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Title: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: rms2 on February 21, 2009, 01:45:27 PM
Hey! I was looking at the French/French-Canadian/ Acadian/Metis/ Cajun DNA Project's Y results page and discovered a treasure trove of green (SNP tested) R1b1b2a1b entries who are NOT yet members of the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Wow!

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults)
 
We complain about France being terra incognita when it comes to dna testing, but there sits a load of P312+ that we know almost nothing about!
 
Here are some of the surnames I saw that are not yet in the R-P312 and Subclades Project but have a green R1b1b2a1b beside them:
 
Baubie
Bourque
Brunelle
Brunet
Chartier
Clement
Cyrs
D'Arcy
Delahoussaye
Desaulniers
Lafond
Lussier
Moreau
Perreault
Reno
Sarrazin

 
I sent an email to the project's admin asking him to bulk email his members and encourage those who are P312+ to join the project. Maybe he'll help us out.
 
I'm also wondering - naturally - if any of these gentlemen has an L21+ result.
 
Maybe this is no surprise to you, but I was blown away by the number of green R1b1b2a1bs in this project who aren't in our project, not to mention all the red and green R1b1b2s who have not been tested for P312 but who very well may be R1b1b2a1b themselves.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: GoldenHind on February 21, 2009, 07:15:31 PM
Is there any indication of where in France any of them hail from? I have a vague recollection that many of the Acadians came from Brittany and Normandy.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: rms2 on February 21, 2009, 09:01:58 PM
I don't see anything on their project web sites that show where their ancestors came from in France. I ran the names in the World Names Profiler and they are all over the French map.

One thing I think is interesting given all these French P312+. What if P312 had been discovered before U152/S28? Would it have been designated the "La Tene Celt" marker?

Of all the identified R1b1b2 subclades in the French Heritage Project, R1b1b2a1b is now the most numerous.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: GoldenHind on February 21, 2009, 09:20:57 PM
One thing I think is interesting given all these French P312+. What if P312 had been discovered before U152/S28? Would it have been designated the "La Tene Celt" marker?

Possibly so, but it wouldn't have been any more accurate.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: rms2 on February 21, 2009, 09:25:51 PM
One thing I think is interesting given all these French P312+. What if P312 had been discovered before U152/S28? Would it have been designated the "La Tene Celt" marker?

Possibly so, but it wouldn't have been any more accurate.

I agree, but my point was the propaganda advantage to be had in having a lead in the pecking order of subclades.

Those that come after have a difficult time overcoming that.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: chris1 on February 22, 2009, 07:50:00 AM
One thing I think is interesting given all these French P312+. What if P312 had been discovered before U152/S28? Would it have been designated the "La Tene Celt" marker?

Possibly so, but it wouldn't have been any more accurate.

I agree, but my point was the propaganda advantage to be had in having a lead in the pecking order of subclades.

Those that come after have a difficult time overcoming that.

lol, after the SNP gold rush I hope there's still a spare 'identity' remaining for the poor P312* subclades who are still waiting for their SNP.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: rms2 on February 22, 2009, 11:05:59 AM
lol, after the SNP gold rush I hope there's still a spare 'identity' remaining for the poor P312* subclades who are still waiting for their SNP.

I think we're all too late, Chris. U106 (S21) and U152 (S28) were discovered in 2005, and pretty quickly some of their partisans snatched up the most glamorous and heroic tribes, designating the rest of us as "aborigines" or what I liked to characterize as the "cast of thousands" who formed the backdrop to their exploits.

Pickings are pretty slim, regardless of where we show up on the map.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 04, 2009, 11:05:15 AM
lol, after the SNP gold rush I hope there's still a spare 'identity' remaining for the poor P312* subclades who are still waiting for their SNP.

I think we're all too late, Chris. U106 (S21) and U152 (S28) were discovered in 2005, and pretty quickly some of their partisans snatched up the most glamorous and heroic tribes, designating the rest of us as "aborigines" or what I liked to characterize as the "cast of thousands" who formed the backdrop to their exploits.

Pickings are pretty slim, regardless of where we show up on the map.

I wish originators would retract the labels.  They do add some "life" or meaning but they are so misleading I don't think it is worth it.

The labeling of SNP sub-clades as "Frisian", "Le Tene Celt" or what have you is very misleading.  To the uninitiated,  the implication is that all people with that SNP are Y descendants of the specified label.  A second implication is that if you don't have that SNP, the group must not be a Y ancestor for you.  Either implication could and probably is totally false in most cases.

In all likelihood, these groups were large enough and not isolated enough that that would have had several different sub-clades.   Eventually, we may find certain haplotype clusters of certain sub-clades, or sub-sub-clades may have been relegated to certain groups.  Undoubtedly this will be the case at some point back in time to some ancient people, but we are not there yet.



Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: GoldenHind on March 04, 2009, 03:38:10 PM
Personally I lay the whole U152=Celtic and U106=Germanic at Dr. Faux's door. When P312 was discovered, many people just substituted it for U152 and changed it to pan-Celtic. I am always astounded how many still believe these labels are valid despite a nearly complete absence of supporting evidence.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: Kestrel on March 04, 2009, 05:18:57 PM


[/quote]

I wish originators would retract the labels.  They do add some "life" or meaning but they are so misleading I don't think it is worth it.

The labeling of SNP sub-clades as "Frisian", "Le Tene Celt" or what have you is very misleading.  To the uninitiated,  the implication is that all people with that SNP are Y descendants of the specified label.  A second implication is that if you don't have that SNP, the group must not be a Y ancestor for you.  Either implication could and probably is totally false in most cases.

In all likelihood, these groups were large enough and not isolated enough that that would have had several different sub-clades.   Eventually, we may find certain haplotype clusters of certain sub-clades, or sub-sub-clades may have been relegated to certain groups.  Undoubtedly this will be the case at some point back in time to some ancient people, but we are not there yet.

[/quote]

Well said Mike.There are a lot of Walsh's in Ireland and they dont all have a common ancestor.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on March 05, 2009, 12:20:05 AM
"Personally I lay the whole U152=Celtic and U106=Germanic at Dr. Faux's door."

I totally agree with you. The element in the industry wishing to make money is at odds with scientific endeavors.

Glenn Allen Nolen


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: didier on March 05, 2009, 12:56:40 PM
I agree but....  I had some mail exchanges with  a few french archeologists and the U152 / U106 split  is obviously unexpected.  The gaul / germans  difference  of  Julius Caesar time seems to be interpreted as just semantic  while  genetics is pointing to something. The 2 populations aren't really mixed up so the split U152 / U106 must have been visible on a cultural point of view ; impossible to say : " well the celts might have been a mixture of U152 and U106" , it doesn't fit.  So, the U152 / U106 split requires an explanation and there is no name for it . We need more data on the extent of U106 in Austria but I am wondering if U106 is the Hallstadt  signature (and migration to Holland region would be a later event) and U152 would be the La Tene signature. U106 seems to be a "recent" SNP  btu it might be that it's so in Holland, not when considering Austrian samples . I don't know  but  we need to face the fact that this split  exists  and a name is required for it.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: GoldenHind on March 05, 2009, 04:13:44 PM
I agree but....  I had some mail exchanges with  a few french archeologists and the U152 / U106 split  is obviously unexpected.  The gaul / germans  difference  of  Julius Caesar time seems to be interpreted as just semantic  while  genetics is pointing to something. The 2 populations aren't really mixed up so the split U152 / U106 must have been visible on a cultural point of view ; impossible to say : " well the celts might have been a mixture of U152 and U106" , it doesn't fit.  So, the U152 / U106 split requires an explanation and there is no name for it . We need more data on the extent of U106 in Austria but I am wondering if U106 is the Hallstadt  signature (and migration to Holland region would be a later event) and U152 would be the La Tene signature. U106 seems to be a "recent" SNP  btu it might be that it's so in Holland, not when considering Austrian samples . I don't know  but  we need to face the fact that this split  exists  and a name is required for it.
You are leaving P312 out of the equation. It is my own view that these subclades originated in the neolithic and by the time of the Bronze age they were integrated in a number of areas, especially in central Germany and along the Rhine valley. That wouldn't preclude some areas of Europe from having greater percentages of one subclade over the other. But I think any attempt to equate these neolithic divisions with Iron Age cultures is misleading.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: Kestrel on March 05, 2009, 06:16:44 PM
Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: didier on March 05, 2009, 07:02:17 PM
Well, at this point we reach the discussion on dating of haplotypes . Recently, the ice age refugium was ruled out and it was said that R1b1b2  is fairly young : around 5000 years . Neolithic in Europe started 7000 years ago (in the western part of Europe but earlier in the east) . 

Now, to go back to the french case, I would say that the progressive colonization of Gaul from the east by U152  let me wonder what population was there before. I also have a question in my mind about the impact of the roman conquest on the genetics ; what's the roman genetic signature ?  France is a case where this question is particularly important because roman settlement was important. We still have a lot to learn.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: rms2 on March 05, 2009, 09:13:52 PM
Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!

You popped in once before to make a vague implication about us discussing Scandinavia. Now here you are in a thread about P312+ in France wondering about some imagined "obsession" with Germany.

In case you haven't noticed, this subforum is the R1b1b2 Forum. We come here to discuss R1b1b2. Think that might be why we don't spend a lot of time wondering about other y haplogroups?

I am not sure I understand what your difficulty is.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: rms2 on March 05, 2009, 09:20:02 PM
Well, at this point we reach the discussion on dating of haplotypes . Recently, the ice age refugium was ruled out and it was said that R1b1b2  is fairly young : around 5000 years . Neolithic in Europe started 7000 years ago (in the western part of Europe but earlier in the east) . 

Now, to go back to the french case, I would say that the progressive colonization of Gaul from the east by U152  let me wonder what population was there before. I also have a question in my mind about the impact of the roman conquest on the genetics ; what's the roman genetic signature ?  France is a case where this question is particularly important because roman settlement was important. We still have a lot to learn.

What makes you think there was a "progressive colonization of Gaul from the east by U152"? We don't know that. That's Faux's assumption.

Look at the maps of R-P312* and R-L21* in France. I think between the two of them and the other non-U152 R1b1b2 subclades, we have U152 outnumbered in France.

I was going to mention that lately the number of R-P312* in France has been steadily growing.  We added a new French R-L21* tonight (Chartier), but that follows a number of recent R-P312* additions there (check out the maps - I haven't been able to add Chartier to the R-L21* Map yet, though).


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: GoldenHind on March 05, 2009, 10:45:03 PM
Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!
I am not "obsessed" with Germany, or Scandinavia either for that matter. I AM interested in the distribution in Europe of U106 and P312, and Scandinavia and Germany are looking like areas where the two subclades are reasonably well integrated. The areas where the subclades are integrated is just as imporatnt to working out their history as the areas where they are in largely separated.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: didier on March 06, 2009, 02:37:14 PM
This reply is  to Rich : I agree that we don't know for sure that  U152  homeland is around southern Germany.  This  is an opportunity to point to a surprising absence of academic studies on U152, U106 ,and now L21. L21  was only recently uncovered but  U152 and U106 have been around for  3 years. It's  true that testing of  individuals is low in France but the main problem is the absence of academic papers on these subclades (I forgot to name P312  - another important marker with no publication). In this desert I have to admit that I found the correlation between U152 and La Tene Celts  interesting. 

Recently, several studies using the chipset technology  used by 23andME and deCODEme to analyze SNPs on all chromosomes were published. Actually they reported on the 22 autosomal chromosomes and nothing on the Y chromosome  which is amazing since 23andME and deCODEme have the chipset with Y SNPs  and the same DNA samples could be run on these chipsets. I don't know if I am missing some still unpublished information but the data could be public by now and they aren't.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: Kestrel on March 06, 2009, 04:22:30 PM
Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!

You popped in once before to make a vague implication about us discussing Scandinavia. Now here you are in a thread about P312+ in France wondering about some imagined "obsession" with Germany.

In case you haven't noticed, this subforum is the R1b1b2 Forum. We come here to discuss R1b1b2. Think that might be why we don't spend a lot of time wondering about other y haplogroups?

I am not sure I understand what your difficulty is.

I have no difficulty at all.Are you saying that all the farmers came from the East and were all M269?Do you not think they could have been a mixture of haplogroups?


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 06, 2009, 06:19:39 PM
Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!

You popped in once before to make a vague implication about us discussing Scandinavia. Now here you are in a thread about P312+ in France wondering about some imagined "obsession" with Germany.

In case you haven't noticed, this subforum is the R1b1b2 Forum. We come here to discuss R1b1b2. Think that might be why we don't spend a lot of time wondering about other y haplogroups?

I am not sure I understand what your difficulty is.

I have no difficulty at all.Are you saying that all the farmers came from the East and were all M269?Do you not think they could have been a mixture of haplogroups?
I haven't heard anyone say that all farmers are R-M269, or anything else for that matter.

Not all, but many who are looking at the Y-DNA phylogenetic tree, counting SNP's accumulated down each branch and haplotype diversity within a branch, are concluding that R-M269 and it's sub-clades (the major ones being P312 and U106) appear to have expanded quickly on the scene in Central and Western Europe only a few thousand years ago.  Possibly this would be during the Iron Age, but no early then the start of the Neolithic Age.  R-M269 appears have come out of Southwest Asia, possibly out of Anatolia (Turkey) or the Pontic Steppes, before its explosive growth in Europe.

The carrier groups might have been Yamanaya cultures, Bell Beaker cultures, LBK Neolithic cultures or Impressed Wares Neolithic cultures.... or a number of others including Bronze Age Celtic types.   I don't think anyone thinks it was a pure single Y haplogroup culture that R-M269's subclades spread with.

I don't know of any obsessions with Germany, but some Celtic groups seem to have emanated from the Southern Germany, Austria, Czech Republic area.   Bell Beaker folks may have emanated from slightly east in Hungary.    From a DNA testing standpoint, we've got a lot of samples in the public databases from the British Isles, but near as many from Continental Europe, i.e. Germany and particularly France.  From that perspective, any new French and German geographic results are useful.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: rms2 on March 07, 2009, 09:23:59 AM
Weren't these subclades all over Europe in the Neolithic?Why the obsession with Germany?There were other haplogroups in Germany as well.R1b is 48% of those tested.No-one ever talks about which tribes these other haplogroups belonged to!!

You popped in once before to make a vague implication about us discussing Scandinavia. Now here you are in a thread about P312+ in France wondering about some imagined "obsession" with Germany.

In case you haven't noticed, this subforum is the R1b1b2 Forum. We come here to discuss R1b1b2. Think that might be why we don't spend a lot of time wondering about other y haplogroups?

I am not sure I understand what your difficulty is.

I have no difficulty at all.Are you saying that all the farmers came from the East and were all M269?Do you not think they could have been a mixture of haplogroups?

Mike's answer was good, but I want to add my own.

This is the R1b1b2 subforum at World Families. All or most of us who post here are R1b1b2 of some kind. That's what we come here to talk about: our own y-dna ancestors. We are all fully aware that Europe has plenty of other haplogroups and that their members played an important role in the continent's development. I myself have several I1 lines in my family tree that I know about.

But if you are looking for lots of discussion on y haplogroups other than R1b1b2, you're in the wrong place.

And we are going to talk about the places where our subclades are found, not about the places where they are not.



Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: Kestrel on March 07, 2009, 12:16:19 PM
Im M269 myself and I just find it hard to understand why everytime I come on this forum I see L21  found in Germany and P312 found in France etc. They have been around Europe for thousands of years.I looked at your maps and Im thinking how would anyone ever be able to place the origin of these groups?I think also that youre reading too much into what Im saying.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: rms2 on March 07, 2009, 12:33:31 PM
Im M269 myself and I just find it hard to understand why everytime I come on this forum I see L21  found in Germany and P312 found in France etc. They have been around Europe for thousands of years.I looked at your maps and Im thinking how would anyone ever be able to place the origin of these groups?I think also that youre reading too much into what Im saying.

Sigh . . .

Continental results are important in trying to decipher the history of P312 and its subclades, including L21. That is the reason for the repeated mention of France, Germany, etc.

When you apparently objected to our discussing L21 in Scandinavia, you said something like, "What is behind this?" Then, in this thread about P312 in France, you accused us of having an "obsession" with Germany.

How am I not supposed to read things into what you write when you write like that?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but you sounded like some sort of pc policeman, afraid we were spending too much time talking about - gasp! - white people.

If you have looked at the maps, then you know there are clines in the distribution of the various y haplogroups, and they are not hopelessly scattered and jumbled all about Europe.

Our hope is that the accumulation of data will eventually give us some clues as to the origin of our ancestors. That is what all this stuff is about.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: vtilroe on March 07, 2009, 02:26:00 PM
Im M269 myself and I just find it hard to understand why everytime I come on this forum I see L21  found in Germany and P312 found in France etc. They have been around Europe for thousands of years.I looked at your maps and Im thinking how would anyone ever be able to place the origin of these groups?I think also that youre reading too much into what Im saying.
Feel free to start a R-M269* thread.  Vince Vizachero is leading the research group consisting of those who are M269+ but P312- and U106-, but most of those discussions are happening on the Rootsweb GENEALOGY-DNA list and dna-forums.org

Hopefully you are a member of his project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

Interestingly, Thomas Krahn now has a split on his working draft (http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=21&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 (http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=21&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)) of haplogroups below R-M269 that will bump most of us lowly R-U106+ R-P312+ and R-L21+ etc. types down yet another level, once it gets published.  I think they're going to need to find another L51+ L11- man first before it does.

R-L20 will then be something like R1b1b2a1a2d3a (13 levels deep), never-mind the poor souls who are in R-M228.2.


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: rms2 on March 08, 2009, 01:19:03 PM
. . .

Interestingly, Thomas Krahn now has a split on his working draft (http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=21&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 (http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=21&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)) . . .



Whoa, Nelly!

It's been awhile since I looked at that working draft, and it sure has changed!

Thanks!


Title: Re: French P312+: Amazement!
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on March 17, 2009, 09:53:43 AM
Now as I see you are lacking Continental info:
I am from Hungary, R1b U152+ (further markers unknown).
My earliest known paternal relative was named Fejer, 1819, Jaszarokszallas (Central Hungary). As we should be Alpine Celts, two possible origins are there:
1. The Celtic tribe Cottini inhabited the Carpathian Basin in the Roman era. My ancestors then were "Hungarized" by the incoming steppe Avars/Magyars in the early middle ages.
2. My ancestors lived in Southern Germany as many La Tene Celts did and then were "germanized" by the Allemanni tribe. After 1000 AD, but especially in the 18th century many Swabians were settled in Hungary, so they could come as well. However, this version is less likely as Swabians are very "pro-traditional" people, so they are unlikely to forgot their ancestry and there was no Swabian tradition in our family.

I still think that U-152 Celtic vs. U-106 German divison is real. This does not contradict the fact that both are to be find all over Europe, as Celtic are reached from Ireland to Galatia (Turkey) and from Portugal to Western Ukraine. Germans again migrated from Sweden down to Ukraine (Goths) and to Spain, as well as into Britain and to Ireland from there. Goths also raided Grecce, Italy etc.
But the concentration, the linguistic facts and pre-historic + historic migrations seem to strengthen the Celtic vs. German split.

I think Roman soldiers can not be followed by genes, as
1. they came from numerous ethnic groups
2. Even Italian (Latium) gene pool was likely mixed in early Roman times (R1b, J2, G, I, E-M78)
3. Settling soldiers made little inpact on the whole population as they did not exterminate the local population - whereas tribal (Celtic, Germanic) wars had such nature (see Rwanda, Bosnia even today)