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Title: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on November 27, 2008, 10:56:13 AM
Thus far there are three German R-L21*s that I know about:

1) Lurz - Placemark 1 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below

2) Krueger - Placemark 34 on the R-L21* Map

3) Marth - Placemark 37 on the R-L21* Map

We have a few members of German descent in the R-P312 and Subclades Project presently awaiting L21 results. Hopefully all or at least some of them will be L21+.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: secherbernard on November 27, 2008, 11:41:31 AM
On the map only one is german, the two others are from poland and romania.
Is the point on the map corresponding to their oldest known paternal ancester?
If yes, why do you say there are german?

Bernard


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on November 28, 2008, 06:40:00 AM
On the map only one is german, the two others are from poland and romania.
Is the point on the map corresponding to their oldest known paternal ancester?
If yes, why do you say there are german?

Bernard

Krueger's ancestor was born in what was once Germany but is now part of Poland. His ancestry is ethnic German. We have another member whose ancestor came from the same area who is also German, Mannigel. A border that shifted after World War II does not change Krueger's ancestor from German to Polish.

Dr. Krahn's ancestor, surname Lurz, belonged to a group of Germans who moved to Romania. He is an ethnic German, too, and it would be inaccurate to characterize him as a "Romanian." The group to which Dr. Krahn's ancestor belonged maintained its German language and customs and married amongst themselves. They did not assimilate with the surrounding Romanian people.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on November 28, 2008, 09:13:39 PM
I used to have a neighbor of Romanian German origin. She always maintained they referred to themselves as "Saxons" rather than Germans. I don't know how accurate the identification was.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 20, 2008, 01:48:25 PM
Of the ten Germans I know of who have L21 results - and I am counting Zenker, Mannigel, Krueger and Lurz as Germans, despite their locations on the maps - five are L21+:

1. Hammann (GG3ZW)
2. Marth (6PF58)
3. Kepler (T9UTE)
4. Krueger (No YSearch ID yet)
5. Lurz (6C3CZ)

Ten is a small sample size, but it's all we've got for now. Anyway, L21+ is currently running at 50% of the R-P312 (X M153, SRY2627, M222, U152) in Germany, which is about the same rate it's running in England.

If we add Meili, a Swiss-German, then 6 of 11 are L21+.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on December 20, 2008, 03:14:56 PM
We just added another German L21+ a few minutes ago: Fix, who traces his ancestry to Bundenbach, near Wiesbaden in Western Germany.

He is in our "Unassigned Members" category right now because he is still waiting on an M222 result.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 06, 2009, 08:54:33 AM
We have added another German R-L21* to the project, surname Wigand. He traces his most distant y ancestor to Wuerzburg in Bavaria, which, interestingly, was the site of a Celtic settlement and hillfort dated to at least 1,000 BC.

He is represented by Placemark 80 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below and also on our project's "Results" page (second map).

I could be wrong, but I think we are getting enough Germans who are L21+ that it's becoming difficult to chalk them all up to errant Brits, Irish and Scots.

And an L21+ whose ancestor came from the site of a Celtic hillfort and settlement dated to 1,000 BC? I think Holmes and Watson (or Crick and Watson) would call that a clue.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Chuck Blandford on January 06, 2009, 03:39:59 PM
This looks to me like western Germany Halstat Celt which I think fits nicely.  Cunliff has identified remains of the Hallstat in this area and the language connection to Ireland fits.  I do not think the Halstat Celts extended to the norther coast of Germany which seems empty (for now) of L21 but the P Celt evidence in Gaul is clear at least in Brittany.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 08, 2009, 09:47:49 PM
Cunliffe, in his book, The Ancient Celts, has Würzburg listed on one of the maps near the back of the book (p. 301) as a seat of Celtic nobility.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Chuck Blandford on January 09, 2009, 05:58:52 PM
In reading Cunliffe, I do not get the impression he felt the Atlantic Crescent was a significant migration route.  I think he saw it as primarily a trade route, stimulated by metal trade, that led to cultural exchange and included commonality in language, certain artifacts etc.  The Celts certainly were a main player in this.  However, the migration of L21+ could follow a totally different route, that is, the central Europe route to the British Isles.  So the L21+ population of the British Isles could have facilitated the commerce between Ireland, south western England, coastal France and Iberia and spread Celtic ethnicity.  But, right now, I sure like the Hallstatt groups of western Germany as at least an intermediate point in L21+ movement toward the British Isles.  The archeological findings show very significant remains there.       


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 09, 2009, 10:42:21 PM
Very true.

We had another German go L21+ today: Wolken, whose ancestor came from Esens in Ostfriesland.

He's still waiting on an M222 verdict, so for now he remains in our "Unassigned Members" category.

Fix, whom I mentioned earlier above, whose ancestor came from Bundenbach, has gone M222- and so is R-L21*.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 23, 2009, 09:36:37 PM
Very true.

We had another German go L21+ today: Wolken, whose ancestor came from Esens in Ostfriesland.

He's still waiting on an M222 verdict, so for now he remains in our "Unassigned Members" category.

Fix, whom I mentioned earlier above, whose ancestor came from Bundenbach, has gone M222- and so is R-L21*.

Wolken got his M222- verdict and thus is R-L21*.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 23, 2009, 10:57:25 PM
We just added another German R-L21*: Bronk, placemark 97 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 25, 2009, 10:01:31 PM
I neglected to mention a new German R-L21* result that came in on Friday evening because he hadn't yet answered my email about his most distant y ancestor.

Anyway, the surname is Schneider, from Rheinland-Pfalz, Placemark 107 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below.

He's in the R-P312 and Subclades Project but hasn't yet joined the R-L21 Plus Project (I'm encouraging him to do so).


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 27, 2009, 08:45:07 AM
I neglected to mention a new German R-L21* result that came in on Friday evening because he hadn't yet answered my email about his most distant y ancestor.

Anyway, the surname is Schneider, from Rheinland-Pfalz, Placemark 107 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below.

He's in the R-P312 and Subclades Project but hasn't yet joined the R-L21 Plus Project (I'm encouraging him to do so).

Okay, he joined the R-L21 Plus Project, too.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 28, 2009, 07:40:54 AM
Here is a breakdown of our German R-L21* (L21+) project members, by Land (state), south to north:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland


If I included Meili (a German Swiss from Zürich) in the group that would bring the total to 11.

Hopefully I haven't left anyone out.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on February 20, 2009, 08:24:09 PM
We added a new German R-L21* to the list today: Hannold (original spelling possibly Hanold).

His ancestor's exact birthplace in Germany is unknown for now.

The World Names Profiler shows that Hanold is most common in Baden-Württemberg, Bayern, Sachsen-Anhalt, Brandenburg, Berlin, and Schleswig-Holstein.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 06, 2009, 10:14:50 PM
We added a new German R-L21* to the R-L21 Plus Project today: ancestral surname Puderbach from Niederraden in Rheinland-Pfalz near the Luxembourg border.

So here's the updated list, including Meili, since he's German-Swiss:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz


Rheinland-Pfalz is maintaining its L21+ lead, with five of the 13 entries.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 07, 2009, 09:49:49 AM
We added a new German R-L21* to the R-L21 Plus Project today: ancestral surname Puderbach from Niederraden in Rheinland-Pfalz near the Luxembourg border.

So here's the updated list, including Meili, since he's German-Swiss:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz


Rheinland-Pfalz is maintaining its L21+ lead, with five of the 13 entries.


I forgot to mention that the Puderbach entry does not appear on the Y Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project just yet. He initially tested with Genebase and got his SNP testing, including L21, through them. He has joined the R-L21 Plus Project, however, through FTDNA's  conversion offer, and is awaiting the results of a 25-marker FTDNA kit. Once those results come in, the Puderbach entry will appear on the project's Y Results page. I have already added him to my R-L21* Map though.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 07, 2009, 11:14:16 AM
There is a Puderbach, Germany (http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/germany/map/m2551351/puderbach.html) in Rheinland-Pfalz just southeast of Bonn and straight north of Koblenz.

Surely the Puderbach family must have taken its name from that town.

The ethnic German minority in Transylvania to which Lurz (#1 above) belongs originated in the Siebengebirge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siebengebirge) of Germany. Interestingly, the Siebengebirge region is located just southeast of Bonn, not too far from where many of our other German R-L21* originated.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on March 15, 2009, 03:41:13 PM
Here's the updated list, as of today.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Germany (exact location unknown)
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on March 16, 2009, 04:22:23 PM
Looks Continental to me!


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2009, 07:58:48 AM
I'm reposting the list to fix Roland's entry. He has joined the R-L21 Plus Project, which has enabled me to find out that his ancestor came from Heidelberg in Baden-Württemberg. He's on the R-L21* Map in the correct spot now.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 02, 2009, 08:33:59 AM
Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).

I think it would be interesting to see if those Irish and Norwegian lineages which are very distinct from each other, have matches in the Pfalz area...


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 02, 2009, 09:02:10 AM
Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).
It is interesting to me that Rhineland-Palatinate (German: Rheinland-Pfalz) is the area just north of the low mountain range of the Black Forest.   If pioneers with herds and wagons were heading west up the upper reaches of the Danube River, they'd run into the Black Forest.  If they turned north and skirted the Black Forest they'd end up in Rhineland-Palatinate and the Rhine River Valley.   Do I have my terrain/geography correct?
.... although we should bear this in mind. The Rhineland-Palatinate of course is a major source out migration that might be all there is to it.



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2009, 08:07:39 PM
Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).

I think it would be interesting to see if those Irish and Norwegian lineages which are very distinct from each other, have matches in the Pfalz area...

I've run the haplotypes in Ysearch and, unless I've missed something, I don't see that.

The ancestor of one of our Finns did have the surname Brandt (he also went by "Brandström"), and Brandt is a pretty well known German surname. But a couple of his closest matches are another Finn, Sutinen, and a Hungarian, Porosz.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2009, 08:11:06 PM
Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).
It is interesting to me that Rhineland-Palatinate (German: Rheinland-Pfalz) is the area just north of the low mountain range of the Black Forest.   If pioneers with herds and wagons were heading west up the upper reaches of the Danube River, they'd run into the Black Forest.  If they turned north and skirted the Black Forest they'd end up in Rhineland-Palatinate and the Rhine River Valley.   Do I have my terrain/geography correct?
.... although we should bear this in mind. The Rhineland-Palatinate of course is a major source out migration that might be all there is to it.



You do have your geography right, but recall that the Black Forest is in Baden-Württemberg, and it is a close second to Rheinland-Pfalz when it comes to R-L21*.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Jafety R1b-U152 on April 03, 2009, 07:47:41 AM
The ancestor of one of our Finns did have the surname Brandt (he also went by "Brandström"), and Brandt is a pretty well known German surname. But a couple of his closest matches are another Finn, Sutinen, and a Hungarian, Porosz.

"Porosz" in Hungarian means "Prussian" thus German. Prussia was what is now Brandenburg, Berlin, and now Western Poland + Northeast Poland + Kaliningrad area. However, in 1815, Kingdom of Prussia got the Rhineland as well, so our Hungarian L-21 can easily originate from there...
I have no explanation for Sutinen.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 03, 2009, 10:01:39 AM
Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).
It is interesting to me that Rhineland-Palatinate (German: Rheinland-Pfalz) is the area just north of the low mountain range of the Black Forest.   If pioneers with herds and wagons were heading west up the upper reaches of the Danube River, they'd run into the Black Forest.  If they turned north and skirted the Black Forest they'd end up in Rhineland-Palatinate and the Rhine River Valley.   Do I have my terrain/geography correct?.... 
You do have your geography right, but recall that the Black Forest is in Baden-Württemberg, and it is a close second to Rheinland-Pfalz when it comes to R-L21*.
What I was thinking is that since the Black Forest area looks big, rather that penetrating it and going into Baden-Württemberg in a big way, perhaps some Bell Beaker pioneers moved north and west, skirting the edge of the Black Forest area, which looks like means you are on the margins of Baden-Württermberg.  When you get to the northern edge of the Black Forest it looks like you are in the Rhine River Valley and standing on Rheinland-Palentinate ground.   Perhaps this was a productive agriculture area.  Is that true? 


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 03, 2009, 10:03:09 AM
I'm reposting the list to fix Roland's entry. He has joined the R-L21 Plus Project, which has enabled me to find out that his ancestor came from Heidelberg in Baden-Württemberg. He's on the R-L21* Map in the correct spot now.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland

Do we have Ysearch ID's for these guys?  I'm curious if there are any particular "clustering" patterns that can be picked up.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: chris1 on April 03, 2009, 11:40:20 AM
Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).

I think it would be interesting to see if those Irish and Norwegian lineages which are very distinct from each other, have matches in the Pfalz area...
The ancestor of one of our Finns did have the surname Brandt (he also went by "Brandström"), and Brandt is a pretty well known German surname. But a couple of his closest matches are another Finn, Sutinen, and a Hungarian, Porosz.
I can't find Sutinen on his YSearch matches. Interestingly, Brandt (YSearch TSDMK) also matches many other people:
McDonald, Scotland, genetic distance 5/55 markers.
Campos, Spain gd 3/37
Kenney, Ireland gd 4/37.
McDowell, Ireland gd 4/37
McKenzie, Scotland gd 4/37
Brown, England gd 5/42
MacPherson, Scotland gd 5/37
Lebrija, Scotland 5/37
Robertson, Scotland gd 5/37
Beatty, Ireland 5/37
There are many more who have place of origin unknown. It's a remarkable number of close matches.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 03, 2009, 07:31:55 PM
You have to run him for 25 markers to pick up 25-marker neighbors.

And yes, many L21+ haplotypes are rather typical and WAMHish, with all sorts of neighbors, even some outside the subclade.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 03, 2009, 07:34:10 PM
Do we have Ysearch ID's for these guys?  I'm curious if there are any particular "clustering" patterns that can be picked up.

If you click on the placemarks on the R-L21* Map, balloons with ancestral and YSearch info appear.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 03, 2009, 11:17:22 PM
Sutinen's close matches in Southern Scotland could also be indicative of  historical Norse-Gael settlement there. That could be one relationship to consider.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2009, 07:23:59 AM
I just found out about another German R-L21* in the Ridenour Project, kit 26916, here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RidenourY=DNASurnameProject/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RidenourY=DNASurnameProject/default.aspx?section=yresults)

The most distant ancestor is listed as Ludwig Lewis Widener, born about 1730 in Germany. "Lewis" is just the English version of the German given name Ludwig.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2009, 09:27:22 PM
I just found out about another German R-L21* in the Ridenour Project, kit 26916, here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RidenourY=DNASurnameProject/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RidenourY=DNASurnameProject/default.aspx?section=yresults)

The most distant ancestor is listed as Ludwig Lewis Widener, born about 1730 in Germany. "Lewis" is just the English version of the German given name Ludwig.


This man is also listed on the Widener DNA Project, whose "Background" page goes into more detail, giving the ancestral surname as Weidner and identifying the ship on which the immigrant Ludwig Weidner traveled to North America, etc.

See Roman numeral IV here:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Whitener/default.aspx (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Whitener/default.aspx)

Weidner is a pretty widespread surname in Germany.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 10, 2009, 10:50:01 PM
It's interesting his ancestor migrated to North Carolina from Pennsylvania. My Schaefer lineage (maternal grandfather) settled in Rowan County, NC - my hometown.

I wonder if they knew each other! Lol


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 11, 2009, 08:34:24 AM
It's interesting his ancestor migrated to North Carolina from Pennsylvania. My Schaefer lineage (maternal grandfather) settled in Rowan County, NC - my hometown.

I wonder if they knew each other! Lol


I believe there were quite a few German immigrants who settled in North Carolina.

Anyway, Mr. Widner (ancestral surname Weidner) has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. I have asked him by email if he knows where in Germany his ancestor came from.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 11, 2009, 12:06:45 PM
Time to update the list:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen


#18, Tiedemann, is a new one in YSearch, and he is way up north in Wolken's neck of the woods. I have emailed him and invited him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.

It is interesting that Tiedemann's most distant ancestor came from Heinbockel, and that town's Wappen (Coat of Arms) features a megalithic monument and what appears to be a beaker pot!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Heinbockel.svg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Heinbockel.svg)



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 13, 2009, 06:45:42 PM
Time to update the list:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen


#18, Tiedemann, is a new one in YSearch, and he is way up north in Wolken's neck of the woods. I have emailed him and invited him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.

It is interesting that Tiedemann's most distant ancestor came from Heinbockel, and that town's Wappen (Coat of Arms) features a megalithic monument and what appears to be a beaker pot!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Heinbockel.svg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Heinbockel.svg)




Tiedemann joined the R-L21 Plus Project today.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 15, 2009, 07:16:02 PM
Updating the list to add Kastler (YSearch KG5TR) and Heil (YSearch 8DBHJ). Kastler's ancestor came from Wahlern, Switzerland, and Heil's came from Frankfurt, Germany.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on May 21, 2009, 07:49:05 PM
Another update to add one more: Reininger, whose ancestor came from Stuttgart.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 03, 2009, 08:50:00 PM
A day or two ago I was looking at an R-L21 Plus Project member's y-dna matches. He has a number of exact 12-marker matches with men with German-looking surnames. No big deal: I usually don't take 12-marker matches too seriously. But then I took a look at the Haplotree/My Matches page and discovered that this same man has an exact 12-marker match in FTDNA's database with an R-L21* (R1b1b2a1b5) who lists Germany as his ancestral country of origin.

Since none of the names on the y-dna matches list were known to me, this must be a new German R-L21* who is not yet a member of the project. So I wrote FTDNA and asked them to email the man and invite him to join the project, which they did.

I haven't heard from him yet and I may not ever.

This has happened to me a number of times. I have discovered new R-L21* in Denmark, the Netherlands, Croatia, and now in Germany and have had FTDNA contact them for me. Thus far only two such contacts have actually joined the project, and those were Ammerlaan of the Netherlands and Loncharich of Croatia.

It's frustrating. I dunno, though; maybe this new R-L21* will discover the email from FTDNA in a day or two and join.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 05, 2009, 12:50:30 AM
Another update to add one more: Reininger, whose ancestor came from Stuttgart.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg

I'm not seeing "19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland".  I must be going blind.  What's his kit #?


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on July 05, 2009, 07:17:37 PM
A day or two ago I was looking at an R-L21 Plus Project member's y-dna matches. He has a number of exact 12-marker matches with men with German-looking surnames. No big deal: I usually don't take 12-marker matches too seriously. But then I took a look at the Haplotree/My Matches page and discovered that this same man has an exact 12-marker match in FTDNA's database with an R-L21* (R1b1b2a1b5) who lists Germany as his ancestral country of origin.

Since none of the names on the y-dna matches list were known to me, this must be a new German R-L21* who is not yet a member of the project. So I wrote FTDNA and asked them to email the man and invite him to join the project, which they did.

I haven't heard from him yet and I may not ever.

This has happened to me a number of times. I have discovered new R-L21* in Denmark, the Netherlands, Croatia, and now in Germany and have had FTDNA contact them for me. Thus far only two such contacts have actually joined the project, and those were Ammerlaan of the Netherlands and Loncharich of Croatia.

It's frustrating. I dunno, though; maybe this new R-L21* will discover the email from FTDNA in a day or two and join.
I find it especually frustrating as there are some who are constantly looking for ways to explain away and minize the number and significance of L21 on the continent.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2009, 09:13:06 AM

I'm not seeing "19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland".  I must be going blind.  What's his kit #?


Kastler never joined the project. He is R-L21* and originally had his YSearch entry listed that way (R1b1b2a1b5). After I contacted him by email a couple of times, he changed his entry to "R1b1b2". Guess he decided he did not want to join the project and that by changing his Ysearch entry (KG5TR) no one would bother him about being L21+.



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2009, 01:12:45 PM
I find it especually frustrating as there are some who are constantly looking for ways to explain away and minize the number and significance of L21 on the continent.

Yes, it is very frustrating. Vince Vizachero mentioned recently on Rootsweb that the numbers of test subjects in FTDNA's database with y-dna ancestors from Germany, France, Italy, and Switzerland (he might have added one or two other countries, but I can't recall) together do not equal half of the subjects from the British Isles. It is well to keep that in mind.

By the way, I think our new German R-L21* has joined the R-L21 Plus Project; at least the surname, Sigman, is German. The only problem is that the listed most distant ancestor was born in the USA, so Sigman is with me and so many others in the "Colonial" category.

Spelled Sigmann, the surname is most common in Baden-Württemberg and Rheinland-Pfalz, which are both hotspots for L21, and also in neighboring Alsace in France.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 06, 2009, 10:26:16 PM
I find it especually frustrating as there are some who are constantly looking for ways to explain away and minize the number and significance of L21 on the continent.

Yes, it is very frustrating. Vince Vizachero mentioned recently on Rootsweb that the numbers of test subjects in FTDNA's database with y-dna ancestors from Germany, France, Italy, and Switzerland (he might have added one or two other countries, but I can't recall) together do not equal half of the subjects from the British Isles. It is well to keep that in mind.

By the way, I think our new German R-L21* has joined the R-L21 Plus Project; at least the surname, Sigman, is German. The only problem is that the listed most distant ancestor was born in the USA, so Sigman is with me and so many others in the "Colonial" category.

Spelled Sigmann, the surname is most common in Baden-Württemberg and Rheinland-Pfalz, which are both hotspots for L21, and also in neighboring Alsace in France.
I'm not sure that the FTDNA screens and data columns support it, but what do you think of adding another "column" or category view, "probable surname heritage?" This would not eliminate the genealogical origin, and could be prone to some errors, but everything is.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2009, 11:10:13 PM
I'm not sure that the FTDNA screens and data columns support it, but what do you think of adding another "column" or category view, "probable surname heritage?" This would not eliminate the genealogical origin, and could be prone to some errors, but everything is.

I've thought about doing something like that, but I can't see how I could do it without opening a big can of worms.

It especially occurred to me to do it in the case of guys with solid French surnames (like Chartier and Delahoussaye, for examples) and y-dna ancestors from places like Quebec and Louisiana. They are pretty sure their y-dna immigrant ancestors came from France, but they cannot name the immigrant or his hometown.

But I guess it is probably safest just to stick with what I do now.

There is my case, too, to consider. I can't get my paper trail out of North America, but I have a 65/67 match with a man born in England.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 19, 2009, 12:02:31 PM
Updating the list:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
22. Becker - Rheinland-Pfalz


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 02, 2009, 07:26:45 PM
Updating the list to add a new one.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
22. Becker - Rheinland-Pfalz
23. Immler - Bayern


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 04, 2009, 10:42:27 PM
What would make sense as far as categorizing these German L-21* folks into regions that might have ancestral affinities?

Originally I started thinking the Rhine River Valley and Southern Germany should be a category and then North Germany (along Benelux, Denmark) another and then East Germany another.  I'm not that familiar with the terrain.  I thought these web sites were interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_regions_of_Germany
http://www.discover-germany.info/germany_regions.htm

I'm thinking I should divide Germany's Federal States into the following natural regions or just use the boundaries as the web site above describes:
Nordostdeutsches Tiefland (Northeast German Plain)
Nordwestdeutsches Tiefland (Northwest German Plain)
Westliche Mittelgelbirge (Western Central Uplands)
Ostliche Mittelgelbirge (Eastern Central Uplands)
Sudwestliche Mittelbirge/Stufenland (South German Scarplands)
Alpenvorland (Alpine Foreland and Alps)

It may be useful to cross current national boundaries when looking at affinities. For example, perhaps the West Central Uplands might have some affinities to France-Lorraine and the South Scarplands might be akin to France-Alsace.  Alpine Foreland and the Alps may have a lot in common with Switzerland.

Any ideas?




Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 04, 2009, 11:37:30 PM
Updating the list to add a new one.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
22. Becker - Rheinland-Pfalz
23. Immler - Bayern

At one time I had Kolb YS 79UGE FTDNA 19463 on my list of R-L21*.  Did he never do a deep clade test?


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2009, 08:42:10 AM

At one time I had Kolb YS 79UGE FTDNA 19463 on my list of R-L21*.  Did he never do a deep clade test?


We had a Kolb in the project for awhile (probably he was the same one), but he got an L21- result.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2009, 08:52:23 AM
What would make sense as far as categorizing these German L-21* folks into regions that might have ancestral affinities?

Originally I started thinking the Rhine River Valley and Southern Germany should be a category and then North Germany (along Benelux, Denmark) another and then East Germany another.  I'm not that familiar with the terrain.  I thought these web sites were interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_regions_of_Germany
http://www.discover-germany.info/germany_regions.htm

I'm thinking I should divide Germany's Federal States into the following natural regions or just use the boundaries as the web site above describes:
Nordostdeutsches Tiefland (Northeast German Plain)
Nordwestdeutsches Tiefland (Northwest German Plain)
Westliche Mittelgelbirge (Western Central Uplands)
Ostliche Mittelgelbirge (Eastern Central Uplands)
Sudwestliche Mittelbirge/Stufenland (South German Scarplands)
Alpenvorland (Alpine Foreland and Alps)

It may be useful to cross current national boundaries when looking at affinities. For example, perhaps the West Central Uplands might have some affinities to France-Lorraine and the South Scarplands might be akin to France-Alsace.  Alpine Foreland and the Alps may have a lot in common with Switzerland.

Any ideas?

There is a very basic, three-part division of Germany:

1. Southern Germany - Mountainous Highlands
2. Middle Germany - Rolling Hills
3. North Germany - Flat Plains to the Sea

Those regions also have divided Germany linguistically:

1. Hochdeutsch - literally "High German" (meaning the German spoken in the highlands)
2. Mitteldeutsch - Central German dialects
3. Plattdeutsch - literally "'Flat' or Low German" (meaning the German spoken in the "flat" North)

I don't mean to speak for him, but a friend of mine who is quite knowledgeable has suggested a possible connection between L21 and the LinearBandKeramik culture, which he says shows a pattern of moving up the Rhine but then turning west into Northern France at about the Middle Rhine. He thinks this is the reason we haven't seen any L21 in Belgium yet.

He could be right, but I think L21 will eventually show up in Belgium; it's just a matter of getting a few more Belgians tested for it.

Thus far, however, the basic distribution of L21 does match the LBK path.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 05, 2009, 10:02:03 AM
The theory of the LBK peoples as due to the farmers who escaped the submersion of the Black Sea North shores is very interesting, but thinking to R-L21+ as linked to those people makes us backdate this cluster to 7500 YBP at least and probably before. I agree, having always thought R-L23 much more ancient than many peoples are thinking.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2009, 02:02:41 PM
The theory of the LBK peoples as due to the farmers who escaped the submersion of the Black Sea North shores is very interesting, but thinking to R-L21+ as linked to those people makes us backdate this cluster to 7500 YBP at least and probably before. I agree, having always thought R-L23 much more ancient than many peoples are thinking.

I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 05, 2009, 10:03:57 PM
What would make sense as far as categorizing these German L-21* folks into regions that might have ancestral affinities?
There is a very basic, three-part division of Germany:
1. Southern Germany - Mountainous Highlands
2. Middle Germany - Rolling Hills
3. North Germany - Flat Plains to the Sea

Those regions also have divided Germany linguistically:
1. Hochdeutsch - literally "High German" (meaning the German spoken in the highlands)
2. Mitteldeutsch - Central German dialects
3. Plattdeutsch - literally "'Flat' or Low German" (meaning the German spoken in the "flat" North)
.......
Thanks.   Would the following be a decent classification of the current Federal States into those three major regions?  I admit that Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg cover fairly large areas and may extend beyond "mountainous highlands", but I'm just trying to get something that provides a clear definition.

NORTHERN GERMANY:
Bremen
Schleswig-Holstein 
Hamburg
Lower Saxony
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
Berlin
Brandenburg
Saxony

MIDDLE GERMANY:
North Rhine-Westphalia
Rhineland-Palatinate
Saarland
Hesse
Thuringia
Saxony-Anhalt

SOUTHERN GERMANY:
Baden-Württemberg
Bavaria 


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 05, 2009, 10:32:20 PM
I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.

RMS2,
That's an interesting hypothesis, one that deserves consideration for sure.  Keep in mind that the TMRCA for P312, U152, L21 all arose nearly concurrently.

I had always written off the LBK as the carrier of P312/L21/U152 for two reasons
1) the geographic pattern doesn't fit, i.e. the LBK original great expansion stopped or at least significantly paused at about Paris.  Also LBK never really moved south and west into Iberia where P312, and at least some L21 did.
2) LBK's great expansion was probably over, 4500 BC, before TMRCA of P312/L21/U152
Quote from: Wikipedia
5500–4500 BC (7500-6500 ybp)
The LBK at maximum extent ranged from about the line of the Seine–Oise (Paris Basin) eastward to the line of the Vistula and upper Dniester, and southward to the line of the upper Danube down to the big bend. An extension ran through the Western Bug river valley, leaped to the valley of the Dniester, and swerved southward from the middle Dniester to the lower Danube in eastern Romania, east of the Carpathians
However, LBK did reach Britain at a later point in time.
Quote from: Wikipedia
4400 BC–3300 BC (6400-3300 ybp)
The construction of the earliest earthwork sites in Britain began during the early Neolithic (c.) in the form of long barrows used for communal burial and the first causewayed enclosures, sites which have parallels on the continent.   
Still seems just a little early for the probable TMRCA range but it could fit.

What do you or your friend think might have caused such a large shift from the continent of L21 folks to Britain?      Just bad weather, but was Britain's climate any better 4400 BC-3300BC for farmers?

Or did round barrow (kurgan) digging, copper tool wielding pastoralists run them out?

Remember, P312/L21/U152 et al form a very bushy tree so their population must have exploded at some point.  It doesn't seem likely to me that their population would have exploded at the same time that they were under climate or invader stress.

I guess a lot hinges on the real age of P312/L21/U152.  No new news there.



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 05, 2009, 10:44:07 PM
I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.
Another key point about the geographic distribution of LBK.  The LBK had little impact on Denmark and northern coasts of Germany and Poland.  These areas reportedly stayed Mesolithic (hunter-gatherer) for a longer period of time… but there appears to be a significant population of L21 in Scandinavia.  It doesn't seem likely that the LBK carried L21 to Scandinavia, unless the L21 were just a people in flight.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/02/eue/ht02eue.htm

I don't know much about climate in Scandinavia.  Was there a period of time during the Neolithic ages when the climate would have been very favorable for farming?


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 06, 2009, 12:54:03 PM

Thanks.   Would the following be a decent classification of the current Federal States into those three major regions?  I admit that Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg cover fairly large areas and may extend beyond "mountainous highlands", but I'm just trying to get something that provides a clear definition.

NORTHERN GERMANY:
Bremen
Schleswig-Holstein 
Hamburg
Lower Saxony
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
Berlin
Brandenburg
Saxony

MIDDLE GERMANY:
North Rhine-Westphalia
Rhineland-Palatinate
Saarland
Hesse
Thuringia
Saxony-Anhalt

SOUTHERN GERMANY:
Baden-Württemberg
Bavaria 


That looks about right, except that I think you would be getting into North Germany in the northern part of North-Rhine Westphalia. But if one wants to put each Land into one of the three basic topographic divisions, then what you have laid out is right.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 06, 2009, 12:59:47 PM
I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.

RMS2,
That's an interesting hypothesis, one that deserves consideration for sure.  Keep in mind that the TMRCA for P312, U152, L21 all arose nearly concurrently.

I had always written off the LBK as the carrier of P312/L21/U152 for two reasons
1) the geographic pattern doesn't fit, i.e. the LBK original great expansion stopped or at least significantly paused at about Paris.  Also LBK never really moved south and west into Iberia where P312, and at least some L21 did.
2) LBK's great expansion was probably over, 4500 BC, before TMRCA of P312/L21/U152
Quote from: Wikipedia
5500–4500 BC (7500-6500 ybp)
The LBK at maximum extent ranged from about the line of the Seine–Oise (Paris Basin) eastward to the line of the Vistula and upper Dniester, and southward to the line of the upper Danube down to the big bend. An extension ran through the Western Bug river valley, leaped to the valley of the Dniester, and swerved southward from the middle Dniester to the lower Danube in eastern Romania, east of the Carpathians
However, LBK did reach Britain at a later point in time.
Quote from: Wikipedia
4400 BC–3300 BC (6400-3300 ybp)
The construction of the earliest earthwork sites in Britain began during the early Neolithic (c.) in the form of long barrows used for communal burial and the first causewayed enclosures, sites which have parallels on the continent.   
Still seems just a little early for the probable TMRCA range but it could fit.

What do you or your friend think might have caused such a large shift from the continent of L21 folks to Britain?      Just bad weather, but was Britain's climate any better 4400 BC-3300BC for farmers?

Or did round barrow (kurgan) digging, copper tool wielding pastoralists run them out?

Remember, P312/L21/U152 et al form a very bushy tree so their population must have exploded at some point.  It doesn't seem likely to me that their population would have exploded at the same time that they were under climate or invader stress.

I guess a lot hinges on the real age of P312/L21/U152.  No new news there.

My friend will have to defend the particulars of his LBK idea. I just mentioned it to toss it out there.

I don't think it's necessary to have the LBK go into Iberia for him to be right, though. Movement into Iberia could have come later, via the Celts, and, besides, there doesn't appear to be much L21 in Iberia.

I still gravitate toward Hubert's ideas.

I also tend to hold the heretical view that R1b1b2 is essentially Indo-European.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 07, 2009, 07:23:20 AM
I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.
Another key point about the geographic distribution of LBK.  The LBK had little impact on Denmark and northern coasts of Germany and Poland.  These areas reportedly stayed Mesolithic (hunter-gatherer) for a longer period of time… but there appears to be a significant population of L21 in Scandinavia.  It doesn't seem likely that the LBK carried L21 to Scandinavia, unless the L21 were just a people in flight.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/02/eue/ht02eue.htm

I don't know much about climate in Scandinavia.  Was there a period of time during the Neolithic ages when the climate would have been very favorable for farming?


The theory that an S116 subclade like L21 represents a mutation that occurred at the western end of the LBK trail does nicely fit both the distributions of clade and the western end of the culture both of which follow the Rhine to its middle reaches then turn sharply west into northern France.  Old maps will show it stopping at Paris but it is now known LBK made it as far as eastern Brittany.  LBK-descended successor cultures would have later expanded into the remainder of coastal northern France and the Low Countries. 

The theory does however have problems in a wider scale.  The main one is the presence of much S116 in non-LBK areas like Iberia, southern France and Italy where the Neolithic was brought by the Cardial culture.   So, there are only two ways that the LBK theory can be maintained, either:

1. S116 must have been present in a culture that was the common root of both LBK and Cardial, perhaps one of the great Balkans early Neolithic cultures and no later than 6000BC. S116 cannot have occurred anywhere west of the Balkans because that is the point where the two cultures parted company and headed west and they did not likely meet again until they both approached the borders of Brittany in NW France 1000 years? later.  L21 on the other hand could have occurred on the LBK trail west, somewhere between the Balkans and the Rhine, a journey that is essentially all along the Danube.   This theory is essentially a version of the pincer movement idea whereby only S116* came along the Med. with Cardial to Italy, Iberia etc while LBK brought a mix of S116* as well as L21, S28 and indeed S21 too through these clades having arisen along the Danube among the S116* folk who had followed that Danubian route west.  One thing is clear.  If L21 did arrive in this period, it was brought by the LBK culture, not the Cardial one.  The distribution you an see on the L21 project amp is very clear.  L21 is very much weighted towards NW Europe and as well as being big in the isles, it seems very likely that L21 lineages are common in northern France and the west and south fringe of Germany.
 
2. Alternatively the (large) presence of S116 clades in Iberia, southern France and Italy must be seen as the result of later movements. 

I would not be too concerned with the lack of LBK as such in the isles or Scandinavia or indeed the presence of L21 in Scandinavia as both the British Isles Early Neolithic and the Funnel Beaker culture of northern continental Europe were at least partly created by intrusions of farmers from LBK- descended post-LBK Neolithic cultures of northern France, the Low countries, Germany etc and would surely have involved intrusion of LBK descended bloodlines, perhaps (if this theory is correct) L21 among them.

Truth is nobody really knows the answer while representative Europe-wide distribution maps of deep clade tested R1b are absent and there is no agreement on y-DNA dating.  Its also true that no single-wave explanation neatly explains all R1b distribution.  For example, while the Early Neolithic theory needs a bit of special pleading to explain the S116 along the Med, equally the large amount of L21 in Scandinavia does not especially well link with the alternative beaker theory without similar special pleading. 


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 07, 2009, 07:34:09 AM
I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.
Another key point about the geographic distribution of LBK.  The LBK had little impact on Denmark and northern coasts of Germany and Poland.  These areas reportedly stayed Mesolithic (hunter-gatherer) for a longer period of time… but there appears to be a significant population of L21 in Scandinavia.  It doesn't seem likely that the LBK carried L21 to Scandinavia, unless the L21 were just a people in flight.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/02/eue/ht02eue.htm

I don't know much about climate in Scandinavia.  Was there a period of time during the Neolithic ages when the climate would have been very favorable for farming?


 

I would think that founder effect as a small group crossed the channel would be the most likely explanation for high L21 in the isles.  However, I think it should be noted that the L21 numbers in Northern France, where the groups that crossed to the isles almost certainly came from, is apparently very high indeed and it strikes me that it may actually be higher there than in parts of England directly across the channel.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2009, 05:14:58 PM
Updating the list to add a new one.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
22. Becker - Rheinland-Pfalz
23. Immler - Bayern
24. Haupt - Bayern


Haupt has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. Unfortunately, FTDNA's IT department is updating our web site right now, so I can't get into the proper member subgroupings to move Haupt into the Germany category. When they are finished, I will move him into that category.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 15, 2009, 07:30:09 PM
L21 Germany can be defined as Germany west of the Rhine as far south as the junction at the city of Mainz.  Then from that point the Main River forms the L21 boundary with all L21 falling to the south of it.  So you can define the L21 area of Germany as the area that is west of the Rhine and/or south of the Main.  That L21 area as defined by those river bounfaries is identical to the combined area of the Rhineland Pfalz (Palatinate), Baden-Wurtemberg and Bavaria.  

That corresponds astonishingly well with the area of Germany with the most certain and longest lasting Celtic archaeological, historical and linguistic traces.   In contrast, the area that is both to the east of the Rhine and to the north of the Main river sees traces of Celtic culture rapidly decrease although there is certainly not a totally sharp border and there was an intermediate zone in areas like Thuringia which may have been Celtic once but where hegemony was possibly lost to Germanic tribes somewhat earlier.  

The same area is also high in S28 as far as I understand  It is hard not to conclude those two sibling or close cousin S116 clades of near identical age were a big element of the Celitc male lines of the area although I suspect they arrived in the Neolithic. It will be interesting some day to see if the proposed north-south divide in Germany between the S28 (to which we can now add L21) on the one hand and S21 on the other  stands up as an echo of the (proto?) Celtic-Germanic boundary in Germany.  


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 15, 2009, 08:20:39 PM
I forgot to add that later the Romans helped to preserve a roughly similar boundary between the (Romanised) Celts of western and southern Germany as discussed in my last post above and the Germanic tribes.  The limes preserved much of the German Celtic heartland but by a desire to linki the Rhine and Danube by the Limes they cut out the northern part of Bavaria and little bits of Rhineland Pflaz and Baden Wurtemberg, thus slighly shrinking the non-Germanic area of Germany.  The Roman border here would obviously have had a further effect in preserving the old Celtic population (albeit Romanised) within it, certainly buyng them several centuries from German invasion, while at the same time ceding the area beyond the limes to the Germans which probably led to greater dilution of the old Celtic lines by Germanic ones there.   

This page contains a very useful map of the limes which shows the way most (although not all) of the L21 and Celtic part of Germany was included inside the Roman Limes. 
 
 http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/430/multiple=1&unique_number=499


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2009, 02:06:33 PM
Haupt was able to update his most distant ancestor information, so I have edited my last post to include it. It moves his placemark on the R-L21* European Continent Map from Windesheim in Rheinland-Pfalz to Pappenheim in Bayern (Bavaria). He is our fourth Bavarian now, so we are starting to move out a bit toward the east and away from the Rhine.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mark Jost on September 16, 2009, 07:58:43 PM
Other than the two who are at the north end of Germany Tiedemann - Niedersachsen and Wolken - Ostfriesland, most are in the SW Germany area, same area of the of the Roman defence line Limes.

http://www.limes-in-deutschland.de/kastelle.html


I forgot to add that later the Romans helped to preserve a roughly similar boundary between the (Romanised) Celts of western and southern Germany as discussed in my last post above and the Germanic tribes.  The limes preserved much of the German Celtic heartland but by a desire to linki the Rhine and Danube by the Limes they cut out the northern part of Bavaria and little bits of Rhineland Pflaz and Baden Wurtemberg, thus slighly shrinking the non-Germanic area of Germany.  The Roman border here would obviously have had a further effect in preserving the old Celtic population (albeit Romanised) within it, certainly buyng them several centuries from German invasion, while at the same time ceding the area beyond the limes to the Germans which probably led to greater dilution of the old Celtic lines by Germanic ones there.   

This page contains a very useful map of the limes which shows the way most (although not all) of the L21 and Celtic part of Germany was included inside the Roman Limes. 
 
 http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/430/multiple=1&unique_number=499


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2009, 08:27:46 PM
Most of them are well west of the limes, in other words, inside the old province of Germania Superior. A couple of them, Immler and Haupt, are down near the Danube (Donau) in Raetia, and a couple, Wigand and Müller, are well east of the Roman limes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Karte_limes.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Karte_limes.jpg)

Krüger's ancestor came from Posen, which is modern Poznan, Poland.

Of course, Tiedemann and Wolken, whose ancestors came from Niedersachsen and Ostfriesland (in modern Niedersachsen) respectively, were mentioned. Interestingly, Tiedemann's ancestor came from Heinbockel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinbockel), home to megalithic monuments and beaker artifacts.

Take a look at Heinbockel's coat of arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Heinbockel.svg).



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 17, 2009, 06:05:15 AM
Here is another Limes map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Limes_Germanicus_2nd_c.png

What strikes me is the relativley modest amount of time that this was a Roman frontier. Before and after the brief phase where this was the border, the emperial border here was just the Rhine and Danube rivers with the wedge in between abandoned.  I know there are some who think the Roman soldiers should leave big genetic impacts and even some people who try and link L21 with the German Limes but if that was true then why are there not similar huge impacts along Hadrian's Wall in Britain? 

It is also worth noting that the really major concnetratoin of L21 detected to date in the Rhineland Palatinate which is mainly west of the Rhine The German L21 concentration falls of both sides of the Limes. Also, the epicentre of the concentration is in Rhineland Pfalz which was both well west of the Limes and across the Middle Rhine from it.  So, it is fairly ridiculous to try and link the L21 there and the Limes.  The Rhineland Pfalz mainly remained within the empire even when the boundary moved from the Limes back to the natural bounday of the Rhine.  So, it seems to me that L21 pre-dated the Limes and that its most major German concentration was well west of the Limes.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 17, 2009, 07:11:24 AM
 .


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2009, 07:23:24 AM
Well, here is something else to help us "think outside the limes" (to adapt a tiresome cliche), a new German R-L21* (#25) to add to the list:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
22. Becker - Rheinland-Pfalz
23. Immler - Bayern
24. Haupt - Bayern
25. Althoff - Nordrhein-Westfalen


Herr Althoff is an actual German citizen (you can tell by his E-series kit number), not an American or a Canadian with German ancestry (not that there is anything wrong with being an American or a Canadian with German ancestry). His most distant y-dna ancestor came from North Germany, from Darfeld, Rosendahl, to be precise.

It's interesting because, if you recall (and if I recall correctly), Hubert said the Goidels came mostly from Nordrhein-Westfalen.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 17, 2009, 08:12:31 AM
The more I cross compare the project maps, the more the idea that the large concentration of all the main R1b1b2 clades along the Rhine looks like its down to new-world immigration patterns from Germany while much of the rest of the country looks much more lightlly sampled.  So it makes you wonder if guys like Althoff are really just strays/outliers from the main L21 block to the south or its just sampling issues.  I would guess that the truth lies in between. 


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 17, 2009, 08:19:01 AM
I have to say, although they tend to be from the same area of Germany, the flow of German and German heritage L21 is pretty impressive and in huge contrast to France (where L21 is however actually much more common) and of course to Spain, Italy etc where this is probably more to do with it actually being relatively uncommon. 


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2009, 08:20:02 AM
The more I cross compare the project maps, the more the idea that the large concentration of all the main R1b1b2 clades along the Rhine looks like its down to new-world immigration patterns from Germany while much of the rest of the country looks much more lightlly sampled.  So it makes you wonder if guys like Althoff are really just strays/outliers from the main L21 block to the south or its just sampling issues.  I would guess that the truth lies in between. 

If he had more than 12 markers, it would be a lot easier to try to figure that out.

Personally, I think L21 will be more frequent in Western Germany than elsewhere in Germany, but I think we will see more of it in places like Nordrhein-Westfalen that are northwestern that cannot be attributed to movement within Germany from the Southwest.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 17, 2009, 08:40:14 AM
I suspect you are right and simply because STRs seem to imply that S21 is very high in north Germany.  

I just thought of something.  The one area that is clearly not undersampled is the Rhineland area so any absence or relative lack there is meaningful.  By definition, all S116* people must have done the L21 test and of course all S116 tested ror L21 had the opportunity to be shown to be S116* if they were.  So, I think it can be stated that low S116*relative to L21 (4 agaisnt 16) is a genuine feature of south-west Germany and is not a result of sampling issues.  That feature very much makes it comparable with the (pre-Norman) Irish and is the reverse of what is found in Iberia.  

So, as well as L21 presence, relative S116* absence is another thing that  links the Celtic fringe of the isles and the central European Celtic heartland and divides it from Iberia and Italy.  Its a shame that before all this was discovered that the revisionist idea of genetic contrast between the Atlantic Celts and the Central European Celts or Gauls got so much publicity because it is now looking to be completley wrong.  That was all based on poor deduction from STRs but SNPs now show that the Atlantic Celtis are very much not a grouping with the isles, French and west German Celtis looking more like a grouping, which is far more in line with archaeologucal  expectations.  Even if you just look at the Iron Age, the British and Irish material where it shows exotic influences all relates to the isles, Gaul and the Rhineland.  


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 17, 2009, 08:46:04 AM
;


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mark Jost on September 17, 2009, 08:58:42 AM
So which came first? Trilithons along the Rhine?

Interestingly, Tiedemann's ancestor came from Heinbockel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinbockel), home to megalithic monuments and beaker artifacts.

Take a look at Heinbockel's coat of arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Heinbockel.svg).




Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mark Jost on September 17, 2009, 09:21:35 AM
I create combinded Google maps and created the R-L21/P-312/U152 overlayed back just over three months ago for reference.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/muv3af



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 17, 2009, 10:28:30 AM
..... Interestingly, Tiedemann's ancestor came from Heinbockel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinbockel), home to megalithic monuments and beaker artifacts.

Take a look at Heinbockel's coat of arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Heinbockel.svg).
Is someone trying to tell us something?


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 17, 2009, 10:35:52 AM
I create combinded Google maps and created the R-L21/P-312/U152 overlayed back just over three months ago for reference.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/muv3af



An up to date map like that combining the main R1b clades would be useful although your map doesnt totally tally with what I remember from looking at the individual project maps.  At one stage there was a map showing all the S116 clades but I dont think it was kept up to date.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 17, 2009, 10:43:15 AM
Yes the family crest is interesting...although do remember that the only Neolithic stone circle with lintels across the top is stonehenge itself! You do of course get them later in Greece, Egypt etc but they were much later than stonehenge.  They do however think that Neolithic timber circles in the NW of Europe may have had timber lintels. 


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mark Jost on September 17, 2009, 10:48:39 AM
Only those projects that have Google pin maps created can be combined and thus mine is limited to that fact.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2009, 12:43:09 PM
The megaliths in Heinbockel - which is nowhere near the Rhine - are quite small relative to Stonehenge and mark round barrow Beaker graves like the round barrows in Britain. There were some photos on the internet, as I recall. I'll look for them again when I get time.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2009, 12:55:09 PM
An up to date map like that combining the main R1b clades would be useful although your map doesnt totally tally with what I remember from looking at the individual project maps.  At one stage there was a map showing all the S116 clades but I dont think it was kept up to date.

One problem in attempting such a map is that Google limits us to 200 placemarks per map page.

We need some good map-making software.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2009, 02:21:08 PM
I suspect you are right and simply because STRs seem to imply that S21 is very high in north Germany.  

I just thought of something.  The one area that is clearly not undersampled is the Rhineland area so any absence or relative lack there is meaningful.  By definition, all S116* people must have done the L21 test and of course all S116 tested ror L21 had the opportunity to be shown to be S116* if they were.  So, I think it can be stated that low S116*relative to L21 (4 agaisnt 16) is a genuine feature of south-west Germany and is not a result of sampling issues.  That feature very much makes it comparable with the (pre-Norman) Irish and is the reverse of what is found in Iberia.

I agree. Any way one slices it, it seems L21 is well represented in SW Germany.  

So, as well as L21 presence, relative S116* absence is another thing that  links the Celtic fringe of the isles and the central European Celtic heartland and divides it from Iberia and Italy.  Its a shame that before all this was discovered that the revisionist idea of genetic contrast between the Atlantic Celts and the Central European Celts or Gauls got so much publicity because it is now looking to be completley wrong.  That was all based on poor deduction from STRs but SNPs now show that the Atlantic Celtis are very much not a grouping with the isles, French and west German Celtis looking more like a grouping, which is far more in line with archaeologucal  expectations.  Even if you just look at the Iron Age, the British and Irish material where it shows exotic influences all relates to the isles, Gaul and the Rhineland.  

I really agree with that. A lot of damage has been done already by the whole "Celto-Sceptic" thing and even just through the whole "Atlantic Facade" idea. Now people have gotten it into their heads that the Irish are just Basques who drink Guinness and not really Celts at all. It's going to be tough overcoming all that *stuff*.

Now it seems that genetics is vindicating some of the older scholars, at least to the extent that it seems to show an intrusive male presence that was probably responsible for the introduction of Celtic language and culture in the British Isles.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on September 17, 2009, 03:57:47 PM
You know, I got into the whole genetic genealogy thing right at the time you were head-to-head with that Faux fellow. What I took from that is the haughty attitude people displayed about their own ancestry.

Just thinking about it really makes me tick, because it seems some people want to classify themselves as "superior" in some sort or fashion, and genetics is one tactic they use. It happened with the discovery of U106 (still happens with that bunch) and then U152 and the Faux cadre picked up on the outlying majority of R1b that didn't belong to such a clade were the descendents of slaves.

That Oppenheimer crap needs to be reassigned to the fiction category in the library.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2009, 08:36:49 PM
You know, I got into the whole genetic genealogy thing right at the time you were head-to-head with that Faux fellow. What I took from that is the haughty attitude people displayed about their own ancestry.

Just thinking about it really makes me tick, because it seems some people want to classify themselves as "superior" in some sort or fashion, and genetics is one tactic they use. It happened with the discovery of U106 (still happens with that bunch) and then U152 and the Faux cadre picked up on the outlying majority of R1b that didn't belong to such a clade were the descendents of slaves.

That Oppenheimer crap needs to be reassigned to the fiction category in the library.

Yes, I remember well the joys of being one of the "lost asterisk boys".

Actually things have calmed down quite a bit (one of the benefits of getting away from dna forums), but it is certainly true that genetic genealogy is not a non-partisan pursuit!



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 18, 2009, 05:39:55 PM
I think L21s position as a sibling or close cousin clade of S28, the near identical dating and the slowly emerging picture that L21 was also a big clade in the former Gaulish land in south Germany and nothern France has all but removed S28's special status as THE Gaulish clade and you certainly do not hear that kind of claim as much now.  I really do fail to see any difference between the two clades other than that L21 has a slightly more northerly epicentre in the Rhineland and northern France while S28 looks a bit more Alpine centred (but also a Belgic outlier which is a little harder to explain).

German testing in at least the Rhineland is very healthy and there  L21 considerably outnumbers S28 in project testing.  That is important as the Rhineland may be the only place in continental Europe where public testing is really very good.  It is also right in the heart of the richest early La Tene core which ran from Champagne through the Rhineland and south Germany into Bohemia.  So, just how can S28 still be considered THE Gaulish clade??  I think there is growing evidence that in the La Tene hearland of northern Gaul and the Rhineland that L21 is more common than S28.     


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 18, 2009, 09:12:16 PM
I think L21s position as a sibling or close cousin clade of S28, the near identical dating and the slowly emerging picture that L21 was also a big clade in the former Gaulish land in south Germany and nothern France has all but removed S28's special status as THE Gaulish clade and you certainly do not hear that kind of claim as much now.  I really do fail to see any difference between the two clades other than that L21 has a slightly more northerly epicentre in the Rhineland and northern France while S28 looks a bit more Alpine centred (but also a Belgic outlier which is a little harder to explain).

German testing in at least the Rhineland is very healthy and there  L21 considerably outnumbers S28 in project testing.  That is important as the Rhineland may be the only place in continental Europe where public testing is really very good.  It is also right in the heart of the richest early La Tene core which ran from Champagne through the Rhineland and south Germany into Bohemia.  So, just how can S28 still be considered THE Gaulish clade??  I think there is growing evidence that in the La Tene hearland of northern Gaul and the Rhineland that L21 is more common than S28.     

Makes me really wish they could get some y dna from the Hochdorf Chieftain (http://home.bawue.de/~wmwerner/hochdorf/hgl1.html).

If he turned out to be L21+, we would have to organize a big international R-L21 Plus Project gathering and beerfest.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mark Jost on October 05, 2009, 09:41:35 AM
I found out that the German project has Haplotypes by regions.

http://german-dna.net/Germany%20Map.htm

Not much shown in Bremen and thus could be considered for more testing.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 05, 2009, 10:43:29 AM
I only see three guys in the Bremen category: one belonging to Haplogroup  J, and the other two R1a.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mark Jost on October 05, 2009, 10:46:30 AM
yes, isnt that unbelivable that not one R1b has been tested from there?


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 05, 2009, 11:26:41 AM
It's just the lack of Germans from Bremen that test. Actually, that's a pretty huge area and could fill the L21 gap from Norway to northern Germany.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mark Jost on October 05, 2009, 11:40:26 AM
That was my exact thought as well. Rivers and Coastal areas where I would look.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 05, 2009, 11:43:36 AM
Another thing to consider is the proportion of people who test strictly for 12 markers just to know their haplogroup, don't bother deep clade testing and don't get involved in projects like this one.

I have a feeling that number is a slight majority, and the lack of North German results could be testament to that.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on October 05, 2009, 02:48:19 PM
yes, isnt that unbelivable that not one R1b has been tested from there?
Yes, especially as the perceived wisdow is that it should be nearly all U106.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 05, 2009, 02:55:19 PM
I'm starting to think that U106 is strictly a Frisian group, or mostly (I know it's present all around Europe). If one looks at R1b in Scandinavia, it's mostly P312, with the exception of Denmark (even though Denmark is under-represented). U106's presence there could be due to proximity from Frisia.

We just need more north Germans to test to see who is what there.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: vtilroe on October 05, 2009, 09:36:30 PM
^
Don't make me raise my eyebrows at you!  I wouldn't call U106 strictly "Frisian"!
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

That's like calling L21 strictly Irish!



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 05, 2009, 10:20:11 PM
My apologies. I was saying that U106 in Denmark could be attributed to Frisian developments there, and it could possibly explain why P312 is more numerous in "upper" Scandinavia.

U106 appears to radiate out of the Netherlands, and it reaches maximums there and in southern England (Frisia is kinda close). For some reason it didn't have as much impact on Norwegian and even Swedish R1b, as well as French or Irish R1b.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 06, 2009, 07:44:52 AM
My apologies. I was saying that U106 in Denmark could be attributed to Frisian developments there, and it could possibly explain why P312 is more numerous in "upper" Scandinavia.

U106 appears to radiate out of the Netherlands, and it reaches maximums there and in southern England (Frisia is kinda close). For some reason it didn't have as much impact on Norwegian and even Swedish R1b, as well as French or Irish R1b.

U106 is pretty strong all over Scandinavia, with the exception perhaps of Norway, although I suspect it will eventually be found there in some strength, as well.

Remember that France is a drastically under tested region, but there is a fair amount of U106 showing up there. too.

I do think P312 (I'm including all its subclades under that heading) is the bigger proportion of R1b1b2, however.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 06, 2009, 08:59:57 AM
Touche! I still think France will have a lot of L21!!


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 06, 2009, 12:49:04 PM
Touche! I still think France will have a lot of L21!!

If our random R1b1b2 testing is any sign, then L21 is very big in France. So far I believe L21 is holding steady at 50% of all the French we have tested and 60% of the Northern French.

It may actually be slightly less a percentage of the R1b1b2 than that, but I don't think it is much less.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on October 06, 2009, 01:42:48 PM
My apologies. I was saying that U106 in Denmark could be attributed to Frisian developments there, and it could possibly explain why P312 is more numerous in "upper" Scandinavia.

U106 appears to radiate out of the Netherlands, and it reaches maximums there and in southern England (Frisia is kinda close). For some reason it didn't have as much impact on Norwegian and even Swedish R1b, as well as French or Irish R1b.

U106 is pretty strong all over Scandinavia, with the exception perhaps of Norway, although I suspect it will eventually be found there in some strength, as well.

Remember that France is a drastically under tested region, but there is a fair amount of U106 showing up there. too.

I do think P312 (I'm including all its subclades under that heading) is the bigger proportion of R1b1b2, however.
After five or more years of testing for U106 there are only 2 U106 project members from Norway, compared to fairly large numbers from Denmark and Sweden. Obviously these project numbers, being self-selected, aren't scientifically valid, but it certainly seems odd to me. Meanwhile, we have nearly the mirror image with L21. A year or so of testing has turned up larger numbers in Norway than in the rest of Scandinavia combined.
I have long believed that the distribution of R1b subclades in Scandinavia is the key to understanding the mystery of R1b in Europe.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 06, 2009, 02:42:35 PM

After five or more years of testing for U106 there are only 2 U106 project members from Norway, compared to fairly large numbers from Denmark and Sweden. Obviously these project numbers, being self-selected, aren't scientifically valid, but it certainly seems odd to me. Meanwhile, we have nearly the mirror image with L21. A year or so of testing has turned up larger numbers in Norway than in the rest of Scandinavia combined.
I have long believed that the distribution of R1b subclades in Scandinavia is the key to understanding the mystery of R1b in Europe.

It's true there's something somewhat unique about Norway. I wish someone would do a really thorough study of the R1b1b2 there, including all the subclades.

I know at the last FTDNA conference Dr. Hammer said R-L21 accounted for 50% of FTDNA's Norwegian R1b database.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on October 06, 2009, 04:06:58 PM
Which Scandinavian population was represented the most in immigration to the United States? From what I hear (maybe wrong), most people of Scandinavian descent in the upper Midwest are Norwegian. Maybe that's why L21 is more represented there? Who knows.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 14, 2009, 07:33:42 PM

There was a study of 42 R1b men from Tyrol (Austria) tested for  U152,  U106 and U198 which found 9 (21.4%), 25 (59.5%), and 1 (2.4%) respectively. That is a hell of a lot of U106. This leaves just under 20% unresolved, probably most split in some way between L21 and S116*.  I wonder if that is in any way representative of Austria or just a localised thing.   In Tyrol R1b drops to less than a third of the population.  If this was representative of Austria as a whole, it would suggest that L21 really wasnt big there. 

I have as suspicion however, that it may have been stronger to the north in the Czech Republic.  That area seems to have featured elites that were culturally linked with the L21 areas of the Rhineland and the France/Luxembourgh areas in the early La Tene period.  This makes the Czech testing interesting. 



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 22, 2009, 09:27:37 AM
There was a study of 42 R1b men from Tyrol (Austria) tested for  U152,  U106 and U198 which found 9 (21.4%), 25 (59.5%), and 1 (2.4%) respectively. That is a hell of a lot of U106. This leaves just under 20% unresolved, probably most split in some way between L21 and S116*.  I wonder if that is in any way representative of Austria or just a localised thing.   In Tyrol R1b drops to less than a third of the population.  If this was representative of Austria as a whole, it would suggest that L21 really wasnt big there. 

I have as suspicion however, that it may have been stronger to the north in the Czech Republic.  That area seems to have featured elites that were culturally linked with the L21 areas of the Rhineland and the France/Luxembourgh areas in the early La Tene period.  This makes the Czech testing interesting. 
The "keeper of R-U152 data", Dr. David Faux said this on another forum today.
Quote from: David Faux
Southern Germany remains the hotspot (with Switzerland), there are no U152 in Northern Germany. Considering the huge numbers of Germans who came to Illinois and Missouri (for example) in the 19th Century from Osnabruck and similar locations in the north, I don't think that this observation can be dismissed as only reflecting the Palatine migration to the USA in the 18th Century. Besides there is a very tight circumscribed Scandinavian distribution that does not extend past the neck of Jutland.
One point that is pertinent is that Northern Germany is not bypassed as far as an immigration source for Americans, therefore we should not write-off a heavy Rhineland-Palatinate distribution of a subclade as strictly immigration bias.  Seems reasonable. Do you agree?

The geographic pattern he observes fro R-U152 has overlap with R-L21*.  However note that he says is a lack of Northern German R-U152 presence and a lack of presence in Scandinavia, except Denmark.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on October 22, 2009, 05:51:14 PM
Correction: The "keeper of R-U152 data", that he wants to acknowledge.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on October 22, 2009, 07:38:33 PM
I think it is still true that far more Rhenish Germans immigrated to North America than from any other region in Germany.

Just the same, U152 does seem weighted to the south, while we have some members from North Germany (and from nearby in the Netherlands).



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 22, 2009, 09:31:21 PM
I think there is a real pattern of L21s overall spread now when you look at the map of western Europe.  However I do suspect that the super concentration of many clades along the Rhine is a biase.  You just have to look at the big drop off in numbers in south Germany as you head into its eastern half.  That effects all the clades.  So I think there is some skewing effect.  Similarly there is an effect caused by French in north America being mainly from the north-western quarter of the country. 


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 08, 2010, 02:53:34 PM
We have a new German R-L21* today: Waibel, Ysearch VBCW9, whose ancestor came from Bad Hindelang in Bavaria, down near the Austrian border.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 08, 2010, 04:32:52 PM
We have a new German R-L21* today: Waibel, Ysearch VBCW9, whose ancestor came from Bad Hindelang in Bavaria, down near the Austrian border.
Waibelt said:
Quote
My Family name is Waibel and I can trace my Family records back to 1590 in the south Bavarian Alps. However my Family name is recorded in this part of south Bavaria since 1369. I was therefore always under the impression that there is no doubt in my „ethnic“ background since the first settlers came relatively late in the southern region of the Bavarian Alps (~8/9th century) and they were from the Germanic Tribe of the Alimanni.
So I had my DNA Test done and that’s were it starts to get all strange.
My YSEARCH ID is: A6QBQ
My Haplotype is R1b1b2a1b5 (L2- L21+ L48- M222- M37- P66-)

What he meant by "strange" is that he had heard L21+ was Celtic and he thought he was Germanic.   A couple of folks tried to explain things weren't pure nor simple, but he does use a different Ysearch ID other than VBCW9.  Perhaps it is a duplicate.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 08, 2010, 05:39:21 PM
Although L21 does look more common in the old Celtic world, it is likely that SNPs like L21 and U152 pre-date any division between Celt and German.  L21 is common in some areas that were never Celtic, like Norway.  

Here is a question.  The idea that both L21 and U152 are mainly Celtic comes from the fact that many seem concentrated below the Rhine/Main line and there are big drop offs in the numbers to the north of that line.  Its not absolute but the lack of those clades in the northern part of Germany where Celts never lived in very noticeable.   How much of this could be a distortion due to migration patterns to America?  Clearly the Rhine is partly a distortion.   


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 08, 2010, 07:36:05 PM
We have a new German R-L21* today: Waibel, Ysearch VBCW9, whose ancestor came from Bad Hindelang in Bavaria, down near the Austrian border.
Waibelt said:
Quote
My Family name is Waibel and I can trace my Family records back to 1590 in the south Bavarian Alps. However my Family name is recorded in this part of south Bavaria since 1369. I was therefore always under the impression that there is no doubt in my „ethnic“ background since the first settlers came relatively late in the southern region of the Bavarian Alps (~8/9th century) and they were from the Germanic Tribe of the Alimanni.
So I had my DNA Test done and that’s were it starts to get all strange.
My YSEARCH ID is: A6QBQ
My Haplotype is R1b1b2a1b5 (L2- L21+ L48- M222- M37- P66-)

What he meant by "strange" is that he had heard L21+ was Celtic and he thought he was Germanic.   A couple of folks tried to explain things weren't pure nor simple, but he does use a different Ysearch ID other than VBCW9.  Perhaps it is a duplicate.

Perhaps he was unaware of South Germany's Celtic past.

By the way, according to the World Names Profiler, the surname Waibel is more common in Austria than in Germany.



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 08, 2010, 10:22:41 PM
Although L21 does look more common in the old Celtic world, it is likely that SNPs like L21 and U152 pre-date any division between Celt and German.  L21 is common in some areas that were never Celtic, like Norway.  

Here is a question.  The idea that both L21 and U152 are mainly Celtic comes from the fact that many seem concentrated below the Rhine/Main line and there are big drop offs in the numbers to the north of that line.  Its not absolute but the lack of those clades in the northern part of Germany where Celts never lived in very noticeable.   How much of this could be a distortion due to migration patterns to America?  Clearly the Rhine is partly a distortion.   

We do have a few members whose ancestors came from North Germany. Perhaps more would show up if we had more Deep Clade-R tests on men with ancestry in that area.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 09, 2010, 12:45:28 PM
Interestingly, Waibel is our fifth Bavarian R-L21*.

One of our Czechs, Goblirsch, is probably a Bavarian, as well, since that surname is very common in Bavaria.

Wish we could test a good-sized Bavarian sample for L21.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on January 09, 2010, 03:59:14 PM
Although L21 does look more common in the old Celtic world, it is likely that SNPs like L21 and U152 pre-date any division between Celt and German.  L21 is common in some areas that were never Celtic, like Norway.  

Here is a question.  The idea that both L21 and U152 are mainly Celtic comes from the fact that many seem concentrated below the Rhine/Main line and there are big drop offs in the numbers to the north of that line.  Its not absolute but the lack of those clades in the northern part of Germany where Celts never lived in very noticeable.   How much of this could be a distortion due to migration patterns to America?  Clearly the Rhine is partly a distortion.   
Based on the currently available evidence, I think one can say that L21 was a common genetic signature amongst the Celts, and that it was present in some as yet unknown proportion amongst the Germanics.
When we have 51,000 testees with Y ancestry from northern Germany and Scandinavia, I think we will have a better idea how common L21 was amongst the Germanics.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 09, 2010, 06:17:30 PM
Although L21 does look more common in the old Celtic world, it is likely that SNPs like L21 and U152 pre-date any division between Celt and German.  L21 is common in some areas that were never Celtic, like Norway.  

Here is a question.  The idea that both L21 and U152 are mainly Celtic comes from the fact that many seem concentrated below the Rhine/Main line and there are big drop offs in the numbers to the north of that line.  Its not absolute but the lack of those clades in the northern part of Germany where Celts never lived in very noticeable.   How much of this could be a distortion due to migration patterns to America?  Clearly the Rhine is partly a distortion.   
Based on the currently available evidence, I think one can say that L21 was a common genetic signature amongst the Celts, and that it was present in some as yet unknown proportion amongst the Germanics.
When we have 51,000 testees with Y ancestry from northern Germany and Scandinavia, I think we will have a better idea how common L21 was amongst the Germanics.

I still think any reference to a Celtic type, Germanic, etc. needs to be attached to a timeframe.  A lineage could easily be Celtic, then Germanic and then Celtic again, although it is more likely to end with Germanic, particularly if we could consider an Anglo-American culture as Germanic since it has a Germanic language.

Well, even though I speak Germanic, in the end I suppose I'm part of a Greco-Roman culture.  Am I Roman?  LOL.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 09, 2010, 06:22:18 PM
Interestingly, Waibel is our fifth Bavarian R-L21*.

One of our Czechs, Goblirsch, is probably a Bavarian, as well, since that surname is very common in Bavaria.

Wish we could test a good-sized Bavarian sample for L21.
Rich S,
Have you contacted this guy?  I noticed him in the "Scots Cluster" at Andrew L's web site.
Emler  A4AHX  Bavaria/Bayern, Germany

If he is Scots, he is probably L21+.

EDIT: He has 37 markers tested so he doesn't have 531 allele.  His YCAII=19,22 so I'm not sure why he is in the Scots spreadsheet.  If he has some loose affiliation, though, I'd think he'd still be L21+.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 10, 2010, 09:28:21 AM
Interestingly, Waibel is our fifth Bavarian R-L21*.

One of our Czechs, Goblirsch, is probably a Bavarian, as well, since that surname is very common in Bavaria.

Wish we could test a good-sized Bavarian sample for L21.
Rich S,
Have you contacted this guy?  I noticed him in the "Scots Cluster" at Andrew L's web site.
Emler  A4AHX  Bavaria/Bayern, Germany

If he is Scots, he is probably L21+.

EDIT: He has 37 markers tested so he doesn't have 531 allele.  His YCAII=19,22 so I'm not sure why he is in the Scots spreadsheet.  If he has some loose affiliation, though, I'd think he'd still be L21+.

I'm not sure why people get assigned to these "modals" who don't have all or even most of the really significant marker values of the cluster. I don't see A4AHX as belonging to the Scots Cluster. Who is "Andrew L"?

We already have one Emler/Immler in the project: Bruce (his adoptive surname), Ysearch SC2HJ.

I will write this Emler, though.

Thanks.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 10, 2010, 11:05:43 PM
 .... I'm not sure why people get assigned to these "modals" who don't have all or even most of the really significant marker values of the cluster. I don't see A4AHX as belonging to the Scots Cluster. Who is "Andrew L"?
....
This is Andrew L.
http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/

I just try to abbreviate last names so people are not picked up in general google searches and the like for privacy sake.  However, some folks, i.e. Anatole Klyosov, want you to cite their names fully.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 11, 2010, 06:12:22 PM
I noticed this guy on the 464x project web site.
N47848   Rudolph Sidney Adams, d 1854, d Hannover, Germany

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/DYS464x%20ccgg/default.aspx?section=yresults

He doesn't look like he's L21 tested but he is green R1b1b2, 2c2g and 389i=14.

If Kirsten is checking, maybe she has more info on his status?


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 26, 2010, 08:48:58 PM
A new German R-L21 just showed up in Ysearch: Wiegand (ancestral surname Weygand), Ysearch 8EFGC.

He doesn't match Wigand from Bavaria who is already a member of the R-L21 Plus Project, so this is a different line.

His ancestor came from Eifa in Hessen in west central Germany.

I have invited him to join the project. Hopefully he will.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 27, 2010, 04:28:05 PM
A new German R-L21 just showed up in Ysearch: Wiegand (ancestral surname Weygand), Ysearch 8EFGC.

He doesn't match Wigand from Bavaria who is already a member of the R-L21 Plus Project, so this is a different line.

His ancestor came from Eifa in Hessen in west central Germany.

I have invited him to join the project. Hopefully he will.

Wiegand has joined the project, and yet another new German R-L21 popped up today in the Germany Project, Wendling, Ysearch ENFH4. His ancestor came from Alsace in what is now France.

Needless to say, I have also invited Wendling to join the R-L21 Plus Project.

We're starting to pick up some new members in Eastern France. :-)


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 28, 2010, 08:31:54 PM
Wendling joined, but I've got him in the France category, because his ancestor came from Kindwiller in Alsace in what is now France.



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 21, 2010, 08:42:55 PM
I just noticed a new R-L21 in the Germany Project: Wentzel, kit 81967.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?section=yresults)

I can't find him in Ysearch, but I have emailed my friend Ed Martin of the Germany Project to try to recruit Wentzel for the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on April 21, 2010, 10:07:27 PM
Did you notice the M222 collection? Are they all N/W Irish?

There is a Murphy listed in the M222+ group with a sequence very similar to mine. He looks like he is from the Leinster group in the Murphy Project.

Murphy 
R1b1b2a1b5
12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

Me R-L159.2+
12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 22, 2010, 08:43:21 PM
Did you notice the M222 collection? Are they all N/W Irish?

There is a Murphy listed in the M222+ group with a sequence very similar to mine. He looks like he is from the Leinster group in the Murphy Project.

Murphy  
R1b1b2a1b5
12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

Me R-L159.2+
12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

That's not an M222+ group. That is an error committed by whoever created those categories. Most of those guys are members of the R-L21 Plus project. That category should read "R-L21" NOT "M222+".

There are folks in the Germany Project who are in it on the basis of their maternal line. That is probably why you see a Murphy and a Babson there, for example.

Just take a look at the surnames and you can pick out which ones are in the Germany Project because of their paternal line and which ones are probably there based on their maternal line.

Besides, most M222+ guys have a fairly distinctive haplotype that is not too difficult to spot.

None of our L21+ Germans is "N/W Irish".


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 22, 2010, 11:06:55 PM
I just noticed a new R-L21 in the Germany Project: Wentzel, kit 81967.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?section=yresults)

I can't find him in Ysearch, but I have emailed my friend Ed Martin of the Germany Project to try to recruit Wentzel for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Nice!


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 23, 2010, 09:49:43 AM
I just noticed a new R-L21 in the Germany Project: Wentzel, kit 81967.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?section=yresults)

I can't find him in Ysearch, but I have emailed my friend Ed Martin of the Germany Project to try to recruit Wentzel for the R-L21 Plus Project.
Great catch, Rich!   Either you've already invented it, or someone needs to program it; but we should get you a some kind app that trolls through these projects looking for R1b1b2a1b5.

Wenztel is interesting.   Get this -  a possible pre-Scots Modal type* person???

He has these off-modals (of WAMH) that line up with the Scots Modal people:
391=10
YCAII=19,24
531=12
413a=22

He's off the Scots Modal, but still off WAMH on the following:
389ii-i=18, which is one higher (more off-modal WAMH) than the Scots =17/16
GataH4=10 which is one lower than WAMH, rather than higher =12 which is Scots

Particularly because of the 389ii-i being particularly high, higher than the Scots, perhaps this represents a very early branch off the Scots Modal people... or perhaps I'm drinking too much.

I was thinking about this and it is amusing.  I see this type haplotype and location and I immediately think things like "perhaps this is where the Scots modal people come from".   On the other hand, there are other people out there seeing something like this and it must pop into their minds "perhaps this is an Irish monk or Wild Geese type or Scots/Irish slave".   We don't really know but it is amusing about folks' predisposition.

* Note: I don't claim that "Scots Modal" people are really truly based on Gaelic Irish/Scots tribes.  Perhaps they were ancient Picts of some sort.. or Caledonians, whatever that is.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: y24 on April 23, 2010, 03:20:25 PM
Wentzel does indeed look 'Scots R1b'. He's only a GD of 4/67 markers from Tagert (mabkf). The name Tagert is an Anglicisation of the Gaelic Mac an t-Sagairt, meaning "son of the priest".


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 23, 2010, 08:35:17 PM
Yeah, I noticed his 391=10 and YCAII=19,24 right away.

What bugs the hell out of me (seriously), however, is the use to which such information is put. One German R-L21 who might have a Scots-looking haplotype out of many who plainly do not and suddenly Scotland is the source of all continental L21.

It fries me, honestly.

If there is one thing that will make me walk away from this hobby in absolute disgust, that is it.

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps at least some of the Scottish Celts originally came from Germany? Recall what Tacitus wrote in his Agricola (11)?

Quote from: Tacitus
The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 23, 2010, 09:20:50 PM
Yeah, I noticed his 391=10 and YCAII=19,24 right away.
What bugs the hell out of me (seriously), however, is the use to which such information is put. One German R-L21 who might have a Scots-looking haplotype out of many who plainly do not and suddenly Scotland is the source of all continental L21.
Some of this is just the dominance of Irish and Scottish haplotypes in the commercial data bases.  Some of this because of that predominance, the early cluster descriptions were assigned Isles names.

I don't like the Scots naming in this case, not only because it may be wider than Scotland, but also because we don't even know if these guys are true ancient Scotti.  They may be Picts or Caledonians or just a northern Brit or a mix of all these these things.

That's why I use labels like
1012-A   1012-A-Sc       1012-A-Sc-1   1012-A-22     and 1012-B
for these clusters (short for 391=10  531=12  GataH4=12, etc.)  We don't know their cultural associations other than modern day, but this is just more jargon that people don't like anyway.  So, I don't have a good answer.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 24, 2010, 05:13:32 AM
Yeah, I noticed his 391=10 and YCAII=19,24 right away.

What bugs the hell out of me (seriously), however, is the use to which such information is put. One German R-L21 who might have a Scots-looking haplotype out of many who plainly do not and suddenly Scotland is the source of all continental L21.

It fries me, honestly.

If there is one thing that will make me walk away from this hobby in absolute disgust, that is it.

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps at least some of the Scottish Celts originally came from Germany? Recall what Tacitus wrote in his Agricola (11)?

Quote from: Tacitus
The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin.

Of course the Romans were stereotyping.  Exactly the same idea of the Scots and the Irish being all red heads remains today.  Yes they do have noticeably more red hair than other peoples around Europe but it is only around the 10% mark in those countries.  It only stands out because the norm is far lower than that-perhaps just a few percent.  Even the more red headed continental countries would only have half of that.  Also, if the Germans were red headed in the past they certainly are not anywhere near as much as the British and Irish today from my own travels and I think I recall reading its only a few % today.  I have a suspicion that the Roman stereotype came from the tribes along the Celtic-Germanic boundary.  The only place in the Germanic world I have noticed a lot of redheads (not just blondes with a touch of red) is Holland (think Van Gough!)


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 24, 2010, 05:40:36 AM
Yeah, I noticed his 391=10 and YCAII=19,24 right away.
What bugs the hell out of me (seriously), however, is the use to which such information is put. One German R-L21 who might have a Scots-looking haplotype out of many who plainly do not and suddenly Scotland is the source of all continental L21.
Some of this is just the dominance of Irish and Scottish haplotypes in the commercial data bases.  Some of this because of that predominance, the early cluster descriptions were assigned Isles names.

I don't like the Scots naming in this case, not only because it may be wider than Scotland, but also because we don't even know if these guys are true ancient Scotti.  They may be Picts or Caledonians or just a northern Brit or a mix of all these these things.

That's why I use labels like
1012-A   1012-A-Sc       1012-A-Sc-1   1012-A-22     and 1012-B
for these clusters (short for 391=10  531=12  GataH4=12, etc.)  We don't know their cultural associations other than modern day, but this is just more jargon that people don't like anyway.  So, I don't have a good answer.

I agree that isles names on clusters is a bad idea at present in most cases except perhaps the very largest locaised clusters.  The level of overrepresentation of the isles compared to any single European country must be extraordinary.  Probably one continental hit is as good as 10 in the isles.  Many isles clusters may not be especially isles at all.  

As for the Scot-like German.  Surely some of the STR defined clusters on the isles must have formed very slowly mutation by mutation and some of these may have happened before the isles was reached and before the cluster expanded.  There must have been people with STRs matching every step from L21 modal to a distinctive cluster like NW Irish or Scots.  It wasnt like they were modal L21 one day and Scot or NW Irish (or whatever) the next.  Many clusters must have left a trail of people who are at various stages between the L21 modal and the cluster modals - a sort of continuum and constant fission of lineages/branching.   The final stages would be like the pre-M222 theory where you get people who are very like the NW Irish cluster but lack the SNP who perhaps branched off from the common ancestor of them and the line who got the M222 SNP a few generations later.  I find the theory a useful one and if we had a much better continental 67 marker database then I wonder if we perhaps we could see a trail that would add geography to the various stages of process of mutation and lineage fission that led from L21 modal to a localized cluster.  


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 24, 2010, 08:50:59 AM
Yeah, I noticed his 391=10 and YCAII=19,24 right away.

What bugs the hell out of me (seriously), however, is the use to which such information is put. One German R-L21 who might have a Scots-looking haplotype out of many who plainly do not and suddenly Scotland is the source of all continental L21.

It fries me, honestly.

If there is one thing that will make me walk away from this hobby in absolute disgust, that is it.

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps at least some of the Scottish Celts originally came from Germany? Recall what Tacitus wrote in his Agricola (11)?

Quote from: Tacitus
The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin.

Of course the Romans were stereotyping.  Exactly the same idea of the Scots and the Irish being all red heads remains today.  Yes they do have noticeably more red hair than other peoples around Europe but it is only around the 10% mark in those countries.  It only stands out because the norm is far lower than that-perhaps just a few percent.  Even the more red headed continental countries would only have half of that.  Also, if the Germans were red headed in the past they certainly are not anywhere near as much as the British and Irish today from my own travels and I think I recall reading its only a few % today.  I have a suspicion that the Roman stereotype came from the tribes along the Celtic-Germanic boundary.  The only place in the Germanic world I have noticed a lot of redheads (not just blondes with a touch of red) is Holland (think Van Gough!)

I understand that, but Tacitus would have been speaking of that part of Germania best known by the Romans - the more Celtic area along the Rhenish boundary with Gaul. Naturally subsequent centuries have seen the dilution of the original phenotypes in that region and in Caledonia, as well.

Tacitus' observations are worth noting at least.

The original Caledonians came from somewhere. They didn't just spring, full-grown and rufous, from the heather.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: y24 on April 24, 2010, 05:24:05 PM
The German, Wentzel, is a GD 63/67 match with someone with a Scottish name in the same L21+ 'Scots R1b' subclade.  Seems like they share a fairly recent link within genealogical time. Very interesting for the people concerned and they must surely be connected within a few hundred years rather than thousands.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 24, 2010, 05:35:43 PM
The German, Wentzel, is a GD 63/67 match with someone with a Scottish name in the same L21+ 'Scots R1b' subclade.  Seems like they share a fairly recent link within genealogical time. Very interesting for the people concerned and they must surely be connected within a few hundred years rather than thousands.

Perhaps, but I know of men almost that closely matched at 67 markers who belong to different subclades.

Just the same, maybe Wentzel has Scottish ancestry. Since he has not joined the R-L21 Plus Project, I don't know anything about him. Wentzel could be an adopted surname or his mother's maiden surname.

His particular case says nothing about German R-L21 or continental R-L21 in general.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 24, 2010, 05:46:28 PM
The German, Wentzel, is a GD 63/67 match with someone with a Scottish name in the same L21+ 'Scots R1b' subclade.  Seems like they share a fairly recent link within genealogical time. Very interesting for the people concerned and they must surely be connected within a few hundred years rather than thousands.
I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion. Who is (are) the 63/67 matches you are talking about?

I try to look at only deep clade tested folks since that eliminates a lot of the noise.  When I do that I get Wentzel's closest GD's at 67 are:
Henry Alger, b.1829, England
James Tagert, b.c.1770, North Carolina, USA; d.1827, Spring Hill, AL
Joseph Patterson, b.1779; d. 1863 - Pennsylvania, USA

The closest of the above to Wentzel is 62/67.  I don't see an MDKA with Scotland listed although they all fit into a cluster that is referenced as the "Scots modal".  I don't trust surnames, especially given we are talking about people in the US (except Alger and Wentzel.)

Perhaps most more important; absolute GD evaluations are not the best sole mechanism for determining relationships.  Signature markers are very important too along with geographic and genealogic information.

Does the 63/67 match have the following off-modals in common with Wentzel - 565=11, 437=14 and GataH4=10?   These are all slow to medium moving so I'd expect a match in the last couple of hundred years to match on two or at least one of the three.  If there is a strong match on a couple of these I'd put added credence on a recent connection.

There certainly could be a recent connection, but there could be an old relationship as well.



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on April 24, 2010, 07:57:16 PM
The German, Wentzel, is a GD 63/67 match with someone with a Scottish name in the same L21+ 'Scots R1b' subclade.  Seems like they share a fairly recent link within genealogical time. Very interesting for the people concerned and they must surely be connected within a few hundred years rather than thousands.

Perhaps, but I know of men almost that closely matched at 67 markers who belong to different subclades.




Perhaps I am wrong, but I would expect to see matches of 60+ out of 67 markers for persons in different R1b subclades only in cases where both individuals are very, very close to the WAMH.

If that is not the case, I would be interested to know about it.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 24, 2010, 08:29:55 PM
Perhaps I am wrong, but I would expect to see matches of 60+ out of 67 markers for persons in different R1b subclades only in cases where both individuals are very, very close to the WAMH.

If that is not the case, I would be interested to know about it.
I started a topic on another forum about this very topic.  I'll have to go do some searches but, if my memory serves me,  we've had 24/25 even 25/25 from different SNP marked subclades, we've had 35/37 from different subclades and even a 62/67 from different R1b1b2 subclades.  These are other people's posts in response to my question so I don't have the Ysearch ID's.

I have seen a case of O'Shea's who are 63/67 and one is deep claded tested to L21 and the other to U106.   However, we think that is an error and the lab is retesting.

This is all in context to TMRCA's for "genealogical timeframes".  We should probably define what that is.  I'm thinking the last 400 years ago but perhaps some think the last 1000 years.  In any case, I don't trust TMRCA's to be that accurate.  I personally have a 61/67 that FTDNA says is a 90% chance of being related in the last 600 years.  However, since our surnames are different and the closest our paternal lineages would have come in the last 800 years is at least 1000 miles I have my doubts.  Meanwhile, I've got people with the surname from the same county in Ireland that are 58-59/67.  Who is more closely related?    How much do I trust the TMRCA estimate?


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 24, 2010, 08:48:48 PM
I personally know of a match that is 60/67 and the two men are in different subclades. One of them is P312* and the other is L21+, and I have heard of closer matches than that where the two men are in different subclades. I can't say much about their proximity to WAMH.

Wentzel's case may be something else. Frankly, I'm sorry I even mentioned him now, because every such incident is seized upon to make L21 out to be THE ultimate British SNP.

Such blather makes it hard to recruit continentals who are not over fond of being thought British.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 24, 2010, 11:14:12 PM
I personally know of a match that is 60/67 and the two men are in different subclades. One of them is P312* and the other is L21+, and I have heard of closer matches than that where the two men are in different subclades. I can't say much about their proximity to WAMH.

Wentzel's case may be something else. Frankly, I'm sorry I even mentioned him now, because every such incident is seized upon to make L21 out to be THE ultimate British SNP.

Such blather makes it hard to recruit continentals who are not over fond of being thought British.

I am starting to think that STR similarities are telling us nothing about someone's deep ancestry. Like you guys say, P312* and L21 multiplied so rapidly, who is to say that the haplotypes will HAVE to look so different in one area or another.

If this guy is German, he is GERMAN. I think some folks are making this more complicated than what it is. I honestly think these clusters such as the "Scot" one established itself long before the emergence of different European cultures.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on April 25, 2010, 08:44:54 PM
and some came back as vikings


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 25, 2010, 10:14:28 PM
and some came back as vikings

If I see R1a then I can believe that one for sure.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on April 26, 2010, 08:46:20 AM
I suspect  R1b1b2a1b5 was in Scandinavia well before the Vikings.
If so.. some Vikings/Norse/Normans could very well be as such.



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 26, 2010, 08:59:19 AM
I suspect  R1b1b2a1b5 was in Scandinavia well before the Vikings.
If so.. some Vikings/Norse/Normans could very well be as such.



That's true too.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 26, 2010, 09:07:07 AM
I am starting to think that STR similarities are telling us nothing about someone's deep ancestry. Like you guys say, P312* and L21 multiplied so rapidly, who is to say that the haplotypes will HAVE to look so different in one area or another.
STR patterns can tell a lot.  Haplotypes don't look alike, particularly the more distant your common ancestor is with the haplotype your comparing against.  Conversely, the reverse is true.  Within a sub-clade, like haplotypes increase the probabilities of a more recent common ancestor.

The stronger the signature, the better. By that I mean the larger the pattern of common unusual marker alleles (values), the better the odds of a more recent relationship.   SNP's only "flag" an actual clade.  The clade is there or isn't there regardless of our ability to describe it with our measurements. STR's can indicate a clade and SNP's can more reliably "flag" the clade.

Quote from: NealtheRed
If this guy is German, he is GERMAN. I think some folks are making this more complicated than what it is. I honestly think these clusters such as the "Scot" one established itself long before the emergence of different European cultures.
It is quite possible that many of the clusters emerged before the current cultural identities, in fact, it is no doubt true given the way cultures change.

I think the point of deep ancestry is what location and group of people a lineage was in at a given point in time.  This may seem complicated, but it just the way it is.  Peoples merge, split, migrate and cultures change.  Today's German, may have had a sequence of Celtic speakers in its lineage somewhere. Today's Scot may have had a series of Celtic speakers in its lineage and possibly Germanic speaker before that and possibly Celtic again before that.   I think this kind of kind change may be more frequent than many people realize, and may be hard to accept at first.

For example, the language my paternal lineage spoke probably changed to completely at least four or five times in the last 1500-2000 years.  What group were we in and when?  


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 26, 2010, 09:08:49 AM
I suspect  R1b1b2a1b5 was in Scandinavia well before the Vikings.
If so.. some Vikings/Norse/Normans could very well be as such.
I don't think there is any question of that, given the rate of R-L21 being found in Norway and give the correlation of Bell Beaker distribution (which includes Nowray) and parts of R-P312.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 26, 2010, 10:43:50 AM
Right. And there is no reason to think that no L21 existed amongst the Geats either. My extended family (L21+) comes from Hisingen, an island off the west coast of Vastergotland. It lies right on the Skagerrak.

We just need a sample that reveals the normal distribution of subclades in Southern Scandinavia.

I'm thinking that the proto-Germanic culture split off from the proto-Celtic culture and brought R1a, R1b and subclades to areas that developed into Germanic proper.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 26, 2010, 11:27:36 AM
Right. And there is no reason to think that no L21 existed amongst the Geats either. My extended family (L21+) comes from Hisingen, an island off the west coast of Vastergotland. It lies right on the Skagerrak.

We just need a sample that reveals the normal distribution of subclades in Southern Scandinavia.

I'm thinking that the proto-Germanic culture split off from the proto-Celtic culture and brought R1a, R1b and subclades to areas that developed into Germanic proper.
Agreed. One of my closest matches is guy in Sweden who traces his family back 500 years to Ostergotland, which is adjacent to the Baltic.  There are a couple of R-L21* Finns as well.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 26, 2010, 11:40:12 AM
Right. And there is no reason to think that no L21 existed amongst the Geats either. My extended family (L21+) comes from Hisingen, an island off the west coast of Vastergotland. It lies right on the Skagerrak.

We just need a sample that reveals the normal distribution of subclades in Southern Scandinavia.

I'm thinking that the proto-Germanic culture split off from the proto-Celtic culture and brought R1a, R1b and subclades to areas that developed into Germanic proper.
Agreed. One of my closest matches is guy in Sweden who traces his family back 500 years to Ostergotland, which is adjacent to the Baltic.  There are a couple of R-L21* Finns as well.

The Angles faced the Baltic side of the Jutland peninsula too. I think at least one L21 is near Vaasa, Finland. The Swedes held that area for a long time in the Middle Ages, so the L21 there has to be a Germanic contingent. I think the highest YDNA frequency among the Saami is N.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on April 26, 2010, 02:32:49 PM
Here is an interesting twist. An L21 Scot recently posted on the DNA forum that he was very worried that he might be Germanic because most of his matches were from Germany!


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 26, 2010, 04:07:02 PM
That is comical in light of recent events!


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 26, 2010, 05:44:53 PM
 I personally see t a fairly chaotic spread of ht15 with SNPs occurring as it moved west.  i think at the time of the spread there was no cultural/linguistic significance between the ht15 clades because the variance MRCA dates suggest the SNPs occurred rapidly and in many area they would also have arrived mixed from the start.  I think its speed suggests we should be looking at it as an 'ht15 spread', perhaps of Indo-Europeans not yet split into different groups.  

That is not to say the proportions of each clade did not vary greatly or that some areas ended up with a strong predominance of one type, just that the mix was likely not a  cultural signifier. I think what happened is later spheres of interaction led to dialects evolving into blocks but the clades structure had been determined long before in the initial spread.  



Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 26, 2010, 06:04:53 PM
Here is an interesting twist. An L21 Scot recently posted on the DNA forum that he was very worried that he might be Germanic because most of his matches were from Germany!

Well there clearly was an element of Angles in southern Scotland in the Dark Ages.  The Kingdom of Bernicia (part of Northumbria) included first the SE area including Edinburgh and perhaps Stirling and later also included the SW area too around Galloway etc.  Although some people prefer to claim an exclusively Celtic identity, the reality is that the Angles brought the Anglo-Germanic dialect that would evolve into 'Scots', the language of Robert Burns etc.  Identity is a very fluid thing.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 26, 2010, 06:11:57 PM
I personally see t a fairly chaotic spread of ht15 with SNPs occurring as it moved west.  i think at the time of the spread there was no cultural/linguistic significance between the ht15 clades because the variance MRCA dates suggest the SNPs occurred rapidly and in many area they would also have arrived mixed from the start.  I think its speed suggests we should be looking at it as an 'ht15 spread', perhaps of Indo-Europeans not yet split into different groups.  

That is not to say the proportions of each clade did not vary greatly or that some areas ended up with a strong predominance of one type, just that the mix was likely not a  cultural signifier. I think what happened is later spheres of interaction led to dialects evolving into blocks but the clades structure had been determined long before in the initial spread.  
Alan, yours is a very reasonable description that could account for what we have today.

You use the word "chaotic".  I assume you meant there was a lot of inter-cultural stress and conflict.  Is that what you meant?


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on April 26, 2010, 06:46:28 PM
I personally see t a fairly chaotic spread of ht15 with SNPs occurring as it moved west.  i think at the time of the spread there was no cultural/linguistic significance between the ht15 clades because the variance MRCA dates suggest the SNPs occurred rapidly and in many area they would also have arrived mixed from the start.  I think its speed suggests we should be looking at it as an 'ht15 spread', perhaps of Indo-Europeans not yet split into different groups.  

That is not to say the proportions of each clade did not vary greatly or that some areas ended up with a strong predominance of one type, just that the mix was likely not a  cultural signifier. I think what happened is later spheres of interaction led to dialects evolving into blocks but the clades structure had been determined long before in the initial spread.  


I agree that this is the most likely scenario.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on April 26, 2010, 10:40:40 PM
A study was done recently on the E1a (E1b1a?) clades amongst Bantu and Yoruba speakers in Africa. While these languages differ like Celtic and Germanic, the study found no genetic differences to exist when it comes to language.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 27, 2010, 08:10:57 PM
A study was done recently on the E1a (E1b1a?) clades amongst Bantu and Yoruba speakers in Africa. While these languages differ like Celtic and Germanic, the study found no genetic differences to exist when it comes to language.

I believe Vince Vizachero posted a link to that study's abstract a short while back. As I recall, it said there was no difference at the very fine level but mentioned other studies that did find differences over larger language regions.

In other words, one may not find a great deal of genetic difference between speakers of different languages when those speakers live in close proximity to one another in a small region, perhaps a border region between the two languages. But the differences grow greater when one compares the language groups over larger regions.

Is that such a surprise?

Take Germany and Poland for example. Where Polish speakers transition over to German speakers one is likely to find a similar spread of y-dna haplogroups, mostly R1a transitioning to more R1b, etc. But if one compares the entire German language region to the entire region where Polish is spoken, the differences will be much more readily apparent.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 09, 2010, 09:54:17 AM
There is a new German R-L21 this morning: Feldman (Feltmann), Ysearch 674QH. His ancestor was born in Westerkappeln in Nordrhein-Westfalen, just northwest of Osnabrück.

(Just as an aside, recall that Hubert said the Goidels probably came from the area of Nordrhein-Westfalen.)


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 09, 2010, 03:42:41 PM
There is a new German R-L21 this morning: Feldman (Feltmann), Ysearch 674QH. His ancestor was born in Westerkappeln in Nordrhein-Westfalen, just northwest of Osnabrück.

(Just as an aside, recall that Hubert said the Goidels probably came from the area of Nordrhein-Westfalen.)

Interestingly, the head measurers like Carleton Coon said that the closest match for Irish Early Bronze Age skulls/skeletons was in the Rhineland immediately south of the area Hubert brings the Goidels from.  However a common origin rather than one being derived from each other is probably what Coon was getting at.  He seemed to be angling at the Irish and the SW Germans coming from some common source although he seems to suggest that Iberia itself did not have the correct beaker skeletal types to be the source.   He seems to suggest thought that the Irish differed in some degree from the British beaker folk, suggesting that the beaker folk who crossed to Britain had mixed with other NW European strains a little further east.  Late British archaeologist Humphrey Case who is an expert in the Neolithic/ Early Bronze Age wrote an assessment of the Irish Beaker period and suggested that Atlantic France was the likely source of Irish beakers and was also a vital link between Iberia and the Rhine groups (perhaps a two way flow).  Case seems to have been someone who handled a lot of the material first hand and that made him never sway from the Iberian beaker origin even when the Dutch origin model was dominant.  I have to say too that my gut feeling is that the Irish (and perhaps Atlantic British) beaker link is with NW France while most of Britain would seem more likely to have received its beaker settlers from further east closer to the Rhine where the populations may have been rather more mixed with the Corded Ware and other populations.  The current mainstream origin ideas of beakers in Iberia could be combined with the groups that met with and were influenced by the corded ware groups near the Rhine.  Certainly Richard Bradley in his book 'The prehistory of Britain and Ireland' did kind of portray the more easterly beaker groups as sort of hybrid of beaker-corded ware influences and these were the ones who seem to have settled southern and eastern Britain but not Ireland (and Atlantic Britain?).  Ireland seems to have a beaker culture which is more reflective of NW/Atlantic France where the corded ware burial traditions were not present. 

I also wonder if this had an effect on genes and languages.  Its hard to believe (although not impossible) that a group expanding from Iberia (beakers) was speaking the same language as a group with the oldest dates from Poland.  There origin points as currently accepted is just so different.  Jean has put some interesting ideas to close that gap but I personally would need a lot more evidence to be convinced.  


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 12, 2010, 07:38:19 PM
A couple of days ago someone posted over on our Yahoo group that his father-in-law, surname Fritzler, kit 149869, recently got his L21+ result. Fritzler traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia, near the modern village of Kamenskiy (near the city of Saratov), among the "Volga German" settlers.

I have tried to get this first Fritzler to join the R-L21 Plus Project, but thus far he has not done so. However, I found another Fritzler in Ysearch, S3V62, who matches him exactly at 37 markers and who also traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia.

This second Fritzler (Ysearch S3V62) has joined the project and is currently awaiting L21 test results.

It would be very interesting to test some more males who trace their ancestry to the village of Grimm, Russia.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on August 12, 2010, 08:31:01 PM
I await the Grimm Results ;)

Thanks for keeping us posted Rich


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 13, 2010, 10:27:44 AM
A couple of days ago someone posted over on our Yahoo group that his father-in-law, surname Fritzler, kit 149869, recently got his L21+ result. Fritzler traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia, near the modern village of Kamenskiy (near the city of Saratov), among the "Volga German" settlers.

I have tried to get this first Fritzler to join the R-L21 Plus Project, but thus far he has not done so. However, I found another Fritzler in Ysearch, S3V62, who matches him exactly at 37 markers and who also traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia.

This second Fritzler (Ysearch S3V62) has joined the project and is currently awaiting L21 test results.

It would be very interesting to test some more males who trace their ancestry to the village of Grimm, Russia.
Is Fritzler, kit 149869, in any of the FTDNA projects?  I couldn't find him in the Russian, Russian-Ukraine or Russian-Slavic projects.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 13, 2010, 10:59:18 AM

Is Fritzler, kit 149869, in any of the FTDNA projects?  I couldn't find him in the Russian, Russian-Ukraine or Russian-Slavic projects.

I haven't been able to find him either. I was hoping he would join us, but he hasn't done so yet.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on August 13, 2010, 08:27:55 PM
There is one member in the  "Fritzler" Group Project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Fritzler


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 13, 2010, 08:32:19 PM
Another new German R-L21 joined the project today: Eichhorn, kit N15312. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. I'm still waiting to find out exactly where his ancestor came from. He doesn't have a Ysearch entry yet.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 14, 2010, 07:44:24 AM
Another new German R-L21 joined the project today: Eichhorn, kit N15312. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. I'm still waiting to find out exactly where his ancestor came from. He doesn't have a Ysearch entry yet.

Still no Ysearch entry, but apparently Eichhorn's ancestor came from Thüringen in Central Germany. Hopefully he will create a Ysearch entry shortly.


Title: Re:intro German R-L21*
Post by: A.D. on August 15, 2010, 09:38:05 PM
cold it be possable that L-21 could have been introduced with monks and their scholars from Britain and Ireland as the 'dark ages' even from the old Celtic church .it differed from the roman church I'm not sure if celibacy was compulsory


Title: Re:intro German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 15, 2010, 09:46:24 PM
cold it be possable that L-21 could have been introduced with monks and their scholars from Britain and Ireland as the 'dark ages' even from the old Celtic church .it differed from the roman church I'm not sure if celibacy was compulsory

No! There's too much of it in Germany for that to be the case.

We've been round and round with the whole "randy Irish monks" bit. It's kind of a sore subject.

Besides, as a newcomer to this forum, you missed a lot of discussions. Had you been here, you would have known already that L21 haplotypes in France and Germany are the oldest L21 haplotypes, older than those in the British Isles.

That means that L21 probably originated on the Continent and spread from there to the British Isles.


Title: Re:intro German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 16, 2010, 08:13:44 PM
cold it be possable that L-21 could have been introduced with monks and their scholars from Britain and Ireland as the 'dark ages' even from the old Celtic church .it differed from the roman church I'm not sure if celibacy was compulsory

No! There's too much of it in Germany for that to be the case.

We've been round and round with the whole "randy Irish monks" bit. It's kind of a sore subject.

Besides, as a newcomer to this forum, you missed a lot of discussions. Had you been here, you would have known already that L21 haplotypes in France and Germany are the oldest L21 haplotypes, older than those in the British Isles.

That means that L21 probably originated on the Continent and spread from there to the British Isles.
Deja-vu all over again.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: A.D. on August 16, 2010, 09:33:45 PM
sorry guys  as you say i'm new my prevous studies were mainly from 'phisical anthropology' sites and forums which led me to give up. you should read some of their ideas for some light relief. maybe not  on 2nd thoughts alot of it is just insulting
i find this site educated and balanced as a whole and i get abit over enthuseasatic
i'm only here to learn


Title: Re:intro German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 17, 2010, 12:36:40 AM
cold it be possable that L-21 could have been introduced with monks and their scholars from Britain and Ireland as the 'dark ages' even from the old Celtic church .it differed from the roman church I'm not sure if celibacy was compulsory
No! There's too much of it in Germany for that to be the case.
We've been round and round with the whole "randy Irish monks" bit. It's kind of a sore subject.
....
Deja-vu all over again.
Hey, I've run into another case of this over in the dna-forums.  Even though I've shown him that 35% of Norway (in the Norwegian DNA project) is R1b1b2 he is still talking about the Viking slave trade as a major reason.

His illustration is the current status of minority populations in South Carolina. His illustration brings a whole new set of fallacies but I won't go into modern politically sensitive subjects.

Come to think of it,  this whole dna-forums conversation started up because he was criticizing you, Goldenhind, and I responded that I understood or supported your position or something of the like.  

This is beginning to remind me of the world of politics.  When someone disagrees, rather than arguing the point and logic, they just starting attacking assigned or suspected motivations in the other party.  It usually takes a 2nd or 3rd layer of counter-points before the deterioration in the argument begins, but I think most observers see what is happening when a person runs out of logic or evidence.

P.S.  RMS2, this guy was throwing dirt at the Normandy project too.  Seems that you should have some more I1 and R1a1 in the Normandy project for the data to be valid.


Title: Re:intro German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 17, 2010, 09:12:44 AM
. . .
P.S.  RMS2, this guy was throwing dirt at the Normandy project too.  Seems that you should have some more I1 and R1a1 in the Normandy project for the data to be valid.

He's probably a guy I turned down for membership!

Dna-forums bites anyway.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 17, 2010, 09:13:34 AM
sorry guys  as you say i'm new my prevous studies were mainly from 'phisical anthropology' sites and forums which led me to give up. you should read some of their ideas for some light relief. maybe not  on 2nd thoughts alot of it is just insulting
i find this site educated and balanced as a whole and i get abit over enthuseasatic
i'm only here to learn


No problem, buddy. It doesn't hurt to suggest possibilities.


Title: Re:intro German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on August 17, 2010, 04:38:17 PM
cold it be possable that L-21 could have been introduced with monks and their scholars from Britain and Ireland as the 'dark ages' even from the old Celtic church .it differed from the roman church I'm not sure if celibacy was compulsory
No! There's too much of it in Germany for that to be the case.
We've been round and round with the whole "randy Irish monks" bit. It's kind of a sore subject.
....
Deja-vu all over again.
Hey, I've run into another case of this over in the dna-forums.  Even though I've shown him that 35% of Norway (in the Norwegian DNA project) is R1b1b2 he is still talking about the Viking slave trade as a major reason.

His illustration is the current status of minority populations in South Carolina. His illustration brings a whole new set of fallacies but I won't go into modern politically sensitive subjects.

Come to think of it,  this whole dna-forums conversation started up because he was criticizing you, Goldenhind, and I responded that I understood or supported your position or something of the like.  

This is beginning to remind me of the world of politics.  When someone disagrees, rather than arguing the point and logic, they just starting attacking assigned or suspected motivations in the other party.  It usually takes a 2nd or 3rd layer of counter-points before the deterioration in the argument begins, but I think most observers see what is happening when a person runs out of logic or evidence.

P.S.  RMS2, this guy was throwing dirt at the Normandy project too.  Seems that you should have some more I1 and R1a1 in the Normandy project for the data to be valid.
That is precisely why I have given up with that forum, at least for the time being. I no longer care what these sort of people think.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 18, 2010, 08:34:49 PM
The place started out well back in the summer/fall of 2006. It went downhill from there. By 2008 it wasn't worth a flip.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 24, 2010, 06:34:32 PM
Another new German R-L21 joined the R-L21 Plus Project today: Hilgers, kit 177416 (no Ysearch yet). His ancestor came from Gohr (just south of Düsseldorf) in Nordrhein-Westfalen.

No close matches beyond 12 markers.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on August 24, 2010, 09:47:30 PM
Another new German R-L21 joined the R-L21 Plus Project today: Hilgers, kit 177416 (no Ysearch yet). His ancestor came from Gohr (just south of Düsseldorf) in Nordrhein-Westfalen.

No close matches beyond 12 markers.

I think the last couple of L21 have come from that state, right? It looks like it's filling in a bit.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on August 25, 2010, 03:54:15 AM
Another new German R-L21 joined the R-L21 Plus Project today: Hilgers, kit 177416 (no Ysearch yet). His ancestor came from Gohr (just south of Düsseldorf) in Nordrhein-Westfalen.

No close matches beyond 12 markers.

I think the last couple of L21 have come from that state, right? It looks like it's filling in a bit.

We have a few there. According to Hubert, that was the Urheimat of the Goidels.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 04, 2010, 07:23:24 AM
A couple of days ago someone posted over on our Yahoo group that his father-in-law, surname Fritzler, kit 149869, recently got his L21+ result. Fritzler traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia, near the modern village of Kamenskiy (near the city of Saratov), among the "Volga German" settlers.

I have tried to get this first Fritzler to join the R-L21 Plus Project, but thus far he has not done so. However, I found another Fritzler in Ysearch, S3V62, who matches him exactly at 37 markers and who also traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia.

This second Fritzler (Ysearch S3V62) has joined the project and is currently awaiting L21 test results.

It would be very interesting to test some more males who trace their ancestry to the village of Grimm, Russia.

Fritzler, kit 116239, Ysearch S3V62, got his L21+ result last night.

Fritzler's only close match beyond 12 markers is the other Fritzler, kit 149869, mentioned above.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 04, 2010, 09:46:06 AM
Fritzler, kit 116239, Ysearch S3V62, got his L21+ result last night.
Fritzler's only close match beyond 12 markers is the other Fritzler, kit 149869, mentioned above.
Thanks.  What project do you see 149869 in?


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on September 04, 2010, 06:11:32 PM
Fritzler, kit 116239, Ysearch S3V62, got his L21+ result last night.
Fritzler's only close match beyond 12 markers is the other Fritzler, kit 149869, mentioned above.
Thanks.  What project do you see 149869 in?

I haven't seen him in any. I was told by his son-in-law that he got an L21+ result.

Funny how these "rare" L21+ Germans keep popping up.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 13, 2011, 08:53:14 PM
A new German R-L21 joined the R-L21 Plus Project a few days ago: Wiegandt, kit E13013, whose ancestor came from Halle in Sachsen-Anhalt in eastern Germany. He doesn't have a Ysearch entry yet.

We have a couple of other members with similar surnames, but they don't match each other.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on January 14, 2011, 09:22:10 PM
Wow, that's definitely Eastern Germany. Great find again, Rich!


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 14, 2011, 10:19:30 PM
Wow, that's definitely Eastern Germany. Great find again, Rich!

Oh, I didn't find him; he found us. This one is a German citizen, too.

I didn't recruit him; he tested on his own.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on April 16, 2011, 01:59:31 PM
A new R-L21 in the Germany Y-DNA Project: Gross, kit 60726.

I'm trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

He's in the Germany Project's "R-P312*" category. I'm guessing he got a P312+ result back before testing for L21 existed and then just recently ordered FTDNA's new Deep Clade upgrade.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 26, 2011, 01:35:26 PM
We have a new German R-L21: Thien, kit E12857. His ancestor came from Hopsten in Nordrhein-Westfalen. No Ysearch entry yet. That's our second with ancestry in Nordrhein-Westfalen in the last week or so.

The low frequency of L21 in Myres' German sample is perplexing to me, given the fact that we seem to have plenty of Germans (including current German citizens) in the R-L21 Plus Project.

It's weird.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: cwrigh28 on June 30, 2011, 03:28:01 PM
Hey everyone, new to this forum.  Found this thread after everyone was telling me that I am a Celt over at 23andme.  They classified me as R1b1b2a1a2f*.  My oldest paternal ancestor was Frederick Reith who was born in 1836 in Hannover. 

Do any other groups have this amount of Drama?  L-21 seems to be a difficult classification if you say you are of German ancestry, lol.

Funny thing is I don't really care whether I am a Celt or Germanic; there seems to be a blurred line in Caesar's Gallic Wars.

Plus, both Celts and Germanics have /red hair and a lot do blue/green eyes; seems like they share more in common than differences.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 30, 2011, 06:29:10 PM
Hey everyone, new to this forum.  Found this thread after everyone was telling me that I am a Celt over at 23andme.  They classified me as R1b1b2a1a2f*.  My oldest paternal ancestor was Frederick Reith who was born in 1836 in Hannover. 

Do any other groups have this amount of Drama?  L-21 seems to be a difficult classification if you say you are of German ancestry, lol.

Funny thing is I don't really care whether I am a Celt or Germanic; there seems to be a blurred line in Caesar's Gallic Wars.

Plus, both Celts and Germanics have /red hair and a lot do blue/green eyes; seems like they share more in common than differences.

Are you also a Family Tree DNA customer? If so, please join the R-L21 Plus Project.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?section=yresults)

If not, please consider ordering a y-dna test (even a 12-marker test would do) from Family Tree DNA so you can join our project.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: NealtheRed on June 30, 2011, 08:12:22 PM
Hey everyone, new to this forum.  Found this thread after everyone was telling me that I am a Celt over at 23andme.  They classified me as R1b1b2a1a2f*.  My oldest paternal ancestor was Frederick Reith who was born in 1836 in Hannover. 

Do any other groups have this amount of Drama?  L-21 seems to be a difficult classification if you say you are of German ancestry, lol.

Funny thing is I don't really care whether I am a Celt or Germanic; there seems to be a blurred line in Caesar's Gallic Wars.

Plus, both Celts and Germanics have /red hair and a lot do blue/green eyes; seems like they share more in common than differences.

Welcome! As Rich said, it would be great if you were to test at FTDNA and join the project there. It is the most extensive database of L21+ men out there, in my opinion.

I think that the Romans were confused in many cases as to who was Celtic or Germanic. Like you say, they shared some physical similarities, one of which was the custom of drinking uncultured milk.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 30, 2011, 08:34:32 PM
Place name studies (including geographical features like rivers) and archaeological discoveries both demonstrate that much of western Germany was Celtic at one time. It was pressure from the Romans that weakened the Celts in Germany and made them vulnerable to incursions of Germanics from the north and east.

Breaking the power of the Celts also removed them as a buffer for the Roman Empire.

I believe it was Gerhard Herm who said that the Germans are actually more Celtic than German.

Although I do think it is possible to generalize and call L21 a mostly Celtic marker, I also think it would be a mistake to take such generalizations too far and imagine that L21 always and everywhere was exclusively Celtic or even Celtic to begin with.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on June 30, 2011, 09:43:57 PM
Although I do think it is possible to generalize and call L21 a mostly Celtic marker, I also think it would be a mistake to take such generalizations too far and imagine that L21 always and everywhere was exclusively Celtic or even Celtic to begin with.

Agreed. I think the not inconsiderable presence of L21 in Scandinavia has been there since the Nordic Bronze Age, and strongly suggests L21 was an elelment amongst the earliest Germanics.

Many people (referring to those at 23andme who told cwrigh28 he must be Celtic) like simplistic answers to complex issues.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: cwrigh28 on June 30, 2011, 10:01:38 PM
@rms2....just sent my ftdna off in the mail, a little unsatisfied with 23andme.....


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on June 30, 2011, 11:59:04 PM
@rms2....just sent my ftdna off in the mail, a little unsatisfied with 23andme.....

Excellent! I hope you will join the R-L21 Plus Project as soon as you can.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on January 24, 2012, 04:04:34 PM
We got a new German R-L21 yesterday: Schaefer, kit H1922, Ysearch ve6ae. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. His ancestor came from Linz am Rhein in Rheinland-Pfalz.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 16, 2012, 12:20:02 PM
We got a new German R-L21 yesterday: Schaefer, kit H1922, Ysearch ve6ae. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. His ancestor came from Linz am Rhein in Rheinland-Pfalz.
I just noticed a new L21+ in the German Language project.

fN33244 Georg Nachtmann, b.1844, Röthenbach, Westerwaldkreis, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 16, 2012, 02:05:21 PM
Even if its not been picked up by some sampling like Myres et al, it seems almost impossible that there isnt some sort of concentration of L21 in the Rhineland.  Too many have come up in and around the same german provence for this to be chance.  The Rhineland is of course the only part of Germany west of the Rhine. 


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on February 16, 2012, 05:53:14 PM
We got a new German R-L21 yesterday: Schaefer, kit H1922, Ysearch ve6ae. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. His ancestor came from Linz am Rhein in Rheinland-Pfalz.
I just noticed a new L21+ in the German Language project.

fN33244 Georg Nachtmann, b.1844, Röthenbach, Westerwaldkreis, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany

Thanks! I'll have to try to recruit him.

We also just had one join by the surname of Benz (as in Mercedes Benz).

I kind of quit looking at the Germany Project after first Myres and then Busby concluded there isn't much L21 in Germany - despite the fact that we seem to keep getting new German members from time to time.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: OConnor on February 17, 2012, 07:42:51 AM
could L21 have entered the Rhine in the far north and travelled south into Germany?


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 17, 2012, 01:51:43 PM
could L21 have entered the Rhine in the far north and travelled south into Germany?

I think the really striking thing is just how much German L21 seems to be in only one of the states - the Rhineland Palatinate.  As well as being on the middle Rhine the main thing, it was also largely west of the Rhine (unique for Germany) and was of course within the Roman empire which is not true of most of Germany. 


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on February 17, 2012, 03:55:51 PM
could L21 have entered the Rhine in the far north and travelled south into Germany?

I think the really striking thing is just how much German L21 seems to be in only one of the states - the Rhineland Palatinate.  As well as being on the middle Rhine the main thing, it was also largely west of the Rhine (unique for Germany) and was of course within the Roman empire which is not true of most of Germany. 

Some of this may be due to the amount of emigration from that area to the USA, which is the primary source of most DNA testing.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 17, 2012, 05:19:05 PM
could L21 have entered the Rhine in the far north and travelled south into Germany?

I think the really striking thing is just how much German L21 seems to be in only one of the states - the Rhineland Palatinate.  As well as being on the middle Rhine the main thing, it was also largely west of the Rhine (unique for Germany) and was of course within the Roman empire which is not true of most of Germany. 

Some of this may be due to the amount of emigration from that area to the USA, which is the primary source of most DNA testing.

I agree that that can explain why the area is overrepresented for ALL clades but I cant see how this would effect the relative numbers of various clades testing from Rhineland origins.  U152 had a big head start on L21 so how come L21 fairs well compared to U152 in the Rhineland when you look at the FTDNA project maps?  This seems so different from what Myres showed.  I can conceive any way that L21 could be overrepresented in the FTDNA projects in terms of the Rhineland. 


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: GoldenHind on February 18, 2012, 09:16:34 PM
could L21 have entered the Rhine in the far north and travelled south into Germany?

I think the really striking thing is just how much German L21 seems to be in only one of the states - the Rhineland Palatinate.  As well as being on the middle Rhine the main thing, it was also largely west of the Rhine (unique for Germany) and was of course within the Roman empire which is not true of most of Germany.  

Some of this may be due to the amount of emigration from that area to the USA, which is the primary source of most DNA testing.

I agree that that can explain why the area is overrepresented for ALL clades but I cant see how this would effect the relative numbers of various clades testing from Rhineland origins.  U152 had a big head start on L21 so how come L21 fairs well compared to U152 in the Rhineland when you look at the FTDNA project maps?  This seems so different from what Myres showed.  I can conceive any way that L21 could be overrepresented in the FTDNA projects in terms of the Rhineland.  

Actually, what I was suggesting is that if we had equally large results in FTDNA projects for other regions of Germany, we might well find that that there is more L21 in those regions than is apparent in Myres' data as well.

I would however expect the Rhineland to have the heaviest concentration of L21 in Germany, just from what we know about its present day distribution- ie the concentration increases as one goes westerly.


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: Mark Jost on February 23, 2012, 11:56:37 AM
I was checking out the new SNP map on FtDNA for L21 and noticed a cluster of over a dozen Guys in western Germany in an area from Luxemburg to Frankfurt then southward. Anyone checked these out?

https://my.familytreedna.com/snp-map.aspx


Title: Re: German R-L21*
Post by: rms2 on July 18, 2012, 10:10:05 PM
We have a new German member of the R-L21 Plus Project this evening: Callsen, kit 225229, Ysearch V3YJU, with a mdka from Steinberg, Saxony (Sachsen), Germany, not too far from the Czech border.

He has just 37 markers but no close matches at that level.