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Title: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 11, 2009, 09:28:38 PM
I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -

388=11
392=14
459b=9
464c=15
and (for the two of them with enough markers in YSearch thus far)
CDYa,b=39,41

Prager (Lithuania, T8A6N), who belongs to this cluster, has tested L21+ and is a member of the R-L21 Plus Project.

The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Lewis (Lithuania; original surname Lubatinsky, B2BNR), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.

I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*.   

Opinions?


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 12, 2009, 02:03:23 AM
What do you mean with "R-L21 Ashkenazi cluster"? That some Ashkenazi are R-L21, but, being R-L21 probably very recent, these Ashkenazim are probably of recent European origin, like I think having demonstrated also for many others. You can discover if this is true: if you go on Ysearch, you will probably find that these guys are very close each other, usually within a GD od 4  over 25 markers, but at a greater GD (5 or more) you begin to find  not Jews. Usually this fact does mean that the introgression happened from 800 to 1200 years ago, probably in the Rhine Valley.
Now I will do this reasearch too, and after I'll write something to you. But if I won't write, it will mean that it'll be useless.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 12, 2009, 02:38:32 AM
They find a not Jew already at a GD of 4 over 25 markers, but the true problem is that they have mutations just on very slow mutating markers, but if you are sure that two of them are tested R-L21, you can solve the problem watching at W4225, a Peterson from Denemark, who has DYS392=14 and DYS464= 15,15,15,16. I think that the solution is in the fact that Jews, after having had introgressions from Italy or from the Rhine Valley, have preserved some cluster becoming rare or extinct in the place of origin for genetic drift and founder effect. Probably the same happened with R-L23 (- and +) they can have introgressed from the Roman Empire time.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 12, 2009, 09:14:15 AM
I wasn't trying to comment on their prehistoric origins. If I am right, I think these men are all L21+ and probably share a common ancestor perhaps as recently as the Middle Ages. And I was thinking the group's origin is probably West Central Europe, but that is just a guess based on the current distribution of L21.

I have heard from Kabo. He has ordered an L21 test. Kabo has many exact 12-marker matches with men with Ashkenazi-looking surnames. I know 12 markers are not enough, but two of the seemingly important off-modal markers for this group (if it is a group), 388 and 392, are in the first 12 markers.

If I can get a few more of these men to test for L21, we'll see if I am right and this is a real L21 cluster.

I think there may be something to this.



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 12, 2009, 11:34:11 AM
Alan R writes on “Genealogy-dna”: “I really think it’s time to open our eyes, look at the continental distributions of the main western European R1b clades and stop all this L21=isles, S21=Germanic and S28=Alpine Celtic labelling.  It just does not appear to stand up to scrutiny if you look at the FTDNA projects maps with an open mind”.

Probably we have won our fight and my friend Gioiello hasn’t yet lost his: where did the ancestors of L21/S21/S28 come from?

In this sense to investigate “Jewish clusters” can be useful for what I said above. 





Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 12, 2009, 04:13:03 PM
Alan R writes on “Genealogy-dna”: “I really think it’s time to open our eyes, look at the continental distributions of the main western European R1b clades and stop all this L21=isles, S21=Germanic and S28=Alpine Celtic labelling.  It just does not appear to stand up to scrutiny if you look at the FTDNA projects maps with an open mind”.

Probably we have won our fight and my friend Gioiello hasn’t yet lost his: where did the ancestors of L21/S21/S28 come from?

In this sense to investigate “Jewish clusters” can be useful for what I said above. 

I find it interesting for its own sake and also because I think it points toward Central Europe for the origin of L21. There is no way that I can see that a reasonable person could make these folks into the descendants of wayward Irish monks or wandering Scottish merchants.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 13, 2009, 01:43:12 AM
Alan R writes on “Genealogy-dna”: “I really think it’s time to open our eyes, look at the continental distributions of the main western European R1b clades and stop all this L21=isles, S21=Germanic and S28=Alpine Celtic labelling.  It just does not appear to stand up to scrutiny if you look at the FTDNA projects maps with an open mind”.

Probably we have won our fight and my friend Gioiello hasn’t yet lost his: where did the ancestors of L21/S21/S28 come from?

In this sense to investigate “Jewish clusters” can be useful for what I said above.  

I find it interesting for its own sake and also because I think it points toward Central Europe for the origin of L21. There is no way that I can see that a reasonable person could make these folks into the descendants of wayward Irish monks or wandering Scottish merchants.
You forgot the Britons who were all over the continent fighting as Roman Auxiliaries. LOL.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 13, 2009, 08:27:00 AM
How do we know these guys (Prago, Lewis/Lubatinsky, Kabo) are Ashkenazi?
By that I mean no offense, just is this what they state? or is it that they are just close matches with people who state they are Ashkenazi?


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 13, 2009, 09:27:49 AM
They are undoubtedly Ashkenazim by their surname, by their location of origin, by their relatedness within a GD of 3 over 25 markers, demonstrating a recent common ancestor, etc.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: GoldenHind on July 14, 2009, 02:35:42 PM
Alan R writes on “Genealogy-dna”: “I really think it’s time to open our eyes, look at the continental distributions of the main western European R1b clades and stop all this L21=isles, S21=Germanic and S28=Alpine Celtic labelling.  It just does not appear to stand up to scrutiny if you look at the FTDNA projects maps with an open mind”.
This is a position I have maintained for some years. The idea that these subclades were equivalent to the named ethnic groups was adopted almost immediately after their discovery, and was largely promulgated by a few people who wanted to identify their ancestors as Celtic, Germanic or British. They have to jump through all sorts of hoops to explain away the results that don't fit their preconceptions.
Unfortunately this notion is still prevalent today, and it seems no amount of evidence is sufficient to change most people's minds.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 14, 2009, 02:43:18 PM
How do we know these guys (Prago, Lewis/Lubatinsky, Kabo) are Ashkenazi?
By that I mean no offense, just is this what they state? or is it that they are just close matches with people who state they are Ashkenazi?

Maliclavelli is right, but also these folks have identified themselves as Ashkenazim.

Prager and Lewis are members of the Jewish R1b Project and have been placed in a category on the project's Y-DNA Results page. Sean Silver doesn't assign members to a category until he has confirmed that they are indeed Jewish. Kabo has joined the Jewish R1b Project but is still in the "Unassigned" category. However, I know from email communication that his widow has his genealogy established pretty firmly, and it is Jewish.



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 15, 2009, 09:38:16 PM
I just happened to spot a member of this cluster I did not know about: Mednick, kit 733, on the Y-DNA Results page of the Jewish R1b Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults), with origin in Kamenets-Podolsk, Ukraine, which is the same area my wife's mother's family is from.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 16, 2009, 12:32:47 PM
Just to make sure I have it right.  Here is the current line-up for this cluster, correct?

R-L21* confirmed:
T8A6N = Prager > Lithuania.
B2BNR = Lewis/Lubatinsky > Lithuania

R-L21* predicted:
534VG = Kabo > Latvia
SJFHN = Marcus > Ukraine
2Y8VJ = Millstein > unknown
733 = Mednick > Kamenets-Podolski, Ukraine

Also, is it okay to use the term Ashkenazi in labeling this cluster?  Don't want to offend anyone either by inclusion or exclusion.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 17, 2009, 09:08:39 AM
Just to make sure I have it right.  Here is the current line-up for this cluster, correct?

R-L21* confirmed:
T8A6N = Prager > Lithuania.
B2BNR = Lewis/Lubatinsky > Lithuania

R-L21* predicted:
534VG = Kabo > Latvia
SJFHN = Marcus > Ukraine
2Y8VJ = Millstein > unknown
733 = Mednick > Kamenets-Podolski, Ukraine

Also, is it okay to use the term Ashkenazi in labeling this cluster?  Don't want to offend anyone either by inclusion or exclusion.

That's right, and there are a bunch of others who aren't in YSearch or, as fas I know, in any of the public projects.

I guess the term Ashkenazi is okay to use for the cluster. It seems the most accurate. I guess it could branch out and include folks who have no known Ashkenazi heritage, so maybe some other name would be more appropriate.

I found one Frenchman, Thierry (DPVGV), who appears to belong to the cluster. I emailed him but have gotten no response.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 19, 2009, 06:33:17 PM
I'm a confirmed L21 (S116). But to my surprize to an Irish Catholic, form Tipperary since 1834, my Y DNA is showing Babylonian, Khazarian, Lithuanian, and Belgium and Spainish place markers.

All four grandparents show Jewish ancestry throuhg DNA testing and surnames matching . My materal line and fathers maternal line are Ashkenasi Jewish. While my Y DNA and mothers praternal line is Sephardic Jewish.  So it appears that I'm an R1b Ashkenasi Jew.  (They intermixed with the Sephardic Jews along the Pyrennes.)

It appears my ancestors went form Babylon, to Jewish Khazaria, to Lithuania, and on to either Spain (Pyrennes / N. Portugal) or the Netherlands (Rhine River) around the 8th C. Could L21 (R1b1b2a1b6) be a rare Jewish subclade? I'm guessing that the subclade split in Babylon - some on to Spain and others on to the Netherlands before crossing the Channel.

I also have that rare marker DYS 391=12. My Y Search is Q7N4B



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2009, 01:06:03 AM
Dear Cusack, I don't know by which paper trail you have reconstruct your ancestry (and surname Cusack can make us think to an Eastern Origin: Cossack?), but your DNA is undoubtedly "Irish": you find only Irish (or British) R-L21 within a GD of 3 or 4 over 25 markers. I think yours isn't at all a "Possible Ashkenazi R-L21 cluster", which, when it exists, comes from a German R-L21 and not from an Irish one. Probably there weren't Jews in Ireland at that Genetic Distance.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2009, 01:28:47 AM
Probably your DYS464 isn't 13,16,19 but 13,13,16,19. It would be also something to say on who did your exam.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 20, 2009, 10:17:54 AM
My DYS 464 is indeed 13, 16, 19. You can check this on Y Search.  My paper trail  leads to Ireland.  We are definitely not Cossack's. Cusack is supposedly of Norman Irish origin formm Cussac France.  But there are no L21's in that area.  Nevertherless, I may well be Irish or even perhaps of Spanish origin. My closest match fo on 54 markers is Irish (gd =14 ) ; Spanish Netherlands (gd=17) a nd then Lithuanian (gd=19).


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2009, 10:41:14 AM
I checked your DYS464 on Ysearch, but who put the data? The closest to you have 13,13 in DYS464a,b, and it is probable you are the same. A result of 13,13 has a unique peak and must be read as a double one. Otherwise ask who did your test where have you lost a "peak". My friend Geppo would say: ah ah ah ah...


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 20, 2009, 11:07:41 AM
I have a printout form Y Search in front of me and it is a 13, 16, 19 for DYS 464a, b, c.  d is lfet blank.  I was tested by Genebase and I put the data in myself.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 20, 2009, 11:21:36 AM
I tested against a Spanisard (Madrid) and had 23/30 markers match withthat all  important 391=12 a match. Also, genebase is NOT showing a match to Ashkenasi Jews. It's showing primarily Spainish and Irish. I may well not be an Ashkenazi L21 afterall.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2009, 11:27:57 AM
And I think that Genebase is wrong and probably you are DYS464= 13,13,16,19, otherwise you have lost a segment, but they should be sure on this. I think you should ask for your plot.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2009, 11:32:11 AM
DYS391=12 isn't rare at all. I think it is the modal for Irish R-L21!


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 20, 2009, 11:37:38 AM
Yes.But it also appears in Spain, Pyrenees, Portugal, Germany, Munster , Wesphalia, etc

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_dys391_12.htm


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 20, 2009, 11:54:12 AM
If you do a Y Search run on R1b1b2a1b, you'll see that there are few DYS391=12.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 20, 2009, 01:37:24 PM
On second thought, I think they must have taken the southern route to Spain from Khazaria. From there on to the Netherlands before finally ending up in Ireland.

The individual that I match 15/17 markers is a Gayles - a Jewish Lithuanian name - is an Afro American.

The individual that I match GD 19 / 54 markers is Prager.  But I have closer matches to Irish and Spainish.

So that settles it.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 20, 2009, 02:53:50 PM
I must be a Sephardic Jew instead of Ashkenasi R1b.  The individual that I was using for a match is a Gayles which is a  Lithuanian Jewish name. However, he an Afro American -not Lithunian.  So that settles that. Thnaks for your help. Good luck!


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2009, 03:00:43 PM
Prager is on the List of Rich and we all are thinking he is a Jew of European ancestry with the roots in the Rhine Valley and you, matching him at the GD of 19 over 54 markers, have a MRCA at least 2,500 years ago.
Re Afro-Americans, about 30% have an European male ancestor, above all from the British Isles. I don’t know if his surname is from Lithuanian Jews (I’ll be able to say something next), but his DNA certainly isn’t.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 20, 2009, 04:45:27 PM
2500 years ago was approximately the end of the Babylonian Exile.  It supports the theory that there was a split from Babylon  -one north through Khazaria (Kazachstan) ot the Netherlands-and the other to Sephardic Spain to the Netherlands.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 20, 2009, 06:58:26 PM
I'm also a close match to a Ponte FjZF3(Spanish name) from the Netherlands with a 17 GD on 54 markers.

In Ireland, I match a Ryan BEWXH with a GD of 14 on 54 markers.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2009, 08:31:19 PM
2500 years ago was approximately the end of the Babylonian Exile.  It supports the theory that there was a split from Babylon  -one north through Khazaria (Kazachstan) ot the Netherlands-and the other to Sephardic Spain to the Netherlands.
I don't know the origin of this Ponte from Netherlands: anyway Ponte is an Italian surname (in Spanish it would be "Puente") and in Italy there are more than 3500 Ponte on the phone Directory.
I am finding your theories very queer. Anyway if you think to be a Jew, try to overcome the exam of Sean Silver and of the "R1b Jewish project".
Good luck!


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 20, 2009, 09:30:05 PM
Actually, you may be correct about the Spanish spelling . I got the variations from House of Names.

http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/Origin.SP/qx/Ponte-family-crest.htm

However, I just got another match for my Y DNA : Reifsnyder - which is a Russian Jewish name - according to the Jewish Surnames index.

Sean Silver needs to have at least a grandparent who is known to have been Jewish. I don't qualify.  But I still know that I'm an L21 R1b Jew.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 23, 2009, 07:54:42 PM
I'm a confirmed L21 (S116) . . .

S116 is not the same thing as L21. S116 is Ethnoancestry's equivalent of P312. That company's name for L21 is "S145".


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 23, 2009, 08:41:42 PM
Actually, you're right. I'm an L21 /S145.  Thank you.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 23, 2009, 09:08:56 PM
I think my ancestor must have come out of Khazaria then on to Spain. From Spain on to the Rhine River area. From there to Ireland.

I am showing mathces to Western Russians (all Jews as well). But its back 42 genrations. (16/18 markers). That would put him in Khazaria possibly in the 5 th Century.

I'm also showing a strong match to the Pyrenees. The top two at a GD of 0 are Pyrennes.  But my highest RMI is Irish.  At a GD of 2 the top 4 of 5 are Spainish and Portugal.

Is suspect that my ancestry came out of Khazaria on to Spain rather than Litthuania or Ashlkenazi Jewish (aside form my other bloodlines). They probably ended up in the Rhine I suspect if they are L21's inb the 6-8th Century.  I match a Lowe who is Jewish who were in the Rhine in 758AD.

Pleasae forgive me I'm still learning!


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 23, 2009, 10:31:47 PM
I am related to a Shuman (Ashkenasi, Poland, Russian) 17/18 markers in 24 genrations. Perhaps they did go rom Khazaria through Western Russia??


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 25, 2009, 01:09:26 PM
Please keep this thread on track by discussing the cluster characterized by the following marker values:

388=11
392=14
459b=9
464c=15


If someone who does not belong to the cluster above wants to discuss his own Jewish or other matches, then that person should start a separate thread. Otherwise we go down all sorts of avenues that detract from the object of the original discussion.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 25, 2009, 01:12:49 PM
Please keep this thread on track by discussing the cluster characterized by the following marker values:

388=11
392=14
459b=9
464c=15


If someone who does not belong to the cluster above wants to discuss his own Jewish or other matches, then that person should start a separate thread. Otherwise we go down all sorts of avenues that detract from the object of the original discussion.



By the way, thus far I have found 19 different apparently Ashkenazi surnames that belong to this cluster, so it could be quite extensive.

Now if we could get even just a few of those folks tested for L21!


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 25, 2009, 03:27:30 PM
Here is a list of some of the probable members of this cluster whose names are either in YSearch or a public project:

1.  Prager (Lithuania, T8A6N)
2.  Lewis (original surname Lubatinsky; Lithuania, B2BNR)
3.  Kabo (Latvia, 534VG)
4.  Marcus (Ukraine, SJFHN)
5.  Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ)
6.  Mednick (Ukraine, no YSearch entry)
7.  Weiler (Russia, EGNM6)
8.  Friedman (Russia, 8AAG6)
9.  Livio (original surname Livschitz; Finland, HDCDF)


Like I said, there are at least 10 other surnames possibly associated with this cluster, but they aren't in public databases.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 25, 2009, 05:57:23 PM
My apoligizes.  I thought you might be interested in an L21 Ashkenasi Jew.  My markers don't match the 4 that you have as a clustered. But I think you'll find that the L21's came out of Jewish Khazaria, between the Black and Caspian Seas, and on to Western Russia (Lithuania, Poland and Rumania also) before ending in the Rhine in the 6-8 th C.

I thought you were looking for tested L21 Ashkenasi Jews as per your original thread.  But the rsduults don't show what you had in mind.

Thnaks for all your help.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 26, 2009, 11:34:39 AM
My apoligizes.  I thought you might be interested in an L21 Ashkenasi Jew.  My markers don't match the 4 that you have as a clustered. But I think you'll find that the L21's came out of Jewish Khazaria, between the Black and Caspian Seas, and on to Western Russia (Lithuania, Poland and Rumania also) before ending in the Rhine in the 6-8 th C.

I thought you were looking for tested L21 Ashkenasi Jews as per your original thread.  But the rsduults don't show what you had in mind.

Thnaks for all your help.

No need to feel slighted. I am interested, so please start a separate thread.

I just wanted to keep this one focused on the original topic.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: pcusack1 on July 27, 2009, 01:36:49 AM
Actually, I don't have anything else to add , except that my Y Search ID is CC39H.  A word of caution:  I  match Ashkenasi's (Shumean) as well as Sephardi's ( Eadie) as well as many onther Jews. I haven't got it sorted out completedly yet. My testing was done at Genebase.com

Good Luck with your research!



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 29, 2009, 01:51:22 PM
Well, now we have two members of this cluster with L21 results pending, aside from Prager, who is already L21+.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 02, 2009, 01:48:21 PM
We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.

So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).

I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 04, 2009, 10:34:03 AM
Kabo (Latvia, 534VG) has gone L21+!

He is now in the Eastern Europe category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: vtilroe on August 04, 2009, 07:55:44 PM
Excellent!  Nice going!


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 04, 2009, 08:13:40 PM
Excellent!  Nice going!

Thanks! It's pretty exciting to see this cluster confirmed.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2009, 10:08:58 AM
Two more members of this cluster have gotten L21+ results: Madan and Lewis (Lubatinsky).

There was some miscommunication between Lewis and me early on. I thought he already had L21+ results, but now that is moot: he has been tested and is L21+.

That makes four members of this cluster who have tested L21+ thus far: Kabo, Lewis, Madan, and Prager.

As I mentioned before, I have found at least 19 different, apparently Ashkenazi surnames belonging to members of this cluster.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: GoldenHind on August 05, 2009, 02:23:16 PM
Two more members of this cluster have gotten L21+ results: Madan and Lewis (Lubatinsky).

There was some miscommunication between Lewis and me early on. I thought he already had L21+ results, but now that is moot: he has been tested and is L21+.

That makes four members of this cluster who have tested L21+ thus far: Kabo, Lewis, Madan, and Prager.

As I mentioned before, I have found at least 19 different, apparently Ashkenazi surnames belonging to members of this cluster.
I can't find any previous reference to Madan. Could you kindly provide details?


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on August 05, 2009, 02:31:11 PM
"There was some miscommunication between Lewis and me early on."

Yeah, I had miscommunication problems last year with someone who turned out not to be R-U152 after all. Glad you worked through the miscommunication. It takes some effort to sort things out when you can only communicate through e-mail.

Nice work on this R-L21 group, though. 

Thanks,


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2009, 02:46:08 PM
I can't find any previous reference to Madan. Could you kindly provide details?

I didn't refer to him previously because he wasn't listed in any public project or in Ysearch.

He's in the cluster but has yet to complete his "Plot Ancestral Locations" page or to create a YSearch entry.

I am waiting for him to answer my most recent email regarding his ancestor's birthplace or hometown. In his last email he warned me that he has a big backlog of email and may be somewhat slow to answer.

He's kit N54190 on the R-L21 Plus Project's Y-DNA results page.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2009, 02:47:11 PM
"There was some miscommunication between Lewis and me early on."

Yeah, I had miscommunication problems last year with someone who turned out not to be R-U152 after all. Glad you worked through the miscommunication. It takes some effort to sort things out when you can only communicate through e-mail.

Nice work on this R-L21 group, though. 

Thanks,

Thanks!


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2009, 09:59:55 AM
Bloom (no YSearch entry yet), a member of this cluster whose ancestor came from Russia, has joined the R-L21 Plus Project and has an L21 test pending.

I don't know from where in Russia his ancestor came. I'm trying to find out.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2009, 11:02:36 AM
Here is the summary and translation from Russian by Lena Govor (Vladimir Kabo's widow) of some analysis by Dr. Anatole Klyosov. Dr. Klyosov explained to me that "modal" should be replaced by "ancestral" below, in that the ancestral haplotype is meant.

Quote
Dear distant cousins from R1b1b2a1b5 haplogroup,

I have consulted about our ancestry with Dr Anatole Klyosov, specialist in kinetic of DNA mutations (http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/ (http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/)). His reconstruction of the ‘genealogy’ of Jews in R1b1b2 haplogroup is the following:

The cluster of our 7 haplotypes is on the bottom right, indicated by our surnames. Translating Dr Klyosov’s explanation in Russian (my comments are in square brackets): [I am unable to attach Dr. Klyosov's tree here. rms2]

‘[In comparison with modal [ancestral is meant here rather than modal - rms2] markers of the group] all these haplotypes have 8 mutations in 25 markers and 14 mutations in 37 markers. This places the common ancestor of all 7 haplotypes 650±240 years back if calculating on the basis of 25-markers and 550±160 back if calculating on the basis of 37 markers. In other words these seven people have a common ancestor who lived in the 14-15th century. It is possible to reconstruct that these families fled Central Europe around 650 years ago when Europe was depopulated by the bubonic plaque and Jews were often massacred as alleged culprits of the epidemic. The surviving Jews fled to Lithuania and Poland, who offered them protection. Jews at that time experienced a genetic bottleneck [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck)]. That is why the most distant common ancestor of many Jewish clusters lived in the middle of the 14th century or later – that corresponds to the time of their migration to the new territories in Eastern Europe.

The tree has another cluster which is located in the right part above your cluster [its haplotypes are indicated by digits with letters]. This is the cluster of the Rogov family and their relatives, Byelorussian-Baltic Jews, who came to these territories the same way as yours, fleeing Central Europe. Their common ancestor lived about one thousand years ago and the common ancestor of the Rogovs and your group lived 3900-4200 years ago (the first figure is based on calculations of 25 markers and the second on 37 markers). Thus the genealogical lines of Jews in haplogroup R1b1b2 separated in Abraham’s time to meet again in the Baltic territories 4,000 years later’.

Earlier Dr Klyosov wrote that ancestors of R1b1b2 haplogroup belong to ‘kurgan culture’ [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_culture#Kurgan_culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_culture#Kurgan_culture)] who traversed the Southern Russian steppe and via the Middle East came to Egypt, and thus could be among ‘Many other people’ (‘mixed multitude’) (Exodus 12:38) which followed Moses as part of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Their following migration included North Africa, the Iberian Peninsula and Europe.

Regarding the last few comments concerning the Middle East, Dr. Klyosov indicated that the R1b1 in the Near East is older than that in Europe, which may indicate an origin there, after which the branch that became R1b1b2 went north to the Russian steppe.





Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on September 20, 2009, 06:39:22 PM
Bloom (no YSearch entry yet), a member of this cluster whose ancestor came from Russia, has joined the R-L21 Plus Project and has an L21 test pending.

I don't know from where in Russia his ancestor came. I'm trying to find out.

Bloom got his L21+ result today. His ancestor actually came from Lomza, Poland, not Russia, as I originally thought.

Thus far this cluster, with six of its members tested, is 100% L21+.

I don't think there can be any real doubt that it is a solid L21+ cluster now.

At last count there were at least 21 different Ashkenazi surnames associated with this cluster. That makes it pretty significant, it seems to me.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: NealtheRed on September 20, 2009, 07:37:43 PM
So what can we deduce from this cluster? Obviously it originated in Central Europe/Germany most likely?


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on September 21, 2009, 03:08:41 PM
So what can we deduce from this cluster? Obviously it originated in Central Europe/Germany most likely?

Yes, that's right. Dr. Anatole Klyosov compared seven of its haplotypes and concluded that all its members are probably descended from the same man who lived in Central Europe in the 14th century. He theorizes that it wound up in the Baltic as a consequence of the persecution of Jews that followed in the wake of their being blamed for the Bubonic Plague.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 22, 2009, 07:36:27 AM
One thing is for sure.  The line was not originally a Jewish one.  Sooner or later we will find non-Jewish representatives of this clade in western Europe, descendants of the original line before someone on it converted to Judaism.  Unlike the Jewish members of this cluster, the non-Jewish ones should be located among the main L21 block in western Europe.  Their numbers may be much lower than the Jewish members. Do the STRs of this cluster point to similarity with any non-Jewish individuals.  That may give a clue about the origin point of this cluster.   


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on September 22, 2009, 08:13:54 AM
One thing is for sure.  The line was not originally a Jewish one.  Sooner or later we will find non-Jewish representatives of this clade in western Europe, descendants of the original line before someone on it converted to Judaism.  Unlike the Jewish members of this cluster, the non-Jewish ones should be located among the main L21 block in western Europe.  Their numbers may be much lower than the Jewish members. Do the STRs of this cluster point to similarity with any non-Jewish individuals.  That may give a clue about the origin point of this cluster.  

I have found just one so far who might not have Jewish heritage (although I don't know that for sure).

The surname is Thierry, YSearch DPVGV, and the most distant ancestor is listed as originating in Chateau-Thierry in NE France. He is definitely in the cluster and I am sure is L21+.

No others have popped up that far west or with non-Ashkenazi surnames. I have emailed Thierry at least twice but have gotten no response.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 24, 2009, 08:29:28 PM
I don't think this guy fits in the cluster but I just noticed in the R1b Jewish project this kit # - 47514.  The MDKA listed is "David Ballard NA, Porshia France, Goldsmith German".

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on September 25, 2009, 08:00:06 AM
I don't think this guy fits in the cluster but I just noticed in the R1b Jewish project this kit # - 47514.  The MDKA listed is "David Ballard NA, Porshia France, Goldsmith German".

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

I have tried to contact him in the past but got no response.



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on May 08, 2011, 01:53:15 PM
One thing is for sure.  The line was not originally a Jewish one.  Sooner or later we will find non-Jewish representatives of this clade in western Europe, descendants of the original line before someone on it converted to Judaism.  Unlike the Jewish members of this cluster, the non-Jewish ones should be located among the main L21 block in western Europe.  Their numbers may be much lower than the Jewish members. Do the STRs of this cluster point to similarity with any non-Jewish individuals.  That may give a clue about the origin point of this cluster.  

I have found just one so far who might not have Jewish heritage (although I don't know that for sure).

The surname is Thierry, YSearch DPVGV, and the most distant ancestor is listed as originating in Chateau-Thierry in NE France. He is definitely in the cluster and I am sure is L21+.

No others have popped up that far west or with non-Ashkenazi surnames. I have emailed Thierry at least twice but have gotten no response.


This is my first post in the forum, so am hoping you don’t all jump on me all at once. Also, apologies for restarting a year-and-a-half old thread, but I’m new to this. I have been trying to figure out how Thierry fits into the R-L21 Baltic Cluster (if he does), with a non-Ashkenazi name and a few off-modal markers. He does have the DYS388-439 11-11 STR markers, and is the only other R-L21 person with them outside of the Baltic Cluster.

The only recent additions to the Baltic Cluster are clearly Ashkenazi and nobody in Western Europe or the British Isles has been added yet. So, who is this Thierry guy? There is a long-standing academic debate regarding a supposed relation between Theuderic (Thierry) and the Jewish Makhir of Narbonne. Nathaniel Taylor’s rebuttal to Arthur Zuckerman’s 1972 book, A Jewish Princedom in Feudal France, is extremely informative, and methodically takes apart the Zuckerman conclusion that these two were the same person.

The web debate on this Thierry/Makhir identity has been vociferous, and that’s putting it mildly. Apparently, many in genealogy circles would like it to be true so they could prove a Descent from Antiquity (i.e., from King David to the present). I don’t know what to think of this, except that the Baltic Cluster outlier Thierry shows up in Ysearch with STRs clearly matching a lot of Ashkenazi Eastern European Jews, and with a very interesting name.

Is this all just a coincidence? Can one of you enlighten me? During the 8th century, Charles Martel apparently kept Theuderic IV a prisoner at Chateau-Thierry (which, by the way, is on the other side of France from Narbonne). It’s too bad that Thierry wasn’t tested at an FTDNA lab.



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on May 08, 2011, 02:40:12 PM
I was not aware of that background. I merely noticed Thierry back when I was scouring Ysearch for members of the Baltic Cluster. It's been awhile since I looked at his Ysearch entry.

I have written him a number of times but, unfortunately, have never received a response. Apparently his email connection via Ysearch was good, since none of my emails was returned as undeliverable.



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 09, 2011, 11:35:44 PM
..This is my first post in the forum, so am hoping you don’t all jump on me all at once. Also, apologies for restarting a year-and-a-half old thread, but I’m new to this. .

Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm very interested in your thoughts and research.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on May 10, 2011, 11:07:37 AM

Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm very interested in your thoughts and research.

Thanks for the encouragement. This will be even more interesting when the Baltic Cluster person's WTY results come back with some potential new SNPs. Of course, that person is me, so I'm looking forward to when the lab gets back to scoring the newest sequences.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on May 12, 2011, 07:38:46 PM
I merely noticed Thierry back when I was scouring Ysearch for members of the Baltic Cluster.

I thought I would scour the web as well as ysearch looking for other DYS388 = 11 and found a post from someone named Nigel Seel in the UK who posted his (relatively few) Oxford Ancestors STR markers on his blog. He says he is AMH, and maybe he is - but he also has some Baltic Cluster similarities like Thierry. His markers are:

DYS 19 = 14
DYS 388 = 11
DYS 390 = 23
DYS 391 = 11
DYS 392 = 13
DYS 393 = 13
DYS 389i = 10
DYS 389ii-i = 16
DYS 425 = 12
DYS 426 = 12

Can't know if he is L-21, but if he was, then he would be the only other non-Eastern European besides Thierry with DYS388 = 11, which appears to be an interesting Baltic Cluster (or close) indicator for anyone near AMH. His post can be found at

http://interweave-consulting.blogspot.com/2008/12/more-on-y-chromosome-dna-testing.html


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on June 01, 2011, 04:53:47 PM

This will be even more interesting when the Baltic Cluster person's WTY results come back with some potential new SNPs. Of course, that person is me, so I'm looking forward to when the lab gets back to scoring the newest sequences.



Well, how about that!!

SNP L583, which I guess showed up on the Finch2 server today,  is from my WTY sequence, and it's likely one that will be an identifier for the Baltic Cluster (Eastern European Ashkenazic).  It would be very interesting if anybody outside of that cluster ends up testing positive for this SNP.




Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Jdean on June 01, 2011, 05:34:32 PM
I'll say and congrats


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 01, 2011, 05:40:30 PM

This will be even more interesting when the Baltic Cluster person's WTY results come back with some potential new SNPs. Of course, that person is me, so I'm looking forward to when the lab gets back to scoring the newest sequences.



Well, how about that!!

SNP L583, which I guess showed up on the Finch2 server today,  is from my WTY sequence, and it's likely one that will be an identifier for the Baltic Cluster (Eastern European Ashkenazic).  It would be very interesting if anybody outside of that cluster ends up testing positive for this SNP.



That is great. Congratulations. Let's get your Baltic buddies tested too.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on June 01, 2011, 07:07:53 PM
That is great. Congratulations. Let's get your Baltic buddies tested too.

Maybe I'll think about starting up a new R-L583 Project. We'll see how I do getting some of the "Baltic buddies" to test. I know there at least 25 who would most likely be positive.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on June 01, 2011, 08:22:06 PM
Is FTDNA offering a test for L583 yet?

I know they found it via the WTY, but when will it be available for general order?


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on June 01, 2011, 08:51:39 PM
Is FTDNA offering a test for L583 yet?

I know they found it via the WTY, but when will it be available for general order?

 I checked and no test is available yet. Perhaps in a month or so would be my guess, based on their turnaround for offering new tests.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on June 08, 2011, 10:34:16 AM
Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm very interested in your thoughts and research.

I found a new R-L21 in the Jewish R1b project with a Jewish surname Cohen with oldest known ancestor Marcus Cohen b. 1830 in Poland. He is not yet in the R-L21 project but I encouraged him to join. His FTDNA Kit# is 2842. Non-Baltic Cluster Jewish names are very few and far between in the R-L21 project (Kimhi in the Spanish group is a notable exception, and Cohen only differs at 385 being a slightly unusual 11-16). He only has 12 markers, but he doesn't match any confirmed R-L21 even at 12.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on June 08, 2011, 10:39:09 AM
Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm very interested in your thoughts and research.

I found a new R-L21 in the Jewish R1b project with a Jewish surname Cohen with oldest known ancestor Marcus Cohen b. 1830 in Poland. He is not yet in the R-L21 project but I encouraged him to join. His FTDNA Kit# is 2842. Non-Baltic Cluster Jewish names are very few and far between in the R-L21 project (Kimhi in the Spanish group is a notable exception, and Cohen only differs at 385 being a slightly unusual 11-16). He only has 12 markers, but he doesn't match any confirmed R-L21 even at 12.

If and when a L583 test becomes available, maybe I can convince him to test for it. I would be flabbergasted if he actually came out positive, but you never know. I also suggested he think about upgrading to 67 markers.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on June 08, 2011, 07:00:40 PM
Thanks for joining the conversation. I'm very interested in your thoughts and research.

I found a new R-L21 in the Jewish R1b project with a Jewish surname Cohen with oldest known ancestor Marcus Cohen b. 1830 in Poland. He is not yet in the R-L21 project but I encouraged him to join. His FTDNA Kit# is 2842. Non-Baltic Cluster Jewish names are very few and far between in the R-L21 project (Kimhi in the Spanish group is a notable exception, and Cohen only differs at 385 being a slightly unusual 11-16). He only has 12 markers, but he doesn't match any confirmed R-L21 even at 12.

Thanks. That's a new one. I was just checking that project a few days ago, and I didn't see him.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on June 09, 2011, 04:17:00 PM

I found a new R-L21 in the Jewish R1b project with a Jewish surname Cohen with oldest known ancestor Marcus Cohen b. 1830 in Poland. He is not yet in the R-L21 project but I encouraged him to join. His FTDNA Kit# is 2842. Non-Baltic Cluster Jewish names are very few and far between in the R-L21 project (Kimhi in the Spanish group is a notable exception, and Cohen only differs at 385 being a slightly unusual 11-16). He only has 12 markers, but he doesn't match any confirmed R-L21 even at 12.

Thanks. That's a new one. I was just checking that project a few days ago, and I didn't see him.

I've gotten him to join the R-L21 Plus Project and to put in an order for 67 markers. He is currently listed in the "ungrouped" section.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on June 09, 2011, 08:05:02 PM
Now he's in the Poland category.

Thanks for recruiting him!


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on June 14, 2011, 10:14:42 PM
Is FTDNA offering a test for L583 yet?

I know they found it via the WTY, but when will it be available for general order?

 I checked and no test is available yet. Perhaps in a month or so would be my guess, based on their turnaround for offering new tests.

Well, they are two weeks early. As of today (or maybe yesterday) a test for R-L583 is now available from FTDNA. I think I will order one, and will try to recruit my cluster buddies too also test.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on June 17, 2011, 06:27:34 PM
Is FTDNA offering a test for L583 yet?

I know they found it via the WTY, but when will it be available for general order?

 I checked and no test is available yet. Perhaps in a month or so would be my guess, based on their turnaround for offering new tests.

Well, they are two weeks early. As of today (or maybe yesterday) a test for R-L583 is now available from FTDNA. I think I will order one, and will try to recruit my cluster buddies too also test.
I am aware of at least four in the cluster that have ordered L583, and at least two others that are not it the cluster that have also ordered a test. Results probably not back until August 1st.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on July 06, 2011, 11:05:32 PM
I am aware of at least four in the cluster that have ordered L583, and at least two others that are not it the cluster that have also ordered a test. Results probably not back until August 1st.

Prager in the Baltic Cluster just showed up as negative for L583. He was GD 2 at 25 markers to me, but way off at 67. Guess we will have to wait to see if others in the cluster come up positive. Not aware of any others outside the cluster who are L583+.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on July 09, 2011, 02:02:40 AM
I am aware of at least four in the cluster that have ordered L583, and at least two others that are not it the cluster that have also ordered a test. Results probably not back until August 1st.

Prager in the Baltic Cluster just showed up as negative for L583. He was GD 2 at 25 markers to me, but way off at 67. Guess we will have to wait to see if others in the cluster come up positive. Not aware of any others outside the cluster who are L583+.

Some additional L583 results have come in and it looks like L583 is not going to be a Baltic Cluster SNP identifier. Here is what I see listed in the R-L21 Plus Project SNPs:

  - Kit #196158 L583- (North England)
  - Kit #9875 L583- (Daniel)
  - Kit  #63127 L583- (Templeton)
  - Kit #2842 L583- (Cohen)
  - Kit #99631 l583- (Prago in Baltic Cluster)
  - Kit #151577 L583- (Kabo in Baltic Cluster)
  - Kit #201644 L583+ (Burde in Baltic Cluster)
  - Kit #193834 L583+ (Yurzditsky in Baltic Cluster)

I am disappointed only one Baltic Cluster member has tested positive, but at least I'm not all by myself anymore.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on August 03, 2011, 01:22:51 AM
One more L583- result came in from a Baltic Cluster member, making the score two positive and three negative. Makes me think L583 is tied only to R-L21 Ashkenazi Levites, but that is just my guess.

  - Kit #193834 L583+ (Yurzditsky)
  - Kit #201644 L583+ (Burde)
  - Kit #99631   L583-  (Prago)
  - Kit #151577 L583-  (Kabo)
  - Kit #195581 L583-  (Lipson)
 
Not sure I will be able to get anyone else in the Baltic Cluster to test.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Jdean on August 03, 2011, 05:20:02 AM
One more L583- result came in from a Baltic Cluster member, making the score two positive and three negative. Makes me think L583 is tied only to R-L21 Ashkenazi Levites, but that is just my guess.

  - Kit #193834 L583+ (Yurzditsky)
  - Kit #201644 L583+ (Burde)
  - Kit #99631   L583-  (Prago)
  - Kit #151577 L583-  (Kabo)
  - Kit #195581 L583-  (Lipson)
 
Not sure I will be able to get anyone else in the Baltic Cluster to test.

At least it's not private which is what happens with a lot of SNPs found in WTY. What's the GD between those positive ?


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on August 03, 2011, 12:20:53 PM
One more L583- result came in from a Baltic Cluster member, making the score two positive and three negative. Makes me think L583 is tied only to R-L21 Ashkenazi Levites, but that is just my guess.

  - Kit #193834 L583+ (Yurzditsky)
  - Kit #201644 L583+ (Burde)
  - Kit #99631   L583-  (Prago)
  - Kit #151577 L583-  (Kabo)
  - Kit #195581 L583-  (Lipson)
 

At least it's not private which is what happens with a lot of SNPs found in WTY. What's the GD between those positive ?

GD is 3 at 37 markers, which is how many markers exist for Burde. I don't know if this is different enough to ever get L583 onto the ISOGG tree. There are no known existing family relationships. It would be nice to uncover a third positive somewhere.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on August 16, 2011, 02:57:37 PM
One more L583- result came in from a Baltic Cluster member, making the score two positive and three negative. Makes me think L583 is tied only to R-L21 Ashkenazi Levites, but that is just my guess.

  - Kit #193834 L583+ (Yurzditsky)
  - Kit #201644 L583+ (Burde)
  - Kit #99631   L583-  (Prago)
  - Kit #151577 L583-  (Kabo)
  - Kit #195581 L583-  (Lipson)
 

At least it's not private which is what happens with a lot of SNPs found in WTY. What's the GD between those positive ?

GD is 3 at 37 markers, which is how many markers exist for Burde. I don't know if this is different enough to ever get L583 onto the ISOGG tree. There are no known existing family relationships. It would be nice to uncover a third positive somewhere.

Burde got his 67 marker test back, and we match exactly on 38-67 so still GD of 3 at 67 markers. The interesting thing is that he has a closer match (than me) at 65/67 markers with someone else, who I also match but at 63/67. We have convinced this person to test L583 and encourage to also join the R-L21 Plus Project to get put into the Baltic Cluster. Who knows, might be a third L583+ discovery...


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: OConnor on August 17, 2011, 12:52:52 AM
Perhaps the snp is not as stable as hoped ??

I have yet to hear any word from FTDNA's review of mine, and my second cousin's results.

I am R-L159.2+ and he tested R-L159.2-

we are a 36/37 match


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on August 17, 2011, 02:50:51 AM
Perhaps the snp is not as stable as hoped ??

I think SNP L583 is stable. Here is something interesting I had not paid attention to until tonight, now that I've gotten a look at the markers for this new potential L583 person - the three of us are the only ones in the Baltic Cluster who have WAMH modal value 444=12. All others in the Baltic Cluster who have tested 67 markers are off-modal 13, including the two that tested negative for L583 (Prager and Kabo). Maybe having value 12 for DYS 444 might be key to who may be positive. Also interesting is that Thierry (of Chateau-Thierry fame) also has 444=12. Maybe the Baltic Cluster isn't really a cluster. I'm having a real hard time believing L583 is only a couple hundred years old.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 17, 2011, 02:58:15 AM
I think there is an easy explanation:
1)   all these Jewish R-L21 descend from a single person
2)   this person lived a few centuries ago
3)   as they have a cluster with many rare data, it is open the problem as when this person introgressed in the Jewish pool
4)   L583 is a private SNP for Yurzditsky and Burde, who are the closest amongst these individuals
5)   we can reconstruct the tree of this descent by using CDYa,b and it is worth only amongst these close persons, because like every marker mutates backwards and forwards. Mutations in other markers with a slow mutating rate could be used for creating some subclasters.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on August 17, 2011, 03:35:07 AM
I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -

388=11
392=14
459b=9
464c=15

Opinions?

Hey, Rich... here is your original thread post. The potential third person of the L583+ club is not 464c=15, but rather 464c=16. Yes, I know, it's close and maybe a backward mutation, but it certainly breaks your original off-modal definition. I tend to agree with Maliclavelli about a single person spawning Baltic Cluster Jewish R-L21s somewhere in the past, but maybe this originator goes back much farther than we (or A. Klyosov) think and age of L583 is older as well.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 17, 2011, 06:42:29 AM
Dear “seferhabahir”,
who knows me knows that I have always fought against those who calculate the mutation rate like Klyosov, Nordtvedt, Vizachero (if he somewhere is always thinking to this stuff). This method could be worth for a short period, but not for a long one. The recent case of the hg. G found in prehistoric France demonstrates that for 5000 years ago the mutation rate should be multiplied for at least 2.5. For this I said in my previous posting: “as they have a cluster with many rare data, it is open the problem as when this person introgressed the Jewish pool”. I cannot exclude that it entered Palestine before the Diaspora.
Certainly it is a little strange that many of these Jewish lines (above all Ashkenazic) descend from a single person with markers values out of the modal but none of the other Jews demonstrates to descend from that ancestor. We don’t find this either for this R-L21, nor for the G2c and many others. For this I have written in the past that these introgressions happened mostly in Medieval Italy or the Rhine Valley and the Ashkenazic Jews continue some haplogroups and some haplotypes which went extinct in the place of origin. But for being sure of this, some trace we should find and this is what I am searching for before I am sure of my ideas.
This Jewish R-L21 cluster is very characterized:
DYS388=11
DYS392=14
DYS459b=9 (this less characterising of the others)
DYS464=15,15,15,17
DYS590=9
DYS487=14
It isn’t a few.
We can hypothesize something about the history of this haplogroup. Certainly it arose in North West Europe from an R-P312 and it is very ancient. It lacks completely in Italy (I think having demonstrated that the few cases found were of French descent or probably NPEs amongst Italian migrants in America). There is an unique case, that of Argiedude, but it is suspect it too. I can say, after so many persons tested, that it lacks completely in Italy, and it also demonstrates that all those migrations to Italy after the Roman Empire Fall didn’t change the Italian DNA set up. For this I’d be inclined to think that the introgression happened in the Rhine Valley or in the Baltic Region. It is in fact a little bit believable that it entered Palestine and not Italy during so many centuries of Roman Empire.



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 17, 2011, 07:18:21 AM
The Baltic Cluster is definitely a cluster; it stands out, easily visble amid the crowd of other haplotypes with its unique off-modal marker values. An individual cluster member who is off by one or two here or there doesn't alter that.

And I think Klyosov is right in his assessment of its age and probable origin.

And I think Gioiello is wrong about L21 being completely absent from Italy. It's obviously there: we have Italian L21s. One has to start making excuses - French immigrants, American NPEs - to explain them away.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 17, 2011, 08:34:39 AM
I have found on SMGF a person, unfortunately anonymous, who probably belongs to this cluster and is linked with these Jews: KQ7G4.
The closest to him (and to the other Jews) is probably the Brazilian Alves: 5EVW9.
We can think:
1) that this is really an ancient Jewish R-L21 and this Brazilian is a Sephardic
2) that these Ashkenazic Jews are of Iberian descent and the origin of this R-L21 must be searched in Iberia, where R-L21 is present.

About the Italian R-L21 I am still waiting that Rich shows them to me. Argiedude is linked to a Calloway family and I hadn't any reply to my request of deeper tests.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on August 17, 2011, 10:46:51 AM
The Baltic Cluster is definitely a cluster; it stands out, easily visble amid the crowd of other haplotypes with its unique off-modal marker values. An individual cluster member who is off by one or two here or there doesn't alter that.

I know it's a real cluster. It jumps out much more clearly than most of the things in R-L21. I was really hoping to find a defining SNP for it (and L583 isn't it). My "maybe not" comment was tongue-in-cheek.  I did take the liberty to tell this person with 464a,b,c,d = 15-15-16-17 that they were definitely in the cluster, and would be allowed into the R-L21 project even though they have not yet tested for L-21.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 18, 2011, 05:20:56 AM
From ySearch data I think that these persons belong to this Jewish clade:

KQ7G4 Anonymous R-L21
2Y8VJ Millstein
534VG Kabo
9HPG7 Yurzditsky
B2BNR Lewis
BV6P8 Brody
D6T5T Kirchler
EK2YT Bloom
RGGJ8 Wissoker
SJFHN Marcus
T8A6N Prager


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 18, 2011, 06:24:41 AM
All these persons have in common at least 25 markers. Calculating the mutations and using a method of mine we have:

DYS19=0,001548 (x1)
DYS385b=0,002800 (x1)
DYS458=0,005804 (x2)
DYS449=0,006464 (x2)
DYS464d=0,002790 (x4)

0,040044:10=4004

1000000:4004=249

(11x249):275=9,96

I think that all these persons have a common ancestor 10 generations ago. I use 32 years for generation, then about 320 years ago, or, better, 320 years before the last generation tested.

This person likely had these values:
13,24,14,11,11-14,12,11,11,13,14,29,17,9-9,11,11,25,15,19,29,15-15-15-17.



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 18, 2011, 07:37:52 AM
About the Italian R-L21 I am still waiting that Rich shows them to me. Argiedude is linked to a Calloway family and I hadn't any reply to my request of deeper tests.

Last I checked, argiedude had NO close matches. Saying he is "linked to a Calloway family"
is one thing, proving it is another. As I recall, at one point you were saying his closest match was a Richter (or something like that) from Germany, but that "match" wasn't close either.

We have an Italy category at the R-L21 Plus Project. There they are.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on August 18, 2011, 01:10:14 PM

I think that all these persons have a common ancestor 10 generations ago. I use 32 years for generation, then about 320 years ago, or, better, 320 years before the last generation tested.

This person likely had these values:
13,24,14,11,11-14,12,11,11,13,14,29,17,9-9,11,11,25,15,29,15-15-15-17.


All these persons are obviously related, but I do not think the common ancestor is within the last 300-400 years. There are no known family relationships or close geographic ties (no easily identifiable common names or towns) within the last 200 or so years. I would think an ancestor would be at least as old as Klyosov's 1350 date.

The more relevant concern is how to reconcile that some of the cluster has a known SNP and known Levite status, and that parts of the cluster that do not have that SNP have no known Levite tradition. In Eastern European Jewish tradition, Levite status is paternal hereditary, abides by halakhic (legal) concerns, is not easily lost or forgotten, nor is it created out of mere desire (I will leave aside Khazar R1a issues, they are not relevant to R-L21 discussion).

The newly uncovered L583 SNP and Levite split within the cluster is clearly important, and should be taken into consideration along with STR mutation calculations to make sense of how old a common ancestor would be. Leaving out NPEs (always a possibility, I would think that Levite tradition within the last 1000 years is probably as reliable as a SNP.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 18, 2011, 02:07:30 PM
I have no problem to explain all this by an introgression in the Jewish pool. Perhaps you know that for supporting this I had two banishments from Rootsweb and from “forums-dna”, and the case isn’t unique: as I have said before, there are many similar cases: G2c, my R1b1a2a and also R1b1a2 of my cousin very close to many Ashkanazic Jews, many mtDNA, like the same K1a1b1a which descends from my “Tuscan” K1a1b1, and many others.
The true problem for me is the fact that this haplotype has many mutations which differentiated it from all the other R-L21-s. For this I haven’t excluded before that it is Jewish from so long, even from before the Diaspora. But why no other Jews is linked with this haplotype except these closely related persons?
We can think to a bottleneck, from where only a few persons survived, but this can be worth also for the other European peoples.
This is the true mystery, I think, of this case.
About Klyosov, had he really calculated a MRCA for these persons to 1350 years ago? Then I don’t understand how he dilates and restricts the times as he likes.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on August 18, 2011, 02:52:03 PM

About Klyosov, had he really calculated a MRCA for these persons to 1350 years ago? Then I don’t understand how he dilates and restricts the times as he likes.


No, not 1350 years ago. It is 1350 C.E. when the Bubonic Plague hit Europe and there was eastward push into Poland and Lithuania by Jews who survived the plague and subsequent pogroms. This was a bottleneck (as was WWII). If there were more L21 Jews around to test, there would probably be more variation within the haplotype.

I still need to better understand Levite and non-Levite differentiation. Maybe there was introgression a thousand years ago (some have proposed this was to get admitted to the Narbonne Talmudic Academy), but then where are the non-Jews that would share the haplotype. I just don't see any. Strange that they don't show up. All my matches are Jewish and conform closely to Baltic Cluster haplotype(s).


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 18, 2011, 07:05:41 PM
Yes, the true question is “but then where are the non-Jews that would share the haplotype”? Not only the Jews (that there aren’t) of course. This is the mystery, and it is the same with the other haplogroups and haplotypes I cited before. The same for K1a1b1a, which has at least 3 mutations respect my K1a1b1. I solved this problem saying that Ashkenazi Jews descend from about 25,000 persons that migrated from Italy to the Rhine Valley probably before 1000 AD, and they became 10,000,000 before the WWII, then so many meioses and so many mutations. That this could be an explanation, also for the other haplogroups (Y and mt), could be demonstrated by the fact that R-L21 is typically Western European, if the same Italy lacks completely of it, beyond what Rich thinks.
Re: Klyosov I could say that my calculation isn’t on average, but pretends to be exact, and if I say 10 is 10 and not 20. Also in the first half of 17th century there was the Thirty Years War and the population of Germany was decimated. Alsace was peopled by Tyroleans like my friend Gabennesch, who is an E1b1a8, an African living in the Alps, even though he has now two SNPs not present in Africa, and my theory that he and his linked persons are here from thousands of years becomes likely. Hope you find these SNPs too.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 19, 2011, 02:11:17 PM
Why haven’t you put in your “Baltic Cluster” Mednick, who is unclassified in the “Jewish R1b Project”?
He belongs clearly to this cluster and has some interesting mutations:
DYS391=12 from 11
DYS458=16 from 17
RecLOH in YCAII: 19-19 from 19-23
DYS534=16 from 15

733 MEDNICK, Kamenets-Podolski, Ukraine Ukraine R1b1a2 13 24 14 12 11-14 12 11 11 13 14 29 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-15-17 11 11 19-19 15 15 18 18 39-41 11 12 11 9 15-16 9 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 13 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12




Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on August 19, 2011, 08:46:53 PM
Why haven’t you put in your “Baltic Cluster” Mednick, who is unclassified in the “Jewish R1b Project”?
He belongs clearly to this cluster and has some interesting mutations

I know about him and he is in the spreadsheet I personally keep on this cluster. I guess he has not chosen to join the R-L21 Project. He is also in the Ukraine West project, and as Rich pointed out in 2009, he's from Kamenets-Podolsk, Ukraine (same as Rich's wife's maternal side and same as my mtDNA maternal side). This area was a center of the early Chassidic movement started by the Baal Shem Tov, and a major area of eastern European Jewish life.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 20, 2011, 03:13:45 AM
That the introgression could have happened in South France it is an hypothesis to take in consideration. This is the haplotype of Rodgers (ySearch: 23J69):
13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,11,13,14,29,17,8-9,11,11,25,15,19,29,15-15-15-17
   
It differs from the reconstructed haplotype of this “Baltic cluster” only in DYS388 (12 for 11) and in DYS459a (8 for 9). We don’t know if he is an R-L21, but I bet he is.



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 20, 2011, 04:39:57 AM
The MRCA between Mednick and Rodgers is:

DYS391=0,003155
DYS388=0,000379
DYS458=0,005804
DYS459a=0,001176

0,010514:4=0,002628

1000000:2628=380.4

(4x380.4):50=30.4
30.4x32=972.8 years ago.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on November 09, 2011, 01:18:14 PM
GD is 3 at 37 markers, which is how many markers exist for Burde. I don't know if this is different enough to ever get L583 onto the ISOGG tree. There are no known existing family relationships. It would be nice to uncover a third positive somewhere.

Burde got his 67 marker test back, and we match exactly on 38-67 so still GD of 3 at 67 markers. The interesting thing is that he has a closer match (than me) at 65/67 markers with someone else, who I also match but at 63/67. We have convinced this person to test L583 and encourage to also join the R-L21 Plus Project to get put into the Baltic Cluster. Who knows, might be a third L583+ discovery...

The third potential L583+ person just came back L583- even though the three of us matched exactly on the 38-67 STR markers and this person was GD of 2 to Burde and GD of 4 with me. Was hoping to find a third L583+ but not to be. Really would be nice to find a SNP upstream of L583 that would encompass the Baltic (1111EE) cluster. I'm sure there is one.  Now I'll have to think about testing more of the new Z SNPs, since Z253 did not pan out.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 09, 2011, 04:11:26 PM
GD is 3 at 37 markers, which is how many markers exist for Burde. I don't know if this is different enough to ever get L583 onto the ISOGG tree. There are no known existing family relationships. It would be nice to uncover a third positive somewhere.

Burde got his 67 marker test back, and we match exactly on 38-67 so still GD of 3 at 67 markers. The interesting thing is that he has a closer match (than me) at 65/67 markers with someone else, who I also match but at 63/67. We have convinced this person to test L583 and encourage to also join the R-L21 Plus Project to get put into the Baltic Cluster. Who knows, might be a third L583+ discovery...

The third potential L583+ person just came back L583- even though the three of us matched exactly on the 38-67 STR markers and this person was GD of 2 to Burde and GD of 4 with me. Was hoping to find a third L583+ but not to be. Really would be nice to find a SNP upstream of L583 that would encompass the Baltic (1111EE) cluster. I'm sure there is one.  Now I'll have to think about testing more of the new Z SNPs, since Z253 did not pan out.
Thank you for the update.  Yes, it'd be nice to mark 1111EE with an SNP, and get another SNP above it that links it into L21 with a little more resolution.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on December 30, 2011, 10:03:50 PM
I have a new 25 marker match with a 1 GD, and Eastern European ancestors. I have suggested that he consider testing for R-L21, R-L583, and additional markers. We'll see. Always interesting to see a new Baltic Cluster person.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on January 02, 2012, 05:45:02 PM
I have a new 25 marker match with a 1 GD, and Eastern European ancestors. I have suggested that he consider testing for R-L21, R-L583, and additional markers. We'll see. Always interesting to see a new Baltic Cluster person.

Apparently, this person has more marker tests in the queue. His DYS413 values apparently are 21-22, while every other Baltic Cluster member who tested this marker is 23-23. This seems pretty strange. Would it imply that the Baltic Cluster is older than the previous estimates of only 600-700 years ago? This would be consistent with my thought that that beginnings of 1111EE are older.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on January 29, 2012, 02:14:54 AM
Mike,

I think the following two kits should go into your R-L21 spreadsheet. Neither kit has tested for L21 so they are not in the L21 project. However, these kits have both tested to 67 markers, and if they are not members of the Baltic Cluster I will eat my kippah.

169961    [No Name]     R1b1a2    (in the R-L21 WTY Project)

   13    24    14    11    11-14    12    11    11    13    14    29    17    9-9    11    11    25    15    19    29    15-15-16-17    11    11    19-23    15    15    18    18    39-40    11    12    11    9    15-16    9    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    12    15    8    12    22    20    13    12    11    14    11    11    12    12                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
 
220214    Freeman    R1b1a2    (in the Jewish R1b Project)

   13    24    14    11    11-14    12    11    11    13    14    29    17    9-9    11    11    25    15    19    29    15-15-15-16    11    10    19-23    15    15    18    18    39-41    11    12    11    9    15-16    9    10    10    8    10    10    12    21-22    16    10    12    12    15    8    13    22    20    13    12    11    14    11    11    12    11                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 29, 2012, 07:44:32 AM
This thread is lasting from so long and I should read it again from the beginning. Searching for this haplotype on SMGF I finished to find some persons close to it, to extract them, to put them on ySearch, and to realize after that I had already put them. Of course I have deleted them, leaving only one sample for each person. This I wrote in the past: “I have found on SMGF a person, unfortunately anonymous, who probably belongs to this cluster and is linked with these Jews: KQ7G4.
The closest to him (and to the other Jews) is probably the Brazilian Alves: 5EVW9.
We can think:
1) that this is really an ancient Jewish R-L21 and this Brazilian is a Sephardic
2) that these Ashkenazic Jews are of Iberian descent and the origin of this R-L21 must be searched in Iberia, where R-L21 is present.” Nothing new, but amongst the closest to this haplotype, but with some mutations, I have found the Dutch Groeneboom (ySearch 3DDZA). What to say after the last findings?
That we may deplore that KQ7GA is anonymous, but it is very likable he is a Jew, otherwise he should have given us important indications about the origin of this haplotype.
Now, also after I have demonstrated to a Mexican R-P312/Z196 presupposed of Jewish origin who asked my expertise on 23andme that he is of Iberian origin (perhaps a Jew converted but anyway genetically introgressed from Iberians) and after that we are realizing that probably R-L21 was born in Iberia from some R-P312 come from Italy (this is my thinking), I am inclined to think that also these Jewish R-L21 come from there. The close matches of Alves and of Groeneboom (who could be a Jew converted, but anyway of Sephardic origin if so) and the imperfect match of the sensible values (DYS388, DYS392, etc.) let me think that that is the area of origin.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 29, 2012, 12:17:00 PM
220214    Freeman    R1b1a2    (in the Jewish R1b Project)

   13    24    14    11    11-14    12    11    11    13    14    29    17    9-9    11    11    25    15    19    29    15-15-15-16    11    10    19-23    15    15    18    18    39-41    11    12    11    9    15-16    9    10    10    8    10    10    12    21-22    16    10    12    12    15    8    13    22    20    13    12    11    14    11    11    12    11   

See ySearch 9NR3T: Hyman. Perhaps he is the same person.                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
 
 
 
 


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on January 29, 2012, 12:26:02 PM
220214    Freeman    R1b1a2    (in the Jewish R1b Project)
   

See ySearch 9NR3T: Hyman. Perhaps he is the same person.                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


Yes, this is the same person. Thank you for spotting this.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on January 29, 2012, 01:03:38 PM
This I wrote in the past: “I have found on SMGF a person, unfortunately anonymous, who probably belongs to this cluster and is linked with these Jews: KQ7G4.
The closest to him (and to the other Jews) is probably the Brazilian Alves: 5EVW9.
We can think:
1) that this is really an ancient Jewish R-L21 and this Brazilian is a Sephardic
2) that these Ashkenazic Jews are of Iberian descent and the origin of this R-L21 must be searched in Iberia, where R-L21 is present.” Nothing new, but amongst the closest to this haplotype, but with some mutations, I have found the Dutch Groeneboom (ySearch 3DDZA). What to say after the last findings?
That we may deplore that KQ7GA is anonymous, but it is very likable he is a Jew, otherwise he should have given us important indications about the origin of this haplotype.
Now, also after I have demonstrated to a Mexican R-P312/Z196 presupposed of Jewish origin who asked my expertise on 23andme that he is of Iberian origin (perhaps a Jew converted but anyway genetically introgressed from Iberians) and after that we are realizing that probably R-L21 was born in Iberia from some R-P312 come from Italy (this is my thinking), I am inclined to think that also these Jewish R-L21 come from there. The close matches of Alves and of Groeneboom (who could be a Jew converted, but anyway of Sephardic origin if so) and the imperfect match of the sensible values (DYS388, DYS392, etc.) let me think that that is the area of origin.


I agree that KQ7G4 is in all likelihood Jewish. But I am doubtful that anyone lacking DYS388=11 is in this cluster. Some of the cluster members have indicated they maybe have a Sephardic past, but I think this is conjecture.

As more (apparently fairly old) SNPs downstream of L21 are found that contain large parts of L21, and I continue to test negative for all of them, it seems that 1111EE will continue to be L21** and likely as old or older than these newly found L21 subclades.

I wouldn't rule out a conversion event in the past, but it could have been early in Jewish history (not Middle Ages), maybe when sizable portions of the pre-Christian Roman Empire accepted Judaism. The lack of L21 in the middle east seems to say this is unlikely to be an ancient Israelite line, especially when I compare to my maternal grandfather J2a* which has signs of Fertile Crescent beginnings.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 29, 2012, 01:38:50 PM
I have looked at the SNPs you have been tested on FTDNA, but perhaps you have been tested for other SNPs if you say to be R-L21**. Have you been tested also for L459? If so, you are negative also for Z246, L720, S190, L371. Then probably your clade is one of the most ancient after L21, and the unique place where it may be born I think it is Spain. Perhaps you know that I haven’t yet dismiss the possibility that also R-L21 were born in Italy. We have some ancient haplotype, like that of Argiedude, and others in the Lake District of North Italy, but there should be some proof. About the J2a* of your maternal grandfather I should see his haplotype.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 29, 2012, 02:03:32 PM
3   14   13   29   24   11   13   13   11,14   12   11   15   19   15   17   23   11   >>
1 of 255   Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil [European]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Latin America
1 of 384   Ravenna, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 1041   United States [European American]   Eurasian - European   North America

We cannot be sure that this haplotype on YHRD has something to do with yours: DYS392 is 13 and we haven’t DYS388. Anyway these are the persons found. Here Italy is dominant, taking present what I have always said about Brazil (above all Southern one) and the American we don’t know where he could have come from.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on January 29, 2012, 03:40:16 PM
I have looked at the SNPs you have been tested on FTDNA, but perhaps you have been tested for other SNPs if you say to be R-L21**. Have you been tested also for L459? If so, you are negative also for Z246, L720, S190, L371. Then probably your clade is one of the most ancient after L21, and the unique place where it may be born I think it is Spain.

My WTY results indicate L459+ and L371-. Since I'm DF21-, then I'm negative also for Z246 and L720. Presumably also negative for S190. There is one more L21 kit in the WTY pipeline (kit #37201 from England) with whom I have a GD of 17 at 67 markers. Will have to wait to see what new SNPs if any show up from that.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 30, 2012, 09:04:33 AM
I don't know if anyone has noted this before and now I have no time to look at it, but it is very importanty in this cluster DYS487=14, pretty always 13 in R1b, except in R-U152. This is a very slow mutating marker.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Richard Rocca on January 30, 2012, 11:12:26 AM
I don't know if anyone has noted this before and now I have no time to look at it, but it is very importanty in this cluster DYS487=14, pretty always 13 in R1b, except in R-U152. This is a very slow mutating marker.

DYS487=13 is modal in U152 as well.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 30, 2012, 12:18:25 PM
DYS487=13 is modal in U152 as well.
I am at my school and haven't my data at hands, but it seemed to me that the Jewish R-L4 were 14 at this markers. It is a little bit strange that Jews have this value, of course by chance, but it could be a sign of ancientness of these subclades.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Richard Rocca on January 30, 2012, 12:22:34 PM
DYS487=13 is modal in U152 as well.
I am at my school and haven't my data at hands, but it seemed to me that the Jewish R-L4 were 14 at this markers. It is a little bit strange that Jews have this value, of course by chance, but it could be a sign of ancientness of these subclades.

I think you are confusing it with DYS492=14 which is the modal of all U152+ Z56+ folks, including the L4 group which is below Z56.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on January 30, 2012, 01:08:51 PM
I don't know if anyone has noted this before and now I have no time to look at it, but it is very importanty in this cluster DYS487=14, pretty always 13 in R1b, except in R-U152. This is a very slow mutating marker.

Yes, I think several have noticed this. Off-modal values for 1111EE include the following:

DYS 388     12 > 11
DYS 439     12 > 11
DYS 392     13 > 14
DYS 459b   10 >  9
DYS 464c   17 > 15
DYS 456     16 > 15
DYS 442     12 > 11
DYS 590      8 >  9
DYS 487     13 > 14


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 30, 2012, 02:13:29 PM
I think you are confusing it with DYS492=14 which is the modal of all U152+ Z56+ folks, including the L4 group which is below Z56.
Rich, of course I cannot have mistook DYS487 with DYS492. This is an affront to my intelligence and to my memory (I have always used my memory rather than my papers). Not only DYS487=14 is present in an R1b1c4 (V88+) Possible V69+ from Europe (FTDNA: 86986), but also in ySearch 42567 (Khusnutdinov, like the famous Elza Khusnutdinova), probably a Bashkir, who is R-U152/DYS492=14, and this raises the problem of these Eastern R-U152, because to have this very rare mutation could be a sign of ancientness, and, said between us, all the calculations (also that of Fehér) which don’t take in consideration that mutations happen around the modal, I think are worth nothing.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 30, 2012, 02:26:14 PM
Yes, I think several have noticed this. Off-modal values for 1111EE include the following:

DYS 388     12 > 11
DYS 439     12 > 11
DYS 392     13 > 14
DYS 459b   10 >  9
DYS 464c   17 > 15
DYS 456     16 > 15
DYS 442     12 > 11
DYS 590      8 >  9
DYS 487     13 > 14

Seferhabahir, I feel myself like a "vox clamans in deserto"/qol be-midbar. I have said many times that the "modal" is an artifice, only the values most common amongst the haplotypes survived, but that it hasn't anything reliable. These ancient haplotypes, like yours, could be the rare survivors of ancient haplotypes and some of theirs values could be the original ones and not a mutations and the ancient true modal should be reconstructed taking in consideration also these haplotypes. I have said that it isn't said that my DYS19=15 (R-L23+) is a mutation from the presumed modal 14 but could be the original value and so on.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 30, 2012, 02:28:46 PM
For this all the calculations of Nordtvedt, Klyosov, Fehér and all the others are an "impressive waste of time".


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 30, 2012, 02:34:17 PM
I have demonstrated this about the G2a found in ancient France. That ancient haplotype has demonstrated that the modal presupposed was wrong.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Richard Rocca on January 30, 2012, 05:57:35 PM
I think you are confusing it with DYS492=14 which is the modal of all U152+ Z56+ folks, including the L4 group which is below Z56.
Rich, of course I cannot have mistook DYS487 with DYS492. This is an affront to my intelligence and to my memory (I have always used my memory rather than my papers). Not only DYS487=14 is present in an R1b1c4 (V88+) Possible V69+ from Europe (FTDNA: 86986), but also in ySearch 42567 (Khusnutdinov, like the famous Elza Khusnutdinova), probably a Bashkir, who is R-U152/DYS492=14, and this raises the problem of these Eastern R-U152, because to have this very rare mutation could be a sign of ancientness, and, said between us, all the calculations (also that of Fehér) which don’t take in consideration that mutations happen around the modal, I think are worth nothing.

If you took it as as an insult, it was not intended to be. You should not get so easily offended.

I don't know what you mean exactly about the "most ancient", but I can tell you without a doubt that the first man with the U152 mutation was DYS492=12 and DYS487=13 because not only are those the modals for U152, but also for U152's father (P312), great-grandfather (L11), all of its siblings (L21, Z196, DF19) and its cousin (U106).


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on January 31, 2012, 01:13:21 AM
If you took it as as an insult, it was not intended to be. You should not get so easily offended.
I don't know what you mean exactly about the "most ancient", but I can tell you without a doubt that the first man with the U152 mutation was DYS492=12 and DYS487=13 because not only are those the modals for U152, but also for U152's father (P312), great-grandfather (L11), all of its siblings (L21, Z196, DF19) and its cousin (U106).
Of course I didn't take it as an insult, and not by you, whom I consider a friend. You are right in what you say, but probably the problems raised by me should be considered. The problem of the haplotype of G2a found 7000 years ago in France for instance. Probably my theories are more appropriate for markers not so slow mutating ones. And anyway this DYS487=14, if is modal for this "Baltic cluster" of R-L21, could be modal also for some cluster of R-U152/Z56.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on July 17, 2012, 03:30:35 AM

I have a recent 63/67 match that I encouraged to test for L21 (and also for L583, since his surname indicates probable Levite ancestry). He just came back as L21+, and should be joining the R-L21 Plus Project soon so he can be the newest member of the Baltic Cluster. I don't know whether he has gotten his L583 result back, but I guess as soon as he joins we will be able to see his SNP results. I'm hopeful about L583+ given the GD of 4, his surname and also the fact that he is DYS444=12, which I believe is a key Baltic Cluster STR marker for L583, as only Burde and I seem to have it.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on July 17, 2012, 05:59:26 AM

I have a recent 63/67 match that I encouraged to test for L21 (and also for L583, since his surname indicates probable Levite ancestry). He just came back as L21+, and should be joining the R-L21 Plus Project soon so he can be the newest member of the Baltic Cluster. I don't know whether he has gotten his L583 result back, but I guess as soon as he joins we will be able to see his SNP results. I'm hopeful about L583+ given the GD of 4, his surname and also the fact that he is DYS444=12, which I believe is a key Baltic Cluster STR marker for L583, as only Burde and I seem to have it.

Cool!

Thanks for encouraging him to join the project.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on July 17, 2012, 11:52:32 AM
I have a recent 63/67 match that I encouraged to test for L21 (and also for L583, since his surname indicates probable Levite ancestry). He just came back as L21+, and should be joining the R-L21 Plus Project soon so he can be the newest member of the Baltic Cluster. I don't know whether he has gotten his L583 result back, but I guess as soon as he joins we will be able to see his SNP results. I'm hopeful about L583+ given the GD of 4, his surname and also the fact that he is DYS444=12, which I believe is a key Baltic Cluster STR marker for L583, as only Burde and I seem to have it.


Cool!

Thanks for encouraging him to join the project.

I looked on the draft FTDNA tree and clicked on L583, and lo an behold, there are now THREE postive tests for it, so that means he came back an L583+ as I had expected. I don't think we could ever get it on the ISOGG tree given the close GDs amongst all three, but I think you could consider breaking us out into an Ashkenazi Levite sub-cluster of the Baltic Cluster if you were so inclined (unless it breaks your project's lettering system somehow).

This is great stuff (at least for me), because now we have a definitive SNP that differentiates the Levite ancestries from the rest of the Baltic Cluster (several of whom have tested L583- and have not indicated any Levite tradition). I'm still waiting on a result for DF49 to see if I am really DF13** but I don't if think that changes anything here.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 23, 2012, 04:22:22 AM
I don’t know if someone has spoken before of the case of Thiery (ySearch DPVGV) as a possible link with the “Baltic cluster”, i.e. a link of the “Baltic cluster” with an introgression happened in France in the Jewish gene pool.
He satisfies 7 out of the 9 conditions posed by Seferhabahir:

Yes, I think several have noticed this. Off-modal values for 1111EE include the following:

DYS 388     12 > 11
DYS 439     12 > 11
DYS 392     13 > 14
DYS 459b   10 >  9
DYS 464c   17 > 15
DYS 456     16 > 15
DYS 487     13 > 14

not these two:
DYS 442     12 > 11
DYS 590      8 >  9
where he has the ancestral modal.

This of course is very important to determine a clade and a witness of the haplotype of origin. But Thiery has also many weird values as to the “Baltic cluster”:

DYS391= 10
DYS385a=12
DYS454=12
DYS570=16 (but could justify the 17 of Prager (T8A6N) like the most ancient form as to the 18 of the others)
CDYb=39
DYS446=10
DYS511=11

But it seems to me that we have all the elements to deepen also by SNPs a possible link between Thiery and the “Baltic cluster”.



Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 23, 2012, 10:01:26 AM
I emailed Thierry via Ysearch four or five times a couple of years ago. He never answered me. I even offered him a FREE L21 test. I'm not sure he's even still alive.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on August 23, 2012, 04:01:00 PM
I emailed Thierry via Ysearch four or five times a couple of years ago. He never answered me. I even offered him a FREE L21 test. I'm not sure he's even still alive.

Where was his testing performed? I don't think it was FTDNA. If he is just a singular ysearch entry, how do we know that his values are accurate? As pointed out, there are some awfully weird values that nobody else in the 1111EE cluster seem to have.

On another issue, FTDNA told me that I must check with the R-L21 Plus Project administrator (that you would be you, Rich, I guess) to ensure that if I start up an 1111EE project it does not "overlap" with your goals. I failed to see why it would be any different than the DF21 or Z253 or 11-13 Combo projects, but maybe because I called it the DF13 1111EE Project. I decided not to further engage the help desk person on this until I checked with you. I think I confused him by using DF13 in the title.

"Thank you for submitting your application. While we appreciate your enthusiasm for leading a project, FTDNA has a firm policy against creating new projects which have overlapping themes and goals of existing projects. You will need to contact the administrator of the R-L21 Plus project in order to confirm that this project has different enough goals from your prospective project. Once you have contacted this administrator and are given the OK, please send me a copy of the email and I will create this project for you."

I figure I might have more success getting reluctant 1111EE people to join a smallish project, instead of the multi-thousand person L21 project, most of whom they would have little or no interest in. Wanna give me an OK? Then I will proceed with it.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 23, 2012, 04:56:43 PM
Where was his testing performed? I don't think it was FTDNA. If he is just a singular ysearch entry, how do we know that his values are accurate? As pointed out, there are some awfully weird values that nobody else in the 1111EE cluster seem to have.
Seferhabahir, you know that we are searching for truth and only for truth, but saying that this haplotype could be an artefact seems to me too much, and certainly that he hadn’t replied to Rich many times isn’t in favour of him, but these data seem to me completely reliable. What should I say that Mangino doesn’t answer my letter and withholds his name from the project, or the K1a1b1a in the Greek project and after in the Italian one isn’t findable? There is a French living in Canada who is close to Thiery on SMGF. Unfortunately his data are incomplete, as remain incomplete after many years those of Toniolo, a very important Italian R1b1* who could give an important support to my theories. Anyway truth will spring up at last.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: rms2 on August 23, 2012, 06:26:49 PM
I emailed Thierry via Ysearch four or five times a couple of years ago. He never answered me. I even offered him a FREE L21 test. I'm not sure he's even still alive.

Where was his testing performed? I don't think it was FTDNA. If he is just a singular ysearch entry, how do we know that his values are accurate? As pointed out, there are some awfully weird values that nobody else in the 1111EE cluster seem to have.

On another issue, FTDNA told me that I must check with the R-L21 Plus Project administrator (that you would be you, Rich, I guess) to ensure that if I start up an 1111EE project it does not "overlap" with your goals. I failed to see why it would be any different than the DF21 or Z253 or 11-13 Combo projects, but maybe because I called it the DF13 1111EE Project. I decided not to further engage the help desk person on this until I checked with you. I think I confused him by using DF13 in the title.

"Thank you for submitting your application. While we appreciate your enthusiasm for leading a project, FTDNA has a firm policy against creating new projects which have overlapping themes and goals of existing projects. You will need to contact the administrator of the R-L21 Plus project in order to confirm that this project has different enough goals from your prospective project. Once you have contacted this administrator and are given the OK, please send me a copy of the email and I will create this project for you."

I figure I might have more success getting reluctant 1111EE people to join a smallish project, instead of the multi-thousand person L21 project, most of whom they would have little or no interest in. Wanna give me an OK? Then I will proceed with it.

If you need an email from me, just send me an email. I have no problem with other L21-related projects. I don't like it when people quit the R-L21 Plus Project for offshoot projects, but that's their right, and it hasn't been much of a problem, anyway.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on May 01, 2013, 03:34:42 PM
If you need an email from me, just send me an email. I have no problem with other L21-related projects. I don't like it when people quit the R-L21 Plus Project for offshoot projects, but that's their right, and it hasn't been much of a problem, anyway.

Obviously, I haven't started an offshoot L21 Jewish Cluster Project yet. I have noticed that an Ashkenazi Levite (kit 282013) recently joined the R-L21 Plus Project and I got him to agree to test for L583, which is now on order with FTDNA.

Do I understand correctly that people who join the R-L21 Plus Project implicitly consent to have SNP tests performed on their DNA if donations are made to the project? If I donated $195 to the project, would I be able to select 5 targeted people in my cluster with 67 markers and have them tested for L583? I might want to try this, since it has been hard to get some of these folks to order on their own?


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Dubhthach on May 02, 2013, 04:38:00 AM
There is no implied consent, generally what happens is a project admin will contact the kit holder and offer a sponsored test. If the kit holder agrees then the admin can order the test without needing to go to FTDNA helpdesk.

Before hand you need an actual consent email from kit holder to send to FTDNA and they would process the order for you.

If you have for example a list of people you want to sponsor your best bet would be to get Project admin to contact them to see if they are interested in a *FREE* (emphasis) sponsored test. If they all agree then I would donate the sum to the project and let the admin proceed with ordering. Obviously if only 3 agree then you don't need to donate as much.

-Paul
(DF41+)
(Admin Ireland yDNA Project)
(Admin R-DF41 & Subclades Project)


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: seferhabahir on May 02, 2013, 12:17:17 PM
Thanks for the information. I guess there had to be some interest in the beginning to have had them join the project in the first place, but I think most may not care that much. I have had better luck with the newer testers.


Title: Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 12, 2013, 04:09:39 AM
3   14   13   29   24   11   13   13   11,14   12   11   15   19   15   17   23   11   >>
1 of 255   Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil [European]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Latin America
1 of 384   Ravenna, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 1041   United States [European American]   Eurasian - European   North America

We cannot be sure that this haplotype on YHRD has something to do with yours: DYS392 is 13 and we haven’t DYS388. Anyway these are the persons found. Here Italy is dominant, taking present what I have always said about Brazil (above all Southern one) and the American we don’t know where he could have come from.


I don’t know if seferhabahir did some progress about his ancestry and certainly this Jewish R-L21/L513 haplotype has some odd values, but this guy on YHRD seems linked: he matches 21 markers and differs only in DYS570=18 instead of 17 and DYS643=10 instead of 11. YHRD H4 should be diminished of 1 then it is =11.

1   14   13   29   24   11   14   13   11,14   12   11   15   19   15   17   23   12   17   22   13   12   17   11   >>

1 of 129   Illinois, United States [European American]   Eurasian - European   North America

These other guys could be linked. Of course a R-L21 in Ravenna is a little believable:

2   14   13   29   24   11   14   13   11,14   12   11   15   19   15   18   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 81   Porto Alegre, Brazil [European]   Eurasian - European   Latin America
1 of 384   Ravenna, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe