deal at times in late prehistory.  Amber for metal resources.    


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2010, 07:46:57 PM
. . .
I am truly sorry that things didn't work out according to your expectations.  Hopefully Myres is not the last word on the subject.

And that is precisely why you are here, isn't it, David?

You are back at it, arguing the same old things, but now triumphantly armed with what I am sure is now your favorite study.

Please, if you must indulge your "Viking U152" thing, do so on another thread.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Norwich on September 05, 2010, 10:52:39 PM
would be astonished if the SW Germany L21 result in the recent study is not some kind of sample aberration.  It is so far removed from the proportion of self testing SW Germans where L21 has a very decent showing in the Rhineland and neighbouring areas. Its the one result of the study I simply do not believe is representative in terms of L21 (the rest is lower than expected but essentially compatible with the project maps).  Some sort of tapering off from France to Austria with maybe 8% of males L21 in SW Germany would make a lot more sense.    

I accept the point about mixed groups.  I really do not think pure one-clade or even one-haplotype groups existed in the late prehistoric period except in areas where founder effects had happened.  

I certainly think the positive evidence all seems to point to the Cimbri being Celts.  I wonder if they did not expand up the Elbe from the Czech and Austria zone in an attempt to control trade.  That was a big deal at times in late prehistory.  Amber for metal resources.    
Humm, perhaps we can come up with a hypothesis here.  If U152 and L21 were perhaps two of the groups which made up the massive capital of Noricum (Austria) at Magdelensburg (Klagenfurt today), their commercial entrepeneurial predilections may have brought them together to strongarm a takeover of the amber trade (by the the Cimbri and the Teutones). 

The distribution of the two haplogroups in Denmark seems to overlap ((e.g., both zero in East Denmark but together about 15% of North Denmark).  In 113 BC a supposed 300,00 of these tribesmen of the north headed on an oddessey which took them to all corners of the Celtic world - supposedly looking for a place to settle (what, the climiate of Denmark was not to their liking?).  They apparently destroyed the seemingly impregnable Magdelensburg which was the most massive hillfort I think in all Europe at the time.  Did they leave a contingent there to "hold the fort so to speak" while others went on to meet their destiny in 101 BC at Vericellae Italy. 

The unusual L21 hotspot in Austria needs an explanation - I am scratching around here.  Anyway, when the reemenants retuirned to their homeland in Denmark they seem to have simply taken up where they left off - minus a few hundred thousand of their men and women.

What is interesting is that the Niederstatter Austrian data indicated 7% U152, and the Myres data about 6% L21.  So ----------- well I am not sure but perhaps it means something in relation to the same haplogroups in Denmark :-)


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Norwich on September 05, 2010, 11:10:38 PM
. . .
I am truly sorry that things didn't work out according to your expectations.  Hopefully Myres is not the last word on the subject.

And that is precisely why you are here, isn't it, David?

You are back at it, arguing the same old things, but now triumphantly armed with what I am sure is now your favorite study.

Please, if you must indulge your "Viking U152" thing, do so on another thread.
Norwich here.  Comparing and contrasting U106, L21, U152, SRY2627 can be very productive for those who are intent on ferreting out the truth.  Sorry, don't know what you mean re Viking U152 - is this in one of my postings, and what does that have to do with the price of cheeze in China or the distribution of L21 - which you said is very disappointing via the Myres study.  I have some bones to pick about other haplogroups too - but this is a landmark study.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 05, 2010, 11:30:03 PM
would be astonished if the SW Germany L21 result in the recent study is not some kind of sample aberration.  It is so far removed from the proportion of self testing SW Germans where L21 has a very decent showing in the Rhineland and neighbouring areas. Its the one result of the study I simply do not believe is representative in terms of L21 (the rest is lower than expected but essentially compatible with the project maps).  Some sort of tapering off from France to Austria with maybe 8% of males L21 in SW Germany would make a lot more sense.    

I accept the point about mixed groups.  I really do not think pure one-clade or even one-haplotype groups existed in the late prehistoric period except in areas where founder effects had happened.  

I certainly think the positive evidence all seems to point to the Cimbri being Celts.  I wonder if they did not expand up the Elbe from the Czech and Austria zone in an attempt to control trade.  That was a big deal at times in late prehistory.  Amber for metal resources.    
Humm, perhaps we can come up with a hypothesis here.  If U152 and L21 were perhaps two of the groups which made up the massive capital of Noricum (Austria) at Magdelensburg (Klagenfurt today), their commercial entrepeneurial predilections may have brought them together to strongarm a takeover of the amber trade (by the the Cimbri and the Teutones).  

The distribution of the two haplogroups in Denmark seems to overlap ((e.g., both zero in East Denmark but together about 15% of North Denmark).  In 113 BC a supposed 300,00 of these tribesmen of the north headed on an oddessey which took them to all corners of the Celtic world - supposedly looking for a place to settle (what, the climiate of Denmark was not to their liking?).  They apparently destroyed the seemingly impregnable Magdelensburg which was the most massive hillfort I think in all Europe at the time.  Did they leave a contingent there to "hold the fort so to speak" while others went on to meet their destiny in 101 BC at Vericellae Italy.  

The unusual L21 hotspot in Austria needs an explanation - I am scratching around here.  Anyway, when the reemenants retuirned to their homeland in Denmark they seem to have simply taken up where they left off - minus a few hundred thousand of their men and women.

What is interesting is that the Niederstatter Austrian data indicated 7% U152, and the Myres data about 6% L21.  So ----------- well I am not sure but perhaps it means something in relation to the same haplogroups in Denmark :-)

I think U152 is more confined to places such as Southern Germany/Switzerland than L21. The latter is most likely the largest represented subclade of R1b in Norway, and is present throughout Sweden and Denmark. An earlier study of Myres pointed out that 50% of Danish R1b1b2 was U106-. It's too bad the sampling frame from Denmark is underrepresented.

Now, small numbers of U152 could have traveled with L21 northwards but it seems that the former could be just as likely a recent import because of lower frequencies.

And the Cimbri being identified as Celtic is still debatable.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 06, 2010, 12:10:36 AM
These words are Mare Morusa (Dead Sea - Baltic Sea) and Mare Congelium (spelling? but means frozen) from the sea between Sweden and Finland.  Celtic scholars have reported that these are indisputably Celtic words.  Pliny the Elder reported these facts, quoting a Greek historian who flourished circa 325 BC.  The region where these people lived is, oddly (or not), the only place where U152 is today found in Denmark.  The archaeological artifacts are also only from this said area.

Certainly Mare Morusa and Mare Congelium are Latin words. Probably Plyny the Elder translated these words in Latin, otherwise, if they are really the original words, we should think to Italics as the inhabitants of those regions. It is probably not believable, but R-U152 could have come from Italy, which retains the highest numbers and variance of this haplogroup.

Sorry, I was going on raw memory and at my age, that is definitely not a wise approach.  Here is the qactual quote from theat I was recalling:

"Pliny the Elder (circa 77 AD) who stated that Philemon wrote that, the
Cimbris word Morimarusa means the Dead Sea, as far as the Promentory of Rubeas,
beyond which they name it the Cronian Sea (“Naturalis Historiae”, Libri IV, xiii, line
95). The word “Morimarusa”, referring to the Baltic Sea, is composed of ‘muir’ and
‘marbh’ in Q-Celt Irish; ‘mor’ and ‘maro’ / ‘marw’ in P-Celt languages such as Breton
and Welsh. Importantly, there is no Germanic word in any dialect that would even
approximate these root elements (Wikipedia entry for “Cimbri”). Furthermore, Thierry
(1828) notes that ‘crwnn’ means coagulated or frozen, and in Gallic, cronn has the same
meaning; Murchroinn equals ‘icy sea’."

Of course I have analysed your words, marking the parts of the words that were Latin. If you say "Morimorusa" it is all different: there isn't more "mar" but "mor" and "mar-usa" and not "mor-usa". Indo-European languages have the same origin, but Latin "mare" ="sea" is different from "mor", and "mar-usa" is different from "mor-usa" if did mean "mor-tuum" or similar.  If the words are these, your analysis is more believable.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on September 06, 2010, 07:43:08 AM
Let's take a look back at Table S4 of the recent Myres et al study at the sample sizes for Denmark and Sweden. There is no indication that any Norwegians were tested at all.

Denmark East = 17

Denmark Island (east) = 10

Denmark North = 42

Denmark Southeast = 22

Denmark West = 19

Sweden South (Malmö) = 139


Most of the sample sizes are pretty small. Only Malmö in Sweden had a decent sample size. The sample sizes for "Denmark East" and "Denmark Island (east)" are so small as to be nearly irrelevant, at least if the intent was to focus on those specific regions. Their chief significance, it seems to me, is their contribution to the total Danish sample.

So, here are the L21 results from those regions.

Denmark East = 0

Denmark Island (east) = 0

Denmark North = 9.5% (4 out 42)

Denmark Southeast = 9.1% (2 out of 22)

Denmark West = 5.3% (1 out of 19)

Sweden South (Malmö) = 5.8% (8 out of 139)


So, in Denmark as a whole, based on Table S4, there were 7 L21+ results (out 110) or about 6.4% of the total sample. In Sweden, obviously, the results weren't too different, at close to 6% (5.8%).

Overall, there were 15 L21+ results out of a total Scandinavian sample of 249, which comes to 6%.

It would have been nice if Myres et al had tested 100 or so Norwegians.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on September 06, 2010, 07:51:08 AM
Let's take a look back at Table S4 of the recent Myres et al study at the sample sizes for Denmark and Sweden. There is no indication that any Norwegians were tested at all.

Denmark East = 17

Denmark Island (east) = 10

Denmark North = 42

Denmark Southeast = 22

Denmark West = 19

Sweden South (Malmö) = 139


Most of the sample sizes are pretty small. Only Malmö in Sweden had a decent sample size. The sample sizes for "Denmark East" and "Denmark Island (east)" are so small as to be nearly irrelevant, at least if the intent was to focus on those specific regions. Their chief significance, it seems to me, is their contribution to the total Danish sample.

So, here are the L21 results from those regions.

Denmark East = 0

Denmark Island (east) = 0

Denmark North = 9.5% (4 out 42)

Denmark Southeast = 9.1% (2 out of 22)

Denmark West = 5.3% (1 out of 19)

Sweden South (Malmö) = 5.8% (8 out of 139)


So, in Denmark as a whole, based on Table S4, there were 7 L21+ results (out 110) or about 6.4% of the total sample. In Sweden, obviously, the results weren't too different, at close to 6% (5.8%).

Overall, there were 15 L21+ results out of a total Scandinavian sample of 249, which comes to 6%.

It would have been nice if Myres et al had tested 100 or so Norwegians.


So, if R1b1b2 is about 40% of Danish y-dna (I think that's about right), that means, based on Myres anyway, that L21 is roughly 16% of Danish R1b1b2.

In Sweden, however, R1b1b2 is only about 20-25% of the y-dna. Therefore, if Myres' sampling is at all representative, then L21 is about 23-29% of Swedish R1b1b2.

EDIT: I should note that we are talking about L21 xM222 in all of the above. I should also add that, according to Myres' Table S4, there were 1 or at the most 2 M222s in the entire Scandinavian sample of 249 men (in Malmö, Sweden).


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on October 03, 2010, 03:54:29 PM
The discovery of a “sealed” Stone Age house site from 3500 BC has stirred great excitement among archaeologists from Norway’s Museum of Cultural History at the University in Oslo. The settlement site at Hamresanden, close to Kristiansand’s airport at Kjevik in Southern Norway, looks like it was covered by a sandstorm, possibly in the course of a few hours.

more....
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2010/10/01/archaeologists-find-mini-pompeii/


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2010, 11:53:08 AM
..... I should note that we are talking about L21 xM222 in all of the above. I should also add that, according to Myres' Table S4, there were 1 or at the most 2 M222s in the entire Scandinavian sample of 249 men (in Malmö, Sweden).
This seems to imply that those who claim the Vikings took a bunch Irishmen/boys back to Scandinavia don't have much to stand on.  Therefore, L21* must have already been there.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Jdean on October 04, 2010, 12:56:59 PM
..... I should note that we are talking about L21 xM222 in all of the above. I should also add that, according to Myres' Table S4, there were 1 or at the most 2 M222s in the entire Scandinavian sample of 249 men (in Malmö, Sweden).
This seems to imply that those who claim the Vikings took a bunch Irishmen/boys back to Scandinavia don't have much to stand on.  Therefore, L21* must have already been there.

I think it's rather odd that none of the people who are keen on this idea are willing to be drawn into a conversation regarding the apparent lack of Irish DNA in Scandinavia.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: eochaidh on October 04, 2010, 11:27:29 PM
..... I should note that we are talking about L21 xM222 in all of the above. I should also add that, according to Myres' Table S4, there were 1 or at the most 2 M222s in the entire Scandinavian sample of 249 men (in Malmö, Sweden).
This seems to imply that those who claim the Vikings took a bunch Irishmen/boys back to Scandinavia don't have much to stand on.  Therefore, L21* must have already been there.

I think it's rather odd that none of the people who are keen on this idea are willing to be drawn into a conversation regarding the apparent lack of Irish DNA in Scandinavia.

There is no such thing as Irish DNA. The last I heard M222 was Continental (unless Alan has changed his mind).  All L21 in Ireland comes from the Continent. All DNA of any type found in Ireland comes from the Continent.

I am a first generation Irish-American, but my DNA (Y, mtDNA, and Autosomal) is Continental. This case was closed a very long time ago.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe (German... or maybe French.. or Dutch...  )


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 05, 2010, 09:32:51 AM
..... I should note that we are talking about L21 xM222 in all of the above. I should also add that, according to Myres' Table S4, there were 1 or at the most 2 M222s in the entire Scandinavian sample of 249 men (in Malmö, Sweden).
This seems to imply that those who claim the Vikings took a bunch Irishmen/boys back to Scandinavia don't have much to stand on.  Therefore, L21* must have already been there.
I think it's rather odd that none of the people who are keen on this idea are willing to be drawn into a conversation regarding the apparent lack of Irish DNA in Scandinavia.
There is no such thing as Irish DNA. The last I heard M222 was Continental  (unless Alan has changed his mind).  ...
I don't know if that was Alan. That may have been Jean putting out what I think she called a speculation, which is fine (and I appreciate); or me just trying to get some attention on Myres' strange M222 5% frequency in in Germany.

If you are saying there is no one DNA type that is Irish, I agree.  If you are saying many subclades cross boundaries beyond Ireland, I agree with that too.

Of course, every Irish man or woman has DNA, though.  The challenge isn't to decide who's Irish and who's not.  People can decide for themselves.  To do that they'll have to define what's an Irishman and what's not.  Is a person who never spoke a Celtic language but lived on the "green" island before the Celtic language arrived Irish?  How about an English landowner (or Norman) who's family has been in Ireland for 400 years or 800 years? Is a farmer in Nebraska who's lineage used to live in Ireland for 700 years but probably never spoke Gaelic, Irish?

The challenge is to find what subclades one is associated with at a finer and finer level and then to see if there is a pattern for disbursement that could be a backward trail through time and geography.

You can call yourself whatever you want. Different historians and other writers may have put different labels on your lineages at different points in time as well. Take your pick.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 05, 2010, 07:17:45 PM
..... I should note that we are talking about L21 xM222 in all of the above. I should also add that, according to Myres' Table S4, there were 1 or at the most 2 M222s in the entire Scandinavian sample of 249 men (in Malmö, Sweden).
This seems to imply that those who claim the Vikings took a bunch Irishmen/boys back to Scandinavia don't have much to stand on.  Therefore, L21* must have already been there.

I think it's rather odd that none of the people who are keen on this idea are willing to be drawn into a conversation regarding the apparent lack of Irish DNA in Scandinavia.

There is no such thing as Irish DNA. The last I heard M222 was Continental (unless Alan has changed his mind).  All L21 in Ireland comes from the Continent. All DNA of any type found in Ireland comes from the Continent.

I am a first generation Irish-American, but my DNA (Y, mtDNA, and Autosomal) is Continental. This case was closed a very long time ago.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe (German... or maybe French.. or Dutch...  )

Noone has ever nor do they now know where M222 originated.  Its always speculation in this hobby.  It clearly expanded mostly in Ireland and therefore is a very high probability of an ancestor from NW Ireland in terms of genealogy.  However where the SNP first occurred is not the same thing as its main expansion.  It is also known in SW Scotland.  I believe too from Mike's (I think) posts in the past that the group with NW Irish type STRs but who are M222 negative are most represented in SW Scotland (if I recall correctly).  It was suggested that that group could be a pre-M222 group.  So SW Scotland as a place with both M222 and the possibly ancestral pre-M222 could be the area where M222 first happened.  There is no certainty but its an interesting hypothesis.  SW Scotland was where a tribe called the Damnoni was located and Irish legend mentions a people called the Fir Domnain who may be the same people.  Again an interesting hypothesis but uncertain.  On the other hand as Mike posted there is (unless it is an error) a surprising amount of M222 on parts of the continent in Myres study and its not clear what we should think of that. Finally there have been posted a number of variance calculations on this site for M222 since the Myres study and they pointed to England as having a very high variance, something that is usually thought of as an indicator of ancientness.  So there you have it-its either Ireland, Scotland, England or the continent! I cant see this getting resolved now. The reason I think this is that where an SNP first occurs, it will be definition initially be in one single person.  The chances of the first expansion and growth being on the same spot that the SNP occurred seems remote to me.  It seems more likely that an SNP will expand where a splinter group or individual moves on to virgin territory and fills it with descendants with the SNP.  The distance between the origin point and the expansion point could be anything from very little to half a continent.  Basically as far as I can understand variance is only likely to pick up the earliest significant expansion point not the origin point. I am very pessimistic that real origin points of SNPs can be detected now.   


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: GoldenHind on October 05, 2010, 07:25:55 PM
[quote author=alan trowel hands. link=topic=9446.msg120911#msg120911

Noone has ever nor do they now know where M222 originated.  Its always speculation in this hobby.  It clearly expanded mostly in Ireland and therefore is a very high probability of an ancestor from NW Ireland in terms of genealogy.  However where the SNP first occurred is not the same thing as its main expansion.  It is also known in SW Scotland.  I believe too from Mike's (I think) posts in the past that the group with NW Irish type STRs but who are M222 negative are most represented in SW Scotland (if I recall correctly).  It was suggested that that group could be a pre-M222 group.  So SW Scotland as a place with both M222 and the possibly ancestral pre-M222 could be the area where M222 first happened.  There is no certainty but its an interesting hypothesis.  SW Scotland was where a tribe called the Damnoni was located and Irish legend mentions a people called the Fir Domnain who may be the same people.  Again an interesting hypothesis but uncertain.  On the other hand as Mike posted there is (unless it is an error) a surprising amount of M222 on parts of the continent in Myres study and its not clear what we should think of that. Finally there have been posted a number of variance calculations on this site for M222 since the Myres study and they pointed to England as having a very high variance, something that is usually thought of as an indicator of ancientness.  So there you have it-its either Ireland, Scotland, England or the continent! I cant see this getting resolved now. The reason I think this is that where an SNP first occurs, it will be definition initially be in one single person.  The chances of the first expansion and growth being on the same spot that the SNP occurred seems remote to me.  It seems more likely that an SNP will expand where a splinter group or individual moves on to virgin territory and fills it with descendants with the SNP.  The distance between the origin point and the expansion point could be anything from very little to half a continent.  Basically as far as I can understand variance is only likely to pick up the earliest significant expansion point not the origin point. I am very pessimistic that real origin points of SNPs can be detected now.   
[/quote]

I have been accused of "playing games" when trying to make exactly this point. Why some people are unable to understand the distiction is beyond me.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: eochaidh on October 05, 2010, 09:44:46 PM
Like I said, there is no Irish DNA.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Jean M on October 06, 2010, 08:21:47 AM
Noone has ever nor do they now know where M222 originated. ...   So SW Scotland as a place with both M222 and the possibly ancestral pre-M222 could be the area where M222 first happened.  There is no certainty but its an interesting hypothesis.  SW Scotland was where a tribe called the Damnoni was located and Irish legend mentions a people called the Fir Domnain who may be the same people.  

That is an interesting idea, but the Fir Domnain are not the best fit on current information. The name occurs in Inber Domnann (Malahide Bay, Co. Dublin), and more frequently in north-west Mayo as Iorrais Domnann (Erris, Co. Mayo) and the nearby Mag Domnann and Dun Domnann. An early Irish poem describes one of their leaders as the over-king of Leinster.

My own speculation was that M222 could be a La Tene marker. That is what I currently say on a couple of pages of Distant Past (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/): the main P of E and the Celtic Tribes page. That seems a better fit to the distribution pattern as so far known, and gives more time and opportunity for the present density to build up.

The low point for the Irish climate was 250 BC to 250 AD. La Tene material arrived at the start of that cycle, so M222 arriving then and sticking out the hard times and population fall, would be in a position to expand as times improved. I would guess that there was little incentive for people to move to Ireland during the worst of the wet cycle. So the Cruithne in various parts would probably have arrived 300 AD onwards - later than Ptolemy's map. So they are not shown on it.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Jean M on October 06, 2010, 08:38:39 AM
Like I said, there is no Irish DNA.

If you mean mutations that first occurred in Ireland, there are almost certain to be quite a few. According to Mike Whalen's cheat sheet (http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/topic/3133-cheat-sheet-for-r1b-irish-haplogroups/), we already have candidates on the Y-chromosome.  

L226/S168 = Irish type III = Dalcassian.

L144/L195/S175 looks promising for Whalen and a few other surnames.

If course there is no Y-DNA signature that fits every man with Irish heritage and does not not fit anyone without it. For that to work, the Irish would have had to arrive from Mars or Fairyland and refuse to stir from the Emerald Isle or marry out of it from then on.  Come to think of it, they wouldn't be able to marry out with fertile offspring if they were not of the race of mere mortals. :) 



Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 06, 2010, 09:27:39 AM
... If you mean mutations that first occurred in Ireland, there are almost certain to be quite a few...
Just a follow-up on Goldenhind's earlier comments. Technically, we'll probably never know where an SNP first occurred. What we are really tracking are points of expansion.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Jean M on October 06, 2010, 10:13:28 AM
... If you mean mutations that first occurred in Ireland, there are almost certain to be quite a few...
Just a follow-up on Goldenhind's earlier comments. Technically, we'll probably never know where an SNP first occurred. What we are really tracking are points of expansion.

I agree entirely. I just meant that, since mutations crop up all the time, it's unlikely that Ireland would escape ever having a mutation occur on its soil. 



Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on October 10, 2010, 09:04:17 PM
Edit:

I thought seeing as M222 is found in the north of Ireland it may have come to Ireland from Scotland, where it is also found.

I was wondering if M222 could have come to Scotland from Scandinavia.


Since posting this idea i was informed that the England also has M222, and a wider group. And Scandinavia has not many M222.








Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2010, 07:56:30 PM
I just got an email from a Danish guy who tested L21+ with 23andMe. I can't give you more info than that until I hear from him again, since I don't have his ancestral information.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 01, 2010, 12:03:08 AM
Does anyone know anything about this study? "Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden – A long-time perspective" by Karlsson.   http://tiny.cc/ojmug

They don't have R-M269 broken into subclades, just R1b3 - the label they use.
Quote from: Karlsson
Haplotypes belonging to R1b3 were shown to have the highest variance among the haplogroups found in Sweden. This was revealed by TMRCA analyses (Table 3), which show that the R1b3 haplotypes in Sweden have a common ancestor from around 9000 (3300–25 000) years ago.

Forget the TMRCA estimate, the thing that struck me is that R-M269 has the highest variance, which is indicative of relative age.

The haplotypes are here in Supplementary Table 2:  http://tiny.cc/jhddi

Does this make any sense? I was expecting some forms of I and N to have much higher variance in Sweden.



Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: MHammers on December 01, 2010, 12:40:34 AM
Does anyone know anything about this study? "Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden – A long-time perspective" by Karlsson.   http://tiny.cc/ojmug

They don't have R-M269 broken into subclades, just R1b3 - the label they use.
Quote from: Karlsson
Haplotypes belonging to R1b3 were shown to have the highest variance among the haplogroups found in Sweden. This was revealed by TMRCA analyses (Table 3), which show that the R1b3 haplotypes in Sweden have a common ancestor from around 9000 (3300–25 000) years ago.

Forget the TMRCA estimate, the thing that struck me is that R-M269 has the highest variance, which is indicative of relative age.

The haplotypes are here in Supplementary Table 2:  http://tiny.cc/jhddi

Does this make any sense? I was expecting some forms of I and N to have much higher variance in Sweden.



The R1b is almost all L51+, except for 3 L51- types in Ostergotland/Jonkoping.   I calculated the variance of the L51+ types and got .30, .24 without 385a/b.  This I compared to Myres L11* in Germany of .247, all U106+ in Estonia@.352 and Poland@.278.
However, Myres had for all P312+ in Denmark@.167 and Sweden@.172.  I think this is mostly  L11* or U106 in this study creating the higher variance, though there probably is a younger minority of P312 and L21 present as well.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: GoldenHind on December 02, 2010, 04:47:25 PM
Does anyone know anything about this study? "Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden – A long-time perspective" by Karlsson.   http://tiny.cc/ojmug

They don't have R-M269 broken into subclades, just R1b3 - the label they use.
Quote from: Karlsson
Haplotypes belonging to R1b3 were shown to have the highest variance among the haplogroups found in Sweden. This was revealed by TMRCA analyses (Table 3), which show that the R1b3 haplotypes in Sweden have a common ancestor from around 9000 (3300–25 000) years ago.

Forget the TMRCA estimate, the thing that struck me is that R-M269 has the highest variance, which is indicative of relative age.

The haplotypes are here in Supplementary Table 2:  http://tiny.cc/jhddi

Does this make any sense? I was expecting some forms of I and N to have much higher variance in Sweden.



I mentioned this study some time ago in a thread I started entitled R1b1b2 in Sweden. I was looking at it from a different angle though. To me the interesting thing was that R1b-M269 was the most common HG in two out of seven Swedish provinces sampled, and the authors indicated there was a significant difference between the DNA of R1bs on either side of Lake Vättern. I won't repeat the whole point. You can read my intital post on that thread. Unfortunately most of the following discussion turned into an argument on the P312/Celtic U106/Germanic issue, which was largely my fault.
 


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on January 14, 2011, 10:25:23 PM
A Norwegian in the R-P312 and Subclades Project got his L21+ result today: ancestral surname Halvorson, from Skien in Telemark, Ysearch YDH7S.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on January 15, 2011, 07:24:44 PM
A Norwegian in the R-P312 and Subclades Project got his L21+ result today: ancestral surname Halvorson, from Skien in Telemark, Ysearch YDH7S.

Excellent! This is in the eastern portion of Telemark, too.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on January 15, 2011, 08:31:27 PM
It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on January 16, 2011, 02:45:23 PM
It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.

Yes, for sure. Due to L21's numbers in Norway, I am starting to think that seafaring played a large part.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on January 16, 2011, 10:04:05 PM
It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.

Yes, for sure. Due to L21's numbers in Norway, I am starting to think that seafaring played a large part.

I'm wondering how we would come out percentage wise in Norway. Myres didn't sample Norway at all.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on January 16, 2011, 11:04:53 PM
It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.

Yes, for sure. Due to L21's numbers in Norway, I am starting to think that seafaring played a large part.

I'm wondering how we would come out percentage wise in Norway. Myres didn't sample Norway at all.

I hope future studies include L21 percentages, since it is clearly a major Western European subclade.

I'm surprised no one has done so yet.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: GoldenHind on January 17, 2011, 07:50:18 PM
It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.

Yes, for sure. Due to L21's numbers in Norway, I am starting to think that seafaring played a large part.

I'm wondering how we would come out percentage wise in Norway. Myres didn't sample Norway at all.
One certainly wouldn't be aware of that by looking at their U106 map. How did they come up with that?


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 17, 2011, 07:59:46 PM
I do wonder if L21 represented a clan or lineage who really took off due to some sort of power or importance that involved the seaways. Perhaps after playing 2nd fiddle to U152 in the central European zone (perhaps simply down to U152 being in existence a little earlier) it hit an opportunity to control another metal trade network as it entered the Atlantic facing rivers of France.  From there it may have had the benefit of contact with and access to sources and early metalworking traditions and expertise  from Iberia, perhaps forming a new rival network with the advantage of good metal sources all handily places along the major headlands of Atlantic Europe (Galcia, NW France, SW Ireland, Wales, Cornwall etc.  In prehistoric times it was far easier to transport small but precious goods by sea than by land.  

I think NW France was crucial in this and I suspect that somehow or other the arrival of S116 peoples with an L21 component in Atlantic France was crucial to the taking off of L21 and its entry into the isles.  From that position it might have had a strong control on the western seaways of the isles which were virgin territory as far as metal was concerned.  A NW French origin makes a lot of sense in terms of the beaker input to Atlantic areas of the isles in contrast to a direct Iberian one (Isles beakers and material is generally not of Iberian type).  In fact Humphrey Case said that the combination of beaker pot types and burial and metalwork traditions in Ireland would best be explained by an Atlantic French origin.  I suspect this is also probably true of Atlantic Britain.  

However, it is probably not true for eastern and much of southern Britain where the beaker groups had what some think of as a beaker-corded ware hybrid of cultural traits pointing to an input from nearer the Rhine.  Both the southern/eastern British and the Low countries groups shared a lack of ore.  Some think they (including those whose power is demonstrated at the beaker phases at Stonehenge) may have had a role as middle men controlling trade from the ore-rich Atlantic beaker zone to ore-poor north European plain.  

In this way there could have come about major difference in the clade patterns and cultural traits despite the shared ultimate roots not so long earlier as L11 folks.  

Perhaps L21 is part of a wider S116+/U152- domination of the seaways away from U152's heartlands.  There does seem to be a lot in that broad group along most of the Atlantic maritime areas from Iberia to Scandinavia.   Obviously for people who like ethnic labels this is going to be confusing as it straddles the Celtic and Germanic areas (including the heartlands of the latter) but I think its completely wrong to think that they had become two distinct groups at this time.  There is not clearcut reflection in the copper and most of the Bronze Age of the later Celtic-Germanic division along the Rhine or Main.  

I think we too easily try to back-project Celts and Germans of the Iron Age into far earlier times (c 2500BC) when most linguistics say Germanic was still 2000 years away from even coming into existence (c. 500BC).  People really want these kind of labels and ' Bronze Age west Indo-European speaker doesnt trip of the tongue enough.  Certainly prior to near the end of the Bronze Age I think the peoples of Europe were in far too much multi-directional trade and contact to be speaking separate languages.  I think that only came about when the networks started to get less widespread and more exclusive at the end of the Bronze Age (a date which varies depending on what part of Europe we are talking about). I say that as a generalisation because there could be some areas where geography dictated early linguistic separation through isolation.  The formation of a distinct German language that set them apart seems to have been particularly late.  
    


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on January 17, 2011, 08:11:57 PM
It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.

Yes, for sure. Due to L21's numbers in Norway, I am starting to think that seafaring played a large part.

I'm wondering how we would come out percentage wise in Norway. Myres didn't sample Norway at all.
One certainly wouldn't be aware of that by looking at their U106 map. How did they come up with that?

I wondered about that myself at the time the report came out.

Apparently they snatched it out of thin air, because Myres does not have any Norwegian samples.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on January 23, 2011, 05:23:56 PM
I wonder if any of the Vikings were R1b1b2 stock? Or is this strictly I Group?

http://www.pasthorizons.com/index.php/archives/01/2011/a-new-norse-saga-dna-detectives-find-vikings


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: GoldenHind on January 23, 2011, 05:43:42 PM
The idea that the Vikings were all HG I is simply nonsense.  R1b is the largest haplogroup in Denmark, and though outnumbered by HG I in Norway and Sweden, it still represents about a quarter or a fifth of the population in those countries. A study of Ydna in Swden a few yaers ago (I started a thread on the subject on this forum) showed that R1b outnumbers HG I in two of the seven Swedish provinces sampled. Although there are a few idiots who argue that all of R1b is Scandinavia is the result of Viking slaves, there is no reason to believe that the haplogroup composition in Scandinavia today is radically different from a thousand years ago.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on January 23, 2011, 06:33:03 PM
Apparently this study singles out R1a as Viking.
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczsteve/


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on January 24, 2011, 08:28:27 PM
The idea that the Vikings were all HG I is simply nonsense.  R1b is the largest haplogroup in Denmark, and though outnumbered by HG I in Norway and Sweden, it still represents about a quarter or a fifth of the population in those countries. A study of Ydna in Swden a few yaers ago (I started a thread on the subject on this forum) showed that R1b outnumbers HG I in two of the seven Swedish provinces sampled. Although there are a few idiots who argue that all of R1b is Scandinavia is the result of Viking slaves, there is no reason to believe that the haplogroup composition in Scandinavia today is radically different from a thousand years ago.

Actually, I believe R1b1b2 is about equal to I and R1a in Norway, each one accounting for about a third of the male population. Sweden is the y-hap I stronghold.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Jdean on January 24, 2011, 08:46:55 PM
Apparently this study singles out R1a as Viking.
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczsteve/

I get the feeling that R1a was singled out as an identifying marker of Viking presence rather than being 'the' Viking marker, if R1a is high than expected ergo there must have been Vikings in the area.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 25, 2011, 10:10:39 AM
Apparently this study singles out R1a as Viking.
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczsteve/

I get the feeling that R1a was singled out as an identifying marker of Viking presence rather than being 'the' Viking marker, if R1a is high than expected ergo there must have been Vikings in the area.
Yes, most men in Scandinavia, at least today, are not R1a, although it has a significant presence.  I think it's value is that it is diagnostic for detecting where Scandinavians expanded to since it is not prominent across Western Europe.  

However, I think there should be caution in assuming that 1) just because someone is R1a, he is a descendant of a Viking or that 2) Vikings were only R1a. #2 definitely isn't true, there certainly Hg I Vikings and probably R1b1b2 Vikings as well, perhaps some Hg N.  #1 may not be true because of possible early expansions of R1a.

R1a is scattered thinly across France and it was found in the Corded Ware culture in Germany, near the Czech Republic in ancient DNA - long before the Vikings.  R1a could have also spread through Western Europe in a early or mid Neolithic expansion.

"Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a" by Underhill et al.
Quote from: Underhill
Haplogroup R1a1a7-M458 diversity and frequency are highest in river basins known to be associated with several early and late Neolithic cultures... Beyond its spread in the Central European river basins, the LBK extended around the northern Carpathians into the steppe zone of Ukraine and participated in the establishment of the Cris¸culture.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on June 21, 2011, 08:45:48 PM
There's a new Norwegian R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project this evening: ancestral surname Gjon, Ysearch 2DP3C.

I don't know exactly where in Norway his ancestor came from yet. His only decent match is to another R-L21 Norwegian.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on June 23, 2011, 06:13:44 PM
There's a new Norwegian R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project this evening: ancestral surname Gjon, Ysearch 2DP3C.

I don't know exactly where in Norway his ancestor came from yet. His only decent match is to another R-L21 Norwegian.

The ancestral surname has been updated to Aase, and the y-dna ancestor came from the island of Dysvikholmen in the Hardangerfjord.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on June 27, 2011, 06:32:09 PM
A possible Norse burial ground has been found in Rush, North Dublin.
DNA testing would be very interesting.


http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/workers-find-ancient-burial-ground-2800228.html


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on June 28, 2011, 07:27:43 PM
It would be neat if they would just routinely start trying to get some y-dna and mtDNA (at least) from the remains uncovered at archaeological digs. It should just be standard operating procedure.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on July 04, 2011, 09:52:19 PM
It would be a good marketing tool for a company like Family Tree.
I think they should get in the thick of ancient dna testing.

Here is some recently found Norse treasure.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-13987176


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on July 18, 2011, 08:28:03 PM
Another new Norwegian R-L21 this evening: ancestral surname Gausel, Ysearch NAV8R, from near Stavanger.

His only decent matches are two other Norwegians, both of whom are 4 away at 37 markers.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on July 20, 2011, 06:36:28 PM
That's great news Rich.

On another note
My maternal ancestor was from the Isle of Skye Scotland, haplo group H3.
I have found a some H3 in the Finland Project. Maybe my mt ancestors were Viking Women? :))

Invasion of the Viking women unearthed
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2011/07/invasion-of-the-viking-women-unearthed/1


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2011, 02:42:33 PM
We added a new Danish R-L21 today: ancestral surname Larsen, Ysearch GDEUW, kit 208799. He tested L21+ with 23andMe.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: A.D. on September 09, 2011, 09:54:55 PM
It would be neat if they would just routinely start trying to get some y-dna and mtDNA (at least) from the remains uncovered at archaeological digs. It should just be standard operating procedure.

That and isotope testing telling us where they came from, ( i think carbon dating is done fairly routinely) it makes sense to do it and  set up a data base. it must be too expensive is the only reason i can think of for it not being done already.



Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on September 20, 2011, 07:03:18 AM
Although at a time before R-L21, I thought I'd post this link to a Mesolithic find  of heads/skulls mounted on wooden stakes in Sweden.
http://www.thelocal.se/36226/20110919/


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 04, 2011, 09:09:27 PM
I am pleased to report that another Swede has tested L21+ today, with his MDKA from Skurup, Sweden.

He joined the L159.2 Project awhile ago, but has also tested L159.2- with his Deep Clade results.

Put another tack on Sweden!


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on October 05, 2011, 03:13:19 PM
I wonder if he might be Z255+ ??



Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on October 05, 2011, 07:28:13 PM
I am pleased to report that another Swede has tested L21+ today, with his MDKA from Skurup, Sweden.

He joined the L159.2 Project awhile ago, but has also tested L159.2- with his Deep Clade results.

Put another tack on Sweden!

Can you get him to join the R-L21 Plus Project?

I don't even know who he is.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 05, 2011, 07:45:06 PM
I am pleased to report that another Swede has tested L21+ today, with his MDKA from Skurup, Sweden.

He joined the L159.2 Project awhile ago, but has also tested L159.2- with his Deep Clade results.

Put another tack on Sweden!

Can you get him to join the R-L21 Plus Project?

I don't even know who he is.

You got it.

Hopefully, you will be acquainted soon enough!


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 05, 2011, 07:47:29 PM
I wonder if he might be Z255+ ??



Well, my initial prognosis was based on a rudimentary understanding of the Irish Sea Modal, and I was essentially recruiting folks who only matched one or two of the key markers.

Who knows, Mike? Maybe it is something for Mr. Linder to consider in the near future.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: OConnor on October 06, 2011, 04:18:28 PM
There is Z255 in Norway, by way of the ones who are  L159.2+
If indeed all R-L159 are Z255+

I don't know if there are any L144+ people in Norway. Perhaps I'll have a look around some projects later. 

 


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on October 06, 2011, 07:32:03 PM
I am pleased to report that another Swede has tested L21+ today, with his MDKA from Skurup, Sweden.

He joined the L159.2 Project awhile ago, but has also tested L159.2- with his Deep Clade results.

Put another tack on Sweden!

Can you get him to join the R-L21 Plus Project?

I don't even know who he is.

You got it.

Hopefully, you will be acquainted soon enough!

Thanks, Neal. He joined today.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 07, 2011, 06:11:22 PM
Excellent!


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 08, 2011, 10:45:23 AM
There is Z255 in Norway, by way of the ones who are  L159.2+
If indeed all R-L159 are Z255+

I don't know if there are any L144+ people in Norway. Perhaps I'll have a look around some projects later.  
NealtheRed,
We know that we have L159.2+ non-Irish Sea Modal and the L159.2- 464X=2c2g Irish Sea people. That seems to be unlikely, hence there is a concern about the stability of L159.2.

Given that and the fact I'm aggressive on SNP testing, I think all of the types of L159.2+ people should consider testing for Z255, particularly the non-Irish Sea modal ones and ones that are 464X=3c1g.  The L159.2- Irish Sea people should test for Z255 as well. 

Maybe Z255 will help clarify this.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 08, 2011, 11:20:59 AM
There is Z255 in Norway, by way of the ones who are  L159.2+
If indeed all R-L159 are Z255+

I don't know if there are any L144+ people in Norway. Perhaps I'll have a look around some projects later.  
NealtheRed,
We know that we have L159.2+ non-Irish Sea Modal and the L159.2- 464X=2c2g Irish Sea people. That seems to be unlikely, hence there is a concern about the stability of L159.2.

Given that and the fact I'm aggressive on SNP testing, I think all of the types of L159.2+ people should consider testing for Z255, particularly the non-Irish Sea modal ones and ones that are 464X=3c1g.  The L159.2- Irish Sea people should test for Z255 as well.  

Maybe Z255 will help clarify this.

I know it is too early since we need Z255 results for our Irish Sea L159.2- men, but I think Z255 has the potential to rectify the differences between those who are L159.2+ and those who are negative.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are some L159.2+ results that could be lab errors (kit #189806 in the L159.2 Project is one), but the majority of the Irish Sea L159.2- folks do have unique differences in their STRs from L159.2+/CCGG men. We still think they branched off just before the L159.2 mutation manifested itself.


But I agree. Our goal is to get these Irish Sea L159.2- men to test for Z255 to connect the dots. Considering L144 is directly downstream as well, I wonder how extensive Z255 is?


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on October 09, 2011, 07:53:02 AM
The R-L21 Plus Project has picked up a new Danish member. Interestingly, his most distant known y-dna ancestor had the surname Matrois. I'm no expert on Danish surnames, but that one looks French to me. It's kit 210257, from Nakskov, Denmark, on the island of Nykøbing.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: GoldenHind on October 11, 2011, 03:12:35 PM
The R-L21 Plus Project has picked up a new Danish member. Interestingly, his most distant known y-dna ancestor had the surname Matrois. I'm no expert on Danish surnames, but that one looks French to me. It's kit 210257, from Nakskov, Denmark, on the island of Nykøbing.

It does indeed look French. How old is his MDKA? Many Danes and other Scandinavians have in more recent generations adopted unusual surnames to distinguish themselves from the thousands of others with the same patronymic surname (Hansen, Petersen, Olsen, Larsen, etc). Presumably if his ancestry is French, he will be aware of it.  I suggest asking him.


Title: Re: Scandinavian L21
Post by: rms2 on October 11, 2011, 06:51:28 PM
I did ask him. He does not know but said that the king allowed French Huguenots to settle in Nakskov, where his ancestor came from, so that is a distinct possibility. He is working on extending the y-line genealogy further back.

His mdka was born in 1754.