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Title: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on July 04, 2009, 03:30:31 PM
I know this has been discussed elsewhere before, but I hadn't read the report (http://www.cmj.hr/2009/50/3/19480023.htm) until today.

Here is the abstract:

Quote
Results For 244A, 244B, 244C samples, full autosomal DNA
profiles (15 STR markers and Amelogenin) and for 244D,
244E, 244F samples, MiniFiler profiles were produced. Ychromosome
haplotypes consisting of up to 24 STR markers
were determined and used to predict the Y-chromosome
haplogroups and compare the resulting haplotypes
with the current population. Samples 244A, 244B, 244C,
and 244D belong to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b
and
the samples 244E and 244F to haplogroup G2a. Comparison
of ancient haplotypes with the current population
yielded numerous close matches with genetic distance
bellow [sic] 2.

Conclusion Application of forensic genetics in archaeology
enables retrieving new types of information and helps
in data interpretation. The number of successfully typed
autosomal and Y-STR loci from ancient specimens in this
study is one of the largest published so far for aged samples.

What I found really interesting was the following.

Quote
Individuals found in the western
part of the chamber (244A, 244B, and 244C) lied [sic] straight
on the back, body-by-body, and all 3 men were buried
with swords, spears, shields, and spurs, like heavily armored
mounted warriors
(9). Historic value of the artifacts
found in the grave 244 makes this place one of the richest
Bavarian burial sites from the late-Merowig period (9). The
grave 244 dates to the period around 670 AD.[page 287]

. . . Samples 244A, 244B, 244C, and 244D belonged
to the Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b . . . [page 290]

Ergolding, Bayern, Germany (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ergolding,+Germany&sll=38.2005,-77.518837&sspn=0.008887,0.022681&ie=UTF8&ll=48.57479,12.172852&spn=7.662045,23.225098&z=6&iwloc=A)


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 05, 2009, 01:03:07 AM
Looks like folks related to some British Isles folks.  7th century AD would be in the depths of the Dark Ages.  What do you think are the implications that they were heavily armoured?  or elsewise?


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2009, 09:21:23 AM
Looks like folks related to some British Isles folks.  7th century AD would be in the depths of the Dark Ages.  What do you think are the implications that they were heavily armoured?  or elsewise?

That report didn't have much information about the burial itself or the artifacts, so, I don't know if those warriors were Bavarians or Franks or Saxons or what.

Judging from the matches from YSearch they have listed (neat that they did that), it looks like they might have been R-U106 of some kind, but there's no real way to tell from just 24 markers.

I hope this is a good sign and that scientists start getting some legitimate, uncontaminated y-dna from more old archaeological sites. I would really like to see them try for some y-dna from the Amesbury Archer and the Hochdorf Chieftain.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on July 10, 2009, 03:34:06 AM
244F has 7 GD at 17 markers from my maternal grandpa (G2a3b1). That's funny...

I know somewhere I saw but I cant remember, so can anyone please tell me which markers and what values make a clear difference between U106 and P312?
It would be useful for many research to know.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: GoldenHind on July 10, 2009, 03:31:05 PM
244F has 7 GD at 17 markers from my maternal grandpa (G2a3b1). That's funny...

I know somewhere I saw but I cant remember, so can anyone please tell me which markers and what values make a clear difference between U106 and P312?
It would be useful for many research to know.
So far as I am aware, the only reasonably reliable one is 492, and even that is only about 80% accurate. 492=12 is generally P312 and 13 is usually U106. Trying to determine R1b-M269 subclades from STR markers alone is extremely difficult.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on December 24, 2009, 01:56:29 PM
Great find Stevo

I have been reading about the Franks lately. I can guess you have seen my associated posting in the Swiss L21 thread.

I have not heard any mention of the Franks in any topics.
I suspect the Franks have assisted in the spread Continental L21.

In reading about the Franks i remembered this topic which seemed to fit the time period.

http://www.jrank.org/history/pages/6096/Franks-Frankish-Empire.html
The Franks buried their people with their weapons.

"By the middle of the sixth century the Frankish kingdom was the most politically united, militarily successful, and economically prosperous of all the barbarian kingdoms established in the former Roman Empire. Archaeologists have discovered their dress fashions and burial fashions imitated across a wide area of western Europe."

Read more: Franks and the Frankish Empire - Reihengräber, The Franks, Naissance de la France http://www.jrank.org/history/pages/6096/Franks-Frankish-Empire.html#ixzz0ad6WQzUr

I would love to see snp testing.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on December 24, 2009, 05:32:15 PM
I'm not sure about the Franks, but I'm pretty sure most of the Beans were probably L21+. ;-)

You know, like Mr. Bean.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 24, 2009, 07:54:28 PM
244F has 7 GD at 17 markers from my maternal grandpa (G2a3b1). That's funny...

I know somewhere I saw but I cant remember, so can anyone please tell me which markers and what values make a clear difference between U106 and P312?
It would be useful for many research to know.
So far as I am aware, the only reasonably reliable one is 492, and even that is only about 80% accurate. 492=12 is generally P312 and 13 is usually U106. Trying to determine R1b-M269 subclades from STR markers alone is extremely difficult.
Yes, STR's are not (edit: missed a key word) from foolproof in discerning P312, U106 and downstream subclades.  492=13 is rare for L21+ but there are six that I'm aware of.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: GoldenHind on December 24, 2009, 09:23:22 PM
When these results were first announced, different people rushed forward to proclaim these haplotypes were obviously U106 or U152, depending, of course, on what their particular subclade happened to be.
I just had a look at the Ysearch entries for them. For H78RA there were four 21/24 matches. Three of them were L21 and the fourth, not deep clade tested, was a Lindsay from Scotland.
One can certainly see why they were all proclaimed to be obviously U106 or U152, can't one?
Or maybe this particular one was a Celtic mercenary serving in the Frankish army,  a wandering Irish monk serving as a Frankish chaplain or had shipped out of Scotland on the Aberdeen/Ergolding steamship line?
Anything but a genuine Frank, which would clearly be heretical.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on December 26, 2009, 01:34:00 PM
After some thought I wondered what the Soldiers related male ancestors strs would look like today?

After 1300 years can we expect a GD of 1 or 2?..or 4

I`m not saying that these males have direct male ancestors.
Perhaps their cousins did.

 



Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on December 26, 2009, 02:39:58 PM
After some thought I wondered what the Soldiers related male ancestors strs would look like today?

After 1300 years can we expect a GD of 1 or 2?..or 4

I`m not saying that these males have direct male ancestors.
Perhaps their cousins did.

If they had descendants (and there could be a lot of them out there), we should expect a few mutations by now, perhaps as many as ten at 67 markers, I think.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: vtilroe on December 26, 2009, 03:24:52 PM
After some thought I wondered what the Soldiers related male ancestors strs would look like today?

After 1300 years can we expect a GD of 1 or 2?..or 4

I`m not saying that these males have direct male ancestors.
Perhaps their cousins did.

If they had descendants (and there could be a lot of them out there), we should expect a few mutations by now, perhaps as many as ten at 67 markers, I think.

According to Ann Turner's mutation calculator @ http://www.dnacousins.com/ ...
a) for two 67 marker haplotypes with a presumed MRCA circa 1300 years ago:
b) assume average mutation rate = 0.0024 (average mutations per locus per transmission)
c) assume each generation (transmission event period) = 30 years; therefore 2*(1300/30) = approx. 86 transmission events)

Click on Calculate and the "expected" number of mutations is about 13.8, with a 51.7% chance of being more than 14 mutations  and only a <2% chance of being less than 7 mutations.

Edit: (I think this is a bit theoretical, and presumes that all mutation events are observable.  However I do not believe that it models the likely behavior of locii to back-mutate, which implies that the number of observed mutations will be less than the number of actual mutations, therefore I suspect that these numbers could be a bit on the high side.)


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on December 26, 2009, 03:28:44 PM
After some thought I wondered what the Soldiers related male ancestors strs would look like today?

After 1300 years can we expect a GD of 1 or 2?..or 4

I`m not saying that these males have direct male ancestors.
Perhaps their cousins did.

If they had descendants (and there could be a lot of them out there), we should expect a few mutations by now, perhaps as many as ten at 67 markers, I think.

According to Ann Turner's mutation calculator @ http://www.dnacousins.com/ ...
a) for two 67 marker haplotypes with a presumed MRCA circa 1300 years ago:
b) assume average mutation rate = 0.0024 (average mutations per locus per transmission)
c) assume each generation (transmission event period) = 30 years; therefore 2*(1300/30) = approx. 86 transmission events)

Click on Calculate and the "expected" number of mutations is about 13.8, with a 51.7% chance of being more than 14 mutations  and only a <2% chance of being less than 7 mutations.


So, I wasn't too far off in my guesstimate.

Which means it would be pretty tough to identify descendants of those Ergolding skeletons, even if they could get 67 markers from them.

It would be nice if we knew their subclades though. That at least would be very helpful.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: vtilroe on December 26, 2009, 03:41:12 PM
Edit made to post above.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: vtilroe on December 26, 2009, 03:49:58 PM
^ [slaps head] Oh that's why the number seemed so high - I should have only used 43 transmission events, which brings down the # of mutations to about 7, and the 95% confidence interval to between 2 to 13 mutations.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on December 26, 2009, 05:52:30 PM
^ [slaps head] Oh that's why the number seemed so high - I should have only used 43 transmission events, which brings down the # of mutations to about 7, and the 95% confidence interval to between 2 to 13 mutations.

Ah, okay. I still wasn't too far off.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: bart otoole on December 26, 2009, 11:21:24 PM
Well, I don't think they are my relatives.

GD's 5/18 and 8/23

But it was neat to test against them.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on December 27, 2009, 10:08:42 AM
With H78RA I'm 14/24 (gd of 10). With 6QUDR I'm 16/24 (gd of 8).

So, a relationship is remotely possible, but unlikely.

You're right. It was kind of fun checking that out. I hope we see more medieval stuff like that and maybe even some ancient y-dna.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: bart otoole on December 27, 2009, 11:54:18 AM
6QUDR - a gd of 7

were there 3?

I had found H78RA and ZYRUU


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on December 27, 2009, 12:14:39 PM
6QUDR - a gd of 7

were there 3?

I had found H78RA and ZYRUU

ZYRUU?

I saw only H78RA and 6QUDR in the report.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: bart otoole on December 27, 2009, 12:39:53 PM
i did a ysearch on names using 'unknown'

unknown skeleton 244d, 244c, 244ea, 244eb, 244f

all came up.  I ignored the g's


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: GoldenHind on December 27, 2009, 04:32:07 PM
6QUDR - a gd of 7

were there 3?

I had found H78RA and ZYRUU

ZYRUU?
I saw only H78RA and 6QUDR in the report.

There are a total of three listed on Ysearch, 6QUDR, H78RA and ZYRUU.



Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on December 28, 2009, 09:44:13 AM
(Me MPZR9), 6QUDR, H78RA, ZYRUU

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 25 15 19 29 10 16 12 23 13
13 23 14 10 11 14 12 12 ---13 13 29 17 9 10 24 15 19 29 11 16 12 23 13
13 23 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 ---18 9 10 24 15 19 29 11 16 12 23 13
13 24 ---11 11 14 12 ---12 13 13 29 18 8 10 ---15----29 10 15 12 23


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on December 28, 2009, 11:27:38 AM
Did you all notice something about those Ysearch entries?

Almost all of their matches or close neighbors listed British Isles ancestry!

That might lead the hasty to conclude that those three armored warriors from Ergolding in Bavaria were all Brits.

Get the picture?

That shows you just how much the massively disproportionate British Isles representation in genetic genealogy databases is skewing results and coloring what we see.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on December 31, 2009, 07:58:57 PM
...no

2 Irishmen and one Highlander


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on December 31, 2009, 09:20:00 PM
...no

2 Irishmen and one Highlander

All from the British Isles.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on December 31, 2009, 10:17:47 PM
 That part of Germany is getting towards Switzerland which in the 7th century formed part of Frankish kingdom. The horse would have helped move haplotypes all over the place.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on January 01, 2010, 10:49:36 AM
That part of Germany is getting towards Switzerland which in the 7th century formed part of Frankish kingdom. The horse would have helped move haplotypes all over the place.

My point is that our databases are heavily skewed toward the British Isles. That affects R1b more than any other haplogroup, because the British Isles are predominantly R1b.

I see the effects of it in my projects. Anytime a continental guy gets an R1b result of some kind, he immediately suspects his ancestor was British or Irish, when that is probably not the case at all. And look at what happened almost immediately after L21 was discovered. All sorts of people instantly assumed L21 originated somewhere in the British Isles. That delusion is still being pursued here and there, despite the growing body of continental evidence.

I was just pointing out that the Ergolding remains have their closest matches in the British Isles, not because those warriors were from the British Isles, but because of the nature of the genealogical databases.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on January 01, 2010, 01:28:44 PM
In life if something looks and smells like a skunk it usually is.
R1B has proven to be a real stinker to figure out.

We are still in the pioneering stages of dna genealogy.
Finding more snps is the way to go.
Another 10 years should help paint a better picture.





 



Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on January 01, 2010, 03:14:02 PM
In real life not everything in the weasel family is a skunk, but when you run over them at night on a country road, they all kind of smell the same. ;-)


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on January 03, 2010, 11:57:31 AM

Skunks belong to the family Mephitidae

Recent genetic evidence suggests that the skunks are not as closely related to the mustelids as previously thought; they are now classified in their own family,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk
I have seen very few weasels, but I doubt that a weasel could match the stink of a skunk.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I wonder if the Warrior's bones could reveal anything about their death?
Whether they died of trauma or possible illness'


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on January 03, 2010, 01:38:54 PM
Probably those scientists do know the cause of death for the Ergolding remains, but I don't remember them mentioning it in the report.

The whole point about the British Isles Ysearch matches was that the genetic genealogy databases are so overloaded with British Isles results relative to continental results, especially when it comes to R1b, that every sort of R1b begins to look British, even 7th century Bavarian skeletons.

And that is why so many hasty people immediately jumped to the conclusion that L21 originated in the British Isles after the first dozen or so test results back in November of 2008.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on January 03, 2010, 05:02:58 PM
Yes I understand that the results are overwhelmed on the side of the Isles.

The scale may always be unbalanced as far as the number of people tested. I guess we have to figure what kind of numbers we need  from the mainland, and at some point compare them.

If FamilyTreeDNA could find the Warrior's SNP's, it would be a good marketing tool.
  



Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on January 13, 2010, 04:44:29 PM
I emailed Daniel Vanek about the Warrior's results. He was kind enough to email me back.

I pasted it below:


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Thank you for your interesting e-mail.

You are absolutely right that testing SNPs on the ancient bones would bring much more information about the individuals.

Unfortunately we do not have in place the technology for SNP typing and are able just to perform STR typing. However we plan to expand the set of polymorphic systems we test and prepare a SNaPshot multiplex for a precise Y-chromosome SNP typing. The second step will be the validation of the SNaPshot multiplex and after all of that we can start with the ancient bones.

Best regards
Daniel


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on January 13, 2010, 08:02:27 PM
I emailed Daniel Vanek about the Warrior's results. He was kind enough to email me back.

I pasted it below:


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Thank you for your interesting e-mail.

You are absolutely right that testing SNPs on the ancient bones would bring much more information about the individuals.

Unfortunately we do not have in place the technology for SNP typing and are able just to perform STR typing. However we plan to expand the set of polymorphic systems we test and prepare a SNaPshot multiplex for a precise Y-chromosome SNP typing. The second step will be the validation of the SNaPshot multiplex and after all of that we can start with the ancient bones.

Best regards
Daniel


Awesome! Great work, Mike!


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on January 14, 2010, 06:13:08 PM
I sent Daniel a thank-you,

Also I sent links to this forum, dna-forums.com, and the R-L21 project.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on January 17, 2010, 07:35:05 PM
I wish they could get some y-dna results (with SNPs) from these old bones (http://www.keltenmuseum.de/english/burial/man.html).


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: GoldenHind on January 17, 2010, 08:41:03 PM
I wish they could get some y-dna results (with SNPs) from these old bones (http://www.keltenmuseum.de/english/burial/man.html).
I suspect Dr. Faux could tell you that an SNP test wouldn't be necessary to confirm his U152 atatus.


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on January 17, 2010, 09:00:27 PM
The Celtic Prince was no wee irishman 6'3" :)


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on January 18, 2010, 10:22:39 AM
I wish they could get some y-dna results (with SNPs) from these old bones (http://www.keltenmuseum.de/english/burial/man.html).
I suspect Dr. Faux could tell you that an SNP test wouldn't be necessary to confirm his U152 atatus.

You're probably right, but I would like to see some actual test reports.

I mean, maybe he wasn't even any kind of R1b, but it would be nice to know what he was.

Of course, a single result wouldn't mean that all the other Celtic chiefs in all the other burial mounds were the same . . .


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: OConnor on January 18, 2010, 10:32:54 AM
After some thought I wondered what the Soldiers related male ancestors strs would look like today?

After 1300 years can we expect a GD of 1 or 2?..or 4


If they had descendants (and there could be a lot of them out there), we should expect a few mutations by now, perhaps as many as ten at 67 markers, I think.

I was wondering about my distance of 20+ with some R-L159.2 guys.

I was impressed with the grave finds of the Celtic King. Pointy little boots and a wood hat.
It makes me think about clothing back then. I'm sure people wore more colour than we show in sketches of people of the time.

That is a great site stevo...thanks


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on January 18, 2010, 10:44:07 AM
I was wondering about my distance of 20+ with some R-L159.2 guys.

I was impressed with the grave finds of the Celtic King. Pointy little boots and a wood hat.
It makes me think about clothing back then. I'm sure people wore more colour than we show in sketches of people of the time.

That is a great site stevo...thanks

As I recall, those same kind of pointy hats were found with some of the Takla Makan mummies, but I haven't been able to find any photos of those hats.

Wikipedia has a pretty good photo of the reconstructed inside of the Hochdorf Prince's tomb:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hochdorf_keltenmuseum0815.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hochdorf_keltenmuseum0815.jpg)


Title: Re: R1b Mounted Warriors from 7th Century German Burial
Post by: rms2 on January 18, 2010, 10:54:02 AM
Here is another Celtic burial mound not too far from Hochdorf (both are near Stuttgart in SW Germany):

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM17D6_Kilchberg_Celtic_Burial_Mound (http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM17D6_Kilchberg_Celtic_Burial_Mound)

Maybe I should start a separate thread on this topic.