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Title: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 08, 2009, 11:21:28 AM
A member of the Leinster cluster just received his WTY results with a new (well, sort of) SNP being discovered: L159.

L159 is also present in I-M26 males, so that makes it extra interesting.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on September 08, 2009, 12:10:54 PM
A member of the Leinster cluster just received his WTY results with a new (well, sort of) SNP being discovered: L159.

L159 is also present in I-M26 males, so that makes it extra interesting.

And consequently is already available in advanced orders.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 08, 2009, 12:21:43 PM
That's correct.

Initial testing for L159 is being done by some members of the Leinster cluster. They're the closest to the participant's haplotype, so it should be interesting if they are to test positive for it.

Why would there be a parallel mutation in R-L21 and I-M26?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on September 08, 2009, 03:36:11 PM
Yes it is curious, L69 is also very close, could this area be more prone to mutations?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 08, 2009, 04:00:00 PM
Thomas Krahn suggests the mutation is stable enough that it may further change the Y-chromosomal tree, adding yet another layer.

Another member from the I2a clade also mentioned the stability of L159 within that haplogroup.

I guess we'll see as results come back, but it should be informative.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on September 08, 2009, 04:07:50 PM
Do you know what he means by this, is it possible to determine the likelihood of an SNP being non-private by analysing the DNA of  one person, I assumed that private SNPs were just more recent, and therefore only found in one or a couple of families.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 08, 2009, 04:17:42 PM
Here is what Thomas Krahn wrote to Kirsten Saxe, one of the co-admins. for the Leinster group:

"Dear Kirsten,

L69 and L159 are "at the edge" between SNPs and STRs because they are right at a transition between a poly G stretch and a GT dinucleotide repeat. So we may expect a somewhat slower mutation frequency than a STR but a higher mutation frequency than a SNP.


This is what I wrote to Ken Nordtvedt when L159 was first discovered in haplogroup I:

L159 isn't only close to a STR but it is even part of the same dinucleotide STR as L69, just 2 bp downstream.  It is just an extension of the  Poly C region in the other direction. If you compare the DNA sequences  next to each other you will see what I mean:

AAACTGGGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (I-M26)[WTY participant and other I-M26 men]
AAACTGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (HUGO and most others)
AAACTGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (I-M423, GRC014676 G-L13, GRC000617 G-P18)
L69......^
L159.......^
(note that the GT repeat count may vary and is disregarded for the L96/L159 status)

From our experience with L69 I'd consider this as rather unstable for anthropological dimensions. However for the fine resolution within a haplogroup this may be of some limited value.

[Your participant] has exactly the same configuration as [the I-M26 participant]. So in deed I'd start looking into close relatives for ordering L159.2. Start with very close haplotypes and slowly expand to more distant matches as long as you get L159.2+ results. Other R-P312, R-L21, R-M222 WTY participants are L159.2 ancestral so far.
 
Thomas"


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 08, 2009, 05:15:55 PM
.  


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 18, 2009, 07:50:34 PM
A second member of the Leinster group just tested positive for L159. And here's the best part: he has a different surname.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on September 18, 2009, 08:09:56 PM
Ah Ha


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 18, 2009, 09:00:10 PM
I guess there may be some credence to this. I will order the test over the weekend.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on September 18, 2009, 09:08:14 PM
A second member of the Leinster group just tested positive for L159. And here's the best part: he has a different surname.

Interesting!

Hmmm . . .


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 18, 2009, 09:12:02 PM
Yeah, I know!

The first to test positive is a Carmack whos deep ancestry is from eastern Ireland. The second positive for L159 is a Quilliam (FitzWilliam) with roots in the Isle of Man.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: vtilroe on September 19, 2009, 02:09:55 AM
A second member of the Leinster group just tested positive for L159. And here's the best part: he has a different surname.
Wow!  That's fantastic!


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on September 19, 2009, 09:34:08 AM
Any guesses as to how old and widespread the Leinster Modal is.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on September 19, 2009, 01:39:32 PM
I'm wondering if I should order it.

I'm not a Leinster Lagin guy, but I do tend to lean after a few lagers. ;-)


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 19, 2009, 08:38:15 PM
Is there any hint of how far downstream it is from L21?  If its an Irish or isles specific much more recent SNP like M222 then it may do no more than provide an SNP for a local cluster - good news for people interested in the genealogical angle but not much use in terms of pre-isles origin. 



Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 19, 2009, 08:40:06 PM
how come nothing about this has been posted on rootsweb?  Seems a little odd and some of the pasted stuff about the marker seems to thow a little doubt about this SNP.  Is there any more info on this?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 19, 2009, 09:43:01 PM
The reason why it's not on any other forum is because I'm the only one who has posted the results on another web site other than the Leinster cluster site. I originally got word from the group administrator.

We actually have a couple of people who match the modal who are from northern France and Baden-Wurttemburg(Hoffenheim). I think it is especially interesting that L159.2 is present in I2a males as well.


Neal


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on September 19, 2009, 11:29:41 PM
France matches the path Ken stated in July of this year.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2009-07/1248039120


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on September 20, 2009, 01:47:06 AM
For $29.00 I can't stand the suspense.  Be the first on your block ..................


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 20, 2009, 10:44:07 AM
It wouldn't hurt, especially since the second guy to test positive for L159.2 was not one of the closest matches to the WTY participant.

Nevertheless, we do have some Byrnes, Beattys and others testing for it already. I'm sure once more people test positive for L159.2 the sampling population will grow.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 21, 2009, 12:39:09 PM
Yeah, I know!

The first to test positive is a Carmack whos deep ancestry is from eastern Ireland. The second positive for L159 is a Quilliam (FitzWilliam) with roots in the Isle of Man.
Do I have the right guys?
PAMN9 Carmack
A7STZ FitzWilliam/Quilliam

If I have the right guys, Carmack's MDKA is from Craven Cty, NC USA.  What is the Carmack Eastern Ireland tie?  What city/county?  is it fairly certain?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 21, 2009, 02:51:19 PM
The Carmack/Leinster connection is evident in his distance from the Leinster modal. He matches the known Leinster surnames: O'Byrne, Kavanaugh and Kinsella. I believe Carmack is also a derivative of the Irish McCormick, so in those regards it's pretty certain what area we're looking at.

Then you have FitzWilliam whose ancestry is from the Isle of Man. The cluster tends to aggregate around the areas of southern Scotland (Beattys), northern England and the known Leinster clans, although we have some continental matches in France and Germany.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 21, 2009, 03:06:02 PM
The Carmack/Leinster connection is evident in his distance from the Leinster modal. He matches the known Leinster surnames: O'Byrne, Kavanaugh and Kinsella. I believe Carmack is also a derivative of the Irish McCormick, so in those regards it's pretty certain what area we're looking at.

Then you have FitzWilliam whose ancestry is from the Isle of Man. The cluster tends to aggregate around the areas of southern Scotland (Beattys), northern England and the known Leinster clans, although we have some continental matches in France and Germany.
Okay.  Carmack's documentation doesn't get him back to the Old World but his haplotype fits with the one that is named the Leinster Modal.

As far as haplotypes go...

These two L159+ plus guys are not off-modal on much in the way of slower mutating STR markers.  Of the slowest 30 of FTDNA's 67, one of the only two that either is off-WAMH is that PAMN9 Carmack is 531=12.  However A7STZ FitzWilliam/Quilliam is WAMH, which is 11.  The other location, DYS393, has FitzWilliam at 25 while Carmack is WAMH, which is 24.

Well, that just means that 531 and 393 are NOT (edit) that useful at predicting L159+.

Here are markers where these two match on, in order of slowest to fastest.
448=18, 389i=14, 557=17, 442=11, 446=14, 607=14, 570=18, 449=30
If you have much in common with these, then you should run and order the L159 test, IMHO.

It is interesting, at least according to my notes (which are just my notes - they could be wrong), is that Carmack is 464x=2c2g which is rare and fits a lot of people in the Leinister sub-group of Beatty/Byrnes/McLaughlin, et al folks.   However FitzWilliam is the more common 3c1g.   So if L159+ occurrs in both 2c2g and 3c1g L21+ folks, then it must have happened first... or FitzWilliam "back-mutated" at 464x?  Is that possible?

BTW, the FitzWilliam is a Norman surname, right?




Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on September 21, 2009, 03:14:04 PM

. . .

BTW, the FitzWilliam is a Norman surname, right?

It should be, either that or Breton, since the Bretons also used those "Fitz" surnames.

For example, the famous royal Stuarts are supposed to have originated in Dol-de-Bretagne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dol-de-Bretagne) and had the surname FitzAlan.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 21, 2009, 07:07:58 PM
There are plenty of Norman names in the cluster: D'Arcy, Redmond, and Dillon to name a few. We also have a Gaston, which is a French name.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 23, 2009, 11:04:04 PM
I placed an order for L159 yesterday, and results are scheduled for early November. I doubt it will take that long since the second L159+ result arrived in two weeks.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on September 23, 2009, 11:13:57 PM
Mine is on order L159(L159)  due 11/09/2009  Batch 327 


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 24, 2009, 06:07:29 AM
There are plenty of Norman names in the cluster: D'Arcy, Redmond, and Dillon to name a few. We also have a Gaston, which is a French name.

I am not a big fan of using Irish legends as a source for prehistoric settlement infomation, but I do wonder if the Laigin cluster could be an exception.  Between the interesting mix of Irish, British and French names, I have always wondered if this cluster reflects some sort of small movement down the Irish Sea from NW France, perhaps in the Iron Age.  The distribution and names seems to suggest it predates surnames and was therefore likely prehistoric in date.  The Laigin legends mention the Fir Domnainn as part of their ancestry which is thought to be the same linguistically as that of the Dumnoni tribe of SW England and the Damnoni tribe of SW Scotland and some also think this may also be linked to Brittany.  If I recall correctly,  the tribal name means 'people of the deep' or 'people of the goddess of the deep' which to me sounds a bit like a maritime people.  Perhaps small groups of the same tribe controlled nodal points along a trade route from northern France along and along the Irish Sea.  

While I think by sheer fact of geography most prehistoric Irish settlers came via Britain, I think NW France (Brittany and Normandy) is by far the most likely source of any settlement that was direct from the continent, being by far the closest part of the latter to Ireland. The Laigin legends are full of hints of a Gaulish and or British origin.  This could explain why both Gaelic and Norman surnames in Ireland fall into this cluster.  In this scenario, the Normans included people of essentially the same north French stock as the ancestors of the Lagain and of course both Ireland and Northern France are real L21 hotspots in general so it is hard to distinguish between prehistoric and historic period settlement involving a northern French element.  

The strange parallel between the Laign origin story involving inviting a king from Gaul and the historic story of Dermot McMurrough inviting the Normans has been observed before by historians many times.  However, its possible that not only was history repeating itself but there may have been movement of very similar genes involved.  Hence it might be really difficult sorting out Irish (perhaps especially Laigin) and Norman y-lines.  In general, it does look like on the y-line anyway that northern France is the most gentically similar part of the continent to Ireland.  Indeed, northern France looks like it may be an extremely strong L21 hotspot so that any movements heading from there to Ireland in either prehistoric or historic times would have brought plenty of L21 and it would be hard to distinguise different waves of settlement involving northern French lines.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 24, 2009, 08:24:22 AM
That's what I thought about our Norman matches. We are always discussing the abundance of L21 in northern France, and it makes sense that the journey into Ireland is from the French coast of Normandy/Brittany.



Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 24, 2009, 01:43:28 PM
...
While I think by sheer fact of geography most prehistoric Irish settlers came via Britain, I think NW France (Brittany and Normandy) is by far the most likely source of any settlement that was direct from the continent, being by far the closest part of the latter to Ireland. The Laigin legends are full of hints of a Gaulish and or British origin.  This could explain why both Gaelic and Norman surnames in Ireland fall into this cluster.  In this scenario, the Normans included people of essentially the same north French stock as the ancestors of the Lagain and of course both Ireland and Northern France are real L21 hotspots in general so it is hard to distinguish between prehistoric and historic period settlement involving a northern French element.  

The strange parallel between the Laign origin story involving inviting a king from Gaul and the historic story of Dermot McMurrough inviting the Normans has been observed before by historians many times.  However, its possible that not only was history repeating itself but there may have been movement of very similar genes involved.  Hence it might be really difficult sorting out Irish (perhaps especially Laigin) and Norman y-lines.  In general, it does look like on the y-line anyway that northern France is the most gentically similar part of the continent to Ireland.  Indeed, northern France looks like it may be an extremely strong L21 hotspot so that any movements heading from there to Ireland in either prehistoric or historic times would have brought plenty of L21 and it would be hard to distinguise different waves of settlement involving northern French lines.
I agree entirely.  I've been looking at my own matches (none that close) after reading as much as I could about the Celts, some Irish legend stuff I come to the same conclusion....   It is difficult to sort out the waves, of which there must have been several, maybe many.

Here is one example:  More than one Norman invader into England may have been a descendant of a Breton who actually came from England during the Anglo-Saxon Invasions, where his ancestor was a Briton.   Of course, the Briton may have been a descendant of a Gaul who was from NW or Northern France.   A kind of "recycling."


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 24, 2009, 02:28:07 PM


[/quote]
I agree entirely.  I've been looking at my own matches (none that close) after reading as much as I could about the Celts, some Irish legend stuff I come to the same conclusion....   It is difficult to sort out the waves, of which there must have been several, maybe many.

Here is one example:  More than one Norman invader into England may have been a descendant of a Breton who actually came from England during the Anglo-Saxon Invasions, where his ancestor was a Briton.   Of course, the Briton may have been a descendant of a Gaul who was from NW or Northern France.   A kind of "recycling."

[/quote]

Of course many Normans were really Franks and in turn many of these Franks may really have been of Gallo-Roman descent.  I dont think many believe that either the Vikings or the Franks budged the bulk of the local Gallo-Roman populations and I think it is generally assumed most of the French are of Galli-Roman origins. Hence the romance language and lack of widespread Germanic placenames in most of France. 


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 24, 2009, 02:56:25 PM
Who do we know that is R-L21* that does NOT have L159+.  They would be "ancestral" or L159-. I wonder what those Ysearch IDs are so we can compare.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 24, 2009, 03:35:52 PM
Earlier in this thread a letter from Dr Krahn was quoted and that stated:

'Other R-P312, R-L21, R-M222 WTY participants are L159.2 ancestral so far'.  


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 24, 2009, 04:06:00 PM
Right, those other WTY testees are negative for L159.2. Your guess is better than mine as to whom they are.

Now, if L159.2 does eventually catch on, I'd like to sample some Frenchmen, especially since we have continentals in the cluster.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 24, 2009, 06:18:02 PM
Right, those other WTY testees are negative for L159.2. Your guess is better than mine as to whom they are. ....
I don't know if I can get a detailed list of R-L21* WTY participants, but I can probably ascertain who is L159.2-.   I hate to assume they are all negative, but will probably have to if they don't speak up.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on September 25, 2009, 12:50:59 AM
Bernard Sicher is a Frenchman in L21 WTY; he should have completed WTY testing by now.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: secherbernard on September 25, 2009, 03:18:13 AM
Bernard Sicher is a Frenchman in L21 WTY; he should have completed WTY testing by now.
I have no WTY results yet

Bernard


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on September 25, 2009, 08:41:05 AM
As yet results have come in for three L21's and one M222, but I don't think this includes Thomas Krahn's, so that would mean four L21's, one of which is positive for L159


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 25, 2009, 11:29:24 AM
I know we have at least seven testing for L159.2 currently, and should be receiving results soon.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on September 29, 2009, 11:07:28 AM
I am L159-


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on September 29, 2009, 12:50:45 PM
I am L159-

You're not the only one. A bunch of guys got L159 results today and, thus far, all are negative.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 29, 2009, 01:50:58 PM
Do you know who tested negative? I know the Leinsiter cluster had a few testing as well.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 29, 2009, 01:52:33 PM
LOL how ironic, one of those is me! I am L159.2-!


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on September 29, 2009, 02:55:25 PM
I am also L159-; a positive result would have been very unexpected.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 29, 2009, 02:58:54 PM
I understand, but in my case, given my distance from the Leinster cluster member who tested L159.2+ I thought I would surely test positive.

I'm kind of shocked, to be honest. FitzWilliam had more genetic distance between him and the WTY participant but they are both L159.2+.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 29, 2009, 03:30:23 PM
I understand, but in my case, given my distance from the Leinster cluster member who tested L159.2+ I thought I would surely test positive.

I'm kind of shocked, to be honest. FitzWilliam had more genetic distance between him and the WTY participant but they are both L159.2+.
That's why I don't like just comparing genetic distances. 


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 29, 2009, 03:45:36 PM
Man, what a crock. I know that comparing STRs doesn't do much when comparing 12-marker or 25-marker matches, but I was sure to be positive for this SNP.

Apparently, it was not meant to be.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 29, 2009, 04:26:24 PM
Man, what a crock. I know that comparing STRs doesn't do much when comparing 12-marker or 25-marker matches, but I was sure to be positive for this SNP.

Apparently, it was not meant to be.
Keep in mind also, that this SNP, 159.2 appears in another major haplogroup.  I am not sure that this should be classified as a stable "once in an eternity" type event.  I know, nothing really is that stable anyway but this does seem to be less stable than our big clade flagging SNP's.   From what you know is there an STR marker that the two 159.2+ guys have in common that you don't?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on September 29, 2009, 04:27:22 PM
I am just outside of all these clusters.. Closest TMCRA I have ever found was around 810 years, but I keep trying to get tied to one or another...lol ( at least I am keeping the testing companies alive in this recession)


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 29, 2009, 05:32:43 PM
lol ( at least I am keeping the testing companies alive in this recession)

Hahaha

We're bound to find something, sometime!


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on September 29, 2009, 07:18:47 PM
Do you know who tested negative? I know the Leinsiter cluster had a few testing as well.

Some members of the Beatty/Beattie family, Gaston, and a few others.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on September 29, 2009, 07:24:57 PM
Hahaha

We're bound to find something, sometime!

I'm still thrilled to be L21+. I thought 2008 was a pretty good SNP year: first P312 was discovered in March and then L21 in October.

I know everyone wants further refinements and SNPs that pinpoint geographic origin down to ggggggg-grandpa's outhouse, but I wish we were spending some of that money on finding out about the bird in the hand (L21).

Much of the European Continent is still terra incognita.

I can't blame the R-P312* guys for putting a lot of bucks into the WTY, though. They haven't gotten as far along as we have.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on September 29, 2009, 07:32:08 PM
So both L159+ results were members of the Leinster Haplotype as far as L21+ is concerned, is that correct?  This test only took two weeks; it seems worthwhile to continue testing further.  The implications of this SNP seem very curious.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on September 29, 2009, 09:15:27 PM
Yeah, it's still REALLY odd that two people with different surnames tested positive for L159 in a few weeks from each other. There's gotta be something to this, and more Leinster members will test. As for the Beatties, my closest STR-wise, they are still with me - in L21 purgatory LOL!


Rich, I totally agree. When I put it that way, it sounded as I was overlooking the recent advances we've made! I think I'm getting spoiled with this stuff.




Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on September 29, 2009, 11:38:06 PM
"I know everyone wants further refinements and SNPs that pinpoint geographic origin down to ggggggg-grandpa's outhouse, but I wish we were spending some of that money on finding out about the bird in the hand (L21).

Much of the European Continent is still terra incognita."


My two cents, I don't think any of this will be settled until full genome testing goes under $1,000 closer to $500.

Last I remember it was around $50,000, but the technology is improving steadily.

This piece meal, SNP by SNP by SNP testing  may be somewhat useful now, however, in the next few years we will see an explosion of data.



Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on September 30, 2009, 12:04:33 AM

"one million full genomes per year by 2013."


In my opinion, that's data worth waiting for.
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_genome_sequencing


" In April 2009, Complete Genomics announced that it plans to sequence 1,000 full genomes between June 2009 and the end of the year and that they plan to be able to sequence one million full genomes per year by 2013.[57] Complete Genomics plans to officially launch in June 2009, although it is unknown if their lab will have received CLIA-certification by that time.

In June 2009, Illumina announced that they were launching their own Personal Full Genome Sequencing Service at a depth of 30X for $48,000 per genome.[58] This is still expensive for widespread consumer use, but the price may decrease substantially over the next few years as they realize economies of scale and given the competition with other companies such as Complete Genomics.[59][60] Jay Flatley, Illumina's President & CEO, stated that "during the next five years, perhaps markedly sooner," the price point for full genome sequencing will fall from $48,000 to under $1,000.[61] Illumina has already signed agreements to supply full genome sequencing services to multiple direct-to-consumer personal genomics companies.

In August 2009, the founder of Helicos Biosciences, Dr. Stephen Quake, stated that using the company's Heliscope Single Molecule Sequencer he sequenced his own full genome for less than $50,000. He stated that he expects the cost to decrease to the $1,000 range within the the next two to three years."


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 01, 2009, 01:55:12 PM
Ok,

I advise all who tested for L159.2 to re-check their FTDNA pages as mine does NOT say L159.2- but is back on my "Pending Lab Results" page.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 01, 2009, 05:36:42 PM
A testee for L159 received this e-mail from FTDNA today:

"Hello,Thank you for your email. Your L159- result was due to a brief glitch in the results collection system, which prematurely marked the test complete and assumed a negative result. We have fixed the bug and removed the L159 result. We do sometimes receive results within days of the test being ordered; your L159 test is processing now and will likely be complete within the next week.E-mail any time,Eileen Krause Murphy "


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 01, 2009, 06:06:19 PM
Ok,

I advise all who tested for L159.2 to re-check their FTDNA pages as mine does NOT say L159.2- but is back on my "Pending Lab Results" page.

Clearly FTDNA are just trying to ratchet up the tension here


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 01, 2009, 06:44:18 PM
According to the Leinster group administrator, we now have 3 L159+ men.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on October 01, 2009, 07:19:07 PM
Ditto.  I seriously hope they check the next results closely.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 01, 2009, 07:46:59 PM
I take that back: we now have 5 L159+, including the Beatties!! I'm next, hopefully!


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 01, 2009, 08:31:20 PM
I am now back in L159 Test Pending status....


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 01, 2009, 10:21:34 PM
FTDNA did the same thing with L21 when it was first discovered. I originally had a negative result for it, but waited a week and got a positive result.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 01, 2009, 11:18:06 PM
I thought about it being way to soon for results but I just thought the segment had already been primed but not read before. I have had several other 'Optional' tests that came back in just several weeks or less.

When did you order your?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 02, 2009, 12:23:18 AM
I was thinking the same thing. I ordered mine two weeks ago.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 02, 2009, 10:53:34 AM
About a week ago for me on September 23, so the wait is on. Any body know the age of the Leinster group?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 02, 2009, 11:05:27 AM
At first, we thought it was some time around the Norman invasion of England and Ireland, but since we have some continental matches, the date could easily be pushed back a lot longer.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 02, 2009, 12:05:56 PM
At first, we thought it was some time around the Norman invasion of England and Ireland, but since we have some continental matches, the date could easily be pushed back a lot longer.
I've read some old books on the Cambro-Norman Invasion of Ireland, circa 1170 AD.   At that time I believe a clan was already present in the Leinster area that is where the Kavanaugh surname came from.  I think there is a Kavanaugh or two in the Leinster group.  If all is so, they were pre-Norman (in Ireland.)


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 02, 2009, 04:16:21 PM
There are now 6 L159+ men.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 02, 2009, 04:49:34 PM
The surnames that tested L159+ so far are Carmack, FitzWilliam, Beatty/Beattie and Kavanaugh.

The cluster is confined to eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland, roughly.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on October 02, 2009, 05:11:18 PM
Do we know how many L159- among L21+?  And their locations?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 02, 2009, 05:14:27 PM
Those other testees for WTY tested negative, but I don't know their surnames or geographical location.

Nevertheless, I'm sure this SNP will split Ireland L21.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 02, 2009, 06:02:56 PM
Here is what Thomas Krahn wrote to Kirsten Saxe, one of the co-admins. for the Leinster group:

"Dear Kirsten,

...Other R-P312, R-L21, R-M222 WTY participants are L159.2 ancestral so far.
 
Thomas"

Would someone explain what this exactly means for sure?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 02, 2009, 06:04:39 PM
Thomas just said that the others who were involved in WTY testing all were negative for L159. That included members who were P312*, L21*, and M222.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 02, 2009, 06:10:45 PM
Ahhh those who already have completed WTY testing so far are negative. Got it. I was reading into it incorrectly. Thanks.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 02, 2009, 06:31:14 PM
There are now 6 L159+ men.
My understanding is that FitzWilliams is L159+ while being 464x 3c1g.  That implies that L159 within L21 maybe be a little broader than a few clans.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 02, 2009, 06:35:08 PM
Indeed! Maybe FitzWilliam's ancestors were Gaelic settlers in the Isle of Man?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 02, 2009, 08:12:50 PM
Those other testees for WTY tested negative, but I don't know their surnames or geographical location.

Nevertheless, I'm sure this SNP will split Ireland L21.

So far there have only been 3 results back from WTY fot L21 , the L159 result, somebody who is M222 but negative for L159, and a member of the Scots cluster, also I believe negative for this SNP


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 02, 2009, 11:06:08 PM
Yes, it will be interesting to see who tests negative for L159 and who tests positive for it.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 03, 2009, 08:53:36 AM
Are any of Robert Hughe's 17-14-10 / Wales modal 1 cluster in the WTY or doing an L159 test?   I just noticed a pattern holds across both this cluster and the Leinster cluster.  It may be nothing, but this loose pattern holds across these two groups and not to many other L21* guys.  They are on both sides of the Irish Sea.  Of course, maybe I'm seeing things.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 03, 2009, 09:03:32 AM
You know, we only have one man with Welsh ancestry in the project (Owen). There has to be more, like you said with Wales's location on the Irish Sea. What pattern are you seeing?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 03, 2009, 02:06:59 PM
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beatty_Byrnes_DNA/message/2369
states the guys who went positive on L159 so far.

"Who exactly tested positive for L159?
 
 3032 Peter Beattie                 L159+
14738 Hubert Carmack                L159+
88224 Ian Lansbury Fitzwilliam      L159+
92117 Ben Kavanaugh                 L159+
96585 John Gerald Kavanagh          L159+"


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 03, 2009, 02:16:28 PM
Now that is interesting. 14738 also has a DYS531=12.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 03, 2009, 02:32:57 PM
Now that is interesting. 14738 also has a DYS531=12.

I'm missing something. Lol


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 03, 2009, 02:49:23 PM
11 allele appears to be ancestral (11 is L21 modal) to the 12 value in R-L21 and possibly continental originated and is mostly in the East Isle. Every one that I have asked to test for L21 who has the 12 count has turned positive. It appears to be rare in U106 and is only around 6% in the entire FtDNA Database. Just an informal project.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 03, 2009, 02:59:48 PM
That's a good observation there, sir.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 03, 2009, 03:43:18 PM
If DYS531=12 which is a slow mutator, may have spawned in middle Rhine but in running a query on Ysearch resulted in very little continental 531=12 R-L21 hits. Check out the R-L21's in all locations.

http://tinyurl.com/CGZMG-L21only

So my quest may prove the founder may have originated continental but expanded in the Isles only. Although it is possible to have parallel lines have mutations in the same recent Hg but it would be extremely rare since it has a very slow mutation rate. Just a guess really.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on October 03, 2009, 04:07:35 PM
Looks pretty good, but I did find a few with 531=12 in the U152 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1c10/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1c10/default.aspx?section=yresults)

But 531=12 does appear to be a lot more common in R-L21 than in the U152 clades.

We have a few guys with 531=9. I did not see any of that in U152, just 11 and a few with 12.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on October 03, 2009, 04:13:04 PM
Looks pretty good, but I did find a few with 531=12 in the U152 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1c10/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1c10/default.aspx?section=yresults)

But 531=12 does appear to be a lot more common in R-L21 than in the U152 clades.

We have a few guys with 531=9. I did not see any of that in U152, just 11 and a few with 12.


I found just one in the R1b1b2a1b3 (SRY2627+) Project :

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults)

Otherwise, they're all 531=11.

There are a few R-P312* who have 531=12, too:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?section=yresults)

Looks like 531=12 is a fair indicator of L21+, if not an infallible one.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 03, 2009, 04:27:23 PM
Looks pretty good, but I did find a few with 531=12 in the U152 Project:
But 531=12 does appear to be a lot more common in R-L21 than in the U152 clades.
We have a few guys with 531=9. I did not see any of that in U152, just 11 and a few with 12.

That could be very handy when picking L21 testing candidates in suspected high S28 areas like Switzerland, north Italy, perhaps Belgium etc. 


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 03, 2009, 04:31:33 PM
I have 11 at DYS531.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on October 03, 2009, 04:32:32 PM
Quote from: alan trowel hands. link=topic=8966.msg113246#msg113246

That could be very handy when picking L21 testing candidates in suspected high S28 areas like Switzerland, north Italy, perhaps Belgium etc.  

Yes, for those candidates with 67 markers it could. Unfortunately, 531 is marker #38 in FTDNA's line-up.

One problem I have encountered is that there are not a lot of Belgians who have tested with FTDNA. There is a load of them who have tested with other companies, including one out of Leuven, but they would have to buy an STR test from FTDNA and wait for the results of that before even thinking about SNP testing (if they want to join our project, anyway).


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 03, 2009, 05:02:11 PM
Both groups have only 1 to 2% with a 12 allele so very rare in U152 and subclade xb4c and 2627 group. L21 is running over 6%.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 03, 2009, 05:10:27 PM
There were more P312* that had 531=12 a few months ago but I got some to upgrade and went L21+

Looks pretty good, but I did find a few with 531=12 in the U152 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1c10/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1c10/default.aspx?section=yresults)

But 531=12 does appear to be a lot more common in R-L21 than in the U152 clades.

We have a few guys with 531=9. I did not see any of that in U152, just 11 and a few with 12.


I found just one in the R1b1b2a1b3 (SRY2627+) Project :

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults)

Otherwise, they're all 531=11.

There are a few R-P312* who have 531=12, too:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?section=yresults)

Looks like 531=12 is a fair indicator of L21+, if not an infallible one.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 03, 2009, 05:14:08 PM
Then maybe my haplotype is just old!?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on October 03, 2009, 05:15:35 PM
There were more P312* that had 531=12 a few months ago but I got some to upgrade and went L21+

The ones I was talking about I pulled from the L21- categories. I don't call someone R-P312* unless he is negative for all the established P312+ clades, including L21.

It's true 531=12 is more common in L21+ than apparently anywhere else, but it is not a slam dunk. (I wish it were!)


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on October 03, 2009, 05:19:04 PM
Quote
I have 11 at DYS531.

So do I


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 03, 2009, 05:35:58 PM
In the P312 Project of those 531=12, I would bet that they have not tested for L21 and if they did they would all go L21+. Can you check if they have or not?
4131 Thomas Rice, Gloucester
59275 John Burnett, b.1794 Fettercairn, Kincardineshire
73014 Albert C. Jacobson, b. abt 1862, Norway

There were more P312* that had 531=12 a few months ago but I got some to upgrade and went L21+

The ones I was talking about I pulled from the L21- categories. I don't call someone R-P312* unless he is negative for all the established P312+ clades, including L21.

It's true 531=12 is more common in L21+ than apparently anywhere else, but it is not a slam dunk. (I wish it were!)


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 03, 2009, 06:05:48 PM
I'm 11 as well, isn't 12 part of the Scots modal?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on October 03, 2009, 06:09:55 PM
In the P312 Project of those 531=12, I would bet that they have not tested for L21 and if they did they would all go L21+. Can you check if they have or not?
4131 Thomas Rice, Gloucester
59275 John Burnett, b.1794 Fettercairn, Kincardineshire
73014 Albert C. Jacobson, b. abt 1862, Norway

You skipped Ranney, kit 93184.

Look at the categories those guys are in. They are all in R-P312* categories. I don't put people in R-P312* categories unless they are P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it.

That is why I wrote that I pulled them all from L21- categories. Just to be on the safe side I rechecked all of them just now, and they are all L21-.

The only men still untested for L21 in the R-P312 and Subclades Project are either in the "R-P312 (Need L21 Test results)" category or in "Unassigned Members".


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on October 03, 2009, 06:19:52 PM
I'm 11 as well, isn't 12 part of the Scots modal?

I believe it is, but there are other parts of it that are more important, I think, like having 19-24 at YCA II.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 03, 2009, 06:29:12 PM
Dang! I was going to bet on these too.... Maybe tests are incorrect.... :)
You have the advantage of seeing all their detail that we cant. Glad your on the job.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 03, 2009, 06:34:25 PM
I'm 11 as well, isn't 12 part of the Scots modal?

I believe it is, but there are other parts of it that are more important, I think, like having 19-24 at YCA II.

Along with 10 at 391 and 30 at 389ii, all of which I have, after that the similarities disappear, very odd but time will tell.

As it happens I’ve noticed a 7 off match on 67 somewhere in Wales, the only one I have that is close enough for FTDNA to report, the next nearest is 12 I believe. Unfortunately he only appears in my ancestor origins page, and I can’t find him in Ysearch either, ho hum.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 04, 2009, 12:17:15 AM
The Scots cluster is found all over Scotland, right?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on October 04, 2009, 09:52:25 AM
Dang! I was going to bet on these too.... Maybe tests are incorrect.... :)
You have the advantage of seeing all their detail that we cant. Glad your on the job.

I think you did a great job spotting that tendency in L21. It is definitely something to look for that will make selecting potential L21+ candidates easier. It tilts the odds in our favor.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2009, 12:36:38 PM
Are any of Robert Hughe's 17-14-10 / Wales modal 1 cluster in the WTY or doing an L159 test?   I just noticed a pattern holds across both this cluster and the Leinster cluster.  It may be nothing, but this loose pattern holds across these two groups and not to many other L21* guys.  They are on both sides of the Irish Sea.  Of course, maybe I'm seeing things.
I wasn't looking for a L159+ look-alike cluster to the Leinster guys, when I stumbled on this.   I have identified/listed about 40 "potential" clusters of R-L21*.  A number of these are variants of traditional modals - i.e. Scots, Wales 1, Wales 2, Wales 3, Irish TII, Irish TIII, Unknown Scots, Cluster X, Irish Sea/Leinster, etc.
I started looking for relationships among the clusters where there were "clean breaks," not a bunch of random clutter.   I noticed that DYS448<=18  and DYS449<=30 showed both Leinster/Irish Sea and the Wales 1 17-14-10 guys.
None of the other clusters that I've seen have this so it is a pretty clean break.  The only exception is a few Wales 2 Cadwgon guys have it also.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 04, 2009, 01:21:37 PM
The Scots cluster is found all over Scotland, right?

It's certainly very strong there, if you do a search against it's entry in Ysearch 2XD3U comparing matches over 57 markers and select for people who know there origin you get

Scotland 77
Ireland 29
England 11
Wales 0
Germany 1
Scandinavia 2

Of these only 7 don't have 12 at 531, and only one is Scottish.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: secherbernard on October 04, 2009, 01:23:03 PM
I just received my WTY results, but these results seem to me
a bit esoteric.

How to know if there are new SNPs in my results?

Bernard


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 04, 2009, 01:28:53 PM
I just received my WTY results, but these results seem to me
a bit esoteric.

How to know if there are new SNPs in my results?

Bernard

well you're been reported as having a 'new' SNP L69, this is another one in the L159 area, but I've looked at your result for this and can't see any difference with anybody else’s


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on October 04, 2009, 01:43:00 PM
I think Dr. Krahn and Kirsten Saxe are the ones to ask about understanding WTY results.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 04, 2009, 02:03:23 PM
Bernard,

You're SRY2627, right?


Neal


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 04, 2009, 02:14:38 PM
Bernard's part of the L21 WTY, he's the French participant


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: secherbernard on October 04, 2009, 02:58:09 PM
Thomas Krahn give me the following comment about my WTY results:

Quote
To make things clear, there was no NEW SNP found in your DNA. However
there were two things observed that distinguish you from all other R-L21
participants:

First you have a 14.3 micro-allele at DYS464 which is essentially a 1 bp
deletion SNP in one of the 4 DYS464 amplicons. We didn't sequence this
part of your DNA (we only measured the length of the segments) so we
can't tell if the SNP is inside the repeat unit or in the flanking
region. If the deletion is in the flanking region it is as good as a new
SNP and could be used as a marker for a new R-L21 branch. If it is
inside the repeat then chances are high that it is rather unstable. It
may be a good idea to do further research on your DNA and try to
sequence at least the flanking regions of your DYS464 alleles. Also note
that you have a DYS464X cccc configuration (No G-type allele!). This is
definitely a signature that lets you exclude all R-L21 with a G-type
allele from being a descendant of the first person in your male lineage
that had the cccc haplotype.

The second irregular feature is the L69+ marker which hasn't been
observed in other R-L21 persons so far. The L69/L159 polymorphism is
essentially a SNP/STR oxymoron. The base change happens right at the
intersection of a poly G homopolymer and a GT dinucleotide repeat.

In the case of L69+ the poly G is shortened from 6 to 4 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat gains one unit.
In the case of L159+ the poly G is elongated from 6 to 8 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat looses one unit.

This alignment of sequences may make this clearer:

AAACTGGGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L69+)
AAACTGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (HUGO and most others)
AAACTGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L159+)
L69......^
L159.......^
(note that the GT repeat count may vary and is disregarded for the
L96/L159 status)

The L69/L159 polymorphism is certainly not a UEP because it has been
observed in various other haplogroups and we are certainly at the very
beginning of understanding its mechanism and phylogenetic relevance. We
have to be careful because it can "mutate" back  like a regular STR.
However with caution it may be a good help to sort out genealogies and
haplotype clusters. Only further testing will answer the question how
useful this polymorphism may be and what mutation frequency we can expect.

Bernard


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on October 04, 2009, 03:42:50 PM
Bernard,

You're SRY2627, right?


Neal

Bernard was one of our first French R-L21s.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: rms2 on October 04, 2009, 03:44:39 PM
Thomas Krahn give me the following comment about my WTY results:

Quote
To make things clear, there was no NEW SNP found in your DNA. However
there were two things observed that distinguish you from all other R-L21
participants:

First you have a 14.3 micro-allele at DYS464 which is essentially a 1 bp
deletion SNP in one of the 4 DYS464 amplicons. We didn't sequence this
part of your DNA (we only measured the length of the segments) so we
can't tell if the SNP is inside the repeat unit or in the flanking
region. If the deletion is in the flanking region it is as good as a new
SNP and could be used as a marker for a new R-L21 branch. If it is
inside the repeat then chances are high that it is rather unstable. It
may be a good idea to do further research on your DNA and try to
sequence at least the flanking regions of your DYS464 alleles. Also note
that you have a DYS464X cccc configuration (No G-type allele!). This is
definitely a signature that lets you exclude all R-L21 with a G-type
allele from being a descendant of the first person in your male lineage
that had the cccc haplotype.

The second irregular feature is the L69+ marker which hasn't been
observed in other R-L21 persons so far. The L69/L159 polymorphism is
essentially a SNP/STR oxymoron. The base change happens right at the
intersection of a poly G homopolymer and a GT dinucleotide repeat.

In the case of L69+ the poly G is shortened from 6 to 4 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat gains one unit.
In the case of L159+ the poly G is elongated from 6 to 8 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat looses one unit.

This alignment of sequences may make this clearer:

AAACTGGGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L69+)
AAACTGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (HUGO and most others)
AAACTGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L159+)
L69......^
L159.......^
(note that the GT repeat count may vary and is disregarded for the
L96/L159 status)

The L69/L159 polymorphism is certainly not a UEP because it has been
observed in various other haplogroups and we are certainly at the very
beginning of understanding its mechanism and phylogenetic relevance. We
have to be careful because it can "mutate" back  like a regular STR.
However with caution it may be a good help to sort out genealogies and
haplotype clusters. Only further testing will answer the question how
useful this polymorphism may be and what mutation frequency we can expect.

Bernard[/size]

Some of that I don't really understand, but the stuff about 464 certainly sounds interesting and promising.

I guess we should all have our 464 tested for the c/g pattern. I have never done that yet.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 04, 2009, 05:39:02 PM
Bernard,

You're SRY2627, right?


Neal

Bernard was one of our first French R-L21s.

Aye.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 04, 2009, 05:39:42 PM
Yeah, the 464X test has been really fruitful for the Leinster cluster. It would be really interesting to have more L21 test for it.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on October 04, 2009, 09:16:08 PM
If I remember right it is part of Panel 5 of the FTDNA Advanced Orders.


Offaly - Kilkenny Clan O'Nolan: R-U152, L2-, L3-, L4-


DYS464X

N-4 - 15c-15c-17c-17c

N-30 - 15c-15c-17c-17c


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2009, 09:20:13 PM
Yeah, the 464X test has been really fruitful for the Leinster cluster. It would be really interesting to have more L21 test for it.
I wish the FTDNA reporting mechanism could list the 464x results.  It's pretty inexpensive, but I think it is more important to get to 67 markers and do a deep clade test (or deep claded extended) if you haven't already.

I'm 15c-15c-17c-17g or 3c1g.   I guess 3c1g is very common.  The 2c2g found by many if not most of the Leinster cluster is uncommon.   My understanding is that 464x mutations to 2c2g or to 4c or anything other than 3c1g is not as definitive (stable) as an SNP but more definitive (slower moving) than an STR.

I don't understand the statement that the "14.3 micro-allele at DYS464 which is essentially a 1 bp deletion SNP in one of the 4 DYS464 amplicons."  I don't see any comments like that related to a 464x test result.  Should there be or is the WTY testing the only way to know about this deletion?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 04, 2009, 09:48:32 PM
At least your in company, mine is ccgc. I have asked FtDNA what the mutations are that get to that point. I can not find any discussion on that much detail. gggg>cccg> then I do not know what the next mutations to take me to my ccgc.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on October 04, 2009, 10:09:02 PM
Have you tried the DNA Fingerprint site?
 

http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=11


"Some DYS464 examples from an arbitary surname project:
(conventional results)

surname A, 1: 15-15-16-17
surname A, 2: 15-15-16-17
surname A, 3: 15-15-16-17
surname B, 1: 15-15-16-18
surname C, 1: 15-15-15-17

If all the 5 persons are R1b then they can be typed with an extended DYS464 test.

We might get the following results:

surname A, 1: 15c-15c-16g-17c
surname A, 2: 15c-15c-16g-17c
surname A, 3: 15c-15c-16c-17g
surname B, 1: 15c-15c-16g-18c
surname C, 1: 15c-15c-15g-17c

From that result we could say:

- A1 and A2 match completely
- A3 has at least a genetic distance of 2 from (A1 & A2)
- B1 has a genetic distance of 1 from (A1 & A2)
- C1 has a genetic distance of 1 from (A1 & A2)

I hope this is not too technical! Feel free to ask questions.

Thomas Krahn"


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 04, 2009, 10:35:06 PM
Yes. Thanks. The document does not explain if the mutation occurs in any sequence and in what order, if any.  Since there is no additional detail, one could assume it is random in any 464 marker so I guess the question is: Does the single 'g' that most R1b's have, randomly appear at any position?

All Krahn states: "Most R1b males that we have tested show 3 C-types and 1 G-type. All other haplogroups (including R1a) show 4 G-types."


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on October 04, 2009, 11:09:04 PM
You may have already looked at John McEwan's 464 page, but it is below. I simply thought I would throw it out there.   

http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/464x.htm



Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 04, 2009, 11:38:07 PM
Yes reviewed that page as well before. I match a few key markers with the 464 and 464X (14c 15c 17g 18c) with LarryDR. I sure would like to see his entire str and Hg.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 06, 2009, 09:31:30 AM
Another Beattie says they received an L159+ result.    The Leinster cluster appears to be solid L159+.    

I still get confused on the naming of this.   This isn't really THE modal for the "Leinster" geography, but rather the current center for many of these folks.  Some think it is representative of "Lagin Chieftains" which a part of it appear to be.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-09/1220482508
I think the original identifier was Ken Nordtvedt.  Some originally called it the Irish Sea Modal.  There are folks from Scotland, Connacht, Ulster AND England in it (as well as Leinster of course) from what I can see, although all have not tested for L159 yet.

Any theories on the tribal origins of these "Leinster" men?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 06, 2009, 09:43:26 AM
It is thought that the concentration in eastern Ireland and the western seaboard of Britain is due to Gaelic settlement. But to be honest, we don't know, especially if it splits the Irish L21.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on October 06, 2009, 03:37:18 PM
 
Quote
There are folks from Scotland, Connacht, Ulster AND England in it

If I read Bernard's WTY results correctly, he is also L21+ and L159+.  Bernard's earliest known ancestor is from France.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 06, 2009, 03:47:30 PM
He's actually one of the few who are L159-. Thomas Krahn said all the other WTY participants were negative for it.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 06, 2009, 03:56:10 PM
Quote
There are folks from Scotland, Connacht, Ulster AND England in it

If I read Bernard's WTY results correctly, he is also L21+ and L159+.  Bernard's earliest known ancestor is from France.
What is the key thing you are looking for to define L159.2+ in WTY?   I thought I read that Secher was L159- L69+, not L159+.. but somehow L69+ is related to L159.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 06, 2009, 04:04:18 PM
I ask FtDNA to please explain the process of the 464X mutation process and they responded with the following.

"Hello,Thanks for your email.The mutation of gggg to cccg took place very early in R1b phylogeny, thousands of years before R-L21 developed.  Your results of ccgc fit exactly into what we would expect to see in most members of R1b.  Your order of c's and g's is ccgc because that is the order of the alleles, not because there is some deeper difference between cccg and ccgc.  If my answer did not address your question, please clarify and I can try to help you out.

Please let me know if you have any questions or if there's anything else I can do for you.

Thanks again,"


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: secherbernard on October 06, 2009, 04:07:10 PM
Quote
There are folks from Scotland, Connacht, Ulster AND England in it

If I read Bernard's WTY results correctly, he is also L21+ and L159+.  Bernard's earliest known ancestor is from France.
What is the key thing you are looking for to define L159.2+ in WTY?   I thought I read that Secher was L159- L69+, not L159+.. but somehow L69+ is related to L159.
I confirm, I am L21+ L159- L69+

From Thomas Krahn:
In the case of L69+ the poly G is shortened from 6 to 4 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat gains one unit.
In the case of L159+ the poly G is elongated from 6 to 8 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat looses one unit.
This alignment of sequences may make this clearer:

AAACTGGGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L69+)
AAACTGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (HUGO and most others)
AAACTGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L159+)


Bernard


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on October 06, 2009, 05:33:39 PM
Quote
I confirm, I am L21+ L159- L69+

I missread the explanation, thanks for the correction. 

I was interested in clarifying whether L159+ is limited to the Leinster cluster, at least for the testing so far, since this has significant implications in L21+ origins.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 06, 2009, 05:38:55 PM
Anyone can order it but look under Advanced orders > SNP > I-M26 for the L159 test.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 06, 2009, 07:05:42 PM
Appears that my 5th L21 Network cluster is turning L159+ so far. We'll see if anyone that does not have the DYS446=14 is always negative.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 06, 2009, 08:23:59 PM
Appears that my 5th L21 Network cluster is turning L159+ so far. We'll see if anyone that does not have the DYS446=14 is always negative.

And it doesnt included me.  I just went L159-


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 06, 2009, 08:29:30 PM
Are you DYS446=14?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 06, 2009, 08:35:06 PM
Yes I am. So it is down downstream from me, I am old stock.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Chuck Blandford on October 06, 2009, 08:59:52 PM
I just went L159- as well; I am also DYS446=14.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 06, 2009, 09:04:38 PM
So far, the Leinster cluster is at 100% L159+, while 2 out of 2 continentals are L159- and now Mr. Blandford is L159-.

Both of you guys ordered later than me, but I still haven't received results.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 06, 2009, 09:37:55 PM
now we can sit back a wait for the L21 WTY results. They have a large group still to test.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 06, 2009, 09:49:21 PM
Does anyone know how many other guys are doing WTY testing for L21?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 06, 2009, 10:05:59 PM
A Gaston, Byrne and a Foley have just gone L159+. One of our unclustered French, Hamon, went L159-.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 06, 2009, 11:33:24 PM
Quote
There are folks from Scotland, Connacht, Ulster AND England in it

If I read Bernard's WTY results correctly, he is also L21+ and L159+.  Bernard's earliest known ancestor is from France.
What is the key thing you are looking for to define L159.2+ in WTY?   I thought I read that Secher was L159- L69+, not L159+.. but somehow L69+ is related to L159.
I confirm, I am L21+ L159- L69+

From Thomas Krahn:
In the case of L69+ the poly G is shortened from 6 to 4 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat gains one unit.
In the case of L159+ the poly G is elongated from 6 to 8 bases and the
dinucleotid repeat looses one unit.
This alignment of sequences may make this clearer:

AAACTGGGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L69+)
AAACTGGGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (HUGO and most others)
AAACTGGGGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGTGCG (L159+)


Bernard
Is L69 something we should be looking at for more testing?  Did any others of the other L21+ WTY folks have L69+?   Can you order L69 on the advanced order menu?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 06, 2009, 11:47:48 PM
A Gaston, Byrne and a Foley have just gone L159+. One of our unclustered French, Hamon, went L159-.
Gaston must be NGGWH, right?
Is this the right Foley - 8XDZC ?
Which Byrne is it?  I assume he is one in the 464x project.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 07, 2009, 08:11:50 AM
Is L69 something we should be looking at for more testing?  Did any others of the other L21+ WTY folks have L69+?   Can you order L69 on the advanced order menu?

Bernard's closest match in Ysearch is 13, and his closest confirmed L21 is 15, so it may be a bit tricky targeting potential candidates, he does have two off modal slow mutating markers though that may help, dys393=14 and dys594=11.

So far he is the only WTY candidate to come back with this, but it can be ordered from FTDNA as it's also been found in some I2a1 people

Does anyone know how many other guys are doing WTY testing for L21?

15 L21s have been approved but so far only 12 kits have been returned, of these we have 4 results in, 2 no show, L159 and now L69


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 07, 2009, 09:08:12 AM
Mike, that Foley is the wrong one as ours has 14-30 at DYS389i and ii. The Gaston you have is correct.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 07, 2009, 11:22:42 AM
I noticed that FtDNA has added a bunch new SNP's to the R-L21 list. Anyone hear of some of these. (PS Only two show the discriptions on FtDNA's order page)

 R-L21 †  $99.00 *
This SNP (rs11799226) divides members of haplogroup R1b who are positive for rs34276300.

 L130  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813503 
Ancestral: G 
Derived: A 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Parallel to M222. 
Frequency: 


 L144  $29.00
Display Name: rs9306842 
Ancestral: A 
Derived: T 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Parallel to M222. 
Frequency: 


 L192  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813342 
Ancestral: C 
Derived: T 
Phylogeny: Found in a R-L21* person 
Frequency: 


 L193  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813344 
Ancestral: G 
Derived: A 
Phylogeny: Found in a R-L21* person 
Frequency: 


 L195  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:21120852 
Ancestral: del- 
Derived: ins+ 
Phylogeny: Found in one R-L21 person. Probably co-mutates with L144. HUGO unclear. 
Frequency: 


 L96  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:13411850 
Ancestral: A 
Derived: G 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Brother clade to all other published branches. 
Frequency: Possible Singleton. 



Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 07, 2009, 11:51:10 AM
Mike, that Foley is the wrong one as ours has 14-30 at DYS389i and ii. The Gaston you have is correct.
I figured out who the Foley was.  Which Byrne is it?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 07, 2009, 11:52:59 AM
I noticed that FtDNA has added a bunch new SNP's to the R-L21 list. Anyone hear of some of these. (PS Only two show the discriptions on FtDNA's order page)

 R-L21 †  $99.00 *
This SNP (rs11799226) divides members of haplogroup R1b who are positive for rs34276300.

 L130  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813503 
Ancestral: G 
Derived: A 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Parallel to M222.  .......
What does "Parallel to M222" mean?   Does that mean it is NOT found in any M222+ individuals?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 07, 2009, 12:18:23 PM
I took it as if you have M222 you might have this one as well. I would be nice if FtDna would post information as these thing come into play with a general blog or something.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 07, 2009, 12:34:49 PM
What does "Parallel to M222" mean?   Does that mean it is NOT found in any M222+ individuals?

I took it as meaning they didn't cross, but Thomas has them on his draft of the Y below R-M269, and they are shown as brother to M222 there.

http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=21 (http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=21)


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mark Jost on October 07, 2009, 12:51:21 PM
Ok, Brother and parallel clades are the same thing.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 08, 2009, 09:09:59 PM
I am officially L159+.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 09, 2009, 09:41:49 AM
I am officially L159+.

Marvellous news, are you the furthest GD from the Leinster Modal confirmed positive for L159?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 09, 2009, 11:01:43 AM
I actually think the Gaston L159+ is the furthest from the modal, but I'm not particularly close either.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 09, 2009, 01:10:24 PM
I actually think the Gaston L159+ is the furthest from the modal, but I'm not particularly close either.

How far is Gaston from the modal?

It's going to be interesting to see what happens when some of the more speculative tests for this start coming through, one person at least has a GD of 27 from the modal.

I wonder if anybody has ordered L69 yet, I'll be finding out if I'm positive for it next year or maybe the one after that, depending on how long my WTY takes.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 09, 2009, 02:39:09 PM
The Gaston actually inherits the WAMH, which is uncommon for the Leinster cluster. However, this could open up more testing to those who don't match ALL key markers for the Irish Sea Haplotype.

You know, a good portion of the cluster has Norman surnames and I wonder if some of the Irish surnames are actually descendants of Norman settlers. I was just informed of a 25 marker match with a Newell, a Hiberno-Norman surname.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 09, 2009, 03:22:32 PM
Hmm an SNP that encompasses France and Ireland, if that pans out I can just imagine the debate that would ensue.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 09, 2009, 03:51:33 PM
The Gaston actually inherits the WAMH, which is uncommon for the Leinster cluster. However, this could open up more testing to those who don't match ALL key markers for the Irish Sea Haplotype.

You know, a good portion of the cluster has Norman surnames and I wonder if some of the Irish surnames are actually descendants of Norman settlers. I was just informed of a 25 marker match with a Newell, a Hiberno-Norman surname.

Or it may just be history repeating itself.  I would guess that most significant groups of prehistoric settlers who came directly to Ireland from the continent rather than via Britain launched their boats from northern France. It may be that many Normans who arrived in Ireland had the same north French origin and y-lines as prehistoric settlers who came to Ireland.  Historians have commented on how the origin myth of the Leinstermen set in prehistory wherebye the Gauls were invited over was repeated again in historical times when Dermot McMurrough invited the Normans. to Ireland.  This all could account for the mixture of both Irish and Norman surnames in the Leinster cluster. 


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 09, 2009, 03:55:13 PM
Hmm an SNP that encompasses France and Ireland,

Yep we have that already in L21 although strangely this fact has not caused the eureka moment among those looking for the roots of Irish L21.  That kind of amazes me.  I am not sure what people are waiting for.   


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 09, 2009, 04:11:44 PM
I think the reason is that L21 covers such a large area, and people are looking for a SNP or marker that designates a SPECIFIC geographic area. I think we're slowly getting to that point, and I agree that L21 has done much for advancing research and theory. But people will still want more resolution.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Jdean on October 09, 2009, 04:24:38 PM
Probably also the fact that R1b1b2 results look so perishingly similar


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 09, 2009, 05:04:10 PM
I think the overall issue is we need a better way to obtain a more accurate sampling frame of the overall population.

That's the problem with the Leinster cluster. Members have matches from all over, from Norway to France, but getting them to test is almost futile. So we're stuck with a premise that the cluster's origins are in Britain and Ireland. I'm not opposed to such an origin, but there's blatant sampling bias at work here.

It appears some only want to sample those populations that will support their theories.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 09, 2009, 09:49:42 PM
I went ahead and requested a separate, R1b-L159.2 project at FTDNA. I want the process to be inclusive.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on October 09, 2009, 09:57:53 PM
"Yep we have that already in L21 although strangely this fact has not caused the eureka moment among those looking for the roots of Irish L21.  That kind of amazes me.  I am not sure what people are waiting for."


People are waiting for validation from the academic professional community, which is utterly ridiculous. Nobody needs to tell me its okay to do good science.
 


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on October 09, 2009, 11:20:45 PM
I agree with you, Mr. Nolan. We all are involved in the scientific process, investigating data-sets, formulating hypotheses and constantly updating them.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 10, 2009, 01:18:36 PM
I just saw in the BeattyBrynes (L159.2 guys) cluster that theyu had "L96- results from 3 individuals from 2 different families and L130-".

What is the breadth of derived (positive) testing for these other SNP's?

I noticed that FtDNA has added a bunch new SNP's to the R-L21 list. Anyone hear of some of these. (PS Only two show the discriptions on FtDNA's order page)

 R-L21 †  $99.00 *
This SNP (rs11799226) divides members of haplogroup R1b who are positive for rs34276300.

 L130  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813503 
Ancestral: G 
Derived: A 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Parallel to M222. 
Frequency: 


 L144  $29.00
Display Name: rs9306842 
Ancestral: A 
Derived: T 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Parallel to M222. 
Frequency: 


 L192  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813342 
Ancestral: C 
Derived: T 
Phylogeny: Found in a R-L21* person 
Frequency: 


 L193  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:6813344 
Ancestral: G 
Derived: A 
Phylogeny: Found in a R-L21* person 
Frequency: 


 L195  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:21120852 
Ancestral: del- 
Derived: ins+ 
Phylogeny: Found in one R-L21 person. Probably co-mutates with L144. HUGO unclear. 
Frequency: 


 L96  $29.00
Display Name: ChrY:13411850 
Ancestral: A 
Derived: G 
Phylogeny: Found within R-L21. Brother clade to all other published branches. 
Frequency: Possible Singleton. 




Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: GoldenHind on October 11, 2009, 07:32:37 PM
Hmm an SNP that encompasses France and Ireland,

Yep we have that already in L21 although strangely this fact has not caused the eureka moment among those looking for the roots of Irish L21.  That kind of amazes me.  I am not sure what people are waiting for.   
All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 11, 2009, 08:05:00 PM
All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?
[/quote]

lol I think that sort of theory and indeed all out of isles theories were dead as soon as places like France and SW Germany started throwing up an L21 majority among its local R1b1b2.  I think those ideas could only be sustained if you ignore the huge isles testing biase and focus on absolute numbers instead of what % of R1b that L21 is in each area. To look simply at absolute numbers is completely illogical of course.  Every 2nd French R1b1b2 person tested is L21 and the dominance of L21 in places like France and SW Germany can be seen by looking at the project maps for all the clades in this area while taking on board the fact that L21 has only been available for a very short time compared to S21 and S28.  Despite that, L21 is already the biggest clade of the biggest haplotype (and therefore the modal) in those areas.  To be honest I think some people just didnt want the believe this.  I have been so firm on this because I have kept a close eye on L21 in France and although the numbers tested were then too small for full credibility of any statistics, French L21 testing has since only half a dozen tests were hovered steadily around the 50% positive result mark, give or take.  Cross comparison of the Rhineland clade project maps seems to roughly indicate approaching 40% of R1b there is L21 too.  Again, note that L21 has only been available for testing for a fraction of the time of S28 etc.  

So, L21 stands a very good chance of being the modal for NW Europe west of the Rhine. Clearly its out of the question to explain this size of input by an out of isles scenario of any sort when the historical and archaeological records are also considered.     I posted several times that I thought that the Rhineland concentration was the visible eastern edge of an otherwise invisible (due to lack of testing) large L21 block mainly in France and that really does look like it is true. Its also silly to think France is OK but Germany must be wrong as an L21 source. That is based on modern ideas and stereotypes.  The Rhineland and France were both parts of the same Gaulish territory in the past and their was no cultural distinction between France and SW Germany at that time.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 11, 2009, 10:47:29 PM
Quote
All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?

lol I think that sort of theory and indeed all out of isles theories were dead as soon as places like France and SW Germany started throwing up an L21 majority among its local R1b1b2.  .....   I posted several times that I thought that the Rhineland concentration was the visible eastern edge of an otherwise invisible (due to lack of testing) large L21 block mainly in France and that really does look like it is true. Its also silly to think France is OK but Germany must be wrong as an L21 source. That is based on modern ideas and stereotypes.  The Rhineland and France were both parts of the same Gaulish territory in the past and their was no cultural distinction between France and SW Germany at that time.
I have to agree with you that the Rhineland was just the visible edge of old France.  It only makes sense.  Gaul was for Gauls and Gauls are Celts.  Ireland and much of Britain was also Celtic.  There certainly must be at least one common clade with this distribution...  L21+.   Some undefined pieces of P312* and probably U152 played a part of this too.    There also might be a types of Hg I that hung out with these guys too, at least in parts of the distribution.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: GoldenHind on October 12, 2009, 08:53:59 PM
All the French L21 were shipped out of Dundee and Aberdeen? Or was it Dublin and Wexford?

lol I think that sort of theory and indeed all out of isles theories were dead as soon as places like France and SW Germany started throwing up an L21 majority among its local R1b1b2.  
[/quote]
Obviously you haven't read a certain discussion on another forum today.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on November 13, 2009, 07:35:25 PM
A couple of folks came back L159.2+ today:

Flynn
Baldwin
O'Connor
McDonald
Megehee

Thanks to RMS for making some of us feel special on the L-21 Results page!!


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: vtilroe on November 13, 2009, 08:54:52 PM
Nealthered,

Is there an FTDNA project for L159.2?

I offered up the 10 guys Rich had categorized in the R-L21 project into Ken Nordtvedt's Generations2 spreadsheet and it came up with a coalescence age of 41 generations.


Title: Re: New SNP Downstream of L21
Post by: NealtheRed on November 13, 2009, 09:00:00 PM
Vince,

I set up an R-L159.2 project on FTDNA (to collect the results), but I'm not sure anyone knows about it.


Neal