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Title: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 01, 2009, 11:59:58 AM
Quote
Gaul as a whole consists of three separate parts; one is inhabited by the Belgae, another by the Aquitani, and the third by the people we call Gauls, though in their own language they are called Celts. In language, customs, and laws these three peoples are quite distinct. The Celts are separated from the Aquitani by the river Garonne and from the Belgae by the Marne and the Seine. (Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, 1.1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png) (Gaul according to Caesar and the Romans)

http://www.cruise-in-france.com/map-rivers-france.php (http://www.cruise-in-france.com/map-rivers-france.php) (A nice clear map of the major rivers of France, with just one problem: it leaves out the Marne! That is taken care of in the map below.)

http://www.mapsofworld.com/france/france-river-map.html (http://www.mapsofworld.com/france/france-river-map.html)

For R-L21* in Gaul (France) see:

http://tinyurl.com/yh7qjty (http://tinyurl.com/yh7qjty)

For R-P312* in Gaul (France) see:

http://tinyurl.com/yl89pco (http://tinyurl.com/yl89pco)

For R-U152 (and subclades) in Gaul (France), see:

http://tinyurl.com/yju6gp3 (http://tinyurl.com/yju6gp3)

For R-U106 (and subclades) in Gaul (France), see (scroll down to the map and click on "All Group Members"):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults)

For R-M153 in Gaul (France), see (scroll down to the map and click on "All Group Members):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-M153_The_Basque_Marker/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-M153_The_Basque_Marker/default.aspx?section=yresults)

Unfortunately no map exists for R-SRY2627 that I could find, and that is a problem, because R-SRY2627 is fairly significant in France.

There are limitations to the subclade maps above. Not all members of the subclades named are listed on the maps because not every member of each subclade has joined its respective project. Still, the maps are fairly representative of the distribution of those subclades, at least as far as they can be, based on results of testing by genetic genealogy testing companies, especially Family Tree DNA.

That's enough for a lead-in post, I guess.

Comments?


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 01, 2009, 12:10:35 PM
Perhaps Argiedude can chime in on SRY2627+.  He has some data on it from his Ht15 analysis and his breakdown of France.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 01, 2009, 12:20:27 PM
Perhaps Argiedude can chime in on SRY2627+.  He has some data on it from his Ht15 analysis and his breakdown of France.

Did you notice for R-L21*, R-U152 (and subclades - the mapmaker did not make any distinctions), and R-U106 (and subclades) the preponderance of results in NW France?

It seems to me the North American immigration pattern is affecting results for all those clades, and NE France is under represented all the way 'round.



Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on November 01, 2009, 12:26:10 PM
“There are limitations to the subclade maps above.”

No kidding, In my opinion, Reliance on this R-U152 map is foolish.



Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 01, 2009, 12:31:59 PM
“There are limitations to the subclade maps above.”

No kidding, In my opinion, Reliance on this R-U152 map is foolish.

For France I think it is pretty good. I know you have a dispute with the mapmaker about the British Isles and especially Ireland, but I don't think he has neglected France, and that's the subject of this thread. (And let's please keep that dispute out of this thread; neither it nor this thread would be helped by airing it further here.)

My R-L21* Map, for example, leaves out the British Isles altogether, which I keep track of on a separate map, and the author of the R-U152 Map has done the same thing, so I am not using the data you dispute (unless you're disputing his continental stuff, as well).


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on November 01, 2009, 12:50:46 PM
“but I don't think he has neglected France,”


I do not trust anything done by him for accuracy. If you wish to trust the accuracy of his maps that is your right. I will no longer comment on the issue.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: secherbernard on November 01, 2009, 01:33:59 PM
I think it is interesting to compare R-L21 continental map from Rich: http://tinyurl.com/yh7qjty with continental bell becker map from Richard Harrison 's book: "L'Age du cuivre, la civilisation du vase campaniforme" (in English: "Beaker Folk: Copper Age Archaeology in Western Europe"), except for Iberia: http://tinyurl.com/ycy8dhg

Bernard


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 01, 2009, 06:27:34 PM
I think it is interesting to compare R-L21 continental map from Rich: http://tinyurl.com/yh7qjty with continental bell becker map from Richard Harrison 's book: "L'Age du cuivre, la civilisation du vase campaniforme" (in English: "Beaker Folk: Copper Age Archaeology in Western Europe"), except for Iberia: http://tinyurl.com/ycy8dhg

Bernard


That is interesting. I believe there are differences between the Bell Beaker people of Iberia and their artifacts on the one hand and the Beaker Folk of France, the Rhineland and Britain and their artifacts on the other.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: argiedude on November 01, 2009, 09:35:44 PM
“but I don't think he has neglected France,”


I do not trust anything done by him for accuracy. If you wish to trust the accuracy of his maps that is your right. I will no longer comment on the issue.


Can you just clarify one thing? Are you saying this regarding my maps?


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: GoldenHind on November 01, 2009, 10:35:22 PM
“but I don't think he has neglected France,”


I do not trust anything done by him for accuracy. If you wish to trust the accuracy of his maps that is your right. I will no longer comment on the issue.


Can you just clarify one thing? Are you saying this regarding my maps?
No, I believe he refers to the person who maintains the U152 map.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: GoldenHind on November 01, 2009, 10:44:06 PM
Quote
Gaul as a whole consists of three separate parts; one is inhabited by the Belgae, another by the Aquitani, and the third by the people we call Gauls, though in their own language they are called Celts. In language, customs, and laws these three peoples are quite distinct. The Celts are separated from the Aquitani by the river Garonne and from the Belgae by the Marne and the Seine. (Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, 1.1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png) (Gaul according to Caesar and the Romans)

http://www.cruise-in-france.com/map-rivers-france.php (http://www.cruise-in-france.com/map-rivers-france.php) (A nice clear map of the major rivers of France, with just one problem: it leaves out the Marne! That is taken care of in the map below.)

http://www.mapsofworld.com/france/france-river-map.html (http://www.mapsofworld.com/france/france-river-map.html)

For R-L21* in Gaul (France) see:

http://tinyurl.com/yh7qjty (http://tinyurl.com/yh7qjty)

For R-P312* in Gaul (France) see:

http://tinyurl.com/yl89pco (http://tinyurl.com/yl89pco)

For R-U152 (and subclades) in Gaul (France), see:

http://tinyurl.com/yju6gp3 (http://tinyurl.com/yju6gp3)

For R-U106 (and subclades) in Gaul (France), see (scroll down to the map and click on "All Group Members"):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults)

For R-M153 in Gaul (France), see (scroll down to the map and click on "All Group Members):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-M153_The_Basque_Marker/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-M153_The_Basque_Marker/default.aspx?section=yresults)

Unfortunately no map exists for R-SRY2627 that I could find, and that is a problem, because R-SRY2627 is fairly significant in France.

There are limitations to the subclade maps above. Not all members of the subclades named are listed on the maps because not every member of each subclade has joined its respective project. Still, the maps are fairly representative of the distribution of those subclades, at least as far as they can be, based on results of testing by genetic genealogy testing companies, especially Family Tree DNA.

That's enough for a lead-in post, I guess.

Comments?

I know most people on this forum are primarily interested in L21, but looking at the P312* it appears to be pretty evenly distributed between north and south, east and west. The only thing that stands out is the complete absence from Brittany, which surprises me.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on November 02, 2009, 01:10:40 AM
“Can you just clarify one thing? Are you saying this regarding my maps?”

No, argiedude I was not. Goldenhind is right my post referenced the person maintaining the above R-U152 map. He and I have a multi-year disagreement over R-U152. I hate to keep bringing this up over and over again, but people keep throwing his biased R-U152 stuff out there. Sorry, I said that I would no longer comment on that issue. I will end it there.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 02, 2009, 08:31:34 AM

I know most people on this forum are primarily interested in L21, but looking at the P312* it appears to be pretty evenly distributed between north and south, east and west. The only thing that stands out is the complete absence from Brittany, which surprises me.

It's not absent from Brittany; I know that for sure. The admin of the Bretagne Project, Ronan Dorvillers, belongs to the R1b North-South Cluster, is almost certainly R-P312*, and he is a Breton. He just hasn't done the Deep Clade-R thing yet (that I know about). I'm sure there are others. They just have not joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project yet.

There is at least one other R-P312* in the Bretagne Project: Chopin.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: GoldenHind on November 02, 2009, 04:43:34 PM

I know most people on this forum are primarily interested in L21, but looking at the P312* it appears to be pretty evenly distributed between north and south, east and west. The only thing that stands out is the complete absence from Brittany, which surprises me.

It's not absent from Brittany; I know that for sure. The admin of the Bretagne Project, Ronan Dorvillers, belongs to the R1b North-South Cluster, is almost certainly R-P312*, and he is a Breton. He just hasn't done the Deep Clade-R thing yet (that I know about). I'm sure there are others. They just have not joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project yet.

There is at least one other R-P312* in the Bretagne Project: Chopin.
Thanks. Further proof that we shouldn't rely too heavily on these sort of maps, because of the way the data that they are based on are collected.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 02, 2009, 08:56:50 PM

Thanks. Further proof that we shouldn't rely too heavily on these sort of maps, because of the way the data that they are based on are collected.

You can't rely on them totally, but mine are reliable for what info I get.

I just don't get all the info out there because 1) not everyone who should get tested actually gets tested and 2) not everyone who gets tested joins one of my projects or otherwise becomes known to me.

But they're all we've got, and if we want to speculate, we have to have something. We just have to be aware of their limitations and that there is a lot we don't know.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 02, 2009, 09:04:43 PM
Certainly at present most of the L21 falls into the Celtica part of Gaul and also into the lands beyond the Rhine but south of the Main that were Celtic but had been included into the Germania Superior province. I think its fair to also say that despite an interesting group in southern Holland in what would have been the extreme north-east of Belgica bordering the orginal path of the Rhine (the Menapii tribe?), the rest of Belgica is so far very low on L21 as is Aquitania.  I think there is some sort of clade patterning but the real lack of L21 testing in many of the low L21 areas may yet prove misleading.  .   


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 02, 2009, 09:10:37 PM
Certainly at present most of the L21 falls into the Celtica part of Gaul and also into the lands beyond the Rhine but south of the Main that were Celtic but had been included into the Germania Superior province. I think its fair to also say that despite an interesting group in southern Holland in what would have been the extreme north-east of Belgica bordering the orginal path of the Rhine (the Menapii tribe?), the rest of Belgica is so far very low on L21 as is Aquitania.  I think there is some sort of clade patterning but the real lack of L21 testing in many of the low L21 areas may yet prove misleading.  .   

I agree. What I think I see is that in what was once Gaul L21 is distributed for the most part where the tribes Caesar named as Gauls were distributed.

Thus far it is present to a lesser extent in what was Belgica and is completely absent from old Aquitania (south of the Garonne in Gaul).


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: jerome72 on November 06, 2009, 11:16:00 AM
Hi!
I have grouped all these maps into one (only for France):
http://tinyurl.com/yaxbknj


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 06, 2009, 11:47:24 AM
Hi!
I have grouped all these maps into one (only for France):
http://tinyurl.com/yaxbknj

Thank you for that combined map.  It sort of warns against seeing any sharp geographical divisions.  The clades seem very much mixed up with no clear patterns. 


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: GoldenHind on November 06, 2009, 04:10:10 PM
Hi!
I have grouped all these maps into one (only for France):
http://tinyurl.com/yaxbknj

Thank you for that combined map.  It sort of warns against seeing any sharp geographical divisions.  The clades seem very much mixed up with no clear patterns. 
Agreed, an excellent map. I think this manner of displaying an overlay of the different subclades on one map is by far the best way to make comparisons. I would note two observations: a concentration of L21 to the northwest and the absence of U106 to the southeast. But as discussed above, the manner in which the data for the maps are selected should caution us against jumping to conclusions.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 06, 2009, 04:12:45 PM
There is a new R-L21* to add to the map in northeastern France: Doucet, YSearch KZYXF. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Sedan in the Ardennes, near the Belgian border and not too far from our man in Luxembourg, Conrardy.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: jerome72 on November 07, 2009, 01:35:39 AM
There is a new R-L21* to add to the map in northeastern France: Doucet, YSearch KZYXF. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Sedan in the Ardennes, near the Belgian border and not too far from our man in Luxembourg, Conrardy.

I've uploaded!

Caesar also mentions the Armorican confederation which include the following people, located between the Loire and the Seine and that seems to be rich in L21: Coriosolites the Redones the Ambibares the Caletes the Osismii the Lemovices (or Lexovi?), The Veneti, the Unelli.
These different tribes, Do they have a common origin?


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 07, 2009, 04:37:14 AM
Hi!
I have grouped all these maps into one (only for France):
http://tinyurl.com/yaxbknj

One thing the map makes clear is that there are areas where no dots appear at all, including a large area of the south-centre and another area in the north-centre.  Seems to be mainly the inland areas.   It alway strikers me on a Europe wide basis that the deep inland areas tend to be sampling gaps and that seems to be true of France.  I strongly suspect that there is not a genuine gap in R1b1b2 areas and this surely relates to some biase due to the history of immigration to North America by boat and access to ports.  Probably the most striking western European example of this lack of testing in landlocked areas is Austria but the neighbouring area of SE Germany also looks undersampled. 


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 07, 2009, 09:37:55 AM
That is true. Another thing I think cannot be over emphasized is the fact that those other clades have enjoyed a three-to-four-year head start on L21, and that in good economic times.

Really, our progress in France has been truly remarkable and surely can only mean that L21 must be very common there.

My own opinion is that it is common throughout France (with the possible exception of the South), not just in the Northwest.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: secherbernard on November 07, 2009, 01:37:18 PM
One thing the map makes clear is that there are areas where no dots appear at all, including a large area of the south-centre and another area in the north-centre.  Seems to be mainly the inland areas.   It alway strikers me on a Europe wide basis that the deep inland areas tend to be sampling gaps and that seems to be true of France.  I strongly suspect that there is not a genuine gap in R1b1b2 areas and this surely relates to some biase due to the history of immigration to North America by boat and access to ports.  Probably the most striking western European example of this lack of testing in landlocked areas is Austria but the neighbouring area of SE Germany also looks undersampled. 
South-centre is the    the least populated region of France. I suppose this is the reason there are no dots here.

Bernard


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 07, 2009, 03:04:35 PM
There is a new R-L21* to add to the map in northeastern France: Doucet, YSearch KZYXF. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Sedan in the Ardennes, near the Belgian border and not too far from our man in Luxembourg, Conrardy.

I've uploaded!

Caesar also mentions the Armorican confederation which include the following people, located between the Loire and the Seine and that seems to be rich in L21: Coriosolites the Redones the Ambibares the Caletes the Osismii the Lemovices (or Lexovi?), The Veneti, the Unelli.
These different tribes, Do they have a common origin?



Could be. Thanks for pointing out the fact that there were many Celtic tribes in Armorica long before Britons starting going there from Britannia in the 4th and 5th centuries.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 08, 2009, 08:23:26 AM
For what its worth (maybe not much) some of the old head measuring/eye colour noting  type physical anthropologists concluded that the British genetic imput in Brittany was limited and largely confined to pockets around the coast.  It is not uncommon for there to be language and identity change imposed by an incoming minority.  One example is Hungary.  I think the national identityy and language is derived from the Magyars settlers but likely Magyar genes are (I understand - I am no expert) very much in the minority.  


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 08, 2009, 11:20:57 AM
For what its worth (maybe not much) some of the old head measuring/eye colour noting  type physical anthropologists concluded that the British genetic imput in Brittany was limited and largely confined to pockets around the coast.  It is not uncommon for there to be language and identity change imposed by an incoming minority.  One example is Hungary.  I think the national identityy and language is derived from the Magyars settlers but likely Magyar genes are (I understand - I am no expert) very much in the minority.  

I think those kinds of anthropometric things have value, as long as they aren't taken too far. As you know, there was contact between Armorica and Britain long long before the Romans came and long before the movement of Britons to Armorica at the close of the Roman period.

If Bretagne is an L21 hotspot - and I think it probably is - it doesn't seem likely that all of it can be attributed to the British exodus.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: IALEM on November 08, 2009, 01:50:27 PM
I would like to point that, while Caesar put the limits of Aquitania at the Garonne, the roman province of Aquitania and the merovingian kingdom by the same name had their borders extended up to the Loire. There is a transition area between the Garonne and the Loire between Celtic Gallia and Aquitanian.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 08, 2009, 07:17:27 PM
I would like to point that, while Caesar put the limits of Aquitania at the Garonne, the roman province of Aquitania and the merovingian kingdom by the same name had their borders extended up to the Loire. There is a transition area between the Garonne and the Loire between Celtic Gallia and Aquitanian.

I'm sure the same is probably true of the zone approaching the frontier between Caesar's Gallia Celtica and Gallia Belgica, too.

But he did put the Aquitanians south of the Garonne and the Gauls north of it, even though today's French region of Aquitaine also extends north of the Garonne.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 08, 2009, 07:52:38 PM
Its well established that the Aquitani spoke an early form of Basque.  So they were mainly non-Celts although I believe there were stray Celtic tribes mixed in.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 08, 2009, 11:03:52 PM
.... Thanks for pointing out the fact that there were many Celtic tribes in Armorica long before Britons starting going there from Britannia in the 4th and 5th centuries.
The 2009 paper, "The genetic position of Western Brittany (Finistère, France) in the Celtic Y chromosome landscape" reports
Quote from: KRouault
The molecular analysis revealed that 82.2% of the Y chromosomes fell into haplogroup R1b, placing Finistère within the Western European landscape
I've looked but I've never actually seen this full paper.  If they have set of haplotypes available, I could compare with our R-L21* data.  At the least, if Robert Hughes is right, and 17-14-10 (Wales Modal 1) people are ancient Britons, you'd think there should be something like them in Brittany.

Has anyone seen this full paper or any associated data?


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 09, 2009, 10:42:43 AM
If there any other area with such a  mix of all the S116 clades as France and SW Germany?  It seems to me somehow that that is the core for diversity of forms compared to places like Ireland (L21) and Iberia (S116*) which you could argue show very much reduced levels of diversity of R1b1b2 forms. It perhaps could be argued they have only recieved a fraction of the R1b1b2 'experience' suggesting that both had (opposite) peripheral geographic positions relative to the S116 core.  As far as I can see, places like France, England and SW Germany have a more highly diverse mix of S116 and R1b1b2 forms in general, suggesting that they were nearer or part of the S116 and wider R1b1b2 core.  That is not very precise or mind blowing but to me points towards the France-SW Germany area as a possibly site of the take off of R1b1b2 or certainly S116.  That all of course remains a shot in the dark with the database for Europe east of Germany so poor.       


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: jerome72 on November 09, 2009, 11:33:19 AM
I would like to point that, while Caesar put the limits of Aquitania at the Garonne, the roman province of Aquitania and the merovingian kingdom by the same name had their borders extended up to the Loire. There is a transition area between the Garonne and the Loire between Celtic Gallia and Aquitanian.

I'm sure the same is probably true of the zone approaching the frontier between Caesar's Gallia Celtica and Gallia Belgica, too.

But he did put the Aquitanians south of the Garonne and the Gauls north of it, even though today's French region of Aquitaine also extends north of the Garonne.

I think the Aquitaine region in the historical sense, is an area between the Garonne and the Pyrenees.
The current "regions" of France have been created during the twentieth century, with the main concern to establish areas of relatively similar size. The historic boundaries were rarely observed (as Britanny for example).

It happened the same thing when the Romans, after conquering Gaul, divisaire Gaul of  three regions of similar size.
Aquitaine stretches so far as the Loire, but has no historical truth.

I think it is better to watch the ancient provinces of France and ancient duchies.
http://www.francegenweb.org/~communes/provinces.php
 
Gascony (Gascogne in French), whose etymology of the same origin as the word "Basque" is probably the area inhabited originally by the Basques.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascony

I regret to not speaking English better than that!


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 09, 2009, 12:30:29 PM

I think the Aquitaine region in the historical sense, is an area between the Garonne and the Pyrenees.
The current "regions" of France have been created during the twentieth century, with the main concern to establish areas of relatively similar size. The historic boundaries were rarely observed (as Britanny for example).

It happened the same thing when the Romans, after conquering Gaul, divisaire Gaul of  three regions of similar size.
Aquitaine stretches so far as the Loire, but has no historical truth.

I think it is better to watch the ancient provinces of France and ancient duchies.
http://www.francegenweb.org/~communes/provinces.php
 
Gascony (Gascogne in French), whose etymology of the same origin as the word "Basque" is probably the area inhabited originally by the Basques.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascony

I regret to not speaking English better than that!


Your English is fine. That was an excellent post.

I added that map of France's ancient provinces to my Favorites.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: IALEM on November 09, 2009, 01:02:36 PM
I would like to point that, while Caesar put the limits of Aquitania at the Garonne, the roman province of Aquitania and the merovingian kingdom by the same name had their borders extended up to the Loire. There is a transition area between the Garonne and the Loire between Celtic Gallia and Aquitanian.

I'm sure the same is probably true of the zone approaching the frontier between Caesar's Gallia Celtica and Gallia Belgica, too.

But he did put the Aquitanians south of the Garonne and the Gauls north of it, even though today's French region of Aquitaine also extends north of the Garonne.

I think the Aquitaine region in the historical sense, is an area between the Garonne and the Pyrenees.
The current "regions" of France have been created during the twentieth century, with the main concern to establish areas of relatively similar size. The historic boundaries were rarely observed (as Britanny for example).

It happened the same thing when the Romans, after conquering Gaul, divisaire Gaul of  three regions of similar size.
Aquitaine stretches so far as the Loire, but has no historical truth.

I think it is better to watch the ancient provinces of France and ancient duchies.
http://www.francegenweb.org/~communes/provinces.php
 
Gascony (Gascogne in French), whose etymology of the same origin as the word "Basque" is probably the area inhabited originally by the Basques.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascony

I regret to not speaking English better than that!
I agree that the core territory of ancient Aquitanian people should be limited by the Garonne, however it is worth to note that in late Merovingian times that region was indeed the duchy of Vasconia, while the region between the Garonne and the Loire become the duchy of Aquitaine, so a degree of Aquitanian real influence can´t be discarded. Remember that the word Guyenne comes from Guiana, a corruption for Aquitania.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: secherbernard on November 09, 2009, 04:53:51 PM
I would like to point that, while Caesar put the limits of Aquitania at the Garonne, the roman province of Aquitania and the merovingian kingdom by the same name had their borders extended up to the Loire. There is a transition area between the Garonne and the Loire between Celtic Gallia and Aquitanian.

I'm sure the same is probably true of the zone approaching the frontier between Caesar's Gallia Celtica and Gallia Belgica, too.

But he did put the Aquitanians south of the Garonne and the Gauls north of it, even though today's French region of Aquitaine also extends north of the Garonne.

I think the Aquitaine region in the historical sense, is an area between the Garonne and the Pyrenees.
The current "regions" of France have been created during the twentieth century, with the main concern to establish areas of relatively similar size. The historic boundaries were rarely observed (as Britanny for example).

It happened the same thing when the Romans, after conquering Gaul, divisaire Gaul of  three regions of similar size.
Aquitaine stretches so far as the Loire, but has no historical truth.

I think it is better to watch the ancient provinces of France and ancient duchies.
http://www.francegenweb.org/~communes/provinces.php
 
Gascony (Gascogne in French), whose etymology of the same origin as the word "Basque" is probably the area inhabited originally by the Basques.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascony

I regret to not speaking English better than that!
An other interesting map of France near year 1.000: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Map_France_1030-fr.svg

Bernard


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: IALEM on November 09, 2009, 05:24:55 PM


An other interesting map of France near year 1.000: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Map_France_1030-bis-fr.svg.png

Bernard
Interesting to note that the traditional capital of the older duchy of Aquitania was Toulouse, an independent county in this period. Borders were very fluid in  ancient times, before the advent of modern states.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: secherbernard on November 10, 2009, 05:32:48 AM
I got some problem with my previous link, so i give an other one for map of France near year 1.000: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Map_France_1030-fr.svg
I hope it will be better with this one.

Bernard


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: secherbernard on November 10, 2009, 07:40:08 AM
I got some problem with my previous link, so i give an other one for map of France near year 1.000: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Map_France_1030-fr.svg
I hope it will be better with this one.

Bernard
An other interesting map of France (in fact not only France) near year 800: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-fr.svg

Bernard


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: secherbernard on November 10, 2009, 10:21:58 AM
The current "regions" of France have been created during the twentieth century, with the main concern to establish areas of relatively similar size. The historic boundaries were rarely observed (as Britanny for example).
Jérôme,

It is very difficult to speak about historic boundaries, because you have to specify "when". In fact historic boundaries change very much during history. As said IALEM: "Borders were very fluid in  ancient times".

For example, if you take Brittany, the southern part: "Comté de Nantes" and "Pays de Retz" belong to Brittany only since year 851 after Viking raids on the Loire river. Before 851, Pays de Retz belonged to "Comté du Poitou", and "Comté de Nantes" belonged to "Marches de Bretagne" outside Brittany.

As you told in a previous post, Brittany was occupied before Roman times by the Redones the Ambibares the Caletes the Osismii the Lemovices (or Lexovi?), The Veneti, the Unelli. But I don't think these people were from different origin than other Celtic people of Gaul like Andecaves or Parisii. And I think all these peoples spoke a similar language: the Gaulish which were very different from the modern "Breton" language.

Relative to L21, I think there is no specificty of Brittany in France. I think L21 came in western France during Bell Beaker times (2.500 or 2.000 BC) from Rhine valley, in the same time than L21 came in Brittish Isles from the same Rhine valley.

Bernard


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: jerome72 on November 10, 2009, 03:10:46 PM
Jérôme,

It is very difficult to speak about historic boundaries, because you have to specify "when". In fact historic boundaries change very much during history. As said IALEM: "Borders were very fluid in  ancient times".

For example, if you take Brittany, the southern part: "Comté de Nantes" and "Pays de Retz" belong to Brittany only since year 851 after Viking raids on the Loire river. Before 851, Pays de Retz belonged to "Comté du Poitou", and "Comté de Nantes" belonged to "Marches de Bretagne" outside Brittany.

I agree! But I just wanted to point out that the presents regions are often inventions of the twentieth century, such as "the Pays de la Loire" or "le Centre".
And that Aquitaine today is not the Aquitaine historic

The French provinces were abolished at the French revolution.

As you told in a previous post, Brittany was occupied before Roman times by the Redones the Ambibares the Caletes the Osismii the Lemovices (or Lexovi?), The Veneti, the Unelli. But I don't think these people were from different origin than other Celtic people of Gaul like Andecaves or Parisii. And I think all these peoples spoke a similar language: the Gaulish which were very different from the modern "Breton" language.

Relative to L21, I think there is no specificty of Brittany in France. I think L21 came in western France during Bell Beaker times (2.500 or 2.000 BC) from Rhine valley, in the same time than L21 came in Brittish Isles from the same Rhine valley.

Bernard
Well The Ambibare, the Caletes, the Unelli are in the Normandy..
The Armoric is mentioned in ancient texts.
Caesar said that these people were called themselves the Armorican and enumerate them.


They traded with the British Islands and had, before the roman invasion, almost the monopoly of this trade with the islands.
We found for example coins Coriosolites in southern England


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: jerome72 on November 10, 2009, 03:32:03 PM
And I did not rule out the hypothesis that island Britaniques population have migrated into  north-west of France a few centuries before Christ.
This is perhaps not my first assumption but I think it is possible.


Title: Re: Y-DNA and Caesar's Threefold Division of Ancient Gaul
Post by: rms2 on November 10, 2009, 08:30:58 PM
And I did not rule out the hypothesis that island Britaniques population have migrated into  north-west of France a few centuries before Christ.
This is perhaps not my first assumption but I think it is possible.


I don't think there is any evidence of that.