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Title: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on March 28, 2010, 04:26:57 PM
I created a new category today for the Y-DNA Results page of the R-P312 and Subclades Project. It's for guys who are L165+ (S68+). Thus far, there are only two guys in it: Hammer, whose ancestry is Swedish, and McLeod, whose ancestry is Scottish.

If you are L165+ and a member of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, please let me know so I can move you to the new category.

I understand this clade is starting to take off a bit after a slow start. I heard there are at least 15 guys thus far who are L165+ (but I don't know who most of them are).


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on March 28, 2010, 05:47:25 PM
I've been able to find out who at least three more of the L165+ guys are:

1. Greenwade, Ysearch 2H2Z7 (Unknown)

2. Haag, Ysearch 9X34Y (Germany)

3. McGirt, Ysearch HJPZE (Unknown)

I remember there was a Beal or Beall or something like that who was L165+, but there are a bunch of Beals in Ysearch. I'm not going to hunt through all of them to try to find the right one.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on March 28, 2010, 05:54:18 PM
So here's the list of the five L165+ guys I know about, in case you want to check them out in Ysearch:

1. Greenwade, Ysearch 2H2Z7 (Unknown)

2. Haag, Ysearch 9X34Y (Germany)

3. Hammer, Ysearch SSHT9 (Sweden)

4. McGirt, Ysearch HJPZE (Unknown)

5. McLeod, Ysearch B8CW7 (Scotland)


I would like to know who the others are.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on March 28, 2010, 06:01:52 PM
So here's the list of the five L165+ guys I know about, in case you want to check them out in Ysearch:

1. Greenwade, Ysearch 2H2Z7 (Unknown)

2. Haag, Ysearch 9X34Y (Germany)

3. Hammer, Ysearch SSHT9 (Sweden)

4. McGirt, Ysearch HJPZE (Unknown)

5. McLeod, Ysearch B8CW7 (Scotland)


I would like to know who the others are.


Four of the five have 390=25, and all of them have 464a=14.

Anyone notice anything else?


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on March 28, 2010, 07:02:07 PM
Here's an updated list, because I found the right Beall.

1. Beall, Ysearch SXVA3 (Scotland)

2. Greenwade, Ysearch 2H2Z7 (Unknown)

3. Haag, Ysearch 9X34Y (Germany)

4. Hammer, Ysearch SSHT9 (Sweden)

5. McGirt, Ysearch HJPZE (Unknown)

6. McLeod, Ysearch B8CW7 (Scotland)


Interestingly, Beall also has 390=25 and 464a=14. That makes five out of six with 390=25 and six out of six with 464a=14.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: GoldenHind on April 03, 2010, 02:26:28 PM
Is it absolutely clear that L165(S68) is within P312?


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: vineviz on April 03, 2010, 03:17:08 PM
Is it absolutely clear that L165(S68) is within P312?

Yes.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: vtilroe on April 04, 2010, 02:33:59 AM
It is worth noting that both McLeod and Hammer have now been found positive for L176.2 a.k.a. S179, leading to the very interesting possibility that L165/S68 is a brother clade to R-M167/SRY2627, a haplogroup which also appears to be derived for L176.2/S179.

Some of the other R-L165 guys should also test for L176.2 to confirm.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on July 19, 2010, 09:08:42 AM
It is worth noting that both McLeod and Hammer have now been found positive for L176.2 a.k.a. S179, leading to the very interesting possibility that L165/S68 is a brother clade to R-M167/SRY2627, a haplogroup which also appears to be derived for L176.2/S179.

Some of the other R-L165 guys should also test for L176.2 to confirm.

A couple of days ago a new L165+ guy joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project: Ayton, Ysearch B26GG. His ancestor came from North Yorkshire, so perhaps the Scandinavian association is holding up.

Here's the big news: Ayton is also L176.2+.

So it looks like SRY2627 and L165 are on the same L176.2+ branch of P312, as Vince T. speculated they might be.

Will wonders never cease?


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: GoldenHind on July 19, 2010, 04:27:19 PM
Are you keeping track of those who are L176.2*? I know there are at least a few.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on July 20, 2010, 07:28:43 AM
Are you keeping track of those who are L176.2*? I know there are at least a few.

Honestly, I haven't been.

I may have to send out a  bulk email on that. I don't want to go through all those Haplotree pages in order to find out. It would be like hunting for a few needles in a very big haystack.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 20, 2010, 12:21:56 PM
Are you keeping track of those who are L176.2*? I know there are at least a few.
Goldenhind,

I'm asking Gareth Henson, SRY2627 & L176 project admin, the same question.

Thomas Krahn shows SRY2627 as a subclade of P312+ L176.2+.  He also shows L165 as a separate (brother) subclade of P312+ L176.2+.  This tree is "draft" only.  There might be some L176.2* out there as well.  This division and its locales, if it holds true, could be helpful in understanding P312 as a whole.
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root

ISOGG shows L165/S68 as a separate (brother) subclade of P312, just like SRY2627 and L21, etc. are.  They must feel L165 and SRY2627 are exclusive.  Of course, it is too early for them to declare L176.2, but we know there are some SRY2627+ that have L176.2+ and all (I think) L165+ so far are L176.2+.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

As best as I can tell from the P312 and SRY2627 project screens:

L176.2+ SRY2627- L165+

f163136   Thomas Ayton(Arton), b.c.1495, West Ayton, Scarborough, North Yorkshire, England
f54067   Willim M. McGirt, b.1881; d.1967
f99990   Sven Olofsson, b.c.1615, Orust Island, Västra Götaland Co., Bohuslän, Sweden
f40551   Thomas Greenwade, b.c.1800, Allegany Co., Maryland, USA

L176.2+ SRY2627- L165????

f41647   Thomas Miller, b.1797, Sunderland, Durham, England
f86995   Albert Pleis, b.1848, Hanover, Lower Saxony, Germany
f171839   John Noble, b.1800, Belfast, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland
f137480   John McLeod, b.c.1797, Ayrshire, Scotland

I don't know if anyone in this second group has tested for L165.  Do you?


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: GoldenHind on July 20, 2010, 01:53:23 PM
Plies was tested in the P312* WTY project, when (I believe) L176.2 was first discovered. Presumably L165 was part of that test. I believe Gareth offered those who were L176.2+ SRY2627- a place in his project, so presumably he should be able to answer your question.
If not, I have been in contact with Plies in the past, so I could ask him, as I suspect he has been keeping up on L176.2* results.

As an aside, I would note the confirmed L165 people mentioned above don't look particularly Celtic to me. Eupedia used to list it as a Germanic subclade, until they apparently realized this conflicted with their label of Italo- Celtic for P312, so now it is blank. One more example of the point I was trying to make in another thread about generalizations influencing the way data is interpreted.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: NealtheRed on July 20, 2010, 06:20:18 PM
Yes, this was the MacLeod association to which I referred in another post.

Hopefully Clan MacLeod found their Leod! The largest number of related MacLeods share the haplotype.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 23, 2010, 01:47:33 PM
Are you keeping track of those who are L176.2*? I know there are at least a few.
Goldenhind,

I'm asking Gareth Henson, SRY2627 & L176 project admin, the same question.

Thomas Krahn shows SRY2627 as a subclade of P312+ L176.2+.  He also shows L165 as a separate (brother) subclade of P312+ L176.2+.  This tree is "draft" only.  There might be some L176.2* out there as well.  This division and its locales, if it holds true, could be helpful in understanding P312 as a whole.
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root

ISOGG shows L165/S68 as a separate (brother) subclade of P312, just like SRY2627 and L21, etc. are.  They must feel L165 and SRY2627 are exclusive.  Of course, it is too early for them to declare L176.2, but we know there are some SRY2627+ that have L176.2+ and all (I think) L165+ so far are L176.2+.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
......
This is getting a little more interesting.. L176.2 that is.

Everyone so far that is L165+ is also L176.2+.  This is only a handful of people but it is holding true to-date.  These people are all SRY2626-.

Everyone so far that is SRY2627+ that has tested for L176.2 is L176.2+.  Gareth H, the SRY2627 admin, says there are 10 or so who have tested and are L176.2+.

I just saw the below post from Didier.

Quote from: Didier
I know that it's difficult to know all these new SNPs. Here is a reminder. R1b1b2 has a main division in U106+ and P312+ ; we will focus on this later group (P312+) .
L176 is a STR know in chimp as 4 tandem repeats of a pentanucleotide AAAAC on the Y chromosome. In man most people have 5 repeats of this  AAAAC but a few ones were found to have 6 repeats and they are called L176+ . Among WTY results one case was found in a R1a sample (probably "private") , in R-P312+ there are 3 groups : those tested SRY2627+ who tested for L176 (called L176.2) are all L176.2+  meaning 6 repeats AAAAC (10 cases so far) ; those tested L165+ the SNP of the well known "Irish type III" group also* are all L176.2+ ; in addition a few R-P312* were found L176.2+ and this situation led Thomas Krahn to post a tree where L176.2+ is a branching and SRY2627+ and L165+ become brother clades :
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root
L276 is a SNP found in one case so far (so still considered private).

This post as an upgrade and an open possibility for discussion/comments on the possible common origin of this branching.

*EDIT: corrected in latter post.  L226+ don't appear to have L176.2+ nor L159.2+.

Of course, Jim Wilson reportedly feels L165+ has Norse Viking connections.  Possible brother SRY2627+ is Iberian / southern French.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on July 23, 2010, 07:58:39 PM

. . .

Of course, Jim Wilson reportedly feels L165+ has Norse Viking connections.  Possible brother SRY2627+ is Iberian / southern French.


There are even a few SRY2627+ Scandinavians.

If L165 is Scandinavian, that could be another indication that perhaps the P312+ clades there came in with the Beaker Folk.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: NealtheRed on July 23, 2010, 08:50:10 PM
Could someone fill me in on SRY2627? Is that primarily Iberian? I didn't know some Scandinavians tested positive for it.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on July 23, 2010, 08:58:41 PM
Could someone fill me in on SRY2627? Is that primarily Iberian? I didn't know some Scandinavians tested positive for it.

It is found thus far primarily in Iberia and SW France, but there are a few SRY2627 in Scandinavia, and some elsewhere, as well. I know of a few right offhand in Germany and Belgium, for example. I could refer you to a couple of FTDNA projects, but apparently FTDNA project pages are down right now for maintenance.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 24, 2010, 05:16:47 AM
So basically the largely Iberian clade sry2627 and this possibly Scandinavian L-165 clade are brother clades from a common upstream ancestor L176.2 which itself is downstream of P312.  Do we know of any L176.2* people?  They would potentially indicate the common origin area and must be lurking among the P-312* people somewhere.  Wonder what the date is.  That puts the common ancestor in an equivalent position one down from P312 as L21, U152 etc and puts L165 and sry2627 in an equivalent position two down from p312 like the various historic period SNPs like M222 etc.  Does that tally in terms of variance?  I have no idea what the story behind L176.2. If it is a brother of L21 and U152 then it could be old but this is probably being far too simplistic.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on July 24, 2010, 08:54:02 AM
I think some of the guys who are L176.2+ but SRY2627- have not been tested for L165/S68. I doubt that all of them are L165+, but we won't know until they are tested for it.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: GoldenHind on July 24, 2010, 03:05:51 PM
I think some of the guys who are L176.2+ but SRY2627- have not been tested for L165/S68. I doubt that all of them are L165+, but we won't know until they are tested for it.

One person I know of who is L176.2*, ie SRY2627- and L165-, is Plies, whose ancestry is from Hannover in northern Germany. I believe there are a few others. I will check into it.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: GoldenHind on July 24, 2010, 09:02:57 PM
I have done some checking. The only other L176.2* besides Plies I can find is Miller from Sunderland, England. There was a third suspected, McLeod, but he later tested L165/S68+.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on August 31, 2010, 06:54:11 PM
MacDonald, Ysearch AWF2B, just got an S68+ (L165+) result from Ethnoancestry, so I've added him to the R-L165 category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-P312 and Subclades Project.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: bedlam49 on January 06, 2011, 08:47:01 AM
Hi,
My name is Alan, I am FTDNA 41647, the Miller you mentioned. I have sent for the L165 test but then found that it is the same as S68 for which I was tested at Ethnoancestry, Result was neg..

So I am P312+, L176.2+, SRY2627-, S68/L165-

For your info


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 06, 2011, 10:23:34 AM
Hi,
My name is Alan, I am FTDNA 41647, the Miller you mentioned. I have sent for the L165 test but then found that it is the same as S68 for which I was tested at Ethnoancestry, Result was neg..
So I am P312+, L176.2+, SRY2627-, S68/L165-
For your info
Thanks. Alan.
FQ7HW   41647   Thomas Miller, b.1797, Sunderland, Durham, England
7GZNQ   171839   John Noble, b.1800, Belfast, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland
QBRJW   86995   Albert Pleis, b.1848, Hanover, Lower Saxony, Germany
G3FQK   69443   Laurent Sarrazin, b.1880, Chauffayer, Haute-Alpes, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France

The first three above are P312+, L176.2+, SRY2627-, S68/L165- while the last one is P312+, L176.2+, SRY2627-, S68/L165 unknown.  My guess is he is L165- also and although there is no formal recognition by ISOGG it looks like you would be new paragroup called R-L176.2*.

This is an interesting group and possibly a clue as to the origins of two other groups: L165+ and SRY2627+.

L165 is considered Norse by EthnoAncestry while many consider SRY2627 Iberian, although it can be found scattered across France and Germany, as well as England.

Do you have any theories?


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: Lori McLeod Wilke on February 05, 2011, 08:22:16 PM
Hello, 

Wanted to let you know that an R-L165/S68 Project has been started (in January 2011) at FTDNA.  Here's the link:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

We're still setting up and recruiting possibles......We're seeing what appear to be clusters i.e. the Black Sub-Group of MacDonald with MacNeils of Barra and Buies of Jura....we have ordered tests for a Buie and and are hoping for a MacNeil to test as well.

7 MacLeods have tested positive out of the 58 who share a common haplotype and one more is awaiting his results.

Thanks all.



Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 07, 2011, 10:53:38 AM
Hello, 

Wanted to let you know that an R-L165/S68 Project has been started (in January 2011) at FTDNA.  Here's the link:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

We're still setting up and recruiting possibles......We're seeing what appear to be clusters i.e. the Black Sub-Group of MacDonald with MacNeils of Barra and Buies of Jura....we have ordered tests for a Buie and and are hoping for a MacNeil to test as well.

7 MacLeods have tested positive out of the 58 who share a common haplotype and one more is awaiting his results.

Thanks all.
Thank you for setting up the project.  Just to make sure I have it right, people in the first few categories (immediately below) are likely suspects but have not been tested for L165 yet, right?

Beall - L165 Test Recommended - See NEWS page for additional information)
C1 -Black Sub-Group of MacDonald - See News Page for additional information
C1-Buie of Jura TESTING (Genetic Match to Black Sub-Group of MacDonald)
C2 MacNeil (Genetic Match to the MacLeod Haplotype)
C2a-MacLeod Group - See News Page for additional information

Regards, Mike


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: Lori McLeod Wilke on February 19, 2011, 11:20:19 AM
Hello again,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner on this....

Ayton - two cousins from England - both positive - no close genetic matches


Cluster One - Genetic Matches
Black Sub-Group of MacDonald - 2 of 7 kits positive for L165 to date
Buie - 1 of three has results pending
MacNeil of Barra - MacNeil Project Leader encouraging member testing where appropriate


Beall - One positive for L165 (YSearch ID Beall-SXVA3) - he has not joined our L165/S68 project but 4 of his genetic matches have and hopefully will soon order the test.


Cluster two- Genetic Matches
MacLeod - 7 of 58 genetically matching MacLeod/McLeods have tested positive to date with two others awaiting their results.
McNeill - 3 men who genetically match the MacLeod Haplotype with one awaiting test results.
Childress - 1 of four genetically matched men positive
McGirt - posiitve
Ross - untested to date but discussion ongoing
Gallie - untested to date but again, discussion ongoing.

Hammer - positive - no close genetic matches

Greenwade - positive - no close genetic matches

Haag - positive - invited but not yet a member of the L165 project



Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: Lori McLeod Wilke on February 19, 2011, 11:44:10 AM
Tested L165/S68 Project Members as of 2/19/2011

40551    Greenwade

99990     Hammer  


137480    McLeod    (tested L176.2+)
41571    McLeod     
148833    McLeod    
66014    MacLeod    
27859    MacLeod    
47096    MacLeod    
N2981      MacLeod
163524    Childress    
54067    McGirt     
36748    MacLeod pending
99027      McLeod pending
173334    McNeill pending

188925    Ayton
163136    Ayton (tested L176.2+)

46281    MacDonald (tested L176.2+)
50928    McDonald
87332    Buie (of Jura) - pending

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?section=ysnp


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on April 13, 2011, 08:21:36 PM
There's a new R-L165 guy this evening: Bronson, kit 170048, Ysearch WZ86Z, ancestry in England.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: Lori McLeod Wilke on April 14, 2011, 10:41:44 AM
Thank you!   


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: Lori McLeod Wilke on April 14, 2011, 07:55:30 PM
Contacted  Brunson/Brownson who has now joined the L165 project - BUT, the results show L176.2 negative!  Contacting FTDNA to see what's up.  Will keep you informed.

Also have several more of our members receiving positive results - still waiting on the Buie result sent back in February.  All of our others who ordered test AFTER him have all received their results....strange.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on April 14, 2011, 08:38:20 PM
Contacted  Brunson/Brownson who has now joined the L165 project - BUT, the results show L176.2 negative!  Contacting FTDNA to see what's up.  Will keep you informed.

Also have several more of our members receiving positive results - still waiting on the Buie result sent back in February.  All of our others who ordered test AFTER him have all received their results....strange.

That's weird. I didn't catch that last night when I spotted the L165+ result.


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: Lori McLeod Wilke on April 15, 2011, 06:17:38 PM
We got it cleared up today - L176.2 reporting is done manually - it was a mistake.  Brownson is positive for L176.2~


Title: Re: New R-L165 Category at the R-P312 and Subclades Project
Post by: rms2 on April 15, 2011, 08:28:38 PM
We got it cleared up today - L176.2 reporting is done manually - it was a mistake.  Brownson is positive for L176.2~

Very good. Glad that's out of the way.