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Title: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on February 21, 2009, 08:27:46 AM
Yesterday we acquired our first L21+ who can trace his ancestry to Iberia - in this case, Spain: Arrizabalaga. His most distant ancestor came from Azcoitia in the Basque country, and Arrizabalaga is a Basque surname. I have added him to the R-L21* Map.

Thus far, Iberia remains overwhelmingly L21-, but it would be nice if all our Iberian brethren were fully SNP tested.

Unfortunately, Arrizabalaga has only a 12-marker haplotype at this time.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: eochaidh on February 21, 2009, 06:41:29 PM
This is an outrage! The man is obviously a German!

I have already called the police (no, not the British Band!), and they said to, "...put the Basque man down and step away from the SNP"!

Thanks,  Miles


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on February 21, 2009, 07:13:58 PM
No, it is proof of the Milesian legends, only they had the direction of travel the wrong way.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on February 21, 2009, 09:31:10 PM
This is an outrage! The man is obviously a German!

I have already called the police (no, not the British Band!), and they said to, "...put the Basque man down and step away from the SNP"!

Thanks,  Miles

I must have missed something.

I guess one Basque in a comparative sea of L21- Iberian results is the equivalent of twelve L21+ Germans, nine L21+ Scandinavians, seven L21+ Frenchmen, etc., etc.

The game is up now!

L21 must have been born in the "Iberian Ice Age Refuge"! ;-)



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: eochaidh on March 18, 2009, 11:52:51 AM
I used the new Haplogroup designation, R1b1b1ab5 (L21+) to search for Iberian L21+ men and found six. One is the same as aboe, and some would be listed as "Colonial" if they joined the L21+ Project, but still I find it significant. Here they are:

Arizzabalaga (5whys) Azcoitia, Spain
Barreto (af8gn) Spain
Cienfuegos (59jdm) Spain
Montanez (jzbvj) Puerto Rico
Moreno (rw4qr) Puerto Rico
Palmas (aebdh) Mexico   I match 23/25 with this guy.

Thanks,  Miles


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 18, 2009, 01:57:43 PM
I used the new Haplogroup designation, R1b1b1ab5 (L21+) to search for Iberian L21+ men and found six. One is the same as aboe, and some would be listed as "Colonial" if they joined the L21+ Project, but still I find it significant. Here they are:

Arizzabalaga (5whys) Azcoitia, Spain
Barreto (af8gn) Spain
Cienfuegos (59jdm) Spain
Montanez (jzbvj) Puerto Rico
Moreno (rw4qr) Puerto Rico
Palmas (aebdh) Mexico   I match 23/25 with this guy.

Thanks,  Miles
Can you tell from their designation if they are definitely R-21* versus the sub-clades underneath, R-M222, R-M37 or R-P66?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jdean on March 18, 2009, 03:59:32 PM
Can you tell from their designation if they are definitely R-21* versus the sub-clades underneath, R-M222, R-M37 or R-P66?

They all have there own designations that you can search for, assuming they are FTDNA customers it gets updated automatically when FTDNA changes the name.

There aren't any P66's though, as this has only been found once, and they forgot were they put that result, also M37 is private. When the boffins get round too discovering my private SNP I'll be expecting the same level of service from FTDNA.

By the way would it be unreasonable to say that somebody who has a GD of 2 out of 25 has a good chance of having the same haplogroup (L21*), if so I have one in Czech, one in Belgium, and one in Switzerland

Dave


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: eochaidh on March 18, 2009, 06:16:37 PM
I used the new Haplogroup designation, R1b1b1ab5 (L21+) to search for Iberian L21+ men and found six. One is the same as aboe, and some would be listed as "Colonial" if they joined the L21+ Project, but still I find it significant. Here they are:

Arizzabalaga (5whys) Azcoitia, Spain
Barreto (af8gn) Spain
Cienfuegos (59jdm) Spain
Montanez (jzbvj) Puerto Rico
Moreno (rw4qr) Puerto Rico
Palmas (aebdh) Mexico   I match 23/25 with this guy.

Thanks,  Miles
Can you tell from their designation if they are definitely R-21* versus the sub-clades underneath, R-M222, R-M37 or R-P66?

They are simply L21+ by FTDNA testing. This was just updated on Sunday or Monday, I believe.

Thanks,  Miles


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 18, 2009, 07:11:27 PM
I used the new Haplogroup designation, R1b1b1ab5 (L21+) to search for Iberian L21+ men and found six. One is the same as aboe, and some would be listed as "Colonial" if they joined the L21+ Project, but still I find it significant. Here they are:

Arizzabalaga (5whys) Azcoitia, Spain
Barreto (af8gn) Spain
Cienfuegos (59jdm) Spain
Montanez (jzbvj) Puerto Rico
Moreno (rw4qr) Puerto Rico
Palmas (aebdh) Mexico   I match 23/25 with this guy.

Thanks,  Miles

Arrizabalaga traces his y ancestor to Spain.

Barreto I emailed via Ysearch, but he hasn't answered me.

Cienfuegos cannot trace his ancestry to Spain (I cannot say any more but you are barking up the wrong tree there).

Montanez and I have exchanged emails. He has a family tradition of an English ancestor on the island of Martinique.

Moreno lists his most distant y ancestor with the very un-Hispanic surname of Raford.

Palmas I don't know anything about.

I have little doubt there will be some L21+ in Iberia (there were Celts in Iberia, after all), but take a gander at the R-L21* Map and the R-P312* Map. Unless there is a huge reversal of the way things have been going, it doesn't seem likely the Milesian legend is going to survive genetics.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 18, 2009, 07:48:28 PM
Palmas (AEBDH) doesn't have any real close neighbors at 67 markers, but at 34-25 he has many, and they are overwhelmingly British and Irish. He is only one off the "Colla Uais" Modal (C57NK), and he has exact 25-marker matches with a Stewart from Scotland and a Jordan from the USA.

Palmas lists a most distant y ancestor named Lopez born in Mexico in about 1918.

No offense, but I wouldn't assume a solid Iberian connection merely because someone is from Mexico and has a Spanish surname.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on March 18, 2009, 11:20:16 PM
"it doesn't seem likely the Milesian legend is going to survive genetics."

Except for R-U152 DYS 385a and 385b at 11 and 19

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page12.html

"81807 Blair at DYS #385a and 385b at 11 and 19 is also a Scottish surname from the Scotland DNA Project. DF7SK, Corsi from La Cavada, Santander, Spain at DYS #385a and 385b at 11 and 19 and DYS #492 at 14 supports a genetic relationship consistent with that of Irish Scythian Milesian ancestry."

 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: eochaidh on March 18, 2009, 11:38:58 PM
I used the new Haplogroup designation, R1b1b1ab5 (L21+) to search for Iberian L21+ men and found six. One is the same as aboe, and some would be listed as "Colonial" if they joined the L21+ Project, but still I find it significant. Here they are:

Arizzabalaga (5whys) Azcoitia, Spain
Barreto (af8gn) Spain
Cienfuegos (59jdm) Spain
Montanez (jzbvj) Puerto Rico
Moreno (rw4qr) Puerto Rico
Palmas (aebdh) Mexico   I match 23/25 with this guy.

Thanks,  Miles

Arrizabalaga traces his y ancestor to Spain.

Barreto I emailed via Ysearch, but he hasn't answered me.

Cienfuegos cannot trace his ancestry to Spain (I cannot say any more but you are barking up the wrong tree there).

Montanez and I have exchanged emails. He has a family tradition of an English ancestor on the island of Martinique.

Moreno lists his most distant y ancestor with the very un-Hispanic surname of Raford.

Palmas I don't know anything about.

I have little doubt there will be some L21+ in Iberia (there were Celts in Iberia, after all), but take a gander at the R-L21* Map and the R-P312* Map. Unless there is a huge reversal of the way things have been going, it doesn't seem likely the Milesian legend is going to survive genetics.
I didn't say anything about the Milesian legend in my post.

Thanks,  Miles



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: eochaidh on March 18, 2009, 11:43:54 PM
Palmas (AEBDH) doesn't have any real close neighbors at 67 markers, but at 34-25 he has many, and they are overwhelmingly British and Irish. He is only one off the "Colla Uais" Modal (C57NK), and he has exact 25-marker matches with a Stewart from Scotland and a Jordan from the USA.

Palmas lists a most distant y ancestor named Lopez born in Mexico in about 1918.

No offense, but I wouldn't assume a solid Iberian connection merely because someone is from Mexico and has a Spanish surname.

I hope all groups are judged this strictly. Erickson matches up with Scots and Irish, so let us not be quick to assume that anyone from Minnesota with a Scandinavian sounding name has a connection with Scandinavbia. Please don't assume that anyone from Quebec with a French sounding name has a connection with France.

Perhaps Iberian L21+ are being treated like Faux's Irish U152s. They are explained away to fit the template.


thanks,  Miles


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 20, 2009, 07:53:48 AM
Palmas (AEBDH) doesn't have any real close neighbors at 67 markers, but at 34-25 he has many, and they are overwhelmingly British and Irish. He is only one off the "Colla Uais" Modal (C57NK), and he has exact 25-marker matches with a Stewart from Scotland and a Jordan from the USA.

Palmas lists a most distant y ancestor named Lopez born in Mexico in about 1918.

No offense, but I wouldn't assume a solid Iberian connection merely because someone is from Mexico and has a Spanish surname.

I hope all groups are judged this strictly. Erickson matches up with Scots and Irish, so let us not be quick to assume that anyone from Minnesota with a Scandinavian sounding name has a connection with Scandinavbia. Please don't assume that anyone from Quebec with a French sounding name has a connection with France.

Perhaps Iberian L21+ are being treated like Faux's Irish U152s. They are explained away to fit the template.


thanks,  Miles

Wrong. I think you have the "template", Miles. You have said before you were raised with the Milesian legend. You like it, and you would like it to be true.

This comment: "Perhaps Iberian L21+ are being treated like Faux's Irish U152s. They are explained away to fit the template," is just plain wrong. In fact, it's a lie, plain and simple.

I contact EVERY continental L21+ I can find, Iberian and otherwise. When Rick and I first began the R-P312 and Subclades Project, the FIRST thing I did was to contact Robert Tarin, the admin of the Iberia Project, and ask him to recruit Iberian guys to test for P312. I am still in constant email contact with him trying to recruit Iberian guys for Deep Clade testing, including L21. If they were going L21 in any numbers, you think I would try to steer them away from the project or refuse to put them on my R-L21* Map? Not hardly.

If it turns out any of the Scandinavian guys is actually of Scottish or Irish descent, so be it. I don't think they are, but Palmas is ONE off the Colla Uais Modal, Miles, not five or six or ten off it. And he doesn't actually have a known Spanish ancestor. He can only get back to 1918 in Mexico.

Arrizabalaga is Spanish apparently. Barreto may be, but he hasn't answered my email, although I asked him to join the R-L21 Project. I'm in the same boat with Roland (I forget the YSearch ID), a new R1b1b2a1b5 with German ancestry. I emailed him, too, and invited him to join the project: no answer. That happens all the time. I email people and ask them to test or to join the project and most of them never answer.

The information I have on some of the guys you named - the ones with Hispanic surnames but who are not actually of Spanish y line descent - I did not solicit. I did not set out to "debunk" their Spanish ancestry. They either provided the info themselves or someone else told me (in one case only) and I confirmed it with them.

Now, Miles, feel free to recruit as many Iberian guys as you can to test for L21. Pay for their tests yourself, if you want. As many of them as test L21+ are very welcome in the R-L21 Plus Project. Lord knows Robert Tarin and I could use your help.

Oh, and by the way, no one gets into one of the specific European categories on our Y Results page merely by virtue of having a surname that sounds like it should belong to this or that country in Europe. I don't run the Mayflower Society, so I don't demand proof of genealogy. If a person says he can trace his ancestry to a person who was born in the Old World, I accept it, but we don't have any guys "from Minnesota" who are in the "Scandinavia" category merely because they have a Scandinavian surname. In fact, most of the men in the Scandinavia category actually live in Scandinavia.

And Arrizabalaga, the one man thus far in our "Southern Europe" category, actually lives in Spain.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: eochaidh on March 20, 2009, 04:54:52 PM
The template I'm talking about extends far beyond L21+. It also is found with U106+, U152+, and other subclades. I know a U106+ man who was born and raised in Ireland, has a native Irish name, and still lives in Ireland currently, yet he has been told he can't be a genuine Irishman. He must either be the product of an NPE, or a name change by a recent invader, because he is U106+. U106 has been around for an estimated 4,000 years, and it seems to me that it is very possible that this man's Y line could have entered Ireland long before Historical times. I'm L21+, so his U106 could have entered Ireland before my Y line.

The same thing was done by Faux and U152, when it comes to Ireland. I believe this to be narrow thinking, and trying to fit a template. When it comes to Iberian L21+, I think it is very possible for it to have spread to Iberia thousands of years ago. L21+ is estimated to be 3,500 years old and to have originated in either Germany or France, so it had plenty of time to have spread to Iberia.

It is not just this forum that uses this template. I wrote posted the same infromation of what I found on Ysearch on another forum and immediately the responses were of recent migrations.

One of the scenarios I brought up a while back, that of families and clans migrating other than mass migrations is now being used by other posters. Perhaps families and clans from Germany migrated to Iberia and are not detectable by archaeology.

As far asd the Milesian legend, yes, I was raised hearing it. It was taught in schools in Ireland, and may still be taught there. You will find people in northern Portugal and northern Spain who may also have been taught about the Milesians in school. It is not a "Santa Claus" type of myth. When it has been taught, it has often been taught as Historical fact. I have stated several times on these boards that it appears as if genetics will show that it is not true. I also, through my genetic testing, have shown that I am not "of the same stock" as the O'Byrnes as written in Irish Genealogies. So be it. I tested to find these things out.


Thanks,  Miles


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 20, 2009, 06:38:59 PM
A "template" implies a design, and a design in this case implies some sort of coordinated conspiracy to suppress the truth. That is not the case at all.

There is no conspiracy among the admins of various projects to make the Irish one thing and the Iberians another.

If an Irish U106 - I know who you are talking about - wants to believe he is some kind of "Pre-Celt" (which is what that individual claimed), then let him have at it. I think it flies in the face of what we know about U106, but so be it.

You accused me of trying to "explain away" any and all Iberian L21+ because it doesn't fit the "template," and that is just plain crap, not to mention utterly false.

I have no "template."


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: eochaidh on March 20, 2009, 08:06:02 PM
By template I only mean a way of thinking that appears to be constricted by accepted views. I don't think any conspiracy is taking place. Nor do I think that the Irish are being picked on. I would say that in the case of Faux and U152 in Ireland that he certainly was looking for any way to keep native Irish from being U152. In this case I think it's more along the lines of "the U106+ can't be native Irish" because it doesn't fit common belief. I think that common belief may hold true in many cases, but I think it is likely that some U106+ reached Ireland before Celtic times there. It had over 1000 years to migrate there, and I think it did; even if in very smalll numbers.

I simply don't think people should be told they can't be this, or they must be this because of the accepted theories. There are exceptions to any "rule" especially when we are talking about the movement and spread of any subclade.

On the other forum, the Basque guy is already being told directly that he is probably descended from a migrating Briton in Historical times. I'm just saying that perhaps some L21+ migrated to Iberia in pre-Historical times, even if in small (maybe very small) numbers.

Thanks,  Miles


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 20, 2009, 08:33:44 PM
We can only look at the facts and the distribution of haplogroups and subclades. We can't stop anyone from imagining that his own ancestors were the exception and erecting a complex fantasy for himself based on the very remote possibility that it could be true.

Yes, anything is possible, but not everything is likely.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on March 20, 2009, 09:23:53 PM
By template I only mean a way of thinking that appears to be constricted by accepted views. I don't think any conspiracy is taking place. Nor do I think that the Irish are being picked on. I would say that in the case of Faux and U152 in Ireland that he certainly was looking for any way to keep native Irish from being U152. In this case I think it's more along the lines of "the U106+ can't be native Irish" because it doesn't fit common belief. I think that common belief may hold true in many cases, but I think it is likely that some U106+ reached Ireland before Celtic times there. It had over 1000 years to migrate there, and I think it did; even if in very smalll numbers.

I simply don't think people should be told they can't be this, or they must be this because of the accepted theories. There are exceptions to any "rule" especially when we are talking about the movement and spread of any subclade.

On the other forum, the Basque guy is already being told directly that he is probably descended from a migrating Briton in Historical times. I'm just saying that perhaps some L21+ migrated to Iberia in pre-Historical times, even if in small (maybe very small) numbers.

Thanks,  Miles
Leaving aside your comments about the template, I generally agree with the rest of your comments. I don't think Faux's attempt to explain away U162 in Ireland as English or Scottish was due to an anti-Irish bias, but rather to preserve his theory that U152 was only found in the Danelaw in England and therefor due the descendants of Viking invaders. I don't think we should rule out the possibility that U106 was present amongst the Celts in Ireland. Nor do I think it is impossible or even unlikely that L21 could have reached Iberia in prehistoric times, although it doesn't look like it is going to be very common there. But when I maintained on another forum that L21 in Scandinavia could be "native Scandinavian," you went ballistic. Do you not see some irony here?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: vtilroe on March 20, 2009, 09:45:29 PM
By template I only mean a way of thinking that appears to be constricted by accepted views. I don't think any conspiracy is taking place. Nor do I think that the Irish are being picked on. I would say that in the case of Faux and U152 in Ireland that he certainly was looking for any way to keep native Irish from being U152. In this case I think it's more along the lines of "the U106+ can't be native Irish" because it doesn't fit common belief. I think that common belief may hold true in many cases, but I think it is likely that some U106+ reached Ireland before Celtic times there. It had over 1000 years to migrate there, and I think it did; even if in very smalll numbers.

I simply don't think people should be told they can't be this, or they must be this because of the accepted theories. There are exceptions to any "rule" especially when we are talking about the movement and spread of any subclade.

On the other forum, the Basque guy is already being told directly that he is probably descended from a migrating Briton in Historical times. I'm just saying that perhaps some L21+ migrated to Iberia in pre-Historical times, even if in small (maybe very small) numbers.

Thanks,  Miles

Funny, you neglected to mention that I also stated to the Basque guy that there could also be a nice population of L21 still unknown and hiding in Iberia, but after only 15 or so P312 guys in Iberia that have taken the L21 test, it hadn't shown up yet, and as far as exactly when his ancestor arrived - I couldn't even hazard a guess.  Please colour it for what it is.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: eochaidh on March 20, 2009, 10:28:10 PM
By template I only mean a way of thinking that appears to be constricted by accepted views. I don't think any conspiracy is taking place. Nor do I think that the Irish are being picked on. I would say that in the case of Faux and U152 in Ireland that he certainly was looking for any way to keep native Irish from being U152. In this case I think it's more along the lines of "the U106+ can't be native Irish" because it doesn't fit common belief. I think that common belief may hold true in many cases, but I think it is likely that some U106+ reached Ireland before Celtic times there. It had over 1000 years to migrate there, and I think it did; even if in very smalll numbers.

I simply don't think people should be told they can't be this, or they must be this because of the accepted theories. There are exceptions to any "rule" especially when we are talking about the movement and spread of any subclade.

On the other forum, the Basque guy is already being told directly that he is probably descended from a migrating Briton in Historical times. I'm just saying that perhaps some L21+ migrated to Iberia in pre-Historical times, even if in small (maybe very small) numbers.

Thanks,  Miles

Funny, you neglected to mention that I also stated to the Basque guy that there could also be a nice population of L21 still unknown and hiding in Iberia, but after only 15 or so P312 guys in Iberia that have taken the L21 test, it hadn't shown up yet, and as far as exactly when his ancestor arrived - I couldn't even hazard a guess.  Please colour it for what it is.
I wasn't even thinking of you, Vince, and I don't think I read your post. I was talking about either neatherhead or JA, I think. I'd have to go back and check.

I also was going to mention earlier that someone said that Tarin has 7 of 21 tested for L21 as postive, which is 25%, but I'm not sure whether that data is correct because it's second hand, so I left it out.

I don't think we could ever know exactly when his particular ancestor arrived, but I'm just saying L21+ could have spread to Iberia very early in its 3,500 year History.

Thanks,  Miles


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 21, 2009, 09:06:17 AM
If Robert Tarin has seven Iberians who are L21+, he hasn't told me about it, and we communicate by email on a pretty regular basis and on that very subject.

By the way, if you are counting all those with Hispanic surnames, whether they can get their paper trails across the Pond or not, there are a few more L21- like that in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. They are in the "R-P312* Colonial" category, and one of them (Ruiz) is in the "Unassigned Members" category: Figueroa, Melgoza, Vidal, Robles, Lizzaraga, Arzac, and Ruiz.

Those are in addition to the Iberian L21- on the R-P312* Map. Add to them the Iberians who belong to L21- subclades like R-M167 (SRY2627), R-M153, R-U106 and R-U152, and you get a broader picture.

It is possible, as Vince said above, that there could be some R-L21* hiding in Iberia, but it certainly doesn't seem like there could be much.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be some. Practically every European haplogroup and subclade is found in Iberia to some extent. There are even a couple of I1s in the Basque Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/BasqueDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults), after all.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on March 28, 2009, 05:05:50 AM
For L21 in Iberia there can be 3 good explanations:
1. Celtic migration late first millennium BC from the Rhine valley where L21 was likely to originate
2. Germanic migration in the 5th-6th century from the same area (Franks and Burgundians most likely, as Goths and Vandals were East German where L21 is less frequent)
3. I know that people here do not agree with me but if P312 originates from the Basque area, L21 mutation probably could arise before the Beaker migration northwards, thus Iberian L21s can be native there.

Present Iberian L21 can come from both the 1-2. and probably from the 3.version.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 28, 2009, 10:40:54 AM
For L21 in Iberia there can be 3 good explanations:
1. Celtic migration late first millennium BC from the Rhine valley where L21 was likely to originate
2. Germanic migration in the 5th-6th century from the same area (Franks and Burgundians most likely, as Goths and Vandals were East German where L21 is less frequent)
3. I know that people here do not agree with me but if P312 originates from the Basque area, L21 mutation probably could arise before the Beaker migration northwards, thus Iberian L21s can be native there.

Present Iberian L21 can come from both the 1-2. and probably from the 3.version.

1 and 2 are possibilities, but it isn't likely P312 originated with the Basques. What the fascination with the Basques is I don't know nor can I fathom.

Why the heck do they always seem to me made the measure of all things R1b1b2? Good grief! One would think they were the majority population of Europe rather than a tiny, rather odd minority.

I doubt that the first Basques were even R1b1b2 at all.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on March 30, 2009, 03:10:27 AM
I will argue with myself :-)

Pro: if you look at the subbranches of P312, then it gives the "Franco-Cantabrian region". It is a widely accepted view that a lineage (Y-DNA or even language family) tend to originate from the place where it is the most diverse. And all P312 downstream lineages are only found among the Basques. (Not to be misunderstood, I add that I do not mean P312 was in the LGM refuge but only around 3000 BC)

Contra: However a counterargument is that U-106 and P-312 together is the most diverse in the Rhineland therefore S-127 their common ancestor should have originated there. Now, it is quite impossible that P312* went down to the Pyrennees and then went back to the Rhineland where L-21 and U-152 likely appeared.

So the question is quite tricky...

If R1b1b2 was not Basque, then who would? I suppose we have only the I2-M26 people, but it is unlikely that they retained their language while around 85% of their male population was replaced by R1b1b2 folks.

I can't decide...


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 30, 2009, 09:30:50 AM
... What the fascination with the Basques is I don't know nor can I fathom.
Why the heck do they always seem to me made the measure of all things R1b1b2? Good grief! One would think they were the majority population of Europe rather than a tiny, rather odd minority....
Agreed, the Basques are not even the most numerous R-M269 people in Iberia.  I think we should spend more time on who the Celtiberians were and what clades they are, as well as the Galicians and the Catalonians.    If some group from Iberia is connected to Ireland (per the Milesian legend,) it would most likely be the Galicians, I think.   What clades are included in Galician populations? Does anyone know?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on March 30, 2009, 10:08:12 AM
I have the data from an Y-Iberia study:

However, the problem is that there were only 19 men tested in Galicia
5,3% being E3* (paleolithic)
10,5% being E-M81 (Berber)
10,5% being E-M123 (Neolithic?)
5,3% being E-M78 (Neolithic farmer)
5,3% being J1 (supposedly Arabic origin)
63,1% R1b: downstream M153 and M167 markers were tested, but not found among them

A better picture can emerge from Northern Portuguese (109 men), Leon (60 men) and Cantabrian (70 men) sample, as these regions also belong to the Celtiberian area:
R-M153 was found 1,4% in Cantabria and 0% elsewhere (Basque: 15,6%)
R-M167 was found 8,6% in Cantabria, 3,3% in Leon and 2,8% in N Portugal (Basque: 11,1%, Catalan 31% - in a 16-men sample)
R1b (xM153,M167) was 48,4% in Cantabria, 58,2% in Leon and 50,5% in N Portugal (Basque: 62,3%, 258 Andalusian: 52,7%).


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on March 30, 2009, 10:15:54 AM
The overall picture for R1b (including all downward SNPs):
89% Basque (sample: 45)
75% Catalan (s: 16)
63% Galician (s: 19)
61,5% Leon (s: 60)
58,4% Cantabria (s: 70)
57% Andalusia (s: 258)
53,3% North Portugal (s: 109)
52,4% Castilia (s: 21)

Therefore, it is not true that the Celtiberian areas have the highest M269 frequency. However, we cant be sure about the subgroups. We can expect higher frequency of L-21 and U-152 in the Celtiberian areas.
The Irish Milesian theory can probably be justified if there are M-167 people in Ireland, as this is an Iberian marker. I dont know if there are any. Have you any infos?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 30, 2009, 11:25:28 AM
The overall picture for R1b (including all downward SNPs):
89% Basque (sample: 45)
75% Catalan (s: 16)
63% Galician (s: 19)
61,5% Leon (s: 60)
58,4% Cantabria (s: 70)
57% Andalusia (s: 258)
53,3% North Portugal (s: 109)
52,4% Castilia (s: 21)

Therefore, it is not true that the Celtiberian areas have the highest M269 frequency. However, we cant be sure about the subgroups. We can expect higher frequency of L-21 and U-152 in the Celtiberian areas.
The Irish Milesian theory can probably be justified if there are M-167 people in Ireland, as this is an Iberian marker. I dont know if there are any. Have you any infos?
I went to the R-P312 and subclades project for to look for R-M167 and R-M153.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?section=news
I don't see much there as far as an Irish-Iberian connection.

I do see someone from England and someone from Belgium that are R-M167.  No one from Ireland.

R-M167
153   27573   THOMAS Atte MEDE born ca.1360, Wraxall,Somerset, E
154   N42387   Jean Vernade 1659 Bourges (France)
155   72456   Rael-Osca, Alonso
156   84257   Pietro Giliberti, b.c. 1733 Palermo, Sicily
158   N11769   george r
159   E2318   Cornille Wangermez ~1620 Beclers 7532 Belgium

As far as R-M153, I don't see anyone from Ireland or Great Britain.

R-M153
147   97776   Santiago Sallaberry, b. 30 Dec 1867, Puerto Rico
148   85359   Joannés Sallaberry, 1701-1766, Guiche, France
149   N66037   Miguel Bravo, Leon,Spain c1720
150   113915   Jose Monesterio y Sagastiechea Jaureguzar, b. 1690
151   88532   Antonio Guerra, b.c. 1603, Llanes, Asturias, Spain
152   76019   Marcos de Aguirregoitia (Icaza) España,1600(Spain)

Some are looking at R-P312* as a genetic connection between Ireland and Iberia.  I am cautious about that though, as R-P312* isn't really a subclade in and of itself, but a cluster of people underneath R-P312 for whom no downstream SNP's have yet been discovered.

Are there off-modal based clusters under R-P312* that cross Ireland and Iberia?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: vtilroe on March 30, 2009, 07:40:01 PM
If R1b1b2 was not Basque, then who would? I suppose we have only the I2-M26 people, but it is unlikely that they retained their language while around 85% of their male population was replaced by R1b1b2 folks.

I can't decide...

It's a puzzle, for sure.  For all we know, the Y-haplotype of the original Basques is now completely extinct, having been completely replaced by R-M269, R-P312, etc.

But then we don't even truly know where the Basque language came from in the first place.  Maybe it was a comparatively recent local invention.  Do we have any real evidence how old it is? Is its reputation as the oldest language in Europe assumed merely because of its disconnect with IE?

Not to troll or anything, but maybe all the whole Basque angle ever was, was a giant red herring.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on March 31, 2009, 03:06:45 AM
The Basques are a difficult issue.
As for the language, it has very ancient features like the "ergative case", which is present in Europe only in the Georgian language. The ancient Hg G is most frequent among the South Caucasians therefore the Georgian language can also be considered as an old type of language.

I think we can rule out that Basque was a local invention, it should be more ancient in the area then IE. Now, the question is if Basque is the remnant of an LGM-language present in the Iberian refuge (Hg G, Hg I2a1-M26, and other ancient Hgs) or the language of arriving R1b people who were not yet Indo-Europeanized.
The neolithic origin (E-M78) of Basque can be ruled out as it has no "Afro-Asiatic" features, and no relationship to other neolithic languages (Eteo-Cretan, Eteo-Cypriot, and probably Etruscan) was found.

No post-Celtic non-IE migration to the Basque region is documented, and already Roman sources tell them Vascones (B and V are the same in Spanish).


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on March 31, 2009, 03:15:07 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG)

You can see here the Map of Iberia in 200 BC.
Iberian language group is presumably connected to R-M167, Aquitanian (=Basque) to R-M153 and R-M65. Celtic should be R-U152 and R-L21 (however, we expect more U-152 as Celtiberians are connected to La Tene)

The Pre-Celtic group consists of many "ancient Hgs" as I already noted before, Hg BC*, F*, E3* was found in Northern Portugal in 1-1 men, Hg I2a1-M26 in 2 men and Hg G in 9 men out of a 109 men sample.
Hg I2a1-M26 was also found 19% of Castilians of Central Spain (sample: 21 men)
This is exactly the area of the "pre-Celtic Blue" above

Turdetanians are a likely remnant of the Neolithic Iberian population (in Iberia, E-M78 has the highest frequency in Andalusia: 7,7% in 258 men, and Los Millares is also found in this area)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 31, 2009, 04:53:27 PM
... Iberian language group is presumably connected to R-M167..........  Celtic should be R-U152 and R-L21 (however, we expect more U-152 as Celtiberians are connected to La Tene)....
What is the reasoning behind connecting R-M167 to the Iberian language?
My understanding is that the Celtiberians were more connected with the Hallstatt culture, not the La Tene.   I don't think anyone is saying all Celtics were R-U152 or R-L21, are they?   Perhaps you can make the case that Proto-Celtics were primarily R-P312.
Does anyone have a % frequency chart for R-M167, R-M153, R-P312* by region in Spain?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 01, 2009, 02:50:18 AM
Hi all
I am the basque guy L-21+.
I think my test is significant in that I can trace my paternal line back to the 14th century in the Basque Country, so any recent migration can be ruled out.
For that same reason i think that more L-21+ can be found in the Basque Country in the large P-312 group of population that is not M-153 or M-157 and that still makes more than half the group and almost half the whole population.
However, a very important point I would like to make is that Basque Country is not at all representative of Iberia as a whole, on the contrary Adams et alii (2008) shows that it is quite different and in turn almost identical to Gascony.
So, I would not be surprised is L-21+ turns in significative numbers among Basques and still in very low numbers in iberia as a whole.
IMO when talking about genetics, Baque Country and Gascony, as far as we know, should be treated as a separated province, differentr from Iberia and France.
I am not talking here about the Franco-Cantabrian refuge theory here, though, rather from amore recent historical perspective, it would prove the late arrival of the Basques to modern Spanish Basque Country from the north of the Pyrenees, as archaeological findings strongly support.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 01, 2009, 03:01:14 AM
What is the reasoning behind connecting R-M167 to the Iberian language?
My understanding is that the Celtiberians were more connected with the Hallstatt culture, not the La Tene.   I don't think anyone is saying all Celtics were R-U152 or R-L21, are they?   Perhaps you can make the case that Proto-Celtics were primarily R-P312.

I connected M-167 because it seems to be the most frequent there, in Catalonia. Of course if P312 is proto-Celt then M-167 would be Celtiberian.
With Hallstatt, you are right. It fits well into the hypothesis (see the origin of L21 topic) that Hallstatt-period migrations are connected with Q-Celtic and La Tene migrations with P-Celtic.

I think we can narrow the question of P-312 on two possible scenarios:

1. P-312 originated in the Southern Germany/Austria/Czech Republic area, more ir less the later territory of the Boii tribe.
If this is true, then
P-312* and possibly M-153 and M-65 migrated with the Early Beakers. The language is a big problem in this case (Basque issue)
L-21 should be the Q-Celtic Hallstatt migration to the Northwest (Gaelic)
M-167 the Q-Celtic Hallstatt migration to the Southwest (Celtiberian)
U-152 the P-Celtic La Tene migration to the West (Gaul, Brythonic)

2. P-312 originated around the Pyrennees/Massif Central (South France) and migrated throughout Western Europe as Beakers (P-312*)
Basques are the remnant of the early P-312 population plus the new lineages M-65 and M-153 occured
M167 is then Iberian
L21 and U-152 occured in P-312* men who reached the Rhine valley and lived in Southern Germany. Then Indo-Europeans mixed with them from the East and proto-Celtic language was born. Then the above (p.1) migration of L-21 (Hallstatt, Q) and U-152 (La Tene, P) happened, this time the Celtiberian marker should be L-21...

It is not so easy to decide which one is valid.
I think that would be an achievement if we can agree that one of these is valid and no one has a third scenario...



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 01, 2009, 09:21:21 AM
Hi all
I am the basque guy L-21+.
I think my test is significant in that I can trace my paternal line back to the 14th century in the Basque Country, so any recent migration can be ruled out.
For that same reason i think that more L-21+ can be found in the Basque Country in the large P-312 group of population that is not M-153 or M-157 and that still makes more than half the group and almost half the whole population.
However, a very important point I would like to make is that Basque Country is not at all representative of Iberia as a whole, on the contrary Adams et alii (2008) shows that it is quite different and in turn almost identical to Gascony.
So, I would not be surprised is L-21+ turns in significative numbers among Basques and still in very low numbers in iberia as a whole.
IMO when talking about genetics, Baque Country and Gascony, as far as we know, should be treated as a separated province, differentr from Iberia and France.
I am not talking here about the Franco-Cantabrian refuge theory here, though, rather from amore recent historical perspective, it would prove the late arrival of the Basques to modern Spanish Basque Country from the north of the Pyrenees, as archaeological findings strongly support.
Thanks for joining in.  We often hear of Irish folklore but I don't know the Basque story.  Do the Basques have an "origin" legend?   I know they are supposed to be from Gascony.  Is there any history on how they got there?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 01, 2009, 10:12:47 AM
Not really Mike, Basque was not a written language until the 16th century, so Basque folklore is very limited, only glimpses of pre Christian times in some tales, but there is no legendary cicle.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2009, 07:32:25 AM
It would be nice if a large sample of Basques was tested for all the R1b SNPs. Then we would know more. We have a few guys of Basque descent in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Thus far I know of only one man of Basque ancestry who is L21+. The rest are L21-. As for Gascony, thus far that area has yet to produce even one L21+, although there are a few L21- guys there.

The fact that L21 has shown up in one man of Basque descent may not be all that significant. There are a couple of I1 guys in the Basque Project, too, after all, and a number of other men of various y haplogroups.

I think it is a distinct possibility that the original Basques came from Anatolia or even the Caucasus and were once mostly G2. Basque appears to have a very ancient connection to some of the Caucasian languages, like Georgian (which Jafety mentioned), in that it is an agglutinative language. There are still a few G2 guys in the Basque Project.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Basques have the 13910 T lactase persistence allele in excess of 93% according to a recent study (I'll have to find the name of the study again if anyone is interested). That allele is believed to have arisen less than 10k years ago out on the Eurasian steppe. The level of Basque lactase persistence is inconsistent with their supposed status as some sort of Paleolithic isolate.

I could be surprised, but I really don't expect much L21 among the Basques. Some may turn up elsewhere in Iberia, but I don't think there will be much of that either.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 03, 2009, 07:51:30 AM
It would be nice if a large sample of Basques was tested for all the R1b SNPs. Then we would know more. We have a few guys of Basque descent in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Thus far I know of only one man of Basque ancestry who is L21+. The rest are L21-. As for Gascony, thus far that area has yet to produce even one L21+, although there are a few L21- guys there.

The fact that L21 has shown up in one man of Basque descent may not be all that significant. There are a couple of I1 guys in the Basque Project, too, after all, and a number of other men of various y haplogroups.

I think it is a distinct possibility that the original Basques came from Anatolia or even the Caucasus and were once mostly G2. Basque appears to have a very ancient connection to some of the Caucasian languages, like Georgian (which Jafety mentioned), in that it is an agglutinative language. There are still a few G2 guys in the Basque Project.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Basques have the 13910 T lactase persistence allele in excess of 93% according to a recent study (I'll have to find the name of the study again if anyone is interested). That allele is believed to have arisen less than 10k years ago out on the Eurasian steppe. The level of Basque lactase persistence is inconsistent with their supposed status as some sort of Paleolithic isolate.

I could be surprised, but I really don't expect much L21 among the Basques. Some may turn up elsewhere in Iberia, but I don't think there will be much of that either.
So far, I think I am the first person of Basque ancestry to have tested for L-21+ at all.
The Basque project is badly needing a dep reorganization, there are plenty of non Basque surnames included, and only 13 people out of 81 that can trace their origins to some place in the Basque Country.
About the G Haplogroup, 6 people are positive for G, 3 of them have no Basque surnames (Arean, Trebs and Navarro), 2 others don´t show their origin (Mendoza and Aguirre) while Borinaga stated that he could link his family to an old Byzantine family.
The link between Georgian and Basque is discarded by most scientifics and in any case is not proven, the ergative is shared by other languages like ancient Maya, who I guess no one has ever linked to Georgian.
I agree with the LP allele, I know the study by Sabri Enattah et alii (I guess that is the one you talked about). I myself have that LP (I drink every day and I love it), but that is not surprising, my family has been growing cattle for at least the last 600 years, it would be odd not to have that adaptation, but in any case I wasn´t arguing for the Paleolithic origen, on the contrary, my point was a very recent arrival to the Spanish Basque Country from north of the Pyrenees. As for the ultimate origin pof Basque/Aquitanians, you can only guess.
I could be surprised, but I expect a reasonable ammount of L21+ among Basques and in Gascony.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 03, 2009, 07:53:11 AM
Yes, if Basque was not the R-P312 language then it could only be the LGM language of G2, I-M26 and other ancient groups. But the problem is still there that how could their preserve the language when 85-90% of the males are R1b1b2? In other place a minority elite was enough to replace the language or at least "creolize" it. Not an easy case to solve...


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 03, 2009, 08:10:42 AM
Yes, if Basque was not the R-P312 language then it could only be the LGM language of G2, I-M26 and other ancient groups. But the problem is still there that how could their preserve the language when 85-90% of the males are R1b1b2? In other place a minority elite was enough to replace the language or at least "creolize" it. Not an easy case to solve...

The answer to that question could be the Basques' ancient matrilocal marriage tradition, in which the husband and his bride lived with the bride's family. Thus the male would be forced to use the bride's language, yet it would be his y dna that got passed along to his male children.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 03, 2009, 11:18:51 AM

The answer to that question could be the Basques' ancient matrilocal marriage tradition, in which the husband and his bride lived with the bride's family. Thus the male would be forced to use the bride's language, yet it would be his y dna that got passed along to his male children.

Matrilocal marriage among Basques is just a myth without any firm evidence, in fact there is much more solid evidence for matrilocal traditions among Celtic peoples of Northern Spain, especially for the Gallaecii and their warrior wives.
In any case, if a people has a matrilocal tradition their Y-DNA does not disappear, the men of that people also get married and have children.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 03, 2009, 02:33:48 PM
... In any case, if a people has a matrilocal tradition their Y-DNA does not disappear, the men of that people also get married and have children.
I understand you challenge if the Basques had a matrilocal heritage.  I don't know.

However, your statement that the "Y-DNA does not disappear" is irrelevant.  The point of the other side of the argument is not there is no Y-DNA continuity or expansion, but that in a matrilocal society the men would likely have to learn their wives' language.  This then would explain why a man that might appear to have Indo-European ancestral heritage, would have children who speak a non-IE language (like what the Basques speak).  If ancient Basque predecessor society was matrilocal then that explains why don't don't speak an IE language today even though the men came from the homeland of PIE, likely the Pontic Steppes.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 06, 2009, 02:44:58 AM
I think the solution for the Basque case -- if we assume P312 and U106 had their homeland in the Rhine area -- should be that Basque P-312 lineages spread from the homeland before the others, and the other P312 lineages got the IE language later. This is very possible, whether you accept Kurganization (R1a1) theory or the metal age spread from Anatolia (J2) for the origin of IE languages.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 06, 2009, 08:14:14 AM
I think the solution for the Basque case -- if we assume P312 and U106 had their homeland in the Rhine area -- should be that Basque P-312 lineages spread from the homeland before the others, and the other P312 lineages got the IE language later. This is very possible, whether you accept Kurganization (R1a1) theory or the metal age spread from Anatolia (J2) for the origin of IE languages.


I don't accept either of those. I think the Basques became mostly R1b1b2 through admixture, but even if they didn't, just because a small minority society speaks a non-IE language does not justify generalizing from it to the entire early R1b1b2 population.

I have never understood the idea that because the Basques are non-IE speakers ALL of Western Europe must have once been as they are. That makes no sense to me unless one accepts first the baseless assumption that the Basques represent the original Paleolithic population of Western Europe, which they clearly do NOT.

I ask you, which of the following makes more sense, that the vast majority of Europe was once as the Basques are but underwent an incredible major shift in language and culture via some sort of mysterious process of "osmosis", or that a small minority population became over the millennia like most of its neighbors in its y dna via admixture?

And even if the Basques always were mostly R1b1b2 (which I doubt), what justifies the idea that the rest of Europe's R1b1b2s once spoke a Vasconic language?

There are millions of R1as who speak Turkic languages. Perhaps all R1as were once Turkic speaking but became Indo-Europeanized via contact with the West? (I don't believe that, but it makes as much as or more sense than the Basque idea.)

And what exactly is behind the R1a-is-uniquely-Indo-European idea? I'll tell you what. Spencer Wells and some other geneticists found a lot of R1a in Eastern Europe and in India and thought, "Wow! India and part of Europe! Must be kurgans a la Gimbutas!"

What they overlooked was the overwhelmingly Indo-European zone that is Western Europe. Not a whole lot of R1a there, and what is there can be attributed to the vikings in Britain and to the Slavonic migrations of the 6th and 7th centuries AD. So they had to invent a mysterious process of Indo-Europeanization for Western Europe, but India got Indo-Europeanized by actual R1a kurgans!

Red flags should have been popping up, but if the "experts" say it, most folks fall in line. Nothing authorizes like authority, I guess.

The answer is simpler, I think. Look at the distribution of R1. It is remarkably like the distribution of Indo-European languages. Then look at the major division of Indo-European languages into Centum (western) and Satem (eastern). Why is it that split mirrors the division in R1 between R1b and R1a?

And if anyone spoke IE first, why shouldn't it have been the R1bs, since Centum is believed to have been the older and original form of Indo-European, and R1b, as much as R1a, is thought to have arisen in Central or Western Asia?

It is also possible that Renfrew was at least partly right, and IE was first spread by farmers - R1b1b2s probably - out of Anatolia, who spread Indo-European to their R1a neighbors, who then spread it to the East.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 06, 2009, 10:15:40 AM
And even if the Basques always were mostly R1b1b2 (which I doubt), what justifies the idea that the rest of Europe's R1b1b2s once spoke a Vasconic language?

There are millions of R1as who speak Turkic languages. Perhaps all R1as were once Turkic speaking but became Indo-Europeanized via contact with the West? (I don't believe that, but it makes as much as or more sense than the Basque idea.)

It is also possible that Renfrew was at least partly right, and IE was first spread by farmers - R1b1b2s probably - out of Anatolia, who spread Indo-European to their R1a neighbors, who then spread it to the East.

I do not accept the R1a theory either...

My point:
1. Basque uses a number system based on 20s. Most Indo-European languages do not. However, Celts do and French retained this archaic feature (see 80 = quatre-vingt = four times twenty or 70 = soixante-dix = sixty-ten). Numerals are very basic concept in a language, which changes rarely. Think on that if you learn a foreign language very well and even does not have to "translate" words in your head when speaking, you still would count in your mother tongue.

2. We do not know any IE language before the Celts in Western Europe. Celtic language spread is more-or-less safely put into the Hallstatt-La Tene period (1200 BC on).
R1b1b2 is way older than that date, I also favour the neolithic theory, as Linear Pottery reached the Rhine Valley around the time of MRCA of U-106 and P312.

3. R1a cant be proto-IE. If R1a was Proto-Slavic then it would be quite nonsense that many Finn-Permian peoples have more than 50% R1a and still speak non-Slavic language (Finnish contra Slavic language border was much southern around 1000 AD than today, even the Moscow area was inhabited by Finn-Permians). Therefore R1a can be linked with Uralic migration and not IE. Of course, later spread of R1a happened with Indo-Europeans when these nomadic/hunter-gatherer peoples were affected by agriculturalist IE speakers: this happened in Ukraine (Slavs) and in the Afghanistan area (Indo-Aryans).

Thus my point is that R1b1b2 came from Anatolia/Levant area together with E-M78 people to the Balkans. Our R1b1b2 ancestors reached the upper Danube-middle Rhine area and became more and more popolous while spoke a language stg like Basque (Karp means mountain in Basque as far as I know - compare Carpathian mtns.) In the Beaker age they started to migrate to W.Europe. Then IE metal workers introduced late Bronze/early Iron age (J2 connection) from the Balkans somewhere in the Boii area (Czech R., Austria, Bavaria - Hallstatt culture). From the J2 metallists (speaking Thracian or Illyrian) and local R1b1b2 agriculturalists, the Celtic language was born. The other is known already.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 06, 2009, 10:40:23 AM


I do not accept the R1a theory either...

My point:
1. Basque uses a number system based on 20s. Most Indo-European languages do not. However, Celts do and French retained this archaic feature (see 80 = quatre-vingt = four times twenty or 70 = soixante-dix = sixty-ten). Numerals are very basic concept in a language, which changes rarely. Think on that if you learn a foreign language very well and even does not have to "translate" words in your head when speaking, you still would count in your mother tongue.

Where did you hear that? I have read that the Celts used a decimal system. Besides, even if true, that is scant evidence - very scant - on which to base some sort of idea that the Celts are really clandestine Basques. Twenty is two times ten. Are you saying the notion of multiplying two times ten and then using multiples of twenty never occurred to anyone except the Basques? You've convinced me!

Anyway, that has little bearing on y dna. No one, I think, is denying that there were  people in Europe before the R1b1b2s/Indo-Europeans. One could learn and use his mother's counting system as easily as (perhaps more easily than) his father's.

2. We do not know any IE language before the Celts in Western Europe. Celtic language spread is more-or-less safely put into the Hallstatt-La Tene period (1200 BC on).
R1b1b2 is way older than that date, I also favour the neolithic theory, as Linear Pottery reached the Rhine Valley around the time of MRCA of U-106 and P312.

We certainly have no reason to believe Western Europe spoke a Vasconic language before the Celts arrived. In fact, there is all sorts of evidence of non-Vasconic languages in W. Europe that were also not Celtic.

3. R1a cant be proto-IE. If R1a was Proto-Slavic then it would be quite nonsense that many Finn-Permian peoples have more than 50% R1a and still speak non-Slavic language (Finnish contra Slavic language border was much southern around 1000 AD than today, even the Moscow area was inhabited by Finn-Permians). Therefore R1a can be linked with Uralic migration and not IE. Of course, later spread of R1a happened with Indo-Europeans when these nomadic/hunter-gatherer peoples were affected by agriculturalist IE speakers: this happened in Ukraine (Slavs) and in the Afghanistan area (Indo-Aryans).

Thus my point is that R1b1b2 came from Anatolia/Levant area together with E-M78 people to the Balkans. Our R1b1b2 ancestors reached the upper Danube-middle Rhine area and became more and more popolous while spoke a language stg like Basque (Karp means mountain in Basque as far as I know - compare Carpathian mtns.) In the Beaker age they started to migrate to W.Europe. Then IE metal workers introduced late Bronze/early Iron age (J2 connection) from the Balkans somewhere in the Boii area (Czech R., Austria, Bavaria - Hallstatt culture). From the J2 metallists (speaking Thracian or Illyrian) and local R1b1b2 agriculturalists, the Celtic language was born. The other is known already.

I think R1b1b2 came earlier than E-M78 and pushed farther north and west. E-M78 came later, which explains why it didn't spread as far or make as much of an impact. I also do not believe that either E-M78  or J was Indo-European speaking, not at first anyway.

Linking karp (if in fact that does mean "mountain" in Vasconic) to the Carpathians sounds pretty shaky to me. One wonders how the Pyrenees missed out on that name, and I know at least in Russian the Carpathians are called the Karpat, with the stress on the second syllable.

There is no real evidence that Vasconic was once as widespread as you seem to think.

The weakest link in what you wrote is the idea that J2 spread Indo-European. I see absolutely nothing to commend that idea. The bulk of the world's J2s speak Afro-Asiatic languages (especially Semitic). While they were at it they also invented Indo-European? And they speak mainly Semitic languages in their putative homeland and heartland. The distribution of IE languages does not correspond to the distribution of J2 the way it does to the distribution of R1.

Your ideas are worth considering, but I think there are too many problems with them.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 06, 2009, 10:57:48 AM
Here's what I got on the etymology of the name Carpathian:

Quote
Carpathian 

mountain range of Eastern Europe, from Thracian Gk. Karpates oros, lit. "Rocky Mountain;" related to Albanian karpe "rock."

That came from this site: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Carpathian (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Carpathian)

So, at least one source says the origin is related to the Albanian word for rock rather than the Vasconic word for mountain.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 06, 2009, 11:18:12 AM
Here is what Dr. John Koch says about the Celtic languages in his book, Atlas for Celtic Studies (page 6):

Quote
The Ancient Celtic languages may be termed 'Old Indo-European' languages in that they generally seem to have preserved the distribution of vowels and consonants and the inflexional categories of the reconstructed Indo-European proto-language. In this, they broadly resemble Greek, Latin, and Sanskrit, and other attested Indo-European languages of the ancient period.

I searched the book in vain for any mention of a Vasconic influence on the Celtic languages, and I don't remember ever reading of such an influence in any of the other books I've read on the Celts.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 07, 2009, 03:41:54 AM
I am happy to see that debate is open on the IE issue.

First of all, I want to stress that I dont say that all Neolithic farmers in the Danube valley/Balkans were Basques or spoke the Basque language as we know it. I think there was a language group spreading from the Rhine to Albania/Bulgaria where Neolithic farmers spoke a language whose closest remnant today (not the same, as it was influenced by Mesolithic peoples of the Pyrennees area) is Basque and we can find traces of it in the Celtic languages and also Albanian as you pointed out in relation with Karpe/Carpathians. One of this features is the counting system based on 20s. Proto-IE was decimal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_numerals which means that 20 = "two-tens" or 11 = one on ten or ten plus one etc. However, Celtic languages, French and also Albanian has a number system based on 20s or at least some traces of this (Germanic languages have 12-counting system, eleven and twelwe + elf,zwölf in German are the evidence: that is why we use "dozen" and 13 is an "unlucky" number)
See it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_numerals
10 = deg; 20 = ugain (not dau ddeg, which is in Patagonian Welsh as this page describe it) and 40 = deugain etc.
There are traces of this vigesimal counting system in Albanian: 10 = dhjete; 20 = njezet; 40 = dyzet

I think it would be very interesting to collect more data on those Celtic and Albanian words which seem to be related to Basque words of the similar meaning.

With the later arrival of E-M78 you are probably right, I cant decide if they came at the same time or differently. In NW Wales, E-M78 was found 37% in a town, which is very interesting.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 07, 2009, 04:15:29 AM
Now, on the J2 issue.
It is very hard to present all arguments here as our theory (we have been working on it with one of my friends, who even did not test himself not to be "biased" until we cant find a good explanation for all Hgs and language families) as it is very complex, taking into account all haplogroups.

First, every researcher on this issue should rely on MRCA times which is very cosy evidence and changes many times (as we have seen with R1b). Estimates for J2 are ranging from 15 kya to 7 kya. However, MRCA could have appeared many years before a migration started. For example, Hg H is very old (around 30 kya), but it does not mean that Roma people came to Europe in Paleolithic times... So we can not be sure, but we place J2 expansion to around 5000-4000 BC, Anatolia.

Second, the popular misunderstanding about J2 is the Semitic connection. J2 has nothing to do with Afro-Asiatic speakers. J2 is the most frequent (over 20%) in Anatolian Turkish, Kurds, Armenians, Iranians, Greeks, Albanians and Central/South Italians. It is also frequent in the Fertile Crescent (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq) where now Semitic languages are spoken, but are a result of a historically attested migration from the South. Sumerians for example did not spoke Semitic (although neither IE).

Semitic peoples are connected to J1, which is also very frequent in the Northeast Caucasus. Therefore, we argue that J1 peoples spoke NE Caucasian (Hurro-Urartuan included), and were later "Afro-Asiatized" by Hg E migrants from Egypt. E-M123 is the likely candidate for this move.

IE homeland should have been west from the NE Cauc. languages, as Kurdish has Hurrian, Armenian has Urartuan (comp. to Ararat) substrates. This puts IE into Anatolia. We think that IE languages spread with metallurgy, from around 3000 BC. This makes a mix of Renfrew (Anatolian origin) and Gimbutas (Bronze Age), but disproves the neolithic spread and the Steppe homeland.
Anatolia is absolutely in the center of IE languages if you look on the map, and the earliest branch is Anatolian/Hittite, so everything fits well.

As you can read in V. Gordon Childe: The Dawn of European civilization, the most striking difference between Neolithic and "Metallist" societies is interaction/trade. Childe thinks that Neolithic peoples are more-or-less self-supplying of food, clothes and instruments, and only engage in trade for luxuries. This lack of regular interaction between communities (towns) causes a relatively quick language divergence, resulting in many dialects and later seperate languages. This process is strengthened by geographical features, see for example the Caucasus or New Guinea (where neighbouring villagers do not understand each other)

With the introduction of metal however, trade grows, as metallurgists should buy food from the peasants and peasants buy tools. Those people, who has a monopoly in metallurgy and thus weapon manufacturing, can easily dominate "peaceful peasant communities". That is why Neolithic is seen as egalitarian and less patriarchal than later ages. If elites are emerging, the dominated population would take their language over, because the language of trade and prestige is that language. I think IE spread mostly with trade plus with some elite dominance. (to be continued)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 07, 2009, 04:33:10 AM
IE thus spread both westwards and eastwards out of Anatolia. The Caucasus range has blocked the northern expansion/probably the Caucasians learned the metal-making process quickly, without taking the language over. Southward migration was blocked by the Semitic migration from the South.

After this, we would argue that some sort of "proto-European" language was formed in Thrace, what is now Bulgaria, being the ancestor of every European IE lineage (probably save for Greek). Greek and Armenian are often connected to each other and to Indo-Iranian (see Graeco-Aryan theory). I am not a Greek expert thus cant decide whether Greek was included or not.

Metal use spread through the Balkan-Danubian complex, ranging from the Baden culture (Austria-Czech Rep-W Hungary) to Troy. We think this was the place where the current branches of IE were formed. The western branch was Celto-Italic-Albanian, while the eastern Thraco-Cymmerian-Balto-Slavic.
Language drift of course affects metallurgist societies as well, thus these branches were separated later. A second wave of expansion after the Bronze Age, was in the Iron Age, when people on the brinks of IE area started to expand (Celts, Slavs, Aryans). Germanic was a result of creolization of an IE (presumably Celtic) elite and strong mesolithic population (I1, I2b) based on the Germanic substrate hypothesis.

This also implies that J2 in Britain is not the result of Roman soldiers but Celts, I would risk to say druids, as an elite strata of Celtic society. Of course the main body of Celts was R1b1b2, mainly L21 and U152.

Now, this post is too long already, I finish.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 07, 2009, 08:15:57 AM
I think you are making too much of a small thing. There is no real evidence that the Vasconic language was ever widespread or that it had an impact on Celtic or any other language.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 07, 2009, 08:18:43 AM
I think you are very much mistaken about J2, Jafety. It is very common among Semitic speakers and much less common among non-Semitic speakers.

Check out its distribution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.svg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.svg)

There is nothing whasoever to connect it to the spread of Indo-European. The movement of J2 was FROM the Semitic-speaking Near East to other locations, including Southern Europe, and not the other way around.

The script Linear A found on Crete and still undeciphered is believed to represent a Semitic language. The incoming Myceneans introduced Mycenean Greek and produced Linear B, which was used to write in Greek. The point is the Semites had spread to Crete and the northern shore of the Mediterranean but acquired Indo-European languages when they were overcome by the arrival of the (non-J2) Indo-Europeans from the North.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 07, 2009, 08:22:46 AM
... IE homeland should have been west from the NE Cauc. languages, as Kurdish has Hurrian, Armenian has Urartuan (comp. to Ararat) substrates. This puts IE into Anatolia. .....
Why do you say the IE homeland should have been west from the NE Caucasian languages?   Author David Anthony makes a good case that is north, in the Pontic Steppes.  What is your rationale for having originated in Anatolia?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 07, 2009, 10:11:01 AM
The idea that J2 spread Indo-European is baseless. As I said, the putative homeland of J2 - the Fertile Crescent - is overwhelmingly Semitic speaking and has been for untold millennia. The notion that Indo-European arose from within an overwhelmingly Semitic region and milieu strains credibility beyond the breaking point. It's silly.

J2 is extremely infrequent in Europe outside Italy and the Balkans, and even there it declines rapidly as one moves north from the Mediterranean.

There is no evidence whatsoever that metallurgy was the vehicle through which Indo-European was spread or that it was J2s who spread metal-working into Europe or at any rate beyond the Mediterranean region.

Use common sense. If a craftsman moves into an area to ply his trade, the majority population doesn't struggle to learn his language in order to buy his goods. Instead he learns their language in order to sell his goods and survive.

The idea that Indo-European was spread by J2 craftsmen is ridiculous.

It's rather funny actually: you find a small minority population (the Basques) that is non-IE speaking and generalize from it to the untold millions of IE-speaking R1b1b2s. With J2s, however, you do just exactly the opposite. Untold millions of them are non-IE (Semitic) speaking, yet you make them the authors of Indo-European!

Good grief!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 08, 2009, 02:56:00 AM
Sorry I can´t follow this interesting debate daily.

To Mike
My point was that even if Basques have a matrilocal/exogamous system, Basque males would marry as well, so if they carried an exotic Haplogroup, some trace would be left in the original population and in their neighbours. However, as you said, my main point was that there is no evidence of Basque matrilocal tradition.
The myth about Basque matriarchic system has its origin in the assumption of Basques as the original population of Europe. Then, following Gimbutas, some anthopologists considered that the Basque should have a matriarchic society. However there is no trace of such a system, on the contrary, Basque society is strongly patriarchic from the earliest sources, but as there are strong evidence from ancient and early medieval sources about a matrilineal and matrilocal organization among their Celtic neighbours in Northern Spain, those anthopologists thought that it should be a Basque influence, and an indirect prove of Basque matriarchy. All very speculative, to say the least.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 08, 2009, 03:23:55 AM
Why do you say the IE homeland should have been west from the NE Caucasian languages?   Author David Anthony makes a good case that is north, in the Pontic Steppes.  What is your rationale for having originated in Anatolia?

Linguists only state that NE Caucasian and proto-IE were close to each other, they had regional contact. Of course if someone supports the Kurgan-R1a theory, that would be north of them. If someone supports the Anatolian theory, then it would be Eastern Anatolia (whether he thinks R1b1b2 or J2 as origin)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 08, 2009, 03:43:24 AM
I think you are very much mistaken about J2, Jafety. It is very common among Semitic speakers and much less common among non-Semitic speakers.

OK, I will list some J2 data here (from different studies):
I. Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) speakers:

Lebanon 25-30%
Syria, Palestine 15-17%
Jewish 23-28% (however, Jewish even have R1b1b2 around 20%)
Iraq: 22%
North African Arab: 10-12%
Bukhara (Central Asian) Arab: 17%

II. Indo-European peoples:
In Europe

Spain: 4-8%
France: 13%
Italy (mainland): 20-29%
Sicily: 17%
Sardinia: 5-10%
Albanian: 20-24%
Greek: 20-21%
Macedonia: 12-25%
Croatian: 5-6%
Czech-Slovak: 9%
Ukrainian: 6-7%
Russian: 4-8%
Polish: 1%
Bavarian German: 5%
Frisian: 1-6%
English: 0-6%

Outside Europe:

Armenians: 24%
South Ossetians: 24%
Iranians: 21-25%
Kurds: 18-28%
Parsi (Zoroaster follower living in India): 38%
Indo-Aryan speakers in Pakistan: 6-20%
Indo-Aryan castes in India: 12-14%
Tajiks (Central Asia): 9-31%

Other areas which were IE speaking historically:
Turkey: 18-40%
Uyghurs (Tocharian area): 20%
Uzbekistan: 10-16%



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 08, 2009, 03:53:36 AM
Now, if you carefully look at the numbers, you can see, that J2 is more frequent in "core" IE populations than in Semitic. And all Semitic areas could get it from Turkey or Iran as they were part of IE empires (the Hittite, Byzantine and Persian empire). Both the highest frequency and the central point of distribution points on Kurdistan/East Turkey area.
It is around 20% in every "core IE" population, namely Italian, Greek, Albanian, Armenian, Anatolian (Turkish), Iranian, Tocharian; plus enough for an elite dominance model conquest of India. The 5-10% range in the supposed Celtic homeland (Bavaria-Czech Rep.) is again enough for an elite-dominance, as is 6-8% in Ukraine and Russia for Slavic speakers.
According to my theory, Celtic and Balto-Slavic were not spread mainly by J2 people, only influenced R1b1b2 and R1a1 in the Boii and Ukrainian area, respectively. If German really is a "creole" of Celtic and a Mesolithic language, it is not surprising that J2 is very low or missing there.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 08, 2009, 05:25:01 AM
To Jafety
The Basque word for Mountain is Mendi, I don´t know where did you get the word Karp, but the only word similar in Basque I can think of is Karpe, a small bush with yellow flowers


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 08, 2009, 05:26:10 AM
Another argument in favour of the J2's spread from Anatolia is the distribution of J1. It's frequency is the biggest in Yemen (approx 80%) and Northeast Caucasus (60-70%). It is also frequent in-between these two areas, but much less. This points on a J1 area extending from the Caucasus to Yemen which was later cut into half in the Turkey-Iraq-Iran area by incoming J2 peoples from the West.
(This is clear, even if you do not accept the proto-IE = J2 theory.)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 08, 2009, 05:31:42 AM
To Jafety
The Basque word for Mountain is Mendi, I don´t know where did you get the word Karp, but the only word similar in Basque I can think of is Karpe, a small bush with yellow flowers

Thanks, I read it somewhere. Probably they thought on "Harri" = rock. (K often turns to H in many languages). But the Albanian version is much better, I agree.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 08, 2009, 05:31:55 AM
To rms2
Your theory of R1b=IE has many problems. Basques are now a small population, but historical Aquitanians were extended over a considerably larger territory. Besides, you have also the Iberic languages, also non IE and extending over an even larger area of Iberia in ancient times, an area with a R1b majority.
Haplogroups are useful markers to determine movements of population, like I think L21 could be useful to prove a late arrival of Basques south of the Pyrenees, but to treat them as Ethnic groups, tribes or races is a mistake, ethnic groups are always mixed, IE and non IE groups alike would be a mix of R1b and some other Haplogroups.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 08, 2009, 08:05:26 AM
It's rather funny actually: you find a small minority population (the Basques) that is non-IE speaking and generalize from it to the untold millions of IE-speaking R1b1b2s. With J2s, however, you do just exactly the opposite. Untold millions of them are non-IE (Semitic) speaking, yet you make them the authors of Indo-European!

I know that this can seem ridicolous but the main point behind it is that R1b1b2 is the last population among Basques, therefore the most likely bearer of the language. There is no later migration there. With J2, the case is different, as J2 is a late-comer, most likely the latest population in Italy, Greece, Albania etc. There is no more than 15% R1a in Turkey which now speaks Turkish, however you would not argue that Turkish language was not spread by R1a, would you?

I still want to draw your attention on the fact, that languages, genes etc. usually originate where they are the most diverse, not where they are the most frequent or dominant. The colonization of the Americas is an especially good showcase. There are 185 million Portoguese speakers in Brazil and only 10 mio in Portugal, still not Brazil is the original place. Languages tend to "conquer" massive population on the extremes of a territory, see English, Spanish and Portuguese in the Americas, Russian penetration into Asia, Indo-Aryan languages of India etc.
IE is most diverse in the Balkans/Anatolia area therefore it is very likely that originated there.

Another point on the trade spread of IE: in Africa, most IE languages (primarily French and English) spread through the elite dominance+trade model. There was virtually no White settlement there apart from South Africa, but the local population shifted and is shifting to IE languages. Why? Because these are the languages of trade and contract between the local tribes. These do not understand each other, even if they all speak Niger-Congo languages, as the Neolithic language drift model of V.G. Childe suggested. Thus more and more people shifts to IE, without having a drop of R1 or J2 Y-DNA.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 08, 2009, 09:15:59 AM
I think you are very much mistaken about J2, Jafety. It is very common among Semitic speakers and much less common among non-Semitic speakers.

OK, I will list some J2 data here (from different studies):
I. Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) speakers:

Lebanon 25-30%
Syria, Palestine 15-17%
Jewish 23-28% (however, Jewish even have R1b1b2 around 20%)
Iraq: 22%
North African Arab: 10-12%
Bukhara (Central Asian) Arab: 17%

II. Indo-European peoples:
In Europe

Spain: 4-8%
France: 13%
Italy (mainland): 20-29%
Sicily: 17%
Sardinia: 5-10%
Albanian: 20-24%
Greek: 20-21%
Macedonia: 12-25%
Croatian: 5-6%
Czech-Slovak: 9%
Ukrainian: 6-7%
Russian: 4-8%
Polish: 1%
Bavarian German: 5%
Frisian: 1-6%
English: 0-6%

Outside Europe:

Armenians: 24%
South Ossetians: 24%
Iranians: 21-25%
Kurds: 18-28%
Parsi (Zoroaster follower living in India): 38%
Indo-Aryan speakers in Pakistan: 6-20%
Indo-Aryan castes in India: 12-14%
Tajiks (Central Asia): 9-31%

Other areas which were IE speaking historically:
Turkey: 18-40%
Uyghurs (Tocharian area): 20%
Uzbekistan: 10-16%
You should also consider ancient populations.  People like the Phoenicians were Semitic speaking and Dr. Wells/National Genographic claim that the Phoenicians had a very high J2 contingent.   Your %'s of current populations only point out that J2 is not the predominant Y haplogroup across a large swath of Europe and the Mediterranean.  One way to look at that, maybe the right way, is that this is only evidence that J2 spread early and unevenly, which actually supports that their languages didn't end up becoming predominant, like IE did in Europe.

I think you are avoiding a major issue with claiming J2 brought IE to Europe.   The conflict in timing and archeology.  Archeology clearly shows the Neolithic moved into Central and Western Europe in a big way from 6000-5000 BC.  When you trace the Neolithic movement, you find a trail of J2.    Are you disputing that J2 was a big part of the Neolithic expansions?    That is very commonly agreed upon.

If J2 was Neolithic in Europe beyond the Southeast, then it couldn't have been IE.  PIE wasn't spoken until about 4000 BC to 2500 BC.   This is the latest and greatest research.

That is not to say some J2 couldn't have joined somebody else during the IE expansions across Europe post 2500 BC, but it doesn't make it likely J2 was the original PIE speaking people.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 08, 2009, 09:26:27 AM
Yes, I think E-M78 is the sign of Neolithic movement, and probably also R-M269*.
I argue that J2 expanded only in the metal ages, thus exactly in the timespan that you mentioned.

I think there is a very good chance that IE languages originated in the Bronze Age and in Anatolia. However, I can be mistaken in connecting it to J2. Probably there were more lineages. But I think the Kurgan theory is not defendable on linguistic or genetic terms. Renfrews Anatolian hypothesis is too early for the language, as you mentioned already. Thus the solution should be an Anatolian homeland, but Bronze Age spread. This is very logical, and after that we should find the Haplogroup.

I presented my J2 idea, and you are challenging it. That is good. Probably together we will find out the answer.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 08, 2009, 09:57:46 AM
I think you are very much mistaken about J2, Jafety. It is very common among Semitic speakers and much less common among non-Semitic speakers.

OK, I will list some J2 data here (from different studies):
I. Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) speakers:

Lebanon 25-30%
Syria, Palestine 15-17%
Jewish 23-28% (however, Jewish even have R1b1b2 around 20%)
Iraq: 22%
North African Arab: 10-12%
Bukhara (Central Asian) Arab: 17%

II. Indo-European peoples:
In Europe

Spain: 4-8%
France: 13%
Italy (mainland): 20-29%
Sicily: 17%
Sardinia: 5-10%
Albanian: 20-24%
Greek: 20-21%
Macedonia: 12-25%
Croatian: 5-6%
Czech-Slovak: 9%
Ukrainian: 6-7%
Russian: 4-8%
Polish: 1%
Bavarian German: 5%
Frisian: 1-6%
English: 0-6%

Outside Europe:

Armenians: 24%
South Ossetians: 24%
Iranians: 21-25%
Kurds: 18-28%
Parsi (Zoroaster follower living in India): 38%
Indo-Aryan speakers in Pakistan: 6-20%
Indo-Aryan castes in India: 12-14%
Tajiks (Central Asia): 9-31%

Other areas which were IE speaking historically:
Turkey: 18-40%
Uyghurs (Tocharian area): 20%
Uzbekistan: 10-16%



Call me strange, but I don't see an Indo-European "core" for J2 in the stats you posted the way you seem to. I see a cline from the Near East that fades as the distance from that homeland increases, just as the map of J2 frequency I posted shows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.svg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.svg)

I don't have much time to argue about this right now. Maybe I can return to it later.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 08, 2009, 10:30:58 AM
To rms2
Your theory of R1b=IE has many problems. Basques are now a small population, but historical Aquitanians were extended over a considerably larger territory. Besides, you have also the Iberic languages, also non IE and extending over an even larger area of Iberia in ancient times, an area with a R1b majority.

Not enough is known about the Iberian languages to say what they were. I have read some sources that claim they were Indo-European and others that claim they were non-IE.

Aquitanian was probably Vasconic, but it did not extend over a very great area. Where is the evidence that all R1b1b2s once spoke such a language?
 
Haplogroups are useful markers to determine movements of population, like I think L21 could be useful to prove a late arrival of Basques south of the Pyrenees, but to treat them as Ethnic groups, tribes or races is a mistake, ethnic groups are always mixed, IE and non IE groups alike would be a mix of R1b and some other Haplogroups.

I'm not sure why you wrote that. First off, there is little to link L21 to the Basques. Right now, you are it. Take a look at the Basque Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/BasqueDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults). While most of its members are R1b1b2 of one kind or another, there are a number of different y haplogroups represented, including E1b1b, G2, I1, J1, and J2.

No one is arguing that ethnic groups and tribes aren't mixed. When we speak of the Celts being this or that or the Indo-Europeans being this or that, we are generalizing. That is necessary to do in order to communicate. Otherwise, if we all had to qualify everything we wrote with constant nit-picking reminders that "populations are mixed" and "not every man was L21+", etc., etc., very little would get said.

Besides that, there must have been a time when tribes - which, after all, began as extended kinship groups - were mostly composed of separate, single y haplogroups, those of their individual progenitors. Other y haplogroups might have been present, but to a much lesser degree. If this were not true, if peoples had always been inextricably mixed, we would not see the kinds of y haplogroup clines we still see today.

I could be all wrong, but I do not see the Basques as the quintessential Western Europeans, the fountainhead of all R1b1b2 in Europe. I think those ideas came from some pretty faulty and mistaken assumptions. Maybe L21 will start popping up right and left among the Basques, but if it does, I will be surprised. Thus far Iberia appears to be mostly L21-. But it's early, and things could change, I suppose.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 08, 2009, 10:53:04 AM
To rms2
1) Iberian languages, although not understood, can be read (unlike Lineal A). Pericay and Maluquer pretended a long time ago that the Iberian language spoken in Catalonia and Southern France was IE because their Urnfield archaeological tipology, but they could not decipher a single line. If that Iberian was in fact IE it would have been deciphered at least partially.

2) I don´t defend the Vasconic substratum theory at all, I think it is very much unsupported, but it is clear that there were some non IE languages attested in Western Europe as well as IE.

3) I do not see the Basques as the quintessential Western Europeans either, I think there is no direct link between languages and haplogroups, and that Basques were mostly R1b with mixing of other haplogroups also in the past. Some mostly R1b groups spoke IE languages, some didn´t, some changed their language along history.

Regarding the Basque project, of which I am a member, it is a very poor project. I counted only 13 people, including myself, of proven Basque origin, while there is a good number of non basque surnames. I contacted the Administrator on the subject, but received no answer, I must note the Administrator himself has a non Basque surname!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 08, 2009, 02:04:53 PM
BTW for my theory to be right, Iberia should be indeed L21-, while L21+ be shown in some numbers among Basques


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: vtilroe on April 08, 2009, 09:16:32 PM
Rich,

I see a second Iberian L21+ has appeared on Ysearch (Barreto, AF8GN), and you have him on your map.  Have you contacted him yet?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 09, 2009, 02:51:12 AM
Call me strange, but I don't see an Indo-European "core" for J2 in the stats you posted the way you seem to. I see a cline from the Near East that fades as the distance from that

I think still J2 is the only Hg which has a frequency around 20% from Italy to India/Central Asia and thus "mirrors" the IE languages at best. The other groups, which have low J2 (Celts, Germans and Balto-Slavs) expanded in historical times from areas where J2 is present around 6-10%.
Be careful with such maps, as it does not show that Uyghurs (Tocharian area) have 20% J2 for example. My idea is based on that J1 and E-M78 is neolithic migration (probably R1b1b2 as well) and J2 is a later one. It is everywhere a ruling class rather than massive population, as the 15-20% shows.
Semitic Phoenicians could have spread J2 of course, as did IE Greeks. These colonizations took place in a relatively recent time (1st millennium BC) like the Celtic expansion for example. At that stage HGs were already mixed.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 09, 2009, 02:57:45 AM
Haplogroups are useful markers to determine movements of population, but to treat them as Ethnic groups, tribes or races is a mistake, ethnic groups are always mixed, IE and non IE groups alike would be a mix of R1b and some other Haplogroups.

Partially true but I agree with rms' post. There is an interesting paper on the Y and MtDNA of New Guinea. It is shown that in most of the tribes, which there means only several villages, only 1 Hg is present while MtDNA is very mixed as a result of mandatory exogamy. The same goes for the Bantu expansion in Africa, nearly all are E-M2.
Thus I think it is reasonable to believe that R1b1b2 was once a tribe, which of course mixed with others during migrations. But if we want to trace back our ancestors, we have to look for the place where R1b1b2 men were a tribe once.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 09, 2009, 04:10:15 AM
That is interesting indeed, could you please post the reference for the paper on New Guinea?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 09, 2009, 09:29:39 AM
I hope the link will work properly:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=379223&blobtype=pdf


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2009, 10:47:17 AM
Rich,

I see a second Iberian L21+ has appeared on Ysearch (Barreto, AF8GN), and you have him on your map.  Have you contacted him yet?



I emailed him and asked him to join the project, but he hasn't answered me (along with a bunch of other people). I went ahead and put him on the map in Madrid, with a note that he just lists "Spain" for his ancestor and no more specific location.

We got a few more L21 results for guys with Hispanic surnames last night, all of them L21-, including one whose ancestor lived in the Azores but was born in the French Basque country, and one whose ancestor came from Cadiz.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2009, 10:50:46 AM
BTW for my theory to be right, Iberia should be indeed L21-, while L21+ be shown in some numbers among Basques

What, exactly, is your theory?

You believe L21 will turn up frequently among the Basques?

Is there any way for you to recruit some Basques for testing? I'm all for ferreting out the truth, whatever it may be.

Just for the record, though, I think you are wrong. Too much L21- among the Basques, in my humble opinion.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 09, 2009, 11:12:39 AM
I posted it earlier in this thread. As there are no numbers for posts I quote it here again.

"I think my test is significant in that I can trace my paternal line back to the 14th century in the Basque Country, so any recent migration can be ruled out.
For that same reason i think that more L-21+ can be found in the Basque Country in the large P-312 group of population that is not M-153 or M-157 and that still makes more than half the group and almost half the whole population.
However, a very important point I would like to make is that Basque Country is not at all representative of Iberia as a whole, on the contrary Adams et alii (2008) shows that it is quite different and in turn almost identical to Gascony.
So, I would not be surprised is L-21+ turns in significative numbers among Basques and still in very low numbers in iberia as a whole.
IMO when talking about genetics, Baque Country and Gascony, as far as we know, should be treated as a separated province, differentr from Iberia and France.
I am not talking here about the Franco-Cantabrian refuge theory here, though, rather from amore recent historical perspective, it would prove the late arrival of the Basques to modern Spanish Basque Country from the north of the Pyrenees, as archaeological findings strongly support."


Basically, there is a theory that proposes Basques arrived south of the Pyrenees from Aquitania in the 6th Century AD. This theory has a strong archaeological and historical support, and if Basques turn L21+ in significant numbers while Iberia as a whole don´t it could mean they remained for a long period in modern France, close to areas heavy L21+, giving additional support to that theory.
I could try the recruiting, but I will try to be more selective than the Basque project at FTDNA!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 09, 2009, 11:16:05 AM



I emailed him and asked him to join the project, but he hasn't answered me (along with a bunch of other people). I went ahead and put him on the map in Madrid, with a note that he just lists "Spain" for his ancestor and no more specific location.


If that is of any help, Barreto is a Galician surname.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2009, 11:22:16 AM
I posted it earlier in this thread. As there are no numbers for posts I quote it here again.

"I think my test is significant in that I can trace my paternal line back to the 14th century in the Basque Country, so any recent migration can be ruled out.
For that same reason i think that more L-21+ can be found in the Basque Country in the large P-312 group of population that is not M-153 or M-157 and that still makes more than half the group and almost half the whole population.
However, a very important point I would like to make is that Basque Country is not at all representative of Iberia as a whole, on the contrary Adams et alii (2008) shows that it is quite different and in turn almost identical to Gascony.
So, I would not be surprised is L-21+ turns in significative numbers among Basques and still in very low numbers in iberia as a whole.
IMO when talking about genetics, Baque Country and Gascony, as far as we know, should be treated as a separated province, differentr from Iberia and France.
I am not talking here about the Franco-Cantabrian refuge theory here, though, rather from amore recent historical perspective, it would prove the late arrival of the Basques to modern Spanish Basque Country from the north of the Pyrenees, as archaeological findings strongly support."


Basically, there is a theory that proposes Basques arrived south of the Pyrenees from Aquitania in the 6th Century AD. This theory has a strong archaeological and historical support, and if Basques turn L21+ in significant numbers while Iberia as a whole don´t it could mean they remained for a long period in modern France, close to areas heavy L21+, giving additional support to that theory.


Okay, thanks. Very well written and thought out. It will be interesting to watch and see how that pans out, one way or the other.

Thus far, we have only a couple of results for historical Gascony, and they are both L21-. One, Lorda (YSearch NR4JG), says he is of Basque descent.

You are the only R-L21* from anywhere even close to that region, but the sample size is, obviously, extremely small.

(You could do us a HUGE favor and upgrade to 67 markers, you know!)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2009, 11:24:58 AM

If that is of any help, Barreto is a Galician surname.


That is helpful, thanks.

I'm going to email my friend Robert Tarin, who runs the Iberia Project, and see if he knows Mr. Barreto and can convince him to join.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 09, 2009, 11:40:41 AM
I hope the link will work properly:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=379223&blobtype=pdf
Many thanks, it worked.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 09, 2009, 11:42:06 AM

You are the only R-L21* from anywhere even close to that region, but the sample size is, obviously, extremely small.

(You could do us a HUGE favor and upgrade to 67 markers, you know!)
What would be the benefit of upgrading to 67 markers?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 09, 2009, 12:36:24 PM
... (You could do us a HUGE favor and upgrade to 67 markers, you know!)
What would be the benefit of upgrading to 67 markers?
RMS2 probably has some strong input here, but I'll throw in my two cents:
I found that I had a few people that matched with me at 12 and 25 markers, but when I switched to 67 markers I found the original few were NOT closely related. I did find 4-5 others with most recent common ancestors in the 500 year range with me.  We identified our own little "cluster".  They were from Wales, UK and that seems to confirm my family's folklore.   The others in the cluster are only about 30 KM from each other.    Later I found another person who fit in with our cluster with a slight variation to my surname.  We are trying to match up our genealogical notes.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2009, 02:13:37 PM

What would be the benefit of upgrading to 67 markers?

What Mike said is absolutely right, but I would also like to add that you have all sorts of 12-marker matches with people outside your own subclade. Godoy, for example, is a member of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, and I know for a fact he is L21-. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

67 markers would provide greater resolution. We could see with whom you really do cluster. It helps me, for one thing, to try to recruit potential new members when I can tell them they have a close match with a known L21+. That motivates them to order the L21 test or the Deep Clade-R. It also helps us to get a more accurate L21 modal and a more accurate picture of overall L21 variance.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2009, 06:44:40 PM
Over the last couple of days I have been recruiting another R-L21* guy with an Hispanic surname I found in YSearch. He agreed to join yesterday but had some trouble, so I had to have FTDNA get him in, and Ashley Coursey did that for me today. The surname is Vasconcelos, which I understand is another Galician surname. However, this man cannot get his paper trail out of Brazil, unfortunately.

Interestingly, he said his paternal grandfather was tall and had blond hair and green eyes.

I am also working with Robert Tarin and Angel Cervantes to recruit Barreto for the project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 11, 2009, 04:01:51 AM
Beakers vs. Basques:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png)

I think the white non-Beaker area can be the Basque area during the Bronze Age. Thats in line with IALEM's Aquitanian migration theory that Basques came from the North of the Pyrennees.
Probably M65 and M153 groups lived west of the other P-312 groups, namely in the Seine and Loire valleys.
Later only L21 and M167 was involved in Beaker migration plus Hallstatt; and U152 only in the Iron Age La Tene.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 11, 2009, 01:23:57 PM
I think the white non-Beaker area can be the Basque area during the Bronze Age. Thats in line with IALEM's Aquitanian migration theory that Basques came from the North of the Pyrennees.
Probably M65 and M153 groups lived west of the other P-312 groups, namely in the Seine and Loire valleys.
Later only L21 and M167 was involved in Beaker migration plus Hallstatt; and U152 only in the Iron Age La Tene.
I don't think we should look at this graphic of the Bell Beaker cultures as a solid orange versus a solid white (Basque) for several reasons:
1) The Bell Beaker folks did integrate to some degree, maybe to a great degree, with prior inhabitants.   Think of it is as a splotchy fade-in/fade-out polk-dot orange.
2) All white areas should not be considered Aquitanian and therefore Basque.  There were people called Ligurians and Iberians that labeled as being in these geographies.   The intent of the map was not to denote "white" as all singular something-else.  It may have been a very diverse hodge-podge without much in the way of a common language or common culture.  The Basques may just be the remnants of one of these groups.   There is no solid white on the map.  It just everything else, except Beaker culture.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 11, 2009, 01:27:28 PM
....and U152 only in the Iron Age La Tene.
Why do you associate La Tene Celts as U152+ only?   U152's ancestor,  P312*, is likely to be found with him in his homeland at least.   U152 is also spread quite a ways east and down into Italy.   Part of U152 might have been Italo-Celt.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 13, 2009, 06:32:29 AM
Mike, I did not say that all La Tene were U-152 but that U-152 is likely to start migration only then... Of course there should have been others as well. It would be interesting how many U-152 are in Central and Southern Italy that are not connected to Celts. Probably you are right that it can be Italo-Celt.

I agree with the map-critic, I just wanted to show that there is a quite big non-Beaker whole in France where Pre-IE languages could have survived


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 13, 2009, 09:06:14 AM
.... I agree with the map-critic, I just wanted to show that there is a quite big non-Beaker whole in France where Pre-IE languages could have survived
Agreed, although I'm not sure what you mean by "Pre"-IE.   I would say there is very likely to have been non IE languages in parts of Gaul and Iberia, in fact the Mesolithic and Neolithic timeframes in Western Europe were likely to all be non IE.... my guess is there were multiple non IE languages.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 14, 2009, 04:00:43 AM
Yes, I absolutely agree. I also meant non-IE under pre-IE


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 27, 2009, 08:02:30 PM
I found a new (new to me, anyway) Iberian R-L21* this evening, here (kit 46334, Sampedro): http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults)

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, but I've already added him to the map.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 27, 2009, 08:52:35 PM
I found a new (new to me, anyway) Iberian R-L21* this evening, here (kit 46334, Sampedro): http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults)

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, but I've already added him to the map.

Mr. Sampedro has joined the project and is represented by an entry in the Southern Europe category and a placemark on the R-L21* Map.

Sometimes hunting through the various projects pays off!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 27, 2009, 09:39:51 PM
rms2, I went into the Iberian project to look for Sampedro.  I noticed this as well, which is new to my records.   Sorry if I'm redundant but just wanted to make sure you have him.
46448   Barreto   Severiano Barreto, born c. 1800


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 28, 2009, 10:29:22 AM
rms2, I went into the Iberian project to look for Sampedro.  I noticed this as well, which is new to my records.   Sorry if I'm redundant but just wanted to make sure you have him.
46448   Barreto   Severiano Barreto, born c. 1800


Yeah, I have Barreto, on the map that is. I have emailed him a couple of times trying to get him to join the project and have had Robert Tarin and Angel Cervantes email him, as well. He just doesn't seem to want to join. I put him on the map in Madrid, although I don't know from where in Spain his ancestor came.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 03, 2009, 07:26:09 AM
I found another possible Spanish R-L21* yesterday evening. I would have posted about it right away, but we were hit with some hellacious thunderstorms last night, so I had to shut off the computer (and then we lost power for awhile anyway). It was quite a light show.

Anyway, the possible R-L21* (I say "possible" because it's from YSearch) is Montero, YSearch Q3JQX, whose ancestor came from Extremadura. The entry doesn't say where in Extremadura, however.

Extremadura was part of Lusitania in ancient times.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 05, 2009, 11:15:24 AM
Montero has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Caceres in Extremadura.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 13, 2009, 05:06:24 PM
I just found a new Spanish "R1b1b2a1b5" in YSearch, Llanso, E6TSU. The entry just lists "Spain" as place of origin; it doesn't say where in Spain.

I sent him an email inviting him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: vtilroe on June 14, 2009, 02:56:20 PM
I just found a new Spanish "R1b1b2a1b5" in YSearch, Llanso, E6TSU. The entry just lists "Spain" as place of origin; it doesn't say where in Spain.

I sent him an email inviting him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
He's on dna-forums, and I also invited him to join.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 14, 2009, 03:35:23 PM
I just found a new Spanish "R1b1b2a1b5" in YSearch, Llanso, E6TSU. The entry just lists "Spain" as place of origin; it doesn't say where in Spain.

I sent him an email inviting him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
He's on dna-forums, and I also invited him to join.

Thanks!

I got some information today that there are currently 7 confirmed R-L21* in FTDNA's database who list Spain as their ancestral country of origin and, thus far, none from Portugal.

I've got five Spanish R-L21* accounted for on the R-L21* Map, so we need to find the other two.

It's possible they listed Spain as country of origin but can't actually get their paper trails out of the New World. I need to check out that possibility.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 14, 2009, 03:42:36 PM
. . . I've got five Spanish R-L21* accounted for on the R-L21* Map, so we need to find the other two.

It's possible they listed Spain as country of origin but can't actually get their paper trails out of the New World. I need to check out that possibility.

Okay, I was right. I just found the other two R-L21* who list Spain as country of ancestral origin. Neither of them can actually get his y-dna line back to Spain. One of them has a family tradition of a British ancestor on the island of Martinique, and the other actually traces his ancestry to Brazil, which may be indicative of Portuguese rather than Spanish ancestry.

So, anyway, all the verifiable Spanish R-L21* has been accounted for, and it's the five I have on the R-L21* European Continent Map.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on June 14, 2009, 03:52:46 PM
It appears that some of us, including myself, who thought L21 was going to be fairly rare in Iberia may have been a little premature in our predictions.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: vtilroe on June 14, 2009, 04:03:00 PM
Et  tu, Goldenhind?  ;)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 14, 2009, 04:08:30 PM
It appears that some of us, including myself, who thought L21 was going to be fairly rare in Iberia may have been a little premature in our predictions.

Yeah, it's starting to pop up, but it is still dwarfed there by the other P312+ subclades and by R-P312*.

Honestly, I always expected there to be some R-L21* in Iberia, and I think I said so way back when (a few months ago anyway).


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: vtilroe on June 14, 2009, 04:40:14 PM
I just found a new Spanish "R1b1b2a1b5" in YSearch, Llanso, E6TSU. The entry just lists "Spain" as place of origin; it doesn't say where in Spain.

I sent him an email inviting him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
He's on dna-forums, and I also invited him to join.

Oops, I confused Q3JQX with E6TSU!  [blush!]


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 15, 2009, 01:34:31 PM
Llanso has joined the R-L21 Plus Project, but it turns out his most distant y ancestor was actually born in Roussillon, Vaucluse, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France, so he's in the "Western Europe" category.

I'm wondering if there is a connection between the surnames Llanso and Lanceau/Lanceaux. I'll have to ask him.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: susanrosine on June 15, 2009, 02:13:44 PM

Yeah, it's starting to pop up, but it is still dwarfed there by the other P312+ subclades and by R-P312*.

Honestly, I always expected there to be some R-L21* in Iberia, and I think I said so way back when (a few months ago anyway).
In the world of genetic genealogy, "way back when" IS a few months ago! I expected to see some L21* in Iberia as well.  Does anyone know offhand if R-M222 has been found there?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 15, 2009, 07:35:30 PM

Yeah, it's starting to pop up, but it is still dwarfed there by the other P312+ subclades and by R-P312*.

Honestly, I always expected there to be some R-L21* in Iberia, and I think I said so way back when (a few months ago anyway).
In the world of genetic genealogy, "way back when" IS a few months ago! I expected to see some L21* in Iberia as well.  Does anyone know offhand if R-M222 has been found there?

I don't think it has, but I could be wrong.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 27, 2009, 08:15:17 PM
I found a new Iberian R-L21* in the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project this evening: Cantu, kit 99240.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults)

He is apparently YSearch FFF49.

According to the World Names Profiler and other internet sites, Cantu is actually an Italian surname, with highest frequency in Lombardy.

Of course, I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 27, 2009, 11:18:37 PM
Rich, Cantu is actually a town in Lombardy, Italy. I just found that out!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 28, 2009, 07:37:41 AM
Rich, Cantu is actually a town in Lombardy, Italy. I just found that out!

Thanks for the information. If Cantu contacts me or joins, I'll ask him about the possibility that his y line originated in Italy.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 28, 2009, 08:05:04 AM
Rich, Cantu is actually a town in Lombardy, Italy. I just found that out!

Here it is, just north of Milan:

http://tinyurl.com/yg6cy4s (http://tinyurl.com/yg6cy4s)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 28, 2009, 09:36:27 AM
The Italian town is Cantù. The surname of your guy is Cantu but with variants Cantun / Canto. Probably he has nothing to do with Italy. Probably with Catalunya.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 28, 2009, 09:53:55 AM
Carl Boyer, Ship Passenger Lists. The South 1538-1825.

P.170:  4126. Juan Ruiz de Caras, hijo de Alonso de Arévalo y de Mari Alvarez del Canto…

“Del Canto” is also a Tuscan surname, but these are probably Spaniards.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 28, 2009, 10:12:01 AM
The Dictionary of American Names says that Cantu is very frequent in Mexico, but is a habitational name from Cantu, Italy.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 28, 2009, 10:28:46 AM
I'd be very glad that many Mexicans were of Italian extraction, but, unfortunately, many surnames linked to Italy in Hispanic world are simply "nome de dovocao". Search if Cantù had some famous Saint.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 28, 2009, 11:20:09 AM
Rich didn't mention if the guy was Mexican. Especially if this L21 is European, I'd say chances are good he has Italian forbears - based on the history of the surname.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: embPA on October 28, 2009, 12:32:51 PM
In the 1930 US census 1,593 of 1,716 people named Cantu lived in Texas.  They were either born there or Mexico.   Three named Cantu were born in Italy.   


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 28, 2009, 02:20:55 PM
Then the odd he is Italian is very low. Probably those Italians were named Cantù and not Cantu. And if he is the ID on Ysearch given by Rich, certainly he is from Spain.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 28, 2009, 02:38:42 PM
Signore Mac,

I think we should say this man is Spanish with possible roots in northern Italy, since that is the only explanation for his surname at this time.

I am well aware of your uncanny ability to predict the future, but let's wait for Rich to get the answer from Mr. Cantu.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 28, 2009, 04:38:19 PM
My compatriot Galileo Galilei taught the world that science is to make hypotheses and to verify them.
My hypotheses aren't based on a sacred book but on thousands of data (historical, linguistic, genetic, on a life of studies in all the fields). Sometime perhaps I am wrong, but someone must yet demonstrate this.
If among  1716 named Cantu only 3 was born in Italy and the other were from Spain, on which origin do you bet for this Cantu?
I said that the Italian surname is Cantù and not Cantu, and this guy has other  form of the surname: Cantun and Canto or probably Cantò and if you knew the Catalunyan surnames you'd think suddenly to an Hiberian origin rather than Italian.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 28, 2009, 05:30:30 PM
Mi dispiace, mio fratello... To be honest, three Cantus of Italian ancestry is pretty significant since most Italian immigrants to the U.S. didn't come until the 1900s (including my folks).

This guy is not from Mexico, from what I understand. It can easily be said that he could have northern Italian ancestry; that's all.




Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 28, 2009, 06:41:57 PM
Its one of the problems of clade mapping.  If the earliest known ancestor is from one place but the surname, religion or some other factor makes it seem like their male line originally came from somewhere else then the map dot is perhaps misleading.  I dont think this should be taken too far as it would become very comples but where the name suggets an entirely different country then maybe that is a problem. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 28, 2009, 07:07:30 PM
I think the only way to avoid that is to get people to accurately display the origin of their MDKA.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 28, 2009, 08:42:29 PM
It may be awhile before we know, since Mr. Cantu has not responded to my emails and has not joined the project.

My guess is that he is Spanish enough, but his y line could have originated in Italy. I just don't know, and he may not know either.

The omission of an accent or other diacritical mark is meaningless in an American context, so "Cantu" could just be Cantù sans the accent mark.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 29, 2009, 07:20:01 AM
One thought I have is that its interesting that no Portugese are L21.  It is trendy to look at the Atlantic seaboard idea of proto-Celtic links between Iberia and the isles. However, half the Atlantic seaboard of Iberia consists of Portugal with the rest made up of Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria  and the Basque County in Spain. Nearly the entirety of this seaboard lacks any L21 until you are practically at the French border and even then it is in the country of the non-Celtic Basques.  Its early days but so far L21 remains completely absent in the areas where the coastal Atlantic Celtic and Lusitanian tribes of Iberia were located. 

There is however a lot of S116* along that seaboard.  That suggests that whatever contact there was between the S116* dominated Iberian Atlantic coast and the L21* dominated Irish/western British seaboards involved very little exchange of y-DNA.  This is also supported by the lack of the Iberian specific R1b clades in Ireland and vice versa and of course a lack of non-R1b clades like E that are common in Atlantic Iberia.     



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 29, 2009, 09:51:49 AM
One thought I have is that its interesting that no Portugese are L21.  It is trendy to look at the Atlantic seaboard idea of proto-Celtic links between Iberia and the isles. However, half the Atlantic seaboard of Iberia consists of Portugal with the rest made up of Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria  and the Basque County in Spain. Nearly the entirety of this seaboard lacks any L21 until you are practically at the French border and even then it is in the country of the non-Celtic Basques.  Its early days but so far L21 remains completely absent in the areas where the coastal Atlantic Celtic and Lusitanian tribes of Iberia were located.  

There is however a lot of S116* along that seaboard.  That suggests that whatever contact there was between the S116* dominated Iberian Atlantic coast and the L21* dominated Irish/western British seaboards involved very little exchange of y-DNA.  This is also supported by the lack of the Iberian specific R1b clades in Ireland and vice versa and of course a lack of non-R1b clades like E that are common in Atlantic Iberia.    
I'm seeking to better understand the lasting genetic impact of the Neolithic LBK and Impressed Wares advances. If either P312*(S116*) or L21* expanded with them, shouldn't there be more of the E and J Neolithic varieties where you find P312*,  L21* and U152 for that matter?  That seems possible for P312* but not particularly not for L21* given E and J really drops where L21* resides.  

Perhaps we could find a cluster or two of R-P312* that fit the E and J distributions?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 29, 2009, 01:18:44 PM
I think S116 is the missing link.  We have a fairly good idea of the focus of clades both up and downstream of S116 but S116* just seems so widespread that the area where S116 is oldest/originated could really be anywhere.  I would like to see MRCA variance dates for S116* in Italy, Spain, NW Europe (minus the isles) and central/eastern Europe compared. There could be a pattern although there may not be a detectable one if it spread quickly.  You get the impression of R1b1b2 in general that it sat for millenia somewhere with not much happening before suddenly exploding.   


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 29, 2009, 01:55:34 PM
I think S116 is the missing link.  We have a fairly good idea of the focus of clades both up and downstream of S116 but S116* just seems so widespread that the area where S116 is oldest/originated could really be anywhere. 
S116 (P312) is akin to the Bell Beakers in that respect.  They origination still remains up in the air - almost anywhere.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on October 29, 2009, 03:14:51 PM
I think S116 is the missing link.  We have a fairly good idea of the focus of clades both up and downstream of S116 but S116* just seems so widespread that the area where S116 is oldest/originated could really be anywhere.  I would like to see MRCA variance dates for S116* in Italy, Spain, NW Europe (minus the isles) and central/eastern Europe compared. There could be a pattern although there may not be a detectable one if it spread quickly.  You get the impression of R1b1b2 in general that it sat for millenia somewhere with not much happening before suddenly exploding.   
I think part of the problem is looking at P312* (S116*) as if it is monolithic and homogenous. Almost certainly it encompasses a number of various subclades with very different histories and distributions waiting for the discovery to new SNPs to differentiate them.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 29, 2009, 08:16:25 PM
Well, Cantu has not joined (doesn't look like he will), but we just got a new Spanish R-L21*, Olazabal, out of Cadiz (YSearch j5s37).

I am thrilled with each continental result, but I want to caution those who jump at each Iberian result in order to impute all sorts of significance into it that L21 is still relatively rare in Iberia.

Iberia is actually fairly well tested (as a consequence of the big Hispanic presence in the New World, especially the USA, I think), and the other R1b1b2 clades overwhelmingly outnumber L21 there. Just look at the R-P312* Map, and it does not include probably even half the R-P312* results in the Iberian Peninsula, nor does it include all the R-M153, R-SRY2627, R-U152 or R-U106 there.

I suspect L21 forms a pretty low percentage of all the R1b1b2 in Iberia.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: argiedude on October 29, 2009, 08:27:46 PM
http://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/apellidos/apellido-cantu.html

It says they estimate 875 people have the last name Cantu in Spain.

http://www.gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/genera.html

Looks like 100 Italians with the last name Cantu, and clearly originating in Milan.

I think it's by far most likely his y-dna is from Spain.

..................................

Stevo, those P312* results in the map, are they all L21-? Or do they include old samples that tested negative for the limited known clades of 2 years ago, such as U152 and U106?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 29, 2009, 09:24:35 PM
http://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/apellidos/apellido-cantu.html

It says they estimate 875 people have the last name Cantu in Spain.

http://www.gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/genera.html

Looks like 100 Italians with the last name Cantu, and clearly originating in Milan.

I think it's by far most likely his y-dna is from Spain.

..................................

Stevo, those P312* results in the map, are they all L21-? Or do they include old samples that tested negative for the limited known clades of 2 years ago, such as U152 and U106?

They are all L21- and negative for everything thus far known downstream of P312.

I don't think the number of people with the surname Cantu in Spain versus Italy on those two web sites means that much.

If you Google Cantu on the internet you can find forums where people with that surname with ancestry in Spain are discussing their Italian origin.

Maybe they just think they have Italian origin, I don't know, but it does seem odd that there is a city named Cantu in Italy and no city with that name in Spain or Portugal.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 29, 2009, 11:06:28 PM
Again the new guy is not from the Celtic Atlantic seaboard of Iberia.  That sort of suggests to me that most of the Celtic or related speakers along the coasts of Iberia must have been L21 negative.  It is interesting that three are plotted in the interior.  There were 2 Celtic cultures in Spain.  One was an Atlantic one that seems to hark back deep into the Bronze Age.  It is hard not to conclude this was linked to S116*. 

In the interior there was the different classic Celti-Iberian culture that some suggest owed its existance to links to early Iron Age southern Gaul.  Perhaps they may have had a small S28 and L21 element brought in from that area.  Perhaps  some sort of interior-coast clade contrast will emerge. 

Its still worth noting that the Atlantic coast dwellers of Iberia could not be more different in L21 status to the Atlantic coast dwellers in the isles.  You are talking about a contrast in L21 count from 0 in coastal Iberia to 90-odd % among Gaelic surnamed Irish in western Ireland.  If it turns out that Iberian L21 is mainly from the interior then it becomes even clearer than the common origin point for L21 between Iberia and the Ireland is Gaul.         


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on October 30, 2009, 04:44:34 AM
Well, Cantu has not joined (doesn't look like he will), but we just got a new Spanish R-L21*, Olazabal, out of Cadiz (YSearch j5s37).

Olazabal is a Basque surname (it means "large shack"), I knew I could not be alone for long as the only Basque L21+, as my Basque lineage is quite old, excluding any recent migration.
Olazabal lists Puerto Príncipe (Cuba) as point of origin, Cadiz is not listed, although it could well be the just the departure port from Spain, at the time only Cadiz and Seville were authorized to trade with American colonies.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 30, 2009, 07:39:43 AM
Well, Cantu has not joined (doesn't look like he will), but we just got a new Spanish R-L21*, Olazabal, out of Cadiz (YSearch j5s37).

Olazabal is a Basque surname (it means "large shack"), I knew I could not be alone for long as the only Basque L21+, as my Basque lineage is quite old, excluding any recent migration.
Olazabal lists Puerto Príncipe (Cuba) as point of origin, Cadiz is not listed, although it could well be the just the departure port from Spain, at the time only Cadiz and Seville were authorized to trade with American colonies.


He lists Cadiz on his "Plot Ancestral Origins" page, so that is what shows up on the project's Y-DNA Results page.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 30, 2009, 08:23:48 AM

Olazabal is a Basque surname (it means "large shack"), I knew I could not be alone for long as the only Basque L21+, as my Basque lineage is quite old, excluding any recent migration.
Olazabal lists Puerto Príncipe (Cuba) as point of origin, Cadiz is not listed, although it could well be the just the departure port from Spain, at the time only Cadiz and Seville were authorized to trade with American colonies.


I think you run into a problem because L21 is still pretty rare among persons of Iberian heritage, let alone persons of Basque heritage. It isn't even showing up in any numbers anywhere in the vicinity of Basque country, like old Aquitaine in France.

On the other hand, there are plenty of persons of Iberian ancestry being SNP tested and thus plenty of L21- results.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on October 30, 2009, 09:28:04 AM
It would be interesting to know how many people with Basque ancestry tested negative already for L21


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 30, 2009, 06:22:52 PM
It would be interesting to know how many people with Basque ancestry tested negative already for L21

It would, and it would be nice if someone would test a nice-sized Basque population sample for all the R1b1b2 SNPs.

I know that many men of Iberian ancestry (not all Basques, obviously) have been tested and by far most of them are L21-. Even the French we have tested down near the Spanish border have all been L21-.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on November 14, 2009, 09:42:12 AM
I just found another new R-L21* in the Iberian Peninsula Project: Fernándes, kit 162171.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

I can't find him in YSearch, but I have written to the admin of the Iberian Peninsula Project and to another guy I know to try to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

(I also put in a plea for another shot at getting Cantu into the project.)

According to the World Names Profiler, Fernándes spelled that way is supposed to be Portuguese rather than Spanish.

We'll see (I hope).


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on November 14, 2009, 10:40:46 AM
I didn't know that about Iberian surnames: the 's' ending denotes Portuguese ancestry.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on November 14, 2009, 11:46:25 AM
There's a guy over on Eupedia's Y-DNA Forum called "Cambria Red" who identifies himself as L21+. He is from Valenca do Minho in northern Portugal right on the border with Galicia, Spain.

Apparently he tested with 23andMe or some other company and can't join FTDNA projects, unfortunately.

Since he calls himself "Cambria Red", I am wondering if he is not originally from Wales, however.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 14, 2009, 01:52:56 PM
No coastal Iberian L21 in the old Celtic areas of Iberia (the Atlantic coasts other than the Basque Country) has been uncovered to date.  So, the case for a seaborn linkeage between the Celtic populations of the Atlantic or a seaborne spread of L21 is not at all supported if Iberia was involved.  Any such links would have to be with the slightly mysterious Celtic Atlantic coast tribes of Iberia but all people from those areas to date are L21 negative in shapr contrast to the isles western coasts. 

L21 restricted to the interior of Iberia could echo in some way the classic Celti-Iberian tribes and archaeolgical culture which has a very land-locked distribution.  If this is surrounded by an L21 negative ring around the Iberian coast, this suggests to me that what Iberian L21 there is may have drifted in from France.  That is broadly in line with what archaeologists think about the creation of Celt-Iberian culture.   Maybe the scattered L21 in interior Iberia is indirect evidence that L21 was present to some degree in southern France in the early Iron Age. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 14, 2009, 02:45:56 PM
I just found another new R-L21* in the Iberian Peninsula Project: Fernándes, kit 162171. .....
I added to the L21* spreadsheet. I did a little matching on slow markers and guess what? ...  a few Fergusons from Scotland show up.   We are not not talking about close GD's so don't get too excited.   Do we know anything about Fernándes' origin with Iberia?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on November 14, 2009, 03:54:28 PM

I added to the L21* spreadsheet. I did a little matching on slow markers and guess what? ...  a few Fergusons from Scotland show up.   We are not not talking about close GD's so don't get too excited.   Do we know anything about Fernándes' origin with Iberia?

Nothing except that the World Names Profiler says that spelling is Portuguese.

I checked with "Cambria Red" at the Eupedia Y-DNA Forum. He is Portuguese. He said he uses "Cambria Red" because "Cambria" is a Celtic country (Wales).

Costa (already a member for awhile) contacted me by email to say his ancestor came from the island of Terceira in the Azores. I have created a Portugal category on the Y-DNA Results page for him (to begin with) and added a placemark to the R-L21* European Continent Map for him, as well.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on November 14, 2009, 04:04:37 PM


. . . Costa (already a member for awhile) contacted me by email to say his ancestor came from the island of Terceira in the Azores. I have created a Portugal category on the Y-DNA Results page for him (to begin with) and added a placemark to the R-L21* European Continent Map for him, as well.


Here is some of what this web site (http://wwwlibrary.csustan.edu/bsantos/azores.html (http://wwwlibrary.csustan.edu/bsantos/azores.html)) has to say about the settlement of the Azores Islands.

Quote
The first settlers were a mixed group of people from the Portuguese provinces of Algarve and Minho. Also, Madeirans, Moorish prisoners, black slaves, French, Italians, Scots, English, and Flemings were among the early settlers. There were petty criminals, Spanish clergy, Jews, soldiers, government officials, European merchants and sugar cane growers.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on November 15, 2009, 08:25:57 AM
Going back to the origin of the Spanish surname Cantu, I received some email from a friend of mine who is expert in all things pertaining to Iberian genealogy and history and is himself of Spanish descent (and who speaks the language).

Here is some info he provided me.

http://www.misabueso.com/nombres/apellido_C.html (http://www.misabueso.com/nombres/apellido_C.html)

Italiano. Deriva de Cantuti. Tuvo casas solares en Módena, Milán, Balerna, Lugano y Bolonia. Esta familia italiana pasó a España y varios de sus miembros lo hicieron al continente americano estableciéndose en lo que hoy es el Estado de Texas, a principios del siglo XVIII. Es un apellido toponímico del lugar de este nombre, en la provincia de Como (Italia).

[translation]
Italian. Derived from Cantuti. It had homesteads in Módena, Milán, Balerna, Lugano and Bolonia. This Italian family passed to Spain and various of its members made it to the American continent establishing themselves in what is today the state of Texas, at the beginning of the XVIII century. It is a toponymic surname from the place of that name, in the province of Como (Italy).

He pointed out that if one looks at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp (http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp), he will find plenty of Cantus in Italy but few in Spain.

He refers to a book on Spanish surnames by Gutierre Tibón (he wrote several; I'm not sure which one was meant) which says that Cantu is an Italian surname originating in Como, in what the Romans called "Canturium", and was naturalized in Mexico.

So, apparently even the Spanish and Mexican genealogical authorities say Cantu is ultimately of northern Italian origin.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on November 15, 2009, 09:10:20 AM
Of course if this is true I am very glad, to find so much Italians in the world. But we don't know anything about the origins of these Italians, who, being from Lombardy, can be Lombards or from every Central European countries.
You know that I always hope that an origin of all Europeans from Italy is true. Also R-L28 (Belgieri) and Argiedude (a very ancient L-L21+) make me still hope.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 15, 2009, 10:55:53 AM
It would be strrange to at least not see a modest sprinkling of L21 in north Italy when, although apparenlty outnumbered in these areas by S28, it is pretty common (given the low amount of testing) in Switzerland, south Germany and even SE France close to Switzerland and Italy.  I cant help feeling that Argiedude is probably right that there will ultimately be a low but visible scattering of L21 in north Italy, perhaps similar to Iberia.  We should perhaps expect that L21 was brought by Celtic invaders from the southern half of Gaul in the same sort of proportion L21 commands there today.  Then of course it should be remembered that not all R1b1b2 was necessarily brought by Celts (S116* in particular springs to mind), so the figure needs reduced.  So, if L21 is say 20% of R1b1b2 in the old southern Gaulish areas (southern France, Switzerland, SW Germany), it would be perfectly understandable if it was perhaps 10% in northern Italy but absence would be unexpected and require explanation. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on November 15, 2009, 03:34:38 PM
Cantu has joined the project, but thus far his paper trail ends (or begins) in Mexico, so he's in the Colonial category for now.

I sent him a welcome email and mentioned the possible Italian origin of the surname. We'll see what he says.

I'm sure glad he finally joined!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on December 18, 2009, 04:53:07 AM
Well, Cantu has not joined (doesn't look like he will), but we just got a new Spanish R-L21*, Olazabal, out of Cadiz (YSearch j5s37).

Olazabal is a Basque surname (it means "large shack"), I knew I could not be alone for long as the only Basque L21+, as my Basque lineage is quite old, excluding any recent migration.
Olazabal lists Puerto Príncipe (Cuba) as point of origin, Cadiz is not listed, although it could well be the just the departure port from Spain, at the time only Cadiz and Seville were authorized to trade with American colonies.


He lists Cadiz on his "Plot Ancestral Origins" page, so that is what shows up on the project's Y-DNA Results page.

I see Olazabal now shows ancestral origin to the Basque Country! I was pretty sure of that, the Olazabal family is still strongly present at Irun, including the famous golf player Jose María Olazabal.
Now 3 out of 4 L-21 in Iberia bunch in or close to the Basque Country. Of course still very few samples, but I feel L-21 will show some strength among Basques, Olazabal and me both with old Basque roots that exclude recent migrations.
 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on December 18, 2009, 05:14:40 AM
BTW There is a new L-21 in the Basque Project, Larrea, kit 162171


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 18, 2009, 08:45:01 AM
BTW There is a new L-21 in the Basque Project, Larrea, kit 162171

He first appeared under the surname Fernandes. I tried to recruit him and had a couple of other guys contact him, as well, but he just never responded.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 18, 2009, 11:02:10 AM
BTW There is a new L-21 in the Basque Project, Larrea, kit 162171

He first appeared under the surname Fernandes. I tried to recruit him and had a couple of other guys contact him, as well, but he just never responded.
I do have the guy added to the spreadsheet on the Yahoo L21 forum under Files.  You can compare with other folks there if you wish.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/

Is his surname Larrea or Fernandes?  Is either of those actually a Basque surname?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on December 19, 2009, 06:41:19 AM



Is his surname Larrea or Fernandes?  Is either of those actually a Basque surname?
Fernandes is not (it is just a patronimic, meaning "son of Fernando"), but Larrea is indeed a Basque surname, meaning "meadow".


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 19, 2009, 07:52:29 PM
The interesting thing about the small amount of Iberian L21 is that it seems mainly to be from the NE area near France.  It is not found along any of the formerly Celtic coastline of Iberia where instead S116 predominates.  So, I do not think it at all fits the trendy Cetlicisation by Bronze Age Atlantic trade networks idea.  If the latter were true we would expect L21 to be common on the Galicia, Asturias and Portugal coasts but not in the Basque area.  The opposite seems true. 

When you see a huge amount of L21 in France and a much smaller amount in Iberia which is mainly located in the extreme NE area next to France, it is tempting to see Iberian L21 simply as overpspill from Atlantic France.  How this fits into ethnic or linguistic considerations I do not know. Probably not very well.  The same problem is true of S116 as a whole.  Most S116 peoples spoke Celtic except the Basques.  So, did eveyone but the Basques lose the original S116 language or did the Basques alone lose the original S116 language? 
       


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 19, 2009, 11:22:57 PM
.....  So, did eveyone but the Basques lose the original S116 language or did the Basques alone lose the original S116 language?    
It's a difficult question.  It is apparent that languages and haplogroups don't overlay each other in any pure form, at least in any case that I know of.  I think it would be a surprise if somewhere in Europe some IE speakers didn't integrate with or convert to a non-IE speaking tribe.  Perhaps this is it.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on December 20, 2009, 04:29:29 PM


When you see a huge amount of L21 in France and a much smaller amount in Iberia which is mainly located in the extreme NE area next to France, it is tempting to see Iberian L21 simply as overpspill from Atlantic France.  How this fits into ethnic or linguistic considerations I do not know. Probably not very well.  The same problem is true of S116 as a whole.  Most S116 peoples spoke Celtic except the Basques.  So, did eveyone but the Basques lose the original S116 language or did the Basques alone lose the original S116 language? 
       
I don´t know about the overall picture, but in detail I think it fits very well into the "Late Vasconization" theory, in which Basques crossed south of the Pyrenees at a late period, around 5th-6th century AD.
IMO Basques fit into a genetic province that corresponds to ancient Aquitaine, as it is shown in the Gascoigne sample of Adams et alii (2008), and that is clearly different from the rest of Iberia, that has a much mixed variety of Haplogroups.
That Aquitaine province would be marked by a very large predominance of R1b (85%+) of which M-153 would be the disctintive marker, M-167 would be equally significant, and L-21 would also be present in some strength.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 20, 2009, 04:35:33 PM

I don´t know about the overall picture, but in detail I think it fits very well into the "Late Vasconization" theory, in which Basques crossed south of the Pyrenees at a late period, around 5th-6th century AD.
IMO Basques fit into a genetic province that corresponds to ancient Aquitaine, as it is shown in the Gascoigne sample of Adams et alii (2008), and that is clearly different from the rest of Iberia, that has a much mixed variety of Haplogroups.
That Aquitaine province would be marked by a very large predominance of R1b (85%+) of which M-153 would be the disctintive marker, M-167 would be equally significant, and L-21 would also be present in some strength.


That makes a lot of sense, certainly a lot more than the "Paleolithic Remnant" idea.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 20, 2009, 07:00:45 PM
Ialem-Do you have any theory as to the origin of the early Basque/Aquitanian language?  Even if it was located in SW France before it was in NE Iberia, it still leaves me wondering who the Aquitani were, why SW France featured their unique language, how and when it got there and how this relates to DNA.  There seem to be few clues.  

Some linguists do seem to think there is a cousinly relationship between Aquitanian and Iberian language in inscriptions and even the Romans seem to suggest a link.  Archaeologically, one thing does strike me as odd about the Aquitanian area of France.  It was an area where there was an unusual Atlantic facing outpost of Early Neolithic Cardial culture, otherwise an almost enitrely Mediteranean phenomenon.  That sort of set the Aquitanian area in the Neolithic apart as an oddity compared to all  the other non-Mediteranian areas of both France and Spain.  Could that be the source of the distant linguistic link between Aquitania on the Atlantic and Mediteranean Spain?  

How that fits in with S116 or any DNA I have absulutely no idea.  


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on December 21, 2009, 05:52:35 AM
Ialem-Do you have any theory as to the origin of the early Basque/Aquitanian language?  Even if it was located in SW France before it was in NE Iberia, it still leaves me wondering who the Aquitani were, why SW France featured their unique language, how and when it got there and how this relates to DNA.  There seem to be few clues.  

Some linguists do seem to think there is a cousinly relationship between Aquitanian and Iberian language in inscriptions and even the Romans seem to suggest a link.  Archaeologically, one thing does strike me as odd about the Aquitanian area of France.  It was an area where there was an unusual Atlantic facing outpost of Early Neolithic Cardial culture, otherwise an almost enitrely Mediteranean phenomenon.  That sort of set the Aquitanian area in the Neolithic apart as an oddity compared to all  the other non-Mediteranian areas of both France and Spain.  Could that be the source of the distant linguistic link between Aquitania on the Atlantic and Mediteranean Spain?  

How that fits in with S116 or any DNA I have absulutely no idea.  
I think that it is beyond doubt Aquitanian and Iberian were related languages, although the small ammount of texts makes it difficult to state the degree of that relation. Among ancient sources, Strabo does indicate explicitelly that Aquitanian and Iberians are closely related, although it is an indirect source, he was never actually in the area.

To my knowledge, the Cardial Neolithic in Aquitania is limited to a few ceramic fragments found in settlements along the Garonne that alowed some archaeologists to reconstruct a possible Neolithic path of expansion. For Aquitania as a whole, the relevant fact is the survival of an epipaleolithic culture for quite a long time, in fact there is no significant change until the arrival of Bell Beakers around 2000 BC.

As for DNA links, so far the only thing I can say is that it is a mistake to include Basques in an Iberian DNA region, they are different enough and much closely related to SW France. Once we have a clear picture of France DNA we could see if that Aquitanian dominion stops at the Garonne or goes beyond to the Loire. The most I can say is that the presence of M-167 speaks of some relation to Catalonia and the French Mediterranean coast, where some Iberian tribes were historically located, but the match is far from exact or conclusive.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 22, 2009, 05:18:27 PM
Ialem-you are right.  My memory let me down.  The Atlantic Cardial is in the centre-west area of coast bounded to the south by the Garonne and to the north by the Loire.  You are also right that the area between the Garonne and the Pyrenees is features cultures that look rather like Mesolithic copying of Neolithic ideas rather than invasion.  However, I would very much hesitate at going back to a western pre-Neolithic origin for R1b1b2.   


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 23, 2009, 11:42:04 AM
How extensive was the Cardial Culture between the Garonne and the Loire?

Regarding the Aquitani, my mind goes back to Caesar's threefold description of Gaul in the 1st century BC. He limited them to the area between the Garonne and the Pyrenees. That's not to say their lands might not have extended to the Loire at some point long before Caesar arrived to take note. The Aquitani could have been driven south of the Garonne by the growth of the Celtic Gauls.

It would also be interesting to know who the Ligurians were and what sort of y-dna signature they left behind them.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on December 23, 2009, 01:16:46 PM


Regarding the Aquitani, my mind goes back to Caesar's threefold description of Gaul in the 1st century BC. He limited them to the area between the Garonne and the Pyrenees. That's not to say their lands might not have extended to the Loire at some point long before Caesar arrived to take note. The Aquitani could have been driven south of the Garonne by the growth of the Celtic Gauls.

Early Medieval Aquitania did extend to the Loire, so maybe we could see the opposite, Aquitanians pushing back GalloRomans. In fact the first Basque duke of Vasconia, Lupo I Otsoa, died while besieging Limoges, the farthest North the Basuqe expansion reached. The fall of the Roman empire seems to have been full of oportunities for some non civilized peoples inside the Empire, like Basques, Berbers and Isaurians. Britons had bad luck in that period.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 23, 2009, 08:08:01 PM
We discussed that before. It seems more likely early medieval Aquitaine took its name from the Roman administrative province by that name, which extended almost to the Loire and thus included a substantial chunk of old Gallia Celtica as well as the original Aquitania between the Garonne and the Pyrenees.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on December 24, 2009, 04:12:54 AM
We discussed that before. It seems more likely early medieval Aquitaine took its name from the Roman administrative province by that name, which extended almost to the Loire and thus included a substantial chunk of old Gallia Celtica as well as the original Aquitania between the Garonne and the Pyrenees.
Yes, I know, but I wanted to note that there was a documented expansion of Basques up to the Loire in the 6-7th centuries AD.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 24, 2009, 11:25:57 AM
We discussed that before. It seems more likely early medieval Aquitaine took its name from the Roman administrative province by that name, which extended almost to the Loire and thus included a substantial chunk of old Gallia Celtica as well as the original Aquitania between the Garonne and the Pyrenees.
Yes, I know, but I wanted to note that there was a documented expansion of Basques up to the Loire in the 6-7th centuries AD.

Actually, I did not know about that expansion, and it is interesting. There is a pretty fair amount of R-M167 (SRY2627) in France. I wish that project maintained a map. It would be interesting to see the distribution in France.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 24, 2009, 12:37:08 PM
Back to the surname Cantu (remember?). I got a message from another Cantu (not our L21+ member) who says the family tradition is that there was a man named Vito Cantu who left Italy and settled in Spain, founding the Cantu family there.

I don't know if that is accurate or if it applies to our Cantu, but I just thought I would pass it on.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 06, 2010, 02:08:13 PM
Hey, I just found a new Spanish R-L21 in, of all places, the Benelux Project: Trujillo, kit 165841, Ysearch 4H9UX.

The notes at the bottom of the Ysearch entry say the most distant y-dna ancestor was of Basque origin, but I don't think Trujillo is a particularly Basque surname (I could be wrong about that, though). The World Names Profiler shows that surname as most common in Andalucia and Castilla-La Mancha.

I'm trying to recruit Trujillo for the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 06, 2010, 02:24:50 PM
Hey, I just found a new Spanish R-L21 in, of all places, the Benelux Project: Trujillo, kit 165841, Ysearch 4H9UX.

The notes at the bottom of the Ysearch entry say the most distant y-dna ancestor was of Basque origin, but I don't think Trujillo is a particularly Basque surname (I could be wrong about that, though). The World Names Profiler shows that surname as most common in Andalucia and Castilla-La Mancha.

I'm trying to recruit Trujillo for the R-L21 Plus Project.

There is a Spanish city in Caceres named Trujillo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trujillo,_C%C3%A1ceres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trujillo,_C%C3%A1ceres)

http://tinyurl.com/yfzewpq (http://tinyurl.com/yfzewpq)

UPDATE: Trujillo just joined the project! :-)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on March 07, 2010, 05:09:47 PM
Trujillo is not a Basque surname, however the origen of the surname is not in the city of that name, but in the old kingdom of Aragon, in the city of Jaca, where one Don José Trujillo is already atested in 1136. Jaca is a city close to the Pyrenean mountains, close to Navarre and the Basque Country.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 07, 2010, 05:39:17 PM
This Trujillo has no matches within the FTDNA database. His only close matches appear to be mostly Jewish ( a Coen and a Bergen in SMGF and a Portuguese Jew in the the 2009 Tras-os-Montes study by Nogueiro).

http://tinyurl.com/yfynmjz (http://tinyurl.com/yfynmjz)

The haplotype is fairly unique.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 07, 2010, 05:49:11 PM
This Trujillo has no matches within the FTDNA database. His only close matches appear to be mostly Jewish ( a Coen and a Bergen in SMGF and a Portuguese Jew in the the 2009 Tras-os-Montes study by Nogueiro).

http://tinyurl.com/yfynmjz (http://tinyurl.com/yfynmjz)

The haplotype is fairly unique.



I wonder if we aren't on the verge of discovering another R-L21 Jewish cluster. A couple of us (including me) stumbled on our Baltic Jewish cluster in a very similar way early last summer. It turned out to be quite extensive.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on March 07, 2010, 06:23:50 PM
This Trujillo has no matches within the FTDNA database. His only close matches appear to be mostly Jewish ( a Coen and a Bergen in SMGF and a Portuguese Jew in the the 2009 Tras-os-Montes study by Nogueiro).

http://tinyurl.com/yfynmjz (http://tinyurl.com/yfynmjz)

The haplotype is fairly unique.



I wonder if we aren't on the verge of discovering another R-L21 Jewish cluster. A couple of us (including me) stumbled on our Baltic Jewish cluster in a very similar way early last summer. It turned out to be quite extensive.
I believe it is generally thought that a lot of Spanish Jews converted to Christianity to avoid the Inquisition.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on March 09, 2010, 04:39:07 AM
I have checked an extensive list of Jewish Spanish surnames, but Trujillo is not included


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 09, 2010, 06:59:33 AM
The thing that strikes me is how much of the very small group of Iberian L21 is connected with the area near the NE border with France - Cantabria, Navarre and especially the Basque country.  The chances of such a high proportion of such a small L21 group being located in one corner of Iberia by chance is very remote  . S116* in contrast is everywhere in Iberia.  I believe the NE disttribtion in Iberia is a real pattern. If you consider L21's reasonable showing in the NE of Iberia it also makes the serious lack of it elsewhere on the peninisula a clearly genuine pattern.  I think this NE Iberian L21 group is probably simply the western edge of the main block of L21 in France/SW Germany etc.  Testing in centre-west Atlantic France has not been common enough to see the pattern there but I suspect it is common to the Garonne and not unknown south of the Garonne. Tke Aquitanian tribes had Celtic ones interspersed among them so there should not be any sharp DNA boundary, just trends.  


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on March 09, 2010, 01:37:30 PM
Alan or Rich,

Is there any L21 south of the Pyrenees/Basque Country?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on March 09, 2010, 06:33:37 PM
Is the part of N/E Spain in the Spanish March?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_March


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 09, 2010, 08:06:28 PM
Alan or Rich,

Is there any L21 south of the Pyrenees/Basque Country?

I would just go by the project maps which I understand demand that the person has a good paper trail as proof.  I would probably ignore the dot on Madrid as its a huge capital city and therfore a magnet to people all around Iberia and beyond.  I think from memory that that would leave just one guy in SW Spain.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 09, 2010, 09:14:25 PM
Alan or Rich,

Is there any L21 south of the Pyrenees/Basque Country?

If you click on the R-L21 European Continent Map link in my signature, check out Placemark 51. That's Montero, whose ancestor came from Caceres in Extremadura. Caceres is also where the city of Trujillo, Spain, is located.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 10, 2010, 08:38:34 AM
Robert Tarin sent me this link, which lists at least one Sephardic Jewish Trujillo:

http://www.sephardim.com/namelist.shtml?mode=form&from=T&to=T&Search=Search (http://www.sephardim.com/namelist.shtml?mode=form&from=T&to=T&Search=Search)

You have to scroll down a ways.

The listing says "Trujillo de(23)". The 23 is a reference to a list of works above the list of names.

"(23) From the book, "Secrecy and Deceit: The Religion of theCrypto-Jews", by David Gitlitz. The names of the Sephardim (and their residences) mentioned were, sometimes, involved with the inquisition. There were other names which are not listed here because the author did not identify those names as Sephardic.(~)"


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 04, 2010, 07:58:22 AM
I posted about this over on our Yahoo group, but I thought I should post it here, too.

I think the L21 drought on the Iberian Peninsula may end soon. I recruited a man with the Portuguese surname Pais but whose ancestor was born in Spain. I am about 99.9% convinced he is L21+ because he matches one of our Spanish R-L21 guys, Cantu, 36/37. We're not paying for Pais' testing. His sister (the sponsor) ordered the Deep Clade-R for him herself (after I offered her a free L21 test on us).
 
I also recruited another Portuguese man, Vargas. He is a 34/37 match for Costa, who is L21+, of Portuguese descent, and a project member. If I were a betting man, I would bet these two guys, Pais and Vargas, are L21+.
 
There is a third Iberian I am trying to recruit, Diaz, who is a 35/37 match for Montanez, another L21+ project member. I'm hoping Diaz will answer my email, but maybe there is a language issue there.
 
Anyway, I would be surprised if any of these men is L21-, real surprised.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on May 04, 2010, 10:28:40 AM
That's pretty neat. Where in Portugal and Spain are these folks from?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 04, 2010, 12:34:49 PM
That's pretty neat. Where in Portugal and Spain are these folks from?

Vargas' ancestor came from the Azores. Pais' ancestor came from the southeast of Spain, not far from the French border.

I don't know about Diaz yet because he has not responded to my email.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 04, 2010, 12:44:48 PM
Actually, I recently got this feeling (yes, a feeling) that L21 may not be so rare in Spain and Portugal after all.

It may not be as numerous as P312* or SRY2627 or even M153, but I think it will surpass U152 and U106 there.

Time will tell if I am right.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on May 05, 2010, 09:26:37 AM


Vargas' ancestor came from the Azores.

Unfortunatelly, since Azores was not populated until the 15th century that is pretty much the equivalent of a "Colonial" origin


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jean M on May 05, 2010, 07:59:18 PM


Vargas' ancestor came from the Azores.

Unfortunatelly, since Azores was not populated until the 15th century that is pretty much the equivalent of a "Colonial" origin

What difference does that make? The Azores were populated from Portugal.   


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 05, 2010, 08:18:15 PM
Yeah, I think it is pretty safe to say that people in the Azores with Portuguese surnames are Portuguese.

Anyway, I recruited another Spanish guy (Arevalo, who is a Spanish citizen) this evening who is a 32/37 match for Montero, one of our L21+ project members.

Five away at 37 markers is a bit of a stretch, but they both share some interesting off-modal markers (see Ysearch entries 64G8U and q3jqx), so I'm betting Arevalo is L21+, too.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on May 06, 2010, 05:20:26 AM
Well, first of all, Vargas is an Spanish surname, not a Portuguese one.
Second, anyone visiting Azores notice that the population is not like that of Portugal. Azores was empty before Europeans arrived in 1440, and it was colonized basically by Flemish inmigrants, so much that the centrsl islands were known for a long time as the Flemish Islands. People can change their surnames along generations, making them sound more familiar, so it will be nice to have an origin back in Iberia.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 06, 2010, 07:19:21 AM
L21 in Portugal would be interesting.  Actually even if you believe that Iberia is essentially an L21 negative zone in terms of R1b1b2 it is still surprising how little has been found there given how close it is to the L21 motherload in France and when you consider Iron Age Hallstatt influences that must have come via France, a long period as part of the multi-ethnic Roman empire, sub-Roman settlement by Britons, conquest by Suevi, Vandals, Visigoths etc who also held/passed through areas of France, French element in the Catalans, the Basques straddling the Spain-France border etc.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jean M on May 06, 2010, 12:45:42 PM
Second, anyone visiting Azores notice that the population is not like that of Portugal. Azores was empty before Europeans arrived in 1440, and it was colonized basically by Flemish immigrants, so much that the central islands were known for a long time as the Flemish Islands.

My mistake! My guidebook says:
Quote
The people of the Azores often have fair complexions and blue eyes, a reminder that Prince Henry [the Navigator] colonised the islands with Flemish knights from the Order of the Christ of Tomar. Shipwrecked sailors, for the most part Bretons, have intermingled with them.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 06, 2010, 01:19:19 PM
and do the population have Portuguese/Spanish names now generally or have Flemish surnames survived.  I just ask because it is interesting when a population undergo some sort of identity change.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 06, 2010, 02:32:43 PM
Vargas matches Costa 34/37, and both have ancestry in the Azores. I'm not ready to chalk them both up as the descendants of Flemish knights or wayward Bretons just yet.

But Pais matches Cantu, who has a Spanish surname and 17th century ancestry in Mexico, 36/37.

And Arevalo, a modern Spaniard, matches Montero 32/37. Arevalo could turn out to be L21-, but I think his chances of being L21+ are good.

Diaz matches Montanez 35/37, so, if I ever hear from Diaz so we can test him, I think he will be L21+, too.

Like I said, I don't think L21 is as numerous in Spain and Portugal as R-P312* or R-SRY2627, but I don't think it will be all that rare there either.

That represents a change of opinion for me.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on May 07, 2010, 06:23:40 AM
and do the population have Portuguese/Spanish names now generally or have Flemish surnames survived.  I just ask because it is interesting when a population undergo some sort of identity change.
They changed their surnames from the very start of the colony, for instance Willelm van der Haagen changed his name to Guilherme da Silveira, the Silveira of Azores are in general regarded as descendants of that Flemish family.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 07, 2010, 08:02:32 AM
I have also recruited a Romero who is a fairly close match to Sampedro, who is Spanish and L21+. I cannot guarantee that Romero is L21+, but if he is, he could be the connection to a goldmine of Spanish L21+, because he has a lot of pretty close matches to other men with Spanish surnames (names like Archuleta, Garcia, Valencia, Manchego, etc.).

I'm really hoping Romero goes L21+, but now we're doing the usual waiting thing.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 07, 2010, 08:54:16 AM
I have also recruited a Romero who is a fairly close match to Sampedro, who is Spanish and L21+. I cannot guarantee that Romero is L21+, but if he is, he could be the connection to a goldmine of Spanish L21+, because he has a lot of pretty close matches to other men with Spanish surnames (names like Archuleta, Garcia, Valencia, Manchego, etc.).
...
Do these guys come from any particular locale in Espana?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 07, 2010, 12:36:28 PM

Do these guys come from any particular locale in Espana?

I don't know yet. I don't even know that any of them can get his y line out of the New World.

If Romero gets an L21+ result, I'll be contacting them.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 07, 2010, 02:16:11 PM
Vargas matches Costa 34/37, and both have ancestry in the Azores. I'm not ready to chalk them both up as the descendants of Flemish knights or wayward Bretons just yet.

But Pais matches Cantu, who has a Spanish surname and 17th century ancestry in Mexico, 36/37.

And Arevalo, a modern Spaniard, matches Montero 32/37. Arevalo could turn out to be L21-, but I think his chances of being L21+ are good.

Diaz matches Montanez 35/37, so, if I ever hear from Diaz so we can test him, I think he will be L21+, too.

Like I said, I don't think L21 is as numerous in Spain and Portugal as R-P312* or R-SRY2627, but I don't think it will be all that rare there either.

That represents a change of opinion for me.

That would be a major change and would require a rethink of possible origins.  If there is a significant amount in Iberia it does seems strange how long it has remained very rare in most of the peninsula to date.  If it does have a significant distribution, it will be interesting to see whether it is in the east/centre or (like in the isles, France, Norway) it is strong it is concentrated on maritime Atlantic facing areas.  To date there does seem a very noticeable skew towards the NE of Spain.  There is definately a small cluster there that cannot be chance.  However, the model that sees Atlantic Bronze Age networks as linked to languages and genes would need L21 along the metal-rich Atlantic areas of Portugal and Galicia not the NE of Spain.   


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 07, 2010, 02:45:25 PM
I am pretty confident Pais, Vargas, and Diaz are L21+. We will find out soon enough about the first two because their tests are under way. Diaz has not responded to my email, and I'm losing hope that he will.

Arevalo and Romero are more iffy, but I think there's a good chance in both cases.

Like I said before, if Romero is L21+, he could potentially bring in five other men with y-dna origins Spain. Men with the surnames Archuleta, Garcia, Lopez, Manchego and Valencia are all within a gd of three or less of Romero at 37 markers, so I figure that whatever subclade Romero is in, they're in it, as well.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on May 07, 2010, 02:48:50 PM
I figured some more L21 holes would fill up. You just gotta wait for the matches to come in!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 07, 2010, 09:48:50 PM
I figured some more L21 holes would fill up. You just gotta wait for the matches to come in!

I'm kind of excited about it. It's a new avenue to pursue.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 08, 2010, 12:50:19 PM
I figured some more L21 holes would fill up. You just gotta wait for the matches to come in!

I'm kind of excited about it. It's a new avenue to pursue.

Well you have done everything above and beyond the call of duty to try to look into continental L21, especially in France, a country/heritage thats DNA data needed a helping hand due to a lack of testers.  Hopefully you get some luck in a more intensive Iberian trawl because I know how difficult it has been in much of France to get anyone to even test for L21/deep clade. I had hoped that once it became clear that L21 was common in France and adjacent areas, the early idea that it was an isles originated clade had been dispelled that more French and other continentals would see it as a worthwhile test that wouldnt be simply spending good money only for people to tell you your ancestors were monks, slaves etc who had settled in the historic period on the continent from Ireland or Britain.   However, the idea that there would be a tipping point when enough L21 was on the map that there would be an increase in continental interest in L21 has not really materialized.  As far as I am concerned though the L21 project has proved that there is more L21 on the continent that anyone sane would explain as due to migration from the isles.  

I would still stand by the opinion that there are no archaeologically indicated population movements directly between Iberia and the isles in prehistory and contact was limited to metalwork trade in part of the Bronze Age.  The archaeological evidence generally indicates that France  (and the Low Countries) were far more n contact with the isles in prehistory, as indeed they were in the early historical period. However, some parts of France clearly were linked to some parts of Iberia at various times in prehistory so its hard to imagine that there is a ton of L21 throughout France and almost none in most of Iberia as the project maps suggest UNLESS L21 is primarily a northern thing in France and is rare in the south, centre and south-west of France.    


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 08, 2010, 02:11:18 PM
Thanks, Alan. I got kind of interested in the Iberian thing when I spotted such close matches for a couple of the Iberian L21+ guys we already have. I must also confess that lately I have felt like I am beating my head against a brick wall trying to recruit more Frenchmen to test. You would not believe how many of them just never respond to my emails and the emails I have FTDNA send them. I have found some really good French candidates, very likely L21+, but they just don't seem to care . . . or maybe they're dead; I don't know.

I'm kind of gun shy about venturing about too far east of the Rhineland. I think we have to test 10 or 15 guys out in those parts to turn up one R-L21.

I apologize to everyone, too, for not feeling too enthused about pursuing Scandinavia for more L21. Every time we get a new L21+ there, it seems, someone tries (or some many try) to dissect the haplotype to find a connection to Ireland or Scotland. It's not worth the aggravation.

Sometimes I feel like dropping out of the R-L21 thing altogether.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 08, 2010, 02:53:58 PM
Thanks, Alan. I got kind of interested in the Iberian thing when I spotted such close matches for a couple of the Iberian L21+ guys we already have. I must also confess that lately I have felt like I am beating my head against a brick wall trying to recruit more Frenchmen to test. You would not believe how many of them just never respond to my emails and the emails I have FTDNA send them. I have found some really good French candidates, very likely L21+, but they just don't seem to care . . . or maybe they're dead; I don't know.

I'm kind of gun shy about venturing about too far east of the Rhineland. I think we have to test 10 or 15 guys out in those parts to turn up one R-L21.

I apologize to everyone, too, for not feeling too enthused about pursuing Scandinavia for more L21. Every time we get a new L21+ there, it seems, someone tries (or some many try) to dissect the haplotype to find a connection to Ireland or Scotland. It's not worth the aggravation.

Sometimes I feel like dropping out of the R-L21 thing altogether.

I really hope you do not do that.  The progress in this hobby hinges on the efforts of a very few people who are either very determined or a maths genius (or both). 

Personally though I think some day all R1b1b2 hobbiests and projects will need to get together and try and fund a proper blind sampling of R1b1b2 across Europe.  That is the only way we will ever know the real patterns of the various major R1b1b2 clades.  That study of R1b1b2 in France by Santiago de Compostella University recently was pretty close (bar using L21) to doing this for one country.  It all depends on how many people actually are interested in knowing the clade breakdown across Europe.  Many are more in it from the point of view of genealogy and therefore are looking well downstream of L21. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 08, 2010, 03:15:32 PM
Well, it seems to me we never get a break. We got to watch for a few years while all the discussion forums went on and on (and on and on) about S21 and S28 (aka U106 and U152), their respective "invader" status in Britain, and how they represented the original Germans and the "true Celts", respectively, yada-yada-yada.

Just when L21 becomes commercially available, and a bunch of us find out we are L21+, the world's economy goes in the toilet. I'm pretty sure that has cut drastically into the Deep Clade-R testing that is going on.

L21 starts turning up in France in pretty good numbers, and - voila! - a scientific study of French R1b1b2
appears . . . minus any testing for L21!

Good grief!

The exact same thing happened with Belgium and the government-sponsored Brabant Project: loads of testing . . . with SNPs nearly two years behind the times!

Makes me want to chew glass.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 08, 2010, 05:34:23 PM
Well, it seems to me we never get a break. We got to watch for a few years while all the discussion forums went on and on (and on and on) about S21 and S28 (aka U106 and U152), their respective "invader" status in Britain, and how they represented the original Germans and the "true Celts", respectively, yada-yada-yada.

Just when L21 becomes commercially available, and a bunch of us find out we are L21+, the world's economy goes in the toilet. I'm pretty sure that has cut drastically into the Deep Clade-R testing that is going on.

L21 starts turning up in France in pretty good numbers, and - voila! - a scientific study of French R1b1b2
appears . . . minus any testing for L21!

Good grief!

The exact same thing happened with Belgium and the government-sponsored Brabant Project: loads of testing . . . with SNPs nearly two years behind the times!

Makes me want to chew glass.

I still think those projects category for R1b1b2 that is untested for S116 and L21 but negative for the other main SNPs is giving us a rough idea of like L21 percentage. The vast bulk of this group must be L21 and S116*.  Both SNPs were discovered at a similar time but of course both clades by definition require an L21 test to have taken place. When I look at the project maps for L21 and S116*, north of the Alps and Pyrenees, L21 is as common or more common than S116* in many areas except perhaps around the Baltic.  That would suggest to me that L21 in much of western Europe is at least half (but probably more) of the 'others' (surely overwhelmingly S116* and L21) R1b1b2 group in those studies.  What is very frustrating is the fact the Santiago French study didnt even give a breakdown for the SNPs they did use. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on May 09, 2010, 12:14:21 AM
Well, it seems to me we never get a break. We got to watch for a few years while all the discussion forums went on and on (and on and on) about S21 and S28 (aka U106 and U152), their respective "invader" status in Britain, and how they represented the original Germans and the "true Celts", respectively, yada-yada-yada.

Just when L21 becomes commercially available, and a bunch of us find out we are L21+, the world's economy goes in the toilet. I'm pretty sure that has cut drastically into the Deep Clade-R testing that is going on.

L21 starts turning up in France in pretty good numbers, and - voila! - a scientific study of French R1b1b2
appears . . . minus any testing for L21!

Good grief!

The exact same thing happened with Belgium and the government-sponsored Brabant Project: loads of testing . . . with SNPs nearly two years behind the times!

Makes me want to chew glass.

Hey Rich,

I completely empathize with you on this. I also agree with Alan that a blind sample is needed to determine an accurate representation of L21 throughout Europe.

We have to deal with the huge British and Irish samples, as well as the jump-start that U106 and U152 had. If P312 and L21 were discovered first... Man, commentary would look a lot different!

But we are starting to dispel myths about L21, especially with its fruitful presence in Scandinavia. We just need more samples from regions like this SNP tested. It is a bit slow right now, but they will come. And you know I will send any interesting samples for L21 testing your way!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 09, 2010, 05:15:04 PM
I don't think we really know yet what L21 in Scandinavia represents, so I am not sure we have dispelled any myths there yet. To me, Scandinavia is a big question mark where L21 is concerned.

I am hoping for some speedy results for our Iberian Peninsula guys. I have high hopes for all of them, but I am really hoping Romero is L21+ because of all the potential candidates he could bring in with him.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 09, 2010, 05:26:28 PM
By the way, some of you may have noticed that I created some extra categories on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project to reflect the possible origins of the men, like me, who cannot yet trace their y-lines to Europe.

The addition of the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surnames" category helps show that L21 may not be as rare on the Iberian Peninsula as we thought.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on May 09, 2010, 09:14:23 PM
It's not too surprising to me. After all L21+ is the good looking mutaion.
It also has a deep measure of modesty too.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 12, 2010, 08:11:09 PM
A new R-L21 with the surname Chavez just joined our Yahoo group. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. I am hoping he is also an FTDNA customer and can join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I'm trying to get his info for the map, at the very least.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 14, 2010, 08:32:25 PM
A new R-L21 with the surname Chavez just joined our Yahoo group. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. I am hoping he is also an FTDNA customer and can join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I'm trying to get his info for the map, at the very least.

I heard from Mr. Chavez. He plans to order an FTDNA y-dna test and join the project, but, unfortunately, he can't get his paper trail across the Pond yet.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 20, 2010, 09:49:19 PM
I am very close to recruiting another individual of confirmed Spanish ancestry who I am almost certain is L21+.

I'll let you all know if he signs on. He expressed the desire to test for L21 but just needs to join the project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 21, 2010, 07:54:10 PM
I am very close to recruiting another individual of confirmed Spanish ancestry who I am almost certain is L21+.

I'll let you all know if he signs on. He expressed the desire to test for L21 but just needs to join the project.

He joined. The surname is De Herrera. The entry on our Y-DNA Results page shows a most distant ancestor born in New Mexico, but the actual most distant ancestor was born in Spain.

If I were a betting man, I would bet this individual will get an L21+ result.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on May 23, 2010, 04:09:56 PM
Where in Spain?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 23, 2010, 04:47:39 PM
Where in Spain?

The lady in charge doesn't know. I thought she did, but I misinterpreted her email. All she has is that the parents of her most distant ancestor were born in Spain.

The World Names Profiler shows the surname De Herrera as most common in Andalucia and Cataluña.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 23, 2010, 05:35:52 PM
There is a town of Herrera, Spain, in Andalucia:

Herrera (http://tinyurl.com/2fqv3gb)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 27, 2010, 07:54:20 AM
Since no L21 results came in last night, and I am bored, I thought I would set out our pending Iberian research.

Here are the men of Iberian Peninsula ancestry for whom we are awaiting L21 test results.

Arévalo  -  Ysearch 64G8U

De Herrera  -  No Ysearch entry

Guirao  -  Ysearch AGUMU

Pais  -  Ysearch 92QN6

Romero  -  Ysearch 7K7QZ

Vargas  -  Ysearch CY5FZ

Here's how I would further classify these men.

Almost Certainly L21+

De Herrera (35/37 match with Foerstner, a German, who is L21+)

Pais (36/37 match with Cantu, who is L21+)

Vargas (34/37 match with Costa, who is L21+)


Excellent Chance of Being L21+

Arévalo (closest match, 32/37, is with Montero, who is L21+)

Romero (closest match, 32/37, is with Sampedro, who is L21+)


L21+?

Guirao (has many fairly close L21+ matches, but he has lots of fairly close matches period, some outside of L21)

I mentioned Diaz in a previous post or two in this thread. He matches Montanez, who is L21+, 35/37, and so is almost certainly L21+, but Mr. Diaz never responded to any of my emails. Unfortunately, that kind of thing happens all too often.

Anyway, were I a betting man, I would wager large sums on De Herrera, Pais and Vargas as sure to be L21+. I would bet a little less on Arévalo and Romero, but I still think the odds are in favor of an L21+ result apiece for them, too. With Guirao, it's hard to tell. He could be L21+, as well.

I'll let you all know how this comes out, as soon as we start getting some of these results in.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 27, 2010, 05:46:39 PM
That is a large lineup and one way or another it will tell us something.  If there is L21 then that boosts a relatively poor representation considerably and give pause for further thought.   Perhaps a geographical pattern will emerge (there is a hint that L21 in Iberia is mainly an eastern Spain thing).  If few are L21 in a large group like that it would confirm the reality of the current poor representation.

Which ones have paper trails back to the old world?  I think that is important.  If the representation of L21 is higher among those with no paper trails than it is among those who do have them (which seems rather low at present) then that would be a concern.  Actually that would be an interesting comparison for other countries too. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 27, 2010, 09:23:27 PM
I did not think I would have anything to report so soon, but Pais and Vargas both went L21+ this evening.

Pais is Spanish. His immigrant ancestor came to the USA from Les Valls d'Aguilar in Catalonia, pretty close to the French border.

Vargas is Portuguese. His ancestor came from Castelo Branco on the island of Faial in the Azores.

Of the rest, Romero is an American with several Spanish matches, but I don't believe he can currently get his y line past early New Mexico.

Arévalo is a Spanish citizen, as is Guirao.

De Herrera traces a named y ancestor to early New Mexico but knows that his ancestor's parents were both born in Spain. He just doesn't know their names. That is very common in North American genealogy, to have the national origin of a person's parents mentioned but not their names.

We now have 15 L21+ members of the R-L21 Plus Project who can either trace their ancestry back to the Iberian Peninsula or who at least have Spanish or Portuguese surnames.

Of those, seven can trace their y lines to Spain, and two can trace their y lines to Portugal.

The other six cannot get their y lines across the Pond yet but are apparently of Iberian Peninsula descent.

EDIT: I forgot to add that there are also a couple of Spanish L21+ guys out there, Barreto, kit 46448, and Larrea/Fernandes, kit 162171, who just don't seem to want to join the R-L21 Plus Project, although I have pursued both of them.
 
So, make that at least 17 Iberian L21+ guys.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 28, 2010, 07:57:13 AM
Its an odd situation that there seems to be some L21 in Iberia judging by Latin Americans but yet in terms of paper trail confirmed cases it looks very sparse across most of the Iberian peninsula on project maps which I suppose compare like with like.  What intrigues me is that there seems to be more close to France and little in the northwest and mainland Portugal which are seen as the main Iberian part of the Atlantic metal trade in the bronze age.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 28, 2010, 12:35:46 PM
Its an odd situation that there seems to be some L21 in Iberia judging by Latin Americans but yet in terms of paper trail confirmed cases it looks very sparse across most of the Iberian peninsula on project maps which I suppose compare like with like.  What intrigues me is that there seems to be more close to France and little in the northwest and mainland Portugal which are seen as the main Iberian part of the Atlantic metal trade in the bronze age.

Yeah, it's too bad not all of our L21+ guys with Spanish or Portuguese surnames can get their paper trails across the Atlantic.

With regard to mainland Portugal versus the Azores, again I think that comes down to North American immigration patterns. It seems to me most of the Portuguese immigrants to the USA came from the Azores or by way of the Azores.

Remember also that the Iberian Peninsula, like the rest of continental Europe, is under represented in the genetic genealogy databases.

While I don't think L21 can compete with R-SRY2627 and R-P312* there, I think it will surpass U152 and U106 and their subclades.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 28, 2010, 01:20:37 PM
I do wonder sometimes if L21 expanded due to some martime clan of s116 who maybe had developed sea travel to a more advanced degree  and also major rivers flowing into NW Europe. In a number of places it seems big in areas that are particularly maritime- Atlantic Britain, Ireland, NW France, NE Spain, Brittany, Norway etc. Maybe the portugese will follow this  too. The isles and Norway can only have been settled by peoples with good maritime tradiions.   


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 28, 2010, 07:10:06 PM
I was able to improve the R-L21 European Continent Map a bit this evening relative to Spain. Trujillo sent me an excellent pedigree all the way to Andalucia in 1588 which enabled me to get his placemark out of Madrid and over to the right region (Andalucia).

On the negative results front, Guirao went L21-, sadly. If you recall, I put him in the iffy category to begin with. His haplotype is one of those that seems to be in just about everyone's neighborhood.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 29, 2010, 08:00:33 AM
Jackpot!

I got up this morning to find that both Arévalo and Romero have gone L21+!

Arévalo, as I mentioned before, is a Spanish citizen. He has his project map (the FTDNA one on our Y-DNA Results page) pin in Madrid, but I need to get more information on that.

Romero is an American who traces his most distant y-dna ancestor to early New Mexico, but, as I also mentioned before, he has five Spanish matches, all within a gd of three or less at 37 markers and with five different surnames. Unless I am mistaken, all five of those gentlemen are also L21+.

Too bad we are just about out of General Fund money to sponsor testing! :-(

These results mean that thus far four out of the six men with Spanish or Portuguese surnames we have sponsored have gone L21+. We are still waiting for De Herrera's result, and I am pretty confident he will also be L21+, so it looks pretty likely to be five out of six.

Not bad! :-)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on May 29, 2010, 09:00:59 AM
It looks like L21 is a mere extension of its P312* father in Iberia. Kudos to you Rich for pursuing a better sample!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 29, 2010, 09:10:36 AM
It looks like L21 is a mere extension of its P312* father in Iberia. Kudos to you Rich for pursuing a better sample!

Well, I still think L21 won't come close to R-SRY2627 or R-P312* in Iberia, but P312* will eventually break down into a number of different subclades, so it won't be the monolithic block it currently appears to be.

I do think the signs are that L21 is not insignificant on the Iberian Peninsula. I think it surpasses both U106 and its subclades and U152 and its subclades there.

I think the real question now is whether L21 spilled over into Iberia from France or actually arose in Iberia and spread east.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 29, 2010, 09:17:34 AM
That is great news and a bit of a morale boost after a bit of a bad run.  Regarding Iberia though I think we know there is at least a modest L21 presence overall in Iberia and perhaps a pocket where it is more significant somewhere in Iberia.  However, dots on the maps on Madrid and on semi-colonial Azores do not really help with the question of ancient distribution on the Iberian peninsula.  I tend to ignore capital city dots for all countries when considering finer distribution.  

If you do that and look at the remainder in the Iberian peninsula it seems clear to me (beyond chance in such a small sample) that it is somewhat skewed towards the Spanish-French border area.  The new Catalonian dot adds to this impression.   Now this obviously cuts across various linguistic barriers and includes Basques, Catalans and Cantabrians so its a geographical trend rather than one with an ethnic/linguistic basis. I would guess this implies that L21 predates the historic period divisions of eastern Spain into several language blocks.  

The Azores and a few other dots towards the Atlantic side of Iberia also give some food for thought about the possibility of a link to Atlantic  coast too but there is not a lot in between.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 29, 2010, 09:29:10 AM
Iberia being at the western terminus of the European continent does tell us something important.  Basically when you compare geography with archaeology it seems likely that whatever period it came into being, Iberian and French L21 must derive from each other. The question is in which direction?  The main thing I note is that L21 in Iberia (when you ignore Madrid and the Azores) is clearly very overrepresented in the eastern extremity and extremely sparse throughout the remainder of the peninsula compared to S116*.  So, I would guess that an overspill from France is the most intuitive explanation.  There are a number of periods where east-west movements passed through France on the way to Spain and indeed it i was impossible to not get to Spain without passing long areas of France or its coast. The only other scenario is one I have already raised to explain the distribution of L21 in Iberia: L21 occurred just as S116* was passing out of Iberia into France.  Personally other than the Beaker period (which I think is still too problematic to use as a model) most movements indicated archaeologically moved to not from Iberia.  It is possible that the beaker period is the one exception to this but this needs further work.  I take it that there are not enough Iberians tested for enough STRs to do a variance calculation? 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 29, 2010, 09:53:45 AM
I would also add that the whole question of whether L21 was earliest in France or Iberia also being to mind the question of S116.  Where is it oldest.  I know S116* is a paragroup but a variance calculation comparing it in Iberia to it in France would still be of interest. I have seen some calculations that indicate low variance in Iberia for S116 compared to France. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: MHammers on May 29, 2010, 10:43:35 AM
I'm getting .23 for Iberian L21 including American members of Spanish descent.  However, only 7 have tested for 67 markers.  If you take France as the center of gravity @.274 (n=22),and with Scandinavia and Scotland at .24, Iberia at .23 probably isn't the L21 origin.

For P312 using the same method,

France - .265, n=13@65 markers
Iberian - .247, n=7@65 markers

P312 and L21 are close in variance with the French(L21 actually a little higher maybe due to sample size)and appear to be oldest there.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 29, 2010, 12:08:22 PM
The variances and distribution pattern do seem to indicate that L21+ expanded from the Rhine Vally north to Scandinavia, north and east to Brittany and Britain (and Ireland) as well as west and south to Iberia.

As far as P312+ itself, I don't know.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: MHammers on May 29, 2010, 12:36:17 PM
The variances and distribution pattern do seem to indicate that L21+ expanded from the Rhine Vally north to Scandinavia, north and east to Brittany and Britain (and Ireland) as well as west and south to Iberia.

As far as P312+ itself, I don't know.

P312+ is highest in the eastern Europe sample, whereas eastern European L21+ is the youngest for L21.  So yes, P312 and L21 are both radiating outward from the Rhine area, maybe east France or SW Germany.  The P312 in Eastern Europe is likely older, yet smaller in actual numbers.  My guess is P312 rapidly moved up the Danube to Switzerland and SW Germany.  L21 was born shortly thereafter.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 29, 2010, 12:57:10 PM
I think we are looking at Eastern or Southeastern Europe for the origin of P312, with L21 perhaps arising in SW Germany or in France.

But (as Pee Wee Herman once said, "Everybody's got a big but") we still don't know that much about L21 in Iberia.

Two of the placemarks in Madrid are from guys who have not joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet (Barreto and Larrea/Fernandes), so all I know about them is that they have ancestry somewhere in Spain. The other placemark in Madrid is Arévalo. I think he may have just chosen "Spain" for his Plot Ancestral Locations page, and FTDNA's map kind of automatically stuck the pin in Madrid. I simply followed that lead until I can get better info from Arévalo himself.

Montero's ancestor came from Caceres in Extremadura in West-Central Spain, and Trujillo's ancestor came from Andalucia in SW Spain, so not all the placemarks on my map are in the East.

I know of one guy from the Eupedia forum who is L21+, Portuguese, and has ancestry on the Portuguese mainland (Viana do Castelo on the coast of NW Portugal), but he has a mania for privacy, so he won't give me the name of his ancestor for the map. He is not an FTDNA customer, so he can't join the project.

There are the five CLOSE (a gd of three or less) 37-marker matches of Romero who are all surely L21+: Archuleta, Garcia, Lopez, Manchego and Valencia. We don't know where in Spain their ancestors came from, but they all do identify themselves as Spanish. Whether or not that means they can actually get their paper trails out of the New World, I don't know yet. I really want to get them into the project. With so many matches and so many different Spanish surnames, I suspect we could be looking at a Spanish L21+ cluster.

Then there is Diaz, who is a 35/37 match for our L21+ Montanez. He is surely L21+, too, but he has not answered my emails.

Lastly, there is Chavez, whom I mentioned earlier in this thread. He tested L21+ with 23andMe and has ordered a 67-marker test from FTDNA. He will likely join the R-L21 Plus Project as soon as he can, but, unfortunately, he cannot get his paper trail out of the New World.

So that makes an additional eight likely Spanish or Portuguese L21+ guys that we know about.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 29, 2010, 02:34:05 PM
I forgot to mention De Herrera in my last post above, so make that nine additional likely Spanish or Portuguese L21+ guys we know about.

One distinction I should make between our Iberian and French testing is that the Iberian testing has not been random the way the French testing was. I have been able to find men of Iberian descent who, because of matches with other Iberian L21+ men, look likely to be L21+. With our French testing we just launched out into the deep and were blessed with a big catch.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on May 29, 2010, 02:39:57 PM
My guess is P312 rapidly moved up the Danube to Switzerland and SW Germany.  L21 was born shortly thereafter.
This is my best guess as well, with L21 being born, or at least expanding from,  somewhere in the general vicinity of Switzerland and SW Germany.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 29, 2010, 08:56:30 PM
Trujillo was able to update his most distant y-dna ancestor's birthplace with a more precise location: Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucia, Spain.

It's on the Atlantic coast in SW Spain, near Cadiz.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 30, 2010, 05:36:06 AM
I forgot to mention De Herrera in my last post above, so make that nine additional likely Spanish or Portuguese L21+ guys we know about.

One distinction I should make between our Iberian and French testing is that the Iberian testing has not been random the way the French testing was. I have been able to find men of Iberian descent who, because of matches with other Iberian L21+ men, look likely to be L21+. With our French testing we just launched out into the deep and were blessed with a big catch.

I really hope people appreciate the problem with the French and how it really is like blind sampling rather than chasing STR matches. So, is the main problem identifying French L21 simply a lack of people tested for a good number of STRs or are the French L21 simply very diverse making clusters harder to find?   


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 30, 2010, 08:16:08 AM
I really hope people appreciate the problem with the French and how it really is like blind sampling rather than chasing STR matches. So, is the main problem identifying French L21 simply a lack of people tested for a good number of STRs or are the French L21 simply very diverse making clusters harder to find?   

It's both really. It seems to me, without going back and providing a detailed analysis, that our French L21+ guys don't have a lot of high-resolution matches or close haplotype neighbors.

I couldn't just look for the French haplotype neighbors of French L21+ men. I wish I could, and perhaps as more Frenchmen get y-dna tests that will become possible, but so far they just aren't there.

So we just tested whoever was willing to give us permission. Fortunately, half or more of them turned out to actually be L21+.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 30, 2010, 08:23:43 AM
Garcia, who traces his ancestry to Spain and is a 36/37 match for our L21+ Romero, has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. I am just waiting now for his email permission to test him for L21.

I also heard from Archuleta, who is very interested, but he hasn't joined the project yet.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 31, 2010, 12:18:17 AM
Garcia is being tested for L21, but his test marks the tapping out of the last of the R-L21 Plus Project General Fund (other than a $29 contribution made by another individual to pay for his own test).

Hopefully, some generous individuals will see the value in the continental testing we do and help us to continue it.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on May 31, 2010, 04:32:08 PM
I think we are looking at Eastern or Southeastern Europe for the origin of P312, with L21 perhaps arising in SW Germany or in France.

But (as Pee Wee Herman once said, "Everybody's got a big but") we still don't know that much about L21 in Iberia.

Two of the placemarks in Madrid are from guys who have not joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet (Barreto and Larrea/Fernandes), so all I know about them is that they have ancestry somewhere in Spain. The other placemark in Madrid is Arévalo. I think he may have just chosen "Spain" for his Plot Ancestral Locations page, and FTDNA's map kind of automatically stuck the pin in Madrid. I simply followed that lead until I can get better info from Arévalo himself.

Montero's ancestor came from Caceres in Extremadura in West-Central Spain, and Trujillo's ancestor came from Andalucia in SW Spain, so not all the placemarks on my map are in the East.

I know of one guy from the Eupedia forum who is L21+, Portuguese, and has ancestry on the Portuguese mainland (Viana do Castelo on the coast of NW Portugal), but he has a mania for privacy, so he won't give me the name of his ancestor for the map. He is not an FTDNA customer, so he can't join the project.

There are the five CLOSE (a gd of three or less) 37-marker matches of Romero who are all surely L21+: Archuleta, Garcia, Lopez, Manchego and Valencia. We don't know where in Spain their ancestors came from, but they all do identify themselves as Spanish. Whether or not that means they can actually get their paper trails out of the New World, I don't know yet. I really want to get them into the project. With so many matches and so many different Spanish surnames, I suspect we could be looking at a Spanish L21+ cluster.

Then there is Diaz, who is a 35/37 match for our L21+ Montanez. He is surely L21+, too, but he has not answered my emails.

Lastly, there is Chavez, whom I mentioned earlier in this thread. He tested L21+ with 23andMe and has ordered a 67-marker test from FTDNA. He will likely join the R-L21 Plus Project as soon as he can, but, unfortunately, he cannot get his paper trail out of the New World.

So that makes an additional eight likely Spanish or Portuguese L21+ guys that we know about.
Regarding some of the surnames quoted, Barreto is a Galician surname, while Larrea and Archuleta are Basques. The others have no particular region of origen


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 31, 2010, 09:14:29 PM

Regarding some of the surnames quoted, Barreto is a Galician surname, while Larrea and Archuleta are Basques. The others have no particular region of origen

Thanks! I wish I could get Barreto and Larrea to join the project. I even had FTDNA write them for me, but they just have never responded.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 01, 2010, 07:11:35 PM
Regarding some of the surnames quoted, Barreto is a Galician surname, while Larrea and Archuleta are Basques. The others have no particular region of origen

You were right on the money about the surname Archuleta. Archuleta's most distant ancestor came from Eibar in Guipuzcoa in the Basque country.

That's our third L21+ from the Basque country (I am assuming Archuleta will be confirmed L21+ because he matches Romero 37/37).


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 01, 2010, 08:48:18 PM
Its interesting that earliest ancestral location known from either paper trail or just from the surname history shows L21 spread among Basques (bit of a concentration). Cantabrians, Catalonians, Portugese, Galicians, Andalucians, Castilians etc etc.  It does not therefore seem to correlate with the divisions of Iberia known in the early history. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 02, 2010, 07:48:50 AM
Its interesting that earliest ancestral location known from either paper trail or just from the surname history shows L21 spread among Basques (bit of a concentration). Cantabrians, Catalonians, Portugese, Galicians, Andalucians, Castilians etc etc.  It does not therefore seem to correlate with the divisions of Iberia known in the early history.  

Right. It seems spread about and not restricted to any particular region or group.

And thus far, with admittedly limited numbers and hardly any 67-marker haplotypes, it appears to be younger than the L21 in neighboring France.

What kind of amazes me, and this may be due to a sampling problem that is a consequence of North American immigration patterns, is the lack of L21 thus far in France nearest the Spanish border. If L21 is not insignificant in Spain, then shouldn't we see a more even distribution across the Pyrenees in southern France?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on June 02, 2010, 10:31:22 AM
Regarding some of the surnames quoted, Barreto is a Galician surname, while Larrea and Archuleta are Basques. The others have no particular region of origen

You were right on the money about the surname Archuleta. Archuleta's most distant ancestor came from Eibar in Guipuzcoa in the Basque country.

Wow, just a few kms away from where my family comes!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 02, 2010, 11:33:14 AM
If it is young then it would be very interesting to know its age. For a thin but widespread clade/cluster to have a fairly recent MRCA would be fascinating.  Anyone up to calculating it?  Also what are the closest relatives of this cluster outside Spain?  

I still look at the map and do not think it is random.  The Baques, the Cantabrians, Portugal and even Andalusia do have a maritime aspect.  You could say the Basques and Portuguese are famous for their sea faring rather like Bretons.  Maybe I am looking too hard to see a pattern though and again perhaps American migration patterns may favour these areas over land locked ones.    


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 02, 2010, 06:23:41 PM
If it is young then it would be very interesting to know its age. For a thin but widespread clade/cluster to have a fairly recent MRCA would be fascinating.  Anyone up to calculating it?  Also what are the closest relatives of this cluster outside Spain?  
I'm not seeing any relationship between this cluster (I'm labeling it 1012SP in the spreadsheet) and other Spanish/Portuguese R-L21* folks.

I can do TMRCA's using different tools but I hate to when you are doing with just a few people and limited haplotypes.   Within reason, I can get almost any number you want by deciding what to include or not include and which method.

Relatively speaking, though, Iberia's R-L21* looks more youthful.

The sum of the variance across 25 markers for R-L21* in Iberia is 7.1

For comparison:
France 7.9
England 7.7
Ireland 7.6


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 18, 2010, 08:06:30 AM
De Herrera, kit 171230 (no Ysearch entry yet), went L21+ sometime overnight.

He doesn't know where in Spain his immigrant ancestor came from. The one he can name was born in New Mexico, but he knows that one's parents were both born in Spain.

I mentioned before that there is a town in Spain called Herrera (http://tinyurl.com/2fzla6c). It's in Andalucia, and, of course, the surname De Herrera means "of Herrera".


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on June 18, 2010, 02:57:23 PM
Meaning & History
Herrera

1. Spanish and Jewish (Sephardic): habitational name from villages so called in the provinces of Seville and Badajoz, from a word meaning ‘iron smithy’, ‘blacksmith's forge’ (a derivative of hierro ‘iron’, Latin ferrum).

2. French: habitational name from the Gascon form of Ferrière, a place in Pyrénées-Atlantique. The place name is derived from Latina ferraria ‘iron-mine’, ‘iron-forge’.

http://names.whitepages.com/last/Herrera

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Gascon
Gas·con   /ˈgæskən/  Show Spelled[gas-kuhn]  Show IPA
–noun
1. a native of Gascony, France, the inhabitants of which were reputedly very boastful.
2. ( lowercase ) a boaster or braggart.
–adjective
3. pertaining to Gascony or its people.
4. ( lowercase ) boastful; bragging.

Origin:
1325–75; ME gascoyne, gascoun  < OF, ult. < L Vascōnēs  the inhabitants of the Basque country and adjacent areas
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Gascon


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on June 18, 2010, 03:13:40 PM
The surname Herrera has several origins in Spain

It is very common in Santander, originary from the town of Herrera de Camargo

Another origin is in the town of Pedraza, in Segovia, where a Gonzalo Pelaez de Herrera is already attested in 1163

There is also a Basque Herrera, to be an "Herrera" is to be a blacksmith, in a bad spanish as spoken by a Basque.  This one is from the town of Azpeitia.

Then, there are the translations for Jewish, Italians, Portuguese...surnames of similar sounding

The surname is really very common in Spain and very difficult to pinpoint an origin without additional data


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 18, 2010, 06:56:09 PM
Doesn't the "De" make De Herrera sound more like a place name than an occupational name?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: John Browne Ayes on June 18, 2010, 09:13:08 PM
The Spanish surname can get very complex.

For example, Juan Ponce de Leon,
Juan is the individual's first name.
Ponce is the family name remembering Poncio de Minerva and Ponce de Cabrera
De Leon can either mean of Leon
or of the Lions.

In the surname de Herrera its most likely remembering a family member, of the Herreras.
What I have seen a lot in Spanish geneaolgy:
1: Researchers neglect to add the maternal name of the individual.
For example: My name is John J. Browne the maternal name is Ayes.
So my full name is: John J. Browne Ayes.
Now here the complex part:
If you were applying for entry into an order like the calatrava you had to submit a family tree that included your paternal parents and their parents
you also had to submit your maternal parents and their parents
So, within the order of Calatrava I would have been known as:

John Browne, Browne, Ayes de Jesus y Ortiz

Hope this helps.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 18, 2010, 09:22:24 PM
The Spanish surname can get very complex.

For example, Juan Ponce de Leon,
Juan is the individual's first name.
Ponce is the family name remembering Poncio de Minerva and Ponce de Cabrera
De Leon can either mean of Leon
or of the Lions.

In the surname de Herrera its most likely remembering a family member, of the Herreras.
What I have seen a lot in Spanish geneaolgy:
1: Researchers neglect to add the maternal name of the individual.
For example: My name is John J. Browne the maternal name is Ayes.
So my full name is: John J. Browne Ayes.
Now here the complex part:
If you were applying for entry into an order like the calatrava you had to submit a family tree that included your paternal parents and their parents
you also had to submit your maternal parents and their parents
So, within the order of Calatrava I would have been known as:

John Browne, Browne, Ayes de Jesus y Ortiz

Hope this helps.

I've got to confess, it's a bit confusing.

Is there a quick way to spot the surname that would be linked to the procession of the y chromosome?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on June 21, 2010, 07:09:42 AM
Theoretically, the first surname is that of the male line, however that was only a rule since 19th century, before that an individual could select his surname, for instance, the 16th century noblemen Juan de Requesens and Iñigo de Mendoza were brothers.
The preposition "de" in a surname has generally a social meaning, related to aristocratic families, although since 19th century it has been adopted widely by burguese fanilies.
Basque surnames, OTOH, are much more useful from a genealogic perspective, they were fixed very early and you can follow a male line for many centuries, up to the 11th century sometimes.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 21, 2010, 07:26:33 AM
Theoretically, the first surname is that of the male line, however that was only a rule since 19th century, before that an individual could select his surname, for instance, the 16th century noblemen Juan de Requesens and Iñigo de Mendoza were brothers.
The preposition "de" in a surname has generally a social meaning, related to aristocratic families, although since 19th century it has been adopted widely by burguese fanilies.
Basque surnames, OTOH, are much more useful from a genealogic perspective, they were fixed very early and you can follow a male line for many centuries, up to the 11th century sometimes.


Thanks. That was helpful.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 29, 2010, 07:04:48 AM
There is a new Portuguese R-L21 this morning: Dos Reis, Ysearch GHU77. He is in the Portugal category on the y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project. Dos Reis' most distant y-dna ancestor came from the island of Madeira.

His closest match (33/37) is Marino-Ramirez, Ysearch NR3T9, whose ancestors came from Spain and settled in Colombia. It seems a fair bet that Marino-Ramirez is also L21+.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on June 29, 2010, 08:09:59 AM
I am noticing more Portuguese results, and I don't know if it is World Cup fever or what (Portugal is a soccer powerhouse).

How many L21 folks do we have from Portugal now, Rich?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 29, 2010, 10:29:29 AM
There is a new Portuguese R-L21 this morning: Dos Reis, Ysearch GHU77. He is in the Portugal category on the y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project. Dos Reis' most distant y-dna ancestor came from the island of Madeira.

His closest match (33/37) is Marino-Ramirez, Ysearch NR3T9, whose ancestors came from Spain and settled in Colombia. It seems a fair bet that Marino-Ramirez is also L21+.
This is speculative, but I'll just throw it out there for future consideration.  These are not close GD's, but there are some common markers between Dos Reis and Rodriguez. Rodriguez lines up as a possible outlier with what Robert Hughes calls Wales Modal 2.

f118176   Jouo Dos Reis, b. Madeira, Portugal   GHU77,
f143916   Celedonio Rodriguez Rincon, b.c.1860, Puerto Rico   NR6EY,
f1059   Samuel Miles, b.1731, Pennsylvania, USA [Radnorshire / Llanfanhangel Helygen, Wales]   A628T,
f165160   George Price, b.1810; d.c.1825, Oglethorpe, Georgia, USA   SNSHM,
f155023   Rees Prees, b.1684, Radnorshire, Wales; to PA (Quaker)   AVP32,
f19706   Rees Prees/ap Rees/Rees/Price, b.c.1650, Wales    XXGJZ,
f14006   David Priest b.1698, ?Wales; d.1745, Lancaster Co., Pennsylvania, USA (Wales)   DCR6U,

LOL... Silures?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 29, 2010, 05:35:20 PM
There is a new Portuguese R-L21 this morning: Dos Reis, Ysearch GHU77. He is in the Portugal category on the y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project. Dos Reis' most distant y-dna ancestor came from the island of Madeira.

His closest match (33/37) is Marino-Ramirez, Ysearch NR3T9, whose ancestors came from Spain and settled in Colombia. It seems a fair bet that Marino-Ramirez is also L21+.
This is speculative, but I'll just throw it out there for future consideration.  These are not close GD's, but there are some common markers between Dos Reis and Rodriguez. Rodriguez lines up as a possible outlier with what Robert Hughes calls Wales Modal 2.

f118176   Jouo Dos Reis, b. Madeira, Portugal   GHU77,
f143916   Celedonio Rodriguez Rincon, b.c.1860, Puerto Rico   NR6EY,
f1059   Samuel Miles, b.1731, Pennsylvania, USA [Radnorshire / Llanfanhangel Helygen, Wales]   A628T,
f165160   George Price, b.1810; d.c.1825, Oglethorpe, Georgia, USA   SNSHM,
f155023   Rees Prees, b.1684, Radnorshire, Wales; to PA (Quaker)   AVP32,
f19706   Rees Prees/ap Rees/Rees/Price, b.c.1650, Wales    XXGJZ,
f14006   David Priest b.1698, ?Wales; d.1745, Lancaster Co., Pennsylvania, USA (Wales)   DCR6U,

LOL... Silures?


Six of these seem to have variations the same Reese/Ap Rice/Price Welsh surname including the Portuguese guy Reis and of the two who do not, one of them is Welsh anyway.  The Portuguese guy has the name and matches that would extremely strongly suggest a Welsh ancestor in surname times. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 29, 2010, 05:51:23 PM
There is a new Portuguese R-L21 this morning: Dos Reis, Ysearch GHU77. He is in the Portugal category on the y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project. Dos Reis' most distant y-dna ancestor came from the island of Madeira.

His closest match (33/37) is Marino-Ramirez, Ysearch NR3T9, whose ancestors came from Spain and settled in Colombia. It seems a fair bet that Marino-Ramirez is also L21+.
This is speculative, but I'll just throw it out there for future consideration.  These are not close GD's, but there are some common markers between Dos Reis and Rodriguez. Rodriguez lines up as a possible outlier with what Robert Hughes calls Wales Modal 2.

f118176   Jouo Dos Reis, b. Madeira, Portugal   GHU77,
f143916   Celedonio Rodriguez Rincon, b.c.1860, Puerto Rico   NR6EY,
f1059   Samuel Miles, b.1731, Pennsylvania, USA [Radnorshire / Llanfanhangel Helygen, Wales]   A628T,
f165160   George Price, b.1810; d.c.1825, Oglethorpe, Georgia, USA   SNSHM,
f155023   Rees Prees, b.1684, Radnorshire, Wales; to PA (Quaker)   AVP32,
f19706   Rees Prees/ap Rees/Rees/Price, b.c.1650, Wales    XXGJZ,
f14006   David Priest b.1698, ?Wales; d.1745, Lancaster Co., Pennsylvania, USA (Wales)   DCR6U,

LOL... Silures?


Six of these seem to have variations the same Reese/Ap Rice/Price Welsh surname including the Portuguese guy Reis and of the two who do not, one of them is Welsh anyway.  The Portuguese guy has the name and matches that would extremely strongly suggest a Welsh ancestor in surname times. 
From a rough GD perspective, Jouo Dos Reis's TMRCA with the Welsh Rhys/Rice/Price/Reese guys is older than surnames so that is probably just a coincidence.

Well, what does "Dos Reis" mean? .. two Brazilian dollars or something like that.

I think "rhys" in Welsh has to do with being passionate or ardent.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 29, 2010, 10:30:12 PM
Dos Reis means "of the kings". Reis is like Reyes in Spanish and I don't think is even pronounced like Rice/Rhys/Reece.

Are we now imagining vacationing Welshmen sowing their wild oats in Madeira? :-O

What of Dos Reis' actual closest match, Marino-Ramirez?

By the way, Marino-Ramirez has joined the R-L21 Plus Project and is now awaiting an L21 test result.

Dos Reis actually has NO close British Isles matches at 37 markers and beyond. Please also keep in mind the enormous weight of British Isles haplotypes in the database relative to everywhere else.

Rodriguez, mentioned as a "possible outlier with what Robert Hughes calls Wales Modal 2" (give me some glass to chew!), likewise has no close British Isles matches, but then Mike did say, "These are not close GD's . . ." and "This is speculative, but I'll just throw it out there for future consideration."

Given the penchant of some to make every continental L21+ the progeny of amorous British or Irish, I think we ought not to make such comparisons unless there are some real strong and obvious connections, but the "out-of-the-Isles" thing is my pet peeve, so to each his own.

Good grief!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 30, 2010, 12:12:01 AM
...
Given the penchant of some to make every continental L21+ the progeny of amorous British or Irish, I think we ought not to make such comparisons unless there are some real strong and obvious connections, but the "out-of-the-Isles" thing is my pet peeve, so to each his own.

Good grief!
I think the "Out of the Isles" thing is dead.  For those who still believe in it,  there is not much more to be said. I've discovered they have no real evidence or arguments for their view, just reasons why everything else is wrong.

In terms of making haplotype comparisons, the reason why any deep ancestral commonalities would appear, at best, faint, is the irony of your statement.  It is doubtful we'll find many "close" genealogical cluster type relationships between Iberia and the Isles among L21* folks, which is why I do look for a deep ancestral relationship.  By nature and based on STR's, any such faint relationship will be speculative.  Why should people upgrade to 67 markers unless we at least ponder the questions?  Was there any movement from Iberia to the Isles 2500 years ago? Is there anything to Míl Espáine? It'll be a long time before we have enough SNP's discovered and tested to tell.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 30, 2010, 12:45:11 AM
....
Dos Reis actually has NO close British Isles matches at 37 markers and beyond. Please also keep in mind the enormous weight of British Isles haplotypes in the database relative to everywhere else.

Rodriguez, mentioned as a "possible outlier with what Robert Hughes calls Wales Modal 2" (give me some glass to chew!), likewise has no close British Isles matches, but then Mike did say, "These are not close GD's . . ." and "This is speculative, but I'll just throw it out there for future consideration."
.....
Okay, here is the data then you can decide.  Our Iberian to be evaluated:

f118176   Jouo Dos Reis, b. Madeira, Portugal

Folks with GD of 13 and 11 over 67 AND a match on the off-modal signature of 389i=14 449=30 GataH4=10 456=15:
f141428   William McConnell, b.1779, Pennsylvania, USA; d.1867, OH
f143916   Celedonio Rodriguez Rincon, b.c.1860, Puerto Rico

I use the word "outlier" because Rodriguez matches on 4 of the 6 Wales Modal 2 signature markers but has a wide GD.  That may mean nothing, and is admittedly a bit of a stretch.

Here are the rest of the guys that are GD's of 11 to 13 over 67:

fN36716   John Bawden, b.1563, Constantine, Cornwall, England; d.1638
f115596   Thomas Johnson b.c.1742 ?Scotland; d.1828
f112904   David McConnell, b.c.1792, Western Isles, Scotland; d.c.1858
f149446   John Mountain, b.c.1800; d.aft.1840
fN41928   William Byers, b.1738, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
f33141   John Hoyt, Benjamin Irwin, c.1780, Adams Co., Pennsylvania, USA
f126046   John Adams, b.1809, Staffs, Staffordshire, England
f74779   Hans Meili, b.c.1650, Zurich, Switzerland

The above group is not really solid of any particular cluster, including Wales 2, but there are a couple of Scots Modal guys up there.  A GD of 11 to 13 is not a genealogical timeframe, but you would get a TMRCA for the group of much less than the TMRCA for R-L21*'s TMRCA.  

Keep in mind that FTDNA's matching system is only designed to look for genealogical relationships, not for deep ancestral varieties so you won't see guys like the above on their Y DNA matches screens.

For those who say we need a hundred or so more SNP's identified downstream to figure this stuff out conclusively, I agree.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 30, 2010, 02:35:07 AM
lol there is noone more anti-out of isles than me.  Its just that it seems an incredible coincidence that in terms of all the similar surnames and the Welsh connection and I wondered if the guy had a concrete paper trail to Portugal.  If  it hadnt been for the surname thing I would just have assumed that the isles were grossly overrepresented.   I actually think there is every chance of ancient links to Wales from Spain etc.  Its been suggested before regarding haplogroup E and prehistoric metalworking as well as the Roman observations on the Silures.  There is a far stronger case for it than the legendary Irish-Iberia connection.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 30, 2010, 06:54:42 AM
Well, I definitely think the Silures could have come from the Iberian Peninsula, just as Tacitus speculated they did, so some kind of distant relationship between some southern Welsh and some Portuguese and Spanish might be expected. That could be what we are seeing in this case, because the genetic distances, as Mike said in his first post on the subject, are not close.

From what I have read on the island of Madeira, it was settled by Portuguese farmers, although there was considerable trade with the Genoese and the Flemish.

Looks like a fantastic place for a vacation, by the way. The New Year's Eve fireworks display in Funchal is supposed to be the world's largest fireworks show.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 30, 2010, 07:19:59 AM
Unless two men belong to a clearly identifiable haplotype cluster, I am not sure relationships in Ysearch or elsewhere out beyond a gd of 5 or so at 67 markers have all that much significance. Sometimes they might, but often they do not. I say that because I know of men who are within 7 of each other at 67 markers and yet belong to different subclades of P312. So, pretty obviously, the relationship is very deep, going back a step down the R tree in the direction of the root.

Part of the problem is that STR mutations bounce around (meaning  they are random). The more distant the relationship, the greater the odds of accidental convergence.

In hunting for guys who might be L21+, if I find an L21+ "match" 11 away or so at 67 markers, it might be a hint that the man in question could also be L21+, but it is certainly no guarantee. We have some P312*, U152, and SRY2627 guys who are shockingly close to some of our guys. Even some U106 guys aren't that far off.

I think geography is an important factor. If you find two men who are within a certain genetic distance at 67 markers whose ancestors came from the same general neck of the woods, it seems to me the odds of a reasonable (i.e., not prehistoric) relationship are far greater than when that same genetic distance occurs between men whose ancestors were separated by a considerable distance.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 30, 2010, 07:37:06 AM
I am noticing more Portuguese results, and I don't know if it is World Cup fever or what (Portugal is a soccer powerhouse).

How many L21 folks do we have from Portugal now, Rich?

Four that I know of, but only three of them belong to the project. I'm sure further SNP testing will reveal more of them.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 05, 2010, 08:25:13 PM
Here is a list of men of Iberian descent who are currently in the "L21 Pending (Test in Progress)" category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project, in case anyone is curious.

1.  Batista  -   Ysearch 39ZK8 (has YCA=19-19 and 481=19)  

2.  Calvo  -  Ysearch GYFHF (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

3.  Calzada - No Ysearch (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

4.  Campos  -  Ysearch 28TV2 (34/37 match for an L21+ Finn)

5.  Castillo  -  No Ysearch (33/37 match for that very same L21+ Finn)

6.  Caudras - Ysearch 7FT4W

7.  Crespo - Ysearch XCHJY

8.  Davila  -  Ysearch 3SZYY (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

9.  del Regato  -  Ysearch A4BBZ (has 617=13)  

10.  Fernandez  -  Ysearch 84MAJ (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

11.  Mariño-Ramirez  -  Ysearch NR3T9 (33/37 match to an L21+ from Portugal)

12.  Mendonça  -  Ysearch GPPS3

13.  Robles  -  Ysearch G9CRT (possibly in the Spanish cluster mentioned above)

14.  Vela  -  Ysearch FQXZC


I cannot guarantee that all of them are L21+, but I think they all could be and that most of them are.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 08, 2010, 08:45:29 AM
Here is a list of men of Iberian descent who are currently in the "L21 Pending (Test in Progress)" category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project, in case anyone is curious.

1.  Batista  -   Ysearch 39ZK8 (has YCA=19-19 and 481=19)  

2.  Calvo  -  Ysearch GYFHF (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

3.  Calzada - No Ysearch (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

4.  Campos  -  Ysearch 28TV2 (34/37 match for an L21+ Finn)

5.  Castillo  -  No Ysearch (33/37 match for that very same L21+ Finn)

6.  Caudras - Ysearch 7FT4W

7.  Crespo - Ysearch XCHJY

8.  Davila  -  Ysearch 3SZYY (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

9.  del Regato  -  Ysearch A4BBZ (has 617=13)  

10.  Fernandez  -  Ysearch 84MAJ (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

11.  Mariño-Ramirez  -  Ysearch NR3T9 (33/37 match to an L21+ from Portugal)

12.  Mendonça  -  Ysearch GPPS3

13.  Robles  -  Ysearch G9CRT (possibly in the Spanish cluster mentioned above)

14.  Vela  -  Ysearch FQXZC


I cannot guarantee that all of them are L21+, but I think they all could be and that most of them are.

Calvo, kit N5681, Ysearch GYFHF, (#2 in the post above) went L21+ sometime last night.

He belongs to that Iberian L21+ cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCAII=19-19.

Calvo's most distant y-dna ancestor came from Cumbres Mayores (http://www.andalucia.com/province/huelva/cumbres-mayores/home.htm) in northern Andalucia, Spain.

I have added him to the R-L21 European Continent Map (Placemark 133).


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 08, 2010, 08:59:02 AM
Here is a list of men of Iberian descent who are currently in the "L21 Pending (Test in Progress)" category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project, in case anyone is curious.

1.  Batista  -   Ysearch 39ZK8 (has YCA=19-19 and 481=19)  

2.  Calvo  -  Ysearch GYFHF (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

3.  Calzada - No Ysearch (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

4.  Campos  -  Ysearch 28TV2 (34/37 match for an L21+ Finn)

5.  Castillo  -  No Ysearch (33/37 match for that very same L21+ Finn)

6.  Caudras - Ysearch 7FT4W

7.  Crespo - Ysearch XCHJY

8.  Davila  -  Ysearch 3SZYY (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

9.  del Regato  -  Ysearch A4BBZ (has 617=13)  

10.  Fernandez  -  Ysearch 84MAJ (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

11.  Mariño-Ramirez  -  Ysearch NR3T9 (33/37 match to an L21+ from Portugal)

12.  Mendonça  -  Ysearch GPPS3

13.  Robles  -  Ysearch G9CRT (possibly in the Spanish cluster mentioned above)

14.  Vela  -  Ysearch FQXZC


I cannot guarantee that all of them are L21+, but I think they all could be and that most of them are.

what sort of timescale until results?  I will be interested to see how the out of the isles people (if they still exist) explain L21 scattered across yet another country on the European mainland. France has loads and there seems plenty in SW Germany, Switzerland, south Holland and now some is  showing up in Iberia.  Again not just in the areas like Galicia where there was some known post-Roman British settlement.  My own feeling (based on variance etc) is that L21 entered Iberia from or at least through France at some time in the past.  Shame there is a lack of precisely located Spanish L21.  To date those who are well located seem skewed to the east of Spain near France.  With hindsight it would be odd if Spain did not at least have some L21 given it is next to France.  Reading between the lines of the Study of French yDNA  by the University of Santiago de Compostella, it is clear that the R1b1b2 that is negative for the main SNPs except S116 and L21 are the majority of R1b1b2 everywhere in France except Alsace (where U152 seems to be very high).  This means that a group primarily made up of L21 and S116* in unknown proportions dominates everywhere, including the mid Pyrenees sample (Toulouse) which borders the Basque and Catalan areas of Spain, peoples who both are a bridge between eastern Spain and western France.  So, there seems a strong likelihood that L21 is reasonably represented on the French side of the border (where a couple of stray M222s were also noted) and it would be almost odd if it did not also cross into the Spanish Basque and Catalan areas (at least-not saying that is all).  


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 08, 2010, 09:40:09 AM
It's hard to predict when the results will come in. They all take too long, as far as I am concerned. I think Calvo's were predicted for July 19th, so they came in early. The due dates (sounds like pregnancies!) for the others are scattered throughout July and early August.

I don't think one can still say that L21 on the Iberian Peninsula is stacking up in the East or Northeast. Calvo's ancestor, for example, came from Andalucia in the Southwest, as did Trujillo's, and there are a number of others whose ancestors came from the west end of the peninsula.

Of course, Iberian L21 is younger than French L21 so far, so France would be the logical source.

It is interesting that we don't have even a single L21+ result from Galicia yet, where one would expect that we would be getting them aplenty.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on July 08, 2010, 10:42:24 AM
Regardless if the L21 in Iberia is situated in the North or scattered throughout the peninsula, Celtic peoples held sway there long before the Romans.

Iberia was populated by a hybrid Celto-Iberian people. Celtiberian was the language of the privileged class there, apparently. I'm sure L21 has something to do with that.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 08, 2010, 12:09:22 PM
It's hard to predict when the results will come in. They all take too long, as far as I am concerned. I think Calvo's were predicted for July 19th, so they came in early. The due dates (sounds like pregnancies!) for the others are scattered throughout July and early August.

I don't think one can still say that L21 on the Iberian Peninsula is stacking up in the East or Northeast. Calvo's ancestor, for example, came from Andalucia in the Southwest, as did Trujillo's, and there are a number of others whose ancestors came from the west end of the peninsula.

Of course, Iberian L21 is younger than French L21 so far, so France would be the logical source.

It is interesting that we don't have even a single L21+ result from Galicia yet, where one would expect that we would be getting them aplenty.

I think that is interesting.  However, as we found in NW France, only a small amount of the distribution of L21 is explainable by sub-Roman British movements. It is strongly suggested that a similar but smaller movement took place into some areas of Galicia. 

I do not know enough about it but I wonder if the geographical patterning in Spain has not been really messed about in many areas due to the Islamic conquest followed by the reconquest.  I understood that there was a retreat towards Asturias then a slow re-expansion into the north-centre and then south.  I am not sure if that was just the aristocracy or populations in general.  However, it does strike me as providing an unusually dramatic context for considerable changes in distribution and messing up of any ancient patterns except perhaps in  a few areas. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on July 08, 2010, 08:36:41 PM
I mentioned The Spanish March in another topic.
I don't think the idea was very popular.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marca_Hispanica


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on July 09, 2010, 06:15:17 AM

I do not know enough about it but I wonder if the geographical patterning in Spain has not been really messed about in many areas due to the Islamic conquest followed by the reconquest.  I understood that there was a retreat towards Asturias then a slow re-expansion into the north-centre and then south.  I am not sure if that was just the aristocracy or populations in general.  However, it does strike me as providing an unusually dramatic context for considerable changes in distribution and messing up of any ancient patterns except perhaps in  a few areas. 
That is a hotly debated issue in Spanish historiography, some Historians think that even in the Late Medieval period the preRoman Tribes survived and can be traced in the several kingdoms, not only Christians but also muslims. Other Historians think that the Islamic influence from north Africa was very heavy in Southern Spain. In any case the evidence from written sources is not conclusive, there is for sure some repopulation, also there is some migration of other Europeans that helped recolonized Southern Spain (for instance, the first Christian lord of the town of Elda, in SE Spain, where I presently live, was a german knight (c. 1280), and 100 years later the castle was infeuded to an English knight. However all we have is anecdotal evidence, not statistically significant data.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 09, 2010, 10:03:08 AM
Here is a list of men of Iberian descent who are currently in the "L21 Pending (Test in Progress)" category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project, in case anyone is curious.

1.  Batista  -   Ysearch 39ZK8 (has YCA=19-19 and 481=19)  

2.  Calvo  -  Ysearch GYFHF (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

3.  Calzada - No Ysearch (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

4.  Campos  -  Ysearch 28TV2 (34/37 match for an L21+ Finn)

5.  Castillo  -  No Ysearch (33/37 match for that very same L21+ Finn)

6.  Caudras - Ysearch 7FT4W

7.  Crespo - Ysearch XCHJY

8.  Davila  -  Ysearch 3SZYY (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

9.  del Regato  -  Ysearch A4BBZ (has 617=13)  

10.  Fernandez  -  Ysearch 84MAJ (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

11.  Mariño-Ramirez  -  Ysearch NR3T9 (33/37 match to an L21+ from Portugal)

12.  Mendonça  -  Ysearch GPPS3

13.  Robles  -  Ysearch G9CRT (possibly in the Spanish cluster mentioned above)

14.  Vela  -  Ysearch FQXZC


I cannot guarantee that all of them are L21+, but I think they all could be and that most of them are.


Davila, #8 above, is now officially L21+.

By the way, Calvo, #2 above, who went L21+ on Wednesday evening, mentioned to me in an email that there was an old Celtic hillfort and/or village in the vicinity of his ancestor's birthplace. The place was called Nortobriga.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 10, 2010, 10:49:29 AM
Here is a list of men of Iberian descent who are currently in the "L21 Pending (Test in Progress)" category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project, in case anyone is curious.

1.  Batista  -   Ysearch 39ZK8 (has YCA=19-19 and 481=19)  

2.  Calvo  -  Ysearch GYFHF (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

3.  Calzada - No Ysearch (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

4.  Campos  -  Ysearch 28TV2 (34/37 match for an L21+ Finn)

5.  Castillo  -  No Ysearch (33/37 match for that very same L21+ Finn)

6.  Caudras - Ysearch 7FT4W

7.  Crespo - Ysearch XCHJY

8.  Davila  -  Ysearch 3SZYY (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

9.  del Regato  -  Ysearch A4BBZ (has 617=13)  

10.  Fernandez  -  Ysearch 84MAJ (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

11.  Mariño-Ramirez  -  Ysearch NR3T9 (33/37 match to an L21+ from Portugal)

12.  Mendonça  -  Ysearch GPPS3

13.  Robles  -  Ysearch G9CRT (possibly in the Spanish cluster mentioned above)

14.  Vela  -  Ysearch FQXZC


I cannot guarantee that all of them are L21+, but I think they all could be and that most of them are.


From the list above in the past couple of days, Calvo (#2) and Davila (#8) have gone L21+, but Batista (#1) got an L21- result.

Here is the revised list of those awaiting an L21 test result.

1.  Calzada - No Ysearch (in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10)

2.  Campos  -  Ysearch 28TV2 (34/37 match for an L21+ Finn)

3.  Castillo  -  No Ysearch (33/37 match for that very same L21+ Finn)

4.  Caudras - Ysearch 7FT4W

5.  Crespo - Ysearch XCHJY

6.  del Regato  -  Ysearch A4BBZ (has 617=13)  

7.  Fernandez  -  Ysearch 84MAJ (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

8.  Mariño-Ramirez  -  Ysearch NR3T9 (33/37 match to an L21+ from Portugal)

9.  Mendonça  -  Ysearch GPPS3

10.  Robles  -  Ysearch G9CRT (possibly in the Spanish cluster mentioned above)

11.  Vela  -  Ysearch FQXZC


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 22, 2010, 08:06:24 AM
Okay, here's another update.

Calzada (#1 above) went L21+, but we lost Caudras, Crespo, and Vela (#4, #5, and #11 above), unfortunately.

So, here's the revised list of those still awaiting L21 test results.

1.  Campos  -  Ysearch 28TV2 (34/37 match for an L21+ Finn)

2.  Castillo  -  No Ysearch (33/37 match for that very same L21+ Finn)

3.  del Regato  -  Ysearch A4BBZ (has 617=13)  

4.  Fernandez  -  Ysearch 84MAJ (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

5.  Mariño-Ramirez  -  Ysearch NR3T9 (33/37 match to an L21+ from Portugal)

6.  Mendonça  -  Ysearch GPPS3

7.  Robles  -  Ysearch G9CRT (possibly in the Spanish cluster mentioned above)


So, of the original list of 14 I posted a few posts back, 3 (Calvo, Calzada, and Davila) have gone L21+, and 4  (Batista, Caudras, Crespo, and Vela) have come up L21-.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 22, 2010, 11:04:20 AM
Looking at the map there still seems to be a couple of vague trends for L21 in Iberia:

1 the easten border area, especially in and around the basque

2 the area fringing Portugal but not much in the main body of Portugal itself.

No obvious explanation springs to mind. I wonder if it's possible the fringe around Portugal is indicating the edge of a largely invisible grouping in mainland Portugal in much the same way as the sw german group made me early suspect that this was just the visible edge of a  then-invisible block centred on France. What Portugal and the basque country do have in common with each other and most other strong L21 areas is a strong maritime tradition.  
  Were the L21 clans masters of the Atlantic and NW European metal trade in the bronze age? Perhaps with a particular strength in terms of maritime and major riverine transport. Certainly L21 hotspots may focus on Celtic areas but they also include other strongly maritime areas that by the historic period had non Celtic associations ie basque country and Norway.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 22, 2010, 10:09:14 PM
One of our Spanish guys, Calvo, just got the rest of his 67-marker upgrade today, and his new markers revealed something pleasant: two new, fairly close (61/67 and 60/67) 67-marker matches, both with Iberians, one Spanish, the other Portuguese. I don't think I can mention their names, since they aren't in Ysearch or in a public database that I can find. You'll have to trust me on this one.

I'm trying to get hold of them to get them tested for L21.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 23, 2010, 10:56:52 AM
One of our Spanish guys, Calvo, just got the rest of his 67-marker upgrade today, and his new markers revealed something pleasant: two new, fairly close (61/67 and 60/67) 67-marker matches, both with Iberians, one Spanish, the other Portuguese. I don't think I can mention their names, since they aren't in Ysearch or in a public database that I can find. You'll have to trust me on this one.

I'm trying to get hold of them to get them tested for L21.

any suggestion as to area of Spain?  I maybe overdo the art of trying to spot patterns but there does seem to be some non-random pattern to the distribution of well located L21 in Iberia. 




Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 23, 2010, 01:01:12 PM
One guy is definitely Portuguese (first name João), but I haven't been able to find him in Ysearch or a project yet, so I don't know if he's a mainlander or an islander. I also cannot find the Spanish guy in the usual places yet, and he has one of those composite Spanish surnames, making it difficult to know which one of them to go by.

Once they contact me, if they contact me, I will be able to find out more.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2010, 08:22:37 AM
One of Calvo's matches (the Portuguese guy) that I mentioned above has joined the project and is now awaiting L21 test results. I'm waiting to find out exactly where his MDKA came from, but I think from the Azores, since he belongs to the Azores Project.

He clearly belongs in that Spanish-Portuguese cluster with 19=15,  459=9-9, YCAII=19-19, and 456=15.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 27, 2010, 06:45:01 PM
The project map is odd if you ignore the Madrid dots.  Its sort of split into an eastern border group and a 2nd group which sort of surrounds mainland Portugal without much going into it.  Then in between there is this huge gap.  There are enough now to suggest this must at least be a real trend and is telling us something.  However, whether that is about ancient times or Iberian migration patters to the Americas I do not know.  Does anyone know what were the main areas where migration left Iberia from.  Most countries have areas which has an unusual amount of migration to the Americas:

Ireland-the south-west, west and north-west
France-the NW
Germany and adjacent-the Rhine areas
Italy-the south

At least that is what I am told (I am no expert)

So, is there a similar pattern in Spain and Portugal?




Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on July 27, 2010, 08:13:33 PM
I found this about Spain to Canada
http://www.multiculturalcanada.ca/Encyclopedia/A-Z/s12/2

The vast majority of those who crossed the Atlantic came from a small number of provinces in Spain: the Canary Islands and the Cantabrian coastal areas of Galicia, Asturias, and Santander. All had a poor and overpopulated countryside and emigration became a standard experience for people in those regions. Two other provinces, Almería and Murcia, in the southeast, also became important sources of migrants when the local mining industries collapsed. Many of these migrants were “birds of passage” or sojourners, young males, both single and married, who crossed the ocean in search of wages to supplement the income from a smallholding. Many hoped to “make America,” as the Spanish saying put it, and return home as indianos, people who had made a fortune.

Residents of Spain were among the very first Europeans to arrive in Canada. In the sixteenth century, Basque fishermen and whalers worked the waters off Newfoundland. Their activities are commemorated in place names such as Port aux Basques and Spaniards’ Bay and in the remains of graves, pottery ovens, dwellings, and even a complete galleon discovered by archaeologists. The Spanish presence on the west coast began in 1774.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2010, 07:48:14 AM
In the USA, I think most of the Portuguese immigrants came from the Azores. I don't have a source for that, but I believe it is the case.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 28, 2010, 05:36:22 PM
I found this about Spain to Canada
http://www.multiculturalcanada.ca/Encyclopedia/A-Z/s12/2

The vast majority of those who crossed the Atlantic came from a small number of provinces in Spain: the Canary Islands and the Cantabrian coastal areas of Galicia, Asturias, and Santander. All had a poor and overpopulated countryside and emigration became a standard experience for people in those regions. Two other provinces, Almería and Murcia, in the southeast, also became important sources of migrants when the local mining industries collapsed. Many of these migrants were “birds of passage” or sojourners, young males, both single and married, who crossed the ocean in search of wages to supplement the income from a smallholding. Many hoped to “make America,” as the Spanish saying put it, and return home as indianos, people who had made a fortune.

Residents of Spain were among the very first Europeans to arrive in Canada. In the sixteenth century, Basque fishermen and whalers worked the waters off Newfoundland. Their activities are commemorated in place names such as Port aux Basques and Spaniards’ Bay and in the remains of graves, pottery ovens, dwellings, and even a complete galleon discovered by archaeologists. The Spanish presence on the west coast began in 1774.


That is interesting.  Sort of suggests that Portugal is largely untested.  The way Portugal is sort of ringed by L21 but not much in it gives me a sneaking suspicion that migration patterns may be hiding mainland Portuguese L21.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on July 28, 2010, 08:32:47 PM
In the USA, I think most of the Portuguese immigrants came from the Azores. I don't have a source for that, but I believe it is the case.

There are a lot of people of Portuguese descent in my area. It has been my understanding that most came from the Azores as whalers or fishermen. I don't know how universal that situation may be in other parts of the country.

Is there any reason to suspect that Portuguese from the Azores are different from those of the mainland?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2010, 09:20:33 PM
In the USA, I think most of the Portuguese immigrants came from the Azores. I don't have a source for that, but I believe it is the case.

There are a lot of people of Portuguese descent in my area. It has been my understanding that most came from the Azores as whalers or fishermen. I don't know how universal that situation may be in other parts of the country.

Is there any reason to suspect that Portuguese from the Azores are different from those of the mainland?

Apparently, there was some input from places other than Portugal in the Azores, but thus far our two Azorean R-L21 guys only match other Portuguese and Spanish.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2010, 09:23:23 PM
Okay, here's another update.

Calzada (#1 above) went L21+, but we lost Caudras, Crespo, and Vela (#4, #5, and #11 above), unfortunately.

So, here's the revised list of those still awaiting L21 test results.

1.  Campos  -  Ysearch 28TV2 (34/37 match for an L21+ Finn)

2.  Castillo  -  No Ysearch (33/37 match for that very same L21+ Finn)

3.  del Regato  -  Ysearch A4BBZ (has 617=13) 

4.  Fernandez  -  Ysearch 84MAJ (in that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19)

5.  Mariño-Ramirez  -  Ysearch NR3T9 (33/37 match to an L21+ from Portugal)

6.  Mendonça  -  Ysearch GPPS3

7.  Robles  -  Ysearch G9CRT (possibly in the Spanish cluster mentioned above)


So, of the original list of 14 I posted a few posts back, 3 (Calvo, Calzada, and Davila) have gone L21+, and 4  (Batista, Caudras, Crespo, and Vela) have come up L21-.


Fernandez, #4 above, got his L21+ result this evening. I don't think there was much doubt that he would be L21+, since he belongs to a solidly L21+ Spanish-Portuguese cluster.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2010, 10:13:22 PM
. . .

Fernandez, #4 above, got his L21+ result this evening. I don't think there was much doubt that he would be L21+, since he belongs to a solidly L21+ Spanish-Portuguese cluster.

So, here's the revised list of those still awaiting L21 test results.

1.  Campos  -  Ysearch 28TV2 (34/37 match for an L21+ Finn)

2.  Castillo  -  No Ysearch (33/37 match for that very same L21+ Finn)

3.  del Regato  -  Ysearch A4BBZ (has 617=13)  

4.  Mariño-Ramirez  -  Ysearch NR3T9 (33/37 match to an L21+ from Portugal)

5.  Mendonça  -  Ysearch GPPS3

6.  Robles  -  Ysearch G9CRT (possibly in the Spanish 459=10-10 cluster)

7.  Ventura - No Ysearch yet (belongs to that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCAII=19-19)


#7 is our new Portuguese guy, Calvo's close match.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 31, 2010, 11:58:59 AM
I thought I should mention that Archuleta (Ysearch BXPKT) got his L21+ result yesterday evening. I already had him in the Spain category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project due to his membership in that Spanish cluster with 459=10-10 (and his match with Romero, who had already tested L21+).

Archuleta is a Basque surname, and our Archuleta's ancestor came from Eibar in Guipuzcoa in the Basque country.

Now we have three L21+ guys with Basque surnames and ancestry in the Basque country: Archuleta, Arrizabalaga, and Olazabal.

Now I am wondering what sort of frequency L21 has among the Basques.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 31, 2010, 02:07:16 PM
Hopefully the academic obsession with the Basques when it comes to DNA will result in a study (preferably covering both those in both France and Spain) of the Basques using the full group of SNPs.  It certainly sounds a fairly modest goal.  

My feeling is there is an L21 minority among the Basques but it is probably heavily outnumbered.    How many of these L21 Basques belong to the cluster you identified?  In fact how many of all L21 Iberians are in and not in the cluster?  Is their any difference in distribution between those in an not in the cluster?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 31, 2010, 04:05:22 PM
Hopefully the academic obsession with the Basques when it comes to DNA will result in a study (preferably covering both those in both France and Spain) of the Basques using the full group of SNPs.  It certainly sounds a fairly modest goal.  

My feeling is there is an L21 minority among the Basques but it is probably heavily outnumbered.    How many of these L21 Basques belong to the cluster you identified?  In fact how many of all L21 Iberians are in and not in the cluster?  Is their any difference in distribution between those in an not in the cluster?

We have 26 project members with Spanish or Portuguese surnames, and I know of three other men, two Spaniards and one Portuguese, who are L21+ but haven't joined the project, for a grand total of 29. Of those, six are in "Sampedro's Cluster", my name for the cluster Archuleta is in, because it was in searching through Sampedro's matches that I discovered it. There are several more members of that easily recognized cluster out there, but I haven't been able to recruit them.

Archuleta is the only Basque in Sampedro's Cluster. Arrizabalaga only has 12 markers and cannot currently be placed in any cluster. Olazabal is short on matches of any kind. He does not belong to Sampedro's Cluster.

Of the other members of Sampedro's Cluster who can trace their ancestry to Spain, one cannot identify any place more specific than "Spain"; another has an ancestor who was born in Bilbao, but who had a non-Basque surname; and the last of them has an ancestor who came from Cantabria. Two members of the cluster cannot get their y lines out of Mexico. So, of those for whom we can place pins in specific towns on the map of Spain, all three are from the Northeast, in or near the Basque country.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 31, 2010, 05:37:30 PM
I probably should also mention that second Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCAII=19-19.

So far there are four of L21+ our members in it and a fifth awaiting L21 test results. One of the first four cannot get his paper trail out of Mexico. Of the remaining three, two have Portuguese ancestry from the Azores, and one has ancestry from SW Spain, not too far from the Portuguese border. The fifth member of the cluster is of Portuguese ancestry, probably also from the Azores, but I'm not sure of that yet.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 03, 2010, 08:45:38 AM
Gomez, kit N16025, just got his L21+ result. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Galicia. Gomez is not in one of the two clusters mentioned elsewhere in this thread. He has a 36/37 match with another Spaniard.

I am in Wilmington, North Carolina, this week, and this hotel computer is really slow, so I probably won't be posting much.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 03, 2010, 02:36:22 PM
I probably should also mention that second Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCAII=19-19.

So far there are four of L21+ our members in it and a fifth awaiting L21 test results. One of the first four cannot get his paper trail out of Mexico. Of the remaining three, two have Portuguese ancestry from the Azores, and one has ancestry from SW Spain, not too far from the Portuguese border. The fifth member of the cluster is of Portuguese ancestry, probably also from the Azores, but I'm not sure of that yet.

hmm.. very tempting to see that as a western Iberian cluster.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 03, 2010, 02:43:54 PM
Hopefully the academic obsession with the Basques when it comes to DNA will result in a study (preferably covering both those in both France and Spain) of the Basques using the full group of SNPs.  It certainly sounds a fairly modest goal.  

My feeling is there is an L21 minority among the Basques but it is probably heavily outnumbered.    How many of these L21 Basques belong to the cluster you identified?  In fact how many of all L21 Iberians are in and not in the cluster?  Is their any difference in distribution between those in an not in the cluster?

We have 26 project members with Spanish or Portuguese surnames, and I know of three other men, two Spaniards and one Portuguese, who are L21+ but haven't joined the project, for a grand total of 29. Of those, six are in "Sampedro's Cluster", my name for the cluster Archuleta is in, because it was in searching through Sampedro's matches that I discovered it. There are several more members of that easily recognized cluster out there, but I haven't been able to recruit them.

Archuleta is the only Basque in Sampedro's Cluster. Arrizabalaga only has 12 markers and cannot currently be placed in any cluster. Olazabal is short on matches of any kind. He does not belong to Sampedro's Cluster.

Of the other members of Sampedro's Cluster who can trace their ancestry to Spain, one cannot identify any place more specific than "Spain"; another has an ancestor who was born in Bilbao, but who had a non-Basque surname; and the last of them has an ancestor who came from Cantabria. Two members of the cluster cannot get their y lines out of Mexico. So, of those for whom we can place pins in specific towns on the map of Spain, all three are from the Northeast, in or near the Basque country.

Hmm..very tempting to see that as a north/east Iberian cluster. 

It is interesting that the guys in the two clusters who can be plotted seem to fall into two widely separated areas.  That strange distribution is also true when all Iberian L21 that can be plotted is looked at.  Very interesting and seems more than a coincidence.  Question is does this relate to historic reality or migration patterns to the Americas in modern times.   


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 03, 2010, 04:10:00 PM
Gomez, kit N16025, just got his L21+ result. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Galicia. Gomez is not in one of the two clusters mentioned elsewhere in this thread. He has a 36/37 match with another Spaniard.

I am in Wilmington, North Carolina, this week, and this hotel computer is really slow, so I probably won't be posting much.

That Spanish 36/37 match is Saenz, Ysearch EWDMF.

I don't yet know where in Galicia Gomez' ancestor came from. All I know for now is Galicia.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: argiedude on August 04, 2010, 05:58:10 PM
Huge thanks to everyone for all this research, especially of course Steve. I'm also seeing an east-west difference. I like that in particular because over these last couple of years I have noted repeatedly that the y-dna of Iberia has more of an east-west cline, rather than north-south. This stuff on Iberian L21 is also very timely for a new thread I'm starting about Latin Americans' y-dna and where in Spain their ancestors came from.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 04, 2010, 09:33:30 PM
This is the conclusion also of this paper, unfortunately not for free, I cited in another thread:

O García, R Fregel, J M Larruga, V Álvarez, I Yurrebaso, V M Cabrera and A M González

Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge
"It has been proposed that the distribution patterns and coalescence ages found in Europeans for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups V, H1 and H3 are the result of a post-glacial expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge that recolonized central and northern areas. In contrast, in this refined mtDNA study of the Cantabrian Cornice that contributes 413 partial and 9 complete new mtDNA sequences, including a large Basque sample and a sample of Asturians, no experimental evidence was found to support the human refuge-expansion theory. In fact, all measures of gene diversity point to the Cantabrian Cornice in general and the Basques in particular, as less polymorphic for V, H1 and H3 than other southern regions in Iberia or in Central Europe. Genetic distances show the Cantabrian Cornice is a very heterogeneous region with significant local differences. The analysis of several minor subhaplogroups, based on complete sequences, also suggests different focal expansions over a local and peninsular range that did not affect continental Europe. Furthermore, all detected clinal trends show stronger longitudinal than latitudinal profiles. In Northern Iberia, it seems that the highest diversity values for some haplogroups with Mesolithic coalescence ages are centred on the Mediterranean side, including Catalonia and South-eastern France".

As regards mtDNA HV4a (and perhaps not only), as I think having demonstrated in anorther thread, probably the origin isn't in East Spain, South France (the Latin "Provincia", the part of France most romanized and linked to Italy ab antiquo: see the "Ligures") rather more to East: in Italy.




Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 06, 2010, 10:50:46 AM
Huge thanks to everyone for all this research, especially of course Steve. I'm also seeing an east-west difference. I like that in particular because over these last couple of years I have noted repeatedly that the y-dna of Iberia has more of an east-west cline, rather than north-south. This stuff on Iberian L21 is also very timely for a new thread I'm starting about Latin Americans' y-dna and where in Spain their ancestors came from.

Thanks, argiedude. I am excited that L21 seems to be popping up fairly frequently - well, certainly more than we expected - in Iberia. I don't think we have even scratched the surface yet though.

Of course, I don't expect R-L21 to be the biggest clade in Iberia. That honor goes to R-SRY2627, I think. But I think we have already surpassed U152 and its subclades and U106 and its subclades.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 13, 2010, 08:25:46 PM
Mariño-Ramirez, Ysearch NR3T9, got his L21+ result this evening.

He doesn't belong to either of the Iberian clusters thus far identified, but he is a 33/37 neighbor to our Portuguese Madeiran, Dos Reis.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 18, 2010, 09:50:12 PM
Ventura, kit 157713 , got his L21+ result this evening.

He is Portuguese, but I don't know the exact birthplace of his ancestor yet.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 30, 2010, 08:06:56 PM
Robles, Ysearch G9CRT, just got his L21+ result. He is not in one of the Iberian haplotype clusters but kind of skirts the one with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10 (but he has 12-15 and 9-10, respectively).


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 31, 2010, 05:53:20 PM
There's a new Spanish surname R-L21 this evening; Chavez, Ysearch 44S95.

His only close match at 37 markers is also Spanish.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 12, 2010, 06:57:35 AM
Two new Spanish R-L21s to report: kits 149534 and 149541 (no Ysearch IDs yet). They descend from the same ancestor, surname Kimhi, from Sevilla (Seville) in Andalusia.

They are WAMHers, not part of any cluster, and were not recruited by me. (I'm glad they showed up, though.)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 12, 2010, 07:47:16 AM
Which surname is Kimhi? It doesn't seem Spanish at all.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 12, 2010, 07:52:13 AM
KIMHI, or Quay', the family name of three Jewish grammarians and biblical scholars who worked at Narbonne in the r 2th century and the beginning of the 13th, and exercised great influence on the study of the Hebrew language. The name, as is shown by manuscript testimony, was also pronounced Kamhi and further mention is made of the French surname Petit.

Joseph I K IMIiI was a native of southern Spain, and settled in Provence, where he was one of the first to set forth in the Hebrew language the results of Hebraic philology as expounded by the Spanish Jews in their Arabic treatises. He was acquainted moreover with Latin grammar, under the influence of which he resorted to the innovation of dividing the Hebrew vowels into five long vowels and five short, previous grammarians having simply spoken of seven vowels without distinction of quantity. His grammatical textbook, Sefer Ha-Zikkaron, "Book of Remembrance" (ed. W. Bacher, Berlin, 1888), was marked by methodical comprehensiveness, and introduced into the theory of the verbs a new classification of the stems which has been retained by later scholars. In the far more ample Sefer HaGaluy, "Book of Demonstration" (ed. Matthews, Berlin, 1887), Joseph Kimhi attacks the philological work of the greatest French Talmud scholar of that day, R. Jacob Tam, who espoused the antiquated system of Menahem b.Saruq, and this he supplements by an independent critique of Menahem. This work is a mine of varied exegetical and philological details. He also wrote commentaries - the majority of which are lost - on a great number of the scriptural books. Those on Proverbs and Job have been published. He composed an apologetic work under the title Sefer Ha-Berith ("Book of the Bond"), a fragment of which is extant, and translated into Hebrew the ethico-philosophical work of Balhya ibn Paquda ("Duties of the Heart"). In his commentaries he also made contributions to the comparative philology of Hebrew and Arabic.

Moses Kimhi was the author of a Hebrew grammar, known - after the first three words - as Mahalak Shebile Ha-daat, or briefly as Mahalak. It is an elementary introduction to the study of Hebrew, the first of its kind, in which only the most indispensable definitions and rules have a place, the remainder being almost wholly occupied by paradigms. Moses Kimhi was the first who made the verb paqadh a model for conjugation, and the first also who introduced the now usual sequence in the enumeration of stem-forms. His handbook was of great historical importance as in the first half of the 6th century it became the favourite manual for the study of Hebrew among non-Judaic scholars (1st ed., Pesaro, 1508). Elias Levita wrote Hebrew explanations, and Sebastian Munster translated it into Latin. Moses Kimhi also composed commentaries to the biblical books; those on Proverbs, Ezra and Nehemiah are in the great rabbinical bibles falsely ascribed to Abraham ibn Ezra.

David Kimhi (c. r r60-1235), also known as Redaq (=R. David Kimhi), eclipsed the fame both of his father and his brother. From the writings of the former he quotes a great number of explanations, some of which are known only from this source. His magnum opus is the Sefer Miklol, "Book of Completeness." This falls into two divisions: the grammar, to which the title of the whole, Miklol, is usually applied (first printed in Constantinople, 1532-1534, then, with the notes of Elias Levita, at Venice, 1545), and the lexicon, Sefer Hashorashim, "Book of Roots," which was first printed in Italy before 1480, then at Naples in 1490, and at Venice in 1546 with the annotations of Elias. The model and the principal source for this work of David Kimhi's was the book of R. Jonah (Abulwalid), which was cast in a similar bipartite form; and it was chiefly due to I imhi's grammar and lexicon that, while the contents of Abulwalid's works were common knowledge, they themselves remained in oblivion for centuries. In spite of this dependence on his predecessors his work shows originality, especially in the arrangement of his material. In the grammar he combined the paradigmatic method of his brother Moses with the procedure of the older scholars who devoted a close attention to details. In his dictionary, again, he recast the lexicological materials independently, and enriched lexicography itself, especially by his numerous etymological explanations. Under the title Et Sofer, " Pen of the Writer" (Lyk, 1864), David Kimhi composed a sort of grammatical compendium as a guide to the correct punctuation of the biblical manuscripts; it consists, for the most part, of extracts from the Miklol. After the completion of his great work he began to write commentaries on portions of the Scriptures. The first was on Chronicles, then followed one on the Psalms, and finally his exegetical masterpiece - the commentary on the prophets. His annotations on the Psalms are especially interesting for the polemical excursuses directed against the Christian interpretation. He was also responsible for a commentary on Genesis (ed. A. Giinsburg, Pressburg, 1842), in which he followed Moses Maimonides in explaining biblical narratives as visions. He was an enthusiastic adherent of Maimonides, and, though far advanced in years, took an active part in the battle which raged in southern France and Spain round his philosophicoreligious writings. The popularity of his biblical exegesis is demonstrated by the fact that the first printed texts of the Hebrew Bible were accompanied by his commentary: the Psalms 1477, perhaps at Bologna; the early Prophets, 1485, Soncino; the later Prophets, ibid. 1486.

His commentaries have been frequently reprinted, many of them in Latin translations. A new edition of that on the Psalms was begun by Schiller-Szinessy (First Book of Psalms, Cambridge, 1883). Abr. Geiger wrote of the three Kimhis in the Hebrew periodical Ozar Nehmad (vol. ii., 1857 =A. Geiger, Gesammelte Schriften, v. 1-47). See further the Jewish Encyclopedia. (WV. BA.)




Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: realdealt on September 12, 2010, 09:02:29 AM
From my reference books the surname KIMHI is a variant.

Qamhi, arabic "wheat", Variations Camhy, Camhi, Camy, Quimhi, Kimhi (sephardic from Moroccans, France, Italy, Turkey, England).


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 12, 2010, 10:42:13 AM
But the question is always the same: where they took from their haplogroup? R-L21 seems a Western European one if neither Italy has it and in Spain it is probably due to the invasions after the Roman Empire fell.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on September 12, 2010, 10:49:07 AM
Ventura, kit 157713 , got his L21+ result this evening.

He is Portuguese, but I don't know the exact birthplace of his ancestor yet.

I have looked up the surname Ventura and it seems to be Italian. Is this surname  Portuguese also?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: realdealt on September 12, 2010, 10:58:25 AM
From my data of Iberian L21 with known specific locations in Spain I produced this map.

http://tinyurl.com/2aunryh (http://tinyurl.com/2aunryh)

If L21 in Iberia is "spill-over" from France then is this distribution reflective only of recent population movements? The hotspots seem to be around the Basque Country and Andalucía.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 12, 2010, 11:37:28 AM
Ventura, kit 157713 , got his L21+ result this evening.

He is Portuguese, but I don't know the exact birthplace of his ancestor yet.

I have looked up the surname Ventura and it seems to be Italian. Is this surname  Portuguese also?

Ventura is an Italian surname but used also by Jews. One Ventura tested R1b1b2* from Turkey I demonstrated he was of Italian extraction by a letter from a relative of his. Any case should be investigated by itself. I am searching now about a Pole named Pradella, which is an Italian surname, but probably taken also by Jews from Italy. But the football player Vilimowski, born Pradella, didn't seem to be a Jew if played in Germany during the Nazi regime. For this I have always supported to investigate the paper trail of a person tested: we risk to attribute to Poles what is Italian or Jewish etc.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 12, 2010, 03:57:11 PM
Regarding Kimhi (and variations), I have received subsequent emails, and two more descendants of that same ancestor have joined the project.

They apparently all come from a famous rabbinical family and descend from one of the most famous rabbis of all time, David Kimhi (also known as RaDak):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radak)

This is cool, in my opinion.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 13, 2010, 10:28:27 AM
Dear Rich, you who are a connoisseur of  R-L21+, do you want to know the origin of these Spanish clades like that of the Qimhis and others? These are the clade-mother and the clades-daughters:

1)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,12,13,13,29
2)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,11,13,13,29
3)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,11,13,14,29
4)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,11,11,13,14,29

The fact that DYS439, a pretty fast mutating marker, has remained unchanged makes us hypothesize that everything has happened in restricted times.
If those clades presuppose an unique family line or are picked up here and there it is difficult to say and only a large scale research could answer, but its diffusion overall in the R-L21 world makes us think to independent stocks which, of course, have a far unique origin.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 11, 2010, 06:14:46 PM
There's a new R-L21 in the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project: Saldaña , kit 58625, Ysearch 6FDJY.

I have sent him a message asking him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on October 14, 2010, 10:15:44 AM
There's a new R-L21 in the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project: Saldaña , kit 58625, Ysearch 6FDJY.

I have sent him a message asking him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
The origin of the surname is in the town of the same name in Spain. Today it is a very small town but in the early middle ages it was the capital of the count of Saldaña, and many vassals took the surname from it.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on October 15, 2010, 03:31:39 PM
If he's L21+ then he must be a Count. ;)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 16, 2010, 03:47:57 AM
There's a new R-L21 in the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project: Saldaña , kit 58625, Ysearch 6FDJY.

I have sent him a message asking him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
The origin of the surname is in the town of the same name in Spain. Today it is a very small town but in the early middle ages it was the capital of the count of Saldaña, and many vassals took the surname from it.

Although its in Castille-Leon, its in the extreme north close to the Cantabria area in the north-east  of Spain where we know there is L21 both from the project maps and Myres.   It does seem to me still that in Iberia L21 rises in the NE and towards the west but is lacking elsewhere and although the numbers are lower than expected, this is borne out by Myres et al.  The latter picked up this in Santander but did not apparently test the Basque area where it would seem the Iberian peak is. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 26, 2010, 07:54:23 PM
Found a brand new Spanish R-L21 in Ysearch: Carrasco, Ysearch 7WB3C.

The entry just lists Spain for a location and nothing more detailed. I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on October 27, 2010, 05:14:10 PM
Found a brand new Spanish R-L21 in Ysearch: Carrasco, Ysearch 7WB3C.

The entry just lists Spain for a location and nothing more detailed. I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.
That is a very common surname. There is at least 4 diferent Carrasco origins.

1) From the mountains of northern Burgos, close to the Basque Country

2) From the mountains of the Iberian System, in the east, close to the Mediterranean coast

3) A surname adopted by Jewish converse

4) The name of royal messengers in Castile in medieval times.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: jerome72 on October 29, 2010, 11:50:36 AM
Found a brand new Spanish R-L21 in Ysearch: Carrasco, Ysearch 7WB3C.

The entry just lists Spain for a location and nothing more detailed. I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Well! I think that, at first, we underestimated the importance of haplogroup L21 in Spain. Me anyway!
This gives the impression that L21 is in a large north-west Spain, at least as predominant as on the western coasts of France and even England.

Who have hypothesis?

An unique people along the coasts or the final outcome of a race from the east and L21 which would be the first to have reached the shores of the ocean?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on November 27, 2010, 03:47:42 PM
A new Spanish R-L21 joined the R-L21 Plus Project today: ancestral surname Sanchez, from Andalusia, kit 171804, Ysearch XVJS5.

Sanchez from Andalusia is all I know right now. I am trying to get further information.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on November 27, 2010, 07:26:25 PM
A new Spanish R-L21 joined the R-L21 Plus Project today: ancestral surname Sanchez, from Andalusia, kit 171804, Ysearch XVJS5.

Sanchez from Andalusia is all I know right now. I am trying to get further information.

Got that info: Francisco SÁNCHEZ, Córdoba 1798.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 29, 2010, 12:49:59 PM
A new Spanish R-L21 joined the R-L21 Plus Project today: ancestral surname Sanchez, from Andalusia, kit 171804, Ysearch XVJS5.
Sanchez from Andalusia is all I know right now. I am trying to get further information.
Got that info: Francisco SÁNCHEZ, Córdoba 1798.
Am I seeing this correctly? If you look at his haplotype with normal step-wise STR mutations, Sánchez is way off the R-L21 charts. His GD's are 32 to 47 over 67 with the rest of R-L21*.  The implication could be that R-L21 is older than we think and this provides more credence for a N.Africa route to Iberia and a tie to Bell Beakers out of Portugal.

The driver for the high GD's for Sánchez is 413=14,14 where as L21 modal is 23,23 (so you have a GD of 18 just at 413), .

The explanation may be very simply a recLOH event so we should subtract 17 from those very high GD's.  I see DYS413 is on a palinrome region called P8.
http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/static/PalindromicRegion-V2.pdf

If we count Sánchez' 413=14,14 as a GD of 1 from 413=23,23 then his GD's from everyone else drop to the range of 15 to 30 over 67.  That still puts him on the edge of L21's GD ranges but at least doesn't change the age of L21

Is there any way to verify this is a recLOH?



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jdean on November 29, 2010, 04:49:02 PM

The driver for the high GD's for Sánchez is 413=14,14 where as L21 modal is 23,23 (so you have a GD of 18 just at 413), .

The explanation may be very simply a recLOH event so we should subtract 17 from those very high GD's.  I see DYS413 is on a palinrome region called P8.
http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/static/PalindromicRegion-V2.pdf


Is there any way to verify this is a recLOH?



There are two L144 people in the whalen project with 16-16

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/whalen/default.aspx?section=yresults

The rest of the group is 16-23, so that does suggest a recLOH in those cases



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2011, 01:15:52 PM
We have a new Basque R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Amuchastegui, kit N93033, whose ancestor came from Markina-Xemein, Spain.

No Ysearch entry yet.

He's in that Spanish cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2011, 09:24:33 PM
We have a new Basque R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Amuchastegui, kit N93033, whose ancestor came from Markina-Xemein, Spain.

No Ysearch entry yet.

He's in that Spanish cluster with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10.

He's got a Ysearch entry now: 5ZZXA.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 04, 2011, 05:09:39 PM
Markina is less than 10 miles from my home town


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 04, 2011, 08:00:28 PM
Markina is less than 10 miles from my home town

Cool.

I wonder if we could recruit some more Basques for L21 testing.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 20, 2011, 09:45:19 AM
We have another new Spanish R-L21 this morning: Guillén, kit N94538. He is a Spanish citizen.

Unfortunately, thus far, Guillén has no Ysearch entry, only 12 markers, and did not list the birthplace of his most distant y-dna ancestor, although he did identify the country as Spain.

Anyway, I am very happy to get another new Spanish member.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 21, 2011, 06:07:13 AM
Guillen is a patronymic, so it hasn´t got a definite territorial origin


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 21, 2011, 01:08:07 PM
I guess it's okay to say this gentleman is from Zaragoza, but he hasn't yet indicated where his ancestor came from.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 21, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
You know, I forgot about the complexity of Spanish surnames and thus neglected to report that Guillén's surname is more accurately Berdejo Guillén.

Doesn't that mean the y-dna line is really Berdejo?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on April 25, 2011, 03:42:53 PM
That is correct, the Y-DNA line should be Berdejo.
The surname comes from a small town called Berdejo, in the province of Zaragoza. The name itself comes from the green colour (Berde/Verde=Green) of the local stone.
The town itself is very small, presently c.60 people living there. However between 12th and 14th century the castle of Berdejo was of some strategic importance, protecting the border of the kingdom of Aragon againts the kingdom of Castille, and it was probably then that the surname was born.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Paco Berdejo on May 04, 2011, 05:20:15 AM
That is correct, the Y-DNA line should be Berdejo.
The surname comes from a small town called Berdejo, in the province of Zaragoza. The name itself comes from the green colour (Berde/Verde=Green) of the local stone.
The town itself is very small, presently c.60 people living there. However between 12th and 14th century the castle of Berdejo was of some strategic importance, protecting the border of the kingdom of Aragon againts the kingdom of Castille, and it was probably then that the surname was born.
Hello friends,I am Francisco Berdejo,as I have mentioned I reply,actually I R-L21+ butstill my test is in progress,I think will be M37,I´m Aragones and Spanish probably from a few millennia ago,my ancestors I can tell you always have been in Spain so it is there where you ought to place them,you can check on this if you wish but this research still I have to do it thoroughly,now I want to ask something I need to know more about my origins and you can help me, I appreciate that I tell us what you please,sorry for my bad English,greetings to all.....


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Paco Berdejo on May 04, 2011, 05:34:54 AM
Hola otra vez,me gustaría poder mantener contacto informativo con Españoles que sean R-L21,Para intercambiar opiniones e investigar nuestro común origen,si alguien esta interesado le agradecería que me lo hiciera saber para ponernos en contacto de alguna manera,un saludo.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on May 05, 2011, 08:56:06 AM
Hola otra vez,me gustaría poder mantener contacto informativo con Españoles que sean R-L21,Para intercambiar opiniones e investigar nuestro común origen,si alguien esta interesado le agradecería que me lo hiciera saber para ponernos en contacto de alguna manera,un saludo.
Hola Paco
Mi email es aryaman13atHotmail.com si quieres establecer contacto
Saludos


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Paco Berdejo on May 06, 2011, 05:00:13 AM
Hola otra vez,me gustaría poder mantener contacto informativo con Españoles que sean R-L21,Para intercambiar opiniones e investigar nuestro común origen,si alguien esta interesado le agradecería que me lo hiciera saber para ponernos en contacto de alguna manera,un saludo.
Hola Paco
Mi email es aryaman13atHotmail.com si quieres establecer contacto
Saludos
Hola IALEM,gracias por responder,revisa la dirección de correo que pusiste,he intentado contactar contigo y creo que no funciona.....un saludo.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on May 07, 2011, 09:26:53 AM
has reemplazado at por @? no puse la dirección exacta por precaución


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 22, 2011, 06:25:55 AM
We added another L21+ member with a Spanish surname yesterday: Barraza, kit 197385. No Ysearch ID yet. As far as I can tell, he isn't able to trace his ancestry across the Pond yet.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on May 22, 2011, 10:24:58 AM
Is his ancestry in Northern Mexico? Barraza is a rather unusual surname, but it is relatively common in Durango.
For what i have searched, the origin of the surname in Spain is rather obscure, but it can be a variant of Barazar/Barrasa, all from the Basque word Baratze (orchard). Basque origin is made more probable if the subject is indeed from Durango, since that region was originally settled by Basque inmigrants early in the XVII century, and the region is full of Basque surnames among the old families.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 22, 2011, 05:33:42 PM
Is his ancestry in Northern Mexico? Barraza is a rather unusual surname, but it is relatively common in Durango.
For what i have searched, the origin of the surname in Spain is rather obscure, but it can be a variant of Barazar/Barrasa, all from the Basque word Baratze (orchard). Basque origin is made more probable if the subject is indeed from Durango, since that region was originally settled by Basque inmigrants early in the XVII century, and the region is full of Basque surnames among the old families.

This Barraza traces his most distant y ancestor to Louisiana, USA.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 23, 2011, 05:58:02 PM
Is his ancestry in Northern Mexico? Barraza is a rather unusual surname, but it is relatively common in Durango.
For what i have searched, the origin of the surname in Spain is rather obscure, but it can be a variant of Barazar/Barrasa, all from the Basque word Baratze (orchard). Basque origin is made more probable if the subject is indeed from Durango, since that region was originally settled by Basque inmigrants early in the XVII century, and the region is full of Basque surnames among the old families.

L21 really does seem to be have its best representation in and around the Basque area and in general the areas of Spain near to France.  I see that as a geographical thing more than anything else.  The project map and also Myres et al seem to imply that western France has a reasonable showing of L21. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: realdealt on May 24, 2011, 12:07:40 PM
The surname Barraza is most probably a variant of Barrasa as the letter "z" is often substituted in Mexico for the "s". This name originated in the municipality of Valley of Mena (Valle de Mena) which is in the province of Burgos that borders the Basque province of Vizcaya.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on May 24, 2011, 05:38:23 PM
Valle de Mena is indeed in the very border with Vizcaya. Did you find any notice when the surname is first attested there?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: realdealt on May 24, 2011, 08:17:13 PM
Valle de Mena is indeed in the very border with Vizcaya. Did you find any notice when the surname is first attested there?

Unfortunately that is all the information provided. My source is the book "Diccionario etimológico comparado de los apellidos españoles, hispanoamericanos y filipinos" by Gutierre Tibón.

Another source I have shows a Fernando de Barrasa, "montañés", from the province of Santander, went to the Indies in 1516.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 27, 2011, 08:14:42 PM
Today realdealt spotted another new R-L21 with a Spanish surname. He's in the Iberian Ashkenaz project: Andrada, kit 182680. I can't find him in Ysearch, but I emailed the admin of that project to try to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

The entry just lists "Spain" as the ancestral place of origin, with no further details.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 29, 2011, 07:52:57 AM
Today realdealt spotted another new R-L21 with a Spanish surname. He's in the Iberian Ashkenaz project: Andrada, kit 182680. I can't find him in Ysearch, but I emailed the admin of that project to try to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

The entry just lists "Spain" as the ancestral place of origin, with no further details.

Andrada has joined the project. He traces his most distant y-dna ancestor to Mexico, so he's in the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 12, 2011, 07:41:47 PM
I just found a new R-L21 in the Galicia Project: Rodriguez, kit 89912, Ysearch 67U3T.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults)

His y ancestor came from Puebla de Trives in Galicia.

I'm trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 15, 2011, 07:59:12 PM
I just found a new R-L21 in the Galicia Project: Rodriguez, kit 89912, Ysearch 67U3T.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults)

His y ancestor came from Puebla de Trives in Galicia.

I'm trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Rodriguez joined the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 23, 2011, 07:12:52 PM
Found a new Portuguese R-L21 this evening: Correia Neves, kit 172173, Ysearch 8E2YH.

I found him in the R1b1a2 Iberian Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b2Iberico/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b2Iberico/default.aspx?section=yresults)

It seems to me R-L21 is fairly common in the Iberian Peninsula.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 24, 2011, 08:40:20 AM
Do you think R-L21 could have actually originated there?  From what I can see, the Pyrenees / Basque clusters of R-P312 are fairly young so the whole Basque/Cantabrian thing may bit of a red herring.

However, that doesn't mean R-P312 doesn't come from Iberia.  There are some unusual haplotypes.  Perhaps an in-depth study of R-P312 in Portugal would be important.

On the other hand, I don't get high variance in Iberia, generally.

Found a new Portuguese R-L21 this evening: Correia Neves, kit 172173, Ysearch 8E2YH.

I found him in the R1b1a2 Iberian Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b2Iberico/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b2Iberico/default.aspx?section=yresults)

It seems to me R-L21 is fairly common in the Iberian Peninsula.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 24, 2011, 11:30:44 AM
Do you think R-L21 could have actually originated there?  From what I can see, the Pyrenees / Basque clusters of R-P312 are fairly young so the whole Basque/Cantabrian thing may bit of a red herring.

However, that doesn't mean R-P312 doesn't come from Iberia.  There are some unusual haplotypes.  Perhaps an in-depth study of R-P312 in Portugal would be important.

On the other hand, I don't get high variance in Iberia, generally.

Found a new Portuguese R-L21 this evening: Correia Neves, kit 172173, Ysearch 8E2YH.

I found him in the R1b1a2 Iberian Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b2Iberico/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b2Iberico/default.aspx?section=yresults)

It seems to me R-L21 is fairly common in the Iberian Peninsula.

Going only by the project and Myres et al acknowledging the limitations of this, I still feel there is a pattern.  If you ignore Madrid the Iberian L21 seems to fall into vague groupings. There is a group in the area near the French border, especially the Basque Country.  There is a second group (which IMO is somewhat unexpected) in the SW of Spain inland from Cadiz.  There is a weak suggestion of a 3rd group along the Atlantic seaboard of Iberia but this is IMO unexpectedly weak.  Its the peak in the NE of Spain in and adjacent to the Basque Country and the Spanish border that stands out for me.  There seems to be a lack of a compelling case for the Atlantic Bronze Age model as it seems that there is not exactly a ton of L21 in Portugal and NW Spain. I have a totally open mind on this but the looking for an Iberian origin for L21 to date is very counterintuitive and has a lot more to do with overcrediting the historical content of Irish mythology than it has to reading of the DNA evidence.  

As far as I can see both the frequency peak outside the British Isles and the highest variance are in the northern half of France.  That answers the question of L21 origins as far as I am concerned although caveated by the lack of a systematic sample.  If you look at variance and you look at the upstream phylogeny then surely the current working hypothesis supported by the evidence is that L21 occurred among S116* people who had entered northern France from the east and that they crossed to England not too much later.  


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 24, 2011, 07:52:10 PM
Do you think R-L21 could have actually originated there?  From what I can see, the Pyrenees / Basque clusters of R-P312 are fairly young so the whole Basque/Cantabrian thing may bit of a red herring.

However, that doesn't mean R-P312 doesn't come from Iberia.  There are some unusual haplotypes.  Perhaps an in-depth study of R-P312 in Portugal would be important.

On the other hand, I don't get high variance in Iberia, generally.

I don't know, but that has crossed my mind, too.

Of course, all the things Alan brings up are true, so for now I guess it looks like L21 got to Iberia from France.

It sure would be nice if some scientists would study at least one of these countries in a comprehensive manner.

Correia Neves has joined the R-L21 Plus Project, by the way.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: seferhabahir on October 24, 2011, 11:32:02 AM
Two new Spanish R-L21s to report: kits 149534 and 149541 (no Ysearch IDs yet). They descend from the same ancestor, surname Kimhi, from Sevilla (Seville) in Andalusia.

They are WAMHers, not part of any cluster, and were not recruited by me. (I'm glad they showed up, though.)
Regarding Kimhi (and variations), I have received subsequent emails, and two more descendants of that same ancestor have joined the project. They apparently all come from a famous rabbinical family and descend from one of the most famous rabbis of all time, David Kimhi (also known as RaDak):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radak)

This is cool, in my opinion.
Do you want to know the origin of these Spanish clades like that of the Qimhis and others? These are the clade-mother and the clades-daughters:

1)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,12,13,13,29
2)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,11,13,13,29
3)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,11,13,14,29
4)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,11,11,13,14,29

The fact that DYS439, a pretty fast mutating marker, has remained unchanged makes us hypothesize that everything has happened in restricted times.
If those clades presuppose an unique family line or are picked up here and there it is difficult to say and only a large scale research could answer, but its diffusion overall in the R-L21 world makes us think to independent stocks which, of course, have a far unique origin.

Was doing more research on this DYS439=11 and Z253+ business and took another look at the four (claimed) Rabbi Yosef Kimhi descendents that I "thought" I knew about. I don't know how I missed it before, but only TWO of these supposed descendents are probable. The other two are confirmed L21- according to their only SNP test, and could not possibly be related to the L21+ tested pair. These L21- are maybe R-P312*, but I don't really know since the only SNP that was tested was L21.

Anyway, the thought was that there may be something more here about DYS439=11, Iberia, Sephardim, the Baltic Cluster (and maybe Z253+ as a continental SNP). It is consistent with Maliclavelli's statements above, but here one would need to presume that the "clade mother" is pre-L21, and the Kimchi and Baltic "clade daughters" are post-L21.

The supposed (but not really) Kimhi family:

149534    Camhi     Greece      L21+
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29                                                                                
 
149541    Kimchi     Bulgaria    L21+
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29                                                                               
 
149540    Kamhi      Turkey      L21-
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                                       
153485    Chimichi    Italy        L21-    
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: seferhabahir on October 24, 2011, 11:38:57 AM
Was doing more research on this DYS439=11 and Z253+ business and took another look at the four (claimed) Rabbi Yosef Kimhi descendents that I "thought" I knew about. I don't know how I missed it before, but only TWO of these supposed descendents are probable. The other two are confirmed L21- according to their only SNP test, and could not possibly be related to the L21+ tested pair. These L21- are maybe R-P312*, but I don't really know since the only SNP that was tested was L21.

Of course, maybe the two REAL descendents of Rabbi Yosef Kimhi are the L21- pair, and the ones that are not true descendents are the L21+ pair. I suppose we can see what happens with further Z253+ testing of more Iberians.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: seferhabahir on October 24, 2011, 11:59:17 AM
Of course, maybe the two REAL descendents of Rabbi Yosef Kimhi are the L21- pair, and the ones that are not true descendents are the L21+ pair. I suppose we can see what happens with further Z253+ testing of more Iberians.

You are welcome to read more about the Kimhi family investigations (coordinated by a former FTDNA project administrator) at the following link. At the time this article was published, it was assumed that all four of these Kimhi descendents were all related. And maybe this is the case, but certainly not on a direct paternal line to Rabbi Yosef Kimhi. Points to the dangers of only testing 12 markers.

www.jewishdnaproject.com/Genology.pdf


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 24, 2011, 03:10:10 PM
Yeah, that info came out awhile back, but I never posted a follow-up to it, since it didn't pan out.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 20, 2011, 08:37:48 PM
There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.

I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 20, 2011, 08:41:10 PM
There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.

I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.

This one has a bunch of fairly close McCracken matches at 67 and 37 markers.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 20, 2011, 10:19:03 PM
There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.
I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.
...
This one has a bunch of fairly close McCracken matches at 67 and 37 markers.
Good catch, Rich.

I put him in the spreadsheet. Here is who he is closest to.

fN43805___ Lenares__________________ R-L21________________________ zzL21unassigned_ JDTJC___ Spain
f14749____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ 9TCMN___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Newtown Limavady
f35786____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ XQMXR___ zzzUnkOrigin
f28460____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ A8HY7___ zzzUnkOrigin
f103494___ Robinson_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ DRP7A___ zzzUnkOrigin


This looks like a real cluster - 253-1518.  One of them is Z253* (cousins to L226) so I think they'll all be Z253.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 21, 2011, 09:56:49 AM
There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.
I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.
...
This one has a bunch of fairly close McCracken matches at 67 and 37 markers.
Good catch, Rich.

I put him in the spreadsheet. Here is who he is closest to.

fN43805___ Lenares__________________ R-L21________________________ zzL21unassigned_ JDTJC___ Spain
f14749____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ 9TCMN___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Newtown Limavady
f35786____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ XQMXR___ zzzUnkOrigin
f28460____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ A8HY7___ zzzUnkOrigin
f103494___ Robinson_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ DRP7A___ zzzUnkOrigin


This looks like a real cluster - 253-1518.  One of them is Z253* (cousins to L226) so I think they'll all be Z253.  

Interesting.  McCracken is a Scottish name.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 21, 2011, 07:34:33 PM
There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.
I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.
...
This one has a bunch of fairly close McCracken matches at 67 and 37 markers.
Good catch, Rich.

I put him in the spreadsheet. Here is who he is closest to.

fN43805___ Lenares__________________ R-L21________________________ zzL21unassigned_ JDTJC___ Spain
f14749____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ 9TCMN___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Newtown Limavady
f35786____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ XQMXR___ zzzUnkOrigin
f28460____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ A8HY7___ zzzUnkOrigin
f103494___ Robinson_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ DRP7A___ zzzUnkOrigin


This looks like a real cluster - 253-1518.  One of them is Z253* (cousins to L226) so I think they'll all be Z253.


Which of them is Z253+? That is interesting because Lenares is of Spanish ancestry, but the rest are not.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 21, 2011, 08:48:12 PM
Which of them is Z253+? That is interesting because Lenares is of Spanish ancestry, but the rest are not.
Let's go over to the Z253 thread. Some of the clusters may not be firm and may need to be broken up. Generally, I list the haplogroup. Something like R-L21 means all of the downstream SNPs have not been tested where as R-L21/Z153 indicates there is a positive confirmation on Z153.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on December 22, 2011, 06:44:08 AM
There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.

I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.
The surname Lenares doesn´t exist in Spanish, the real surname was probably Linares . It is a widely spread surname in Spain, mainly in Andalusia, where there is a town called Linares. The first mention of the surname, however, shows up in Santander c.1200 AD, but it is very likely that many Linares got their surname from the city, or even from a local geographic feature (Linares meaning Flax crops)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 11, 2012, 12:12:14 PM
I was glancing through the "Need L21 or Deep Clade Testing" category at the R-L21 Plus Project and discovered that Escalante, kit N10695, just got the first of his Deep Clade results, and is L21+, L226-. Since his mdka came from Mexico, I moved him to the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category.

He does not belong to either of the couple of known Spanish clusters and has no 67-marker matches. Escalante has no Ysearch entry as of yet, as far as I can tell without looking too hard.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: realdealt on March 11, 2012, 03:06:56 PM
I was glancing through the "Need L21 or Deep Clade Testing" category at the R-L21 Plus Project and discovered that Escalante, kit N10695, just got the first of his Deep Clade results, and is L21+, L226-. Since his mdka came from Mexico, I moved him to the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category.

He does not belong to either of the couple of known Spanish clusters and has no 67-marker matches. Escalante has no Ysearch entry as of yet, as far as I can tell without looking too hard.

Escalante, kit N10695 is Ysearch ZPJMX. There is another Escalante, kit 106345 who is Ysearch UA552 and I believe he is the uncle of Escalante, kit N10695. He would also be R-L21 then.




Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on March 11, 2012, 03:50:55 PM
It could seem to whom who don’t believe to my theory (I remember: 1) mutations around the modal 2) convergence to the modal as time passes 3) sometime mutations go for the tangent) that the Spaniard Escalante R-L21 is in the “modal” for many values of his.
But look at:
DYS511=8
DYS557=19
DYS481=24
DYS487=15
DYS572=10

Then : he is probably very ancient, at the origin of R-L21, who was born in Iberia and diffused along the Atlantic coast to the Isles. His values in the modal have had probably many “mutations around the modal”.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 11, 2012, 04:22:51 PM
I was glancing through the "Need L21 or Deep Clade Testing" category at the R-L21 Plus Project and discovered that Escalante, kit N10695, just got the first of his Deep Clade results, and is L21+, L226-. Since his mdka came from Mexico, I moved him to the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category.

He does not belong to either of the couple of known Spanish clusters and has no 67-marker matches. Escalante has no Ysearch entry as of yet, as far as I can tell without looking too hard.

Escalante, kit N10695 is Ysearch ZPJMX. There is another Escalante, kit 106345 who is Ysearch UA552 and I believe he is the uncle of Escalante, kit N10695. He would also be R-L21 then.


Thanks, Robert.

When I saw he had gotten an L21+ result, I just looked real quickly to see if he had a Ysearch entry connected to his myFTDNA pages. At the time, he didn't. When I wrote him to advise him of his new results, I asked him to create a Ysearch entry, but probably he already had that one. I didn't really go looking for it.

I also asked him to join the Iberian Peninsula DNA project. Hopefully, he'll do that.

Any clue where that surname comes from in Spain?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: realdealt on March 11, 2012, 08:11:24 PM
One source says the name Escalante originated from the town of Escalante in the province of Santander, Spain. In another source, I see four persons with the surname Escalante coming from there to the Americas in 1514 and 1518.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 12, 2012, 07:41:34 PM
.... He does not belong to either of the couple of known Spanish clusters and has no 67-marker matches. Escalante has no Ysearch entry as of yet, as far as I can tell without looking too hard.

Escalante, kit N10695 is Ysearch ZPJMX. There is another Escalante, kit 106345 who is Ysearch UA552 and I believe he is the uncle of Escalante, kit N10695. He would also be R-L21 then.
N10695 Escalante has a high 481 value so he is a DF23 suspect.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 12, 2012, 07:56:15 PM
One source says the name Escalante originated from the town of Escalante in the province of Santander, Spain. In another source, I see four persons with the surname Escalante coming from there to the Americas in 1514 and 1518.



Thanks!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 12, 2012, 08:03:37 PM
.... He does not belong to either of the couple of known Spanish clusters and has no 67-marker matches. Escalante has no Ysearch entry as of yet, as far as I can tell without looking too hard.

Escalante, kit N10695 is Ysearch ZPJMX. There is another Escalante, kit 106345 who is Ysearch UA552 and I believe he is the uncle of Escalante, kit N10695. He would also be R-L21 then.
N10695 Escalante has a high 481 value so he is a DF23 suspect.


Yeah, I see that now. It's 24. I'll have to email him and let him know.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 31, 2012, 08:30:05 PM
I spotted a new (new to me, anyway) Iberian R-L21 in the Iberian Peninsula Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA,IberianDNA,IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults), kit 169582, who lists his ancestral surname as Gonsalus. The Ysearch ID is DR9UY.

I am currently trying to recruit this person for the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 01, 2012, 07:48:06 PM
We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 01, 2012, 08:24:22 PM
We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 01, 2012, 08:27:48 PM
We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.

I know they do, but do they use Roma as a surname?

But if Roma appears as the name of a city or cities in Catalonia, that is something of which I was unaware. It would make sense, then, for a Catalan to have that surname.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Richard Rocca on June 01, 2012, 09:02:43 PM
We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.

I know they do, but do they use Roma as a surname?

But if Roma appears as the name of a city or cities in Catalonia, that is something of which I was unaware. It would make sense, then, for a Catalan to have that surname.

Just a correction on my part - I meant to say "Barcelona in Catalonia" as the city name.

As for the use of Roma as a last name in the Romani community, I don't know. I know that like Jews, they typically use names similar to those of local communities.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 01, 2012, 09:13:34 PM
We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.

I know they do, but do they use Roma as a surname?

But if Roma appears as the name of a city or cities in Catalonia, that is something of which I was unaware. It would make sense, then, for a Catalan to have that surname.

Just a correction on my part - I meant to say "Barcelona in Catalonia" as the city name.

As for the use of Roma as a last name in the Romani community, I don't know. I know that like Jews, they typically use names similar to those of local communities.

Okay, I got it. That surname is most common in Barcelona.

I doubt that it has anything to do with the gypsies in this context, but who knows?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: razyn on June 01, 2012, 11:16:10 PM
How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

The most obvious answer would be, "by being a Gypsy," but naming oneself, as opposed to being named by somebody else.  In which case, there, they would be something like Gitano; in Russia Tsygankov, in the Isles Gypsy (or Traveler, Tinker, or something else -- but not Roma).

Anyway, I wouldn't think anybody would name a Spanish family for an Italian city.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 02, 2012, 06:42:00 AM
How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

The most obvious answer would be, "by being a Gypsy," but naming oneself, as opposed to being named by somebody else.  In which case, there, they would be something like Gitano; in Russia Tsygankov, in the Isles Gypsy (or Traveler, Tinker, or something else -- but not Roma).

Anyway, I wouldn't think anybody would name a Spanish family for an Italian city.

I wouldn't either, unless the family wasn't originally Spanish but came there from Italy.

From what I could find out, in Spain the surname Roma appears to be a patronymic derived from the personal name Roman, i.e., Roma means son of Roman and has nothing to do with gypsies.

However, Roma is also an Italian surname, as one can see from this map (http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/ROMA) of its Italian distribution.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Arch Y. on June 02, 2012, 05:56:17 PM
We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.

I know they do, but do they use Roma as a surname?

But if Roma appears as the name of a city or cities in Catalonia, that is something of which I was unaware. It would make sense, then, for a Catalan to have that surname.

Just a correction on my part - I meant to say "Barcelona in Catalonia" as the city name.

As for the use of Roma as a last name in the Romani community, I don't know. I know that like Jews, they typically use names similar to those of local communities.

Okay, I got it. That surname is most common in Barcelona.

I doubt that it has anything to do with the gypsies in this context, but who knows?

I thought the surname Garcia was the most common surname in Catalonia.

Arch


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 02, 2012, 06:56:06 PM
We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.

I know they do, but do they use Roma as a surname?

But if Roma appears as the name of a city or cities in Catalonia, that is something of which I was unaware. It would make sense, then, for a Catalan to have that surname.

Just a correction on my part - I meant to say "Barcelona in Catalonia" as the city name.

As for the use of Roma as a last name in the Romani community, I don't know. I know that like Jews, they typically use names similar to those of local communities.

Okay, I got it. That surname is most common in Barcelona.

I doubt that it has anything to do with the gypsies in this context, but who knows?

I thought the surname Garcia was the most common surname in Catalonia.

Arch

What I wrote was "[t]hat surname [Roma] is most common in Catalonia", not that Roma is the most common surname in Catalonia.

My surname is most common in Cornwall, but I doubt that it is the most common surname there.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on June 04, 2012, 12:10:46 PM


I thought the surname Garcia was the most common surname in Catalonia.

Arch
That speaks volumes of how inaccurate is the use of Spanish surnames looking for origin. Garcia is a surname derived from a name that it is itself in origin a Basque name


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 21, 2012, 08:12:46 AM
Here is a pet peeve not related to any of the posts above (as far as I know):
men of British Isles descent who cannot trace their most distant y-dna ancestor to the Iberian Peninsula who nevertheless join the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project.

Aarrgghh!

I occasionally search the Iberian Peninsula Project for signs of new Spanish or Portuguese R-L21s to recruit for the R-L21 Plus Project. It is a pain to have one's eyes diverted by a green "R1b1a2a1a1b4" only to find it attached to some guy with an English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh surname and a declared origin outside the Iberian Peninsula.

I think I know why these guys are joining the Iberian Peninsula Project. They have been exposed to the old Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge stuff and have accepted it. They think of themselves as Ur-Spaniards or Ur-Basques.

Caramba!



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on June 25, 2012, 06:46:19 AM
Here is a pet peeve not related to any of the posts above (as far as I know):
men of British Isles descent who cannot trace their most distant y-dna ancestor to the Iberian Peninsula who nevertheless join the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project.

Aarrgghh!

I occasionally search the Iberian Peninsula Project for signs of new Spanish or Portuguese R-L21s to recruit for the R-L21 Plus Project. It is a pain to have one's eyes diverted by a green "R1b1a2a1a1b4" only to find it attached to some guy with an English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh surname and a declared origin outside the Iberian Peninsula.

I think I know why these guys are joining the Iberian Peninsula Project. They have been exposed to the old Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge stuff and have accepted it. They think of themselves as Ur-Spaniards or Ur-Basques.

Caramba!



I would suspect some people are looking for connections to the Milesian Story, rather than the ice-age thing.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/library/book5/invasion.html#Milesians


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mark Jost on June 25, 2012, 09:08:40 AM
Here is a Google EBook (Downloadable PDF) that I am reading seems to cover all the bases.

An illustrated history of Ireland: from the earliest period (Google eBook)

http://books.google.com/books/about/An_illustrated_history_of_Ireland.html?id=ZSEvAAAAMAAJ



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on June 25, 2012, 04:20:50 PM
I'll have a look at it..on the other hand we still have "Ireland's History in Maps" http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire000.htm


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Heber on June 25, 2012, 09:01:48 PM
I have collected all those maps in one board which makes reviewing them simpler. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. See the Irish History in Maps board.
Any suggestions for other interesting sites are welcome.

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on June 26, 2012, 11:08:14 AM
I visit the Megalithic Portal for Megalithic photos from all of Europe.
There are some nice listings under Spain.
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/topics.php?countries=1

I don't know how long L21 has been in Iberia.

I guess most of us will be happier once some L21+ aDNA is found some places in Europe.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 26, 2012, 06:09:51 PM
Well the one thing that appears clear is that L21 is high in Iberia in the border area with France in the Pyrenees.   This to me is not the distribution you would expect if L21 was connected to beaker Atlantic links or Atlantic Bronze Age ones 1000 years later when it is western Iberia that seems stronger in these links.
 
This ties in with the idea too that Iberia may have been the origin of beaker pottery (although there are still people who disagree) but it was much of the receiver than donor in the developed beaker phase. 

It also seems possible to me that L21 drifted into Iberia from France with the Pyrennees possibly much later becoming a reguge area for some L21 lineages during the effects of huge events like the conquest of Gaul etc. 

I think L21 is a very peripheral issue in the arrival of R1b in Iberia.  The real question is DF27 and when it arrived and came to be so very dominant in Iberia.  I dont think the geography of DF27 outside Iberia is clear in my head so its hard to speculate other that it must have come from wherever P312 arose and I would favour somewhere like SE France or  maybe further east for that.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 02, 2012, 12:00:26 PM
I just recruited a new Portuguese member for the R-L21 Plus Project: Torres, kit 235991. He has ordered L21, but he belongs to that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19, which has consistently been L21+ DF13+. We have six others in that cluster, three Portuguese and three Spaniards, in the project already.

Torres' mdka was born in the Azores.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 02, 2012, 12:12:54 PM
I just recruited a new Portuguese member for the R-L21 Plus Project: Torres, kit 235991. He has ordered L21, but he belongs to that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19, which has consistently been L21+ DF13+. We have six others in that cluster, three Portuguese and three Spaniards, in the project already.

Torres' mdka was born in the Azores.

BTW, this seems to be a west Iberian cluster. Portugal, of course, is at the west end of the peninsula, and the two Spaniards who belong to it who know where in Spain their most distant ancestors came from are western, as well: one from Galicia, the other from Cumbres Mayores in Andalucia.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 02, 2012, 01:02:44 PM
Another representative of that cluster has ordered DF41 and DF49, which I think are the only branches of L21 it hasn't been tested for.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 02, 2012, 01:07:48 PM
Another representative of that cluster has ordered DF41 and DF49, which I think are the only branches of L21 it hasn't been tested for.

Oops, wait . . . no Z255 test among them.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 02, 2012, 03:15:44 PM
There is definately a small concentration of L21 in SW Spain.  I am suspicious it relates to the important southernmost node there in the Atlantic Bronze Age trade networks although I suspect it moved north to south rather than the other way and the DF13 positive aspect makes me think this even more.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 02, 2012, 08:47:09 PM
This particular cluster has four in Portugal. They all have ancestry in the Azores.

There are two Spaniards who can identify an ancestral home in Spain: one from Andalucia, and one from Galicia.

The other cluster member with a Spanish surname cannot get his paper trail out of Mexico.

I know of at least four R-L21 in the northwestern part of the Iberian peninsula: one from Valenca do Minho in Portugal, and three from Galicia.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 03, 2012, 09:43:13 AM
This particular cluster has four in Portugal. They all have ancestry in the Azores.

There are two Spaniards who can identify an ancestral home in Spain: one from Andalucia, and one from Galicia.

The other cluster member with a Spanish surname cannot get his paper trail out of Mexico.

I know of at least four R-L21 in the northwestern part of the Iberian peninsula: one from Valenca do Minho in Portugal, and three from Galicia.

I have in my notes there is one from Portugal tested by 23andMe but I have no STRs for him. Do we have a Ysearch Id or anything as far as STR data?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 03, 2012, 09:51:33 AM
This particular cluster has four in Portugal. They all have ancestry in the Azores.

There are two Spaniards who can identify an ancestral home in Spain: one from Andalucia, and one from Galicia.

The other cluster member with a Spanish surname cannot get his paper trail out of Mexico.

I know of at least four R-L21 in the northwestern part of the Iberian peninsula: one from Valenca do Minho in Portugal, and three from Galicia.

I have in my notes there is one from Portugal tested by 23andMe but I have no STRs for him. Do we have a Ysearch Id or anything as far as STR data?


Are you asking about the one from Valenco do Minho?

I don't have anything on him other than the basic info that he has tested L21+. I tried to recruit him for the project, but never could talk him into it. I came in contact with him when I was posting at Eupedia's y-dna forum, where his screen name is or was "Cambria Red", as I recall.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: samIsaack on August 03, 2012, 11:22:52 AM
Well the one thing that appears clear is that L21 is high in Iberia in the border area with France in the Pyrenees.   This to me is not the distribution you would expect if L21 was connected to beaker Atlantic links or Atlantic Bronze Age ones 1000 years later when it is western Iberia that seems stronger in these links.
 
This ties in with the idea too that Iberia may have been the origin of beaker pottery (although there are still people who disagree) but it was much of the receiver than donor in the developed beaker phase. 

It also seems possible to me that L21 drifted into Iberia from France with the Pyrennees possibly much later becoming a reguge area for some L21 lineages during the effects of huge events like the conquest of Gaul etc. 

I think L21 is a very peripheral issue in the arrival of R1b in Iberia.  The real question is DF27 and when it arrived and came to be so very dominant in Iberia.  I dont think the geography of DF27 outside Iberia is clear in my head so its hard to speculate other that it must have come from wherever P312 arose and I would favour somewhere like SE France or  maybe further east for that.

I think the same can be said of DF27, but at a much higher rate.. I beat this drum often but I do believe SRY2627 had origins outside of Iberia.. Variance runs, however much credit they are given, show France with a clear lead for this subclade. Keeping in mind that SRY2627 is a fairly good ways down the DF27 tree. This to me speaks for an origin point of the younger clades being in France.. L21, L176.2 and family, and perhaps some of the younger clades of U152.. I'm not too familiar with U152, other than its Alpine association. I'd say France was and is pretty much P312 saturated.. with L21 mostly in the Northwest, DF27 and subclades mostly in the Central and Southwest regions and U152 dominating the more easterly regions.

 I'd say DF27's dominance in Iberia is of a recent occurance and is merely spill over from France, not the opposite. One thing I don't here many people consider, is that the old diverse strains of DF27 wandering or fleeing into Iberia may give a false impression of older age in the region. The clade is just too widespread, appearing as far north as Scandinavia and as far east as the Ukraine. Anywhere besides a central locale such as France doesn't make sense to me. DF27 really needs to be studied in much more depth, as I feel much of what is said of it, is based on recent subclades and overflow of subclades into Iberia. It strikes me as something of a difficult problem that is largely ignored and shuffled away.. An ostrich sticking its head in the sand, sort of thing.

I'd place the origins for P312 itself at a more eastern distance than South east France..not a great distance, but still a bit further, more in the region of Northern Italy, Southeast Germany. In all actuality, I'd say South East France is where the younger clades that I mentioned above would have sprang forth.. Though this does come into conflict with P312's diversity being the highest in the region, if I'm not mistaken..

What are the age estimates for DF27 vs U152? They can't be a great deal different.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 03, 2012, 11:57:01 AM
... I'd say DF27's dominance in Iberia is of a recent occurance and is merely spill over from France, not the opposite
...
What are the age estimates for DF27 vs U152? They can't be a great deal different.

I kind of follow you here but I think to say it is "merely spill over" is a tad overstated.  There was some major expansion in Iberia for DF27 that was similar in scope to L21's expansion in the (British) Isles. There maybe DF27 lineages, and I suspect there are, that never set foot on Iberia but the DF27 in Iberia were a major force, no doubt.

STR diversity remains higher for U152 than for DF27, but we still need a lot more P312* types to test for DF27.  I don't even call a P312+ U15- L21- DF27? person P312* anymore. They need to test for DF27.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: samIsaack on August 03, 2012, 01:32:13 PM
... I'd say DF27's dominance in Iberia is of a recent occurance and is merely spill over from France, not the opposite
...
What are the age estimates for DF27 vs U152? They can't be a great deal different.

I kind of follow you here but I think to say it is "merely spill over" is a tad overstated.  There was some major expansion in Iberia for DF27 that was similar in scope to L21's expansion in the (British) Isles. There maybe DF27 lineages, and I suspect there are, that never set foot on Iberia but the DF27 in Iberia were a major force, no doubt.

STR diversity remains higher for U152 than for DF27, but we still need a lot more P312* types to test for DF27.  I don't even call a P312+ U152+ L21+ DF27? person P312* anymore. They need to test for DF27.

Agreed, I was just typing it as it came to me and I didn't really think about it until you pointed it out. It was just my general annoyance at the lack of interest in DF27 showing through :)

I also agree that DF27 had great success in Iberia.. I wasn't denying that at all. Though I do think it spilled over from France along with some L21 at a later date (When I say later, I'm not referring to modern events). Going back to my and seemingly everyone elses belief that DF27 was quite prominent in Southern France, though I would also include Central France as well. I think of the DF27 in Iberia, that the majority of it is Z196.. DF27 originates more to the east, Z196 in Southeastern France and basically staying in that general region of France, with a few outliers going here and there, until some more recent historical events pushed it further south into Iberia (Conquest of Gaul as Alan pointed out). These people must have been N/S, SRY2627, M153.. L165 is conspicuously absent though, save the one guy who is either out of London or Spain.

I think DF27 is going to paint a very different picture once the P312* people start to dwindle down. I think DF27 is going to be shown as having the greatest impact on Europe as a whole, seeing as how most P312* is going to be positive for it. It got a late start, but at least its now starting to show, albeit slowy, that it is a major force and one of the big three.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Richard Rocca on August 03, 2012, 02:16:15 PM

Agreed, I was just typing it as it came to me and I didn't really think about it until you pointed it out. It was just my general annoyance at the lack of interest in DF27 showing through :)

I also agree that DF27 had great success in Iberia.. I wasn't denying that at all. Though I do think it spilled over from France along with some L21 at a later date (When I say later, I'm not referring to modern events). Going back to my and seemingly everyone elses belief that DF27 was quite prominent in Southern France, though I would also include Central France as well. I think of the DF27 in Iberia, that the majority of it is Z196.. DF27 originates more to the east, Z196 in Southeastern France and basically staying in that general region of France, with a few outliers going here and there, until some more recent historical events pushed it further south into Iberia (Conquest of Gaul as Alan pointed out). These people must have been N/S, SRY2627, M153.. L165 is conspicuously absent though, save the one guy who is either out of London or Spain.

I think DF27 is going to paint a very different picture once the P312* people start to dwindle down. I think DF27 is going to be shown as having the greatest impact on Europe as a whole, seeing as how most P312* is going to be positive for it. It got a late start, but at least its now starting to show, albeit slowy, that it is a major force and one of the big three.

This is about as unlikely a scenario as possible.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: samIsaack on August 03, 2012, 02:18:40 PM

Agreed, I was just typing it as it came to me and I didn't really think about it until you pointed it out. It was just my general annoyance at the lack of interest in DF27 showing through :)

I also agree that DF27 had great success in Iberia.. I wasn't denying that at all. Though I do think it spilled over from France along with some L21 at a later date (When I say later, I'm not referring to modern events). Going back to my and seemingly everyone elses belief that DF27 was quite prominent in Southern France, though I would also include Central France as well. I think of the DF27 in Iberia, that the majority of it is Z196.. DF27 originates more to the east, Z196 in Southeastern France and basically staying in that general region of France, with a few outliers going here and there, until some more recent historical events pushed it further south into Iberia (Conquest of Gaul as Alan pointed out). These people must have been N/S, SRY2627, M153.. L165 is conspicuously absent though, save the one guy who is either out of London or Spain.

I think DF27 is going to paint a very different picture once the P312* people start to dwindle down. I think DF27 is going to be shown as having the greatest impact on Europe as a whole, seeing as how most P312* is going to be positive for it. It got a late start, but at least its now starting to show, albeit slowy, that it is a major force and one of the big three.

This is about as unlikely a scenario as possible.

Care to explain instead of snidely commenting with a single sentence?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Richard Rocca on August 03, 2012, 07:14:59 PM
Care to explain instead of snidely commenting with a single sentence?

Sorry about the short response, I was in transit. I'll reply on a DF27 thread so as not to high-jack this one.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2012, 09:21:28 AM
Yesterday we acquired our first L21+ who can trace his ancestry to Iberia - in this case, Spain: Arrizabalaga. His most distant ancestor came from Azcoitia in the Basque country, and Arrizabalaga is a Basque surname. I have added him to the R-L21* Map.

Thus far, Iberia remains overwhelmingly L21-, but it would be nice if all our Iberian brethren were fully SNP tested.

Unfortunately, Arrizabalaga has only a 12-marker haplotype at this time.

This is where we were 2 1/2 years ago. Our data set is building. Mark J has done some analysis to show that Spain has high variance for L21. I just did a run of L21 using the 36 "linear" marker STRs out of 67 STR haplotypes. I found higher variance there too, versus France and the British Isles.

This was based on 20 haplotypes so thats a little tenuous, maybe a lot, but I'll go back we can all look at the details.  There are some strange haplotypes from Spain. I think it makes a difference from where, too. If the diversity is in the Pyrenees versus the rest of Spain that would be important but I doubt if we have enough data to figure that out.

Thanks, for bringing this to our attention Mark.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2012, 04:06:33 PM
Below is a list of the 55 people that are L21+ or appear to fit in clusters that are L21+. There undoubtedly are others in Iberian projects that aren't tested for L21 but have "unassignable" STR signatures.

Of the 55, 49 are either confirmed by testing from FTDNA or the Administrator has evaluated them as such.
 
Of the Big Six SNPs downstream of DF13, only Z253 has been confirmed in Spain so far. However, there hasn't been that much deep SNP testing in this group. Also, only 30 are at 67 markers. The 20 I referenced earlier were 20 L21+ tested from Spain which is a subset of this 30.

There is at least one known DF13* person who is minus for all of the Bix Six SNPs. There is also a DF63+ person, which is noteworthy because DF63 is DF13- so that is a very early branch within L21.


f31126   Olazabal   R-L21/DF13     unnassigned   Spain, Andalucía, Cadiz
f171804   Sánchez   R-L21/DF13*   13-111311   Spain, Andalucía, Córdoba
fN5681   De la Puerta   R-L21   9919-A-SP   Spain, Andalucía, Huelva, Cumbres Mayores
f165841   De Trujillo Villvicecio   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain, Andalucía, Sanlúcar de Barrameda
f149540   Kimhi   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain, Andalucía, Sevilla
f149541   Kimhi   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain, Andalucía, Sevilla
f153485   Kimhi   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain, Andalucía, Sevilla
f251256   Sánchez   R-L21   21-314-P12   Spain, Andalusia, Córdoba, Montilla
fN94538   Medina   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain, Aragón
y88NXH   De Herrera   suspect   9919-A-SP   Spain, Canaries
f46334   Sampedro   R-L21/DF13/Z253   253-1211   Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
fE8582   Montero   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain, Extremadura, Caceres
fN16025   Gomez   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain, Galicia
f89912   Rodriguez   R-L21/DF13   21-246-1417   Spain, Galicia, Ourense
fE2160   López Salgado   R-L21   9919-A-SP   Spain, Valencia, Alicante, Aldurfe (Lugo)
fN93033   Amuchástegui   R-L21/DF13/Z253**   253-1211   Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
f138847   Arrizabalaga   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain, Basque Country, Guipuzcoa, Azcoitia
f58857   Archuleta   R-L21   253-1211   Spain, Basque Country, Guipuzcoa, Eibar
f58625   Guerra   R-L21/DF13/Z253   253- unassigned   Spain
f143916   Rodriguez   R-L21/DF13/Z253   253- unassigned   Spain
f128223   Calzada   R-L21   253-1211   Spain
f66434   Davila   R-L21/DF13/Z253   253-1211   Spain
f82247   Garcia   R-L21   253-1211   Spain
f152157   Lopez    R-L21   253-1211   Spain
f67597   Robles   R-L21/DF13/Z253   253-1211   Spain
f167768   Romero   R-L21   253-1211   Spain
fN1859   DeJesus   suspect   253-1711*   Spain
fN43805   Lenares   R-L21   253-1715   Spain
f151786   Montoya   suspect   513-D*   Spain
f40955   Leal   suspect   9919-A-SP   Spain
yJ45FQ   Lopez   suspect   9919-A-SP   Spain
f232541   Roma   R-L21/DF63   X1363-913   Spain
f197385   Barraza   R-L21/DF13     unnassigned   Spain
fN10695   Escalante   R-L21/DF13     unnassigned   Spain
f169582   Gonsalus   R-L21/DF13     unnassigned   Spain
f46904   Montanez   R-L21/DF13     unnassigned   Spain
f182680   Andrada   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
fE6409   Arévalo   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
f46448   Barreto   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
f99240   Cantu   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
f171230   De Herrera   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
f119065   De Vasconcelos   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
f106345   Escalante   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
f162171   Fernándes    R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
f146430   Llansó    R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
fN20869   Mariño    R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
f140448   Palmas   R-L21     unnassigned   Spain
f79767   Vargus   R-L21/DF13   9919-A-SP   Portugal, Azores, Castelo Branco, Faial
yGQW5Y   Silva   suspect   9919-A-SP   Portugal, Madeira, Calheta
f235991   De Torres   R-L21   9919-A-SP   Portugal
f136490   Costa   R-L21/DF13   9919-A-SP   Portugal
f157713   Ventura   R-L21   9919-A-SP   Portugal
f172173   Neves   R-L21/DF13   1513   Portugal
f178851   zzzUnknown   R-L21     unnassigned   Portugal
f118176   Dos Reis   R-L21     unnassigned   Portugal, Madeira


Some of the people listed may not have genealogical records connecting to Iberia.

I've always been surprised at the numbers showing up as you go south along the coast of Portugal and all the way to Andulucia. I don't really see people from Madrid and the center of Spain.  Maybe this is a sea oriented expansion/migration thing with the Basques in addition.

We'll have to pull that study up that did test for L21.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: IALEM on October 04, 2012, 05:35:39 PM
Yesterday we acquired our first L21+ who can trace his ancestry to Iberia - in this case, Spain: Arrizabalaga. His most distant ancestor came from Azcoitia in the Basque country, and Arrizabalaga is a Basque surname. I have added him to the R-L21* Map.

Thus far, Iberia remains overwhelmingly L21-, but it would be nice if all our Iberian brethren were fully SNP tested.

Unfortunately, Arrizabalaga has only a 12-marker haplotype at this time.

This is where we were 2 1/2 years ago. Our data set is building. Mark J has done some analysis to show that Spain has high variance for L21. I just did a run of L21 using the 36 "linear" marker STRs out of 67 STR haplotypes. I found higher variance there too, versus France and the British Isles.

This was based on 20 haplotypes so thats a little tenuous, maybe a lot, but I'll go back we can all look at the details.  There are some strange haplotypes from Spain. I think it makes a difference from where, too. If the diversity is in the Pyrenees versus the rest of Spain that would be important but I doubt if we have enough data to figure that out.

Thanks, for bringing this to our attention Mark.
I am that first L-21+ tested in Iberia. I haven´t done any further test waiting for a definitory snp, I am considering doing DF13/DF63...I wonder if is worth


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2012, 06:18:12 PM
Yesterday we acquired our first L21+ who can trace his ancestry to Iberia - in this case, Spain: Arrizabalaga. His most distant ancestor came from Azcoitia in the Basque country, and Arrizabalaga is a Basque surname. I have added him to the R-L21* Map.

Thus far, Iberia remains overwhelmingly L21-, but it would be nice if all our Iberian brethren were fully SNP tested.

Unfortunately, Arrizabalaga has only a 12-marker haplotype at this time.

This is where we were 2 1/2 years ago. Our data set is building. Mark J has done some analysis to show that Spain has high variance for L21. I just did a run of L21 using the 36 "linear" marker STRs out of 67 STR haplotypes. I found higher variance there too, versus France and the British Isles.

This was based on 20 haplotypes so thats a little tenuous, maybe a lot, but I'll go back we can all look at the details.  There are some strange haplotypes from Spain. I think it makes a difference from where, too. If the diversity is in the Pyrenees versus the rest of Spain that would be important but I doubt if we have enough data to figure that out.

Thanks, for bringing this to our attention Mark.
I am that first L-21+ tested in Iberia. I haven´t done any further test waiting for a definitory snp, I am considering doing DF13/DF63...I wonder if is worth

Yes, please. It would be of great help to know if you are DF13+.  If you are DF13- then DF63 is the next and last SNP step.  If you are DF13+, that could be even more important but the options get harder for DF13+ people.  This chart describes L21.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

I know it is expensive, but one of the benefits of upgrading to 67 markers is we might already know (beyond DF13) what SNP you should test for.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 04, 2012, 07:55:28 PM
It is gratifying to me to see an interesting turn of events with regard to Iberian L21 haplotypes . . . because I personally worked my butt off recruiting most of those folks for testing.

Meanwhile, at one point I was accused by a couple of people of being "anti-Iberian" and wanting to press L21 into a German "template".

Of course, nothing could have been further from the truth. I was recruiting anyone and everyone I thought could possibly be L21+, and I rejoiced every single time we got a Spanish or Portuguese hit.

The more, the merrier!


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2012, 08:25:50 PM
I've always been surprised at the numbers showing up as you go south along the coast of Portugal and all the way to Andulucia. I don't really see people from Madrid and the center of Spain.  Maybe this is a sea oriented expansion/migration thing with the Basques in addition.

We'll have to pull that study up that did test for L21.

This is the frequency %'s I calculate for the related areas from the Busby data, which aggregates several other studies.

France South   8%
East Spain C   8%
East Spain V   7%
South West France   7%
South Spain   7%
Central Portugal   6%
Cantabria, Santander   5%
Portugal, Lisbon   3%
South Portugal   3%
Castille And Leon, Leon   2%
Valencian Community, Valencia   1%
Basque   0%


These academic studies do have scant sample sizes in some cases. We know L21 among Basques is not 0%.  Isn't there another study that studied the Pyrenees?

L21 looks pretty scattered in Iberia. It's not a dominant clade but these are fairly respectable percentages.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2012, 08:34:27 PM
....  Our data set is building. Mark J has done some analysis to show that Spain has high variance for L21. I just did a run of L21 using the 36 "linear" marker STRs out of 67 STR haplotypes. I found higher variance there too, versus France and the British Isles.

This was based on 20 haplotypes so thats a little tenuous, maybe a lot, but I'll go back we can all look at the details.....

When I expanded the data set to include Portugal and the nonconfirmed results I get up to 30 haplotypes. That did change the relative positioning. France edged back ahead as most diverse.

Iberian L21 is still largely unique and is still quite diverse even though it isn't frequent. However, at this number of haplotypes it's tenuous to make conclusions. Moving from 20 to 30 (which is 50% increase) changed things.

Let me re-iterate though that the difference between France, the British Isles and Iberia is very little as of the current data available. We are talking only a couple of percentage points either way.  This is why I would not give up on either side of the English Channel as being the birthplace of L21.

We'll want to continue the search for DF13- and DF13+ subclades (downstream of L21.) If we found DF49* without DF23* nor M222 in Iberia I think that would be quite significant. We see a lot of DF23* in Wales and of course M222 is as Irish as Irish/Scots gets.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Richard Rocca on October 04, 2012, 08:53:27 PM
I've always been surprised at the numbers showing up as you go south along the coast of Portugal and all the way to Andulucia. I don't really see people from Madrid and the center of Spain.  Maybe this is a sea oriented expansion/migration thing with the Basques in addition.

We'll have to pull that study up that did test for L21.

This is the frequency %'s I calculate for the related areas from the Busby data, which aggregates several other studies.

France South   8%
East Spain C   8%
East Spain V   7%
South West France   7%
South Spain   7%
Central Portugal   6%
Cantabria, Santander   5%
Portugal, Lisbon   3%
South Portugal   3%
Castille And Leon, Leon   2%
Valencian Community, Valencia   1%
Basque   0%


These academic studies do have scant sample sizes in some cases. We know L21 among Basques is not 0%.  Isn't there another study that studied the Pyrenees?

L21 looks pretty scattered in Iberia. It's not a dominant clade but these are fairly respectable percentages.

According to Martinez-Cruz et al. 2012, L21 is much more important in the Franco-Cantabrian areas...

BigorreFrance0.068181818
BearnFrance0.142857143
ChalosseFrance0.103448276
BaztanFrance0.272727273
NafarroaFrance0.136363636
ZuberoaFrance0.056603774
RoncalSpain0.20754717
Nafarroa-CWSpain0.15
Nafarroa-NWSpain0.098039216
GipuzkoaSpain0.191489362
Gipuzkoa-SWSpain0.228070175
ArabaSpain0.215686275
BizkaiaSpain0.122807018
Bizkaia-WSpain0.105263158
CantabriaSpain0.000
BurgosSpain0.000
La RiojaSpain0.111111111
Aragon-NSpain0.037037037


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 04, 2012, 09:04:13 PM
I don't think it's likely that L21 was born in the Isles. That would mean its immediate antecedent went there as P312*, and we just don't see that much P312* in the Isles that could have developed clades parallel to L21. The other P312 stuff in the Isles is mostly DF27+ and U152+, and those seem to be concentrated in the south and east, indicating later arrivals.

Of course, what DF13- DF63- there is has been found so far mostly in eastern England, but that is not surprising, given the relative number of test subjects with ancestry in the Isles versus those with ancestry from the Continent.

It seems to me the elevated L21 variance in the Isles is most likely due to its having been the receiver of immigrants from a variety of sources. No doubt the variance of L21 in North America rivals that of many locales in Europe for the same reason.

Continental Europe has the diverse variety of P312 that makes it the likely birthplace of L21 and, IMHO, of DF13, as well.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 04, 2012, 10:30:44 PM
I don't think it's likely that L21 was born in the Isles. That would mean its immediate antecedent went there as P312*, and we just don't see that much P312* in the Isles that could have developed clades parallel to L21. The other P312 stuff in the Isles is mostly DF27+ and U152+, and those seem to be concentrated in the south and east, indicating later arrivals.

Of course, what DF13- DF63- there is has been found so far mostly in eastern England, but that is not surprising, given the relative number of test subjects with ancestry in the Isles versus those with ancestry from the Continent.

It seems to me the elevated L21 variance in the Isles is most likely due to its having been the receiver of immigrants from a variety of sources. No doubt the variance of L21 in North America rivals that of many locales in Europe for the same reason.

Continental Europe has the diverse variety of P312 that makes it the likely birthplace of L21 and, IMHO, of DF13, as well.

I recognize there is testing bias in that our pioneers, the consumer/hobbyist testers, are leading the way.  ... and these hobbyists are most likely Americans with British Isles ancestors or are Isles people currently.

This is about a month old, but here are the most P312 asterisk people I know. In other words, they've done the most SNP testing immediately downstream of P312 and been negative for all but P312.

f119719   Williams   zzzUnkOrigin   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- DF19- L238- L147.3- Z229-
f92633   Crosby   England, South West, Bristol   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- L238- L459-
f29073   Fimbres   zzzUnkOrigin   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21-
f208664   Hewitt   UK   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21-
f131410   Ireland   England, North West, Lancashire, Halebank   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21-
f104079   Keyes   England   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- DF19- L238-
f51865   McFarlane   England, London, Middlesex, Islington   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- DF19- L238- L459- Z245- Z229-
f128845   Merrill   England, West Midlands, Warwickshire   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- L238-
f27064   Hatton   England, East Midlands, Nottinghamshire   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- DF19- L459-
f160082   Reader   England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Humberside, Whitgift   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- DF19- L459- Z245-


... I'm not making this up, but its people with English MDKAs.  I'm a bit surprised there are not Irish or Scots because they do more testing. I would, as you probably would, expect a Frenchman or two or maybe a German. This might because of lower testing penetration, but still the English have the true P312* people.  

I wish the Iberians and French would test as deeply as the Isles folks.

This doesn't mean I think L21 was born in England, but I don't think it can be entirely discounted.   Hey, there are probably those who think U106 may have reached Denmark and the Baltic with Bell Beakers, probably as a pre-U106 L11* lineage. There is a bit of L11* in Scandinavia. If the Bell Beakers were primarily L11*, which is possible, L21 may have been born anywhere along the French or English coasts.

If instead, the overland Stelae people were critical to Y lineage populations of NW Europe, then L21 was more likely from closer to the Rhine.  I lean towards this thinking but I don't know.




Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jean M on October 05, 2012, 03:42:10 AM
Celts from Gaul seem to have settled in Iberia in the last few centuries before the Roman conquest of the peninsula. Certainly late enough for Strabo to be able to tell us that people of the same incursion had settled in Galicia and around the Guadiana, now part of the Portuguese–Spanish border in the south. We might therefore expect L21 to mirror the distribution of U152 (http://www.u152.org/) in Iberia to some extent. In the Post-Roman period some Britons fled to Galicia, which I dare say would boost the L21 there.  In the same period some Basques were moving across the border from Gaul and settling what is now the Spanish Basque Country. Looks like they carried some L21 with them.  

Later still British and Irish troops were billeted all over Spain and Portugal in the Peninsula Wars.

So subclades are likely to be important in sifting one source of L21 from another in Iberia.



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 05, 2012, 03:55:40 AM
I still think you have to look at where those P312* in Britain come from and at the Busby results. There isn't that much P312* in Britain, most of it is in the east per Busby, and Busby didn't test for DF27, which would have eliminated the biggest part of what Busby did find.

If you are looking for the birthplace of L21, you have to look at the place with the biggest and most diverse (in terms of SNPs, not necessarily haplotypes) population of non-L21 cousins. That's not Britain or Ireland.

The evidence seems to indicate that L21 arrived in the Isles as already L21 and probably mostly as already DF13, and not as potential-L21, that is, in the body of an ancestor who would later give rise to L21 or one of whose descendants would.

There is a strong temptation or tendency to see L21 as originating in the Isles because that's where most of it is now. Another problem is the absolutely tremendous skewing of the database to the Isles because most of the y-dna testing is North American. Of course, we would ferret out the English P312* because that's who is doing the bulk of the testing.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Castlebob on October 05, 2012, 06:35:49 AM
I don't think it's likely that L21 was born in the Isles. That would mean its immediate antecedent went there as P312*, and we just don't see that much P312* in the Isles that could have developed clades parallel to L21. The other P312 stuff in the Isles is mostly DF27+ and U152+, and those seem to be concentrated in the south and east, indicating later arrivals.

Of course, what DF13- DF63- there is has been found so far mostly in eastern England, but that is not surprising, given the relative number of test subjects with ancestry in the Isles versus those with ancestry from the Continent.

It seems to me the elevated L21 variance in the Isles is most likely due to its having been the receiver of immigrants from a variety of sources. No doubt the variance of L21 in North America rivals that of many locales in Europe for the same reason.

Continental Europe has the diverse variety of P312 that makes it the likely birthplace of L21 and, IMHO, of DF13, as well.

I recognize there is testing bias in that our pioneers, the consumer/hobbyist testers, are leading the way.  ... and these hobbyists are most likely Americans with British Isles ancestors or are Isles people currently.

This is about a month old, but here are the most P312 asterisk people I know. In other words, they've done the most SNP testing immediately downstream of P312 and been negative for all but P312.

f119719   Williams   zzzUnkOrigin   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- DF19- L238- L147.3- Z229-
f92633   Crosby   England, South West, Bristol   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- L238- L459-
f29073   Fimbres   zzzUnkOrigin   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21-
f208664   Hewitt   UK   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21-
f131410   Ireland   England, North West, Lancashire, Halebank   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21-
f104079   Keyes   England   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- DF19- L238-
f51865   McFarlane   England, London, Middlesex, Islington   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- DF19- L238- L459- Z245- Z229-
f128845   Merrill   England, West Midlands, Warwickshire   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- L238-
f27064   Hatton   England, East Midlands, Nottinghamshire   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- DF19- L459-
f160082   Reader   England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Humberside, Whitgift   P312+ M65- U152- DF27- L21- DF19- L459- Z245-


... I'm not making this up, but its people with English MDKAs.  I'm a bit surprised there are not Irish or Scots because they do more testing. I would, as you probably would, expect a Frenchman or two or maybe a German. This might because of lower testing penetration, but still the English have the true P312* people.  





You can add my name to the above, Mike. I haven't taken the L238 test as a close Armstrong match has, & was L238-.
I tried to make a case for the above being from typically Brythonic Celt areas of England (west of the Pennines), Wales & southern Scotland. Many of the above fit that template, although I appreciate I was judging their origins on their earliest-known ancestors, so possibly not terribly accurate.
I can say that the Armstrong surname was in the traditional Rheged/Kingdom of Strathclyde regions in the early 1200s, but appreciate they may have come from elsewhere. In nearly 40 years research I've looked at all the likely origins for my surnmame's progenitor, & the likeliest would appear to be Brythonic Celt.
I would assume that Brythonic Celt would be the majority for most of those west of the Pennines, Wales & southern Scotland.
As you say, more Y-DNA required!
Bob


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 05, 2012, 08:19:02 AM
It is well to keep in mind that our English P312* folks are only temporarily P312* pending the discovery of one or more new SNPs. For their presence to support an Isles origin for L21, one would have to demonstrate some sort of connection between them and L21, like a shared marker between P312 and L21.

The Continent is the real matrix of P312 and its offspring and so is the likeliest place to look for the birthplace of L21.

For France and Iberia to surpass the Isles in variance, even just a little, given the overwhelming number of British Isles L21 haplotypes available relative to those from the Continent, is pretty amazing. The Isles, as isles at the northwestern extremity of Europe, have been on the receiving end of population movement from Europe to a much greater extent than they have provided the reverse. L21 haplotype variance in the Isles is likely relatively high because of that fact: they have received L21 from a number of sources and not just one.

That's why haplotype variance is tricky and cannot be relied on to indicate origin in and of itself. It has to be viewed in the context of other types of evidence, like that from archaeology, anthropology, history, and linguistics.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Castlebob on October 05, 2012, 08:49:25 AM
I agree, Rich. Just for clarification: I wasn't trying to claim the British Isles as the home of L21. My view is that it is of continental origin. I was just trying to find some common denominator for the names listed.
As you say, many of those currently listed as P312* may well become separated as further discoveries are made.  However, I was intrigued that, with the facts as we know them, there was a potential  'west of the Pennines'  link.
It's worth remembering that the gap between surnames first evolving in Britain & the end of Brythonic rule in many areas wasn't that great, so may of us in the west of these isles may well be Brythonic.
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 05, 2012, 08:55:31 AM
It is well to keep in mind that our English P312* folks are only temporarily P312* pending the discovery of one or more new SNPs. For their presence to support an Isles origin for L21, one would have to demonstrate some sort of connection between them and L21, like a shared marker between P312 and L21....

I agree a with what you are saying above.  You brought a P312* rationale into the discussion in this earlier post below.

I don't think it's likely that L21 was born in the Isles. That would mean its immediate antecedent went there as P312*, and we just don't see that much P312* in the Isles that could have developed clades parallel to L21.

P312* folks are brothers to L21 so where they are found is a consideration. Unfortunately, we do not know which P312* are closer related to L21.

U152, DF27, L238 and DF19 are also brothers to L21 along with P312*. From what we know, none is more closely related to the other than to another. Therefore, we should consider the placement of all the brothers. P312* (modern P312* that is) is no more important than the rest.

However, I think your additional clause is an important element in what you are pointing out and I couldn't agree more
Quote from: rms2
....  that could have developed clades parallel to L21.
 It is very important as what we are looking for who is might be closely related to L21.

This is speculative logic on my part, but I think U152 is most important because his diversity is highest. He appears to be eldest brother. The father is more likely to have been from a location closest to the eldest son. That doesn't mean L21 is from that location, but that provides a certain probability gravity pulling L21's probable origin closer that direction.  L21 and U152 aren't that much different in age and U152 is the eldest brother.

U152 is clearly not from England.  U152 is clearly not from Spain. At least, that's what I think. That reduces the odds that L21 is from those places. I wouldn't rule those out yet for L21, though.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Richard Rocca on October 05, 2012, 09:06:19 AM
It is well to keep in mind that our English P312* folks are only temporarily P312* pending the discovery of one or more new SNPs. For their presence to support an Isles origin for L21, one would have to demonstrate some sort of connection between them and L21, like a shared marker between P312 and L21.

The Continent is the real matrix of P312 and its offspring and so is the likeliest place to look for the birthplace of L21.

For France and Iberia to surpass the Isles in variance, even just a little, given the overwhelming number of British Isles L21 haplotypes available relative to those from the Continent, is pretty amazing. The Isles, as isles at the northwestern extremity of Europe, have been on the receiving end of population movement from Europe to a much greater extent than they have provided the reverse. L21 haplotype variance in the Isles is likely relatively high because of that fact: they have received L21 from a number of sources and not just one.

That's why haplotype variance is tricky and cannot be relied on to indicate origin in and of itself. It has to be viewed in the context of other types of evidence, like that from archaeology, anthropology, history, and linguistics.

While I don't necessarily think L21 was born in the Isles, I do think that the higher diversity there is a product of its arrival shortly after its birth. By definition, islands have always been harder to conquer and while the isles have seen their fair share of invaders, the amount of waves is probably much less than in places like France.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 05, 2012, 09:15:43 AM
Richard, RMS2 and Jean have all made the point that multiple waves into Iberia of L21 could have made it a pooling point and therefore the higher diversity can be accounted for in that way.

As I mentioned in a prior post, the number of long haplotypes we have is too low, and even by just adding 10 (20 to 30) the variance of Spain dropped below France (although the differences are insignificant.)  Ulitimately, with more and more data, I think France's variance relative to Iberia's will increase. I just say that because we don't see a lot of different types (varieties) in Iberia. That's just anecdotal observation.

I think this information, might be the most important news of all.  L21 seems top heavy in Spain...  to the French side.
... According to Martinez-Cruz et al. 2012, L21 is much more important in the Franco-Cantabrian areas...


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: samIsaack on October 05, 2012, 09:23:48 AM
It is well to keep in mind that our English P312* folks are only temporarily P312* pending the discovery of one or more new SNPs. For their presence to support an Isles origin for L21, one would have to demonstrate some sort of connection between them and L21, like a shared marker between P312 and L21....

I agree a with what you are saying above.  You brought a P312* rationale into the discussion in this earlier post below.

I don't think it's likely that L21 was born in the Isles. That would mean its immediate antecedent went there as P312*, and we just don't see that much P312* in the Isles that could have developed clades parallel to L21.

P312* folks are brothers to L21 so where they are found is a consideration. Unfortunately, we do not know which P312* are closer related to L21.

U152, DF27, L238 and DF19 are also brothers to L21 along with P312*. From what we know, none is more closely related to the other than to another. Therefore, we should consider the placement of all the brothers. P312* (modern P312* that is) is no more important than the rest.

However, I think your additional clause is an important element in what you are pointing out and I couldn't agree more
Quote from: rms2
....  that could have developed clades parallel to L21.
 It is very important as what we are looking for who is might be closely related to L21.

This is speculative logic on my part, but I think U152 is most important because his diversity is highest. He appears to be eldest brother. The father is more likely to have been from a location closest to the eldest son. That doesn't mean L21 is from that location, but that provides a certain probability gravity pulling L21's probable origin closer that direction.  L21 and U152 aren't that much different in age and U152 is the eldest brother.

U152 is clearly not from England.  U152 is clearly not from Spain. At least, that's what I think. That reduces the odds that L21 is from those places. I wouldn't rule them out yet, though.

I'd look to DF27 instead of U152. DF27 and L21 from what I gather, are closer in age and have a heavier Atlantic distribution.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Richard Rocca on October 05, 2012, 09:51:28 AM
I'd look to DF27 instead of U152. DF27 and L21 from what I gather, are closer in age and have a heavier Atlantic distribution.

Well, we should be looking at U152 just because of how awesome it is (LOL)!

No seriously, I agree Sam. The history of L21 is no doubt more closely tied to French DF27 than it is to U152.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 05, 2012, 10:37:48 AM
I'd look to DF27 instead of U152. DF27 and L21 from what I gather, are closer in age and have a heavier Atlantic distribution.

Well, we should be looking at U152 just because of how awesome it is (LOL)!

No seriously, I agree Sam. The history of L21 is no doubt more closely tied to French DF27 than it is to U152.

Very well could be. I can't really tell if DF27 is as old as U152. I don't think so. It may be as old as L21, though. I wish the continental, particularly eastern, P312* was better tested for DF27.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mark Jost on October 05, 2012, 11:39:13 AM
It seems to me that it is very possible that the subclades under P312 may have been all from one geographical area and, if we assume a young age (less than 30 yrs old) of first birth event causing a lower chance of mutations. U152 is also something to be considered.

To show some basic age info that would explain a massive Growth Spurt had to have occurred within a small number of generations with only one Modal change in CDYb that even isnt used to calculate Ages in the Age Estimator engine I use.

The number of generations between P312 and L21 appears to be small at around 14 Generations using Busby's Data.

N=717 Busby 15 STR x389i S116(P312) ALL Hts (no multi-copy except 389b)
Gen= 127.1


I had a set of 67 Marker HTs from last July Edit: 'but I reran in the latest Age Estimator' (not using 17 multi-copy markers)
N=976 P312 xU152   Generation Age = 121.1 One mutation difference of CDYb=38

N=584 U152 All   Generations Age = 123.7  Has CDYb=37

From Mike's latest Oct Spreadsheet, likewise is small between L21 and DF13 at 111 marker level there is only 3.4 generations difference with a modal change on one STR allele value from CDYb 38 to 39. My manual calculation of years per mutation is about 103 years but with variance it could be 113.3 generations Max difference. Only the sum of variance divided by the sum of mutation rate affected age data.

Founder's Age at 30 years per gen.

Generations   
L21 N=1020    113.6
DF13 N=548   110.1

Diff
Generations     YBP   Max
3.4   103.2   113.4      


MJost


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 05, 2012, 12:09:31 PM
I think the most telling thing is that the per head or percentage of L21xDF13 in the Celtic fringe of the isles is pracrtically nil while in France it was a respectable sized minority.  To me it looks like the pre-Germanic population of the isles was a DF13 subset of a continental group. 

The fact that what L21XDF13 and true P312** in the isles is in England and not the Celtic fringe is interesting.  My primary suspicion is that it is late and most likely Norman in origin. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 05, 2012, 12:14:15 PM
I think the most telling thing is that the per head or percentage of L21xDF13 in the Celtic fringe of the isles is pracrtically nil while in France it was a respectable sized minority.  To me it looks like the pre-Germanic population of the isles was a DF13 subset of a continental group. 

The fact that what L21XDF13 and true P312** in the isles is in England and not the Celtic fringe is interesting.  My primary suspicion is that it is late and most likely Norman in origin. 

I think this is possible, but almost anybody that thinks they are slightly different in the Isles thinks they are Norman. We can attribute a lot of things to the Normans.  They may have been very, very mixed by the time they arrived as Anglo-Normans et al, including the Bretons, Flemish, etc.  It doesn't mean that some of these things aren't Norman, I just don't know it helps us at all.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Bren123 on October 05, 2012, 12:19:37 PM
I'd look to DF27 instead of U152. DF27 and L21 from what I gather, are closer in age and have a heavier Atlantic distribution.

Well, we should be looking at U152 just because of how awesome it is (LOL)!

No seriously, I agree Sam. The history of L21 is no doubt more closely tied to French DF27 than it is to U152.

Very well could be. I can't really tell if DF27 is as old as U152. I don't think so. It may be as old as L21, though. I wish the continental, particularly eastern, P312* was better tested for DF27.

What is the estimated age of R-U152?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: samIsaack on October 05, 2012, 06:00:39 PM
I'd look to DF27 instead of U152. DF27 and L21 from what I gather, are closer in age and have a heavier Atlantic distribution.

Well, we should be looking at U152 just because of how awesome it is (LOL)!

No seriously, I agree Sam. The history of L21 is no doubt more closely tied to French DF27 than it is to U152.

It is awesome! I wish it was discussed more too. Nothing against the L21 guys, but it gets a bit boring reading about how Celtic/Irish you all are :)


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: samIsaack on October 05, 2012, 06:08:15 PM
I'd look to DF27 instead of U152. DF27 and L21 from what I gather, are closer in age and have a heavier Atlantic distribution.

Well, we should be looking at U152 just because of how awesome it is (LOL)!

No seriously, I agree Sam. The history of L21 is no doubt more closely tied to French DF27 than it is to U152.

Very well could be. I can't really tell if DF27 is as old as U152. I don't think so. It may be as old as L21, though. I wish the continental, particularly eastern, P312* was better tested for DF27.

I thought it was generally agreed upon that DF27 was older than L21 by way of its younger subclades being at least as old as L21?



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 05, 2012, 09:26:10 PM
I'd look to DF27 instead of U152. DF27 and L21 from what I gather, are closer in age and have a heavier Atlantic distribution.

Well, we should be looking at U152 just because of how awesome it is (LOL)!

No seriously, I agree Sam. The history of L21 is no doubt more closely tied to French DF27 than it is to U152.

Very well could be. I can't really tell if DF27 is as old as U152. I don't think so. It may be as old as L21, though. I wish the continental, particularly eastern, P312* was better tested for DF27.

I thought it was generally agreed upon that DF27 was older than L21 by way of its younger subclades being at least as old as L21?

I don't know about DF27 being older than L21. I think it is a little more scattered geographically than L21, but we need more DF27 people, or rather P312 undifferentiated people to test.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on October 05, 2012, 09:33:50 PM
ir df27 is found in Iberia and Poland could there be a possible Vandal connection for some?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: polako on October 06, 2012, 03:31:27 AM
ir df27 is found in Iberia and Poland could there be a possible Vandal connection for some?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals

It can't, because there's now plenty of evidence that the "migration period" was something of a hoax, specifically in the context of the Germanic migrations.

IBD analyses of modern populations show clearly that Iberia was not affected by migrations from the northwest during the Roman Period (Ralph and Coop 2012).

Formal admixture analyses show the same thing, and indicate that the major movements of Northern Europeans into Iberia took place around 2,000 B.C. (Patterson et al. 2012). These were most likely the proto-Celto-Iberians from Central or West Central Europe.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: princenuadha on October 06, 2012, 04:51:41 AM
Spain does show shared ancestry in NW Europe from 1515 to 2535ya.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: polako on October 06, 2012, 07:19:21 AM
Spain does show shared ancestry in NW Europe from 1515 to 2535ya.

Sure it does, but it's not very impressive, and the authors of the study actually focus on the low IBD sharing between Iberia and Italy with Germanic countries dating to the migration period.

And then, there's this...

Quote
It is important to point out that we are not detecting gene flow from Germanic peoples (Suevi, Vandals, Visigoths) into Spain even though it is known that they migrated into Iberia around 500 A.D. Such migration must have occurred based on the historical record (and perhaps is biasing our admixture date to be too recent), but any accompanying gene flow must have occurred at a lower level than the much earlier flow we have been discussing.

Patterson et al. 2012

So I'd say that the supposed massive Germanic migrations during the migration period are something of a hoax. It seems like the numbers of people involved were significantly smaller than has been suggested by many sources.

The proto-Celto-Iberian migrations (ie. Bell Beaker backflow) were much larger.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jean M on October 06, 2012, 12:04:26 PM
The genetic impact of the Germani was extremely varied by region. The key clue to how many arrived lies in language. Some places acquired a Germanic language, for example the Netherlands, England and Austria. That indicates mass migration. By contrast the Germanic takeover in Iberia just replaced one elite with another. The Visigothic kingdom did not change the language or religion. The Visigoths were hugely outnumbered by their subjects. Hard to say how many modern Iberians might have a little trace of Visigoth. Vanishingly few probably. It is the same picture in Italy.  

This does not make the Migration Period a hoax. (By whom?) Ralph and Coop provide excellent evidence of Slavic expansion at this time. That was mass migration in all cases. Of course the entry of Slavs into Greece did not change the language, but it does seem to have left a significant genetic legacy in northern Greece.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 06, 2012, 12:28:12 PM
... The Visigothic kingdom did not change the language or religion. The Visigoths were hugely outnumbered by their subjects. Hard to say how many modern Iberians might have a little trace of Visigoth. Vanishingly few probably. ...

I agree the Visigoth's genetic impact on Iberia was probably quite limited.

However, I think there was some. My wife grew up in Madrid so I've been to Spain several times. I'll never forget an evening at a "cave" (tavern) just off of Plaza Mayor. We were there early and the owner was there. He sang with an elderly patron and then the owner's family came in. His son and daughter were tall and danced flamenco style.  Super great time. I can't handle sangria but I helped with the wine all I could.

They certainly looked like they could have been characters in the "Sound of Music." I was expecting their name to be "Von" something or another but they were Spaniards who's family was from there for as long as they knew. Their home was nearby the Plaza.

For the most part, most of the Spaniards seem to view Visigoths, Moors, Celtics, etc. as all extinct peoples. I did find a waiter from Galicia who felt he was a Celt and he was very, very proud of it (... see Sam, even in Spain Celticism is a big deal.) Of course, the Basques are viewed, and view themselves (from who I talked to) as distinct.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: princenuadha on October 06, 2012, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: Jean M
Some places acquired a Germanic language, for example the Netherlands, England and Austria.

And most of Switzerland. People always forget the German Swiss, I makes me sad...

Anyways, isn't there pretty good evidence that the German swiss and the French swiss are pretty genetically distinct, given there extremely close geographical proximity?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 06, 2012, 04:01:03 PM
I read somewhere though that the fall of the Roman Empire barely expanded German at all and most modern Germanic areas had become so before the fall of the Roman borders.  I heard that main exceptions were Britain and Bavaria. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jean M on October 06, 2012, 04:09:55 PM
And most of Switzerland. People always forget the German Swiss, I makes me sad...

I didn't forget. I just didn't want to bore people with a full list, including parts of countries and exceptions within countries (e.g. Cornwall).

Quote
Anyways, isn't there pretty good evidence that the German swiss and the French swiss are pretty genetically distinct, given there extremely close geographical proximity?

Yes. But if we get into this, we will wander even further from the topic of Iberian L21. :)



Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jean M on October 06, 2012, 04:18:03 PM
I read somewhere though that the fall of the Roman Empire barely expanded German at all and most modern Germanic areas had become so before the fall of the Roman borders.  I heard that main exceptions were Britain and Bavaria. 

Dragging the subject firmly away from Bavaria and back to Iberia, IALEM did mention some Germani in Iberia before the Post-Roman period. Now I have forgotten the reference he gave me. Seemed very surprising.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 06, 2012, 04:28:08 PM
I read somewhere though that the fall of the Roman Empire barely expanded German at all and most modern Germanic areas had become so before the fall of the Roman borders.  I heard that main exceptions were Britain and Bavaria. 

Dragging the subject firmly away from Bavaria and back to Iberia, IALEM did mention some Germani in Iberia before the Post-Roman period. Now I have forgotten the reference he gave me. Seemed very surprising.

Yeah I recall that too from books going back a long long time.  I thought it was at one time considered that the Germani tribe were actually Celtic.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jean M on October 06, 2012, 04:32:37 PM
Yeah I recall that too from books going back a long long time.  I thought it was at one time considered that the Germani tribe were actually Celtic.

That would make sense I suppose. You do get coincidences of ethnonyms.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 06, 2012, 04:42:33 PM
Yeah I recall that too from books going back a long long time.  I thought it was at one time considered that the Germani tribe were actually Celtic.

That would make sense I suppose. You do get coincidences of ethnonyms.

Even googling I am not finding much about it.  I have definately seen this Iberian Peninsula Germani on tribal maps in books in the past.  I think too it was southern Iberia somewhere.  SE Iberia rings a bell.  I think some speculation about the Belgae was made but my memory if foggy on this. 


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on October 06, 2012, 04:43:59 PM
The Vandals were not Goths and are supposedly from the Poland area..while the Goths were thought to have originated in Scandinavian.

The later Moors who ruled Spain for hundreds of years were expelled by a mix of people including Normans and Franks. The Franks originated east of France, and with conquest they ruled much of western Europe from France to Italy, including Switzerland.

Perhaps the Moors were a hoax also?


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: Jean M on October 06, 2012, 08:36:56 PM
The Vandals were not Goths

I know. The Vandals got to Iberia first, but were ejected by the Visigoths.


Title: Re: Iberian R-L21*
Post by: German C on July 04, 2017, 04:49:58 PM
I recently received a report from my grandfather, Nicolas Guillen, from Panticosa, Huesca in Aragon and his haplotype is L21. I wonder if anybody else in this forum has any other information about the haplotypes of Guillen or of the north of Aragon.

Thanks,

German