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Title: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 18, 2010, 01:30:41 PM
Thanks to Robert Tarin for his crack detective work.

King Tut was Pharoah of Egypt from 1333 BC – 1324 BC, or 3300 ybp. This is a shocker to some, but given Vince V's work, it seems logical enough.  

They had chariots in Egypt at that time, right?  At least Yul Brynner did.
http://tiny.cc/JUQH9

From Robert Tarin on Rootsweb on2/18
Quote
List,

I had an eureka moment in deciphering the marker values displayed for King
Tutankhamun's lineage in the video clip at this link:
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line
html

I should point out that in the video they are actually comparing results for
Akhenatan against those of Amenhotep III and not Tutankhamun himself. They said they had to find at least 10 identical markers to prove the
relationship, which they did. In the recently released study, they clearly
identify Akhenatan as the father of Tutankhamun thus making Amenhotep III
the grandfather. The Y-DNA haplotype should most probably be the same for
all three.

I believe I have solved the mystery of Tutankhamun's Y-DNA haplotype and
most surprising, if accurate as portrayed in the video, his haplogroup
appears to be R1b.

Sixteen (17 if you count 385a and 385b) STRs were identified using the
AmpF\STR Yfiler PCR amplification kit from Applied Biosystems. In the video
the display follows the order of the Yfiler v2 program. The STR peaks can
clearly be seen and I only needed to determine the range of values used for
each marker. I did that from Yfiler website itself at
http://www.appliedbiosystems.com/yfilerdatabase/

It was then simply a matter of counting the peaks using the appropriate
range for each marker. Here is what I found from the video clip. Hopefully I
am accurate. The values for DYS393 and YGATAH4 are already revealed in their
published study as 13 and 11 respectively. There is a conversion (-1) for
YGATAH4 to achieve FtDNA nomenclature. I don't think any others need
conversion.

456 (13-18) = 15
389i (9-16) = 13
390 (17-28) = 24
389ii (24-34) = 30
458 (14-20) = 16
19 (10-19) = 8/14 (dual peak)
385a (7-25) = 11
385b (7-25) = 14 (? not clear in video)
393 (8-17) = 13
391 (6-14) = 11
439 (8-15) = 10
635 (19-26) = 23
392 (6-18) = 13
YGATAH4 (8-13) = 11 (10 FtDNA nomenclature)
437 (13-18) = 9/14 (dual peak)
438 (8-13) = 12
448 (16-24) = 19

Comments are welcome.



Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: bart otoole on February 18, 2010, 01:54:53 PM
If ER7RQ is the ySearch ID for Tut, then he's a GD of 8 on 16 for me.

LOL


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on February 18, 2010, 02:44:38 PM
Some folks are thinking that video might be stock footage and not actually represent Tut's pherogram.

We won't know until the results are released officially.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on February 18, 2010, 02:50:53 PM
The link didn't work.
Try here:
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line.html


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 18, 2010, 03:13:55 PM
If Tut will be really an R1b1b2, probably R-U152, I'd search among the Shardana (them Sardinians, then Italians). They were the body guards of Pharaons (and of course of their sisters).


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on February 18, 2010, 03:49:44 PM
If Tut will be really an R1b1b2, probably R-U152, I'd search among the Shardana (them Sardinians, then Italians). They were the body guards of Pharaons (and of course of their sisters).

That bodyguard would have had to be the father of Amenhotep, Tut's grandfather, since the reports say Tut matches his grandfather, Amenhotep, and his (Tut's) father, Akhenaton.

Wouldn't the Egyptians have been careful to use only eunuchs to safeguard the females of the royal household?


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 18, 2010, 04:25:09 PM
Don't you think it is very strange that Mr. Hawass hasn't published the results? Latins said  "Excusatio non petita accusatio manifesta".
Don't you think that if he had found an hg. E or J he would have certainly published them?
I use irony, as I am usual to do, but I am very serious.

Vizachero used his potato spirit (as we Italians say) when Mayka published on "Genealogy-dna" that the closest to Tut was a Prussian. But the Prussians of the ancient Mediterranean were the Shardanas, fearful mercenaries who probably seeded their R1b1*, R1b1a, R1b1b2 (beside I-M26 etc.) not only in Egypt.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on February 18, 2010, 06:51:01 PM
I found it interesting that Tut, the Amesbury Archer and the archer's companion had problems with their feet.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/02/100216-king-tut-malaria-bones-inbred-tutankhamun/

King Tut Mysteries Solved: Was Disabled, Malarial, and Inbred

"Picture instead a frail, weak boy who had a bit of a club foot and who needed a cane to walk."

http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/amesbury/archer.html

The Amesbury Archer

http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/amesbury/relative_intro.html

The Archer's Companion

"An analysis of the bones later showed that he and the Archer were related as they both had the same unusual bone structure in their feet – the heel bone had a joint with one of the upper tarsal bones in the foot. This proves they were related, and it is even possible that they were father and son, though this is not certain."


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on February 18, 2010, 07:06:44 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt_king_tut

A frail King Tut died from malaria, broken leg

"Like his grandfather, he had a club foot"


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on February 18, 2010, 08:00:22 PM
Don't you think it is very strange that Mr. Hawass hasn't published the results? Latins said  "Excusatio non petita accusatio manifesta".
Don't you think that if he had found an hg. E or J he would have certainly published them?
I use irony, as I am usual to do, but I am very serious . . .

I have wondered about that myself. I seem to remember that a few years ago there was some controversy about testing the royal mummies, as if those in the know in Egypt had something to hide.

It would be rather embarrassing to them to have to admit that their pharaohs were R1b of some kind.

That would also be quite a blow to the Afrocentrists here in the USA.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on February 18, 2010, 09:25:17 PM
Is 3000 years in the ball-park for R1B entering the Isles?

What is R1b doing in North Africa with ancient Egyptians at that time?


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on February 18, 2010, 09:34:53 PM
Is 3000 years in the ball-park for R1B entering the Isles?

What is R1b doing in North Africa with ancient Egyptians at that time?

Someone on Rootsweb mentioned that Amenhotep's line was regarded as an "outsider" line and that perhaps it was Hittite in origin. Someone else mentioned the Hyksos, but I think they were earlier than Amenhotep's time.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: vtilroe on February 18, 2010, 11:36:35 PM
Follow up from Rootsweb (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-02/1266545829):

Quote
List,

For all those questioning whether the screenshots in the video are "stock
samples" or default results from the AmpF\STR Yfiler kit, another clue has
been sleuthed out. My friend Gary Felix, from the Mexico DNA Project, asked
me about the wording at the top far left seen at 01:53 into the video. I
looked at it again and believe it reads as follows: "AmIII(20)_u_0.5Liz". I
wasn't sure if this could be referring to the AmpF\STR Yfiler kit or to the
name Amenhotep III as some abbreviated filename. Gary's question prompted me
to look again for a filename in the results above that. Lo and behold, at
01:55 in the video, the entry above had a name of "KV55(25)_5_572608" if I
read correctly. This apparently refers to Akhenaten (KV55) as revealed in
the published study. These two particular results are for markers DYS456 and
DYS389i and the fact that there are "filenames" referencing Amenhotep III
and Akhenaten speaks greatly for these being genuine results and not some
"sample" or default screenshot. It turns out that they did not get a strong
result for DYS456 on Amenhotep III although you can see the slight start of
a peak at 15 and this would match, along with the DYS389i=13, those for
Akhenaten. So my hat goes off to Gary for nudging me along into further
sleuthing. I think in time, hopefully soon, the truth will be revealed.

Here is the link to the video again should you need it.
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line.html

Robert Tarín

Looks like the video is the real deal, and if Robert interpreted the numbers right, it sure looks like Amenhotep's line was R1b1b2, perhaps even R1b1b2a!  I sure hope someone has plans to do a full deep-clade R test on Tutty-Boy so we can put an end to the speculation.  :o)


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on February 19, 2010, 12:02:30 AM
I saw that! There is some nice detective work going on there. Here is the foot deformity under investigation in the mummies.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-family-deformities.html


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on February 19, 2010, 10:33:05 PM
Follow up from Rootsweb (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-02/1266545829):

Quote
List,

For all those questioning whether the screenshots in the video are "stock
samples" or default results from the AmpF\STR Yfiler kit, another clue has
been sleuthed out. My friend Gary Felix, from the Mexico DNA Project, asked
me about the wording at the top far left seen at 01:53 into the video. I
looked at it again and believe it reads as follows: "AmIII(20)_u_0.5Liz". I
wasn't sure if this could be referring to the AmpF\STR Yfiler kit or to the
name Amenhotep III as some abbreviated filename. Gary's question prompted me
to look again for a filename in the results above that. Lo and behold, at
01:55 in the video, the entry above had a name of "KV55(25)_5_572608" if I
read correctly. This apparently refers to Akhenaten (KV55) as revealed in
the published study. These two particular results are for markers DYS456 and
DYS389i and the fact that there are "filenames" referencing Amenhotep III
and Akhenaten speaks greatly for these being genuine results and not some
"sample" or default screenshot. It turns out that they did not get a strong
result for DYS456 on Amenhotep III although you can see the slight start of
a peak at 15 and this would match, along with the DYS389i=13, those for
Akhenaten. So my hat goes off to Gary for nudging me along into further
sleuthing. I think in time, hopefully soon, the truth will be revealed.

Here is the link to the video again should you need it.
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line.html

Robert Tarín

Looks like the video is the real deal, and if Robert interpreted the numbers right, it sure looks like Amenhotep's line was R1b1b2, perhaps even R1b1b2a!  I sure hope someone has plans to do a full deep-clade R test on Tutty-Boy so we can put an end to the speculation.  :o)

Whoa!

That's about all I can say. I need a shot of vodka and a comfortable seat.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on February 20, 2010, 08:52:01 AM
So, it looks like that video footage was of Tut's authentic pharaoh-gram. :-)


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: NealtheRed on February 20, 2010, 10:03:16 AM
That is pretty neat-o.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on February 20, 2010, 11:15:21 AM
That is pretty neat-o.

It sure is! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHngF_b3NuE&feature=related)


Title: Tut DNA
Post by: KaiserT on February 21, 2010, 03:56:49 AM
Great job Bob Tarin!

A question: Are Tut's 10-marker matches with two R1b1b2 guys on ySearch good enough to suggest that he was also from this sub-clade? I thought a deep-clade test SNP would be the surest bet.

Another question: R1b1b2 presence in West Asia is said to be around 5.5%. Any guesses what would genetic drift have done to it 3,000 years ago? In other words, could today's frequencey distribution figures be representative of three millenia?


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on February 21, 2010, 11:02:03 AM
snp's are the way to go.

ftdna predicts your haplo group once you get a 12 sequence, much the same as these people have predicted Tut's group.

So does this point towards Turkey as the R1b1b2 homeland?
Could some R1b1* have arrived in Europe as Phoenicians?


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 21, 2010, 11:39:11 AM
snp's are the way to go.

ftdna predicts your haplo group once you get a 12 sequence, much the same as these people have predicted Tut's group.

So does this point towards Turkey as the R1b1b2 homeland?
Could some R1b1* have arrived in Europe as Phoenicians?
Most of what I've read on Phoenicians is they were a heavy  of some J2 types along with a little T sprinkled in.  There are "matches" of haplotype patterns with J2 and T between some of the old Phoenician colony locations (i.e. Cadiz, Spain) and Lebanon (the supposed home base of Phoenicia.)

My question is when did chariots start appearing in Egypt?  David Anthony thinks chariots were first developed in the Pontic Steppes and to the north.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: KaiserT on February 21, 2010, 12:08:09 PM
So does this point towards Turkey as the R1b1b2 homeland?
Could some R1b1* have arrived in Europe as Phoenicians?

A latest paper A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages, Patricia Balaresque et al, Jan 2010 concludes the source of R1b1b2 as Turkey, with a Neolithic spread mostly into Europe and to a much lesser degree into West Asia.

Quote: R1b1b2 was carried as a rapidly expanding lineage from the Near East via Anatolia to the western fringe of Europe during the Neolithic. Such mutations arising at the front of a wave of expansion have a high probability of surviving and being propagated, and can reach high frequencies far from their source. Our interpretation of the history of hgR1b1b2 now makes Europe a prime example of how expansion of a Y-chromosomal lineage tends to accompany technological and cultural change.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on February 21, 2010, 02:34:09 PM
I think i skimmed over a news article that related J with the Phoenicians. I remember some people wondering if they descended from them.

My thinking is.. Phonecia is directly between Egypt and the Hittites in Turkey.
The Hittites were an Indo-Euro group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites  
I believe there could have been R1b's around there back then. Obviously there was one.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on February 22, 2010, 12:33:14 AM
I found Table 3 posted at the first link interesting, also. 

http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4848&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/303/7/667?home

Scoliosis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoliosis

kyphoscoliosis

(Spinal deformity combining sideways curvature and hunching forward of the upper part of the spine)

Table 3. Annomalies and Diseases in This Collection of 18th-Dynasty Mummies

Other Malformations:

Tutankhamun (KV62) - mild kyphoscoliosis

Tutankhamum kindred:

Thuya (KV46) - severe kyphoscoliosis
Akhenaten (KV55) - cleft palate, scoliosis
Amenhotep III (KV35) - Clubfoot
KV35YL - Scoliosis
Tiye (KV35EL) - Mild Scoliosis
Fetus 2 (KV62) - Mild Scoliosis
KV21A - Scoliosis, Clubfeet
KV21B - Scoliosis, Clubfeet


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on February 22, 2010, 12:45:58 PM
Some of those ailments can be found in my family, and relatives.
Perhaps many R1b people have related health issues.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I was looking at chariot use at wiki

Egypt
The chariot, together with the horse itself, was introduced to Egypt by the Hyksos invaders in the 16th century BC and undoubtedly contributed to their military success. In the remains of Egyptian and Assyrian art there are numerous representations of chariots, from which it may be seen with what richness they were sometimes ornamented. The chariots of the Egyptians and Assyrians, with whom the bow was the principal arm of attack, were richly mounted with quivers full of arrows. The Egyptians invented the yoke saddle for their chariot horses in ca. 1500 BC. The best preserved examples of Egyptian chariots are the four specimens from the tomb of Tutankhamun  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on February 22, 2010, 01:15:55 PM
"Some of those ailments can be found in my family, and relatives.
Perhaps many R1b people have related health issues."

Scoliosis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoliosis

"This condition affects approximately 7 million people in the United States."

"The role of genetic factors in the development of this condition is widely accepted."

Kyphosis aka Hunchback

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyphosis


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on February 25, 2010, 10:31:19 AM
I wonder how K.T. measures up to the R1b in Africa?

Wiki says:
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
In human genetics, Haplogroup R1b is the most frequently occurring Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe, Bashkortostan[3] and amongst speakers of Chadic languages in northern parts of sub-Saharan Central Africa"

aaaaaaaa

Dienekes:
The R1b1*-in-Africa mystery thickens. At first, these typically Eurasian chromosomes had been found in Cameroon, but they seem to be found in many populations
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/04/paternal-traces-of-bantu-expansion.html



Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: argiedude on February 25, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
No one's talking about the TMRCA implications of this supposed R1b sample. Amenhotep III, greatgrandfather of Tutankhamun and apparently R1b, was born about 3400 years ago. The age of the various R1b1b2-ht15 clades is about 3500 years. The apparent haplotype of these pharaos is ht15.

Maybe the sample could also be an ht35, with the occasional 393=13, and this would fit a little better, since the TMRCA of ht35 is 500 to 1000 years earlier than ht15. But then again, at the time of Amenhotep, ht35 would have been only some 700 years old, kind of like M222 today. And that means its diversity would be extremely reduced and it would be a lot rarer to find an ht35 with 393=13, unlike today, in which as many as 10% of ht35 samples have 393=13.

The sample is almost guaranteed to not belong to R1b1*, because it failed in 2 crucial STRs that separate R1b1* from R1b1b2. Almost no R1b1* has DYS19=14, and almost no R1b1* has 385a=11. These 2 values are instead modal in R1b1b2, both ht15 and ht35, and these are the 2 values found in the supposed ancient haplotype, so it's really almost guaranteed that the haplotype is R1b1b2, and not R1b1*. If the sample had been R1b1* there wouldn't be TMRCA issues, because the ages of some of these clades seem to go to 5000 years ago, but in the case of R1b1b2 the timeline just barely fits, and considering the extra problems of the pretty distant center of origin of ht35 and ht15, the whole thing looks pretty bad.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: vtilroe on February 26, 2010, 12:41:15 AM
No one's talking about the TMRCA implications of this supposed R1b sample. Amenhotep III, greatgrandfather of Tutankhamun and apparently R1b, was born about 3400 years ago. The age of the various R1b1b2-ht15 clades is about 3500 years. The apparent haplotype of these pharaos is ht15.

Maybe the sample could also be an ht35, with the occasional 393=13, and this would fit a little better, since the TMRCA of ht35 is 500 to 1000 years earlier than ht15. But then again, at the time of Amenhotep, ht35 would have been only some 700 years old, kind of like M222 today. And that means its diversity would be extremely reduced and it would be a lot rarer to find an ht35 with 393=13, unlike today, in which as many as 10% of ht35 samples have 393=13.

The sample is almost guaranteed to not belong to R1b1*, because it failed in 2 crucial STRs that separate R1b1* from R1b1b2. Almost no R1b1* has DYS19=14, and almost no R1b1* has 385a=11. These 2 values are instead modal in R1b1b2, both ht15 and ht35, and these are the 2 values found in the supposed ancient haplotype, so it's really almost guaranteed that the haplotype is R1b1b2, and not R1b1*. If the sample had been R1b1* there wouldn't be TMRCA issues, because the ages of some of these clades seem to go to 5000 years ago, but in the case of R1b1b2 the timeline just barely fits, and considering the extra problems of the pretty distant center of origin of ht35 and ht15, the whole thing looks pretty bad.


Well, assuming that the haplotype is actually correct, MRCA implications are one reason I doubt Tut was much more recent than L51.  It's highly improbable he's either P312 or U106 - but it would be absolutely stunning if he was.  I just wish Dr. Hawass would agree to run a deep-clade SNP test on the dude so we could know for sure.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: vineviz on February 26, 2010, 12:06:20 PM
Well, assuming that the haplotype is actually correct, MRCA implications are one reason I doubt Tut was much more recent than L51.  It's highly improbable he's either P312 or U106 - but it would be absolutely stunning if he was.  I just wish Dr. Hawass would agree to run a deep-clade SNP test on the dude so we could know for sure.
I doubt there is enough DNA for a DeepClade test, but any event it pays to remember that TMRCA estimates are just that: estimates.  If someone says that the TMRCA of some clade is 3.5 kya, you should mentally convert that to "between 2.5 and 5 kya" or something like it.

VV


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 26, 2010, 01:40:09 PM
"If someone says that the TMRCA of some clade is 3.5 kya, you should mentally convert that to "between 2.5 and 5 kya" or something like it. VV"

Thank you, Monsieur Lapalisse, but in this case 2.5 is unlikly, being dear Tut dead  more than 3,300 YBP!


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 26, 2010, 02:02:14 PM
"I doubt there is enough DNA for a DeepClade test".  What? They have tested autosomal STRs through all chromosomes. They know very well Tut's Y, but it is a little bit astonishing his haplogroup and they haven't divulged it.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamu
Post by: vineviz on February 26, 2010, 06:35:48 PM
Thank you, Monsieur Lapalisse, but in this case 2.5 is unlikly, being dear Tut dead  more than 3,300 YBP!

The date of Tut's death has no bearing on TMRCA estimate for living men.

VV


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 26, 2010, 06:56:56 PM
But, as I have said many times here and elsewhere, that haplotype, very close to many haplotypes of today (and if nobody have said to you that it has 3,300 years you should have taken it for an actual haplotype), demonstrates that mutations happen mostly around the modal and that your calculations (yours and of Klyosov's) are greatly wrong. Next similar tests will demonstrate similar haplotypes not only 3,300 YBP, but probably 5,000, 7,000 and so on.
At this point I hope that someone tests Otzi and other ancient Europeans.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: vineviz on February 26, 2010, 08:38:04 PM
But, as I have said many times here and elsewhere, that haplotype, very close to many haplotypes of today (and if nobody have said to you that it has 3,300 years you should have taken it for an actual haplotype), demonstrates that mutations happen mostly around the modal and that your calculations (yours and of Klyosov's) are greatly wrong.

You can say it many more times in many more places, but you will always be incorrect.  Mutations do not happen "around the modal".  At best, that's terrible description of what is actually going on.  At worst, it betrays a lack of knowledge about genetic processes.

VV


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 27, 2010, 01:03:21 AM
I have said that mutations happen "mostly around the modal" except when they go for the tangent, and Tut's DYS439=10 is a case of a mutation gone for the tangent from a modal =12, then also this demonstrates its ancientness already 3,300 years ago of what is probably a  R1b1b2-U152+.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on February 27, 2010, 09:47:37 AM
I have said that mutations happen "mostly around the modal" except when they go for the tangent, and Tut's DYS439=10 is a case of a mutation gone for the tangent from a modal =12, then also this demonstrates its ancientness already 3,300 years ago of what is probably a  R1b1b2-U152+.

What makes you think Tut is U152+?

We're in danger of that becoming an urban legend. The "Tut might be U152" thing started when someone mistakenly thought he had 393=9, and someone else said the only 393=9 he had ever seen was a U152+. But it turns out Tut's value at that marker is the much more prosaic 13, so it doesn't seem likely he is U152+.



Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 27, 2010, 10:00:52 AM
If you compare the Tut's data on Ysearch, as I have done, probably the closest are R-U152. My friend Malvolti, I tested at SMGF, is probably a R-U152, being closest to an Italian who lives in a Gallo-Italic town of Sicily, and he is the closest Italian to Tut at a GD of 6. And if it is true my hypothesis that Tut comes from a Shardana, R-U152 is probably the most diffused R1b1b2 among Sardinians. You could say that I haven't proofs, but I have a long experience in finding relatives to a Y data, and I have never been wrong. Certainly we all would be glad that Mr. Hawass gives data he certainly has. But at this point to test ancient DNA  is pretty easy and we'll have soon the answers to all our questions. I hope that someone is testing Otzi now and also the Rozen''s SNPs. The work of the Egyptian team, where there were also Germans and Italians, has been an incredible thing: see the autosomal SNPs.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on February 27, 2010, 10:16:44 AM
Six is a long way off the few markers that Tarin has been able to decipher for Tut. If money were changing hands, I would bet that Tut is not U152+, but who knows?

I agree that the latest developments in the y-dna testing of very old remains are extremely exciting.

I'm sure that eventually they will dig up the medieval corpse of Slobo the Village Idiot, and then I will get an exact match. ;-)


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on February 27, 2010, 12:36:13 PM
“I'm sure that eventually they will dig up the medieval corpse of Slobo the Village Idiot, and then I will get an exact match. ;-)”

That cracked me up, Rich.

I’m not the smartest guy around, either, however, I can guarantee you that hunchback exists. I have had what one doctor described as a “hump” surgically removed. It was about the size of two silver dollars stacked four or five high. Not all that big as “humps” go, but it was starting to bother me when I sat in a chair for more than a few minutes. I would characterize it as a buffalo hump, which was extra fat around the upper part of the back where I start to hunch over.

As for Hawass, I doubt if they will reveal a haplogroup any time soon. And I agree with the Sea People assessment.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/seapeople.htm


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: argiedude on February 27, 2010, 01:08:58 PM
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/TutankhamunTMRCAproblem.gif

(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/TutankhamunTMRCAproblem.gif)

Tutankhamun's alleged haplotype is a GD of 7 from the R1b1b2-ht15 modal. Above I made a comparison with Irish M222+, which likely has a similar age as R1b1b2-ht15 had at the time of Tutankhamun.

The 3,500 year old TMRCA estimate for R1b1b2 was obtained several times in different ht15 lineages, greatly reducing the likelihood that this estimate could be off by a huge margin.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamu
Post by: vineviz on February 27, 2010, 03:25:25 PM
The 3,500 year old TMRCA estimate for R1b1b2 was obtained several times in different ht15 lineages, greatly reducing the likelihood that this estimate could be off by a huge margin.

Of course if you are only using AMH-like haplotypes, you are not actually estimating the TMRCA of R1b1b2 at all, but something more recent than that.

And if you are using intraclade variance, you aren not estimating TMRCA of anything at all.

Plus, even estimating different lines  doesn't increase the precision of your estimate all that much since a portion of the phylogeny is not actually independent for each line.

Never mind the fact that there could be some systematic error (e.g. underestimation or overestimation) that are model dependent, not sample dependent.

The long and short of it is that the statistical confidence interval for any TMRCA estimates of R1b1b2 is going to be +/- 25% or 30% PLUS any uncertainty from the model itself. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

VV


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 27, 2010, 05:58:09 PM
All this talk of Egyptian ht15 almost the same age as ht15 MRCA dates does remind me of one thing.  It would only take a small amount of ancient y-DNA results to potentially seroulsy change what we think about clade dating.  A small sample is not reliable as negative evidence but it is rock solid positive evidence.  Every sample will create a MINIMUM age for a particular clade, something archaeologgists call a terminus anti quem.  That is why I hope they go for the early Neolithic.  We already have Bronze Age and late Neolithic testing.  I think the earlier you start in period terms the more spectacular the potential knowledge gain.  There are too few pre-Neolithic burials to get our hopes too high for much testing of that period but there is a huge amount of early Neolithic material. 


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: GoldenHind on February 27, 2010, 09:45:47 PM
Six is a long way off the few markers that Tarin has been able to decipher for Tut. If money were changing hands, I would bet that Tut is not U152+, but who knows?


Agreed. Every time some ancient R1b haplotype is found, several people rush forward to proclaim the subclade, and it is no surprise that it usually matches their own. The folly of attempting to predict R1b1b2 subclades from a handful of STR markers has been established over and over.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamu
Post by: NealtheRed on February 28, 2010, 12:39:49 AM
Six is a long way off the few markers that Tarin has been able to decipher for Tut. If money were changing hands, I would bet that Tut is not U152+, but who knows?


Agreed. Every time some ancient R1b haplotype is found, several people rush forward to proclaim the subclade, and it is no surprise that it usually matches their own. The folly of attempting to predict R1b1b2 subclades from a handful of STR markers has been established over and over.

LOL I think I'll take Rich's example and use the village idiot scenario - except my folks loved their whiskey!


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 28, 2010, 06:08:13 AM
Argiedude, not taking in account the point of departure, i.e. the base modal haplotype (like also Vineviz has pointed out), your diagram demonstrates that the distance of R-M222+ from his base haplotype has a peak (Gauss curve) at GD=2, whereas the R1b1b2 has it at GD=5. Then the distance isn’t of 700 years, but at least 1,750 years from the supposed origin of R-U152+ (if Tut’s  haplotype is really so). Then we should date R-U152+ at least 5,000YBP (and this is the date also of the most distant R-U152 in Germany). If R-U152 has this ancientness, it isn’t unlikely my theory that R1b1b2-L150+ has some thousands of years more. And your presumptions of the base haplotype are all to be demonstrated.

I invite mathematicians like Ken Nordtvedt to exam your diagram, as in it there are all the data of mutations and back mutations.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamu
Post by: vineviz on February 28, 2010, 11:54:01 AM
All this talk of Egyptian ht15 almost the same age as ht15 MRCA dates does remind me of one thing.  It would only take a small amount of ancient y-DNA results to potentially seroulsy change what we think about clade dating. 

Just remember two things, though.

One is that even if you accept the Tut STRs, it does not necessarily follow that he was ht15.  He could quite easily be P310-, for example.  We have extant haplotypes that are P310- and which are DYS393=13, so this isn't hard to imagine.

The other is that, at a broader level, you remember that the TMRCA estimates we make for living R1b1b2 men is not necessarily affected by discoveries of ancient DNA.  There is a long period (the time between  12 kya and 6 kya, more or less) when there were WAY more than one single R1b1b2 man walking around.  We already know this.  So finding a skeleton from, say 10kya which is M269+ wouldn't be telling us anything new.  Finding a 10kya skeleton with a  WAMH-ish STR haplotype would tell us even less if they fail to test for SNPs.

On the other hand, finding a 10 kya skeleton that is L21+ would be quite revealing.  So the devil will (as always) be in the details.

I add these cautions only because I think people in some quarters are developing a romantic vision of what ancient DNA will be able to tell us.  A robust collection of ancient Y haplotypes and genotypes will be great data, but even a wide sample will not necessarily put a bound (upper or lower) on other types of inferences.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamu
Post by: argiedude on February 28, 2010, 01:22:27 PM
your diagram demonstrates that the distance of R-M222+ from his base haplotype has a peak (Gauss curve) at GD=2, whereas the R1b1b2 has it at GD=5. Then the distance isn’t of 700 years, but at least 1,750 years from the supposed origin of R-U152+ (if Tut’s  haplotype is really so).

I did some variance estimates of M222 and it looks like its age would be 1500 years, not the 700 that I've always read about. This would only make my point even pointier, since the alleged Tutankhamun haplotype would then have existed at a time when the diversity of ht15 was half of the diversity of today's M222.

One is that even if you accept the Tut STRs, it does not necessarily follow that he was ht15.  He could quite easily be P310-, for example.  We have extant haplotypes that are P310- and which are DYS393=13, so this isn't hard to imagine.

But current P310- haplotypes are almost indistinguishable from ht15, meaning they probably originated together with other ht15 lineages in a very short period of time, separated by a few hundred years.

The other is that, at a broader level, you remember that the TMRCA estimates we make for living R1b1b2 men is not necessarily affected by discoveries of ancient DNA.

It's about probabilities. The fact that R1b1b2 has a TMRCA somewhere around 4000+ years ago means there was a bottleneck back then. R1b1b2 couldn't have been very widespread geographically, otherwise it would be highly likely many of the R1b1b2 pockets throughout its range wouldn't have suffered a bottleneck, and today we'd be talking about a further back TMRCA for R1b1b2. It's not technically impossible for Tutankhamun to have belonged to a lineage that came into existence just 1000 years earlier in a relatively far away place, but it strongly calls the attention.

I made a similar observation when the Eulau R1a was discovered. Can anyone remind us the age of the Eulau samples? And the non-Zhivo TMRCA of R1a? I think both are around 4500 years?


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamu
Post by: vineviz on February 28, 2010, 02:44:09 PM
But current P310- haplotypes are almost indistinguishable from ht15, meaning they probably originated together with other ht15 lineages in a very short period of time, separated by a few hundred years.
The TMRCA of R-M269 could 30% or so greater than the TMRCA of R-P310.  That's enough of a difference to matter in this case to the people who are obsessed with this particular case.

It's about probabilities. The fact that R1b1b2 has a TMRCA somewhere around 4000+ years ago means there was a bottleneck back then.

Your explanation is greatly exaggerating the role that bottlenecks play.  You aren't the only one, but it usually amounts to hand waving.  Buyer beware, in other words.

VV


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Maliclavelli on March 01, 2010, 01:06:38 AM
Vineviz says: “The TMRCA of R-M269 could 30% or so greater than the TMRCA of R-P310.  That's enough of a difference to matter in this case to the people who are obsessed with this particular case”.

If the people is Maliclavelli, alias Gioiello Tognoni, I can say that this is the most important reason of our battle from many years and of all my banishments. It isn’t the same if R1b1* and subclades are 5,000 years old or 10,000 or more and it isn’t the same if they were in Italy or in SW Asia and this is what we’ll be able to see next, very next I think.
In your ancestors’  language these your last words would be said “mettere le mani avanti”.



Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on March 04, 2010, 08:17:09 PM
DNA Shows that KV55 Mummy Probably Not Akhenaten

http://www.kv64.info/2010/03/dna-shows-that-kv55-mummy-probably-not.html


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on March 04, 2010, 08:34:44 PM
Wouldn't Hawass et al know which mummy they got the sample from?


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on March 04, 2010, 08:59:21 PM
It's probably all under wraps.....(chuckle chuckle)


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Heber on March 05, 2010, 02:24:13 PM
There is an interesting analysis and pictures of the mummies on the following link.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/27/the-lineage-of-king-tutankhamun-from-ancient-dna-analysis/


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: GoldenHind on March 06, 2010, 05:29:37 PM
Wouldn't Hawass et al know which mummy they got the sample from?
Ankenaten's mummy was not found in his tomb in Amarna. Because of his heretical religious beliefs, his city of Amarna was abandoned and his monuments despoiled when the old religion regained controlled after his death. The identification of the mummy in KV 55 as Ankenaten was always highly speculative, the theory being that it had been removed there during the great upheaval after his death.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on March 06, 2010, 06:35:24 PM
I wasn't aware there was a controversy, but Egyptian history was never really my thing.

But if they are sure they have the right Tut, and if he matches KV55, which is the alleged mummy of Akhenaten, and Akhenaten is supposed to have been Tut's father, then doesn't that lend credibility to the idea that KV55 is Akhenaten?


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: GoldenHind on March 06, 2010, 08:18:17 PM
I may be in error, but I thought Tut's Ydna was matched to that of the mummy of Amenhotep III, who was Akenaten's father. The identity of Amenhotep III's mummy is not in doubt. If that of KV55 also matches, that would support the theory it is that of Akenaten. I conceed I have not followed it closely.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on March 07, 2010, 09:26:59 AM

Here is the Tut Press Release
http://www.drhawass.com/blog/press-release-discovery-family-secrets-king-tutankhamun


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: rms2 on March 07, 2010, 09:31:48 AM
I may be in error, but I thought Tut's Ydna was matched to that of the mummy of Amenhotep III, who was Akenaten's father. The identity of Amenhotep III's mummy is not in doubt. If that of KV55 also matches, that would support the theory it is that of Akenaten. I conceed I have not followed it closely.

Well, I can't say I have been following it all that closely either, but I thought the whole kit-and-kaboodle of pharaoh mummies - Amenhotep III, Akhenaten, and Tut - matched on the y-dna side.

Remember this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgTPH5y1-ZI&feature=related)?


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on March 09, 2010, 12:46:43 PM
As I read the Kate Phizackerley abstract, it seemed she was attempting to say Smenkhkare was an outsider and therefore not Egyptian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smenkhkare#Dakhamunzu


"DNA Shows that KV55 Mummy Probably Not Akhenaten"

http://www.kv64.info/2010/03/dna-shows-that-kv55-mummy-probably-not.html


"Enter Smenkhare?"

 "can be resolved by instead identifying the KV55 mummy as an unknown prince. There is no way to name this prince but he would seem to fit what is known of Smenkhare and, for convenience at least, I’ll work with this attribution throughout the rest of this paper.

The mummy of Akhenaten would remain missing or unidentified."


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on March 12, 2010, 12:57:39 AM
Here is another Kate Phizackerley post. It seems in Egyptology Hawass controls the agenda. 

March 11, 2010

http://www.kv64.info/2010/03/akhenaten-museum-planned.html

Akhenaten Museum Planned

"With Hawass stating strongly in the media that the KV55 mummy is Akhenaten - and needing the mummy as the centrepiece of this new musuem, and with another member of the team (above) stating that the DNA data supports only one solution, it will be very difficult now for the team to admit any alternatives.  I have shown in earlier posts that the published DNA strongly suggests this mummy cannot be Akhenaten and proven that alternative interpretations are absolutely possible.  I lack the academic credentials to be taken seriously.  I can only hope that a doctor or professor will take up the baton and publish to show that the KV55 mummy has probably been misidentified by the Hawass team. Unless of course, there is something in the unpublished data which materially changes things, but I find it hard to envisage anything that could."


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on March 21, 2010, 09:08:51 AM
I have one last comment for this thread. The foot deformity investigated in this video appears to me as a distorted dystonic foot. Depending on the age of death of this person, I would suggest Egyptologists consider Parkinson’s or Dystonia.


http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-family-deformities.html


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on March 29, 2010, 05:44:34 PM
Pardon my inability to talk y-dna proficiently as I have just started studying this wonderful science.  As I am a long time amateur genealogist but short time amateur geneticist I am wondering if someone can help me with a question.  I recently had a series of tests done with genebase (I know probably a bad choice).  I have had good response from them but there is not much help identifying what the snp's mean, etc. 

At any rate I compared some of my snps to King Tut's and this is what I got... pretty close match to my eye but what do I know?   I had a 44 marker test done and it came back R1b1b2a1a2d3 (L2+).  I am currently testing for L20.  Here is my comparison:

King Tut                        Pigman

56 (13-18) = 15                  
389i (9-16) = 13                  13
390 (17-28) = 24                  23
389ii (24-34) = 30                  29
458 (14-20) = 16                  16
19 (10-19) = 8/14 (dual peak)            14
385a (7-25) = 11                  11
385b (7-25) = 14 (? not clear in video)      14
393 (8-17) = 13                  13
391 (6-14) = 11                  11
439 (8-15) = 10                  13
635 (19-26) = 23
392 (6-18) = 13                  13
YGATAH4 (8-13) = 11(10 FtDNA nomenclature)12
437 (13-18) = 9/14 (dual peak)         15
438 (8-13) = 12                  12
448 (16-24) = 19                  19

I could send all of the snp's if someone wants to help me identify my dna further.
Curtis


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on March 30, 2010, 01:48:38 PM
Those numbers of your's and Tut's are "STR" numbers.  Like the leaves on a tree.

Snp's are markers that are the branches.

I don't think King Tut has been snp tested.

L2 is an snp. Also L20 is an snp.

The leaves may look alike..but are they on the same snp branch?
Maybe you share a common ancestor with Tut back at R1b1b2 ??

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

That is my understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on March 30, 2010, 07:54:45 PM
Thanks OConnor,

I guess I should have figured out the STR/SNP thing.

The following are my SNP numbers:  M 168 T+, M173 C+, M207 G+, M343 A+, M45 A+, M89 T+, M9 G+, SRY10831.1 G+ all the rest are negative.  Does these numbers help identify me with a particular group.  All I know so far is they point to Italian. 

I sure wish they would SNP test King Tut. 

Also I just got my deep subclade test back and I am R1b1b2a1a2d3(S28) (L2/L139+,L20-)

Curtis


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on April 03, 2010, 07:17:15 PM
As it turns out, I have another comment for this thread. This discusses King Tut's walking difficulties in more detail. My opinion is that Egyptologists don't have a clue.

28 March 

http://emhotep.net/2010/03/28/egypt-in-the-news/king-tut%E2%80%99s-feet-fatale-did-frail-feet-fell-the-famous-pharaoh/


King Tut’s Feet Fatale: Did Frail Feet Fell the Famous Pharaoh?


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on April 07, 2010, 10:52:56 AM
6 April 2010

Dystonic Feet

http://andgodlaughs.blogspot.com/2010/04/dystonia-and-spasticity.html


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on September 02, 2010, 07:07:07 PM
It seems some folks think R1b means Western Europe.

http://heritage-key.com/blogs/ann/king-tut-scottish-how-far-can-dna-theories-stretch


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: A.D. on September 04, 2010, 10:34:59 PM
a few thoughts
Legend has it that miles of Spain was a mercenary in Egypt an married the Pharaoh;s daughter Scotia

there is a statue in Egypt of a guy with red hair and a tartan like cloak this has been likened to Joseph and his multi coloured cloak

the chariot was bought to Egypt by the Hiksos who came from the east
these were Incorporated into the army of tutmosis along with the kopesh (sward) and some variations to the war axe

variations on the word  Danu (Dannan etc) are found thought the Mediterranean Greece ,Israel etc, 
Danu was the Hittite  warrior goddess of the moon

some ancient Greeks claimed decedents from Egyptians

the Sea-Ppeoples are (by some) thought to be the Mycenaean after the the claps of the Mycenaean other late bronze age  kingdoms

i saw a program that called into question the dates of the Pharaohs by a couple of hundred years (puts them later) pretty sure it was called Pharaohs and kings on channel 4 (4 on demand) u.k.


all this could point to movement of IE peoples in the eastern and south eastern
another thought has any one considered randy Irish--- druids? LOL


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 04, 2010, 11:22:35 PM
a few thoughts
Legend has it that miles of Spain was a mercenary in Egypt an married the Pharaoh;s daughter Scotia..
I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up.  This is in "The irish Race" book my mother gave me.  The book also notes that the term Gael is derived from some part of Egypt with a similar name.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on September 05, 2010, 11:33:10 PM
Isn't this something?

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-09/1283735687

"I dont for a sec. think the problem is a lack of reliable Y-DNA results that
match between the generations.

Thats been established. The autosomnal results are pretty transparently a
response to try to deflect criticism for the grand media rollout concerning
Tuts family DNA and the lavish media campaign to support that, with Zero
results released.

Either Hawass personally or his circle in collusion, is simply deliberately
withholding the Y (and Mt) results.

I saw a posting in a ARCE researchers blog only a day after the big
announcement that Tut was supposedly R1b, and that researcher described a
presentation he claimed to have attended with other foreign Egyptologists at
that time, during which Hawass told them that the DNA results linked Tut
Paternally, and his pharoah father, to a specific "Greek" non-egyptian
ancestor who was a court advisor to the previous pharoah, and that this DNA
line was not carried in prior pharoahs or later... and was not in fact of
egyptian origin.

All this sounds pretty implausible to truthfully 'establish' with such
certainty, but it does sound like the Hawass bunch was sounding-out possible explanations to see how they could ''sell'' the results they are alleged to have come up with, without damaging Tuts ''egyptian-ness'' to their liking.

The next day, the entire ''Tuts' Y-line was father by a greek advisor to his
grandfather'' description was scrubbed from the ARCE blog and the site
searched turned up no results to this page at all. It could be that it was
a inaccurate description of the briefing, or the briefing was 'confidential'
in nature for some reason, which caused them to remove or instruct the
archaeologist to remove the summary, but it should also be noted that Hawass has the power to totally remove all ARCE members or restrict them from working in Egypt.

so.. my guess is, they have repeatable Y- results that don't fit their
liking, and could not find a believable way to ''market'' these results that
did not conflict with what they could accept, and they have the power to
deter anyone from pursuing the matter too vigourously if they ever want to
work in egypt again.

So.. they cut loose with some autosomnal results that offer some results to
quite those they cant shut up, but don't disclose the Y-results that they
are eager to keep private. Doesnt prove the earlier R1b assertions, but sure doesnt conflict with what one would expect if a group of nationalist egyptians got caught with results they didnt like and couldnt find a good way to dispose of the matter."


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: NealtheRed on September 05, 2010, 11:46:02 PM
a few thoughts
Legend has it that miles of Spain was a mercenary in Egypt an married the Pharaoh;s daughter Scotia

there is a statue in Egypt of a guy with red hair and a tartan like cloak this has been likened to Joseph and his multi coloured cloak

the chariot was bought to Egypt by the Hiksos who came from the east
these were Incorporated into the army of tutmosis along with the kopesh (sward) and some variations to the war axe

variations on the word  Danu (Dannan etc) are found thought the Mediterranean Greece ,Israel etc,  
Danu was the Hittite  warrior goddess of the moon

some ancient Greeks claimed decedents from Egyptians

the Sea-Ppeoples are (by some) thought to be the Mycenaean after the the claps of the Mycenaean other late bronze age  kingdoms

i saw a program that called into question the dates of the Pharaohs by a couple of hundred years (puts them later) pretty sure it was called Pharaohs and kings on channel 4 (4 on demand) u.k.


all this could point to movement of IE peoples in the eastern and south eastern
another thought has any one considered randy Irish--- druids? LOL


Interesting. I believe Anatolian is a Proto-Indo-European language, also near where the Hittites lived.

I wonder if there is some connection with Irish mythology and the earlier heroic, Indo-European poetic tradition. The chariots also make me think of the Gaels/Celts. I wonder how the bards incorporated Scythia into the legend though?


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on September 06, 2010, 01:59:18 PM
"I wonder how the bards incorporated Scythia into the legend though?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi#Oracle

Oracle of Delphi

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198805/siwa-oasis.extraordinary.htm

Oracle of Siwa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia

"The scholar Martin Litchfield West writes that the Pythia shows many traits of shamanistic practices, likely inherited or influenced from Central Asian practices, although there is no evidence of any Central Asian connection at this time. He cites the Pythia sitting in a cauldron on a tripod, while making her prophecies in an ecstatic trance state, like shamans, and her unintelligible utterings.[17]"


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on September 06, 2010, 02:31:32 PM
"or even reshaped her utterances into verse"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia#Personnel

"Several other officials served the oracle in addition to the Pythia.[23] After 200 BC at any given time there were two priests of Apollo, who were in charge of the entire sanctuary; Plutarch, who served as a priest in the late first century and early second century AD, gives us the most information about the organization of the oracle at that time. Before 200 BC, while the temple was dedicated to Apollo, there was probably only one priest of Apollo. Priests were chosen from among the leading citizens of Delphi, and were appointed for life. In addition to overseeing the oracle, priests would also conduct sacrifices at other festivals of Apollo, and had charge of the Pythian games. Earlier arrangements, before the temple became dedicated to Apollo, are not documented.

The other officials associated with the oracle are less well understood. These are the hosioi ("holy ones") and the prophetai (singular prophetes). Prophetes is the origin of the English word "prophet", but a better translation of the Greek word might be "one who speaks on behalf of another person. "The prophetai are referred to in literary sources, but their function is unclear; it has been suggested that they interpreted the Pythia's prophecies, or even reshaped her utterances into verse, but it has also been argued that the term prophetes is a  reference to any cult officials at the sanctuary, including the Pythia.[24] There were five hosioi, whose responsibilities are unclear, but may have been involved in some way with the operation of the oracle."


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: A.D. on September 07, 2010, 12:44:04 PM
Looking at the Irish legends and for that matter  the Norse (the Aesir has been likened to Asia) all have a pantheon similar to the Greco/Roman. I beleive Balto /Slavonic  has too (ie they all have equivilent Gods).
I was wondering if the referances to Eiru (Iverni) 'the fertile earth' was used like the word 'home' where they lived at any place at the  in time.
Thus the changes in the number of rivers lakes etc  could indicate a change in place hence the stories could be describing a journey 
any  thoughts?                                     


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: A.D. on September 10, 2010, 09:27:20 PM
Nealthered
there is a refeance to Nuada agait lamh a tuatha De Dannan king who had a troop of Sythian body guard.
Some people link the Tuatha to bronze age settelers.
The term Scythian seem to pop up in places you would not really expect them but are normally assosiated with horses so maybe the term was used to discribe mercenary cavalry in ancient sorces. Rather like the english refer to the Germans as Huns in WW2.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: realdealt on September 25, 2010, 12:12:20 PM
Some food for thought.

Regarding a link previously posted by OConner to information about recent excavations in the ancient Syrian kingdom of Qatnas revealing connections with ancient Egypt. The burials there have been dated to between 1650 and 1550 BC which is only about 200 years before Tutankhamun's birth.
http://www.archaeologydaily.com/news/201009125037/Qatnas-Royal-Palace-reveals-further-archaeological-treasures.html

...along with some further info on Qatna....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatna

...not far from Anatolian R1b territory.


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on September 26, 2010, 04:19:58 PM
There are a lot of goups I haven't heard of.
I was just reading a bit about the Mitanni

http://www.livius.org/mi-mn/mitanni/mitanni.html


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: A.D. on September 29, 2010, 02:00:52 PM
this thread has got me thinking perhaps
there was 2 methods of the spread of IE/Proto IE
from the SW.Asia and Step area
1 the usual clan/tribe based migration east to west
across Europe mainly north of the alps to the Atlantic. the traditional idea.
2 mercenaries `gangs' generally through a SW Asia along the Mediterranean.
These were probably initially chariot specialists or had iron weapons, later cavalry.
these gangs were obviously more mobile and male dominated
I say `gangs' rather than tribes as they would likely have mixed with  soldiers other similar origins/cultures (horse based).
I don't think its hard to believe that they would have left more of a DNA trail
than an archaeological one `spoils of war' and all that.
being warriors it is probable that they didn't have any permanent large scale settlements though some may have been given lands here and there
not leaving any continuous trail. maybe a specific fought 1 season in Egypt the next got a better `price' and went back east or maybe home. This could even be to a migrating tribe(s) hence home could have moved.
There is a theory that the Hebrews were Mercenaries hired by Egypt then `put to the land'.
Interestingly they are the only people I hane herd of hing a unit of left-handed warriors,specialists.
I was wondering to wether this could explain why Germanics and Celts had gods nearly identical except in names but Germans seemed to be based more on an Asiatic shamanism and the Celts on a med.. priesthood (careful about `Druid' it's a point of controversy) more `schooled' than the lone clan shaman With ehe Atlantic being the stopping point could this have led to the cultural Celtic west to east spread Cunlieff talks about.
This is a massive generalization probably full of flaws.
Interestingly Miledh (Miles of Spain) was supposed to be a mrecanary in Egypt at the time Soloman est.about 1,000 BC.and to my Knowledge there has never been a La Tene style chariot found in Ireland. Plenty of horse and `cart' regalia.
I'm not putting this out as a fully fledged Theorey but more of a question could this explain or hint to answers to the spread of some R1... and derivatives clusters where you don't expect the and absences where you do.
I hope some of the more `learned pick up and reply 


Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: OConnor on January 24, 2011, 06:37:56 PM
Royal rumpus over King Tutankhamun's ancestry

Can we be sure which mummy was the daddy? When a state-of-the-art DNA analysis of Tutankhamun and other ancient Egyptian royals was published last year, its authors hailed it as "the final word" on the pharaoh's family tree. But others are now voicing doubts

....more
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20014-royal-rumpus-over-king-tutankhamuns-ancestry.html




Title: Re: Can you walk like an Egyptian, or rather like R1b1b2 brother King Tutankhamun?
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 25, 2011, 10:17:20 AM
Royal rumpus over King Tutankhamun's ancestry
Can we be sure which mummy was the daddy? When a state-of-the-art DNA analysis of Tutankhamun and other ancient Egyptian royals was published last year, its authors hailed it as "the final word" on the pharaoh's family tree. But others are now voicing doubts
....more
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20014-royal-rumpus-over-king-tutankhamuns-ancestry.html

This is why I don't think ancient DNA will provide conclusive answers anytime soon.  There will be arguments over who was who until there is a representative sample of ancient DNA per each culture targeted.