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Title: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: secherbernard on April 07, 2010, 05:02:22 AM
What do you think about a north Caucasus origin for P312 and U106 ?

1) The current distribution of haplogroup R1b (see http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#R1b ) suggests an origin in the northern Caucasus. One can also imagine that R1b1b2 has crossed the Caucasus, then went along the south coast of the Black Sea, and entered into the Balkans. Hence P312 has extended its route to Italy and Iberia, U106 went to the northern Europe. Arriving in Portugal P312 then spread throughout Western Europe during the Bell Beaker culture.
2) Greek historian Appian of Alexandria tells us that the Iberians of Asia living in the North Caucasus could be the ancestors of the Iberians of the Iberian Peninsula. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia

Can you imagine a raid of thousands of men speaking an Indo-European language, leaving the area south of the Pontic steppe and the North Caucasus, and going to Iberia in 3rd millennium BC? Arriving in Portugal, there was a partition of the language in Celtiberi (IE language) and Neolithics speaking a no IE language (perhaps the ancestor of Basque). Then P312 spread throughout Europe during the Bell Beaker culture to form the proto-Celtic culture.

An archeologist, Kristian Kristiansen wrote recently in a French magazine:

"A partir du milieu du IIIè millénaire, la rencontre entre les cultures des tombes individuelles/culture de la céramique cordée au nord, et les cultures Campaniformes au sud, entraina l'apparition des langues proto-celtiques qui s'étendirent de la péninsule ibérique aux Iles Britanniques et devinrent ainsi les principales langues de la côte atlantique. Elles ne diffusèrent en Europe centrale qu'au début de l'âge du fer."

that I can translate like:

"From the middle of the third millennium, the encounter between the cultures of individual graves/Corded Ware culture in the north and the Bell Beaker culture in the south, caused the emergence of proto-Celtic languages which spread from the Iberian Peninsula to the British Isles and became the major languages of the Atlantic coast. They spread in Central Europe only at the beginning of the Iron Age."


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 08, 2010, 03:24:51 PM
Interesting to see which way Kristian Kristiansen is thinking. He is a partner in the big European Union study Forging Identities (http://www.forging-identities.com/index.php?pageid=partner_GU), which is looking at intercultural interaction in Bronze Age Europe.

   


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: OConnor on April 08, 2010, 10:10:07 PM
I can picture Phoenicians in Spain.

Ooops i forgot..they were all  Group J.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2010, 07:52:04 AM

. . .
"From the middle of the third millennium, the encounter between the cultures of individual graves/Corded Ware culture in the north and the Bell Beaker culture in the south, caused the emergence of proto-Celtic languages which spread from the Iberian Peninsula to the British Isles and became the major languages of the Atlantic coast. They spread in Central Europe only at the beginning of the Iron Age."


It seems the idea, which I think may have been first suggested by Koch, that Celtic arose as a lingua franca in Iberia and spread eastward from there is gaining some traction.

Cunliffe endorsed it in his book, Europe Between the Oceans.

Now Kristiansen apparently agrees.

I'm not sure who is right, but this idea has Celtic moving in exactly the opposite direction from that of the old idea of the spread of Celtic or Italo-Celtic from East-Central Europe.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 09, 2010, 08:59:31 AM

. . .
"From the middle of the third millennium, the encounter between the cultures of individual graves/Corded Ware culture in the north and the Bell Beaker culture in the south, caused the emergence of proto-Celtic languages which spread from the Iberian Peninsula to the British Isles and became the major languages of the Atlantic coast. They spread in Central Europe only at the beginning of the Iron Age."

It seems the idea, which I think may have been first suggested by Koch, that Celtic arose as a lingua franca in Iberia and spread eastward from there is gaining some traction.
Cunliffe endorsed it in his book, Europe Between the Oceans.
Now Kristiansen apparently agrees.
I'm not sure who is right, but this idea has Celtic moving in exactly the opposite direction from that of the old idea of the spread of Celtic or Italo-Celtic from East-Central Europe.
What are the predecessor or predecessor(s) for the Celtic language?   Does this represent Italo-Celtic mixing with some kind of pre-Germanic IE language at the edge of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Cultures?

Do the authors of Corded Ware/Bell Beaker mixing idea mesh in the language branching theories where Celtic comes from an Italo-Celtic type base?


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 09, 2010, 12:32:19 PM
It seems the idea, which I think may have been first suggested by Koch, that Celtic arose as a lingua franca in Iberia and spread eastward from there is gaining some traction.

Cunliffe endorsed it in his book, Europe Between the Oceans.

Now Kristiansen apparently agrees.

I'm not sure who is right, but this idea has Celtic moving in exactly the opposite direction from that of the old idea of the spread of Celtic or Italo-Celtic from East-Central Europe.

There are three separate issues here.

1) The "lingua franca"

Barry Cunliffe was forced into the dotty idea of Celtic becoming a "lingua franca", not in Iberia, but down the Atlantic seaboard, by the anti-migrationist dogma that wouldn't admit that real, live people actually moved into the British Isles, carrying a Celtic language (or several of them). So we were supposed to believe that the entire  population of two large islands completely abandoned their native tongue  and learned that of Iberia in order to speak to a few passing traders.

Thank goodness genetics has made it possible to drop that idea down a deep well. Looks like the volume edited by Cunliffe and Koch, due out this year, will argue that genuine, real, living Celts came from Iberia to the British Isles in the Bronze Age. 

2) Out of Iberia

That still leaves said academics stuck with out-of-date genetics, which they thought backed this Iberian-British connection. They will catch up eventually.

3) Central Europe

The old idea was that the Celts spread in the Iron Age from the Hallstatt and La Tene centres. In fact they did. However it now looks as though that was just the last of a series of movements, rather than The Whole Story.     


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 09, 2010, 12:42:45 PM
What are the predecessor or predecessor(s) for the Celtic language?   

There are two theories:

1) Proto-Celtic is a first generation child of Proto-Indo-European.

3) Proto-Celtic is a child of Proto-Italo-Celtic, which is a child of Proto-Indo-European. I prefer this one.

Quote
Does this represent Italo-Celtic mixing with some kind of pre-Germanic IE language at the edge of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Cultures?

Do the authors of Corded Ware/Bell Beaker mixing idea mesh in the language branching theories where Celtic comes from an Italo-Celtic type base? 

It's not too clear what Kristian Kristiansen has in mind.  Proto-Germanic is thought to have developed in the Nordic Bronze Age, not in the Corded Ware Culture, so I don't think he is factoring in proto-Germanic. Looks like he is trying to reconcile the apparent contradictions of the evidence. Quite a few of us have been trying to do that. :)



Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2010, 08:51:46 PM
Have you read this book yet, Jean?

John Koch's Tartessian: Celtic in the South-west at the Dawn of History (http://www.amazon.com/Tartessian-South-west-History-Studies-Publications/dp/1891271172)

I haven't read it, but do you think Koch was influenced by old genetics or by his knowledge of linguistics?


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2010, 09:03:09 AM
I haven't read it either, but it looks as though it fits right into the view that has been incorporated into The Peopling of Europe for some months.   See Beaker Folk to Celts and Italics (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/peoplingeurope.shtml#beaker) (extract):

So copper-workers may have arrived in Iberia with a small company of migrants, to be gradually reinforced by others seeking pastures new. An early splinter group from the Proto-Celtic-Italic parent would help to explain why the Celtic of Iberia had such an archaic structure, retaining Italic elements.* A similarly mixed language was spoken by the Ligures in what is now Northern-Western Italy and South-Eastern France. There is tantalisingly little evidence for Ligurian, but it appears primarily Celtic and Italic.**

Is it a coincidence that the earliest copper-mine has been found in the territory of the Ligures?*** Or do we see here a clan-run industrial network stretching across the Mediterranean? It seems possible that a group of Proto-Italic-Celtic-speakers left the Danube corridor to travel through the Vučedol Culture (Croatia) which would give them a relatively easy route to the Adriatic, and from there to Northern Italy, along the river Po to Liguria and on to Iberia by sea. The spread of the Maritime Beaker shows that sea travel was within their grasp.

*F. B. Mozota, Celtiberians:Problems and debates, section 4.3: Celtiberian: A non-Celtic Indo-European language? in E-Keltoi, the Journal of Interdisciplinary Celtic Studies, vol. 6: The Celts in the Iberian Peninsula (2007).

**K. Kuriaki, A Grammar of Modern Indo-European (2006-8), pp. 57, 60-61.

***R. Maggi and M. Pearce, Mid fourth-millennium copper mining in Liguria, north-west Italy: the earliest known copper mines in Western Europe, Antiquity vol. 79 (2005), no. 303, pp.66-77.

[Added]
I was waiting for the volume edited by Koch and Cunliffe, but I think it would be a good idea to take a look an Koch's book, if I can get hold of it. Thanks.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2010, 09:45:04 AM
The volume edited by Profs. Cunliffe and Koch is due out in June from Oxbow Books:
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/88298

Quote
This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematical scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoí Celts are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The Celtic from the West proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula.




Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 10, 2010, 09:54:04 AM
...  The Celtic from the West proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists....
Which geneticists are you speaking of that support a "from the west/Atlantic" approach?


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2010, 11:05:02 AM
...  The Celtic from the West proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists....
Which geneticists are you speaking of that support a "from the west/Atlantic" approach?

I'm only guessing, but I would suspect that Oppenheimer, Sykes, and possibly Jim Wilson of Ethnoancestry would be included in their number.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 10, 2010, 06:41:17 PM
Which geneticists are you speaking of that support a "from the west/Atlantic" approach?

It's not me speaking. That's the book description lifted from the publisher.  I should have put it in quotes.

[Added] I have done now.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 14, 2010, 10:12:04 AM
Have you read this book yet, Jean?

John Koch's Tartessian: Celtic in the South-west at the Dawn of History (http://www.amazon.com/Tartessian-South-west-History-Studies-Publications/dp/1891271172)

Authun has tracked down an article by Koch on the same theme, which is fortunately online. John T. Koch,  A case for Tartessian as a Celtic language (http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf), Acta Palaeohispanica X, Palaeohispanica 9 (2009), pp. 339-351. Here's the crucial bit:

Quote
It should be explained at the outset that an Atlantic hypothesis of Celtic origins does not require a rejection or minimizing of the Indo-European character of Celtic, nor a relocation of the Indo-European homeland to the west. However, once we recognize evidence for Celtic in the western Peninsula as early as the Orientalizing Period of the Early Iron Age (VIIIth-VIth centuries BC), then we confront the likelihood that the Atlantic Late Bronze Age had already been a largely or wholly Celtic-speaking phenomenon and that the subsequent penetration of the region by Urnfield, Hallstatt, and La Tène influences would not be relevant or only relevant as a matter of inter-Celtic dialectology.




Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: IALEM on April 14, 2010, 12:17:08 PM
I am really surprised. Koch has not discovered anything, according to the article linked he is relying on an old theory (it is about 15 years old at least, i remember because at the time I was working myself on Latin inscriptions of the region). That theory was developed by José Antonio Correa,  a cathedratic of Classical Philiology of the university of Seville. He found several anthoponims in Tartessian inscriptions that were possibly Celtic. He toyed with the idea of Taressian itself being a celtic language, but lately he accepted they were Celtic names noted in another, non Indoeuropean language.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 14, 2010, 02:50:47 PM
Well Koch doesn't agree with that latter idea, as you see. And I have to agree with him that it scarcely explains why the king himself had a Celtic name, or the Celtic tribal name. Though it does seems that there are relatively few Celtic place-names in the area.

Koch acknowledges his debts, but adds more:

Quote
Turning now to the south-western inscriptions, José Antonio Correa and Jürgen Untermann, in their pioneering publications, have already recognized that these contain some elements that appear Celtic, mostly proper names. A list follows in which a few identifications of my own are added.



Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 14, 2010, 08:55:42 PM
Well, I guess I'm going to have to order Koch's new book. I spent a bundle on his An Atlas for Celtic Studies; guess I might as well buy this one, too.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: IALEM on April 15, 2010, 10:49:28 AM
Well Koch doesn't agree with that latter idea, as you see. And I have to agree with him that it scarcely explains why the king himself had a Celtic name, or the Celtic tribal name. Though it does seems that there are relatively few Celtic place-names in the area.

Koch acknowledges his debts, but adds more:



There are several issues here
1) Koch adds some anthoponims, no new readings, on this he is dependant on Correa and Untermann. The problem is that they were only able to reas some short inscriptions, the longer Tartessian inscriptions remain undeciphered since then, and it is already about 15 years. If Tartessian was a Celtic language, inscriptions could have been read, see for instance how every year new Celtiberian inscriptions are found and deciphered.
2) We know there were Celtic populations in SW Iberia, that is nothing new, when I studied in the University a long way ago it was already known, not only Ancient sources indicate their presence (together with Germanic tribes) but also archaeological findings support that, with Hallstattic influence together with the more popular from the Atlantic Bronze.
The traditional explanation, put forward by Blázquez, is that some Celtic mercenaries were hired by the Tartessians, and eventually they took control of the government, that would explain the Hallstattic influences in the aristocratic graves.
To sum up, there are Celtic anthoponims in the inscriptions, that put Celtic peoples in the VII century BC in SW Iberai, that is still within the context of the traditional explanation of Celtic migration into Iberia in the Hallstatt period.
IMO only when some long inscriptions are deciphered we can be certain of knowing which kind of language was Tartessian


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 15, 2010, 01:20:34 PM
@ IALEM  I see that you are fighting the new perspective every step of the way. :)

As you know, I think the old idea of Celts spreading in the Iron Age is a dead duck, with or without Tartessian. I'm not remotely persuaded by it.

PS I know of no ancient author who places Germanic tribes in Iberia prior to the fall of the Western Empire. 


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: IALEM on April 15, 2010, 02:28:53 PM
@ IALEM  I see that you are fighting the new perspective every step of the way. :)

As you know, I think the old idea of Celts spreading in the Iron Age is a dead duck, with or without Tartessian. I'm not remotely persuaded by it.

PS I know of no ancient author who places Germanic tribes in Iberia prior to the fall of the Western Empire. 
I know you think that, but you know I am not convinced either. BTW that "Old perspective", at least in Spain, is the "New perspective" that has replaced the "Old perspective", that of the 90s. I was very thrilled by that perspective when it was proposed in the 90s, but it is a dead end so far.

PS: Pliny the Elder "Oretani qui et Germani cognominantur" (N.uh. 3,25), the main town of this tribe was Oretum Germanorum (modern Granátula de Calatrava)


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 15, 2010, 04:50:11 PM
PS: Pliny the Elder "Oretani qui et Germani cognominantur" (N.uh. 3,25), the main town of this tribe was Oretum Germanorum (modern Granátula de Calatrava)

Thanks. Interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germani_%28Oretania%29


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 16, 2010, 06:06:57 AM
@ IALEM  I see that you are fighting the new perspective every step of the way. :)

As you know, I think the old idea of Celts spreading in the Iron Age is a dead duck, with or without Tartessian. I'm not remotely persuaded by it.

PS I know of no ancient author who places Germanic tribes in Iberia prior to the fall of the Western Empire. 
I know you think that, but you know I am not convinced either. BTW that "Old perspective", at least in Spain, is the "New perspective" that has replaced the "Old perspective", that of the 90s. I was very thrilled by that perspective when it was proposed in the 90s, but it is a dead end so far.

PS: Pliny the Elder "Oretani qui et Germani cognominantur" (N.uh. 3,25), the main town of this tribe was Oretum Germanorum (modern Granátula de Calatrava)

I have to agree that some of the most recent Iberian assessments of the Celticisation of Iberia do seem to have reverted back to the idea of Hallstatt influences being crucial. 


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 17, 2010, 04:52:27 AM
Its really frustrating that Cunliffe and Koch's new book will influence for the next decade when L21 has essentially already made an Iberia-Isles Celtic link/ethnogenisis all but impossible as they are likely to argue it.  In particular they are likely to link the early metal centres in western Iberia and Ireland two areas that could not be more different in terms of R1b1b2 clades.  At the very least they would need to rewrite the story to allow for S116 to spread into France, the L21 SNP then happening/expanding in France and a move to the isles from northern France.  However, I am not sure I think this is plausible either.  Its mighty difficult to see L21 spreading east to the SW Germany area. 

You know, this Atlantic Celts fad began because the evidence for the traditional La Tene, Hallstatt etc spread seemed too flimsy in most areas, especially Iberia and the British Isles.  However, I think the archaeological evidence for Iberia-isles links is far more flimsy. So why favour the Atlantic idea?

I cant help but feel that this will be looked back on as a dead end theory in a decade or so.  To be honest, when you close your eyes and try to picture it, the idea that half of western Europe's population is down to a few copper/bronze smithing/trading families seems a bit ridiculous.  I could just about believe the idea of trade networks requiring a lingua franca but to also link these to R1b1b2 just seems very hard to believe. 


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 17, 2010, 08:03:37 AM
Alan - The idea that Bell Beaker was spread by "a few copper/bronze smithing/trading families" was dreamed up by Richard Harrison in the heat of the anti-migrationist movement. Before "the new archaeology" no-one doubted that BB represented mass migration by Beaker Folk. There was ample evidence of same, but it was all argued away by those for whom "continuity" was a buzz word.

The tide turned a few years ago. Volker Heyd refused to deny the evidence right in  front of his eyes. It stood out a mile that in the area he was excavating, BB represented an intrusion by new people. Suddenly you get people with different skeletons, different lifestyle and burial customs settling on different sites from the previous lot. No this can't be explained by the descendants of the previous lot  adopting new fashions.

The absurd refusal to recognise migration in the record has had its day. The rise of population genetics will seal its demise. But some archaeologists rebelled against the dogma before genetics forced them to kiss it goodbye. There is a paradigm change going on in archaeology. The proof of that is not just Prof. Cunliffe setting sail up the Atlantic seaboard. It lies in the proliferation of academic projects investigating aspects of migration. There is ferment going on behind the scenes.

You don't get the EU funding vast projects without a whole bunch of academics being pretty sure that there is something new to find. http://www.forging-identities.com/

  


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 17, 2010, 09:11:03 AM
Which geneticists are you speaking of that support a "from the west/Atlantic" approach?

Here's the list of contributors to the volume:  

(Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra;

(Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley*; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik**;

(Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.
----------------------------------------

* Previous publications:
Brian McEvoy, Daniel G. Bradley, Y-chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, Human Genetics (2006)

Brian McEvoy, Katharine Simms, Daniel G. Bradley, Genetic Investigation of the Patrilineal Kinship Structure of Early Medieval Ireland, American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2008)

** I presume this is Ellen Christine Røyrvik,  a research fellow at the University of Oxford, working on a project which aims to create a genetic map of the British islands and surrounding countries. http://nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/nrk_sogn_og_fjordane/1.6566897 . Must be http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/

[Added]. Yes she's working with Sir Walter Bodmer:
http://www.imm.ox.ac.uk/wimm-research/molecular-oncology/walter-bodmer


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: rms2 on April 17, 2010, 09:45:24 AM
Which geneticists are you speaking of that support a "from the west/Atlantic" approach?

Here's the list of contributors to the volume:  

(Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra;

(Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley*; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik**;

(Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.
----------------------------------------

* Previous publications:
Brian McEvoy, Daniel G. Bradley, Y-chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, Human Genetics (2006)

Brian McEvoy, Katharine Simms, Daniel G. Bradley, Genetic Investigation of the Patrilineal Kinship Structure of Early Medieval Ireland, American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2008)

** I presume this is Ellen Christine Røyrvik,  a research fellow at the University of Oxford, working on a project which aims to create a genetic map of the British islands and surrounding countries. http://nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/nrk_sogn_og_fjordane/1.6566897 . Must be http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/

[Added]. Yes she's working with Sir Walter Bodmer:
http://www.imm.ox.ac.uk/wimm-research/molecular-oncology/walter-bodmer

I wrote Daniel Bradley not too long after the discovery of L21 and told him about it. He actually responded and seemed interested but said they were no longer working on genetics at Trinity College. He asked about L21 in France, but at that point we had only a handful of French L21 (eight, I think).

I also wrote John Koch, but I never heard anything back from him.

If these folks ignore L21, they cannot help but go wrong.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 17, 2010, 09:46:57 AM
The programme for the conference in 2008 was:

  • Dr Graham Isaac, The origins of the Celtic languages: language spread from East to West
  • Ellen Røyrvik, Western Celts? A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe
  • Professor Raimund Karl, The Celts from everywhere and nowhere
  • Dr David Parsons, Tracking the course of savage tongue: place-names and linguistic diffusion in early Britain
  • Professor Dan Bradley,  Genetic affinities and Celtic Heritage
  • Professor Sir Barry Cunliffe, Celticization from the West: the contribution of archaeology
  • Professor John Koch, Paradigm Shift? The Tartessian language and some possible implications
  • Professor Stephen Oppenheimer, The genetic background of the Western British Isles: pre-farming settlement and a Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age Iberian founding in North Wales

http://forum.keltologie.org/index.php?topic=376.0


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 17, 2010, 09:59:49 AM
I wrote Daniel Bradley ...

You have done your best. So have I. Prof. Cunliffe saw an early version of my P of E a year ago.

But the field is changing faster than the normal academic process can keep up with. The ideas of 2008 are now coming out in 2010, and there is not a lot that anyone can do about that. Authors may try to modify their text before print, to take new discoveries into account, but there comes a point when the editors simply can't allow any more fiddling about.     


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: vineviz on April 17, 2010, 10:31:11 AM
Alan - The idea that Bell Beaker was spread by "a few copper/bronze smithing/trading families" was dreamed up by Richard Harrison in the heat of the anti-migrationist movement.
I like the term Ammerman and Cavalli-Sforza used:  "indigenism".  Though I sense that term has grown to include a more political than archaelogical meaning since then.

VV


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 17, 2010, 10:37:13 AM
Which geneticists are you speaking of that support a "from the west/Atlantic" approach?

Here's the list of contributors to the volume:  

(Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra;

(Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley*; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik**;

(Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.
----------------------------------------

* Previous publications:
Brian McEvoy, Daniel G. Bradley, Y-chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, Human Genetics (2006)

Brian McEvoy, Katharine Simms, Daniel G. Bradley, Genetic Investigation of the Patrilineal Kinship Structure of Early Medieval Ireland, American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2008)

** I presume this is Ellen Christine Røyrvik,  a research fellow at the University of Oxford, working on a project which aims to create a genetic map of the British islands and surrounding countries. http://nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/nrk_sogn_og_fjordane/1.6566897 . Must be http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/

[Added]. Yes she's working with Sir Walter Bodmer:
http://www.imm.ox.ac.uk/wimm-research/molecular-oncology/walter-bodmer


That list includes a lot of card carrying citizens of Atlantis who have sort of dug themselves deeply to the point of no return into the Atlantic Celts and/or out of Iberia model (of various dates) long ago.  Certainly Koch, Cunliffe, Oppenheimer and the irish geneticists have backed themselves into a bit of a corner in print and even on a TV series.  They are the usual suspects when it comes to the Atlantic Celts/out of Iberia model and it does not surprise me that they are looking to beef up their Atlantic angle.  

However, if, as you strongly argue, the spread of languages must be linked to a population change, the R1b1b2 clade evidence is decisively against this model and rather links the isles Atlantic Celts to northern France/SW Germany i.e. something more akin to the traditional model of a central European (then Gaulish) origin of the Celts (be it an Iron Age, Bronze Age or Neolithic one) with a spread through France to the British Isles.  

An Atlantic model can only survive L21 if it is signficantly altered to make NW France the immediate source of contact with the British Isles.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 17, 2010, 11:10:00 AM
Alan - The idea that Bell Beaker was spread by "a few copper/bronze smithing/trading families" was dreamed up by Richard Harrison in the heat of the anti-migrationist movement. Before "the new archaeology" no-one doubted that BB represented mass migration by Beaker Folk. There was ample evidence of same, but it was all argued away by those for whom "continuity" was a buzz word.

The tide turned a few years ago. Volker Heyd refused to deny the evidence right in  front of his eyes. It stood out a mile that in the area he was excavating, BB represented an intrusion by new people. Suddenly you get people with different skeletons, different lifestyle and burial customs settling on different sites from the previous lot. No this can't be explained by the descendants of the previous lot  adopting new fashions.

The absurd refusal to recognise migration in the record has had its day. The rise of population genetics will seal its demise. But some archaeologists rebelled against the dogma before genetics forced them to kiss it goodbye. There is a paradigm change going on in archaeology. The proof of that is not just Prof. Cunliffe setting sail up the Atlantic seaboard. It lies in the proliferation of academic projects investigating aspects of migration. There is ferment going on behind the scenes.

You don't get the EU funding vast projects without a whole bunch of academics being pretty sure that there is something new to find. http://www.forging-identities.com/

  

Jean to be honest I have always thought that the beaker period saw a substantial input into southern and eastern Britain although similar evidence is lacking in the Atlantic areas of the British Isles.  In ireland on the one hand there was an early metalworking powerhouse but NO typical beaker burials.  Some attribute this lack of classic beaker burial, the contrasting wealth of evidence of early metallurgy and the continuing use of megaliths (even a new type of megalith-Wedge Tombs with some resemblance to Breton ones) to an early Atlantic beaker connection. However, it is worth noting that most of the pottery is of the British and Rhenish type.  Ireland does have a strong similarity to Britain in terms of the immediate post-beaker successor cultures.  Indeed many beaker traditions like inhumations in cists with a pot, beaker type archery equipment etc do not appear in a coherent package form in Ireland until the immediate post-beaker period.  Indeed, in past reading, I recall Wales and western Scotland as having a similar atypical beaker period as Ireland. 

I am not sure how the much greater strength of evidence of a beaker migration in the east can be squared with the very high L21 in the west/Atlantic parts of the British Isles.  A Breton link would make some sense to me as that is where stubborn local Atlantic megalithic traditions, NW European beakers and Iberian influences overlapped and of course it is a very high L21 area today.   Alternatively L21 may have arrived in the beaker period mainly in eastern Britain from NW Europe before spreading west in both beaker and post-beaker times with much later migration later diluting L21 in the east giving it a 'false' Atlantic look.       


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on April 17, 2010, 11:58:40 AM
"I wrote Daniel Bradley not too long after the discovery of L21 and told him about it. He actually responded and seemed interested but said they were no longer working on genetics at Trinity College." 

If this was their best effort in early 2009, they were not doing good science, anyway. They found no Celtic men in Ireland. 

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0216/1233867938492_pf.html

"This was possibly the reason why when one looked for genetic evidence of the Celts in Ireland these Celtic genes could not be found."


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 17, 2010, 12:32:09 PM
@ Alan - You have some interesting ideas as ever.

I'm not worried about relative densities of Beaker sites in Britain. Although the initial attraction may have been to sources of metal in the mountains, the lowlands support a higher density of population. So whatever the period, from pre-history to today, we are liable to find higher populations in the lowlands.

So far we have clues that the Amesbury Archer came from near the Alps, but was connected to a trade network as far as Iberia. We have early Beaker pots in Argyll bearing a close resemblance to those in the Netherlands.  Here's how I sum up:

Quote
The Bell Beaker Culture bought the Bronze Age to the British Isles. To be more exact, Beaker folk initially brought the Copper Age around 2,450 BC, homing in on the copper belts of Ireland and Wales. They left their characteristic beakers at a copper-working site on Ross Island, in Lough Leane, County Kerry. To judge by chemical compostion, copper from Ireland was traded into Britain, along with gold from the Mourne Mountains. The incomers boosted what had been a dwindling population of farmers, and created a thriving society. From around 2,200 BC Beaker interest in Britain intensified as Cornwall was discovered to be a prime source for tin, the precious component of true bronze.

For decades a vision of prehistoric population continuity shaped a view of Bell Beaker in British Isles as a purely cultural phenomenon. The discovery of the Amesbury Archer near Stonehenge in 2002 forced a reconsideration. This man lived around 2,300 BC and was buried with Beaker pots and wrist guards. Tests were carried out on the Archer’s teeth and bones and objects found in the grave. They show that he came from Central Europe, perhaps near the Alps, and that his copper knives came from Spain and France. The Beaker isotope project is taking a fresh look at the Beaker Culture in Britain.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Jean M on April 17, 2010, 12:44:58 PM
The Portuguese archaeologist Prof. Amilcar Guerra (http://www.fl.ul.pt/pessoais/arqueologia/Lic_doc5.htm), who has written for the volume, but did not appear at the conference, may be contributing something on his discovery in 2008 of a new example of Southwest Script.  (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29445240/)  

Quote
For more than two centuries, scientists have tried to decipher Southwest Script, believed to be the peninsula's oldest written tongue and, along with Etruscan from modern-day Italy, one of Europe's first. The stone tablet features 86 characters and provides the longest-running text of the Iron Age language ever found.

About 90 slate tablets bearing the ancient inscriptions have been recovered, most of them incomplete. Almost all were scattered across southern Portugal, though a handful turned up in the neighboring Spanish region of Andalucia.  ....

It is generally agreed the texts date from between 2,500 and 2,800 years ago. Most experts have concluded they were authored by a people called Tartessians, a tribe of Mediterranean traders who mined for metal in these parts — one of Europe's largest copper mines is nearby — but disappeared after a few centuries. Some scientists have proposed that the composers were other pre-Roman tribes, such as the Conii or Cynetes, or maybe even Celts who roamed this far south.

He seems very cautious about the script in his recent article in Portuguese about the new discoveries: http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/25guerra.pdf


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Maliclavelli on April 19, 2010, 01:01:12 PM
Rokus has written on this subject on his forum. I have written this:

The explication of Celt and Umbrian p- from kw- as due to Etruskan influence isn't convincing. This is a linguistic change diffused all over the world and happened many times also from Latin to Neolatin languages (Rum. limba from Latin "lingua" presupposes the parallel b from gw-, the same in Sardinian "limba". Rum. apa from "aqua", Sardinian "abba" etc.) The problem could be put in a different way as an influence of substratum if we presuppose that there was a Rhaetic-Etruskan substratum in Europe and that Rhaetic-Etruskan was a relict of an ancient phase of the Indoeuropean, those R1b1* which from the Rhaetian-Etruskan fatherland peopled all Europe and Mediterranean shores after the Younger Dryas, like I think is going to be demonstrated at genetic level. See the last postings on www.worldfamilies.net by me and Argiedude.
If really Etruskan "puplu" presupposes the IE *kwekwlo- the link from Rhaetian-Etruskans and Indo-Europeans should be dated to many thousands of years ago and not in historic times.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: llew_james on May 14, 2011, 12:05:50 PM
Well Koch doesn't agree with that latter idea, as you see. And I have to agree with him that it scarcely explains why the king himself had a Celtic name, or the Celtic tribal name. Though it does seems that there are relatively few Celtic place-names in the area.

Koch acknowledges his debts, but adds more:



There are several issues here
1) Koch adds some anthoponims, no new readings, on this he is dependant on Correa and Untermann. The problem is that they were only able to reas some short inscriptions, the longer Tartessian inscriptions remain undeciphered since then, and it is already about 15 years. If Tartessian was a Celtic language, inscriptions could have been read, see for instance how every year new Celtiberian inscriptions are found and deciphered.
2) We know there were Celtic populations in SW Iberia, that is nothing new, when I studied in the University a long way ago it was already known, not only Ancient sources indicate their presence (together with Germanic tribes) but also archaeological findings support that, with Hallstattic influence together with the more popular from the Atlantic Bronze.
The traditional explanation, put forward by Blázquez, is that some Celtic mercenaries were hired by the Tartessians, and eventually they took control of the government, that would explain the Hallstattic influences in the aristocratic graves.
To sum up, there are Celtic anthoponims in the inscriptions, that put Celtic peoples in the VII century BC in SW Iberai, that is still within the context of the traditional explanation of Celtic migration into Iberia in the Hallstatt period.
IMO only when some long inscriptions are deciphered we can be certain of knowing which kind of language was Tartessian

Could Tartessian be a Creole language,a mixture of Celtic and a local non IE language?


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 15, 2011, 10:57:32 AM
IN dienekes blog he quotes some new study on the caucuses.  It wasnt focussed on R1b but it was focussed on the correlation of languages and DNA.  Not sure if it says much about R1b but the impression given is that its rare.  I have always felt that area is probably the margins of language groups and a refuge area for peoples and languages driven from better land to the south and east.  The paper indicates a major eastern barrier for European DNA at the Don River with the Caucuses beyond that barrier and very much Asian.  I am interested in the idea of Euphratic, which has been suggested as a pre-Sumerian Indo-European language of the fertile crescent area.  I know very little about it but it obviously has the advantage of making a link between IE and the area of origin of farming. 


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 15, 2011, 12:09:07 PM
I have begun a thread here about "Euphratic". You can see. About the study you were spoken about, unfortunately it isn't fo free and I know only what has been said on other forums, but it seems that R1b is rare in the Caucasus, except amongst Armenians, like I have always said, and Armenians are Indo-Europeans come from the Balkans, and all those R1b cited also by Vizachero in "ht35 project" are above all Armenians, even pretty all the Turkish ones.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 15, 2011, 11:28:29 PM
... it seems that R1b is rare in the Caucasus, except amongst Armenians...
Wait a minute. Where are you getting this?  The Myres study shows several Caucasus groups with high R1b frequencies.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: IALEM on May 17, 2011, 05:23:03 AM

Could Tartessian be a Creole language,a mixture of Celtic and a local non IE language?
Tartessian texts show some anthroponims that are Celtic beyond doubt, so what we know is that Celtic people is in the Tartessian world at that stage. The traditional explanation is that a warrior Celtic elite took over Tartessians.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: llew_james on May 17, 2011, 10:39:11 AM

Could Tartessian be a Creole language,a mixture of Celtic and a local non IE language?
Tartessian texts show some anthroponims that are Celtic beyond doubt, so what we know is that Celtic people is in the Tartessian world at that stage. The traditional explanation is that a warrior Celtic elite took over Tartessians.

Thanks!


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: secherbernard on May 29, 2011, 02:40:05 AM
This is the full text of the paper of Balanovsky and al. "Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus": http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/CaucasusRegion_Balanovsky_2011.pdf
There is a very interesting discussion about dating genetic lineages. The authors compare the Zhivotovsky evolutionary mutation rate (6.9 x 10-4 per locus per generation) with a genealogical rate (2.1 x 10-3; Gusmao et al., 2005; Sanchez-Diz et al., 2008; Ge et al., 2009). The results obtained by using these two rates were compared with linguistic and historical evidence.
The ro estimator using the genealogical rate provided a good fit between genetics and linguistics, while estimates based on the “evolutionary” mutation rate were too old to be in agreement with the linguistic dates.
For the BATWING tree, applying the genealogical rate underestimates the dates, while applying evolutionary rates overestimates the dates.


Title: Re: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 29, 2011, 04:49:43 AM
Many thanks for the paper. I have quoted some passages which demonstrate clearly that:

1)   R1b1b2 isn’t from Middle East nor from East Europe (Kurgans, Maykop etc.), but from Western Europe (Italy I think)
2)   The authors use the genealogical mutation rate with many hairsplittings. Nobody denies that it may be worth in the short time, but it isn’t worth in the long one.


Similarly, two different haplotype clusters within R1b1b2-M269 (Supplementary Figure 1) were found in the Lezghins (30%) and in Ossets-Digor (16%). These concentrations of (presumably European) haplogroups R1a*-M198(xM458), R1a1a7-M458 and R1b1b2-M269 found in few locations in the Caucasus might indicate independent migrations from Europe that were too small to make any significant impact on Caucasus populations (page 16).

The Indo-European-speaking Ossets were outliers in the Caucasus linguistic tree, and the genetic tree also placed them separately, with slight similarity to the Abkhaz. Generally, the tree based on genetic distances mirrored the linguistic tree in its overall pattern and in most details (page 17).

The age for the four major haplogroups in individual populations obtained by using SD estimator (Supplementary Table 3) are close to the Neolithic epoch, and might be interpreted as signs of population expansion due to the shift to a farming economy(page 20).

Although occupying a boundary position between Europe and the Near East, all four
major Caucasus haplogroups show signs of a Near Eastern rather than European origin (Figure 2, Supplementary Figure 1). These four haplogroups reach their maximum (worldwide) frequencies in the Caucasus (Table 2, Figure 2). They are either shared with Near East populations (G2a3b1-P303 and J2a4b*-M67(xM92)) or have ancestral lineages present there (G2a1*-P16(xP18) and J1*-M267(xP58)). Typical European haplogroups are very rare (I2a- P37.2) or limited to specific populations (R1a1a-M198; R1b1b2-M269) in the Caucasus (page 22).

It should be mentioned here that, for the BATWING tree (which does not require
identifying the clusters), applying the genealogical rate underestimates the dates, while applying evolutionary rates overestimates the dates (page 23).