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Title: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 21, 2008, 05:49:16 PM
Okay, we have two French R-L21*s now, Gignoux in Grenoble in the French Alps, and Sicher in Drain, between Angers and Nantes.

When I say "in", I am speaking of where their most distant y ancestors came from, not of where the men who have been dna tested currently live.

Check the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: secherbernard on November 23, 2008, 04:07:05 AM
I begin on this forum, and i am the second French L21.
My surname is Secher, but the oldest form of my surname is Sicher. My oldest paternal ancestor was Martin Sicher. He lived at Drain between Nantes and Angers. He born about 1560 and died in march 19th, 1624 in Drain.
I wonder if there is a link between my surname and the Sicher of Austria/Switzerland/North Italia.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 23, 2008, 02:31:21 PM
I begin on this forum, and i am the second French L21.
My surname is Secher, but the oldest form of my surname is Sicher. My oldest paternal ancestor was Martin Sicher. He lived at Drain between Nantes and Angers. He born about 1560 and died in march 19th, 1624 in Drain.
I wonder if there is a link between my surname and the Sicher of Austria/Switzerland/North Italia.

I have wondered about that, too. I wish we could get some Swiss-Austrian-North Italian Sichers tested!

Glad to see you here, Bernard!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 29, 2008, 10:56:18 AM
There's a new French R-L21* to report: Hamon from Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt in NW France, Placemark 40 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on November 29, 2008, 09:24:36 PM
Okay, we have two French R-L21*s now, Gignoux in Grenoble in the French Alps, and Sicher in Drain, between Angers and Nantes.

When I say "in", I am speaking of where their most distant y ancestors came from, not of where the men who have been dna tested currently live.

Check the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature.
I didn't realize the Vikings slavers were able to sail all the way into the Alps.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 30, 2008, 01:05:38 PM
Okay, we have two French R-L21*s now, Gignoux in Grenoble in the French Alps, and Sicher in Drain, between Angers and Nantes.

When I say "in", I am speaking of where their most distant y ancestors came from, not of where the men who have been dna tested currently live.

Check the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature.
I didn't realize the Vikings slavers were able to sail all the way into the Alps.

They got around, I guess!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 30, 2008, 01:07:37 PM
One of our French members just went R-L21* on us: LeCom, an actual Breton this time, Placemark 44 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below.

L21+ is leading L21- in France 5 to 2 by my count.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: secherbernard on December 09, 2008, 11:40:50 AM
My deep clade-R test is not finished, but i get some new results. I am L21+ P312+ rs34276300+ M222- M37- U152-


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on December 09, 2008, 04:59:57 PM
If you take all the slow mutating markers from FTDNA (an idea that I came across via Eochaidh) and do a Ysearch on the French positives, two of them show up with mostly positive matches in Germany, were as the other two show up with almost no matches at all.

Not something that suggests back migration from the Isles


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on December 09, 2008, 05:44:04 PM
Sorry forgot to say that this was done with the first 25 markers

does anybody care to comment if this is a valid way of doing comparisons, seems to produce interesting results, highlights Daniel as poss. Irish background for instance.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 09, 2008, 09:17:38 PM
Sorry forgot to say that this was done with the first 25 markers

does anybody care to comment if this is a valid way of doing comparisons, seems to produce interesting results, highlights Daniel as poss. Irish background for instance.


There could be something to it. I'll have to check that out for myself. Thanks for bringing it up.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on December 09, 2008, 09:28:25 PM
Your welcome

would you like to see the Williams distribution map ?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on December 09, 2008, 09:44:54 PM
teaching granny to suck eggs here but,

if your doing it the same way as me you get 16 loci

ask to test for 16 and set the tolerance to 0

test this with the Isles, Western Europe and Easton Europe

Then try some of the Isle's results for comparison

Personally I've only tried it against English results so far


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: secherbernard on December 10, 2008, 04:36:32 AM
If you take all the slow mutating markers from FTDNA (an idea that I came across via Eochaidh) and do a Ysearch on the French positives, two of them show up with mostly positive matches in Germany, were as the other two show up with almost no matches at all.

Not something that suggests back migration from the Isles
If i compare my results on ysearch with Marth who is on L21+ of Germany, i have a genetic distance of 2 on 12 markers (he tested only 12 markers).


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on December 10, 2008, 06:35:18 AM
If i compare my results on ysearch with Marth who is on L21+ of Germany, i have a genetic distance of 2 on 12 markers (he tested only 12 markers).

Bernard if you search the on the first 16 slow markers you have only two matches one of which is a Bernard in the US, If assuming that's a coincidence with the name ?

How's the weather with you, it's very crisp here in Pays de Galles

Dave Stedman


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: secherbernard on December 10, 2008, 07:03:17 AM
I don't know what you are  calling "slow markers". Can you explain me, please?
Bernard is my first name so it 's just a coincident. My surname is Secher.

Weather is cold near Paris: some small snowflakes this morning...


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on December 10, 2008, 07:44:16 AM
Sorry, should have explained myself better

The slow markers are the ones coloured black on project pages but the first 16 are

DYS#    393, 390, 19*, 391, 426, 388, 389-1,  392, 389-2, 459a, 459b, 455, 454, 447, 437, 448


I was in Paris one Easter and it was freezing, almost the coldest I've been.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: secherbernard on December 13, 2008, 02:42:26 PM
Rich, there is a french in less on your L21 map. Only four french L21 now. Where is th fifth?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 13, 2008, 04:29:43 PM
Rich, there is a french in less on your L21 map. Only four french L21 now. Where is th fifth?

That one succumbed to the argument on dna forums that the Purvaiance of Saintonge was born in Scotland. She (the lady who sponsored her male relative's testing) decided she can only prove her lineage back to a man born in Virginia. She apparently had no real good paper trail to the man in Saintonge.

So, I decided to take that one off the map. I also moved that entry (Provins, Provin) to the "R-L21 Colonial" category on our project's "Y Results" page.

With David Faux dogging every L21+ result on the Continent, I will only add those who are pretty sure of their origins from now on, especially "colonials," like us Americans.

All the French on the R-L21* Map now are solidly French, and L21+ still leads L21- in France 4 to 2.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on December 14, 2008, 11:08:03 AM
I do not call what David Faux does “dogging”. I call it bullying. He did the same thing in 2007 with R-U152. The longer this man is allowed to represent the professional genetic genealogy testing companies and/or scientific industry in our community without anyone from those genetic communities publicly challenging his expertise or credentials then they are a joke, nothing but a joke, an absolute joke. 

Glenn Allen Nolen


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 14, 2008, 12:10:33 PM
I do not call what David Faux does “dogging”. I call it bullying. He did the same thing in 2007 with R-U152. The longer this man is allowed to represent the professional genetic genealogy testing companies and/or scientific industry in our community without anyone from those genetic communities publicly challenging his expertise or credentials then they are a joke, nothing but a joke, an absolute joke. 

Glenn Allen Nolen

He doesn't represent any of the companies anymore, although he was one of the founders of Ethnoancestry. He's just a private poster, but a prolific one, with apparently lots of time and money on his hands.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 15, 2008, 08:54:46 AM
We added another Breton member yesterday, surname Le Bras, but he doesn't appear by name on our y results page because he has not yet supplied the name of his most distant ancestor on his "User Preferences" page.

This new member is P312+ L21+ U152- thus far in the results of his Deep Clade-R and is still awaiting the rest of his results. Theoretically he could still be M222+, but that doesn't seem likely.

Of course, I don't add anyone to my R-L21* Map or an R-L21 category until I am sure he is negative for everything downstream of L21.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Chuck Blandford on December 15, 2008, 04:37:58 PM
Quote
We added another Breton member yesterday

The French are filling in nicely, but precious few L21+ from Belgium, Netherlands and Germany.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: vtilroe on December 15, 2008, 08:51:55 PM
Quote
We added another Breton member yesterday

The French are filling in nicely, but precious few L21+ from Belgium, Netherlands and Germany.


Yeah, and I'm rather upset about that!  :)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Chuck Blandford on December 15, 2008, 09:59:44 PM
Very interesting and numerous results today; were you in there?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: vtilroe on December 15, 2008, 10:09:06 PM
Very interesting and numerous results today; were you in there?
Grrr.. Not that I can see.  Rick mentioned elsewhere that only one Netherlands sample came back, with a negative result.  I think it was the one in the R1b-NS cluster.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 16, 2008, 09:00:43 PM
Quote
We added another Breton member yesterday

The French are filling in nicely, but precious few L21+ from Belgium, Netherlands and Germany.



Well, we have five L21+ of German origin now and a Swiss L21+ from Zürich.

I wouldn't get too excited yet about what we don't have. Remember, L21 was just discovered in October and is not yet a regular and official part of FTDNA's Deep Clade-R.

It takes awhile to collect data from dna testing, especially when genetic genealogy is dominated by persons of British Isles ancestry.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 19, 2008, 11:04:24 PM
I was able to add Le Bras to the "R-L21 W. Europe" category and to the R-L21* Map this evening, since he finally got his M222- result.

His ancestor came from Brasparts in Bretagne, France.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on January 21, 2009, 09:02:56 PM
I think I mentioned elsewhere that Bontron-Major of Montussaint, near the Swiss border, is R-L21*. See Placemark 87 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 05, 2009, 09:09:25 PM
Chartier went L21+ this evening. I've asked him to supply the name, birth date, birthplace, etc., of his most distant ancestor so I can add him to the R-L21* Map.

The World Names Profiler has the surname Chartier all over France.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: didier on March 06, 2009, 02:15:32 PM
I looked at geopatronyme.com :
http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=chartier&submit=Valider&client=cdip
Chartier appears to be nearly absent from the south and east of France with a kind of hotspot in a large western area. (of course Paris is a hotspot but this should be ignored).


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 06, 2009, 02:38:38 PM
I looked at geopatronyme.com :
http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=chartier&submit=Valider&client=cdip
Chartier appears to be nearly absent from the south and east of France with a kind of hotspot in a large western area. (of course Paris is a hotspot but this should be ignored).

Chartier himself is from Quebec, as I recall. Was there a particular area of France that contributed most to the colonization of what is now Canada?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: didier on March 06, 2009, 02:42:34 PM
Yes, precisely that western part of France. (with some exceptions , of course)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 07, 2009, 09:37:36 AM
Yes, precisely that western part of France. (with some exceptions , of course)

Ah, okay. I have not heard from Chartier himself yet.

From what I can see of L21 in France thus far (and things could change), it seems to be split between a mainly Breton group in the northwest and a couple of Alpine results in the southeast, very close to our Germans and our one Swiss (who is German-Swiss).

There seems to be a substantial amount of L21 in Western Germany (more than in France, apparently), so perhaps we will see some spillover into Eastern France.

It is tempting to attribute the northwestern French L21 to British immigration during the closing days of the Roman Empire and thereafter and to the known Irish incursions there in much the same period. I'm not sure that is correct, though. It could be L21 was already present there or even that Armorica (Brittany) served as the jumping off point for the entry of some L21 into Britain and Ireland. The flow of L21 between northwestern France and the British Isles could have been a two-way affair.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Chuck Blandford on March 08, 2009, 03:35:54 AM
Quote
It could be L21 was already present there or even that Armorica (Brittany) served as the jumping off point for the entry of some L21 into Britain and Ireland. The flow of L21 between northwestern France and the British Isles could have been a two-way affair.

.  Cunliffe in his book “The Ancient Celts” page 220, illustration 178 states “Distribution of Dressel 1A amphorae in north-western Gaul and southern Britain, indicating the trade axis operating in early first century BC”.  This would be pre Roman invasion but was stimulated by Roman economic trade.  The findings are from Hengistbury Head (coast of Dorset, England) and the coast of Breton and various sites in Brittany.
My closest 67 matches seem to be in western France and my earliest known ancestor was born in Dorset.  So I find this to be a very interesting connection.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21*


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 08, 2009, 01:10:41 PM
Quote
It could be L21 was already present there or even that Armorica (Brittany) served as the jumping off point for the entry of some L21 into Britain and Ireland. The flow of L21 between northwestern France and the British Isles could have been a two-way affair.

.  Cunliffe in his book “The Ancient Celts” page 220, illustration 178 states “Distribution of Dressel 1A amphorae in north-western Gaul and southern Britain, indicating the trade axis operating in early first century BC”.  This would be pre Roman invasion but was stimulated by Roman economic trade.  The findings are from Hengistbury Head (coast of Dorset, England) and the coast of Breton and various sites in Brittany.
My closest 67 matches seem to be in western France and my earliest known ancestor was born in Dorset.  So I find this to be a very interesting connection.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21*



I do, too, and I think it goes way back. One of the reasons the Britons fleeing Britannia found Brittany such a congenial spot is because they already had cousins there.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on March 08, 2009, 01:51:10 PM
Quote
It could be L21 was already present there or even that Armorica (Brittany) served as the jumping off point for the entry of some L21 into Britain and Ireland. The flow of L21 between northwestern France and the British Isles could have been a two-way affair.

.  Cunliffe in his book “The Ancient Celts” page 220, illustration 178 states “Distribution of Dressel 1A amphorae in north-western Gaul and southern Britain, indicating the trade axis operating in early first century BC”.  This would be pre Roman invasion but was stimulated by Roman economic trade.  The findings are from Hengistbury Head (coast of Dorset, England) and the coast of Breton and various sites in Brittany.
My closest 67 matches seem to be in western France and my earliest known ancestor was born in Dorset.  So I find this to be a very interesting connection.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21*



I do, too, and I think it goes way back. One of the reasons the Britons fleeing Britannia found Brittany such a congenial spot is because they already had cousins there.
Well, they certainly would have been able to speak the language. I understand that Welsh and Breton is still mutually intelligible.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 08, 2009, 02:31:47 PM
Well, they certainly would have been able to speak the language. I understand that Welsh and Breton is still mutually intelligible.

True, and I think they still play bagpipes in Brittany, although maybe that is something they decided to copy from the Scots (although I know bagpipes were once widespread in Europe).


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: embPA on March 08, 2009, 03:32:31 PM
Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 08, 2009, 07:14:39 PM
Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 


Yes, and there's a Cornish R-P312*, Williams, in Penryn.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Chuck Blandford on March 08, 2009, 09:40:18 PM
Quote
Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 

I noticed that also.  I found a very similar Ysearch member in Wiltshire but have not been able to contact him.  The only name identification historically I have found is in southern England.  I have not been able to find any close haplotype relation to Irish or Scot but show a closer similarity to western Europe.

There are lots of P Celt structures remaining in southern England but almost no L21.  Maybe the Romans, Saxons, Normans etc. ran it out or diluted it relative to Ireland but that doesn't seem consistent with the virtual absence of L21 in Cornwall.  I tend to think (hope, imagine) that downstream L21 SNP will differentiate Q Celt and P Celt.  Perhaps the Irish, Scots and Northern Euope Q Celt L21 was the more aggressive and larger, and the southern P Celt strain left less of a mark.

One can only wait and learn.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Craig Gaston on March 09, 2009, 10:59:16 AM
Excuse me for jumping in here but I wanted to say how much this topic is of interest to our Gaston project. We now have about a dozen members whose EKA was born in 17th century Ulster but our family tradition and name suggest that our ancestor was from France. I tested positive for L21 and I assume the same would be the case for our other members in this lineage. We have four Gastons (surnames) from France in our project so far: 1 is R1b1b2, another J2 and a third E1b1b1. We haven't received the results for the fourth one yet. His ancestors are from St. Pierre and Miquelon.

Notre "cousin" français qui est R1b1b2 aimerait peut-être communiquer avec un de vous. Il habite Les Landes et ne sait pas encore s'il est positif pour L21. Il a environs 15/37 différences avec nous, les Gaston d'Ulster. C'est ça qui me fait croire qu'il ne sera pas L21, mais on ne sait jamais.

We are looking for other French Gastons to join our project. Any help would be appreciated. It appears that there are only about 500 Gastons (surname) in France.

Craig Gaston
Gaston project administrator


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on March 09, 2009, 02:16:54 PM
Quote
Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 

I noticed that also.  I found a very similar Ysearch member in Wiltshire but have not been able to contact him.  The only name identification historically I have found is in southern England.  I have not been able to find any close haplotype relation to Irish or Scot but show a closer similarity to western Europe.

One can only wait and learn.


I assume you are aware that Blandford is a place name and apparently an unusually rare one in England. I can only find Blandford Forum and Blandford St. Mary, both in Dorset. It is very probable that your surname originated there.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on March 09, 2009, 03:12:25 PM
Quote
Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 

I noticed that also.  I found a very similar Ysearch member in Wiltshire but have not been able to contact him.  The only name identification historically I have found is in southern England.  I have not been able to find any close haplotype relation to Irish or Scot but show a closer similarity to western Europe.

One can only wait and learn.


I assume you are aware that Blandford is a place name and apparently an unusually rare one in England. I can only find Blandford Forum and Blandford St. Mary, both in Dorset. It is very probable that your surname originated there.

And indeed this is the area that the name is most common


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 09, 2009, 07:17:52 PM
Quote
Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 

I noticed that also.  I found a very similar Ysearch member in Wiltshire but have not been able to contact him.  The only name identification historically I have found is in southern England.  I have not been able to find any close haplotype relation to Irish or Scot but show a closer similarity to western Europe.

There are lots of P Celt structures remaining in southern England but almost no L21.  Maybe the Romans, Saxons, Normans etc. ran it out or diluted it relative to Ireland but that doesn't seem consistent with the virtual absence of L21 in Cornwall.  I tend to think (hope, imagine) that downstream L21 SNP will differentiate Q Celt and P Celt.  Perhaps the Irish, Scots and Northern Euope Q Celt L21 was the more aggressive and larger, and the southern P Celt strain left less of a mark.

One can only wait and learn.



I don't think there is any shortage of L21 in southern England. Give it time. It will start to show up.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Chuck Blandford on March 09, 2009, 07:29:39 PM

Quote
And indeed this is the area that the name is most common


The name appears in the Doomsday Book albeit with a slightly different spelling.  The location of Blandford is on the River Stour in Dorset at an ancient crossing for trade to London.  I don’t know which came first the family name or the location name, but the L21 suggests an early western Celt or pre Celt origin.  I find very little similarity to Irish and Scot haplotypes which suggests to me that the family came from western Europe as part of the P Celt migration which had much help from Atlantic and western continent trade, Roman invasion and retreat and Belgae invasion etc, etc.  My earliest known ancestor, Thomas Blandford was born in 1648 in Dorset and he came to Maryland in 1672.  So I don’t know if the family actually lived in southern England in prehistoric times or moved there from the continent prior to coming to America.  If they lived there in 1000 BC they experienced some pretty exciting changes.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21
Ysearch EYSPZ


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on March 09, 2009, 08:36:54 PM



The name appears in the Doomsday Book albeit with a slightly different spelling.  The location of Blandford is on the River Stour in Dorset at an ancient crossing for trade to London.  I don’t know which came first the family name or the location name, but the L21 suggests an early western Celt or pre Celt origin.  I find very little similarity to Irish and Scot haplotypes which suggests to me that the family came from western Europe as part of the P Celt migration which had much help from Atlantic and western continent trade, Roman invasion and retreat and Belgae invasion etc, etc.  My earliest known ancestor, Thomas Blandford was born in 1648 in Dorset and he came to Maryland in 1672.  So I don’t know if the family actually lived in southern England in prehistoric times or moved there from the continent prior to coming to America.  If they lived there in 1000 BC they experienced some pretty exciting changes.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21
Ysearch EYSPZ


Nice bit of history, if I were to hazard a guess, I would think the place name came first, the ford element certainly seems to suggest that


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on March 09, 2009, 09:59:26 PM

Quote
And indeed this is the area that the name is most common


The name appears in the Doomsday Book albeit with a slightly different spelling.  The location of Blandford is on the River Stour in Dorset at an ancient crossing for trade to London.  I don’t know which came first the family name or the location name, but the L21 suggests an early western Celt or pre Celt origin.  I find very little similarity to Irish and Scot haplotypes which suggests to me that the family came from western Europe as part of the P Celt migration which had much help from Atlantic and western continent trade, Roman invasion and retreat and Belgae invasion etc, etc.  My earliest known ancestor, Thomas Blandford was born in 1648 in Dorset and he came to Maryland in 1672.  So I don’t know if the family actually lived in southern England in prehistoric times or moved there from the continent prior to coming to America.  If they lived there in 1000 BC they experienced some pretty exciting changes.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21
Ysearch EYSPZ

The Anglo-Saxons did not have hereditary surnames. Since the place name has an Anglo-Saxon origin, it must have existed before it was used as a surname.
While I do not dispute the possibility, even probability of a Celtic origin for your line, I don't think one can rule out an Anglo-Saxon or even Norman origin, as I suspect L21 was present in both Germany and Normandy.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Chuck Blandford on March 09, 2009, 10:23:30 PM
Quote
I don't think one can rule out an Anglo-Saxon or even Norman origin, as I suspect L21 was present in both Germany and Normandy.

I agree, I am hoping some downstream SNP will shed some light on that.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 10, 2009, 01:58:09 PM
Quote
I don't think one can rule out an Anglo-Saxon or even Norman origin, as I suspect L21 was present in both Germany and Normandy.
I agree, I am hoping some downstream SNP will shed some light on that.
Agreed.  I think I'm a case in point.  I keep feeling like I must be old Brythonic Celt, but the folklore and history for my family could easily have me as Gaellic/Old Irish or Bretonic/Norman-mixed or Norman.   Anglo-Saxon doesn't seem like quite as viable an option but who knows?   .. I still the Bell Beaker folks are the common theme.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 15, 2009, 07:19:45 AM
I was snooping around at the French Canadian Project web site and found three R-L21* I did not yet know about:

D'Arcy 72665
 
Delahoussaye  133975
 
Emery  58796


http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults)

I think someone mentioned before that D'Arcy could be an Irish surname (perhaps of Norman extraction).

Delahoussaye is only common in Rhone-Alpes, in southeastern France, in the Alps and next to Switzerland.

I contacted Doug Miller, the admin of the French Canadian Project, and he forwarded an email from me to those three men. Thus far, Emery has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. I haven't heard from the other two yet. Hopefully they will also join soon.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 15, 2009, 08:02:03 PM
Emery and D'Arcy have joined the R-L21 Plus Project, but neither traces his most distant y dna ancestor to France. D'Arcy's came from Wicklow, Ireland (just south of Dublin), and Emery's is in the "Colonial" category (like mine).

I'm still waiting on Delahoussaye.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 19, 2009, 12:17:38 PM
I still haven't heard from Delahoussaye. At this point, I guess I never will.

Anyway, it's interesting that there are quite a few small places in France called La Houssaye. It's a popular place name.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 11, 2009, 06:46:34 PM
Found another French R-L21* just a few minutes ago: Rotrou, kit E5171, here (scroll down to the Rs - the surnames are alphabetically listed):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 11, 2009, 07:22:47 PM
Found another French R-L21* just a few minutes ago: Rotrou, kit E5171, here (scroll down to the Rs - the surnames are alphabetically listed):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Apparently he's Ysearch YPDNZ, and his ancestor came from Cloyes sur le Loir, which is in north central France.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 12, 2009, 08:12:15 AM
Rotrou has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. His ancestor is on the R-L21* Map now.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: secherbernard on May 12, 2009, 12:06:07 PM
He is definitely not from Brittany. I am convinced there were L21 migration from Rhein valley to western France, may be in the same time than L21 migration from Rhein valley to British islands. So i suppose we'll find other french L21 between Rhein valley and Brittany.

Bernard


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 12, 2009, 08:28:27 PM
He is definitely not from Brittany. I am convinced there were L21 migration from Rhein valley to western France, may be in the same time than L21 migration from Rhein valley to British islands. So i suppose we'll find other french L21 between Rhein valley and Brittany.

Bernard


I could be wrong, but I think there is a lot of R-L21* in France. We just don't have enough French R1b1b2 ordering the Deep Clade-R test. As more of them order it, I think we will start to see the map of France fill in.

I wish Delahoussaye would join, but I've tried recruiting him twice now and have gotten no response.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 14, 2009, 08:19:55 AM
Delahoussaye has joined the R-L21 Plus Project!

His most distant ancestor has a VERY French name, but he was born in Louisiana, so I'm not yet able to add a pin to the map of France for him.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 23, 2009, 10:23:19 AM
Updating the list of French R-L21*.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isère, Rhône-Alpes, France (this surname is also common in Switzerland)
3. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France (surname also common in Switzerland and Austria)
4. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
5. Le Com - Châteauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
6. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
8. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
9. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
10. Delahoussaye - Louisiana, USA


Note: I have included those with clearly French surnames who are currently brickwalled in French Canada and French Louisiana because those are unique regions of well-established French heritage.

I think we will see many more French R-L21* in the future (if we can just get more Frenchmen to test!).


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 12, 2009, 10:16:36 AM
I copied this from another forum.  Cotswoldman's Ysearch is 6KDDZ.  His first 12 markers equal WAMH.   He re-projected the data on his FTDNA ancestral origins page to normalize by total population by country.

I've said this before -- they didn't call France Gaul for no reason.  Celtic author/archaeologist/linguist Henri Hubert wrote that the French language would be about what Latin would sound like if it were spoken by a Celtic.

Has anyone looked at the split of pure (or very close) WAMH folks by known  R1b1b2 subclades?  R-L21* would have to be a high %, I think.

Quote from: cotswoldman
....So the different top 10 results for my haplotype (WAMH) matches compared are...
By %
Wales 5.40%
Scotland 4.50%
Northern Ireland 4.00%
United Kingdom 4.00%
France 3.90%
Iceland 3.60%
Zimbabwe 3.44%
Belgium 3.40%
Spain 3.40%
England 3.20%
.....
By Projected Matches based on Pop
France 2,537,866
United Kingdom 2,464,492
Germany 1,641,200
England 1,634,944
Spain 1,586,506
Italy 900,265
Philippines 543,000
Netherlands 511,505
Zimbabwe 459,206
South Africa 383,200
.....
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=7630&st=0#entry113621


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: susanrosine on June 12, 2009, 12:25:48 PM
Hmmmm, I have my WAMH folk who have NOT done deep clade testing in their own WAMH group in the Wales DNA project. Maybe I'll go back in to those who have done deep clade testing and see who is WAMH, and let you know how many are L21*. I see Wales has the highest percentage in Cotswoldman's posting.

I've always assumed that as soon as we can get more of the French to test, that they will be largely R-P312* and L21*. I'd be shocked if R-U106 was the majority.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on June 12, 2009, 01:06:38 PM
Sorry to be pedantic, but I think there is a problem with how the numbers are crunched with respect to the UK.

Almost all of these people will be Americans with UK ancestry.
 
At present the distribution of people throughout England Scotland and Wales (I've left N. Ireland out as I think a lot of people wouldn't differentiate between there and Ireland) are as follows.

England       86%
Scotland        9%
Wales            5%

Where as the distribution of claimed ancestry is

England       65%
Scotland      30%
Wales            5%

Of course a good few people living in England would have Scottish and Welsh ancestor, and I suspect not all the people who claim to come from Scotland really did, but these figures show a greater proportion of Scots emigrated to the US than English, which I think is an historical fact anyway, and WAMH is as the figures show more common in Scotland and Wales than England, thus over blowing the total estimate for WAMH in the UK .


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: susanrosine on June 12, 2009, 02:27:50 PM
Sorry to be pedantic, but I think there is a problem with how the numbers are crunched with respect to the UK.

Almost all of these people will be Americans with UK ancestry.
 
At present the distribution of people throughout England Scotland and Wales (I've left N. Ireland out as I think a lot of people wouldn't differentiate between there and Ireland) are as follows.

England       86%
Scotland        9%
Wales            5%

Where as the distribution of claimed ancestry is

England       65%
Scotland      30%
Wales            5%

Of course a good few people living in England would have Scottish and Welsh ancestor, and I suspect not all the people who claim to come from Scotland really did, but these figures show a greater proportion of Scots emigrated to the US than English, which I think is an historical fact anyway, and WAMH is as the figures show more common in Scotland and Wales than England, thus over blowing the total estimate for WAMH in the UK .

I took at look at all the R1b1b2 men in the Wales DNA project who claim Wales as country of origin (meaning that I did NOT look at the "need more info" or "British Colonies" categories).
Most men are NOT WAMH.  No U106 men (all subclades) are WAMH. No M222 men are WAMH. Only a few L21* men are WAMH. No P312* men are WAMH. And I've already sorted the R1b1b2 men who need deep clade into WAMH and non-WAMH, and non-WAMH is in the definite majority.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on June 12, 2009, 07:00:28 PM

I took at look at all the R1b1b2 men in the Wales DNA project who claim Wales as country of origin (meaning that I did NOT look at the "need more info" or "British Colonies" categories).
Most men are NOT WAMH.  No U106 men (all subclades) are WAMH. No M222 men are WAMH. Only a few L21* men are WAMH. No P312* men are WAMH. And I've already sorted the R1b1b2 men who need deep clade into WAMH and non-WAMH, and non-WAMH is in the definite majority.

That makes sense even though Wales leads the charts in WAMH haplotypes 5.40% is still a minority, interesting that L21 is in front though.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 12, 2009, 11:29:07 PM

I took at look at all the R1b1b2 men in the Wales DNA project who claim Wales as country of origin (meaning that I did NOT look at the "need more info" or "British Colonies" categories).
Most men are NOT WAMH.  No U106 men (all subclades) are WAMH. No M222 men are WAMH. Only a few L21* men are WAMH. No P312* men are WAMH. And I've already sorted the R1b1b2 men who need deep clade into WAMH and non-WAMH, and non-WAMH is in the definite majority.

That makes sense even though Wales leads the charts in WAMH haplotypes 5.40% is still a minority, interesting that L21 is in front though.
We need to backup a minute to understand WAMH, the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype and the Atlantic Modal Haplotype, AMH.
http://www.familytreedna.com/MatchWAMH.html

Here are the 1st STR markers of both:
AMH 13-24-14-11-n-n-n-12-n-n-13-n
WAMH 13-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29
WAMH is just a more granular (refined) set of criteria extending AMH.

Please keep in mind the original FTDNA Y ancestral origin data pulled related to this topic were perfect 12 for 12 matches against the modal for WAMH.  The significance of the highest proportion of pure 12 for 12 WAMH in Wales is not that is 12 for 12, just that it represents that a lot of R-M269 men from Wales are somewhat closely related ... and I think they were probably R-P312.  It's all relative.  WAMH is the core haplotype for R-M269.  R-M269 is the most common clade in Europe.   Wales is the place with highest percentage of WAMH.  The 5.4% is not a "low" number.... it is a very high number, relatively.  It is the peak of the R-M269 purity mountain, or in my opinion, the peak of the R-P312 purity mountain.

Anyway, this is the French L21* topic.    France has a lot of WAMH which I think means they may have a lot of R-P312.... probably R-L21*.   Just a guess, but since R-L21* has the same modal as R-M269 which is WAMH... well maybe ... R-L21* is all over France!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: vtilroe on June 13, 2009, 02:48:41 AM
I have no serious doubts about that, but also keep in mind that according to David Faux's U152 database, the U152 project modal is also the same as the L21 project modal.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 13, 2009, 05:24:55 PM
I have no serious doubts about that, but also keep in mind that according to David Faux's U152 database, the U152 project modal is also the same as the L21 project modal.
I wasn't sure of that...  so U152 has WAMH as it's modal as well.   WAMH is the core haplotype of P312 it seems.

It is interesting that L21*, P312*, U152 are all WAMH based while L21 subclade M222 is not.   Um... probably could stir up some controversy with the Irish if we did some speculation on that.       That belongs on another thread, but it is something to ponder.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 19, 2009, 03:58:19 PM
Is this guy French? or English?   I seem him in the French Canadian project as Emery but when I look at his Ysearch I get a different name and place altogether, Davis in England.  The haplotype is the same though.

French Canadian FTDNA project:
92   58796   Emery

Ysearch:
RD8DX   Davis       England


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on June 19, 2009, 08:01:00 PM
Is this guy French? or English?   I seem him in the French Canadian project as Emery but when I look at his Ysearch I get a different name and place altogether, Davis in England.  The haplotype is the same though.

French Canadian FTDNA project:
92   58796   Emery

Ysearch:
RD8DX   Davis       England

He's in the R-L21 Plus Project already, in the "Colonial" category. I seem to recall that he's in the French Heritage Project based on maternal French ancestry. I think the "Davis" entry is something new, so I should move him to the "England" category, I guess.

Note: I just moved him to the "England" category based on the YSearch entry.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on June 19, 2009, 08:16:47 PM
Notice how many red, un-SNP-tested "R1b1b2s" there are in the French Heritage Project? Notice how many others have only the green "R1b1b2"?

I wish some generous benefactor would come forward and volunteer to pay for SNP testing for all those men!

Surely at least some of them are R-L21* (perhaps many of them).

Some of those with a green "R1b1b2a1b" have never been tested for L21, and at least one, Hamon, tested L21+ (S145+) with EA and so still has only a green "R1b1b2a1b" from FTDNA.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 30, 2009, 10:25:24 PM
Updating the list of French R-L21*.
1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isère, Rhône-Alpes, France (this surname is also common in Switzerland)
3. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France (surname also common in Switzerland and Austria)
4. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
5. Le Com - Châteauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
6. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
8. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
9. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
10. Delahoussaye - Louisiana, USA

Note: I have included those with clearly French surnames who are currently brickwalled in French Canada and French Louisiana because those are unique regions of well-established French heritage.
I think we will see many more French R-L21* in the future (if we can just get more Frenchmen to test!).
I noticed this guy in the French heritage project, in Ysearch as KQ276.
920   47514   Ballard    R1b1b2a1b5
Ysearch says his paternal lineage is Cherokee, USA.  I sent them an email asking to join the L21 project.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 29, 2009, 02:27:41 PM
Because of some recent generous donations to the R-L21 Plus Project, we have been able to recruit some men of French descent for L21 testing. I cannot say for sure which of any (or if any) of them will be L21+, but here is the list:

1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Mignault (No YSearch entry) - Bagneux, France (near Paris)
3.  Turpin (5CX4Y) - France (exact location pending)
4.  Garceau (98S6K) - St. Rene, Poitiers, France
5.  Dubois (CNEMA) - Dieppe, Normandy, France
6.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
7.  Broussard (GGXZB) - near Roussillon, France
8.  Guerin (E3ZCR) - near Saint-Martin-du-Fouilloux, France (west of Poitiers)
9.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
10.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
11.  Simoneau (7NWMT) - Bouin, France (near Nantes)
12.  Mylott (32R4C) - Villers-le-Sec, France (near Chaumont)


Feel free to check them out and speculate on which you think will be L21+ and which will not.

It should prove interesting at any rate!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on July 29, 2009, 08:19:47 PM
Because of some recent generous donations to the R-L21 Plus Project, we have been able to recruit some men of French descent for L21 testing. I cannot say for sure which of any (or if any) of them will be L21+, but here is the list:

1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Mignault (No YSearch entry) - Bagneux, France (near Paris)
3.  Turpin (5CX4Y) - France (exact location pending)
4.  Garceau (98S6K) - St. Rene, Poitiers, France
5.  Dubois (CNEMA) - Dieppe, Normandy, France
6.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
7.  Broussard (GGXZB) - near Roussillon, France
8.  Guerin (E3ZCR) - near Saint-Martin-du-Fouilloux, France (west of Poitiers)
9.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
10.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
11.  Simoneau (7NWMT) - Bouin, France (near Nantes)
12.  Mylott (32R4C) - Villers-le-Sec, France (near Chaumont)


Feel free to check them out and speculate on which you think will be L21+ and which will not.

It should prove interesting at any rate!
Have all or any of them previously tested P312?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 30, 2009, 09:50:38 AM
Have all or any of them previously tested P312?

No, actually, not a blessed one of them has been SNP tested.

I recruited these candidates via a bulk email sent to the Group Admin of the French Heritage Project and sent on  by him to his project members. In my email I listed several requirements for the testing. One of those requirements was that the candidate be fully SNP tested, P312+, and negative for everything downstream of P312 except, of course, for L21.

Needless to say, I didn't get too many candidates who met that requirement. As I recall, there were just two, and they both belonged to Nordtvedt's "R1b North-South Cluster", which is solidly L21-.

In the end, I had to go with men who are completely untested. As you know, it is extremely difficult (nearly impossible, in fact) to predict L21 status based on haplotype alone. So this group is very nearly a random R1b1b2 sample, although I did eliminate candidates who had very close matches in R1b1b2 subclades other than L21.

One of the stipulations was also that we not pay for the tests of Bretons (not that I have anything against Bretons - just the opposite, in fact), since the feeling is that Bretagne is an L21 hotspot, would be like "shooting fish in a barrel", and also because Breton results are subject to the claim that they are a consequence of British immigration during the historical period. So, we were looking for French results that could not be reasonably subjected to that accusation.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on July 30, 2009, 01:52:47 PM
Have all or any of them previously tested P312?

No, actually, not a blessed one of them has been SNP tested.

I recruited these candidates via a bulk email sent to the Group Admin of the French Heritage Project and sent on  by him to his project members. In my email I listed several requirements for the testing. One of those requirements was that the candidate be fully SNP tested, P312+, and negative for everything downstream of P312 except, of course, for L21.

Needless to say, I didn't get too many candidates who met that requirement. As I recall, there were just two, and they both belonged to Nordtvedt's "R1b North-South Cluster", which is solidly L21-.

In the end, I had to go with men who are completely untested. As you know, it is extremely difficult (nearly impossible, in fact) to predict L21 status based on haplotype alone. So this group is very nearly a random R1b1b2 sample, although I did eliminate candidates who had very close matches in R1b1b2 subclades other than L21.

One of the stipulations was also that we not pay for the tests of Bretons (not that I have anything against Bretons - just the opposite, in fact), since the feeling is that Bretagne is an L21 hotspot, would be like "shooting fish in a barrel", and also because Breton results are subject to the claim that they are a consequence of British immigration during the historical period. So, we were looking for French results that could not be reasonably subjected to that accusation.
Since France is largely undertested, I think the results should be interesting no matter what subclade they belong to. But since the L21 project is paying for the tests, I fully understand why you are concentrating on those most likely to add to the current knowledge about the distribution of that subclade.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 02, 2009, 01:56:53 PM
Since France is largely undertested, I think the results should be interesting no matter what subclade they belong to. But since the L21 project is paying for the tests, I fully understand why you are concentrating on those most likely to add to the current knowledge about the distribution of that subclade.

You're absolutely right. If we had unlimited money, I would be glad to order Deep Clade-R tests for all the un-SNP-tested R1b1b2 members of the French Heritage Project (and for those in a bunch of other projects, too). But our funds are sorely limited, and since L21 is back on FTDNA's Advanced Orders menu as a stand-alone test, it gives us the most b*ng for the buck (I tried to spell that word out, but apparently it can't appear here, as innocent as it is in this context).

But speaking of Deep Clade-R tests, Turpin has already gotten some of his results, even though he is in Batch 317, not due until August 31. He is already P312+, and that's an excellent start, although that leaves a long way to go and a lot of SNPs to test. At least he's in the right ballpark already! :-)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on August 03, 2009, 07:48:21 PM
Since France is largely undertested, I think the results should be interesting no matter what subclade they belong to. But since the L21 project is paying for the tests, I fully understand why you are concentrating on those most likely to add to the current knowledge about the distribution of that subclade.

You're absolutely right. If we had unlimited money, I would be glad to order Deep Clade-R tests for all the un-SNP-tested R1b1b2 members of the French Heritage Project (and for those in a bunch of other projects, too). But our funds are sorely limited, and since L21 is back on FTDNA's Advanced Orders menu as a stand-alone test, it gives us the most b*ng for the buck (I tried to spell that word out, but apparently it can't appear here, as innocent as it is in this context).

But speaking of Deep Clade-R tests, Turpin has already gotten some of his results, even though he is in Batch 317, not due until August 31. He is already P312+, and that's an excellent start, although that leaves a long way to go and a lot of SNPs to test. At least he's in the right ballpark already! :-)
From your comments, I gather these people will only be tested for L21, so if they're negative, we won't have any idea of whether they are P312*, U106, U152, etc. Correct?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 03, 2009, 07:59:15 PM
From your comments, I gather these people will only be tested for L21, so if they're negative, we won't have any idea of whether they are P312*, U106, U152, etc. Correct?

That is correct. At $89 per Deep Clade-R, we really couldn't afford to go that route. So those who get an L21- result will only know that much. If they want more info, they will have to order the Deep Clade-R for themselves. Turpin, of course, ordered his own Deep Clade-R test.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 04, 2009, 10:42:17 AM
Dubois (CNEMA; Dieppe, Normandy, France) and Mylott (32R4C; Villers-le-Sec, France) have both gone L21+!
 
They are both now in the Western Europe category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project and on the R-L21* European Continent Map (on the project's Results page).
 
You all know where Normandy is. Villers-le-Sec, where Mylott's ancestor came from, on the other hand, is in the Champagne-Ardenne region of eastern France.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on August 04, 2009, 06:44:03 PM
Results are coming in thick and fast, this is beter than watching the soaps



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 04, 2009, 08:15:54 PM
Results are coming in thick and fast, this is beter than watching the soaps

It's been a good day for L21 results. I hope we get many more positive results.

Now I'm hoping our Czech R-L21* will join the project!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 06, 2009, 08:06:14 PM
Another one of our Frenchmen has gone L21+: Turpin, YSearch 5CX4Y.  

He knows his ancestor was born in France, but he doesn't know where, so I placed a red placemark for him in the capital, Paris.

Actually, I placed it near "Rue Turpin" in Fontenay-sous-Bois, in the Paris metro area! :-)

Turpin is in the Western Europe category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project now.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on August 07, 2009, 03:47:45 PM
Another one of our Frenchmen has gone L21+: Turpin, YSearch 5CX4Y.  

He knows his ancestor was born in France, but he doesn't know where, so I placed a red placemark for him in the capital, Paris.

Actually, I placed it near "Rue Turpin" in Fontenay-sous-Bois, in the Paris metro area! :-)

Turpin is in the Western Europe category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project now.
I assume you will report those who test negative as well? I gather so far it's three for three L21?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 07, 2009, 08:25:24 PM
I assume you will report those who test negative as well? I gather so far it's three for three L21?

I thought about doing that but wasn't sure about reporting folks' negative results.

Anyway, no, we're three for five. Simoneau and Garceau (they're on the list a few posts back) got L21- results.

Although I think L21 is looking good in France - that is, it appears to be fairly common there - , I don't think there is any one single subclade of R1b1b2 that predominates - unless one wants to back up a step and say that P312+ subclades are the predominant variety of R1b1b2 in France (as opposed to U106).

If you look at the Y-DNA Results page of the French Heritage Project and the SNP tested R1b1b2s there, you will see what I mean. There is R-P312*, R-SRY2627, R-L21, R-M222, R-U152*, R-L2, and R-U106. (One of the R-L21s, Hamon, tested S145+ with EA, so he still appears as "R1b1b2a1b".)

And, still, most of the R1b1b2s there are either completely un-SNP-tested or are in need of upgrades from the old Deep SNP-R1b or the pre-P312, pre-L21 Deep Clade-R.

I wish some rich person would step forward and pay to have all those guys SNP tested!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 07, 2009, 08:50:21 PM
I assume you will report those who test negative as well? I gather so far it's three for three L21?

I thought about doing that but wasn't sure about reporting folks' negative results.

Anyway, no, we're three for five. Simoneau and Garceau (they're on the list a few posts back) got L21- results.

Although I think L21 is looking good in France - that is, it appears to be fairly common there - , I don't think there is any one single subclade of R1b1b2 that predominates - unless one wants to back up a step and say that P312+ subclades are the predominant variety of R1b1b2 in France (as opposed to U106).

If you look at the Y-DNA Results page of the French Heritage Project and the SNP tested R1b1b2s there, you will see what I mean. There is R-P312*, R-SRY2627, R-L21, R-M222, R-U152*, R-L2, and R-U106. (One of the R-L21s, Hamon, tested S145+ with EA, so he still appears as "R1b1b2a1b".)

And, still, most of the R1b1b2s there are either completely un-SNP-tested or are in need of upgrades from the old Deep SNP-R1b or the pre-P312, pre-L21 Deep Clade-R.

I wish some rich person would step forward and pay to have all those guys SNP tested!

Here's that list I mentioned (now with notes for those with results):

1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Mignault (No YSearch entry) - Bagneux, France (near Paris)
3.  Turpin (5CX4Y) - France (exact location pending)  L21+
4.  Garceau (98S6K) - St. Rene, Poitiers, France  L21-
5.  Dubois (CNEMA) - Dieppe, Normandy, France  L21+
6.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
7.  Broussard (GGXZB) - near Roussillon, France
8.  Guerin (E3ZCR) - near Saint-Martin-du-Fouilloux, France (west of Poitiers)
9.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
10.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
11.  Simoneau (7NWMT) - Bouin, France (near Nantes)  L21-
12.  Mylott (32R4C) - Villers-le-Sec, France (near Chaumont)  L21+


There is now a new one to add:

13. Grenier (4XHJC) - France ("Northern France" is all the family knows for now)

Of all those on the list, none of them except Grenier stands out as really likely to be L21+. I chose them because none of them seemed to be obviously anything else, if you know what I mean. In other words, it was a gamble, but they all seemed to have at least a shot at coming up positive on the L21 test.

Grenier is different in that his closest matches in Ysearch are R-L21*, so I am fairly confident he will be L21+ (although I could get surprised, obviously).

So, the new "French L21 Results Pending" list should look like this:


1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Mignault (No YSearch entry) - Bagneux, France (near Paris)
3.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
4.  Broussard (GGXZB) - near Roussillon, France
5.  Guerin (E3ZCR) - near Saint-Martin-du-Fouilloux, France (west of Poitiers)
6.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
7.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
8.  Grenier (4XHJC) - France ("Northern France" is all the family knows for now)


Eight left. Wish we could test many many more.

Anyone want to guess who will be L21+ and who will not?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 08, 2009, 01:25:14 PM
New list:

1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Mignault (No YSearch entry) - Bagneux, France (near Paris)
3.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
4.  Guerin (E3ZCR) - near Saint-Martin-du-Fouilloux, France (west of Poitiers)
5.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
6.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
7.  Grenier (4XHJC) - France ("Northern France" is all the family knows for now)


We lost Broussard (GGXZB; from near Roussillon, France), who was #4 above. He went L21-. Bernard Secher predicted that because he believed Roussillon is too far south. He was right.

Seven left.

Any predictions?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 19, 2009, 11:58:19 AM
I've been gone a few days. It's time for an update.

First, the good news: there is a another new French R-L21*, Dussault (original spelling Dusceau, YSearch RK6ZX). His ancestor came from La Rochelle on France's west coast.

More good news is that Turpin found some old paperwork belonging to his great-grandfather that shows that he was born in Brécey in Basse-Normandie (our second Norman).

The bad news is that a couple of the men on the list in my last post (above) went L21-, so we're down to five who are awaiting L21 results:

1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
3.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
4.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
5.  Grenier (4XHJC) - France ("Northern France" is all the family knows for now)



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 20, 2009, 09:30:25 AM
Here's an updated list of the French R-L21* thus far:

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
3. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
4. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Foret, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
5. Le Com - Chateauneuf- du-Faou, Finistere, Bretagne, France
6. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistere, Bretagne, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistere, Bretagne, France
8. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
9. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le- Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
10. Delahoussaye - Louisiana, USA
11. Dubois -  Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
12. Mylott - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
13. Turpin -  Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
14. Dussault - La Rochelle, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, France
15. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France


There is also a 16th if you count Bonnet, whose ancestry is Savoyard from Piemonte, Italy.

That's not bad for a fairly new SNP in a drastically under-tested region.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 21, 2009, 10:01:35 AM
I am posting an updated list yet again to correct something. Delahoussaye's ancestor died in Louisiana, but it turns out he was born in Paris in about 1702. (I also alphabetized the list.)

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
3. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
4. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
5. Dussault - La Rochelle, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, France
6. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
7. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
8. Hamon -  Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
9. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
10. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
11. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
12. Mylott - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
13. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
14. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
15. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 26, 2009, 07:46:08 PM
I just spotted a brand new R-L21* in the French Heritage Project, Cartier, kit 82258 (scroll down to the Cs; the entries are alphabetical):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

Hopefully, he'll join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I know the surname Cartier looks a lot like Chartier, the surname of a man who is already a member of the R-L21 Plus Project, but the haplotypes don't match. Different line.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 27, 2009, 08:11:50 PM
I just spotted a brand new R-L21* in the French Heritage Project, Cartier, kit 82258 (scroll down to the Cs; the entries are alphabetical):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

Hopefully, he'll join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I know the surname Cartier looks a lot like Chartier, the surname of a man who is already a member of the R-L21 Plus Project, but the haplotypes don't match. Different line.

Cartier has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. I am just waiting for some information from him.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 28, 2009, 07:16:11 PM
Okay.  As I mentioned above, Cartier joined the R-L21 Plus Project. It turns out - drum roll, please - that his most distant y-dna ancestor came from the very same town that Bernard's did, Drain, in NW France. Small world, eh? :-)
 
More news: Grenier has gone L21+ and is now in the France category on the project's Y-DNA Results page. I put a placemark in Paris for him, since he knows (or, rather, the lady sponsoring him knows) that Grenier's most distant y-dna ancestor came from Northern France but does not know the exact city or town.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 28, 2009, 08:48:58 PM
Here is the updated list.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
6. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
8. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
9. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
10. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
11. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
12. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
13. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
14. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
15. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
16. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
17. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: secherbernard on August 29, 2009, 03:00:49 AM
Okay.  As I mentioned above, Cartier joined the R-L21 Plus Project. It turns out - drum roll, please - that his most distant y-dna ancestor came from the very same town that Bernard's did, Drain, in NW France. Small world, eh? :-)
 
More news: Grenier has gone L21+ and is now in the France category on the project's Y-DNA Results page. I put a placemark in Paris for him, since he knows (or, rather, the lady sponsoring him knows) that Grenier's most distant y-dna ancestor came from Northern France but does not know the exact city or town.
Wow, so we can create now the R-L21 club of Drain ;-)
For a city of about 1700 inhabitants: that's great!!
 
Bernard


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 29, 2009, 09:01:45 AM
Okay.  As I mentioned above, Cartier joined the R-L21 Plus Project. It turns out - drum roll, please - that his most distant y-dna ancestor came from the very same town that Bernard's did, Drain, in NW France. Small world, eh? :-)
 
More news: Grenier has gone L21+ and is now in the France category on the project's Y-DNA Results page. I put a placemark in Paris for him, since he knows (or, rather, the lady sponsoring him knows) that Grenier's most distant y-dna ancestor came from Northern France but does not know the exact city or town.
Wow, so we can create now the R-L21 club of Drain ;-)
For a city of about 1700 inhabitants: that's great!!
 
Bernard



It is an interesting circumstance. I had to set your placemark and Cartier's placemark on either side of Drain on the Google R-L21* European Continent Map. Otherwise, you covered each other and together looked like just one placemark.

If you look at this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png) of Celtic tribes in Gaul about 58 BC, you will see that the Pictones apparently lived south of the Loire in the vicinity of Drain. Just across the river were the Andes and the Namnetes. I'm pretty sure the Namnetes gave their name to Nantes.

One of my own ancestors on my father's side, Paul Micou, came from Nantes.

Thus far we seem to be doing pretty well in what Caesar called Gallia Celtica and Gallia Belgica, but, as far as I know, there are no L21s in old Aquitania. I'm not sure about Narbonesis, since perhaps Grenoble was located there, in the land of the Allobroges, and we do have one R-L21* there.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 29, 2009, 11:38:02 AM
I found a better and more detailed map in Koch's An Atlas for Celtic Studies. It's Map 17, and it shows the Celtic tribe the Andecavi in the region of Drain, just south of the Loire (then called the Liger). The Pictones were much farther south. The Namnetes were to the west of the Andecavi, around Condevincum (Nantes) and the mouth of the Loire.

That whole area is rich in Celtic artifacts.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: secherbernard on August 29, 2009, 12:13:36 PM
It is an interesting circumstance. I had to set your placemark and Cartier's placemark on either side of Drain on the Google R-L21* European Continent Map. Otherwise, you covered each other and together looked like just one placemark.

If you look at this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png) of Celtic tribes in Gaul about 58 BC, you will see that the Pictones apparently lived south of the Loire in the vicinity of Drain. Just across the river were the Andes and the Namnetes. I'm pretty sure the Namnetes gave their name to Nantes.

One of my own ancestors on my father's side, Paul Micou, came from Nantes.

Thus far we seem to be doing pretty well in what Caesar called Gallia Celtica and Gallia Belgica, but, as far as I know, there are no L21s in old Aquitania. I'm not sure about Narbonesis, since perhaps Grenoble was located there, in the land of the Allobroges, and we do have one R-L21* there.

Yes, you are right Rich: Drain was not so far from the limits between Namnetes, Andes and Pictones during Gaulish times, and then from the limits between Brittany, Anjou and Poitou during middle ages.
Namnetes gives the name to Nantes, Andes gives the name to Angers (Anjou), Pictones gives the name to Poitiers (Poitou).
 
The region of Drain (Les Mauges) was the center of  different conflicts between dukes of Poitou, Anjou and Brittany during middle ages.
 
In the beginning The Mauges belong to Poitou. But following Viking invasions in 9th century, tke king of France created a new county: the county of Herbauges from a part of Poitou and from Nantes county which belonged to Brittany.
 
The breton Alain Barbe-Torte defeated the Vikings and then took possession of Herbauges county. But Alain Barbe-Torte died a few years after, and his wife got married with Foulque Le Bon duke of Anjou. Then The Mauges belonged to Anjou.
 
This is a very short summer of the story but you can read more ont his on my own web site: http://translate.google.fr/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpagesperso-orange.fr%2Fbsecher%2Fhistoire.htm&sl=fr&tl=en&history_state0=fr|en|il%2520mourut%2520aussit%25C3%25B4t
 
Henri Hubert, in his book on the celts, think it is possible that Pictones of the Loire Valley are related to Picts of Scotland. He speak about the Cone d'Avanton: one of the golden hat found in Poitou: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hat. This object seems to show that celts were present in Poitou in 1000 BC.
 
Bernard


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 29, 2009, 02:06:20 PM
Bernard -

This is an interesting conversation to me (and I know we are conducting it on more than one forum!). I looked at the article you posted on the L21 Yahoo Group about the Golden Hats. L21 has been found in or near each place one of those hats was found. Coincidence?

It is interesting that you mentioned Hubert and his connecting of the British Picts and the Gallic Pictones. He also connects the Brigantes, the Parisii, and the Cassi of the Continent to the British tribes of the same names, which makes sense to me.

On pages 214-215 of his book, The History of the Celtic People, Hubert says, "There were Parisii in the neighbourhood of modern Paris. The Brigantes came from Switzerland and Upper Bavaria; Bregenz was originally Brigantum, and Cambodunum (Kempten) was a town of the Brigantes. They founded another Cambodunum on the road from York to Chester . . . The Cassi must have belonged to the same group as the Veliocasses, Viducasses, Baiocasses, and Tricasses; this group perhaps gave its name to Hessen.

The presence of the Parisii, Brigantes, and Cassi among the Britons shows that they were related to the Celtic peoples of the Continent, and also points to the part of the Celtic world in which we should look for the origins of which they preserved the tradition."




Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 07, 2009, 08:54:20 AM
I am intrigued by the very high L21 hit rate in the north and east of France (given the tiny sample tested) as well as the clear concentraton in the west and south of Germany.  Instead of dividing these up and throwing them into the French and German national totals seperately (which I think hides how high that particular area of Germany is in L21), we should probably really look at them combined into one 'former Gaul' total.  I think one thing that is coming out of this is how big L21 was in Celtic Gaul or Gallia Celtica in particular (see Gaul under Wikipedia for map).  It cant help feeling it could be the modal clade there.  I think the days where among the S116 clades S28 can claim to be THE Gaulish Celtic clade are done now and that glory needs to be shared with L21 and likely others too.   

I think that the importance of continental L21 has been somewhat overlooked.   I think this is partly due to the improbable idea that it originated in the isles.  I think when some stats for the percentage of L21 hits per tested R1b person from the northern/eastern half of France become available as a result of the current near-blind testing of French R1b folk for L21 by the L21 project, the isles origin idea will wither away.     

The continental distribution provides a strong hint at where the ancestors of many isles folk lived prior to arriving in the isles (whatever the period this happened- thats another arguement).  That place seems to be northern France and perhaps the Rhine before that and lord knows before that (I would guess the Danube).   No real surprise there in terms of geographical common sense and certainly no surprise archaeologically.

I have a bad feeling (not sure why) that we may not find clades downstream of L21 that straddle both the isles and the continent,so L21 may be the best we ever get.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 07, 2009, 10:46:25 AM
I also think we may not get another useful SNP downstream of L21, but I could be wrong about that. Honestly, even though I think the L21 WTY is a worthy effort, when I think of all the money being poured in that direction that could be used to do more continental L21 testing, it frustrates me. Just think of how many L21 tests the price of a single WTY could provide!

Looking at the R-L21* European Continent Map (http://tinyurl.com/mstfzn (http://tinyurl.com/mstfzn)), it seems possible to draw a straight line from the group clustered between Ulm and Köln in Germany to Northern France and the bulk of the R-L21* there. It looks as though a possible path went through the triangle there formed by the border of France, Germany and Belgium, with Luxembourg as the approximate apex.

Sometimes clicking on "Terrain" makes patterns on the Google map easier to see, since it gets rid of all the clutter that appears on the political map.

But, anyway, it seems to me we are still in the very early stages of learning about L21, and there may be future developments on the map that we do not now expect.

I do think L21 must have been a major component in the y-dna of the ancient Gauls, but, like you, I'm not claiming it was the only one.

I also think the very obvious similarities between the words, Gaul, Gael, Galatian, and Celt are more than mere coincidence.




Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 07, 2009, 11:51:18 AM
If L21 crossed over to the isles from the continent within say 1000 years or less of the SNP coming into existence, should we expect a useful SNP to split it i.e. one that also straddles the continent and the isles? 

Thats clearly an impossible scenario for those who think L21 happened in the isles.  They are presumably hoping that an SNP falls between S116 and L21 and its distribution somehow clarrifiess things.  Given the very similar MRCA variance dates for S116 and L21, what is the chances of that?  Its a very narrow window of opportunity and  think there is very little chance. 

For those who think that L21 is continental in origin, they may be looking for SNPs downstream from L21 that are also known on the continent and hope to establish a trail from that.  While that is not impossible by any means (far more likely that an SNP between S116 and L21 IMO), I cant see it producing a mind blowing result given that continental L21 is overwhelmingly concentrated into northern France and adjacent areas of west Germany.  If you believe in a continental origin for L21, its pretty clear that L21 must have got to the isles from those areas.  In fact, it is clear that coastal tribes or clans within sight of (or certainly close to and very familiar with) the British Isles and who had some sort of naval ability must have been involved (the French coast is the closest to Britain and by far the closest to Ireland).   So, I would be fairly sure that isles L21 set off from the north French coast, northern France also apparently being the place where it is most common on the continent by some distance.

I think we probably have already found the magical SNP that left a cross-channel trail from NW Euripe to the isles. Its kind of weird that it wasnt considered a champagne moment when it started to become clear L21 had left a sort of trail to the isles.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 07, 2009, 01:11:17 PM
. . . Its kind of weird that it wasnt considered a champagne moment when it started to become clear L21 had left a sort of trail to the isles.

I think the reason is that there is a lot of partisanship among those of us who are interested in "Deep Ancestry". There is a keen interest (that may be putting it mildly) in claiming this or that heroic group as exclusively one's own ancestors. That, I think, explains the desire of some to restrict L21 to the British Isles and paint it as "aboriginal" there. One has to keep L21 off the Continent if he wants to keep the Celts all to himself and to his own non-L21 haplogroup.

Then there are those who want to find a really geographically restricted SNP so that possession of it immediately identifies one as having ancestry in that specific, circumscribed area: you know, THE Irish SNP, or THE Scottish SNP, etc., or least THE British Isles SNP.

A contributing factor is the big head start clades like U106 (now divided into its own subclades) and U152 (also divided into subclades now) have enjoyed, which has enabled their partisans to stake out impressive ancestral claims, despite the fact that in the days when they had the field pretty much to themselves 60% or more of R1b1b2 was known to be something other than U106+ or U152+.

Now L21 is in the awkward position of having to elbow its way into the picture, hampered by a poor economy that no doubt has slowed dna testing and by the huge British Isles bias in the database.

We are also laboring against the "Celto-Sceptic" position, which has a political component to it in the British Isles and maintains that there really were no "true Celts" in the Isles, that Celtic languages and culture arrived by means of a mysterious "cultural package".

Then there is the whole "immobilist" position - similar to that of the Celto-Sceptics but less caustic - which seems to argue that people don't move much or haven't moved much since the Mesolithic Period.

All of these things militate against belief in the arrival in the British Isles of an intrusive y-dna haplogroup or subclade from the Continent that eventually came to be numerically dominant.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 07, 2009, 05:10:31 PM
. . . Its kind of weird that it wasnt considered a champagne moment when it started to become clear L21 had left a sort of trail to the isles.
....
(1)There is a keen interest (that may be putting it mildly) in claiming this or that heroic group as exclusively one's own ancestors. ....
(2) Then there are those who want to find a really geographically restricted SNP so that possession of it immediately identifies one as having ancestry in that specific, circumscribed area: you know, THE Irish SNP, or THE Scottish SNP, etc., or least THE British Isles SNP. ....
(3) "Celto-Sceptic" position, which has a political component to it in the British Isles and maintains that there really were no "true Celts" in the Isles, ....
(4) Then there is the whole "immobilist" position - similar to that of the Celto-Sceptics but less caustic - which seems to argue that people don't move much or haven't moved much since the Mesolithic Period.
....
I agree that all four perspectives impede acceptance of L21+'s apparent trail.  I don't really understand the positions of pure bias like 1, 2 and 3 since I would like to think most people want the truth, no matter what it is.  I think #4, the "immobilist" viewpoint is the one that impedes progress the most.   We are presented with so many "modern day" haplogroup distribution maps that they mesmirize one's thinking.  You see all of that high L21 relative frequency the further west you get, you tend to forget how greatly history (which we do know) may have impacted it, which even makes it harder to perceive how prehistory (which we really don't know) may have impacte distributions.

Without DNA evidence, it'd have been very hard to convince me that a lot of Europeans came from SW and Central Asia.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 07, 2009, 06:21:51 PM
I think people should ignore absolute numbers (which will always favour the isles) and try to conentrate on percentages of L21 per head in populations.  Argiedude had made a start although I think he underestimates L21 which I think will prove to be at least 20 percent of the French male population and perhaps 30-40% in the north.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 08, 2009, 08:20:58 PM
Updating the list to add yet another French R-L21*, Mireault (ancestral surname Amirault):

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
6. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
8. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
9. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
10. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
11. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
12. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
13. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
14. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
15. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
16. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
17. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
18. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 09, 2009, 03:31:18 AM
So that seems to only leave the following from this French L21 testing stint:

2.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
3.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)

Even if these two come in positive, they will just confirm the existing distribution.  I think when they come in, stats and a map with dots showing both positive and negative results from at least this round of L21 testing would be more informative than the L21 map alone.  The stats would be (even if the sample has been modest) one of the first ever chances to make statements of the percentages of L21 positive/negative percentages based on (sort of) blind and random testing of the R1b in a country.  I think that would be the biggest contributions to our understanding of continental L21 to date.   

I suspect the French and especially the northern French L21 statistic will be impressive.  A map showing both the hits and misses of L21 testing in France would be very useful as it will indicate where absense of L21 may be real and where it may be simply because no samples came from a particular part of France.  For example, I suspect the void in the inland centre of France and perhaps the extreme NE may not be real but the gap in L21 in the south is real.  Only a map showing both the hits and misses will demostrate whether that is fair comment or not. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 09, 2009, 12:30:59 PM
How would one divide France into major regions that might have some genetic correlation?  Seems like the Northwest/Normandie part of France should be separated from Paris eastward.  Here is what I have now.

North Atlantic France:
Brittany (Rennes)
Pays de la Loire (Nantes)
Poitou-Charentes (Poitiers)

Old Aquitane / Southwest France:
Aquitane (Bordeaux)
Midi-Pyrénées (Toulouse)
Languedoc-Roussillon

North/Northeast France:
Basse-Normandie (Caen)
Haute-Normandie (Rouen)
Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille)
Picardy (Amiens)
Île-de-France (Paris)
Centre (Orléans)
Borgogne (Dijon)
Champagne-Ardenne (Châlons-en-Champagne)
Lorraine (Metz)
Alsace (Strasbourg)
Franche-Comté

Mountainous Southeast France:
Rhône-Alpes (Lyon)
Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur (Marseille)
Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand)
Limousin (Limoges)

Corsica?  Seems like it must stand alone.  May be a moot point since no R-L21* there yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_France
http://bonjourlafrance.net/france-map/map-of-french-regions.htm
http://www.terresdeurope.net/en/iso_album/france_reliefs.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Langues_de_la_France1.gif


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 09, 2009, 01:18:24 PM
How would one divide France into major regions that might have some genetic correlation?  Seems like the Northwest/Normandie part of France should be separated from Paris eastward

I suspect that the relative lack to the east of Paris may not be real.  I think few were sampled there.  That is exactly why I would like to see a map or at least a list showing both the hits and misses of the recent round of French L21 testing.  I think that very very few have been tested from the real NE of France.  

Another possibility is that the lack in the NE of France is real and that L21 is only big in Celtic Gaul/Gallia Celtica and was scarce in all of Belgic Gaul, which included France NE of Paris as well as Belgium etc.  For a map of the divisions of Gaul see Wikipedia under Gaul and you will see what I mean.  Celtica excludes the area to the north east of Paris but includes the rest of the north and a chunk of the east and aso south/west Germany.  The Celtica division of Gaul is very similar to the high L21 zone of north-central/north-west and eastern France and west Germany.  The idea the Belgi may be low in L21 may be supported by the apparent relative lack in Belgium and its neighbours. Southern Gaul was once dominated by Ligurians and Aquitanian Gaul was probably a real mix of prot-basques, other non-Celts,, southern Gauls etc and may have been quite different.  I think there is a strong case that L21 was very strong in Gallia Celtica but perhaps not in the other Belgic, Aquitanian and Ligurian areas of Gaul.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 09, 2009, 01:25:50 PM
To follow on, it would be surpising if the semi-ethnic divisions the Romans noted in Gaul were not reflected in the clades.  These observations included:

1. A resemblance of the Belgi with 'German' tribes across the Rhine (German need not have meant Germanic speaking).  That would seem to be consistent with a lack of L21 in both Belgica and the area of Germany east of the Rhine mouth area. The Belgic part of Britain are also lower in L21 than the rest of the isles.  The difference of the old Belgic and Celtic Gaul areas would have been further emphasised when the main movements of the Germanic Franks occupied a very similar area as old Belgic Gaul, possibly further dropping the L21 count there.

2. A resemblance between the Aquitani and the Iberians.  That may be reflected in the apparent lack of L21 and perhaps high S116.

This leaves by default the Celtic Gauls who like the non-Belgic Britons and Irish seem to have a very high L21.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 09, 2009, 03:10:17 PM
What about the Alpine areas of Germany and Switzerland? Or is that included with Eastern France?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 09, 2009, 03:38:04 PM
...
This leaves by default the Celtic Gauls who like the non-Belgic Britons and Irish seem to have a very high L21.  
...
Henri Hubert readers, how does that correspond with his perspective of the Goidels?

My understanding is that the farming/land usage situation of ancient Rhine-Westphalia was similar to Ireland and that Hubert thought the Goidels migrated thru the current Netherland and Beligum area into Britain from the east/southeast.  Do I have that right on Hubert's perspective?

Did Belgae later on take over those areas?

Map of Gaul and the tribes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gaul,_1st_century_BC.gif


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 09, 2009, 03:40:21 PM
To follow on, it would be surpising if the semi-ethnic divisions the Romans.....
This leaves by default the Celtic Gauls who like the non-Belgic Britons and Irish seem to have a very high L21.  
Which begs a long elusive question?  What major subclades did Belgae carry with them?  R-U106 or U152 along with some variants I?

.... and/or different specific "types" (clusters/undiscovered subclades) of R-L21*?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 09, 2009, 03:46:52 PM
Aren't the ancient Fir Bolg tribes of Ireland supposedly related to the Belgae?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 09, 2009, 04:13:30 PM
Aren't the ancient Fir Bolg tribes of Ireland supposedly related to the Belgae?
My reading of Hubert is that he considered the Fir Bolg a "late-comer" to Ireland, after the Goedels.  He considered them men with bags, or men that wore pants, and yes, he thought they were Belgae.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 09, 2009, 04:20:10 PM
Aren't the ancient Fir Bolg tribes of Ireland supposedly related to the Belgae?
My reading of Hubert is that he considered the Fir Bolg a "late-comer" to Ireland, after the Goedels.  He considered them men with bags, or men that wore pants, and yes, he thought they were Belgae.
There is not much R-U106 in Ireland, correct?  http://www.geocities.com/thurlowons/R1b1c9/U106_pop_density.html
If so, then I'd think U-106 was not carried with the Belgae to any significant degree.   

Although there is obviously a bunch of U106 in modern Belgium and the Netherlands.  Maybe they are the late-comers to that vicinity.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 09, 2009, 04:25:13 PM
I know the Laigin tribe supposedly has connections with the Belgae, but it is more likely (due to the matches in the Leinster cluster connected to the early Laigin chieftains) that they were Gaulish.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 09, 2009, 06:39:26 PM
Aren't the ancient Fir Bolg tribes of Ireland supposedly related to the Belgae?
My reading of Hubert is that he considered the Fir Bolg a "late-comer" to Ireland, after the Goedels.  He considered them men with bags, or men that wore pants, and yes, he thought they were Belgae.

I think that the For Bolg may represent a memory of a very late iron age intrusion of small numbers of Belgic refugess but there are no real classic Belgic archaeological traces in Ireland so its only the comparison of the names Bolg and Belgi we have as evidence.  If this is a genuine echo  I would still  suspect thery were late and small in numbers.

I also think that O'Rahilly made a big mistake either deciding or at least agreeing with a correlation of Errain with the Fir Bolg.  I think that is almost certainly wrong.  More recent studies (I think ti was Koch) link the Errain name with the name of the island and suggest the name kind of means'Ireland people' possibly indicating an indigenous or very old population srata.  For some reason this Errain and Fir Bolg became conflated and thus the idea of an ancient indigenous stratum was transferred to the Fir Bolg but I think originally the Fir Bolg  were in fact a late strand like the Fir Domnain=Dumnoni and very much distinct from the much older Errain. I think the the evidence is that any genetic impact of the Belgi would be small.  I think many of the tribes described as For Bolg in Medeival irish literature were really Errain. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 09, 2009, 06:52:29 PM
No, the links of the Leinstermen are with the Fir Domnain or Dumnoni, an Irish Sea British tribe and there are also legendary links with Gaul, usually thought to be NW Gaul.  I dont think there are links with the Belgi unless you are thinking of the Manapi tribe that Ptolemy's map places in Leinster.  They had a sound-alike tribe on the Rhine in Belgic Gaul but nobody is sure if this indicates a real connection.  No Belgic material has ever been found in Ireland so anything must have been small scale.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 09, 2009, 06:55:26 PM
The link between the Belgae and Leinstermen was of course Rahilly's idea. That was why I mentioned it; I also read that the idea was not really backed by empirical evidence.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 09, 2009, 07:10:52 PM
Aren't the ancient Fir Bolg tribes of Ireland supposedly related to the Belgae?

 I understand that there is no real haplotype (or phenotype according to old books) differences between the Germanic (Flemish) and French (Walloon) speakers in Belgium.  So, I suspect EITHER that the Frankish invasions did not have a huge genetic impact on the Romanised Gallo-Belgic population they came to dominate.  OR that the various Celtic and Germanic populations on both sides of the lower Rhine were very similar anyway.   So, my best guess is that Belgium would still give us be a pretty good idea of what the Belgi haplogroups were.  I suspect they have a mix of all clades including S116*, S28, S21 and L21.  I actually have a sneaking suspicion it may be the most diverse part of Gaul in terms of R1b clades. Maybe someone with a bit more knowledge could discuss the Belgium R1b situation.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 09, 2009, 07:38:15 PM
Okay, I made a quick Google map of the kind Alan mentioned a few posts back, showing the results of our recent spate of French L21 testing. Green means L21+. Red means L21-.

http://tinyurl.com/npebew (http://tinyurl.com/npebew)

Of the 13 tests, seven came out L21+ and six were L21-. In Northern France (if I am right in what I am delimiting as Northern France) the results were six L21+ to four L21-.

Except for Simoneau, who ordered a Deep Clade-R and is R-P312*, we don't know what the L21- guys are, R-P312* , R-SRY2627, R-U152 (of some kind), or R-U106 (of some kind).

One should also look at France on the R-P312* Map (http://tinyurl.com/nfyrto) and on the R-L21* European Continent Map (http://tinyurl.com/mzsypp).

Remember, too, that there are other kinds of R1b1b2 in France than just R-L21* and R-P312*. Both are well represented there, but I don't think it's exactly a slam dunk. We need to look at how all the R1b1b2 clades are distributed and their frequencies in France.




Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 09, 2009, 07:49:54 PM
Its a shame people do not generally realise that O'Rahilly wrote his book fairly early in the development of Celtic studies in Ireland and his book should be seen as a beginning not a final statement on the subject.  Unfortunately all the progress since O'Rahilly is contained in obscure academic journals and not a single book.  I think that in itself explains why such an old book still has prominence as a text.  In reality, his invasion scheme was not taken seriously at all by historians and archaeologists for very long.  I think it was essentially rejected promptly by most academics and brushed under the carpet except as a footnote.  Although he rejected or reinterpreted much of the book of invasions, he still felt compelled to maintian part of its basic framework (such as 'the Gaels' being the last invaders) in a way that scholars since have not.  

The idea of a wave of late invading Gaels seems to have been totally swept away for at least 30 years in credible academic circles and I think had little support for some time even before that.   In general it seems that the idea that Gaelic was the first (and last) type of Celtic spoken in Ireland to any significant degree is the majority view.  The idea that the first Celticisation of Ireland happened due to an Iron Age invasion is out of fashion,and deeper time scenarios and/or more subtle mechanisms for the coming of Celtic language are much more popular.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 09, 2009, 07:56:43 PM
So that seems to only leave the following from this French L21 testing stint:

2.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
3.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)

Even if these two come in positive, they will just confirm the existing distribution.  I think when they come in, stats and a map with dots showing both positive and negative results from at least this round of L21 testing would be more informative than the L21 map alone.  The stats would be (even if the sample has been modest) one of the first ever chances to make statements of the percentages of L21 positive/negative percentages based on (sort of) blind and random testing of the R1b in a country.  I think that would be the biggest contributions to our understanding of continental L21 to date.   

I suspect the French and especially the northern French L21 statistic will be impressive.  A map showing both the hits and misses of L21 testing in France would be very useful as it will indicate where absense of L21 may be real and where it may be simply because no samples came from a particular part of France.  For example, I suspect the void in the inland centre of France and perhaps the extreme NE may not be real but the gap in L21 in the south is real.  Only a map showing both the hits and misses will demostrate whether that is fair comment or not. 

In addition to Londry and Lemaire, we have a third Frenchman in the "L21 Pending" category, Dushane (original spelling Duchesne), whose ancestor came from Tours.

His result isn't due until October 12 (Batch 323).

If we are blessed with some more donations, maybe we could try to fill in the gaps in the map.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 09, 2009, 08:38:52 PM
Rich-that map somehow brings home how sparse the sampling is even with a bit of extra money thrown at it and the sheer enormity of the task of ever getting distibution maps of clades across Europe.  It also shows how skewed to the north the French sample is if you simply consider the country as split into a northern and southern half.  I guess that simply must be down to migration patterns to the America's. The one downside if that contrary to my posting earlier it is perhaps too early to draw any conclusions on southern France.    

However, to be positive, I think to be able to say that of a sample of  13 (mainly northern) French R1b men, 7 (54%) were L21+ is pretty important.  It is important also to note that Brittany was deliberately excluded from the sample.  I think the conclusion must be that L21 is very common in the non-Breton parts of northern France, apparenly more common than in England unless I am mistaken.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 09, 2009, 08:50:06 PM
Rich-that map somehow brings home how sparse the sampling is even with a bit of extra money thrown at it and the sheer enormity of the task of ever getting distibution maps of clades across Europe.  It also shows how skewed to the north the French sample is if you simply consider the country as split into a northern and southern half.  I guess that simply must be down to migration patterns to the America's. The one downside if that contrary to my posting earlier it is perhaps too early to draw any conclusions on southern France.    

However, to be positive, I think to be able to say that of a sample of  13 (mainly northern) French R1b men, 7 (54%) were L21+ is pretty important.  It is important also to note that Brittany was deliberately excluded from the sample.  I think the conclusion must be that L21 is very common in the non-Breton parts of northern France, apparenly more common than in England unless I am mistaken.  

We started out trying to recruit people for testing who were P312+ and negative for everything but L21. We weren't able to recruit any of those, so we had to go with a random R1b1b2 sample. The only one of the bunch I was pretty sure would be L21 was Grenier, because he had a couple of fairly close matches at 37 markers who are L21+. For the rest, it was pretty much a shot in the dark.

So, to have over half of them turn out to be L21+ seems pretty positive. Of course, we still have three left to find out about.

But I think we can say pretty confidently that L21 is common in France, at least in Northern France.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 09, 2009, 08:56:33 PM
We have 456 men in the R-L21 Plus Project who are tested L21+ already. Just think what we could do if each of us would give just $10 toward continental L21 testing!

We could test over 100 men for L21.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 09, 2009, 09:10:45 PM
Alan,

If the early Irish come from Gaul, and the language always spoken in Ireland is Q-Celtic, but Gaulish is P-Celtic - I'm confused.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 10, 2009, 05:41:24 AM
Probably ALL Celts spoke a Q-Celtic dialect originally.  The Q form is the original.  The P is an innovation.  So, it is possible that the connection between Gaul and Ireland was made while the Gauls or at least some of them were still speaking Q-Celtic forms.  The P-Celtic probably far later spead among and between elites who emulated each other.  In many areas the change from Q to P Celtic may have involved nothing more than the local Q-Celtic speaking elite emulating another particularly prestigious elite elsewhere (perhaps who they traded with) who spoke P-Celtic.  The model I like best is an early form of Celtic (Q) was spread throught a lot of western Europe including the isles in Neolithic times.  Then at some point, I suspect far later c. 600BCish the P-Celtic dialect spread among the local elites by contact and prestige emulation rather than invasion in most areas.  

The areas that didnt emulate the change from P to Q were those which had sort of fallen out of the elite interaction 'club' by 600BC - the Iberians and Irish.  That can be seen by a lack of Hallstatt D and early La Tene artifacts in those areas (c. 600-300BC) which contrasts with much of Gaul and England where such material is common.    By being isolated from the other elites for much of that 300 year period and indeed only slightly reconnected for the next 300 years after that, the Irish and Celt-Iberians (but not the Gauls and Britons) may have missed out on the Q-P shift that the other Celtic elites took up through emulation.  I think it was Koch who came up with this model but it or a  variation of it is widely accepted.  

Another thing is that today linguists think that the P-Q shift is not the important division in Cetic and that the division between the isles Insular Celtic and the continental Celtic is the major one.  The change from P to Q is a small one that came to divide Irish and British but there are far more features that link both together as Insular Celtic and at the same time divide both from continental Celtic. A lot of the general public are still hung up on the P-Q divide but linguists and archaeologists have decades ago moved on from that and the simplistic idea of 2 invasion waves corresponding with the two branches of Celtic.  

People who do not realise that the P-Q division is no longer thought to be important and that the 2 wave invasion idea has been dead and buried for decades tend to get puzzled by the way clades like L21 do not have peaks that correspond with and indeed cut across the P-Q divide.  However, once it is realised that linguists now see the Insular/Continental Celtic divide as more important than the P-Q one, it all makes sense. Also once severed of the need to link the Q-Celtic areas with each other, the fact that L21 links the isles (both the Q-Celtic Irish and P-Celtic Britons) with northern Gaul is not a problem, makes geographical sense and certainly best fits the archaeology of most periods.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 10, 2009, 06:07:44 AM
Rich-that map somehow brings home how sparse the sampling is even with a bit of extra money thrown at it and the sheer enormity of the task of ever getting distibution maps of clades across Europe.  It also shows how skewed to the north the French sample is if you simply consider the country as split into a northern and southern half.  I guess that simply must be down to migration patterns to the America's. The one downside if that contrary to my posting earlier it is perhaps too early to draw any conclusions on southern France.    

However, to be positive, I think to be able to say that of a sample of  13 (mainly northern) French R1b men, 7 (54%) were L21+ is pretty important.  It is important also to note that Brittany was deliberately excluded from the sample.  I think the conclusion must be that L21 is very common in the non-Breton parts of northern France, apparenly more common than in England unless I am mistaken.  

We started out trying to recruit people for testing who were P312+ and negative for everything but L21. We weren't able to recruit any of those, so we had to go with a random R1b1b2 sample. The only one of the bunch I was pretty sure would be L21 was Grenier, because he had a couple of fairly close matches at 37 markers who are L21+. For the rest, it was pretty much a shot in the dark.

So, to have over half of them turn out to be L21+ seems pretty positive. Of course, we still have three left to find out about.

But I think we can say pretty confidently that L21 is common in France, at least in Northern France.

so it would be fair to say that this result was from:

 'L21 testing of a random sample of known R1b1b2 from the French Hertage Project that had not previously been subject to any SNP testing below M269'. 

I am trying to think of the fairest way of describing this 50-50 result which, although the sample is not huge, I think is pretty sensational in terms of our understanding of R1b clades.  If over half of French R1b1b2 is L21, that means that about a third of the French population is L21.  Thats higher than England is it not?  This is consistent with the apparent 50-50 hit rate for L21 during earlier French L21 testing and such a figure is totally incompatible with an isles origin of R1b, especially  when it is remembered that the test excluded Brittany.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 10, 2009, 08:38:12 AM
Thank you for clearing that up for me, Alan.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 10, 2009, 08:58:50 AM
....  The P-Celtic probably far later spead among and between elites who emulated each other.  In many areas the change from Q to P Celtic may have involved nothing more than the local Q-Celtic speaking elite emulating another particularly prestigious elite elsewhere (perhaps who they traded with) who spoke P-Celtic.  The model I like best is an early form of Celtic (Q) was spread throught a lot of western Europe including the isles in Neolithic times.  Then at some point, I suspect far later c. 600BCish the P-Celtic dialect spread among the local elites by contact and prestige emulation rather than invasion in most areas.  
.....
 the fact that L21 links the isles (both the Q-Celtic Irish and P-Celtic Britons) with northern Gaul is not a problem, makes geographical sense and certainly best fits the archaeology of most periods.
The point about Insular Celtic differentiation from Continental being more significant than P vs Q Celtic does lead to the notion that P-Celtic innovations were adopted on top of the Insular (which originally must have been Q) base....  not a big invasion, people replacement kind of thing then.

I see in the maps below that the 6th century Brythonic (subset of P-Celtic) speaking community included the tip of Amorica (Brittany) as well as at least small part of Galicia in Spain.   That part is west of our Spanish L-21* finds but it is clearly near the northwest tip of the Iberian peninsula, which is Galicia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Britonia6hcentury.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

However, it is important to remember what Alan points out, L21* is common across both many Q-Celtic and P-Celtic speaking lands....  and also Latin based (French/Spanish), English and other Germanic speaking lands.
However, all of these places are Indo-European speaking, of course except the Basques.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 10, 2009, 12:21:30 PM
It is believed by many linguists though that the Q-Celtic of the interior 'Celtiberians' was not shared by the tribes of the Atlantic and Biscay coasts of Iberia and that the latter areas may have had a 'Lusitanian' type dialect that is thought by some to be a third branch of the Celto-Italic family with features of both Celtic and Italic.  If the coastal tribes of Iberia spoke this and not Q-Celtic then its hard to see how there could be the sort of sea contact along the Atlantic along the lines sometimes suggested.  The Q-Celts of Iberia were non-coastal.  I think this is often ignored by those who wish to see a sea-linked Q-Celtic Atlantic sphere linking Iberia and Ireland.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 10, 2009, 12:41:44 PM
Is there a particular reason why the Celts settled in mountainous/upland areas? Isn't the interior of Iberia and eastern France the same geographic type?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 10, 2009, 05:39:52 PM
Is there a particular reason why the Celts settled in mountainous/upland areas? Isn't the interior of Iberia and eastern France the same geographic type?
Correct me Hubert readers, but this what I remember of his viewpoint:

I was a little confused on the Iberians and Aquitani but I think he thought there was some link.   The Iberians were strong and had the good lands and held them.  The Celtics came into Iberia and moved into mountainous areas forming enclaves amongst the Iberians.  At some point there was a merging of cultures in some areas, hence the term Celti-Iberians.

At some later point in time Aquitani also moved south into Iberia from SW France.  Possibly they were pushed by Celtic expansions from Gaul.  Of course, some think the Basques are remnants of the Aquitani.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 10, 2009, 06:14:43 PM
It is pretty well agreed by all that Aquitanian inscriptions are of an early form of Basque.  As for Iberian, scholars seems to think that it was not the same as Aquitanian/Basque but that there was possibly some sort of more distant language family link.  I personally think that it is likely that there is some sort of distant common root and that the origins of the Iberians and Basques are in some way related. 



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 10, 2009, 08:07:31 PM
so it would be fair to say that this result was from:

 'L21 testing of a random sample of known R1b1b2 from the French Hertage Project that had not previously been subject to any SNP testing below M269'. 

I am trying to think of the fairest way of describing this 50-50 result which, although the sample is not huge, I think is pretty sensational in terms of our understanding of R1b clades.  If over half of French R1b1b2 is L21, that means that about a third of the French population is L21.  Thats higher than England is it not?  This is consistent with the apparent 50-50 hit rate for L21 during earlier French L21 testing and such a figure is totally incompatible with an isles origin of R1b, especially  when it is remembered that the test excluded Brittany.

I think that is a fair way to put it.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 11, 2009, 08:32:22 AM
so it would be fair to say that this result was from:

 'L21 testing of a random sample of known R1b1b2 from the French Hertage Project that had not previously been subject to any SNP testing below M269'. 

I am trying to think of the fairest way of describing this 50-50 result which, although the sample is not huge, I think is pretty sensational in terms of our understanding of R1b clades.  If over half of French R1b1b2 is L21, that means that about a third of the French population is L21.  Thats higher than England is it not?  This is consistent with the apparent 50-50 hit rate for L21 during earlier French L21 testing and such a figure is totally incompatible with an isles origin of R1b, especially  when it is remembered that the test excluded Brittany.

I think that is a fair way to put it.
Something that struck me when I read Hubert's "History of the Celts" (BTW, he was a Frenchman) was his description of the French language as what Latin would sound like it if spoken by a Celt.

Although I doubt if France was the place of origin for the Celtics, it (perhaps with a little of Germany and Switzerland added) undoubtedly was their base for their "golden age."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Hubert


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 11, 2009, 11:23:08 AM
I noticed that the ElectricScotland website has the entire book "The Greatness and Decline of the Celts" By Henri Hubert (1934)

http://www.electricscotland.com/HISTORY/celts/


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 11, 2009, 07:19:54 PM
I recruited another Frenchman (Dupuis) for L21 testing today, so now we have four awaiting L21 results:

Dupuis (4NFFY) - La Chaussée, France (between Poitiers and Tours)
Dushane (Duchesne, V66HP) - Tours, France
Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)


Results for Lemaire and Londry are slightly overdue. Dushane's results aren't due until October 12. Dupuis' order is brand new, so it could be a couple of months before we know about that one.

Check 'em in YSearch and see what you think.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 12, 2009, 01:47:02 PM
I would think that Dupuis, Dushane, Londry will test L21+
Dushane maybe a Germanic or Central European origin but the DYS392=15 and 391=10 will keep him M269+.

We'll see.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 12, 2009, 02:13:04 PM
I would think that Dupuis, Dushane, Londry will test L21+
Dushane maybe a Germanic or Central European origin but the DYS392=15 and 391=10 will keep him M269+.

We'll see.

I hope they all are, but Lemaire is hard to call, since he has only 12 markers (which is why you did not comment on him, I guess).

Some of those I thought would be L21- have turned out to be L21+, though, and some I thought were probably L21+ turned out to be L21-. Two examples are Mireault, whom I really kind of thought would be L21-, and Simoneau, whom I thought would probably be L21+. Their results were the exact reverse of what I expected.

I appreciate you taking a stab at predicting. It makes this thread more interesting and the waiting for results a bit easier.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 12, 2009, 02:20:47 PM
I would think that Dupuis, Dushane, Londry will test L21+
Dushane maybe a Germanic or Central European origin but the DYS392=15 and 391=10 will keep him M269+.

We'll see.

I meant to state that Lemaire will test L21+ not Dushane.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 12, 2009, 02:37:04 PM
I would think that Dupuis, Dushane, Londry will test L21+
Dushane maybe a Germanic or Central European origin but the DYS392=15 and 391=10 will keep him M269+.

We'll see.

I meant to state that Lemaire will test L21+ not Dushane.

Aha!

So, your prediction is that Dupuis, Lemaire and Londry will be L21+ and Dushane will be L21-, then?

I think you are the first in this thread to be bold enough to make a prediction.

But that is good; it makes things fun!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 12, 2009, 03:04:01 PM
Well anything can happen but here is a ysearch on the four comparing to some modals.

http://tinyurl.com/4NFFY-ATSZX-HY4QH-V66HP
 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 12, 2009, 04:27:14 PM
Well anything can happen but here is a ysearch on the four comparing to some modals.

http://tinyurl.com/4NFFY-ATSZX-HY4QH-V66HP
 


Okay, you've got me wondering how the Leinster, Erainn and Colla Uais modals come into play here.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 12, 2009, 05:34:06 PM
The time frame of these groups were pre-history which is what I would think of using to compare allele values with. That’s all. All we have is a few key modals other that WAM which I havent memorized so I plug any haplotype into a group of modals to compare with. Thats why I felt that Dushane will be L21-.

If French Haplotypes appear to have more of a prehistory makeup (-1 mutations) then it can help form a timeline. I believe in the high probability of a Continental origin of L21.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 12, 2009, 07:14:42 PM

dushane does look odd man out in str terms.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 12, 2009, 07:45:51 PM

dushane does look odd man out in str terms.

It turns out Mark was right. Dushane is L21-. His result came in today (which was odd, it being Saturday).

Well, I told you all this stuff was random. I am not stuffing the candidate list with sure things here or shooting fish in a barrel.

I haven't been able to manage that. :-)

Wish I was good enough at picking out French R-L21* haplotypes to do that!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 13, 2009, 07:48:39 AM
It will be interesting to line up the French L21 STRs and see if there is any sort of pattern.  I just dont really dabble in STRs so I wouldnt be much use at it. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 13, 2009, 09:14:48 AM
It will be interesting to line up the French L21 STRs and see if there is any sort of pattern.  I just dont really dabble in STRs so I wouldnt be much use at it.  

I just ran the 67-marker French R-L21* haplotypes in McGee's Utility. I have run into some sort of problem getting the comparison tables into Google Documents, though, otherwise I would post a link to them here.

Anyway, this is the modal (in FTDNA order):

13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 16 36 36 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Looks pretty WAMHish to me, but I haven't put it into YSearch and run it. I may do that later today, if I have time.

All of the individuals are pretty far off the modal and pretty far from each other. The closest relationship (and it's not close) is between Bontron-Major, Gery and Rotrou, all of whom are a gd of 19 from each other at 67 markers. Those three are closest to the modal, as well.

In terms of TMRCA and proximity to the modal, DePort is the furthest out at 3,000 years to the modal. Bontron-Major is the closest at 1500 years out from the modal. As individuals, the widest TMRCA gap is between Hamon and DePort at 4110 years. The closest to each other are, again, Bontron-Major, Gery and Rotrou at 2280 years.

Oh, I should add that I used the Hybrid Mutational Model and 95% probability. 50% probability would have brought those TMRCA estimates down.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 13, 2009, 10:26:37 AM
It turns out Mark was right. Dushane is L21-. His result came in today (which was odd, it being Saturday)....Wish I was good enough at picking out French R-L21* haplotypes to do that!
If you like, we can start loooking at a few Haplotypes that you find in the future and see if it has any older signatures before making a final selection?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2009, 09:02:58 PM

If you like, we can start loooking at a few Haplotypes that you find in the future and see if it has any older signatures before making a final selection?

I'm not sure I know what you mean by "older signatures". What makes a seemingly odd haplotype (meaning one we don't see too much of) "older"? All the haplotypes we get are born by modern men, not ancient remains.

I don't choose to test people based on their likelihood to be L21+. Some who have been L21+ didn't look likely to be. Some who turned out to be L21- looked like they might be L21+. I choose them if they are French, predicted to be R1b1b2 and at least have a chance to be L21+, i.e., they aren't very obviously L21-. I won't pay to test a guy who has 492=13, for example, or who very obviously belongs to the R1b North-South cluster.

Otherwise, I would be cherry picking likely L21+ candidates, which, quite honestly, I don't think it is possible to do except in rare circumstances where the candidate has very close matches who are L21+. As we get more French R-L21* that latter scenario may occur more frequently among the French. But thus far only Grenier was relatively easy to call like that, and even he wasn't a slam dunk.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 15, 2009, 09:15:01 AM

Ancestral signature is what I was referring to. The oldest known or hypothesized haplotype for a particular lineage. Assuming most STRs with lower allele values mutatate upwards 2/3's of the time. Modern men, at least in the R1b are compared to WAM Modal with vary little variance. So if an R1b haplotype has a specifc Loci allele that is two or three less than a specific modal value, I relate that specific R1b Haplotype as an older Haplotype signature as compared to the modal.


I'm not sure I know what you mean by "older signatures". What makes a seemingly odd haplotype (meaning one we don't see too much of) "older"? All the haplotypes we get are born by modern men, not ancient remains.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2009, 05:18:52 PM

Ancestral signature is what I was referring to. The oldest known or hypothesized haplotype for a particular lineage. Assuming most STRs with lower allele values mutatate upwards 2/3's of the time. Modern men, at least in the R1b are compared to WAM Modal with vary little variance. So if an R1b haplotype has a specifc Loci allele that is two or three less than a specific modal value, I relate that specific R1b Haplotype as an older Haplotype signature as compared to the modal.

I'm not sure what hypothesized haplotype you would be comparing to in this case, since the R-L21* modal is pretty much just WAMH. I don't think it is of much use to compare continental Europeans to two or three Irish modals.

Even though R-L21* is generally pretty WAMHish, we do have a few oddball haplotypes among our members. I doubt if anyone would have predicted them to be L21+.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 15, 2009, 07:53:03 PM
I have been looking at the river systems and uplands, L21 maps and LBK maps  to try to creat a model of the exact route that would be taken by a group of settlers moving from the Upper Rhine into northern France, in particular the west German L21 cluster in the Rhineland and the north French L21 cluster.  The most obvious route is the Mosselle River which links the Rhineland with northern France (I think through Lorraine and Champagne) after first passing along the southern border of Luxemburg. 

There is also another route into the Paris basin via the Meuse River which links the Lower Rhine area with the Paris Basin (actually linking with the Mosselle too at one point) after passing through southern Belgium.  Uplands in the Rhineland, Luxemburg, southern Belgium and eastern France seperate these two riverine routes. 

Both routes may have been used in the Linearbandkeramik spread from the Rhine into northern France but I think to date the southern Mosselle route looks like the one where L21 passed into France in most strength.  Admittedly that may change.  Given that the Mossele actually grazes the southern border of Luxemburg, I cant help thinking that if this theory is correct then there should be a good doze of L21 there. 

I personally think the Linearbandkeramik and R1b spread are related.  Perhaps a mixed group of L21, S28, S116* and S21 all came up the Rhine but a founder effect happened at the Mosselle entrance into France that strongly favoured L21 while another group heading further up the Rhine had founder effects that favoured other clades like S21 and S28 before they turned into southern Belgium and NE France via the Meuse.

PS Apologies if I am mispelling the river names.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 15, 2009, 08:50:09 PM
Anyway upshot of the Moselle River route theory is that it highlights Lorraine and Champagne (untested to date) as the 'missing link' of the route of L21 into northern France, if the west-of-Paris northern French group really does link with the Upper Rhine German group.  The route is also apparently one of only two obvious riverine routes into northern France from Germany that the Neolithic Linearbandkeramik culture could have taken too.  Its a matter of opinion if the L21 and LBK are really connected but I keep seeing parallels between the two.

I think the near-blind current phase of testing of French R1b1b2 was the right approach as it provides useful stat for L21 in France that a cherry picked sample wouldnt have done.  However, when the last few test of this phase are over and the final stat is clear, I think we need to move onto the opposite approach of deiberate targetting of unsampled areas of France.  I would personally think that Lorraine and Champagne would be of stand out importance in terms of the many undersampled areas of France because of its position between the French and German L21 groups.    


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Chuck Blandford on September 15, 2009, 10:30:45 PM
Quote
Its a matter of opinion if the L21 and LBK are really connected but I keep seeing parallels between the two.

Would you envision a LBK migration across the channel to southern England?  How would this fit with Scot and Irish L21 which seems to have come from the east not the south.  Could this be a different migration which populated the Amesbury Archer and Stonehenge areas of southern England?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 15, 2009, 11:40:54 PM
That was my thought too that I mentioned in the:  Re: R1b in the French Heritage Project
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 11:40:31 AM »

The River was the main trade routes which cover areas you thought that should be reviewed in that forum.

I have been looking at the river systems and uplands, L21 maps and LBK maps  to try to creat a model of the exact route that would be taken by a group of settlers moving from the Upper Rhine into northern France, in particular the west German L21 cluster in the Rhineland and the north French L21 cluster.  The most obvious route is the Mosselle River which links the Rhineland with northern France (I think through Lorraine and Champagne) after first passing along the southern border of Luxemburg. 

There is also another route into the Paris basin via the Meuse River which links the Lower Rhine area with the Paris Basin (actually linking with the Mosselle too at one point) after passing through southern Belgium.  Uplands in the Rhineland, Luxemburg, southern Belgium and eastern France seperate these two riverine routes. 

Both routes may have been used in the Linearbandkeramik spread from the Rhine into northern France but I think to date the southern Mosselle route looks like the one where L21 passed into France in most strength.  Admittedly that may change.  Given that the Mossele actually grazes the southern border of Luxemburg, I cant help thinking that if this theory is correct then there should be a good doze of L21 there. 

I personally think the Linearbandkeramik and R1b spread are related.  Perhaps a mixed group of L21, S28, S116* and S21 all came up the Rhine but a founder effect happened at the Mosselle entrance into France that strongly favoured L21 while another group heading further up the Rhine had founder effects that favoured other clades like S21 and S28 before they turned into southern Belgium and NE France via the Meuse.

PS Apologies if I am mispelling the river names.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 15, 2009, 11:46:49 PM
I need to chew on this a bit about the split here....concerning 1000-1500 bce time frame that this would occur and what factors allowed somemany SNP to occure.

Edit: And what was the path from Mossel to the Siene river. Were there LBK finds in that area?

Also I agree that I would think a specific target of those in that area would be in order. There are alot of R1b1b2 and P312 that need to be tested for Deeper clades.

Anyway upshot of the Moselle River route theory is that it highlights Lorraine and Champagne (untested to date) as the 'missing link' of the route of L21 into northern France, if the west-of-Paris northern French group really does link with the Upper Rhine German group.  The route is also apparently one of only two obvious riverine routes into northern France from Germany that the Neolithic Linearbandkeramik culture could have taken too.  Its a matter of opinion if the L21 and LBK are really connected but I keep seeing parallels between the two.

I think the near-blind current phase of testing of French R1b1b2 was the right approach as it provides useful stat for L21 in France that a cherry picked sample wouldnt have done.  However, when the last few test of this phase are over and the final stat is clear, I think we need to move onto the opposite approach of deiberate targetting of unsampled areas of France.  I would personally think that Lorraine and Champagne would be of stand out importance in terms of the many undersampled areas of France because of its position between the French and German L21 groups.    



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 16, 2009, 04:18:23 AM
That was my thought too that I mentioned in the:  Re: R1b in the French Heritage Project
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 11:40:31 AM »

The River was the main trade routes which cover areas you thought that should be reviewed in that forum.. 

I was really struggling until I found this map which can be clicked and zoomed and combines physical, nation and regional boundaries (the latter in Germany only).  http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/index.html


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 16, 2009, 07:37:50 PM
Thats a great map. Thanks for sharing.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 17, 2009, 11:50:17 AM
I have been looking at the river systems and uplands, L21 maps and LBK maps  to try to creat a model of the exact route that would be taken by a group of settlers moving from the Upper Rhine into northern France, in particular the west German L21 cluster in the Rhineland and the north French L21 cluster.  The most obvious route is the Mosselle River which links the Rhineland with northern France (I think through Lorraine and Champagne) after first passing along the southern border of Luxemburg. 

There is also another route into the Paris basin via the Meuse River which links the Lower Rhine area with the Paris Basin (actually linking with the Mosselle too at one point) after passing through southern Belgium.  Uplands in the Rhineland, Luxemburg, southern Belgium and eastern France seperate these two riverine routes. 

Both routes may have been used in the Linearbandkeramik spread from the Rhine into northern France but I think to date the southern Mosselle route looks like the one where L21 passed into France in most strength.  Admittedly that may change.  Given that the Mossele actually grazes the southern border of Luxemburg, I cant help thinking that if this theory is correct then there should be a good doze of L21 there. 

I personally think the Linearbandkeramik and R1b spread are related.  Perhaps a mixed group of L21, S28, S116* and S21 all came up the Rhine but a founder effect happened at the Mosselle entrance into France that strongly favoured L21 while another group heading further up the Rhine had founder effects that favoured other clades like S21 and S28 before they turned into southern Belgium and NE France via the Meuse. ...
Right now we are not seeing much R-L21* in the Low Countries.   Here is some research that thinks I-L38 often appears with R-L21* so they may have been brothers in the same spread.
http://www.geocities.com/a_long_tale/Origins_of_Hg_I_L38_subclades.pdf

Look at the map of the Netherlands in this paper.  The author notes
"Whereas the coastal distribution of haplogroup I (dominantly I-M253 and I-M223) in the Netherlands supports a Saxon origin; the distribution of I-L38 does not. If I-L38 had a Saxon origin the samples would be found grouped together with the other haplogroup I samples along the North Sea coast and in Frisia."

Could I-L38 have clues about where we'll R-L21*?   If so, R-L21* could be quite scattered in the vicinity.  This might indicate that R-L21* and tribal brother I-L38 moved into the Low Countries before the Saxons and moved on into Britain.  Of course the Saxons then would have come into the Frisian Coast and diluted the remaining R-L21*.

Any merit to this?  Could the main thrust of R-L21* into the Isles been through the Netherlands and Belgium, not French Normandy and points west or at least not points west of Normandy?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 17, 2009, 02:09:04 PM

Right now we are not seeing much R-L21* in the Low Countries.   Here is some research that thinks I-L38 often appears with R-L21* so they may have been brothers in the same spread.
http://www.geocities.com/a_long_tale/Origins_of_Hg_I_L38_subclades.pdf

Look at the map of the Netherlands in this paper.  The author notes
"Whereas the coastal distribution of haplogroup I (dominantly I-M253 and I-M223) in the Netherlands supports a Saxon origin; the distribution of I-L38 does not. If I-L38 had a Saxon origin the samples would be found grouped together with the other haplogroup I samples along the North Sea coast and in Frisia."

Could I-L38 have clues about where we'll R-L21*?   If so, R-L21* could be quite scattered in the vicinity.  This might indicate that R-L21* and tribal brother I-L38 moved into the Low Countries before the Saxons and moved on into Britain.  Of course the Saxons then would have come into the Frisian Coast and diluted the remaining R-L21*.

Any merit to this?  Could the main thrust of R-L21* into the Isles been through the Netherlands and Belgium, not French Normandy and points west or at least not points west of Normandy?

Not all Netherlands R-L21* have joined the R-L21 Plus Project. I had FTDNA write to them (at least two more that I know of), but they never joined.

There are also a few Belgians who show up on the Y-DNA Matches pages of some of our project members. Huet and Rotrou, for examples, have a close Belgian match (the same man). I wrote to that guy, as well as some others, but thus far he has not responded. (Or he has quietly ordered a Deep Clade-R or an L21 test and we'll hear from him in a month or two . . . and it will seem like a bolt out of the blue.)

So I am not entirely certain the hole one sees on the map in the Low Countries is real. It could just be apparent.

Just the same, I don't think the Netherlands will exactly be an L21 hotspot - too much U106 there. I'm not sure about Belgium in the long run, however.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 18, 2009, 06:32:42 AM
Just dawned on me looking at the LBK map that although more than one river leads into northern France from the Rhine, the northern part of the Lower Rhine was not settled in the LBK phase so rivers like the Meuse leading into France from that part of the Rhine cannot have been the route into France from the Rhine for LBK.  Those rivers only seem to have had their upper parts of their valleys settled not the bits near the Rhine.  If you consider the LBK map and the river map then the Mosselle River really does look like the smoking gun for the arrival of LBK into northern France.  It is the most northerly river leading west from an LBK settled stretch of the Rhine.  It leads right into the LBK area of France.  From there the interfluves were maybe crossed into the upper valleys of the other rivers of northern France (no French rivers other than the Mosselle had their lower stretches or parts that met the Rhine settled by LBK).  So, the Mosselle could have been THE route into France.  

Whether that has any bearing in L21 is a matter of opinion but the same river lies along the path between northern France and the Rhineland where the two main continental L21 concentrations are located.  It again highlights that the undersampled Lorraine and Champagne region is the most likely missing link between the French and German concentrations. Lorraine's genetics may  have complications due to some Germanic settlement there but I am not aware of Champagne having similar issues.  

Champagne in this model would have been where the Mosselle was left and the interfluves crossed into the  upper streches of other rivers of northern France.  Champagne is unusual in that all of the major rivers of northern France (that cluster that all link to the Seine) have their upper reaches passing through Champagne.  I cant say that is at all certain but I think this model has a lot going for it.

PS One last thing to chew on is the fact that two of the three areas of richest early La Tene cullture burials fall into the Mosselle and Champagne region (the other was Bohemia). So that puts the highlight on this area even more.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 18, 2009, 07:05:06 AM
Actually it is interesting if you look at the project maps that S28 is stronger to the south where the richest of the old Hallstatt D chiefdoms were located close to the Alps and their passes while the richest Early La Tene chiefdoms were located in a band further north, an area that includes the German L21 concentration.  It should be noted that despite the La Tene culture being named after a place in Switzerland, the real power centres of the early La Tene culture lay further north in a band from Champagne through the Rhineland and into Bohemia. So, as the only well sampled part of that band, the clade breakdown in the Rhineland is very interesting.   Despite the fact that S28 has been known for much longer than L21, L21 clearly is better represented in that area than S28.  The Rhineland would appear to be the best sampled area outside the isles as far as I can see from the project maps.   This again makes the claim of S28 to be THE Gaulish clade look very weak.  S28 seems centred further to the south near the Alps, an area where the strongest traces of Hallstatt D culture that preceded La Tene are located but which became more peripheral in La Tene times.  If S28 was centred south of L21 in Gaul, this might explain why S28 but not L21 seems to have arrived in Italy.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 20, 2009, 07:07:37 PM
Okay, I have been able to recruit for L21 testing a man whose most distant y-dna ancestor came from Pratz, Luxembourg. If he is L21+ (and I think the chances are good), that will go a little way, at least, toward linking up our R-L21* Rhinelanders and our R-L21* Northern French.

This gentleman, whose ancestral surname is Conrardy, has 406S1=11 and 617=13, which thus far has mostly been L21+. Those values are fair indicators, but they are not a sure thing.

Let's hope that in this case they are truly indicative of a pending L21+ result.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 21, 2009, 03:29:42 PM
I have been looking for Roman Road Maps and found this at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treveri

As mentioned in the article, Treveri is a possible connection between Central France and the Central Rhine area since the territory of the Treveri had formed part of the Hunsrück-Eifel culture, covering the Hallstatt D and La Tène A-B periods (from 600 to 250 BCE). Notice the Roman Roads in green on the Map.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 21, 2009, 03:39:58 PM
Now that might be the correct location to start with as this was a Celtic tribe in what is now Luxembourg during and after the La Tène period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Luxembourg

Okay, I have been able to recruit for L21 testing a man whose most distant y-dna ancestor came from Pratz, Luxembourg. If he is L21+ (and I think the chances are good), that will go a little way, at least, toward linking up our R-L21* Rhinelanders and our R-L21* Northern French.

This gentleman, whose ancestral surname is Conrardy, has 406S1=11 and 617=13, which thus far has mostly been L21+. Those values are fair indicators, but they are not a sure thing.

Let's hope that in this case they are truly indicative of a pending L21+ result.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 21, 2009, 06:20:24 PM
..... It should be noted that despite the La Tene culture being named after a place in Switzerland, the real power centres of the early La Tene culture lay further north in a band from Champagne through the Rhineland and into Bohemia. So, as the only well sampled part of that band, the clade breakdown in the Rhineland is very interesting.   Despite the fact that S28 has been known for much longer than L21, L21 clearly is better represented in that area than S28.  The Rhineland would appear to be the best sampled area outside the isles as far as I can see from the project maps.   This again makes the claim of S28 to be THE Gaulish clade look very weak.  S28 seems centred further to the south near the Alps, an area where the strongest traces of Hallstatt D culture that preceded La Tene are located but which became more peripheral in La Tene times.  If S28 was centred south of L21 in Gaul, this might explain why S28 but not L21 seems to have arrived in Italy.
Am I understanding this correctly?     S28 (aka U152) has higher proportions associated with Hallstat locations whereas L21 has higher proportions with La Tene locations than U152.  If so, that messes up some folks' suppositions. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 21, 2009, 08:18:10 PM
Here is a map I created using Project maps and added Rhine (Red Stickpins) and Mossel (teal)  Rivers. As you see U152 (yellow ballons), L21 (Blue) and Purple (P312).

http://tinyurl.com/mogfzw



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 22, 2009, 06:38:51 AM
Am I understanding this correctly?     S28 (aka U152) has higher proportions associated with Hallstat locations whereas L21 has higher proportions with La Tene locations than U152.  If so, that messes up some folks' suppositions. 

All I am saying is the classic Hallstatt D epicentre runs in a band close to the Alps while the early La Tene epicentre is to the north running in a parallel band from Champagne through the Rhineland and on to Bohemia.  If you look at the L21 and S28 project maps you will see that L21 is more common in the Rhineland, the only well tested part of the La Tene core as I have just defined it.  S28 is there too but L21 and S21 are actually a lot better represented.  There has not been enough testing to comment on the rest of the La Tene core area. 

On the other hand S28 is more common in a band to the south around the Alps.  That sort of Alpine concentration is closer to the Hallstatt D core.

I dont really know what that implies but its interesting


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 22, 2009, 07:23:18 AM
I am actually a strong believer that a mixed bag of S116 clades probably arrived into the future Celtic lands at some point in the Neolithic and spread throughout most (but maybe not all) of their present distribution in that period.  I also think that was also the main period of Celtic or proto-Celtic dispersal, not the Iron Age as used to be commonly thought.  There was clearly some later movement but I think it was minor in most of the west and really involved tribes conquering lands from older tribes of the same genetic bachground as them. 

There are however patterns in the S116 clades. These could relate to founder effects on arrival or they could relate to Niall type proliferations due to a royal lineages.  Perhaps near the Alps their was a royal lineage that was S28 while to the north of that area in northern France and the Rhineland the royal lineages included important L21 ones.  Perhaps the S28 lineages had their period of maximum growth in Hallstatt D when the Alpine Celtic tribes had their greatest period of wealth while L21 enjoyed a period of growth when the area to the north had the wealth (early La Tene).  I think the concept of expansion due to periods of ascendancies of chiefly lines in the Iron Age is valid but must remain seperated from the explanation of actual initial spread of the clade which probably took place far earlier. 

However, I think it was worth pointing out that S28's  area of dominance is  in the Alpine area and that is not the core of the La Tene world.  The often claimed link between S28 and La Tene or Gauls or continental Celts needs to be modified or shared with L21 and S116*.  It is only dominant over L21 etc in the areas closest to the Alps.  There are major parts of the old Gaulish lands like the Rhineland as well as northern France where it is pretty certain that L21 is more common that S28.  The truth is each clade may predominate alternately in a patchy way across the Celtic world.

The project maps are interesting because L21 relative to S28 is probably underepresented due to the fact S28 has been available for testing for far longer and the fact that L21 was discovered just as the world economy popped.  Despite that, there are areas like northern France and south-west Germany where a lot more L21 than S28 has been found.  The high show of L21 in these areas despite very modest testing shows how very common L21 must be in these former Gaulish Celtic lands.

I suspect from watching project results coming in that L21 may be more common per head in a chunk of former Celtic Gaulish lands than it is in modern England.  So, the isles L21 peak needs to be renamed the Celtic fringe L21 peak.  England cannot be a peak if has less L21 than Northern France.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 22, 2009, 08:02:36 AM
http://www.jogg.info/42/index.html

Interesting article about the Flemish DNA.  As far as I understand the Flemish are the Germani speaking element of northern Belgium and have ancestral links with the Dutch.  Basically, of the former lands of Gaul, northern Belgium is perhaps one of the areas which we can most expect had an influx of German genes, heavy enough to change the language from Celtic to Germanic.   Anyway, what stands out for me is that S21 is only a third of Flemish R1b.  I wonder what the breakdown of the remaining two-thirds is? 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 22, 2009, 10:42:29 AM
Well, like you said too, there's a shortage of testees from that area anyway. We know there's more L21 in the Netherlands and Denmark, but getting those people to join the group is difficult.

What I don't understand is the abundance of L-21 in Norway. It must've crossed over from Denmark to get there. The same thing holds true with southern Sweden. L-21 is found there too, from Gothenburg to Ostrogotland.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 22, 2009, 11:26:19 AM
I am actually a strong believer that a mixed bag of S116 clades probably arrived into the future Celtic lands at some point in the Neolithic and spread throughout most (but maybe not all) of their present distribution in that period.  I also think that was also the main period of Celtic or proto-Celtic dispersal, not the Iron Age as used to be commonly thought.  There was clearly some later movement but I think it was minor in most of the west and really involved tribes conquering lands from older tribes of the same genetic bachground as them. 
.....
What is your opinion of which cultures spread the IE languages (such as Celtic) to Europe?   I take it you are saying although P312/S116 clades spread with the great LBK expansion, but they were probably not Celtic.   Somewhere along the line, IE speaking tribes that included P312/S116 clades expanded and overthrew the non-IE speakers.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 22, 2009, 12:49:04 PM
 [/quote]
What is your opinion of which cultures spread the IE languages (such as Celtic) to Europe?   I take it you are saying although P312/S116 clades spread with the great LBK expansion, but they were probably not Celtic.   Somewhere along the line, IE speaking tribes that included P312/S116 clades expanded and overthrew the non-IE speakers.
[/quote]

I am unsure.  There is a neat simplicity about IE languages spreading with the first farmers.  It sort of pairs the most important demographic movement and social change in history with the predominant language family's arrival.  That way we dont have to look at them being overthrown at all.  Its not perfect but the alternative late Neolithic/Copper age arrival (Kurgan theory etc) involves a theory with a chain of (many missing)links of Byzantine complexity which seems the opposite of the Occam's Razor rule. However, truth is nobody knows and maybe the complex picture is the right one. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 22, 2009, 01:07:19 PM
Well, like you said too, there's a shortage of testees from that area anyway. We know there's more L21 in the Netherlands and Denmark, but getting those people to join the group is difficult.

What I don't understand is the abundance of L-21 in Norway. It must've crossed over from Denmark to get there. The same thing holds true with southern Sweden. L-21 is found there too, from Gothenburg to Ostrogotland.

It is odd, given that people do not think North Germany, Holland etc have a lot of L21, that it seems common in Norway.  Its sort of the odd man out as otherwise L21 seems largely Celtic in distribution.  Could be pure chance of founder effects deep in prehistory or perhaps Viking slavery really did have a big impact there.  I really have no idea.  The beaker idea doesnt work all that well seeing as Norway didnt really take part in that.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 22, 2009, 01:28:56 PM
I think until we get a good chunk of that non-U106 R1b in Denmark and northern Germany tested for L21, we have to speculate on how L21 got so numerous in Norway.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 22, 2009, 07:51:39 PM
It is odd, given that people do not think North Germany, Holland etc have a lot of L21, that it seems common in Norway.  Its sort of the odd man out as otherwise L21 seems largely Celtic in distribution.  Could be pure chance of founder effects deep in prehistory or perhaps Viking slavery really did have a big impact there.  I really have no idea.  The beaker idea doesnt work all that well seeing as Norway didnt really take part in that.  

As I understand it, there was a Beaker intrusion into Norway that could very well explain the presence of R-L21 there.

http://events.um.edu.mt/eaa2008/prescott.pdf (http://events.um.edu.mt/eaa2008/prescott.pdf)

Quote
THE BEAKER CULTURE AND BRONZE AGE BEGINNINGS ALONG THE NORWEGIAN COAST; SO MUCH SO FAST (Christopher Prescott, Institute of Archaeology, University of Oslo, Norway)

The Late Neolithic (the LN,2350-1750 BC) in Norway can be regarded as the initiation of the Bronze Age in southern and coastal Norway. LN-developments were probably sparked by Beaker influences, conceivably also migration, from northern Jutland in Denmark to Lista and Jæren in Southern Norway, and are thus part of wider southern Scandinavian development around the Battle Axe Period to LNBeaker transition.

From these geographically and chronologically restricted beginnings, early LN technology, modes of production and culture quickly spread throughout southern and coastal [Norway] replacing older social, cultural and production forms, and redefining a historical trajectory. Spreading perhaps as far as 1000 km from the Beaker areas in Lista and Rogaland, the speed in which these wide-reaching and dramatic changes took place is equally remarkable, perhaps taking place within a generation.

LATE NEOLITHIC EXPANSION TO NORWAY – MEMORIES OF A SEA-BORNE EPISODE (Einar Østmo, Museum of Cultural History, University of Oslo, Norway)

During the Early and Middle Neolithic, South Scandinavian Neolithic cultures were present in Norway foremost in the Oslo Fiord region in SE Norway. Late Neolithic finds are however abundant above all in SW Norway, certainly testifying to the opening of the sea route across the Skagerrak. These finds include Bell Beaker pottery and pressure-flaked points with tang and barbs, in addition to numerous flint daggers and other items. Arguably, the sea-borne expansion was connected with recent inventions concerning shipbuilding, probably made possible by the new metal tools, foremost axes. This marks the beginning of the Northern shipbuilding tradition, distinct from those found in Britain and in the Mediterranean and gave rise to the development of Scandinavian shipbuilding during the Bronze and Iron Ages.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 22, 2009, 08:55:03 PM
Updating the list to add yet another French R-L21*,  La Tour (#12):

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
6. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
8. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
9. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
10. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
11. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
12. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
13. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
14. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
15. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
16. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
17. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
18. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
19. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


Peyrignac is farther south than is usual for an R-L21*, but it's in the northeastern part of Aquitaine, near the border of Limousin.

Am I wrong in my impression that France is really starting to produce the hits for R-L21*, even when we don't recruit them?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 22, 2009, 10:30:20 PM
What is your opinion of which cultures spread the IE languages (such as Celtic) to Europe?   I take it you are saying although P312/S116 clades spread with the great LBK expansion, but they were probably not Celtic.   Somewhere along the line, IE speaking tribes that included P312/S116 clades expanded and overthrew the non-IE speakers.
[/quote]

I am unsure.  There is a neat simplicity about IE languages spreading with the first farmers.  It sort of pairs the most important demographic movement and social change in history with the predominant language family's arrival.  That way we dont have to look at them being overthrown at all.  Its not perfect but the alternative late Neolithic/Copper age arrival (Kurgan theory etc) involves a theory with a chain of (many missing)links of Byzantine complexity which seems the opposite of the Occam's Razor rule. However, truth is nobody knows and maybe the complex picture is the right one.  
[/quote]
===========================================
It is very reasonable to expect that the LBK and/or Impressed Wares Neolithic (agricultural) expansions brought some P312/S116 and subclades with them.  That does mean that the TMRCA purist calculations for P312/M269 are too young.

However, the IE language sweep across Europe was also a mighty impact as one can see by the languages Europeans speak.  The latest age calculations and placements on PIE also seem a bit too young for the Neolithic expansions.  It seems likely that some types of P312/S116 and also S21/U106 subclades of M269 must have carried and expanded with IE languages somehow.  

As you note, Copper/Bronze age pastoralists, the Bell Beakers, also made a impact.

Farmers, the IE languages, and Bronze/Copper tool pastoralists.....  all apparent east to west expansions, as is R-M269 (as shown by the ht35 project.)  Leaves one to wonder.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 23, 2009, 12:04:42 AM

12. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
...
Peyrignac is farther south than is usual for an R-L21*, but it's in the northeastern part of Aquitaine, near the border of Limousin.

Am I wrong in my impression that France is really starting to produce the hits for R-L21*, even when we don't recruit them?
Thank you for the update.

Do you have a kit# for La Tour?  My eyes must be going but I don't see him on the project page.

Peyrignac, if I've found the right one, is not too far from the Massif Central mountains/plateau's region.  It may be in the current Department of Aquitane but I think this is still quite a ways north of the Garonne River and ancient Aquitane.   It would have been considered Gaul by the Romans, right?




Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 23, 2009, 07:36:48 AM

Thank you for the update.

Do you have a kit# for La Tour?  My eyes must be going but I don't see him on the project page.

Peyrignac, if I've found the right one, is not too far from the Massif Central mountains/plateau's region.  It may be in the current Department of Aquitane but I think this is still quite a ways north of the Garonne River and ancient Aquitane.   It would have been considered Gaul by the Romans, right?

I don't have a kit number for La Tour yet. I have contacted him via YSearch but haven't heard back from him nor has he joined the project yet. I hope he will, of course.

Yes, Peyrignac would not have been in historic, old Aquitania. It's too far north. It is in what Caesar called Gallia Celtica: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png)

Peyrignac is well north of the Garonne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MapGaronne.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MapGaronne.jpg)).

When I list someone I use the modern place name, otherwise things can get confusing.

But it is a good thing to point out that thus far most of the L21 in France is in old Gallia Celtica and none of it has been found yet in old Aquitania.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 23, 2009, 12:54:01 PM
La Tour just joined the R-L21 Plus Project this morning, kit 156432, YSearch ZSEB7.

He has close matches to a Reed but also to a Rideau. I'm guessing Rideau is also the original surname of the match with the surname "Reed".


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 26, 2009, 06:27:21 PM
It is quite amazing how difficult getting a sample from across France to test L21 is.  I suppose the recent burst of testing with postive results might mean people of French heritage realise that L21 is common in France and its therefore an SNP well worth them testing for with fairly good odds of them getting a positive result.  Before it was known that it was common in France, it may have not seemed a particularly attractive option for French heritage testers.  Hopefully word on L21 will get back to them and encourage some spontanious test ordering. 

Of course this will not tell us when it arrived in France and its very unlikely that can be proven one way or another so the speculation fun will continue indefinately until y-DNA STR or SNP based indirect dating techniques are agreed or the extraction of ancient y-DNA becomes routinely possible.  Until then all we can prove is presence, absence (absolute or relative) and prevellance and try to infer from distribution (if unscewed maps can ever be achieved).  The only other angle is what Vince V has been driving at- looking to see if clade distribution and phylogenetic tree positions of these clades together suggest routes and directions of spread.       


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 26, 2009, 11:35:31 PM
It is quite amazing how difficult getting a sample from across France to test L21 is.  ....
This reminds me, smile, of conversations I've had with my French brother-in-law and his mother.  They don't need to do any genetic testing because they already knew who they were.    They were French!

Oh well, people of all persuasions have their objections.  Although I suspect almost everyone has some curiousity, some will say who they are is what is important.  Good point.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 27, 2009, 03:01:03 PM
It is quite amazing how difficult getting a sample from across France to test L21 is.  I suppose the recent burst of testing with postive results might mean people of French heritage realise that L21 is common in France and its therefore an SNP well worth them testing for with fairly good odds of them getting a positive result.  Before it was known that it was common in France, it may have not seemed a particularly attractive option for French heritage testers.  Hopefully word on L21 will get back to them and encourage some spontanious test ordering.  

Of course this will not tell us when it arrived in France and its very unlikely that can be proven one way or another so the speculation fun will continue indefinately until y-DNA STR or SNP based indirect dating techniques are agreed or the extraction of ancient y-DNA becomes routinely possible.  Until then all we can prove is presence, absence (absolute or relative) and prevellance and try to infer from distribution (if unscewed maps can ever be achieved).  The only other angle is what Vince V has been driving at- looking to see if clade distribution and phylogenetic tree positions of these clades together suggest routes and directions of spread.      

Part of the problem, as has been mentioned before, is that it seems most French Canadians (who form a big part of our recruitment pool) have ancestry in NW France. That makes it tougher to find candidates from other parts of France.

Here is another thing that I think has discouraged many continentals, French and otherwise, from testing for L21 or concerning themselves with it. When L21 first became available, and we had the initial burst of Irish and other British Isles results, a number of hasty and ill-advised persons immediately leapt to the conclusion that L21 is somehow uniquely British or Irish and began speculating that any of it found on the Continent could be chalked up to fornicating medieval Irish monks or randy Scottish merchants.

Well, not everyone out there wants to be British or Irish. I realize that such a thing is hard to imagine, but it is true. So, why test for an SNP that could reveal that one is not really French or German or Swedish or whatever at all, but the scion of a line begun by a lecherous and hypocritical Hibernian cenobite?

I'm not sure how much this early shooting-off-of-the-mouth hurt our cause, but my impression is that it did to at least some extent.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on September 27, 2009, 04:02:12 PM
It is odd, given that people do not think North Germany, Holland etc have a lot of L21, that it seems common in Norway.  Its sort of the odd man out as otherwise L21 seems largely Celtic in distribution.  Could be pure chance of founder effects deep in prehistory or perhaps Viking slavery really did have a big impact there.  I really have no idea.  The beaker idea doesnt work all that well seeing as Norway didnt really take part in that.  
I doubt Viking slavery is the answer to the large presence of L21 in Norway. If that were the case, L21 should be just as common in Denmark as in Norway, as Danish Vikings were probably more numerous in Britain than those from Norway, and were certainly just as involved in the slave trade. I believe Hedeby in Denmark was the center of the Viking slave trade in Scandinavia.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 27, 2009, 05:09:41 PM
.....
Here is another thing that I think has discouraged many continentals, French and otherwise, from testing for L21 or concerning themselves with it. When L21 first became available, and we had the initial burst of Irish and other British Isles results, a number of hasty and ill-advised persons immediately leapt to the conclusion that L21 is somehow uniquely British or Irish and began speculating that any of it found on the Continent could be chalked up to fornicating medieval Irish monks or randy Scottish merchants. ....
Yes, I think  the Euopedia site was calling L21 "Britano-Irish" or something like that.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on September 27, 2009, 05:22:22 PM
You know, I agree with you concerning “ill-advised”, “shooting-off-of-the-mouth”, and I’ll add uninformed posters. This weekend I complained about the most prominent one in this hobby to the administrator of the Rootsweb DNA L List. It does no good! He posts whatever nonsense or lies he wants to without consequence. Of course, it’s frustrating and damages the hobby. Neandertalism sums it up perfectly. There are those in this hobby who prefer the way things were and do not want to move forward.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 28, 2009, 05:15:35 PM
OK....back on topic, I was reading on a website (so it must be true lol) there that the Canadian, Cajun and Louisiana French dialects are all northern French ones (although that may simply mean derived from the northern half of France).  That agrees with the fact that the sample is pretty lacking in south French heritage people.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 28, 2009, 05:20:32 PM
OK....back on topic, I was reading on a website (so it must be true lol) there that the Canadian, Cajun and Louisiana French dialects are all northern French ones (although that may simply mean derived from the northern half of France).  That agrees with the fact that the sample is pretty lacking in south French heritage people.   
Yes, it is highly unfortunate, but much of our view of France and many other countries as well has been filtered to the New World migration pipeline.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 28, 2009, 05:26:42 PM
Jacques Cartier himself was a Breton.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 28, 2009, 06:05:49 PM
I have been looking for Roman Road Maps and found this at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treveri

As mentioned in the article, Treveri is a possible connection between Central France and the Central Rhine area since the territory of the Treveri had formed part of the Hunsrück-Eifel culture, covering the Hallstatt D and La Tène A-B periods (from 600 to 250 BCE). Notice the Roman Roads in green on the Map.

Another Roman Road map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Roman_Empire_125.svg



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on September 28, 2009, 06:35:52 PM
“I was reading on a website (so it must be true lol)”

Hey, simply because we are part of an online community does not mean our research and science should be laughed at! My online research is no joke! My online research does not need validation from anyone in the amateur or professional academic community.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 28, 2009, 06:44:54 PM
“I was reading on a website (so it must be true lol)”

Hey, simply because we are part of an online community does not mean our research and science should be laughed at! My online research is no joke! My online research does not need validation from anyone in the amateur or professional academic community.

Thats not at all what I meant Glenn.  I was thinking of sites like Google answers (which is crazy)  and Wikipedia (which is variable). No slight at anyones research endevours was intended.  In fact is that this hobby more than most is one where it seems to be the hobbiests who provide the cutting edge and of course much of the funding.  I have been nothing but amazed at the dedication of DNA hobbiests and its to be admired.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on September 28, 2009, 06:51:22 PM
"I have been nothing but amazed at the dedication of DNA hobbiests and its to be admired." 


I agree most of us are doing a great service for our hobby! 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 29, 2009, 08:22:25 AM
It is odd, given that people do not think North Germany, Holland etc have a lot of L21, that it seems common in Norway.  Its sort of the odd man out as otherwise L21 seems largely Celtic in distribution.  Could be pure chance of founder effects deep in prehistory or perhaps Viking slavery really did have a big impact there.  I really have no idea.  The beaker idea doesnt work all that well seeing as Norway didnt really take part in that.  
I doubt Viking slavery is the answer to the large presence of L21 in Norway. If that were the case, L21 should be just as common in Denmark as in Norway, as Danish Vikings were probably more numerous in Britain than those from Norway, and were certainly just as involved in the slave trade. I believe Hedeby in Denmark was the center of the Viking slave trade in Scandinavia.

My own inexpert opinion is that the vikings did not haul that many slaves from Britain home to Scandinavia but rather sold those they had in the markets they created for that purpose in Dublin, Limerick and Cork. According to Gwyn Jones, who is an expert on the vikings, their favorite slave hunting ground was the Baltic coastal region. That makes sense to me because it was so close to home.

At any rate, Scandinavia did not have the sort of environment that would support large gangs of slaves a la the plantation system.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 29, 2009, 09:30:39 AM
....
My own inexpert opinion is that the vikings did not haul that many slaves from Britain home to Scandinavia but rather sold those they had in the markets they created for that purpose in Dublin, Limerick and Cork. According to Gwyn Jones, who is an expert on the vikings, their favorite slave hunting ground was the Baltic coastal region. That makes sense to me because it was so close to home.
At any rate, Scandinavia did not have the sort of environment that would support large gangs of slaves a la the plantation system.
I agree with you, RMS2.  To make the large impact that L-21* has, it would take a long era of a significant slave system that doesn't seem to be supported by the economic and population characterictistics of Scandinavia.
As you cited in post #179 http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8266.msg113005#msg113005 (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8266.msg113005#msg113005) below, one possibility is the Bell Beaker expansion.  I don't know of anything else that fits.   Does anyone?  Did the LBK reach Scandinavia?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 29, 2009, 10:18:37 AM
Would the late LBK middle Rhine areas as shown http://www.comp-archaeology.org/LbkmapScreen.gif be indicative of existing trade routes the Romans would have built road along allowing trading to flourish greatly as compared to pre-roman trade economy including the Isles?

I have been looking for Roman Road Maps and found this at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treveri

As mentioned in the article, Treveri is a possible connection between Central France and the Central Rhine area since the territory of the Treveri had formed part of the Hunsrück-Eifel culture, covering the Hallstatt D and La Tène A-B periods (from 600 to 250 BCE). Notice the Roman Roads in green on the Map.

Another Roman Road map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Roman_Empire_125.svg




Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 29, 2009, 07:28:24 PM
Would the late LBK middle Rhine areas as shown http://www.comp-archaeology.org/LbkmapScreen.gif be indicative of existing trade routes the Romans would have built road along allowing trading to flourish greatly as compared to pre-roman trade economy including the Isles?

I have been looking for Roman Road Maps and found this at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treveri

As mentioned in the article, Treveri is a possible connection between Central France and the Central Rhine area since the territory of the Treveri had formed part of the Hunsrück-Eifel culture, covering the Hallstatt D and La Tène A-B periods (from 600 to 250 BCE). Notice the Roman Roads in green on the Map.

Another Roman Road map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Roman_Empire_125.svg



I'm sure it was only natural for the Romans to make use of topographical features that made it easier to get from one place to another and that had been used for that very same reason by earlier peoples.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on September 29, 2009, 11:56:48 PM
Then it makes sense that the L21's might have moved along the same routes and left linage along the way and thus places to look for testee's.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 30, 2009, 06:40:59 AM
Then it makes sense that the L21's might have moved along the same routes and left linage along the way and thus places to look for testee's.

You are underestimating the problems of getting ANY R1b1b2 French to test.  From what I understand the project has really pulled out all the stops to get what it has.  I think its proving all but impossible to get samples from the desired areas like Champagne, Lorraine, NE and central France which stand a chance of being L21. Even free tests do not seem to tempt many.  Basically France is so poorly sampled that every dot on the map is significant and the amount of L21 from the small amount of people tested for it is remarkable, even if it is from sample that is skewed to northern half of France.  Again that is simply due to the migration pattern of the French to north America and there is little way round this.  France itself has major restrictions regarding DNA testing.  Funding is also an issue.  Despite huge amount of L21 people, very few have donated anything to the R-L21 plus project recently.  Nearly all the R1b clade projects seems to be out of funds and L21 is no different.   While isles testing is self funding this is not true of a lot of Europe. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 30, 2009, 08:13:06 AM
You are underestimating the problems of getting ANY R1b1b2 French to test.  From what I understand the project has really pulled out all the stops to get what it has.  I think its proving all but impossible to get samples from the desired areas like Champagne, Lorraine, NE and central France which stand a chance of being L21. Even free tests do not seem to tempt many.  Basically France is so poorly sampled that every dot on the map is significant and the amount of L21 from the small amount of people tested for it is remarkable, even if it is from sample that is skewed to northern half of France.  Again that is simply due to the migration pattern of the French to north America and there is little way round this.  France itself has major restrictions regarding DNA testing.  Funding is also an issue.  Despite huge amount of L21 people, very few have donated anything to the R-L21 plus project recently.  Nearly all the R1b clade projects seems to be out of funds and L21 is no different.   While isles testing is self funding this is not true of a lot of Europe. 

That is true. A lot of money has gone into WTY (and that's fine), but very little is going into finding out about the SNP we already know exists and is solid, our "bird in the hand", L21 (as opposed to the one that may or may not be in the bush).


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 30, 2009, 02:44:32 PM
I think that France could have the most L-21 on continental Europe, in terms as a percentage of the male population anyway.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 30, 2009, 03:00:52 PM
I think that France could have the most L-21 on continental Europe, in terms as a percentage of the male population anyway.

You could be right, and I think it could rival the percentage in England, as well.

I think we are going to see a lot more German R-L21*, too.

None of these places are that well SNP tested, at least for L21.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on September 30, 2009, 04:12:41 PM
I know, that's what's so interesting. Germany and France aren't that well tested, but L-21 could be a substantial portion of the population.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 30, 2009, 06:06:27 PM
I know, that's what's so interesting. Germany and France aren't that well tested, but L-21 could be a substantial portion of the population.

I think there is no doubt that France will have the highest national count on the continent.  Germany is different.  You have to disinguish between the small formerly Celtic bit of Germany that actually lies west of the Rhine or south of the Main and the large Germanic part in the north.  Most L21 falls into the formerly-Celtic area of Germany so defined with a little even beyond in central Germany.  This seems simiar to the division suggested in the past between an S28 dominated south and S21 dominated north of Germany.  I compared the various project maps for the unusually well tested Rhineland and I think if I recall right that it looked like L21 was appoaching 40% of R1b in that state which puts it in broadly in line with France.  However, I think the overall national German stat would be a lot lower.  I think it is better to think of the old Rhine-Main line as the real potential genetic boundary (although not necessarily a sharp one) rather than the modern national borders.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 05, 2009, 07:10:29 PM
One of the French guys waiting in "L21 Pending" just got his L21+, so I'm updating the list. He's Dupuis (#7), and there's one caveat. There are several towns with the name La Chaussée in France, and La Chaussée is where Dupuis' ancestor came from. I put the placemark in the one in Poitou-Charentes, but it might be moved soon, since I emailed Dupuis for some clarification.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
7. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
8. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
10. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
11. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
12. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
13. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
14. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
15. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
16. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
17. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
18. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
19. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
20. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
21. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 05, 2009, 07:50:58 PM
One of the French guys waiting in "L21 Pending" just got his L21+, so I'm updating the list. He's Dupuis (#7), and there's one caveat. There are several towns with the name La Chaussée in France, and La Chaussée is where Dupuis' ancestor came from. I put the placemark in the one in Poitou-Charentes, but it might be moved soon, since I emailed Dupuis for some clarification.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
7. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
8. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
10. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
11. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
12. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
13. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
14. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
15. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
16. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
17. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
18. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
19. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
20. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
21. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


Okay, it has been confirmed. The La Chaussée in Poitou-Charentes is the right one. Dupuis is on the R-L21* European Continent Map.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 06, 2009, 08:37:35 PM
I just found a new R-L21* in the French Heritage Project: Lefeber, kit E4911.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults)

My guess is that he lives in France, since he has one of the European "E" kit numbers.

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Sometimes I get a pleasant surprise when I go through the Y-DNA Results pages of some of these projects!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on October 06, 2009, 08:41:41 PM
Better when you find someone home grown!

I just found a new R-L21* in the French Heritage Project: Lefeber, kit E4911.

My guess is that he lives in France, since he has one of the European "E" kit numbers.

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Sometimes I get a pleasant surprise when I go through the Y-DNA Results pages of some of these projects!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 07, 2009, 02:58:06 PM
Better when you find someone home grown!

We have a number of homegrown R-L21*s in the France category.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mark Jost on October 07, 2009, 03:56:20 PM
Maybe FtDNA would give a referral fee to the home grown guys to get there friends to test. lol


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 07, 2009, 07:57:53 PM
Maybe FtDNA would give a referral fee to the home grown guys to get there friends to test. lol

That's not a bad idea!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 08, 2009, 08:03:04 AM
I thought I would go ahead and add Lefeber to the list, even though he hasn't joined yet and I don't know where in France his ancestor came from. According to the World Names Profiler, the surname Lefeber is actually more common in Belgium than in France, but we'll see. I hope he joins soon!

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
7. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
8. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
10. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
11. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
12. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
13. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
14. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
15. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
16. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
17. Lefeber - France (exact location pending)
18. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
19. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
20. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
21. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
22. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 08, 2009, 03:25:11 PM
Lefeber has joined the project, but he is actually from Germany. He traces his most distant y-dna ancestor to Kolzig in old Niederschlesien (Lower Silesia), which is now the town of Kolsko, Poland.

I understand he has a family tradition of French origin (and the surname would support that tradition), but I had to put him in the Germany category based on the most distant ancestor location.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on October 08, 2009, 03:30:37 PM
Lefeber has joined the project, but he is actually from Germany. He traces his most distant y-dna ancestor to Kolzig in old Niederschlesien (Lower Silesia), which is now the town of Kolsko, Poland.

I understand he has a family tradition of French origin (and the surname would support that tradition), but I had to put him in the Germany category based on the most distant ancestor location.
As has previously often been mentioned, many Hugenots fled to German lands after their expulsion from France in the 17th century. French surnames were not uncommon in old Prussia. I wonder if he knows if his ancestors were Protestants?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 08, 2009, 06:47:11 PM
Lefeber has joined the project, but he is actually from Germany. He traces his most distant y-dna ancestor to Kolzig in old Niederschlesien (Lower Silesia), which is now the town of Kolsko, Poland.

I understand he has a family tradition of French origin (and the surname would support that tradition), but I had to put him in the Germany category based on the most distant ancestor location.
As has previously often been mentioned, many Hugenots fled to German lands after their expulsion from France in the 17th century. French surnames were not uncommon in old Prussia. I wonder if he knows if his ancestors were Protestants?

I was going to mention the Huguenot connection. I haven't asked Lefeber about it, but he belongs to the Huguenot DNA Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Huguenot/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Huguenot/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 08, 2009, 08:25:34 PM

As has previously often been mentioned, many Hugenots fled to German lands after their expulsion from France in the 17th century. French surnames were not uncommon in old Prussia. I wonder if he knows if his ancestors were Protestants?
[/quote]

Even Berlin had a huge French component in it in past centuries. 

It is a problem for mapping when surname and tradition point to somewhere else other than earliest known ancestral location by paper trail i.e. this example or Dr Krahn whose ancestors probably were ultimatley from Luxembourgh but has to be plotted in Hungary.  Perhaps those who are suspected to have ancestors elsewhere should be marked with a different colour or form.  I would include the Ashkenazi L21s in that too.  That would bring out on the map very well that surnames, ethnicity and/or religion indicate that the eastern European scatter of L21 identified so far is mainly clearly due to Medieval or later movements from western Europe.   



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 09, 2009, 08:11:14 AM
Even Berlin had a huge French component in it in past centuries. 

It is a problem for mapping when surname and tradition point to somewhere else other than earliest known ancestral location by paper trail i.e. this example or Dr Krahn whose ancestors probably were ultimatley from Luxembourgh but has to be plotted in Hungary.  Perhaps those who are suspected to have ancestors elsewhere should be marked with a different colour or form.  I would include the Ashkenazi L21s in that too.  That would bring out on the map very well that surnames, ethnicity and/or religion indicate that the eastern European scatter of L21 identified so far is mainly clearly due to Medieval or later movements from western Europe.   

The only thing I can really think to do is to add a note to the balloon that pops up when one clicks on the placemark. I don't really want to go to different colored placemarks; it gets distracting and confusing unless the map is supposed to show different subclades or haplogroups.

I've already done such notes with some of the map entries.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 12, 2009, 02:57:18 PM
Londry (Landry) just went L21+, so here's the updated list (which is getting maybe too big to keep posting with every new addition).

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
7. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
8. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
10. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
11. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
12. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
13. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
14. Landry - La Ventrouze, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
15. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
16. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
17. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
18. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
19. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
20. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
21. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
22. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
23. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


That makes four Normans so far.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 13, 2009, 01:25:44 PM
This guy popped up on another forum.  He probably should be classified under England but he is possibly tied back to the Gascony region of France.
I asked him to join the RL21Plus project.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello. I just received my L21+ result recently and would just like to introduce myself to the forum.
I live in Bedford, Virginia. My most distant ancestor, John Boggess (surname variations Boggis/Baugus/etc), was born in the mid 1500s in Suffolk or Essex, England.
According to Jay Hatlested (author of "Boggess: The Renaissance Years"), John Boggess descended from Thomas Bogays (?-1381+) and, before him, Arnald Bojes (mid/late 1100's), who lived in the Gascony region of France (Bordeaux).
Thanks for reading!

Cheers,
Colin Boggess
Blue Ridge, Virginia


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 13, 2009, 03:02:03 PM
This guy popped up on another forum.  He probably should be classified under England but he is possibly tied back to the Gascony region of France.
I asked him to join the RL21Plus project.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello. I just received my L21+ result recently and would just like to introduce myself to the forum.
I live in Bedford, Virginia. My most distant ancestor, John Boggess (surname variations Boggis/Baugus/etc), was born in the mid 1500s in Suffolk or Essex, England.
According to Jay Hatlested (author of "Boggess: The Renaissance Years"), John Boggess descended from Thomas Bogays (?-1381+) and, before him, Arnald Bojes (mid/late 1100's), who lived in the Gascony region of France (Bordeaux).
Thanks for reading!

Cheers,
Colin Boggess
Blue Ridge, Virginia

We have a guy by the surname Boggess in the England category of the project, but I haven't checked to see if it's the same guy.

I think it likely that many families in the British Isles came from France during the historical period, and I'm not talking just about the Norman Conquest either.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 16, 2009, 03:00:51 PM
Woo-hoo! Yet another new French R-L21*!

Lessard, kit N36294, on the Y-DNA Results page of the French Heritage Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults)

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project. I don't yet know where in France his y-dna ancestor came from.

We've done well in the Ls lately.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 16, 2009, 03:15:54 PM
I cant help feeling that as more people are known to be L21 in person's country of origin and it looks more and more like a 'local' ancient clade, the more people are likely to be enthused about both testing and joining the project.  Maybe there is a critical mass after which it starts to snowball as interest grows.  Perhaps France has reached that point now and suspicion it is an isles clade or that it makes your anscestor an early isles interloper or some Vikings slave is dispelling now and continental people are actually wanting an L21 identification rather than dreading it and avoiding the test.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 16, 2009, 07:11:46 PM
I cant help feeling that as more people are known to be L21 in person's country of origin and it looks more and more like a 'local' ancient clade, the more people are likely to be enthused about both testing and joining the project.  Maybe there is a critical mass after which it starts to snowball as interest grows.  Perhaps France has reached that point now and suspicion it is an isles clade or that it makes your anscestor an early isles interloper or some Vikings slave is dispelling now and continental people are actually wanting an L21 identification rather than dreading it and avoiding the test.

I think you are right, and I think it is getting to the point where L21 is looking like the Gallic SNP (with all due respect to the other clades and haplogroups present among those of French ancestry). That is bound to make it popular with men of French ancestry, which is good for our project.

Concerning Lessard, I haven't heard from him yet, but I did discover that there is a French town called Lessard (Lessard-le-National, Saône-et-Loire, Burgundy) in eastern France near Chalon sur Saône and not too far from the Swiss border:

http://tinyurl.com/ylpgfj7 (http://tinyurl.com/ylpgfj7)

At least one Lessard family web site names that town as the familial place of origin:

http://thelessards.com/history.html (http://thelessards.com/history.html)




Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 16, 2009, 07:38:15 PM
That town sounds close to the SE French/Swiss group.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 16, 2009, 08:09:56 PM
Lessard just joined the project. The Lessard family may have orignated in Lessard in Burgundy, but his most distant ancestor came from Chambois in Basse-Normandie, which makes him our fifth Norman.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 17, 2009, 09:56:42 AM
I was looking at the L21 and S116* projects to get a handle on the minimum number of L21 tests French Heritage vs Isles Heritage people have taken, also allowing for the recent batch of stand alone L21s.  Very roughly it looked like 10 times as many isles heritage folk have taken the test compared to French heritage folk.  That shows just how misleading it is to simply look at the maps in terms of numbers without considering percentages.  When comparing the French and isles maps one should mentally be multipling the number of dots by at least 10.  I actually would guess if the French total is based on a tenth of the Isles level of testing then France would roughly equal the isles total had the same amount of testing been done. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 17, 2009, 10:33:10 AM
I was looking at the L21 and S116* projects to get a handle on the minimum number of L21 tests French Heritage vs Isles Heritage people have taken, also allowing for the recent batch of stand alone L21s.  Very roughly it looked like 10 times as many isles heritage folk have taken the test compared to French heritage folk.  That shows just how misleading it is to simply look at the maps in terms of numbers without considering percentages.  When comparing the French and isles maps one should mentally be multipling the number of dots by at least 10.  I actually would guess if the French total is based on a tenth of the Isles level of testing then France would roughly equal the isles total had the same amount of testing been done.  

That's exactly right, and that is something I have been stressing for a long time in protest against the arguments of those who - within a week of the first batch of L21 results from FTDNA - were jumping to the conclusion that L21 originated in the British Isles.

I always suspected that L21 originated on the Continent, and I think that view is starting to prevail, but it has been a difficult slog to get there.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 17, 2009, 02:22:28 PM
I was looking at the L21 and S116* projects to get a handle on the minimum number of L21 tests French Heritage vs Isles Heritage people have taken, also allowing for the recent batch of stand alone L21s.  Very roughly it looked like 10 times as many isles heritage folk have taken the test compared to French heritage folk.  That shows just how misleading it is to simply look at the maps in terms of numbers without considering percentages.  When comparing the French and isles maps one should mentally be multipling the number of dots by at least 10.  I actually would guess if the French total is based on a tenth of the Isles level of testing then France would roughly equal the isles total had the same amount of testing been done.  
That's exactly right, and that is something I have been stressing for a long time in protest against the arguments of those who - within a week of the first batch of L21 results from FTDNA - were jumping to the conclusion that L21 originated in the British Isles. .....
Yes, I'm very aware of it but still, the visual imprint in my mind is a distraction.  I'm actually glad RMS broke up the map into separate Isles and "the rest" maps.  It makes it easier to clear your mind.

I think the R-U106 guys do a good job of normalizing the data into a population density format.  See this table:
http://www.geocities.com/thurlowons/R1b1c9/U106_pop_density.html

Does anyone understand their method?  Perhaps a modified version of this would be good for L21*?  I can easily total all of the counts by country and keep it updated.  I'm not sure what the best approach is to normalizing the data. 

If we can make it into a table, we can figure out how to graphically show it as well.

I like those "cline" maps also.  Is there an easy way to generate that suff?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 17, 2009, 03:33:55 PM
I think the most useful stats for each country/area would be L21 as a percentage of R1b1b2 and also L21 as a percentage of the total population. These would make very interesting stats or even maps

That would be nice but even working out prevallence or percentages in any trustworthy way requires us to be well into double figures for testing in each area.  In very low samples freak results are easily possible.  For example I just dont believe the Belgian void stuck between decent L21 representation in both northern France and southern Holland.  



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 17, 2009, 04:33:21 PM

. . .

I think the R-U106 guys do a good job of normalizing the data into a population density format.  See this table:
http://www.geocities.com/thurlowons/R1b1c9/U106_pop_density.html

Does anyone understand their method?  Perhaps a modified version of this would be good for L21*?  I can easily total all of the counts by country and keep it updated.  I'm not sure what the best approach is to normalizing the data . . .

The "U106 Count" and "Total Count" columns are easy enough to understand, and it appears they are simply dividing the U106 Count  by the Total Count and multiplying that by 1,000 to arrive at their "Population Density" figures. We could do the same thing, but it would involve a lot of going through the various projects and bean counting. Then we would need a place to post the final figures. I'm not sure how they arrived at the Confidence Interval figures.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 20, 2009, 02:13:05 PM
Updating the growing list to add Leprovost (#19) and Lessard (#20).

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
7. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
8. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
10. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
11. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
12. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
13. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
14. Landry - La Ventrouze, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
15. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
16. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
17. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
18. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
19. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
20. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
21. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
22. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
23. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
24. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
25. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


Leprovost joined the project a week or so ago but I did not hear from him about his results until today. He tested L21+ (rs11799226=G) with 23andMe.

Six out of the 25 are Normans.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 25, 2009, 09:11:29 AM
Updating the growing list to add Leprovost (#19) and Lessard (#20).

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
7. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
8. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
10. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
11. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
12. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
13. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
14. Landry - La Ventrouze, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
15. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
16. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
17. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
18. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
19. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
20. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
21. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
22. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
23. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
24. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
25. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


Leprovost joined the project a week or so ago but I did not hear from him about his results until today. He tested L21+ (rs11799226=G) with 23andMe.

Six out of the 25 are Normans.

You know L21 is getting to be common in France when the posting of a newly minted French R-L21* draws no responses and the yawns are almost audible! ;-)



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on October 25, 2009, 12:00:05 PM
Ha ha, I think we've come to expect a strong L21 showing in France!!!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 25, 2009, 08:49:44 PM
Ha ha, I think we've come to expect a strong L21 showing in France!!!

I think its just that its been so hard to get samples to test from the centre, north-east and other areas of France that more from the north that really just infill are not as exciting as ones that make an impact on the distribution map like say the Luxembourgh one recently.  Its still a source of frustration that the no. 1  L21 country on the continent is s real problem and chunks of the country which look blank on the L21 map are simply untested or almost so.  I am looking forward to the 3 Czechs though.  That is an area where I would be very surprised if L21 is not present in moderate numbers.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: jerome72 on October 26, 2009, 02:08:39 PM
Ha ha, I think we've come to expect a strong L21 showing in France!!!

I think its just that its been so hard to get samples to test from the centre, north-east and other areas of France that more from the north that really just infill are not as exciting as ones that make an impact on the distribution map like say the Luxembourgh one recently.  Its still a source of frustration that the no. 1  L21 country on the continent is s real problem and chunks of the country which look blank on the L21 map are simply untested or almost so.  I am looking forward to the 3 Czechs though.  That is an area where I would be very surprised if L21 is not present in moderate numbers.   
Hello everyone,
On this forum (and elsewhere), I often read that L21 is probably very common in Northern France.
Let me make a clarification on this issue ...
I think that's true for the north-west but not north-east!
A few weeks ago, I tried to retrieve on ysearch, different subgroups of
haplogroup R1b1b2 of the French tests.
I, then, divided France in 4. Here are the results:


L21 M167 U152 M153 U106 Total
Northwest9 (53%) 3 (18%)4 (24%)0  1 (6%) 17
Northeast 2 (11%)3 (16%)7 (37%)0  7 (37%) 19
Southwest 1 (10%) 4 (40%) 2 (20%) 1 (10%) 2 (20%) 10
Southeast 1 (25%) 0 4 (80%) 0 0 5
                 
We can criticize my statement:
1) the low number of samples (we can not conclude anything for the south-east for example)
2) I have taken into account that the main sub-clades of R1b1b2.
It is possible that P312* or M269 * are very present in France without anyone really knowing how much
3) Some test SNPs are analyzed for longer than others.


However, I think it gives a general idea of the situation.

The north-west of France appears overwhelmingly L21. Perhaps 50% of all men in this region.
On the other hand, the northeast is much less, divided mainly between U152 and U106.

Because we can not distinguish the haplotypes Islands Britaniques than European continent makes me think that:
the north-west of France and the Islands Britaniques had to be colonized almost simultaneously by a people overwhelmingly L21.

But it should be compared with the German results. For the map of Richard, L21 seems very present in the south-west Germany. But what percentage of L21 compared to other sub-haplogroup R1b1b2 in this area?
Perhaps it is the same as for the north-east of France?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on October 26, 2009, 03:37:55 PM
Jerome, I'm not sure your figures are up to date.  You show only 13 L21 in France, while RMS lists 25. Perhaps you could recompute your figures. I also note you omit P312* from your table.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 26, 2009, 04:46:01 PM
Welcome Jerome and thank you for your efforts.

The real numbers of L21 in France are probably much much higher than the databases suggest.  L21 has only been available for a short time compared to the other SNPs like U106 and U152.  I think the only safe test of L21 prevalence is percentage of positives in blind L21 testing of French R1b1b2.  That sort of exercise did take place recently.  Only Rich the L21 project administrator could give statistics split into regions for that blind testing.  A simple total of postivitives and negatives for each region (however you divide France up) would be a good indicator of the real percentage of L21 although unfortunatley the numbers tested in that exercise are probably very low for some areas.  French Americans/Canadians just seem to mainly be from the NW quarter of France and that effected the sampling.   My understanding is that even free test offers have not solved the problem of very few French heritage people with ancestral locations outside NW France taking the L21 test.  If few test in these areas of France then of course the the numbers are going to remain artificially low.  

The only other rough way to do get an idea of L21 percentage is to compare numbers of L21*against numbers of S116* in each area.  Both clades by definition require L21 testing to have taken place and the proportion of these gives some idea of how often L21 is positive when L21 is tested for.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 26, 2009, 05:05:51 PM
Jerome,

Another more simple way of putting it is how much L21 testing has taken place in NE France?   I think it’s a tiny number, probably about 4.  What percentage of this small number tested are positive for L21?  A total of 2 for NE France could be a very high percentage of the numbers tested for L21 there.  Again, only Rich could give you a total tested number for NE France.  I actually think it would be a good idea to keep a list of those French who are negative when tested for L21 with a note of even their general ancestral region or even just split into NW, NE, SW, SE.  Without that we are missing out on the opportunity of compiling percentage prevalence statistics.

I do not think it’s likely that NE France would be as low as you are suggesting.  So far it is true that L21 is mainly in ancient Gallia Celtica and not Gallia Belgica or Aquitania.   Admittedly L21 so far seems low in Belgium but its fairly well represented in southern Holland so the Belgium total may be an anomaly and not representative of Gallia Belgica.  However, I think the testing for L21 in NE is far too low so far to take the totals in the public databases seriously. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 27, 2009, 07:01:36 AM
Another thing about Jerome's list is where are the S116* and also the unresolved R1b1b2?  The size of the R1b1b2 unresolved total is quite important.  I am sure it dwarfs the U152 etc.  It is among the unresolved French R1b1b2 that the L21 is hidden.  So far about every 2nd French unresolved R1b1b2 person was coming up as L21 positive in L21 testing.  If L21 wasnt very much the majority clade this couldnt have happened. 

It is unfortunate but inevitable due to pattern of immigration to North America that the sample is baised towards the NW of France.  I understand that it was impossible to solve this.  This has left it openfor some to think that high L21 is a NW French phenomenon only.  However, I very much doubt this can be the case.  There is also a cluster near the French-Swiss border area and a lot of the SW German cluster is actually on the west side of the Rhine so although in Germany it geographically more naturally links with eastern France.

This all kind of highights the unfinished buisiness of L21 testing in France.  As long as a reasonable amount of testing remains impossible to obtain for large areas of France then the distibution map will be looked at without taking into account the degree of testing.  That is why total numbers tested for L21 (positive and negative) for each area should be kept and then the percentage of L21 positives out of those tested will be easy to caculate.  I know that wil reveal depresssingly low numbers tested in many areas but it will be a lot less misleading than comparing the numbers of L21, U152 etc in public databases.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on October 27, 2009, 09:26:06 AM
I think L21 will outrepresent U152 in France. It seems that north of the Alps, L21 is predominant, but U152 is more prevalent in Italy. Well, can I even say that?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on October 27, 2009, 12:28:16 PM
"Well, can I even say that?"

Here is Vincent Vizachero's post in December last year. 

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-12/1229435935

"Looking at members of the Italy DNA Project and 23andMe participants in Adriano's spreadsheet, I see 46 R-M269 folks whose top-level subclade is more-or-less fully resolvable according to the current ISOGG tree.

The basic breakdown is:

P312- U106- : 17
P312- U106+ : 5
P312+ U106- : 24

Among the 24 P312+ folks:

20 are U152+
1 is SRY2627+
2 are L21-
1 is untested for L21

So, in the end, at most 2 of the 46 Italians can be L21+ (and one of
those is SRY2627+). The numbers will probably always be small for
Italy, since P312+ U152- itself is fairly uncommon.

Vince"


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on October 27, 2009, 12:31:07 PM
Like Alan says, L21 looks like a northern Gallic branch, while U152 is southern and possibly also Italic/Raetian.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 27, 2009, 01:51:10 PM
Like Alan says, L21 looks like a northern Gallic branch, while U152 is southern and possibly also Italic/Raetian.
For SE/South France, what I'd call Old Aquitane, I'm not sure U152 is going to be very prevalent either.  I don't see a lot of that there either, just like L21.    I would expect R-P312* with possibly some of the R-M152 and R-SRY2627 mixed in along with a sprinkle of L21 and U152.

I think SW France and SE France may be critically different.  SW France may have more of a Iberian flavor since the Iberians supposedly were once a dominant force there.  Maybe SE France is a big M269 subclades melting pot, or if you think the Lower Rhone River is key, maybe it is a big M269 subclades secondary expansion/launchpoint.

Oppenheimer draws a line from about Marseille up through France and to Wales and calls the haplotype group that I fit into "Welsh Colonists of the Mesolith" - maybe the wrong timeframe, but maybe the right direction.

Whatever the case, the South of France is undertested.
 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on October 27, 2009, 01:54:48 PM
“Like Alan says, L21 looks like a northern Gallic branch, while U152 is southern and possibly also Italic/Raetian.”


Yeah, however, my research points to the origins of both haplogroups.


http://home.scarlet.be/mauk.haemers/collegium_religionis/cipab.htm


Cippus Abellanus

“It was unusual in Italy that such a sanctuary lay on the border between two towns. Such border sanctuaries were known however among the Celtic tribes of southern Gaul.”


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 27, 2009, 02:55:01 PM
Yep I have had the same discussion with Vince and he is rarely far wrong although Argiedude has put it another way suggesting that the sample is skewed to south Italy and north Italy may have a small but significant amount.  Time wil tell I suppose.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 27, 2009, 03:48:17 PM
As Alan pointed out, there have been very very few folks of NE French heritage who have been tested for L21. But I think L21+ must be there in pretty fair numbers because it looks like there is (or should be) a band of L21 running from SW and Middle Germany through Luxembourg (we already have one Luxembourger L21+), Belgium and the Netherlands and into Northern France.

We already have Mylott (Millot dit Champagne) in Champagne-Ardenne and Dubois (DuBosc) in Dieppe in Haute-Normandie as tantalizing hints at what may be there.

I could add Thierry (YSearch DPVGV) to the map, even though he has not joined the project or, as far as I know, been tested for L21. He belongs to that cluster that I have characterized elsewhere as Ashkenazi, but he is French and does not appear to be of Ashkenazi heritage himself. His placemark would go in Chateau-Thierry, which is in NE France. Thierry's cluster is solidly L21+. I have tried to get him to join and test, but he has never responded to any of my several emails.

Alan is right, though. Roughly speaking, one out of every two French R1b1b2 guys who tests for L21 is L21+; the odds may even be slightly more in favor of L21+ than that, especially in Northern France.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 27, 2009, 09:06:05 PM
I think a trick is being missed by not keeping a total of negatives from L21 testing.  If we could compare the negatives and positives on a region by region basis (or just French quadrants as Jerome used) then we can state the percentage L21 hit rate for French R1b1b2 tested for L21 on a regional basis. That is worth a lot more than simply getting dots on the maps IMO.   I do not even think its necessary to reveal names, ysearch nos or exact ancestral locations.  Just numbers of positives and negatives in L21 split into French regions or even quadrants would do.  If that reveals areas where testing is very poor or absent then that is better that people are aware of this rather than assuming absences are real.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 31, 2009, 09:17:57 AM
I think a trick is being missed by not keeping a total of negatives from L21 testing.  If we could compare the negatives and positives on a region by region basis (or just French quadrants as Jerome used) then we can state the percentage L21 hit rate for French R1b1b2 tested for L21 on a regional basis. That is worth a lot more than simply getting dots on the maps IMO.   I do not even think its necessary to reveal names, ysearch nos or exact ancestral locations.  Just numbers of positives and negatives in L21 split into French regions or even quadrants would do.  If that reveals areas where testing is very poor or absent then that is better that people are aware of this rather than assuming absences are real.   

That might be difficult. Do you mean recent negatives (i.e., from the testing we've done lately)? Or do you mean to include all L21- R1b1b2, including U106+, U152+, SRY2627+, etc.?

I could probably go back and track the recent negatives, and then include those in the R-P312 and Subclades Project who are L21-, but it would be a real job to try to collect French data on all the L21-  R1b1b2 subclades.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 31, 2009, 01:26:42 PM

That might be difficult. Do you mean recent negatives (i.e., from the testing we've done lately)? Or do you mean to include all L21- R1b1b2, including U106+, U152+, SRY2627+, etc.?

I could probably go back and track the recent negatives, and then include those in the R-P312 and Subclades Project who are L21-, but it would be a real job to try to collect French data on all the L21-  R1b1b2 subclades.
[/quote]

A list of the hegatives does allow us to see a region by region hit rate and also show what areas are undersampled.   I think both those stats will show that the hit rate per test is far higher than public databases suggest and that low L21 rates in some areas are often down to very low amount of L21 testing.  I suspect there are some French regions where no testing has taken place for L21 at all.  

I am also keen on comparing the number of deep clade tests done before and after L21 was available.  That could give us an idea of how much the L21 estimates need adjusted to take this disadvantage into account.  Maybe FTDNA have this information.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 01, 2009, 11:05:55 AM
I'll try to get some of those figures, but it might take me awhile. I will need some free time, and the amount of free time I will need probably won't come until the Thanksgiving holiday (end of November).

Even then my free time will depend on the amount of company the wife plans on having over for the big Thanksgiving dinner.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on November 01, 2009, 11:48:31 AM
Well, have a good Thanksgiving dinner. I’ll be at my brothers. He is frying a turkey this year.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 01, 2009, 12:11:47 PM
Well, have a good Thanksgiving dinner. I’ll be at my brothers. He is frying a turkey this year.

Thanks! same to you!

We did that deep-fry thing a few years ago at my parents' house. It worked well, and the  birds (we had two that year because so much of the family was there) came out really tasty and succulent.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on November 01, 2009, 07:37:58 PM
I'll try to get some of those figures, but it might take me awhile. I will need some free time, and the amount of free time I will need probably won't come until the Thanksgiving holiday (end of November).

Even then my free time will depend on the amount of company the wife plans on having over for the big Thanksgiving dinner.

I wouldnt go to to all that trouble.  I think if an indication of numbers of deep clade tests done before and after L21 was added can be requested from FTDNA, that may be enough to suggest a percentage that L21 should be adjusted by if an estimate of L21  is being made.  Can FTDNA simply be asked for that statistic? 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 06, 2009, 04:08:15 PM
We just picked up a new French R-L21*, this time from Northeast France, from Sedan in the Ardennes, to be specific. The surname is Doucet or Doucet Laverdure, YSearch KZYXF.

Sedan is not too far west of our man in Pratz, Luxembourg, Conrardy.

Slowly but surely we are seeing some links forming between our Rhenish Germans and our Northern French.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on November 06, 2009, 04:15:46 PM
Slowly but surely we are seeing some links forming between our Rhenish Germans and or Northern French.
Maybe they all caught the same boat out of Aberdeen.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 06, 2009, 04:21:32 PM
Slowly but surely we are seeing some links forming between our Rhenish Germans and or Northern French.
Maybe they all caught the same boat out of Aberdeen.

I'm sure that has been suggested! ;-)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 06, 2009, 08:42:21 PM
Adding Doucet (#6) to the list.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Doucet (Doucet Laverdure) - La Ferté-Gaucher, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France
7. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
8. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
10. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
11. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
12. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
13. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
14. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
15. Landry - La Ventrouze, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
16. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
17. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
18. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
19. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
20. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
21. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
22. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
23. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
24. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
25. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
26. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 11, 2009, 01:19:53 PM
Adding Doucet (#6) to the list.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Doucet (Doucet Laverdure) - La Ferté-Gaucher, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France
7. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
8. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
10. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
11. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
12. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
13. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
14. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
15. Landry - La Ventrouze, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
16. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
17. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
18. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
19. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
20. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
21. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
22. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
23. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
24. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
25. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
26. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


I had to edit Doucet's entry (#6 above) because there is new info on the birthplace of his ancestor. Apparently he lived in Sedan but was born east of Paris.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 15, 2009, 09:04:30 PM
Adding #26, St. Jacques, another Norman.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Doucet (Doucet Laverdure) - La Ferté-Gaucher, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France
7. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
8. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
10. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
11. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
12. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
13. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
14. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
15. Landry - La Ventrouze, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
16. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
17. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
18. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
19. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
20. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
21. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
22. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
23. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
24. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
25. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
26. St. Jorre dit Sergerie (St. Jacques) - Le Rocher, Manche, Basse-Normandie,
       France
27. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 16, 2009, 09:10:53 PM
Updating the list yet again to add Martin, #22:

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Doucet (Doucet Laverdure) - La Ferté-Gaucher, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France
7. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
8. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
10. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
11. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
12. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
13. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
14. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
15. Landry - La Ventrouze, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
16. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
17. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
18. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
19. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
20. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
21. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
22. Martin (Pelland) - Péaule, Morbihan, Bretagne, France
23. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
24. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
25. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
26. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
27. St. Jorre dit Sergerie (St. Jacques) - Le Rocher, Manche, Basse-Normandie,
       France
28. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on January 29, 2010, 09:07:54 PM
Interestingly, our last two additions to the R-L21 European Continent Map in France have German surnames: Schneider (no relation to our earlier Schneider in Germany) in Montbronn, Lorraine (Ysearch FWX3R), and Wendling (Ysearch ENFH4) in Kindwiller, Alsace. Of course, I realize Lorraine and Alsace were part of Germany at one time, and also that the histories of Eastern France and Western Germany are inextricably intertwined.

So, anyway, despite their German surnames, both Schneider and Wendling are in the France category on our Y-DNA Results page, just as Lefeber, although probably the descendant of a French Huguenot, is in the Germany category because his most distant ancestor was born in Niederschlesien.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on January 31, 2010, 07:01:51 PM
Here's an updated list. I probably won't be posting these for too much longer. They're growing too long, and, besides, I think everyone knows by now that L21 is pretty well represented in France.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Doucet (Doucet Laverdure) - La Ferté-Gaucher, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France
7. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
8. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
10. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
11. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
12. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
13. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
14. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
15. Landry - La Ventrouze, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
16. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
17. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
18. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
19. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
20. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
21. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
22. Martin (Pelland) - Péaule, Morbihan, Bretagne, France
23. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
24. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
25. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
26. Schneider - Montbronn, Moselle, Lorraine, France
27. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
28. St. Jorre dit Sergerie (St. Jacques) - Le Rocher, Manche, Basse-
Normandie, France
29. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
30. Wendling - Kindwiller, Bas-Rhin, Alsace, France


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on January 31, 2010, 07:10:21 PM
Here's an updated list. I probably won't be posting these for too much longer. They're growing too long, and, besides, I think everyone knows by now that L21 is pretty well represented in France.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Doucet (Doucet Laverdure) - La Ferté-Gaucher, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France
7. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
8. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
10. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
11. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
12. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
13. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
14. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
15. Landry - La Ventrouze, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
16. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
17. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
18. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
19. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
20. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
21. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
22. Martin (Pelland) - Péaule, Morbihan, Bretagne, France
23. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
24. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
25. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
26. Schneider - Montbronn, Moselle, Lorraine, France
27. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
28. St. Jorre dit Sergerie (St. Jacques) - Le Rocher, Manche, Basse-
Normandie, France
29. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
30. Wendling - Kindwiller, Bas-Rhin, Alsace, France


You know, I just noticed something. This list has doubled in length just since last August!

Hmmm . . .


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on February 02, 2010, 12:27:06 AM
It is time to move L21 headquarters to Paris.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 02, 2010, 07:42:22 PM
It is time to move L21 headquarters to Paris.

If it would help us recruit more continentals for testing, I'm all for it.

Of course, here in Virginia we call my town "Paris on the Rappahannock". ;-)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on February 03, 2010, 09:10:03 PM
Maybe this General in Napoleon's army was L159.2?
http://www.searcs-web.com/oconn2.html

(just teasing :)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 04, 2010, 06:57:17 AM
I think it is always important to remind people that the apparent biase in terms of L21+ results towards the NW quarter of France is largely a reflection of a baise towards the same area among all those who have taken the test.  It seems that a large amount of French Canadians/Americans migrated from that area of France.  For this reason and the relative lack of testing in much of the rest of France, I do not think a clear picture has been established.  There is a need for as much testing as possible in the other areas of France although I understand that it has been very very difficult to find people who will test in those areas.  However, I think the identification of France as the continental country with by far the most L21 was an important breakthrough in the last year. It seems that if a French R1b1b2 person tests for L21 then they have a very high chance of a positive L21 result.  So, it is well worth unresolved French ancestry R1b people taking the test.  It doesnt cost much and the chances of a positive result are high.  If only the French ancestry unresolved R1b1b2 people would take this  test in large numbers.  I actually find it hard to understand why a simple very inexpensive  test with a one in two or three chance of resolving one's y-DNA lineage is not being taken in large numbers.  It feels like there may be a simple lack of awareness or understanding of L21 among that group.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 04, 2010, 07:27:54 AM
We do have at least eight of our R-L21 Plus Project members with ancestry in the East of France, but it is true that apparently most French Canadians and Louisianans (many of whom came by way of Canada first) have ancestry from NW France. That tends to skew the results somewhat.

I also do not understand why more men of French descent don't order the Deep Clade-R test. Of course, French dna testing in general lags far behind British Isles testing, so there is a smaller pool of test subjects to begin with.

Of course, the economy lately hasn't inspired people to spend a lot of money on things they can live without.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 04, 2010, 11:07:26 AM
.... However, I think the identification of France as the continental country with by far the most L21 was an important breakthrough in the last year. It seems that if a French R1b1b2 person tests for L21 then they have a very high chance of a positive L21 result.  ....
Richard, you probably know the answer on this.  Are we sure Germany is not the country with the most L21+ people, rather than France?   What's the logic on France over Germany?  Is it the proportion of R1b1b2 to the general population in France is much higher than in Germany? or that R-U106 (as a part of R1b1b2) has a higher result rate as a percentage of R1b1b2 in Germany?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 04, 2010, 03:44:56 PM
.... However, I think the identification of France as the continental country with by far the most L21 was an important breakthrough in the last year. It seems that if a French R1b1b2 person tests for L21 then they have a very high chance of a positive L21 result.  ....
Richard, you probably know the answer on this.  Are we sure Germany is not the country with the most L21+ people, rather than France?   What's the logic on France over Germany?  Is it the proportion of R1b1b2 to the general population in France is much higher than in Germany? or that R-U106 (as a part of R1b1b2) has a higher result rate as a percentage of R1b1b2 in Germany?

We're just making educated guesses, of course, but our recent testing of French subjects seemed to be a pretty strong indicator that L21 is well represented in France, whereas in Germany I don't think blind testing like that would be quite so successful. It would turn up some L21+, of course, but my impresson of Germany is that other R1b1b2 clades are at least as numerous, and in the case of U106 more numerous probably.

Germany is also more thoroughly tested generally than France, although not nearly so much as the British Isles, obviously.

Of course, L21 could possibly be one of the most frequent R1b1b2 clades, if not the most frequent clade, in SW Germany, but probably not in Germany as a whole.

That's my take on things, anyway.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 04, 2010, 06:53:00 PM
My impression is:

1. There is more R1b1b2 overall in France than Germany

2. A much higher percentage of R1b1b2 are apparently S116 subclades in France than Germany (i.e. Germany has a lot more S21/U106 than France). 

3. The percentage of L21 among the S116 folk seems to be higher in France than Germany judging by the various project maps.

4. L21 in Germany seems to be heavily concentrated in the south and west (creeping into the centre).  That means that there is a lot in some areas but very little in others and overall the national total is surely much lower.

5. The higher level of deep clade testing in Germany makes it seem more likely that the apparent much higher prevallence in south Germany than the north is real.  I think it is likely that L21 has a good showing across a far higher percentage of France than Germany.  The areas of France which seem to have less L21 are in general just areas where less L21 testing has happened. 

Overall I would guess France would have substantially more L21 than Germany both as a percentage of R1b1b2 and as a percentage of the whole population.  A pure guess would be 20-25% of the French Populatoin and maybe 10-15% of Germans.  I think that L21 is likely to be the French modal and virtually certainly is in the north.  I think overall we should perhaps look at south and west Germany and France as a single  historical unit of ex-Gaulish lands with a high L21 count rather than divide by modern boundaries.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 05, 2010, 01:00:59 AM
... I think overall we should perhaps look at south and west Germany and France as a single  historical unit of ex-Gaulish lands with a high L21 count rather than divide by modern boundaries.
That makes a lot of sense, but I know that many people will have a hard time understanding why not all Germany was made up of ancient Germans.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 05, 2010, 08:11:42 AM
Its all about layers.  All nations consist of layers like a layer cake.  Its just that some layers tend to be identified with more - often the layer which provided the earliest attested national language.  However, it is not really a logical way of looking at it.  Surnames in many countries only tell us about the last 1000 or so years of our ancestry and languages change.  They tell us nothing about our prehistoric ancestors.  A place like south Germany,  the low countries and eastern France went from Celtic to Latin to German in a short time but there is no reason to believe that the bulk of the population changed each time.  The same DNA line can be Celtic then Latin then Germanic.  The problem is too many people want a simplistic single identity that you can say 'my ancestors were always this'.   People especially want to be able to claim one of the ethnic/cultural names of early peoples that were metioned in early historical records from the Roman period to the Viking era - labels like Celt, German, Viking, Pict etc.  Most of them were actually pretty vague terms that probably have no failsafe DNA identifier.  People are very attracted to claiming a label from that peirod.  However, the reality is peoples y-ancestors may have gone through phases of changing identity. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 05, 2010, 10:46:10 AM
What I am curious about now is the source of P312 and, ultimately, L21. If R1b1b2 entered Europe from Anatolia or someplace else in the Near East during the Neolithic, where did P312 arise? Did our y-dna ancestors hop, skip, and jump along the northern Mediterranean coast in boats, eventually coming up the French river valleys? Or did they establish farms in the Balkans and move generation by generation northwest, up the Danube Valley?

Should we regard the Cardial Culture as the likely source of P312? Or was it LBK?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 05, 2010, 04:31:15 PM
could be either, both or neither.  Certainly R1b2b2 covers both ex-Cardial and LBK areas so the picture is far from clearcut even if we were to accept an early rather than late Neolithic date (still unclear).  I agree that S116 is kind of a missing link.  L21 has a clear NW European distribution and S28 and Alpine one and other clades seen Iberia centred.  S21 seems to have a centre a little to the east and north of L21.  So they all have some geographical patterning.  So too do the h35 type upstream groups.  However, it seems that S116 lacks geographical definition.  I suppose the question is can S116* be taken to represent S116 in the brief period when it existed but none of the downstream subclades did.  If it does then its hard not to notice that the relative proportion of S116* among S116 clades is higher in Iberia and possibly southern France and Italy (not clear on this).  Italy has S116* as well as the H35 type clades which makes me wonder if S116 maybe first occurred there and then passed onto southern France and Iberia in a founder effect that left the H35 behind.  Then perhaps the S116* groups in southern France spread north with L21 occurring soon.  At the moment I favour the southern route but it doesnt easily explain the S116 in the north.  Another factor that may be favouring the southern route is that we simply have no idea of the R1b1b2 along much of the Danube.  If we had a clear idea of that then we woudl have a better idea if it was an option.     


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 05, 2010, 08:42:24 PM
There isn't a lot of P310- (HT35) in Iberia, though, is there? Or P310*?

What I'm getting at is the P312 in Iberia must have had antecedents who arrived there as already P312, given the absence of the P310- and P310* upstreamers, right?

So that leaves Italy, as you suggested, which is full of upstreamers, or the Balkans, which is also full of upstreamers and has some diverse R1b1b2 haplotypes . . .
unless P312 arose in either Italy or the Balkans (perhaps along the Adriatic) and went by boat to Iberia and thence into France, or to Iberia and also, at pretty much the same time, up the French river valleys. Then L21 could have arisen from among the P312 in France and spread from there.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 06, 2010, 05:57:00 PM
Imperfect though it is, I think the only way of guessing origin points of a clades/SNPs from distribution map is to look where the clade's distribution overlaps with the distribution of the parent/upstream clade to a significant degree.  So, following that logic:

1. L21 appeared where S116* and L21 overlap
 

2. S116 appeared where S116* and P310* overlap
 
This logic can obviously be extended further either up or downstream.  


For phylogenetic reasons I would elimate the isles first.  So, I think that would leave the likelihood that L21 happened somewhere in what was later 'Gaul', roughtly France, south/west Germany and adjacent areas.  My knowledge of P310* and further upstream is not great but I am guessing that Italy has an overlap between S116* and the upstream clades.   I have heard there are old clades in Italy but I do not know the details. Iberia does not have that overlap so its unlikely that S116 first happened there.  That all seems to point to Italy or further east as the origin point of S116.  Maybe someone else can elaborate on P310* and upstream clades in Italy. As for east of Italy, do we have any idea if there is much S116* there?  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 06, 2010, 06:21:22 PM
Another thing is that if the P310, S116, L21, U152, U106 really happened during a sudden expansion then it is possible that they were on a geographical as well as demographic wave of advance.  In my mind that should usually produce a pattern that the origin point of an SNP is at a point where the new SNP was a minority among a majority of the upstream clades.  The new clade would only become the majority as it moved into fresh areas and experienced advantageous founder effects.  So there could be a thin tail of it leading from an origin point towards area it spread to and prospered. 

However, there are so many potential variables on how a clade fared as it was expanding that it is hard to have any idea of the exact pattern to expect.  For example, it is possible that expansion could have been geographically blocked/halted/delayed at some point (at any distance near or far from the origin point) for a time, allowing a clade to build up in an area for a time. I get the impression from the rash of SNPs around the same time followed by a lack of more SNPs for a long long period (apparently thousands of years) after that the major expansions of R1b1b2 happened in a relatively (it could still be many many centuries) brief unique period that was never to be repeated.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 07, 2010, 12:18:30 AM
Another thing is that if the P310, S116, L21, U152, U106 really happened during a sudden expansion then it is possible that they were on a geographical as well as demographic wave of advance.  In my mind that should usually produce a pattern that the origin point of an SNP is at a point where the new SNP was a minority among a majority of the upstream clades.  The new clade would only become the majority as it moved into fresh areas and experienced advantageous founder effects.  So there could be a thin tail of it leading from an origin point towards area it spread to and prospered.   ...
That's an interesting description... a long thin tail leading from the origin point.  That's what I see in this R1b distribution map going right back to Eastern Turkey/Northwest Iran.
http://tiny.cc/fxXTj


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 07, 2010, 06:31:00 AM
The long thin tail idea only works if we are talking about a demographic explosion and simultanious rapid geographical movement - a wave of advance.  I think the explosion of SNPs for R1b1b2 and their spread from upstream clades in SE to L21 in the NW in a short time frame does seem to support this idea.  However, once we have reached the L21, U152 phylogenetic level the snp burst ends and doesnt resume again for thousands of years when we suddenly seem to have a number of SNPs in the early historic era.  Judging by the spread of SNPs the wave must have moved at least from SE Europe to France/SW Germany in the NW but no other early SNPs track its further movement into the isles.  That suggests to me that there was some sort of slow down before it reached the isles.  France could have been the place where the end-clades like L21 of the wave built up because the wave had no new land to go to (other than the isles).

As for the origin point of the string of SNPs heading SE to W/NW, I doubt we will have confidence of the origin point and routes until we hugely improve our knowledge of R1b1b2 clades in SE Europe, the Balkans and the countries along the Danube.  If we had that data then we probably would have a fairly good idea of the geography of the R1b1b2 movement even if the timing remained uncertain. That has to be a major priority in R1b1b2 studies.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on February 11, 2010, 07:56:50 PM
My own humble thoughts, and ideas about L21 are influenced by what others suggest.

Could belgium be considered fostering ground for L21?
Why I ask is.. it's closer proximity to the Isles, who have a lot of L21.
 And it's ability to spread southward to the Alps.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 11, 2010, 08:43:08 PM
My own humble thoughts, and ideas about L21 are influenced by what others suggest.

Could belgium be considered fostering ground for L21?
Why I ask is.. it's closer proximity to the Isles, who have a lot of L21.
 And it's ability to spread southward to the Alps.

Or is there more L21 around the Alps than in the Isles?

Thus far it looks like there is a band of L21 running from Bohemia through southern and middle Germany and all across France to the Atlantic coast.

Although we have a number of L21+ in the Netherlands and one in Luxembourg, thus far none has shown up in Belgium. I think some will sooner or later, and Belgium is an under tested country.

Dr. Klyosov found the greatest L21 haplotype variance in France and Germany, so I suspect the original homeland is there or perhaps somewhere near there.

Once we collect a few Belgian L21+ haplotypes we'll be able to say more about Belgium.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 13, 2010, 06:48:58 AM
That description of the distribution of L21 is exactly why I have been tempted to link L21 as a travellor in the final western leg of the Early Neolithic Linearbandkeramik (LBK) journey west through south Germany to the Loire and NW France.  Its something that struck me from a fairly early stage as the L21 tests came in. LBK-descended middle Neolithic cultures like Rosses etc may have also been important.

However, that only seems so clear-cut if L21 is looked at in isolation.  The LBK link sort of falls apart if we attempt to use it to explain R1b1b2 in general, including other S116 clades like S116* which are most common in non-LBK southern European areas like Iberia and Italy.  So, if R1b1b2 did spread in the early Neolithic to its present distribution then it must have taken both the LBK and Cardial routes. 

Alternatively it could have taken just one of the routes and only spread into other areas at a later date (perhaps the middle or late Neolithic).  However, if there had been a two phase spread like that then that should show up in the variance for R1b1b2 when calculated on a country by country basis.  Either the southern countries or the central European ones would have noticeably higher variance.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 14, 2010, 07:48:54 AM
As I posted on the other thread, I think increasing the 67 marker testing among L21 people of French ancestry is a priority.  It seems to me the sample is so small that calculations may be being skewed.  Every time the sample has slightly grown and variance has been recalculated, it has been deemed to be older than before.  

Another potential issue that may be affecting French variance calculations is that the sample is skewed towards the north (especially the NW quadrant).  That seems very likely to increase the possibility of people being more closely related and therefore reducing the variance.  It may be that there are areas of France where L21 is rarer but significantly different, perhaps older.  

It is almost certain that L21 did not occur in the NW of France or enter that part of France first.  Indeed, the area where most of our L21 is is likely the final part of the L21 journey in France.  I strongly suspect (using various Neolithic entry models) atr that it originated in or entered France at points well south or east of the NW quadrant of France.  I think the LBK, cardial and beaker models of L21 orign/arrival in France would all demand this.  A Cardial or beaker origin would probably point to a route from the south up the Rhone or the Aude-Garrone (or both) while an LBK origin would point to the Mosselle as the likely places for the oldest L21 in France.  

That means that the oldest L21 in France is probably hiding in the south or east of France where the numbers may be much lower but the age a little greater.   I think it imay be very common for the oldest examples of a clade to be located in an area where it first appeared and remained a minority among its parental upstream forms.  So, I suspect that L21 occured/entered France (and therefore the oldest L21 is to found in) an area where S116* is more common and overlaps with a much smaller L21 presence.  The exact point is impossible to identify but for L21 to be found in the Rhone, Seine, Loire systems and the Mosselle/SW Germany area, I do not think an Atlantic origin or entry point at one extreme of its distribution is likely.  My guess is that it must have originated or entered somewhere more intermediate that liks all these area.  That for me points towards the Rhone with its easy access to the Loire, Seine, Mosselle, Rhine etc or alternatively it arrived along the the Mosselle and spread from there into the other river systems.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 14, 2010, 01:09:11 PM
I agree. The big problem is that there are so few Frenchmen in the genetic genealogy database.

This morning I checked FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database again. Of those tested to at least 12 y-dna STR markers, there were 52,330 with ancestry in the British Isles and just 2,827 with ancestry in France. That means for every Frenchman there are about 19 British and Irish. Actually, French R-L21 is a bigger proportion of the French Ancestral Origins database than British Isles R-L21 is of the British Isles database.

Since FTDNA is a North American company, and dna testing seems to be largely, although not exclusively, a North American preoccupation, the database is further complicated by North American immigration patterns. That means most of our French pool of test subjects are Canadians and Louisianans. Many of the latter derive their French ancestry by way of Acadia in Canada anyway, so the Louisiana pattern is pretty much the Canadian pattern.

With such a relatively small pool of French test subjects, not all of them even R1b1b2, it is pretty amazing that we have gotten the results that we have. Our project cannot really afford to pay for upgrades to 67 markers; those are even more expensive than the full-blown Deep Clade-R test. We have to depend on the motivation of the individual members of French ancestry. We can encourage them to go out to 67 markers, but that's about it. (I cannot even get everyone to create a Ysearch entry, btw.)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 18, 2010, 09:01:08 PM
Another Norman just got his L21+ result: Labelle (Ysearch YR6AQ), whose ancestor came from Saint-Benoit in Basse-Normandie. I'm not sure yet which Saint-Benoit is meant; there are two in Basse-Normandie, one near Saint-James and another near Le Havre.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on February 18, 2010, 11:21:47 PM
Wasn't Normandy in Belgic territory? If it was, then I am sure some Belgian folks are L21.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: jerome72 on February 19, 2010, 01:50:28 AM
Another Norman just got his L21+ result: Labelle (Ysearch YR6AQ), whose ancestor came from Saint-Benoit in Basse-Normandie. I'm not sure yet which Saint-Benoit is meant; there are two in Basse-Normandie, one near Saint-James and another near Le Havre.

Richard
Here is a very useful site to find a place in France:
http://www.geoportail.fr/5069711/visu2D/afficher-en-2d.htm

Click on "mode avancé" (under "adresse complète")
write the name of the town or locality.
Select as "territoire" "MÉTROPOLE", (ie France and Corse).
If you are looking in a region or departement particular, you can select.
In the list of results by clicking on the name of the place, the place appears on the map.

This site also displays "les lieux trouvés", ie hamlets. They are not normally useful in your search.
See  "communes trouvées"

In Basse-Normandie, there is only one St. Benoît:
St Benoît d'Hebertot in the 14 (Calvados) (called St Benoît before 1801)

2 hamlets: in St James, and in Marigny

In Haute-Normandie, there is only one St Benoît:
St Benoît des Ombres in the 27 (Eure)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on February 19, 2010, 01:00:09 PM
There isn't a lot of P310- (HT35) in Iberia, though, is there? Or P310*?

What I'm getting at is the P312 in Iberia must have had antecedents who arrived there as already P312, given the absence of the P310- and P310* upstreamers, right?

So that leaves Italy, as you suggested, which is full of upstreamers, or the Balkans, which is also full of upstreamers and has some diverse R1b1b2 haplotypes . . .
unless P312 arose in either Italy or the Balkans (perhaps along the Adriatic) and went by boat to Iberia and thence into France, or to Iberia and also, at pretty much the same time, up the French river valleys. Then L21 could have arisen from among the P312 in France and spread from there.



Is that a similar path of the Phoenicians?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 19, 2010, 08:08:18 PM
Wasn't Normandy in Belgic territory? If it was, then I am sure some Belgian folks are L21.

No.  In the north the boundary of Belgic Gaul was the Seine.  So that means that three quarters of Normandy (all of Lower Normandy and half of upper Normandy) was in Celtica not Belgica.  Belgica seems to have consisted of Belgium, southern Holland and NE of France (half of Upper Normandy, half of Isle de France, the northern part of Champagne Ardenees, all of  Nord Pas de Calais and all of Picardy.  That may not be 100% but its pretty close.    


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 19, 2010, 09:21:54 PM
Another Norman just got his L21+ result: Labelle (Ysearch YR6AQ), whose ancestor came from Saint-Benoit in Basse-Normandie. I'm not sure yet which Saint-Benoit is meant; there are two in Basse-Normandie, one near Saint-James and another near Le Havre.

Richard
Here is a very useful site to find a place in France:
http://www.geoportail.fr/5069711/visu2D/afficher-en-2d.htm

Click on "mode avancé" (under "adresse complète")
write the name of the town or locality.
Select as "territoire" "MÉTROPOLE", (ie France and Corse).
If you are looking in a region or departement particular, you can select.
In the list of results by clicking on the name of the place, the place appears on the map.

This site also displays "les lieux trouvés", ie hamlets. They are not normally useful in your search.
See  "communes trouvées"

In Basse-Normandie, there is only one St. Benoît:
St Benoît d'Hebertot in the 14 (Calvados) (called St Benoît before 1801)

2 hamlets: in St James, and in Marigny

In Haute-Normandie, there is only one St Benoît:
St Benoît des Ombres in the 27 (Eure)

Thanks, Jerome! I will have to move Labelle's marker to St Benoît d'Hebertot from the hamlet near Saint-James, where I have him now.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 19, 2010, 09:25:54 PM
Okay, the last two days have been pretty good. Two more Frenchmen went L21+ this evening: Rideau (no Ysearch entry yet), who is a close 36/37 match for La Tour, and Hebert (Ysearch HRBBQ), whose ancestor came from Descartes, Indre-et-Loire, Centre.

Vive la France!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on February 19, 2010, 10:05:59 PM
All I think of when I see Hebert is that retired NHL goaltender, Guy Hebert. That guy was pretty good.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 20, 2010, 12:15:49 PM
All I think of when I see Hebert is that retired NHL goaltender, Guy Hebert. That guy was pretty good.

This Guy? (http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayerGallery.jsp?player=18285#photo)

I wonder if he would also test L21+.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on February 20, 2010, 12:30:12 PM
Yep, that's him! The good ol' Mighty Ducks... He's a Hall of Famer, man.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on March 01, 2010, 06:00:18 AM
Congradulations on the Men's Hockey Olympic Silver Medal.
We're celebrating Gold in Canada.

............................

More French L21+...good news.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on March 01, 2010, 12:35:28 PM
Yeah, that was a great game.

I wonder how many of those guys, both Canadian and American, are R1b1b2 and L21.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: bart otoole on March 01, 2010, 01:51:45 PM
Congradulations on the Men's Hockey Olympic Silver Medal.
We're celebrating Gold in Canada.


And I'm from Chicago - we're celebrating both the Gold and Silver.  3 of the Canadian team members and 1 US team member are all Chicago Blackhawk players.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 06, 2010, 12:15:00 PM
Off the subject of hockey - and I'm always glad when either Canada or the USA wins gold - I wanted to vent my frustration at one of the perennial downers of genetic genealogy: the long wait for results.

It's so frustrating! I know that it probably cannot be helped, but I recruit these folks for testing and then the clock starts ticking slower and slower, and the months pass. And that makes negative results, when they come, that much harder to bear. To wait so long only to get one of those dreaded minus signs! Aaarrrggghhh!

I look forward to the day when dna testing takes a week or two at most.

Right now this hobby is mostly about as exciting as watching paint dry.

And lately we haven't been getting the "walk-ins" we were getting. By "walk-ins" I mean those who order the Deep Clade-R on their own, without my having to persuade them, and who get an L21+ result. I get the impression Deep Clade-R orders are down.

If L21 were back on the Advanced Orders menu for $29, as it once was, I think things would improve.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 06, 2010, 01:26:26 PM
....
And lately we haven't been getting the "walk-ins" we were getting. By "walk-ins" I mean those who order the Deep Clade-R on their own, without my having to persuade them, and who get an L21+ result. I get the impression Deep Clade-R orders are down.

If L21 were back on the Advanced Orders menu for $29, as it once was, I think things would improve.
The deep clade testing product life cycle reminds of computing products.  I think this is part of the problem.  The Deep Clade R package is the cost-effective way to go, but it is always a step behind the latest deep-deep SNP discoveries.  Customers are torn between staying bleeding edge and buying the latest stuff or waiting for the cost-effective mature package product.... but once it is updated it is probably behind again.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 06, 2010, 01:41:14 PM
I just wish the turnaround time could be cut down considerably. I don't mind recruiting people for testing, but it would be nice to know within a couple of weeks if it's thumbs up or thumbs down on L21, instead of waiting two to four months for the results.

I also would like to see a sale on the Deep Clade-R, like maybe 50% off or better. Then I could really recruit some people for testing!

Couple something like that with a faster turnaround time and it would be just simply awesome!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 08, 2010, 12:06:50 AM
I just wish the turnaround time could be cut down considerably. I don't mind recruiting people for testing, but it would be nice to know within a couple of weeks if it's thumbs up or thumbs down on L21, instead of waiting two to four months for the results.....
Are these all cases where the sample has to be sent to the advanced lab?  If so, I understand.  If not, it seems like a long time compared to how fast we got many of the L21 downstream SNP's.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 09, 2010, 09:08:41 PM
I just wish the turnaround time could be cut down considerably. I don't mind recruiting people for testing, but it would be nice to know within a couple of weeks if it's thumbs up or thumbs down on L21, instead of waiting two to four months for the results.....
Are these all cases where the sample has to be sent to the advanced lab?  If so, I understand.  If not, it seems like a long time compared to how fast we got many of the L21 downstream SNP's.

Well, I suspect FTDNA's emphasis right now is on whatever "the latest thing" is. Maybe that's where the cash is. L21 tests and Deep Clade-R tests seem to be in the back of the lab queue.

Personally, I don't care that much about all the new SNPs, most of which appear to be private or very nearly private. We still don't know that much about L21, which has only been around just over a year now.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on March 10, 2010, 01:43:28 PM
I just wish the turnaround time could be cut down considerably. I don't mind recruiting people for testing, but it would be nice to know within a couple of weeks if it's thumbs up or thumbs down on L21, instead of waiting two to four months for the results.....
Are these all cases where the sample has to be sent to the advanced lab?  If so, I understand.  If not, it seems like a long time compared to how fast we got many of the L21 downstream SNP's.

Well, I suspect FTDNA's emphasis right now is on whatever "the latest thing" is. Maybe that's where the cash is. L21 tests and Deep Clade-R tests seem to be in the back of the lab queue.

Personally, I don't care that much about all the new SNPs, most of which appear to be private or very nearly private. We still don't know that much about L21, which has only been around just over a year now.

You know what I would like to know? Is that hole between Denmark and the Rhine an accurate representation of L21's distribution in the area? Or is it sampling error? What percentage of the overall Danish or North German population has been tested?

That's what I would like to see move forward, with respect to L21.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 10, 2010, 08:21:46 PM
You know what I would like to know? Is that hole between Denmark and the Rhine an accurate representation of L21's distribution in the area? Or is it sampling error? What percentage of the overall Danish or North German population has been tested?

That's what I would like to see move forward, with respect to L21.

I don't know, but there are already a few L21+ placemarks in that area. I suspect there is more L21+ there, but it is probably outnumbered by U106 and I1. I think it would be, for the most part, a money-losing proposition for our project to sponsor L21 testing of candidates from that region. Just my sense of things.

I am interested in Central France, between Orleans, Dijon, Limoges and Lyon, and in Belgium. I would like to be able to put a few placemarks in those two areas. The trouble is finding candidates from those places to test.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: argiedude on March 10, 2010, 09:27:19 PM
Phylogeography of French male lineages
Ramos-Luis, 2010
555 y-dna samples from several different regions, including Bretagne.

http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1875-1768/PIIS1875176809002340.pdf

Unfortunately, the study is very short and looks almost like an abstract. There's no data, nothing. But perhaps somebody could write to the authors and ask if they could provide us with the info?

paula.sanchez@usc.es (P. Sánchez-Diz) (corresponding author)
Study lead author is E. Ramos-Luis.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on March 10, 2010, 10:59:06 PM
You know what I would like to know? Is that hole between Denmark and the Rhine an accurate representation of L21's distribution in the area? Or is it sampling error? What percentage of the overall Danish or North German population has been tested?

That's what I would like to see move forward, with respect to L21.

I don't know, but there are already a few L21+ placemarks in that area. I suspect there is more L21+ there, but it is probably outnumbered by U106 and I1. I think it would be, for the most part, a money-losing proposition for our project to sponsor L21 testing of candidates from that region. Just my sense of things.

I am interested in Central France, between Orleans, Dijon, Limoges and Lyon, and in Belgium. I would like to be able to put a few placemarks in those two areas. The trouble is finding candidates from those places to test.

I realize Central France is more strategic at the moment. Sometimes we are just limited to what we have, I suppose. But I am sure there are a number of folks out there who are L21 in those areas discussed above!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 11, 2010, 05:49:57 AM
Interesting.  It confirms the long held belief that the majority group of French R1b1b2 is what is left once you remove U106, U152, the Iberian clades, M222 etc.  In other words the biggest French R1b1b2 group is composed of S116* and L21 in an unknown proportion.  If the project could get its hands on details of the people in latter group, that would be a wonderful supply of  candidates for L21 tesing with at least a high chance of being positive.  Put it this way, if something close to blind testing of R1b1b2 threw up a 50-50 L21 hit rate then the group which have had the U106, U152 etc already weeded out would represent a very high likely L21 hit rate.  Obviously anonymity would be an issue. If that could be arranged that would be a project well worth a few of us throwing the price of a couple of tests at.  

Another thing of interest that stands out is that in Alsace U152 is bigger than the likely combined L21/S116* group.  That is a pretty major finding.  That seems to show that there is a very strong eastern trend among rhe U152 group with it tending to be big along the eastern fringe of old Gaul from Switzerland/Italy to Alsace to Belgium.  That shows its prevallence cuts across the old Celtic/Belgic divisions of Gaul, suggesting that the main variation in prevallence of U152 is in the east-west dimension rather than the north-south one.  That hints it either pre-dates or post-dates (i.e. is a later overlay) the forming of these Gauish divisions and identities.  U152 seems to be strong in the eastern fringes of Gaul which later were Germanised.

One last thing of interest is that this is one of the first credible reporting of M222 in France  (around Paris and in the Pyrenees).  Given M222's young variance age I very much doubt tis tells us anyting about M222's origin.

Its such a shame they do not include the percentages or sample details in this report.  That seems strange.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 11, 2010, 06:26:59 AM
The more I read the report the more it stands out that if they had only added the L21 test then this would have given a complete systematic breakdown of a large French sample into the main R1b1b2 clades.  I would guess that about 100+ of the sample must be in the 'negative for U152, U106 etc' category that essentially likely is composed exclusively of L21* and S116*.  If the L21 project could get its hands on that list that would provide a ready picked out sample only needing the L21 test to spit them into L21* or S116*.  It would even be possible to just look at those from the parts of France that have had little L21 testing lke the south-west, centre, east, south and north-east.   That would be very exciting and I would throw in a little!  You would think it would be possible to get the data with no names and anonymously.  However, one problem is that one single town has been picked to respresent some areas an that would spoil progress on the distribution maps. Stil, it would be a very exciting prospect to have a scientifically picked sample that only requires an L21 test.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on March 11, 2010, 11:33:45 AM
The more I read the report the more it stands out that if they had only added the L21 test then this would have given a complete systematic breakdown of a large French sample into the main R1b1b2 clades.  I would guess that about 100+ of the sample must be in the 'negative for U152, U106 etc' category that essentially likely is composed exclusively of L21* and S116*.  If the L21 project could get its hands on that list that would provide a ready picked out sample only needing the L21 test to spit them into L21* or S116*.  It would even be possible to just look at those from the parts of France that have had little L21 testing lke the south-west, centre, east, south and north-east.   That would be very exciting and I would throw in a little!  You would think it would be possible to get the data with no names and anonymously.  However, one problem is that one single town has been picked to respresent some areas an that would spoil progress on the distribution maps. Stil, it would be a very exciting prospect to have a scientifically picked sample that only requires an L21 test.

If we get long haplotype data, I could check to see how many match with known L21+ people.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 11, 2010, 06:48:30 PM
Even if L21 and S116* are combined into one category, the study still clearly led to by far the best understanding of clade prevallence and geography that we have ever had for France.  It would be great even to get the regional clade percentages. It seems crazy that they were not included.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 11, 2010, 08:51:21 PM
. . .
One last thing of interest is that this is one of the first credible reporting of M222 in France  (around Paris and in the Pyrenees).  Given M222's young variance age I very much doubt tis tells us anyting about M222's origin.

  

Are you sure they meant M222 by that reference to "R1b1b2e"?

What I got was that "R1b1b2e" was found only in Midi-Pyrenees. It was N1c that was found in the vicinity of Paris:

". . . haplogroups N1c and R1b1b2e in Ile-de-France and Midi-Pyrenees region, respectively."

I'm wondering if by "R1b1b2e" they meant M153 rather than M222.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 11, 2010, 08:55:55 PM
. . .
One last thing of interest is that this is one of the first credible reporting of M222 in France  (around Paris and in the Pyrenees).  Given M222's young variance age I very much doubt tis tells us anyting about M222's origin.

  

Are you sure they meant M222 by that reference to "R1b1b2e"?

What I got was that "R1b1b2e" was found only in Midi-Pyrenees. It was N1c that was found in the vicinity of Paris:

". . . haplogroups N1c and R1b1b2e in Ile-de-France and Midi-Pyrenees region, respectively."

I'm wondering if by "R1b1b2e" they meant M153 rather than M222.

I guess they did mean M222, because the report says they went by the YCC Tree.

Weird.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 12, 2010, 09:35:36 AM
I think this is pretty exciting potentially getting a list of French from all over France which already has had all the main other clades defining tests negative except L21.  Given the already high L21 hit rate among  French R1b1b2 this probably would promise a very high return.  I imagine funds will be limited and contributions would not exactly pour in from hobbyists to fund the L21 testing.  So, I would personally think the best use  of limited funds would be to select a handful of the L21/S116* group from the area where the chances of getting L21 testing through hobbyists is least likely but where at the same time you strongly suspect there is L21.  I would ignore the NW quarter of the country (which is well served through hobbyist testing) and select from problem areas like the east, north-east and west. 
 
We know it is strong in the NW quarter and has a decent presence across other areas of the north but we are in the dark about whether there really is a strong north-south divide (or it is down to new world migration patterns?) and there is a hint of a possible east-west divide too given the high amount of other clades in the east of France.  It is particularly nice to have the other clades largely already weeded out for area like Alsace where L21 is almost certainly present but harder to find because of the high levels of U`152 etc.  I suspect Alsace would be like the Rhineland of Germany where L21 has a good showing but there is also a lot of U152, U106. S116* etc in similar quantities. 
 
I think if there were enough funds to select say at least 4 (better more) of the apparent S116/L21 group from each of the areas tested in the report (other than the NW) then that would virtually guarantee a hit if there is any L21 in those areas or if it doesn't then we will probably genuinely seeing a lack of L21.  That would help to define the edges of L21s main French distribution.  That would require about 20 or so tests to be funded. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 12, 2010, 12:00:01 PM
Regardless of whether they are intesested in L21 testing I would hope they could provide a copy of the clade breakdown for each region they selected. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 12, 2010, 04:24:52 PM
re: M222.  Toulouse is not far from the Garrone.  The Irish had a trade with Bordeaux from late Roman to Medieval times in wine. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 13, 2010, 10:34:52 AM
Blancett, Ysearch US8PN, joined the R-L21 Plus Project last night or this morning. He cannot get his paper trail out of North America, but he has a French surname and a 34/37 match in Ancestral Origins with a Frenchman. He's in the Colonial category on the project's Y-DNA Results page.

Blancett's most distant y-dna ancestor was born in 18th-century Virginia, where there was a large settlement of French Huguenots (at Manakin Town). One of my own ancestors, Dr. Paul Micou, was a part of that group (I had to throw that in).


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on March 13, 2010, 02:15:27 PM
Blancett, Ysearch US8PN, joined the R-L21 Plus Project last night or this morning. He cannot get his paper trail out of North America, but he has a French surname and a 34/37 match in Ancestral Origins with a Frenchman. He's in the Colonial category on the project's Y-DNA Results page.

Blancett's most distant y-dna ancestor was born in 18th-century Virginia, where there was a large settlement of French Huguenots (at Manakin Town). One of my own ancestors, Dr. Paul Micou, was a part of that group (I had to throw that in).

Speaking of Virginia, I wonder if my DeLoach ancestors came in contact with yours, Rich. Michel DeLoges was a Huguenot too.

I could see them both pontificating from the pulpit!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 13, 2010, 05:02:40 PM
Blancett, Ysearch US8PN, joined the R-L21 Plus Project last night or this morning. He cannot get his paper trail out of North America, but he has a French surname and a 34/37 match in Ancestral Origins with a Frenchman. He's in the Colonial category on the project's Y-DNA Results page.

Blancett's most distant y-dna ancestor was born in 18th-century Virginia, where there was a large settlement of French Huguenots (at Manakin Town). One of my own ancestors, Dr. Paul Micou, was a part of that group (I had to throw that in).

Speaking of Virginia, I wonder if my DeLoach ancestors came in contact with yours, Rich. Michel DeLoges was a Huguenot too.

I could see them both pontificating from the pulpit!

My ancestor Paul Micou was a physician, so perhaps he treated your ancestor and his family.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 13, 2010, 05:06:44 PM
Phylogeography of French male lineages
Ramos-Luis, 2010
555 y-dna samples from several different regions, including Bretagne.

http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1875-1768/PIIS1875176809002340.pdf

Unfortunately, the study is very short and looks almost like an abstract. There's no data, nothing. But perhaps somebody could write to the authors and ask if they could provide us with the info?

paula.sanchez@usc.es (P. Sánchez-Diz) (corresponding author)
Study lead author is E. Ramos-Luis.

Okay, I sent an email to Ms. Sanchez asking her and the other authors of that study to consider testing their French R1b1b2* samples for L21. I described the results of our recent French recruiting and testing and included links to the R-L21 Plus Project and my R-L21 European Continent Map.

Will I get a response?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen on March 13, 2010, 08:30:34 PM
"Will I get a response?"

I will have to bet no!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 13, 2010, 08:49:42 PM
"Will I get a response?"

I will have to bet no!

I'm hopeful, although the cynical part of me leans your way.

If Ms. Sanchez will just read my email and check out the links, and if she can read English well enough, then I think she might be interested.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 13, 2010, 09:09:16 PM
If you sold it to them as an SNP that could split in half the 'negative for all SNPs' clade that dominates all of France except Alsace then it would be surprising if it doesnt interest them at all.  This would be especially true if that group is a very large one.  Shame they didnt include regional clade percentages.  Even if they have no interest in L21, they should be asked for the percentages. 



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 13, 2010, 09:46:18 PM
Its also interesting to note that the L21/S116* group is in the majority in the extreme NE of France, part of Gallia Belgica.  Was there not a y-DNA study of Flemish Belgians that gave a different picture?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 13, 2010, 09:51:59 PM
Its also interesting to note that the L21/S116* group is in the majority in the extreme NE of France, part of Gallia Belgica.  Was there not a y-DNA study of Flemish Belgians that gave a different picture?

I think it showed U106 as the leading clade, but, as you said, it tested only Flemings in Brabant, I believe, not all Belgians, and there was no testing for L21 at all. Even there, however, P312* (with no doubt some L21+ wrapped up in that designation) was not insignificant. I think it was the second most frequent variety of y-dna there.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 14, 2010, 01:31:43 PM
Interesting that in the part of France that was in Belgic Gaul the S116+L21 group is the largest group  in the new study but in the Brabant study (which I think is Flemish Belgian at present) the last results I could find on the net were:

R1b-U106 (S21) : n=138
R1b-P312 (S116-this also includes L21) : n=92
R1b-U152 (S28) : n=43
R1b-SRY2627 : n=6

This is very different with the S21 group leading the S116+L21 group by a factor of c 50% and U152 well behind.  That suggests to me a likelihood that L21, S116* and U152 are similar in level but that S21 is three times as common as the rest of them.  That is very different from the NE of France where the S116/L21 group was the most common and (reading between the lines) U152 was likely second.  This suggests that the more thoroughly Germanised parts of old Belgica like Holland and Flemish Belgium have avery different R1b clade breakdown to the areas of Belgica where there was enough continuity to preserve the old Gallo-Roman population's romance language.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 14, 2010, 01:42:43 PM
Another thought: as with the recent French study, the Brabant study are in possession of a list of R1b1b2 people who are negative for everything except S116 and L21 which they have not been tested for.  That to me means there is a handy L21+S116* group that only need L21 tested to get full major clade resolution.  Testing that group for L21 would seem likely have something like three times the hit rate that blind testing of R1b1b2 in Belgium would have.  So, it strikes me that the Brabant project have a list that would be of great use to the L21 project. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on March 14, 2010, 03:45:40 PM
Interesting that in the part of France that was in Belgic Gaul the S116+L21 group is the largest group  in the new study but in the Brabant study (which I think is Flemish Belgian at present) the last results I could find on the net were:

R1b-U106 (S21) : n=138
R1b-P312 (S116-this also includes L21) : n=92
R1b-U152 (S28) : n=43
R1b-SRY2627 : n=6

This is very different with the S21 group leading the S116+L21 group by a factor of c 50% and U152 well behind.  That suggests to me a likelihood that L21, S116* and U152 are similar in level but that S21 is three times as common as the rest of them.  That is very different from the NE of France where the S116/L21 group was the most common and (reading between the lines) U152 was likely second.  This suggests that the more thoroughly Germanised parts of old Belgica like Holland and Flemish Belgium have avery different R1b clade breakdown to the areas of Belgica where there was enough continuity to preserve the old Gallo-Roman population's romance language.  
I don't think the way the numbers are listed provides a fair comparison. P312/S116 and U106/S21 are at the same level on the R1b tree. Yet U106 and all its subclades are compared against P312(XU152, SRY2627) with U152 and SRY2627 given separately.
If you listed U106(XL48) and L48 (a subclade of U106) separately and compared them to all P312 combined you would get quite a different result.
In other words, one has to compare all of U106 to all of P312 to get a valid comparison. Doing so shows that the two halves of ht 15 are essentially equal there.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on March 14, 2010, 06:32:40 PM
That's a good point, GoldenHind.

It is very easy to forget that U106 and P312 are parallel mutations.

My maternal grandfather is U106+, his MDKA from Palatinate, Germany, but he is L48-. I think that either of them could have been present in the Germanic parts of Belgica.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 14, 2010, 06:35:36 PM
I just copied and pasted the results.  As for having to have clades compared on what seem to be the same parallel phylogenic 'levels' in the tree, I do not really get that reasoning.  S116. U152 and L21 appear to have happened in extremely quick succession and not so different from U106.  So, regardless of the levels on the tree they have been around a similar length of time and it is best to treat them as equals and keep them seperate.  The tree is just a construct and new SNPs in future could further alter the relative levels of the currently known SNPs on the tree.

The main point that is not debateable anyway is a Belgian Flemish sample had 50% less R1b1b2* (L21* and S116* combined group) than U106 while the recent French study found the same group (basically L21* and S116* combined) was the largest.  That at the very least implies that two different areas that were both once part of Belgic Gaul have sigificantly different R1b1b2 clade percentages.  The difference is the relative proportions of the L21*/S116* group compared to the U106 group.  In this respect I suspect that the Belgian Flemish group are more like the Dutch than the NE French.   There is no proof as to what and when Gallia Belgica first became divided between a higher S116/L21 group in the west and a higher U106 group in the east but clearly the Germanic invasions have to be one suspect.  The difference does seem to have some correlaton to the which parts of Beligc Gaul were effected permanently and dominantly by the shift of Germanc langages westwards.  What is now needed is a Belgan Walloon smaple.  If the theory that the increase in U106 in Belgic Gaul correlates to border of the language shift to Germanic then the Walloon part of  Belgium should be more like France than the Flemish Belgian one (or perhaps a half way house).  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 18, 2010, 11:19:10 AM
Phylogeography of French male lineages
Ramos-Luis, 2010
555 y-dna samples from several different regions, including Bretagne.

http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1875-1768/PIIS1875176809002340.pdf

Unfortunately, the study is very short and looks almost like an abstract. There's no data, nothing. But perhaps somebody could write to the authors and ask if they could provide us with the info?

paula.sanchez@usc.es (P. Sánchez-Diz) (corresponding author)
Study lead author is E. Ramos-Luis.


I emailed them last week just requesting the percentages of each clade in each area but no reply yet. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 18, 2010, 12:41:38 PM
I haven't received a reply to my email either.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 18, 2010, 04:38:58 PM
I haven't received a reply to my email either.

Know anyone who can translate into Spanish?? I once learned some for a holiday in Spain (which by chance included Santiago de Compostella in Galicia where the paper was written).  However, I soon remembered that my Spanish was even then limited to a level based on ordering cervesas and tapas and would be a disaster if applied to expressing questions about DNA clades :0)   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 18, 2010, 04:42:34 PM
Here is what I would probably come across like if I tried to use my holiday Spanish in a scientific discusion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6D1YI-41ao


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 18, 2010, 08:20:36 PM
I interrupt that hilarious Monty Python video to make an announcement.

There's a a new French R-L21 this evening: Leblanc, Ysearch QXAZQ, whose ancestor came from Martaizé, Vienne, in Poitou-Charentes, not far from La Chaussée, where Dupuis' ancestor came from (kind of between Tours and Poitiers). Hebert's ancestor also came from that same neck of the woods.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 19, 2010, 07:46:03 PM
I haven't posted an updated list in awhile, so here's the latest one. I wish more Frenchmen would order the Deep Clade-R.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
6. Doucet (Doucet Laverdure) - La Ferté-Gaucher, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France
7. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
8. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
9. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
10. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
11. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
12. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
13. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
14. Hebert - Descartes, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
15. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
16. Labelle - Saint-Benoît-d'Hébertot, Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
17. Landry - Neuilly-sur-Eure, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
18. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
19. LeBlanc - Martaizé, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
20. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
21. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
22. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
23. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
24. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
25. Martin (Pelland) - Péaule, Morbihan, Bretagne, France
26. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
27. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
28. Rideau - France (exact location unknown)
29. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
30. Schneider - Montbronn, Moselle, Lorraine, France
31. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
32. St. Jorre dit Sergerie (St. Jacques) - Le Rocher, Manche, Basse-
Normandie, France
33. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
34. Wendling - Kindwiller, Bas-Rhin, Alsace, France


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 20, 2010, 12:22:55 PM
I have broken down our French L21 results thus far by geographic region.

Alsace
1
Wendling

Aquitaine
1
La Tour

Bretagne
5
Gery
Huet
Le Bras
Le Com
Martin (Pelland)

Centre
3
Hebert
Mireault
Rotrou

Champagne-Ardenne
1
Mylott

Franche-Comte
1
Bontron-Major

Île-de-France
2
Delahoussaye
Doucet

Lorraine
1
Schneider

Normandie
8 total -

Basse-Normandie:
7
DePort
Labelle
Landry
Leprovost
Lessard
St. Jorre-dit-Sergerie
Turpin

Haute-Normandie:
1
Dubois

Pays-de-la-Loire
3
Cartier
Hamon
Sicher (Secher)

Poitou-Charentes
3
Dupuis
Dussault
LeBlanc

Rhone-Alpes
1
Gignoux

France- Exact Location Unknown
4
Chartier
Grenier
Lefeber
Rideau (there is a town called Azay-le-Rideau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azay-le-Rideau) in Centre on the Indre River, but I don't know if the Rideau surname is connected to it at all)

Here is a map showing the regions of France pretty clearly:

http://www.placesinfrance.com/map_france.html (http://www.placesinfrance.com/map_france.html)

The following lists the regions in France which thus far have not produced any L21+ reports (I have given the map number from the map above in parentheses to make it easy to spot them on that map):

Auvergne (16)
Bourgogne (Burgundy) (12)
Corsica (22)
Languedoc-Roussillon (20)
Limousin (15) (La Tour's ancestor came from right on the Limousin border, however)
Midi-Pyrenees (19)
Nord-pas-de-Calais (1)
Picardie (2)
Provence-Alpes-Cote-d'Azur (21)

Here's what I think. The apparent concentration of L21 in northwestern France is partly real but also partly the product of North American immigration patterns. The fact that we already have L21 from pretty much all around the rim of France I think is indicative that it is widely distributed throughout that country. Right now we really need some test subjects from the areas above, especially (1), (2), (12), (15) and (16). Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that many Canadians or Louisianans have ancestors who came from those places.

If we have to wait around for more results from current French citizens we may all be pushing up daisies before much is learned.





Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 20, 2010, 01:19:13 PM
It is tantalising that the recenty-DNA study indicated that the modal clade for all of the samples taken to represent chunks of France (roughtly dividing it into NW, N, NE, E, SE, SW, S) is (with the exception of Alscace repreenting the eastern edge of France) represented by what that call R1b1b2* which is essentially R1b1b2 minus everything of signidicance except S116* and L21.  The question is in what proportion.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 20, 2010, 01:29:48 PM
It sure would be a blessing if those Spanish scientists from Santiago de Compostela would test those French "R1b1b2*" samples for L21 and publish the outcome.

We always seem to just miss everything.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 20, 2010, 01:54:21 PM
The only clue would be in the project maps.  While they favour certain areas they should not favour a particular clade within an area.

I think the sample in the NW quadrant is strong enough that the dominance of L21 must be real.  

However, I think the east demonstrates how a very poor sample can hide a trend.  Here, we know from recent studies that U152 is the modal clade (Alsace).  However, this is not apparent on the project maps which clearly show the area is very poorly tested.  

The general trend for all clades to draw a bit of a blank in certain areas of France does tend to suggest that nothing concrete can be said about much of France.  I think all that we can safely say is L21 dominates the north-west quarter and we know from the study that U152 is dominant in the eastern boder area.  Elsewhere I think we just do not know.  It would be interesting to see a table of R1b1b2 project clade percentages for each area.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 20, 2010, 07:29:27 PM
Look at the regions that were tested in that study (http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1875-1768/PIIS1875176809002340.pdf):

"Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille), Bretagne (Rennes), Alsace (Strasbourg), Île-de-France (Paris), Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand), Provence-Alpes-Cote d’Azur (Marseille) and Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse)."

In all of them except Strasbourg, R1b1b2* (untested for either P312 or L21) was the most frequent variety of R1b1b2.

That is pretty startling.

It could be that the proportion of L21 to P312* varies from region to region (it probably does), but, man, I sure would like to know!

I would also really like to know what the most frequent R1b1b2 subclade in France is. Is it L21?

I'm really curious about the results from Lille, Clermont-Ferrand, and Paris. I'm also curious about Marseille and Toulouse, but I don't expect as much L21 in those two places, although I could be pleasantly surprised.

Funny that they didn't collect samples in Poitou-Charentes, Pays-de-la-Loire, or Normandie, among others. We're especially strong in those places.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 20, 2010, 08:13:14 PM
You may have mentioned this before, Alan, but it looks like Bretagne may be overwhelmingly L21+. I say that because of this sentence from Phylogeography of French male lineages (http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1875-1768/PIIS1875176809002340.pdf):

"A founder effect, consequence of a demographic movement, and a subsequent process of isolation of Bretagne population across the time could have caused the low haplogroup diversity observed in that region, and then the population substructuring found in France." (p. 2)

That seems to say that what that report calls R1b1b2* must be by far the most frequent y haplogroup in Bretagne, and I suspect a very high proportion of that is L21+.

In the other regions of France tested there must have been greater y haplogroup diversity, but with R1b1b2* still in the lead in all of them except Strasbourg.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 21, 2010, 06:13:07 AM
If you compare the FTDNA project maps for the two clades their R1b1b2* group must fall into (L21* and S116*) then you get the impression that overall L21* is more common than S116* in France and that while there seem to be areas where L21* is dominant, I do not see any areas of France where S116*'s dominance is clearly demonstrated.  For that reason I still feel it is possible that the majority of this R1b1b2* group could be L21 and therefore L21 could be big across most of France.

I think too the border areas of the neighbouring countries provide indirect evidence that L21 has a good showing outside the core NW quadant.  The way the few L21's in Iberia are nearly all near the French western border is likely indirect evidence for a significant L21 presence in more southerly parts of Atlantic/western France.  Similarly, the Rhineland of Germany and Switzerland seems to strongly indicate that there is a reasonable amount L21 into the east of France.  The same goes for U152 which despite very few dots in eastern France on project maps has a good showing in those adjacent countries and we now have confirmation that it is actually the Alsace modal .  I think the latter is a clear demonstration that much of France remains far too undersampled to take absence on the project maps as significant. In a nutshell I feel that project maps provide significat positive evidence  (every dot is significant given the low amount of testing in most areas) but the sampling is rarely strong enough in a place like France to provide any negative evidence.  In other words in France the project maps can show presence but not absence of L21.   Overall,  feel the indirect evidence points to L21 being reasonably represented across France,  perhaps with the exception of the Mediteranean coast.

 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 21, 2010, 06:33:09 AM
Rich-I agree there is quite a bit of info in their short paper if you read between the lines.  What I read into that was that their R1b1b2* group is especially dominant in Brittany and their is little of the other clades.  However, the dominant R1b1b2* group also includes S116* and the STRs do not help split them.  We of course know that this exends across the wole NW quarter of France and not just Brittany.  It has long been known than U152, U106 etc are less known west of the present Germanic speaking areas and that the group they define as R1b1b2* dominates.  So, this is esentially finer geographical detail of what we already knew.  In a way, it looks like France has very smilar trends in terms of directions as the isles.  The problem remains the R1b1b2* composition. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 21, 2010, 09:01:49 AM
Alan, I agree with what you wrote in both of your last posts. I would love to see those Spanish scientists test their R1b1b2* samples for L21 (and P312), so we could get a better idea of the distribution of L21 in France. That would really help.

Here's something interesting. There is a Vigneau, kit 153350, in the French Heritage Project whose haplotype looks like that of the typical M222+ guy. But he has the green R1b1b2 of someone who had FTDNA's Deep Clade-R test before it included P312 and L21 but did include M222, meaning he is M222-. This piques my curiosity. If Vigneau has an M222+ looking haplotype and is L21+ but M222-, could he represent the pre-M222 group? Could that be a clue to the route pre-M222, and perhaps L21, took to Ireland? Did it come from France first?

Of course, we don't yet know if Vigneau is L21+. I'm trying to recruit him for testing.

I ran that name in the World Names Profiler. It is most frequent in Aquitaine, Midi-Pyrenees, and Corsica. It is also fairly frequent in Poitou-Charentes and Centre.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 21, 2010, 10:13:28 AM
I like the idea of pre-M222 etc where the STRs look like people who were on the lineage that led to M222 before the SNP.  There has been discussion about these before and one thing that I find significant is that these pre-M222 types (I am told) are not found in NW Ireland.  There seem to be a lot in SW Scotland, where there is also quite a bit of M222 itself.  IN past discussions people indcated that pre-M222 is rare in Ireland and what there is is based in Leinster. Suggests an Irish Sea/western seaways distribution.  I have no idea what the MRCA of all these pe-M222 types is but you would think it had to be older than M222.  The other thing of course is that M222 itself has apparenrly been found in that area of France in this new study but it is possible that we could be looking at a couple of strays.  Again, I hope they provde details.  The options for origin of M222 and pre-M222 depends on the dating.  M222 or at least the isles branch seems too young to be linked to continental movements.  However, I remain sceptical about this dating.  If it was even a little older then this would push it back into te Iron Age when it is easier to envisage more migration.  I cannot, however, think of any specific archaeological links between the SW of France and the isles but one minor point of interest is that one of the recenly found Irish big bodies 'Clonycavan man' had his hair spiked using a resin-gell that apparetly could have come from that general area.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 21, 2010, 05:44:51 PM
Unfortunately, Vigneau doesn't have a Ysearch entry, but I input the haplotype into Ysearch manually and ran it. Most of the matches were M222+, but, like I said, Vigneau must be M222- because he has the green R1b1b2 of the older Deep Clade-R test, which included testing for M222.

I might be considered a heretic, but I even have my doubts that M222 originated in the British Isles, although I am not dogmatic on the subject.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on March 21, 2010, 07:34:28 PM
I think that can only be the case if the MRCA dating is wrong and coming in too young.  However, my feeling is that variance MRCA dates are generally weirdly young anyway so I would rule nothing out. Ever since I was made aware of the pre-M222 concept I have felt the origin of M222 must be in an area where both pre-M222 and M222 is found.  In the isles SW Scotland seems (so I am told) the place where both are most strongly represented but I see no reason why they in turn could not be an offshot of a French group.  I think the small amount of SNP testing and the lack of 67 marker STR testing means a lot could be hiding in France at present.   Even large clusters could be comletely invisible.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 26, 2010, 03:21:20 PM
We have another new French R-L21 today: Bodine, Ysearch FAD7N. His ancestor came from Medis, just south of La Rochelle and just north of the Garonne River estuary, in Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes.

Bodine is a 33/37 match for Lariviere, Ysearch U2XBK, so I am trying to recruit Lariviere for L21 testing, as well.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 26, 2010, 07:18:52 PM
We have another new French R-L21 today: Bodine, Ysearch FAD7N. His ancestor came from Medis, just south of La Rochelle and just north of the Garonne River estuary, in Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes.

Bodine is a 33/37 match for Lariviere, Ysearch U2XBK, so I am trying to recruit Lariviere for L21 testing, as well.


Lariviere has also joined the project and will be tested for L21.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 31, 2010, 10:27:34 AM
You know, I was just looking back through some posts here and there, and I realized that, since last summer, we have more than tripled the number of French R-L21 we know about. We have added 15 new French R-L21 just since October!

Not too bad for a seriously under-tested region!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on March 31, 2010, 05:04:59 PM
Those Irish Monks sure did spread the Good Word.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 31, 2010, 06:24:19 PM
Those Irish Monks sure did spread the Good Word.

Groan!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 02, 2010, 06:40:18 PM
You know, I was just looking back through some posts here and there, and I realized that, since last summer, we have more than tripled the number of French R-L21 we know about. We have added 15 new French R-L21 just since October!

Not too bad for a seriously under-tested region!

Even Eupedia have it plotted on their R1b1b2 clade map in a way that is clearly derived from the project map.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on April 02, 2010, 07:06:40 PM
Those Irish Monks sure did spread the Good Word.

They had big feet, among other things.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2010, 08:48:07 PM
Those Irish monk jokes would be genuinely funny were there not people who actually still believe that is how L21 was spread.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on April 02, 2010, 08:50:32 PM
You know, I have not seen much of it come up lately... But that is not to say that some folks still think that way.

Happy Good Friday, Rich - no meat!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2010, 09:29:30 PM
You know, I have not seen much of it come up lately... But that is not to say that some folks still think that way.

Happy Good Friday, Rich - no meat!

Lent is almost over. Big feed after church this Sunday!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 02, 2010, 09:31:03 PM
You know, I was just looking back through some posts here and there, and I realized that, since last summer, we have more than tripled the number of French R-L21 we know about. We have added 15 new French R-L21 just since October!

Not too bad for a seriously under-tested region!

Even Eupedia have it plotted on their R1b1b2 clade map in a way that is clearly derived from the project map.    

I just took a look at that. That map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml) is much improved! Not too bad!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on April 03, 2010, 02:23:58 PM
You know, I was just looking back through some posts here and there, and I realized that, since last summer, we have more than tripled the number of French R-L21 we know about. We have added 15 new French R-L21 just since October!

Not too bad for a seriously under-tested region!

Even Eupedia have it plotted on their R1b1b2 clade map in a way that is clearly derived from the project map.    

I just took a look at that. That map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml) is much improved! Not too bad!
I just looked at it again myself. It has had a recent (apparently last month) major rewrite, and is clearly much improved. However the rewrite has left some contradictions, presumably with parts from earlier versions. Obviously we haven't yet heard the last word, but at least some progress is being made.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 03, 2010, 06:59:19 PM
Who is behind the Eupedia maps?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on April 03, 2010, 08:53:07 PM
Who is behind the Eupedia maps?
I have no idea, but I suspect more than one person has been involved in creating the page- hence the apparent contradictions.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 04, 2010, 01:50:30 PM
Who is behind the Eupedia maps?

The site owner is a guy who calls himself "Maciamo". He seems a decent sort and is amenable to constructive criticism.

I think he is U152+, but I don't know that for sure.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 05, 2010, 06:48:55 PM
so how many continental L21 tests are currently being waited on by the project and and where are their ancestral locations?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 05, 2010, 07:16:54 PM
so how many continental L21 tests are currently being waited on by the project and and where are their ancestral locations?

Nice question!

Here's the current list:

1. Lariviere - La Jarrie, France
2. Genest - Toulouse, France
3. Daigle (Daigre) - Aigre, France
4. Thibault - France (exact location unknown)
5. Laurendeau - Tercé, France
6. St. Aubin - Rouen, France
7. Zlatnik - Stepanice, Czech Republic
8. Gariépy - Montfort-en-Chalosse, France


I have invited quite a few others, but only one of them has responded to my email. I'm just waiting for that one to join the project.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on April 05, 2010, 08:38:35 PM
I like the idea of pre-M222 etc where the STRs look like people who were on the lineage that led to M222 before the SNP.  There has been discussion about these before and one thing that I find significant is that these pre-M222 types (I am told) are not found in NW Ireland.  There seem to be a lot in SW Scotland, where there is also quite a bit of M222 itself.  IN past discussions people indcated that pre-M222 is rare in Ireland and what there is is based in Leinster. Suggests an Irish Sea/western seaways distribution.  I have no idea what the MRCA of all these pe-M222 types is but you would think it had to be older than M222.  The other thing of course is that M222 itself has apparenrly been found in that area of France in this new study but it is possible that we could be looking at a couple of strays.  Again, I hope they provde details.  The options for origin of M222 and pre-M222 depends on the dating.  M222 or at least the isles branch seems too young to be linked to continental movements.  However, I remain sceptical about this dating.  If it was even a little older then this would push it back into te Iron Age when it is easier to envisage more migration.  I cannot, however, think of any specific archaeological links between the SW of France and the isles but one minor point of interest is that one of the recenly found Irish big bodies 'Clonycavan man' had his hair spiked using a resin-gell that apparetly could have come from that general area.  
You are talking about the  N/W Irish model
(Leinster is the S/E quarter of Ireland.)

I had wondered if M222 came to Ireland as Gallowglass and blended in over time before surnames. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallowglass

The first record of gallowglass service under the Irish was in 1259, when Prince Aodh Ó Conchobhair of Connacht received a dowry of 160 Scottish warriors from the daughter of the King of the Hebrides. They were organised into groups known as a "Corrughadh", which consisted of about 100 men. In return for military service, gallowglass contingents were given land and settled in Irish lordships, where they were entitled to receive supplies from the local population. By 1512, there were reported to be fifty-nine groups throughout the country


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on April 05, 2010, 08:54:44 PM
so how many continental L21 tests are currently being waited on by the project and and where are their ancestral locations?

Nice question!

Here's the current list:

1. Lariviere - La Jarrie, France
2. Genest - Toulouse, France
3. Daigle (Daigre) - Aigre, France
4. Thibault - France (exact location unknown)
5. Laurendeau - Tercé, France
6. St. Aubin - Rouen, France
7. Zlatnik - Stepanice, Czech Republic
8. Gariépy - Montfort-en-Chalosse, France


I have invited quite a few others, but only one of them has responded to my email. I'm just waiting for that one to join the project.
That is great. hopefully word will spread and others will test.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 06, 2010, 04:16:34 AM
I cannot see how the main soure of the spread of M222 into Ireland would e Galloglasses. The part of Scotland where M222 is strongest is actually south of the area the Galloglasses came from.  Also, studies have shown their is a strong correlation between M222 and the Ui Neill clans in Ireland.  I have never heard this also claimed for the classic galloglass names like Sweeny/McSween, McCabe etc.  I wonder if anyone has done a study of galloglass names. I would suspect that unlike the Ui Neill clans they would have a much more varied y-DNA, including R1a etc. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on April 06, 2010, 04:37:16 AM
That is an impressive list of pending L21 tests for France.  I was wondering, we know a little about what is largely Flemish Belgium from the Brabant studies (although as usual L21 is untested and hidden in a category with S116*) but are there many potential Walloon Belgian candidates for testing?  I suspect from an American migration point of view that the land-locked nature of the Walloon territory compared to the Flemish area may be a problem although clearly not as big a factor as in extremely landlocked areas of central Europe like Austria (the worst tested western European country?).
 
I just have a suspicion that while a major U106 intrusion and a significant U152 presence in Flemish Belgium may make L21 'costly' to find (maybe something like a 20% hit rate??), it may be very different in Walloon Belgium.  It would certainly be a very interesting test case in terms of the U106=Germanic theory.  Does U106 drop off fairly sharply at the Medieval Germanic-Celtic languistic barrier as it is claimed it does in the isles?  If it does then it would support that theory.   If U106 levels are maintained or only drop off slowly/modestly across the linguistic barrier in Belgium then the U106=Germanic theory would not be supported and the implication would be that U106 was present in pre-Germanic times in Belgum. Of course U106 existed far earlier but the question is was this earlier existence confined to east of the Rhine or not?   Of course another question is whether the current void in Walloon Belgium hides a load of L21?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 06, 2010, 07:28:26 AM
It's hard to find Belgians to test and even harder to find those who will respond when invited to test. We've tested a couple who came up L21-, but that's it.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: vineviz on April 06, 2010, 09:16:48 AM
 It would certainly be a very interesting test case in terms of the U106=Germanic theory.  Does U106 drop off fairly sharply at the Medieval Germanic-Celtic languistic barrier as it is claimed it does in the isles?  If it does then it would support that theory.   If U106 levels are maintained or only drop off slowly/modestly across the linguistic barrier in Belgium then the U106=Germanic theory would not be supported and the implication would be that U106 was present in pre-Germanic times in Belgum.

There's a new paper in BMC Evolutionary Biology that should serve, I think, as a warning against assuming that linguistic barriers and genetic barriers coincide. 

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/10/92/abstract

The haplogroup=language shorthand is bound to ultimately fail, IMHO.

VV


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on April 06, 2010, 05:04:41 PM
That is an impressive list of pending L21 tests for France.  I was wondering, we know a little about what is largely Flemish Belgium from the Brabant studies (although as usual L21 is untested and hidden in a category with S116*) but are there many potential Walloon Belgian candidates for testing?  I suspect from an American migration point of view that the land-locked nature of the Walloon territory compared to the Flemish area may be a problem although clearly not as big a factor as in extremely landlocked areas of central Europe like Austria (the worst tested western European country?).
 
I just have a suspicion that while a major U106 intrusion and a significant U152 presence in Flemish Belgium may make L21 'costly' to find (maybe something like a 20% hit rate??), it may be very different in Walloon Belgium.  It would certainly be a very interesting test case in terms of the U106=Germanic theory.  Does U106 drop off fairly sharply at the Medieval Germanic-Celtic languistic barrier as it is claimed it does in the isles?  If it does then it would support that theory.   If U106 levels are maintained or only drop off slowly/modestly across the linguistic barrier in Belgium then the U106=Germanic theory would not be supported and the implication would be that U106 was present in pre-Germanic times in Belgum. Of course U106 existed far earlier but the question is was this earlier existence confined to east of the Rhine or not?   Of course another question is whether the current void in Walloon Belgium hides a load of L21?
My recollection is that the Brabant Project proposed to start sampling Walonia next, but I have no idea of the time table involved.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on April 06, 2010, 05:15:53 PM
 It would certainly be a very interesting test case in terms of the U106=Germanic theory.  Does U106 drop off fairly sharply at the Medieval Germanic-Celtic languistic barrier as it is claimed it does in the isles?  If it does then it would support that theory.   If U106 levels are maintained or only drop off slowly/modestly across the linguistic barrier in Belgium then the U106=Germanic theory would not be supported and the implication would be that U106 was present in pre-Germanic times in Belgum.

There's a new paper in BMC Evolutionary Biology that should serve, I think, as a warning against assuming that linguistic barriers and genetic barriers coincide. 

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/10/92/abstract

The haplogroup=language shorthand is bound to ultimately fail, IMHO.

VV
Since not everyone who is member of this forum reads the DNA forum, I suggest you repeat here your recent post there about the P312/U106 divide, as I believe it is highly relevant to the P312/U106 Celtic/Germanic issue.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 06, 2010, 05:43:46 PM
....  I was wondering, we know a little about what is largely Flemish Belgium from the Brabant studies (although as usual L21 is untested and hidden in a category with S116*) but are there many potential Walloon Belgian candidates for testing? .....
I just have a suspicion that while a major U106 intrusion and a significant U152 presence in Flemish Belgium may make L21 'costly' to find (maybe something like a 20% hit rate??), it may be very different in Walloon Belgium.  It would certainly be a very interesting test case in terms of the U106=Germanic theory.  Does U106 drop off fairly sharply at the Medieval Germanic-Celtic languistic barrier as it is claimed it does in the isles? ....
I'm not sure about U106, but I tend to agree with Vineviz and Goldenhind that there may be surprises with L21 and P312* in terms of language/haplogroup alignment.

For instance, we are seeing L21 in Scandinavia.  They may have been some kind of pre/proto-Celtic immigrants but they apparently adopted the local languages and were Germanic speaking for a long time.

I am very curious about the Flemings in particular.  Flemings accompanied the Normans into the Isles and Flemish is supposed to be an Old Frankish language. There must be some Flemish across the Isles as the Normans went all the way through Wales and most of Ireland as well as Scotland.  

Who were the old Flemings?   A genealogist in one my projects think my family has a Flemish connection.  Don't know, but since my Irish g-grandfather (who's folklore is Cambro-Norman) married a Fleming maybe they had something in common. We do have two guys from Benelux in the project.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 06, 2010, 07:55:37 PM
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/10/92/abstract (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/10/92/abstract)

From thje paper mentioned by Vince above:

Quote
Conclusions
Previous studies have found significant correlations between genetic variation and language in Africa over large geographic distances, often across language families. However the broad sampling strategies of these datasets have limited their utility for understanding the relationship within language families. This is the first study to show that at very fine geographic/linguistic scales language differences can be maintained in the presence of substantial gene flow over an extended period of time and demonstrates the value of dense sampling strategies and having DNA of known and detailed provenance, a practice that is generally rare when investigating sub-Saharan African demographic processes using genetic data.

I don't see the study cited a couple of posts ago as invalidating the idea that there are correlations between ancient linguistic groups and y-dna. Notice the qualifier, ". . . at very fine geographic/linguistic scales". Is anyone claiming to be able to use y-dna testing "at very fine geographic/linguistic scales"? I think the best we can hope for are broad, generally true sorts of statements.

The quote above also mentions "the relationship within language families". I'm not sure just how narrowly that study defined "language families", but obviously the larger the set, the bigger the tent, so to speak. The Indo-European language family, for example, is a very big tent, and certainly encompasses a great deal of genetic diversity, but a much smaller subfamily might be much less diverse.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 07, 2010, 02:25:18 PM
... Here's the current list:

1. Lariviere - La Jarrie, France
2. Genest - Toulouse, France
3. Daigle (Daigre) - Aigre, France
4. Thibault - France (exact location unknown)
5. Laurendeau - Tercé, France
6. St. Aubin - Rouen, France
7. Zlatnik - Stepanice, Czech Republic
8. Gariépy - Montfort-en-Chalosse, France
....
In the Normandy project, I see that "Sinkler/St. Clair" is listed as Kit # 29753  Malger-le-Jeune, Compte de St Clair, b.c.1033, Corbu.  His Hg is green R1b1b2a1.   It appears his deep clade test is in progress.  Is L21 still pending or did that come out negative?

St. Clair is in what I call 11-13 Combo Group A-1.  He should be a prime L193  target testee.  His closest GD's (60/67 & 59/67) in my project are Clendenen/Glendinning people from Scottish Borders region.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 07, 2010, 02:30:08 PM
....  I was wondering, we know a little about what is largely Flemish Belgium from the Brabant studies (although as usual L21 is untested and hidden in a category with S116*) but are there many potential Walloon Belgian candidates for testing? .....
I just have a suspicion that while a major U106 intrusion and a significant U152 presence in Flemish Belgium may make L21 'costly' to find (maybe something like a 20% hit rate??), it may be very different in Walloon Belgium.  It would certainly be a very interesting test case in terms of the U106=Germanic theory.  Does U106 drop off fairly sharply at the Medieval Germanic-Celtic languistic barrier as it is claimed it does in the isles? ....
....
I am very curious about the Flemings in particular.  Flemings accompanied the Normans into the Isles and Flemish is supposed to be an Old Frankish language. There must be some Flemish across the Isles as the Normans went all the way through Wales and most of Ireland as well as Scotland.  
Who were the old Flemings?   A genealogist in one my projects think my family has a Flemish connection.  ....
I recant on the possible L21+ Flemish connection, at least as it relates to the 11-13 Combo people.  I went into the Flemish-Flanders project and looked at all the R1b1/R1b1b2.  Unfortunately, not as many 67 length haplotypes as I'd like, but of those that did all were modal on 406s1 and all were modal on 617.  Most to me looked like they'd not be L21+ but I that is just guessing.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 07, 2010, 02:59:39 PM

In the Normandy project, I see that "Sinkler/St. Clair" is listed as Kit # 29753  Malger-le-Jeune, Compte de St Clair, b.c.1033, Corbu.  His Hg is green R1b1b2a1.   It appears his deep clade test is in progress.  Is L21 still pending or did that come out negative?

St. Clair is in what I call 11-13 Combo Group A-1.  He should be a prime L193  target testee.  His closest GD's (60/67 & 59/67) in my project are Clendenen/Glendinning people from Scottish Borders region.

The test is still in progress with no L21 result yet.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on April 07, 2010, 03:38:14 PM
....  I was wondering, we know a little about what is largely Flemish Belgium from the Brabant studies (although as usual L21 is untested and hidden in a category with S116*) but are there many potential Walloon Belgian candidates for testing? .....
I just have a suspicion that while a major U106 intrusion and a significant U152 presence in Flemish Belgium may make L21 'costly' to find (maybe something like a 20% hit rate??), it may be very different in Walloon Belgium.  It would certainly be a very interesting test case in terms of the U106=Germanic theory.  Does U106 drop off fairly sharply at the Medieval Germanic-Celtic languistic barrier as it is claimed it does in the isles? ....
I'm not sure about U106, but I tend to agree with Vineviz and Goldenhind that there may be surprises with L21 and P312* in terms of language/haplogroup alignment.

For instance, we are seeing L21 in Scandinavia.  They may have been some kind of pre/proto-Celtic immigrants but they apparently adopted the local languages and were Germanic speaking for a long time.

I am very curious about the Flemings in particular.  Flemings accompanied the Normans into the Isles and Flemish is supposed to be an Old Frankish language. There must be some Flemish across the Isles as the Normans went all the way through Wales and most of Ireland as well as Scotland.  

Who were the old Flemings?   A genealogist in one my projects think my family has a Flemish connection.  Don't know, but since my Irish g-grandfather (who's folklore is Cambro-Norman) married a Fleming maybe they had something in common. We do have two guys from Benelux in the project.

The one Fleming in the Flemish-Flanders Project matches the L159 modal, as well as another Fleming with his MDKA from Ireland. Interestingly enough, they are not related (at least in Ireland)!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on April 07, 2010, 03:40:39 PM
Could the connection with Flanders just be from Bell Beaker times?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 08, 2010, 07:25:20 PM
I just found a new R-L21 in the French Heritage DNA Project: Levasseur, kit 166883.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults)

That's a brand new one we didn't sponsor, so he must have ordered a Deep Clade-R himself.

I couldn't find him in Ysearch, but I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 08, 2010, 07:50:12 PM
I just found a new R-L21 in the French Heritage DNA Project: Levasseur, kit 166883.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults)

That's a brand new one we didn't sponsor, so he must have ordered a Deep Clade-R himself.

I couldn't find him in Ysearch, but I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Levasseur's most distant y-dna ancestor is listed in the French Heritage Project as Laurent Levasseur, born 1647 in France. Here is an interesting web site I found on Laurent Levasseur and his descendants:

Levasseur Association of America (http://www.levasseur.org/en/Our_ancestors/Laurent_Levasseur)

Apparently the family is Norman, from "Bois-Guillaume near Rouen".


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on April 08, 2010, 11:48:59 PM
The Normans seem to be L21 heavy... at least those from the "Old Country"!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 09, 2010, 01:03:31 AM
The Normans seem to be L21 heavy... at least those from the "Old Country"!

I quote from another thread:
Quote from: Goldenhind

I have argued elsewhere that there were very likely fairly closely related cousins fighting on opposite sides at Hastings
As Goldenhind has educated me, the Normans were a mixed bunch so it is hard to tell who is who.

Also, given the probable movements of Gaulish peoples into Britain, probably multiple waves; and Britons (as Bretons) in into France......   it's kind of like one continuos recycling scenario with added ingredients mixed into the recipe from time to time.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2010, 07:24:33 AM
The Normans seem to be L21 heavy... at least those from the "Old Country"!

I quote from another thread:
Quote from: Goldenhind

I have argued elsewhere that there were very likely fairly closely related cousins fighting on opposite sides at Hastings
As Goldenhind has educated me, the Normans were a mixed bunch so it is hard to tell who is who.

Also, given the probable movements of Gaulish peoples into Britain, probably multiple waves; and Britons (as Bretons) in into France......   it's kind of like one continuos recycling scenario with added ingredients mixed into the recipe from time to time.


All that may be true, but it is also true that, thus far, L21 is turning up frequently in Normandy. But L21 appears to be common throughout Northern France, so I guess that's no big surprise.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 09, 2010, 08:33:36 PM
Levasseur joined the R-L21 Plus Project today, and he is indeed descended from the Laurent Levasseur born in Bois-Guillaume (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bois-Guillaume) in Haute-Normandie in 1647.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 12, 2010, 08:01:45 PM
Just found another new one this evening: Sebille, kit N81310, whom I found in the Bretagne DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bretagne/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bretagne/default.aspx?section=yresults)).

His ancestor came from Quemper-Guézennec, in the Côtes-d'Armor region of Bretagne (Brittany).

He doesn't have a Ysearch entry that I could find, but I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project via FTDNA.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 13, 2010, 07:05:31 PM
Make that two evenings in a row!

This evening I found another new R-L21 in the French Heritage DNA Project: Pontbriant, kit N82517, Ysearch 7GJ7S. He lists the birthplace of his most distant ancestor as Montreal, but the surname is definitely French.

This site (http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.c/qx/Pontbriant-coat-arms.htm?a=54323-224) says the surname comes from Languedoc in France. If so, that would be a first for us:

http://www.map-of-france.co.uk/map-of-languedoc-roussillon.htm (http://www.map-of-france.co.uk/map-of-languedoc-roussillon.htm)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 13, 2010, 07:53:52 PM
Make that two evenings in a row!

This evening I found another new R-L21 in the French Heritage DNA Project: Pontbriant, kit N82517, Ysearch 7GJ7S. He lists the birthplace of his most distant ancestor as Montreal, but the surname is definitely French.

This site (http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.c/qx/Pontbriant-coat-arms.htm?a=54323-224) says the surname comes from Languedoc in France. If so, that would be a first for us:

http://www.map-of-france.co.uk/map-of-languedoc-roussillon.htm (http://www.map-of-france.co.uk/map-of-languedoc-roussillon.htm)


When I ran Pontbriant as the name of a town or village in France, I got this location, which kind of backs up what that first web site said:

http://tinyurl.com/y8yw3oa (http://tinyurl.com/y8yw3oa)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on April 13, 2010, 08:14:20 PM
LOL its home sport is Rugby Union. Sounds like my kind of place!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 14, 2010, 08:25:23 PM
Sebille and Pontbriant have both joined the project and both are on the R-L21 European Continent Map.

Pontbriant's ancestor actually came from Issac in Dordogne, Aquitaine, not too awful far from where La Tour's ancestor came from (both still north of the Garonne, however). It looks like the Pontbriants were originally from Languedoc, though, where Pontbriant is a place name.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 14, 2010, 08:36:14 PM
Another update, to add Pontbriant (#30) and Sebille (#34).

1. Bodin(e) - Médis, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
2. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
3. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
4. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
5. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
6. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
7. Doucet (Doucet Laverdure) - La Ferté-Gaucher, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France
8. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
9. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
10. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
11. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
12. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
13. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
14. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
15. Hebert - Descartes, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
16. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
17. Labelle - Saint-Benoît-d'Hébertot, Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
18. Landry - Neuilly-sur-Eure, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
19. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
10. LeBlanc - Martaizé, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
21. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
22. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
23. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
24. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
25. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
26. Levasseur - Bois-Guillaume, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
27. Martin dit Pelland - Péaule, Morbihan, Bretagne, France
28. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
29. Mylott (Millot dit Champagne) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
30. Pontbriant - Issac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
31. Rideau - France (exact location unknown)
32. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
33. Schneider - Montbronn, Moselle, Lorraine, France
34. Sebille - Quemper-Guézennec, Côtes-dArmor, Bretagne, France
35. Sicher (Secher) - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
36. St. Jorre dit Sergerie (St. Jacques) - Le Rocher, Manche, Basse-
Normandie, France
37. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
38. Wendling - Kindwiller, Bas-Rhin, Alsace, France


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 21, 2010, 07:43:54 PM
Lariviere (#2 below) got his L21+ result last night. I have added him to the list and also updated it, using the ancestral name for the entry, with the modern surname in parentheses where needed.

1. Amirault (Mireault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
2. Baudon (Lariviere) - La Jarrie, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
3. Bodin (Bodine) - Médis, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
4. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
5. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
6. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
7. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
8. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
9. Doucet Laverdure (Doucet) - La Ferté-Gaucher, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France
10. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
11. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
12. Dusceau (Dussault) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
13. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
14. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
15. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
16. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
17. Hebert - Descartes, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
18. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
19. Labelle - Saint-Benoît-d'Hébertot, Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
20. Landry - Neuilly-sur-Eure, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
21. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
22. LeBlanc - Martaizé, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
23. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
24. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
25. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
26. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
27. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
28. Levasseur - Bois-Guillaume, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
29. Martin dit Pelland - Péaule, Morbihan, Bretagne, France
30. Millot dit Champagne (Mylott) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
31. Pontbriant - Issac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
32. Rideau - France (exact location unknown)
33. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
34. Schneider - Montbronn, Moselle, Lorraine, France
35. Sebille - Quemper-Guézennec, Côtes-dArmor, Bretagne, France
36. Sicher (Secher) - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
37. St. Jorre dit Sergerie (St. Jacques) - Le Rocher, Manche, Basse-
Normandie, France
38. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
39. Wendling - Kindwiller, Bas-Rhin, Alsace, France


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 26, 2010, 08:42:14 PM
A new R-L21* Frenchman (literally, in this case) appeared today and joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project: Tatard, kit E11062, Ysearch 9UCC9.

His ancestor was a Breton, born in Questembert in Morbihan, Bretagne.

He hasn't joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet, but I'm working on that.

By the way, he has NO close matches, so those who want to make all Bretons into transplanted Britons will strike out on this one, at least thus far. (I think that is true of all of our Bretons, incidentally.)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 30, 2010, 09:22:29 PM
Tatard (#38 below) joined the R-L21 Plus Project, so here's the list with him in it.

1. Amirault (Mireault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
2. Baudon (Lariviere) - La Jarrie, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
3. Bodin (Bodine) - Médis, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
4. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
5. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
6. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
7. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
8. DePort - Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
9. Doucet Laverdure (Doucet) - La Ferté-Gaucher, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France
10. Dubosc (Dubois) - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
11. Dupuis - La Chaussée, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
12. Dusceau (Dussault) - La Rochelle, Charente-Maritime, Poitou-Charentes, France
13. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
14. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
15. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
16. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
17. Hebert - Descartes, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
18. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
19. Labelle - Saint-Benoît-d'Hébertot, Calvados, Basse-Normandie, France
20. Landry - Neuilly-sur-Eure, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
21. La Tour - Peyrignac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
22. LeBlanc - Martaizé, Vienne, Poitou-Charentes, France
23. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
24. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
25. Lefeber - France (exact location unknown)
26. Leprovost - Lithaire, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
27. Lessard - Chambois, Orne, Basse-Normandie, France
28. Levasseur - Bois-Guillaume, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
29. Martin dit Pelland - Péaule, Morbihan, Bretagne, France
30. Millot dit Champagne (Mylott) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
31. Pontbriant - Issac, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France
32. Rideau - France (exact location unknown)
33. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
34. Schneider - Montbronn, Moselle, Lorraine, France
35. Sebille - Quemper-Guézennec, Côtes-dArmor, Bretagne, France
36. Sicher (Secher) - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
37. St. Jorre dit Sergerie (St. Jacques) - Le Rocher, Manche, Basse-
Normandie, France
38. Tatard - Questembert, Morbihan, Bretagne, France
39. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
40. Wendling - Kindwiller, Bas-Rhin, Alsace, France


Waiting for results from FTDNA drives me nuts. I may have to get a new hobby . . . like watching paint dry.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: MHammers on April 30, 2010, 11:31:28 PM
LOL its home sport is Rugby Union. Sounds like my kind of place!

Hi Neal,

Are you a rugger?  I wonder how many of the French National Team are L21?  I think there is more of a Cro-magnon component with most of those guys.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 01, 2010, 02:18:36 AM
A new R-L21* Frenchman (literally, in this case) appeared today and joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project: Tatard, kit E11062, Ysearch 9UCC9.

His ancestor was a Breton, born in Questembert in Morbihan, Bretagne.

He hasn't joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet, but I'm working on that.

By the way, he has NO close matches, so those who want to make all Bretons into transplanted Britons will strike out on this one, at least thus far. (I think that is true of all of our Bretons, incidentally.)

I recall hearing that the area of transplantation of he British Celtic language to NW France was considerably smaller than Brittany and that the eastern half of Brittany that remained Latinate.  I also recall that the old style physical anthropologists reckoned that only in a few coastal areas did the Bretons resemble the people of SW Britain.  My overall impression is that the Britons were likely a minority who settled only in considerable numbers in the west of Brittany and as a thinner elite elsewhere.  It is certainly clear that L21 is common across a much wider area of France than Brittany and that L21 must have been common there long before the British settlement in Brittany.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 01, 2010, 06:55:21 AM
I recall hearing that the area of transplantation of he British Celtic language to NW France was considerably smaller than Brittany and that there was a large part of Brittany that remained Latinate.  I also recall that the old style physical anthropologists reckoned that only in a few coastal areas did the Bretons resemble the people of SW Britain.  My overall impression is that the Britons were likely a minority who settled in a very limited area.  It is certainly clear that L21 is common across a much wider area of France than Brittany and that L21 must have been common there long before the British settlement in Brittany.   

I think that is absolutely right, but you know with what we have to contend.

Despite the fact that our R-L21 Bretons don't have any close British Isles matches, there is a certain group that will see them as proof that all L21 came out of the Isles, no matter what evidence exists to the contrary.

I could be mistaken, but I believe we have more Frenchmen than any other currently known subclade.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 01, 2010, 07:52:41 AM
. . .
I could be mistaken, but I believe we have more Frenchmen than any other currently known subclade.

I count 31 French U152 (and subclades) on David Faux's web site:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm (http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm)

And testing for U152 has been around 2-3 years longer than testing for L21.

I counted 13 French U106+ (and subclades) in the R-U106 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

That was tough to count, too, because that project has members of French origin divided up in at least three different categories.

Testing for U106 has also been available for 2-3 years longer than testing for L21 has.

Another clade for which testing has been available a lot longer than for L21 is R-SRY2627 (M167). I counted 13 R-SRY2627 of French origin in the SRY2627 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

There are currently 31 French R-P312* in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but P312* is a paragroup and likely to someday be split into further smaller, component subclades. Still, there are as many known R-P312* Frenchmen as there are known U152 (and subclades) Frenchmen.

We currently know of at least 41 R-L21 men of French ancestry, so, yes, as far as I can tell,  R-L21 is the leading R1b1b2 subclade in France.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 01, 2010, 09:08:19 AM
. . .
I could be mistaken, but I believe we have more Frenchmen than any other currently known subclade.

I count 31 French U152 (and subclades) on David Faux's web site:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm (http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm)

And testing for U152 has been around 2-3 years longer than testing for L21.

I counted 13 French U106+ (and subclades) in the R-U106 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

That was tough to count, too, because that project has members of French origin divided up in at least three different categories.

Testing for U106 has also been available for 2-3 years longer than testing for L21 has.

Another clade for which testing has been available a lot longer than for L21 is R-SRY2627 (M167). I counted 13 R-SRY2627 of French origin in the SRY2627 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

There are currently 31 French R-P312* in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but P312* is a paragroup and likely to someday be split into further smaller, component subclades. Still, there are as many known R-P312* Frenchmen as there are known U152 (and subclades) Frenchmen.

We currently know of at least 41 R-L21 men of French ancestry, so, yes, as far as I can tell,  R-L21 is the leading R1b1b2 subclade in France.


That makes R-L21 about 32% of the SNP-tested R1b1b2 in France overall. I think that is about right, but it may be a trifle high.

When all is said and done, I'm guessing R-L21 will be 25% of the R1b1b2 in all of France, with a higher figure in Northern France. U152 (including its subclades) may be very near that figure, as well, with greater strength in the southeast, near the Swiss and Italian borders.

I'm theorizing that R-SRY2627 will be strongest in the southwest, nearest the Spanish border, and R-U106 will have its highest frequency in the northeast.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 01, 2010, 10:32:42 AM
. . .
I could be mistaken, but I believe we have more Frenchmen than any other currently known subclade.

I count 31 French U152 (and subclades) on David Faux's web site:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm (http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm)

And testing for U152 has been around 2-3 years longer than testing for L21.

I counted 13 French U106+ (and subclades) in the R-U106 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

That was tough to count, too, because that project has members of French origin divided up in at least three different categories.

Testing for U106 has also been available for 2-3 years longer than testing for L21 has.

Another clade for which testing has been available a lot longer than for L21 is R-SRY2627 (M167). I counted 13 R-SRY2627 of French origin in the SRY2627 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

There are currently 31 French R-P312* in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but P312* is a paragroup and likely to someday be split into further smaller, component subclades. Still, there are as many known R-P312* Frenchmen as there are known U152 (and subclades) Frenchmen.

We currently know of at least 41 R-L21 men of French ancestry, so, yes, as far as I can tell,  R-L21 is the leading R1b1b2 subclade in France.



Those totals would make L21 about a third of French R1b.  However, with the several years headstart the other SNPs have I would say the real percentage has to be significant higher than a third.  The project blind testing seemed more like 50% to me although perhaps the lack of samples from the east where L21 must be lower and U152 higher according to the recent Santiago de Compostella University study may be a biase the other way.  My guess is that L21 is about 33-40% of French R1b1b2 and therefore about 20-25% of the entire French population.  That must be a higher percentage than in England.

I certainly agree with the recent post that suggest that France most contain the most L21 people of any country in Europe when you consider the percentage of R1b1b2, the proportion of L21 and the actual size of populations of each country.  I think someone suggested 40% of all L21 in Europe may be in France.  Its hard to comment on that but I have long thought that there is as much in France as there is in the British Isles, perhaps 10 million each???? The only other large countries where a good population of L21 seems to be clear are Germany but this is concentrated in the south and west and the overall national figure is probably low because of this. The other areas where L21 has been identified as having a significant presence-Switzerland, Norway, southern Holland, Czech Republic, the extreme NE of Spain all would have much smaller populations. Actually France having 40% of all L21 in Europe seems in the right ballpark to me.  I always had a hunch the motherload of L21 was in France and I suppose 40% of Europe's L21 could be described as that.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 01, 2010, 11:15:24 AM
An even more staggering stat than France having 40% of all European L21 would be what percentage of continental L21 France has.  My guess is that France has about two-thirds  of continental L21. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 01, 2010, 11:40:10 AM
And then what about the celtization of Italy, one million of slaves after the De bello gallico, the Barbarian Invasions? Pretty nothing. And we should riconsider the R-U152 in Central Europe: practically the expansion from the Italian refugium!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 01, 2010, 12:32:10 PM
And then what about the celtization of Italy, one million of slaves after the De bello gallico, the Barbarian Invasions? Pretty nothing. And we should riconsider the R-U152 in Central Europe: practically the expansion from the Italian refugium!

Gioiello -

L21 and U152 aren't really totally different animals. Both are subclades of P312; both could have arisen within the orbit that became Italo-Celtic. U152 could have had a center of gravity more toward the Italic side of things but certainly with a big slice of the southern and eastern range of Celtic. L21 could have arisen entirely within the Celtic side, well north of the Alps, with very little share in the Italic part.

One might even call L21 and U152 "brother clades".

In general, it sure is hard to tell them apart by haplotype.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 01, 2010, 12:35:16 PM
An even more staggering stat than France having 40% of all European L21 would be what percentage of continental L21 France has.  My guess is that France has about two-thirds  of continental L21. 

Alan -

You could be right. I was trying to be conservative. It is true that our pretty-much blind testing generally yields about a 50% or greater return.

The true French L21+ figure could be 30-40%. But even 25% is huge in a country the size of France with as much R1b1b2 as it apparently has.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Maliclavelli on May 01, 2010, 02:01:53 PM
Rich, if we don't think that not only R-L21 and R-U152 are "brother clades", but also the whole R1b1b2, we "Europeans" (and why not R1a?) won't have any future in this globalized world.
Really the whole Y is a brother clade, but you know my vicissitudes and know how everybody defends his own "clade".
I said this to answer to the nonsenses said in these last years about Italians, above all from Italians or mid-Italians who are like the "demi-vierge".


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 20, 2010, 01:51:50 PM
Perhaps we have the beginnings of a French cluster.  These two guys have a very close GD at 67 markers.

156432   Ozeme LaTour b.1869, Evageline Parish, Louisiana, USA (Peyrignac, Dordogne, France)   ZSEB7,

119179   Pierre Rideau, b.France   zz119179,

They have a pretty broad off-modal signature, mostly of medium speed markers:
YCAIIb=24 459a=8 448=18 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 460=10 464=14,15,16,17

I hesitate to bring this up, but as an aside, their closest GD's within R-L21* but outside their own little cluster fall into a well known cluster that Ken Nordtvedt found that I characterize with 67 markers (he does it with 37) and I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc.   In fact, though any relationship with this cluster would be distant, it is striking in the purity of this coincidence.  

Here is what I mean.  Rideau and La Tour are by far the closer related to each other than anyone else in the R-L21* spreadsheet.  The next closest are this other cluster.  There are 30  R-L21-1012-A-Sc folks that are 48-53 of 67 with Rideau and La Tour.  There is no other cluster/variety or unassigned R-L21* person of any kind that infringes on this GD range of people 48-53 of 67 with the Frenchmen.  All 30 are R-L21-1012-A-Sc.

Indulge me, as I love to speculate. Could all of this mean Rideau/La Tour was  an early off-shoot of a common ancestor with R-L21-1012-A-Sc?  Also the implication for R-L21-1012-A-Sc is that the mutations for YCAIIb=24 and  GataH4=12 happened before the 531*=12 mutation.


EDIT: DYS531 is the correct STR, not what I had previously.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: GoldenHind on May 20, 2010, 03:12:51 PM
Perhaps we have the beginnings of a French cluster.  These two guys have a very close GD at 67 markers.

156432   Ozeme LaTour b.1869, Evageline Parish, Louisiana, USA (Peyrignac, Dordogne, France)   ZSEB7,

119179   Pierre Rideau, b.France   zz119179,

They have a pretty broad off-modal signature, mostly of medium speed markers:
YCAIIb=24 459a=8 448=18 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 460=10 464=14,15,16,17

I hesitate to bring this up, but as an aside, their closest GD's within R-L21* but outside their own little cluster fall into a well known cluster that Ken Nordtvedt found that I characterize with 67 markers (he does it with 37) and I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc.   In fact, though any relationship with this cluster would be distant, it is striking in the purity of this coincidence.  

Here is what I mean.  Rideau and La Tour are by far the closer related to each other than anyone else in the R-L21* spreadsheet.  The next closest are this other cluster.  There are 30  R-L21-1012-A-Sc folks that are 48-53 of 67 with Rideau and La Tour.  There is no other cluster/variety or unassigned R-L21* person of any kind that infringes on this GD range of people 48-53 of 67 with the Frenchmen.  All 30 are R-L21-1012-A-Sc.

Indulge me, as I love to speculate. Could all of this mean Rideau/La Tour was  an early off-shoot of a common ancestor with R-L21-1012-A-Sc?  Also the implication for R-L21-1012-A-Sc is that the mutations for YCAIIb=24 and  GataH4=12 happened before the 534=12 mutation.

Which Nordtvedt cluster are you refering to? Is it the Irish type IV/Continental?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 20, 2010, 04:29:00 PM
Perhaps we have the beginnings of a French cluster.  These two guys have a very close GD at 67 markers.

156432   Ozeme LaTour b.1869, Evageline Parish, Louisiana, USA (Peyrignac, Dordogne, France)   ZSEB7,

119179   Pierre Rideau, b.France   zz119179,

They have a pretty broad off-modal signature, mostly of medium speed markers:
YCAIIb=24 459a=8 448=18 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 460=10 464=14,15,16,17

I hesitate to bring this up, but as an aside, their closest GD's within R-L21* but outside their own little cluster fall into a well known cluster that Ken Nordtvedt found that I characterize with 67 markers (he does it with 37) and I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc.   In fact, though any relationship with this cluster would be distant, it is striking in the purity of this coincidence.  

Here is what I mean.  Rideau and La Tour are by far the closer related to each other than anyone else in the R-L21* spreadsheet.  The next closest are this other cluster.  There are 30  R-L21-1012-A-Sc folks that are 48-53 of 67 with Rideau and La Tour.  There is no other cluster/variety or unassigned R-L21* person of any kind that infringes on this GD range of people 48-53 of 67 with the Frenchmen.  All 30 are R-L21-1012-A-Sc.

Indulge me, as I love to speculate. Could all of this mean Rideau/La Tour was  an early off-shoot of a common ancestor with R-L21-1012-A-Sc?  Also the implication for R-L21-1012-A-Sc is that the mutations for YCAIIb=24 and  GataH4=12 happened before the 531*=12 mutation.

*EDIT: DYS531 is correct.
Which Nordtvedt cluster are you refering to? Is it the Irish type IV/Continental?

No, it is another cluster.

The group I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc has this off-modal signature, from slow to faster speed:
531=12 YCAIIb=24 413a=22 GataH4=12 385b=15 389ii-i=17 391=10 444=11 449=30

Keep in mind that Ken looked at only 37 markers only and looked across all of R1b. Dennis Wright has a table of what I believe he archived of Ken's clusters.
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/KenNordtvedt.php

One line, R1b-Sc2, has these STR's highlighted:
385=11,15 389i=13 389ii=30 391=10 444=11 449=30 H4=12 etc.

These R1b-Sc2 values seem to overlap with the pure L21* folks labeled R-L21-1012-A-Sc.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on May 20, 2010, 05:09:46 PM
Perhaps we have the beginnings of a French cluster.  These two guys have a very close GD at 67 markers.

156432   Ozeme LaTour b.1869, Evageline Parish, Louisiana, USA (Peyrignac, Dordogne, France)   ZSEB7,

119179   Pierre Rideau, b.France   zz119179,

They have a pretty broad off-modal signature, mostly of medium speed markers:
YCAIIb=24 459a=8 448=18 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 460=10 464=14,15,16,17

I hesitate to bring this up, but as an aside, their closest GD's within R-L21* but outside their own little cluster fall into a well known cluster that Ken Nordtvedt found that I characterize with 67 markers (he does it with 37) and I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc.   In fact, though any relationship with this cluster would be distant, it is striking in the purity of this coincidence.  

Here is what I mean.  Rideau and La Tour are by far the closer related to each other than anyone else in the R-L21* spreadsheet.  The next closest are this other cluster.  There are 30  R-L21-1012-A-Sc folks that are 48-53 of 67 with Rideau and La Tour.  There is no other cluster/variety or unassigned R-L21* person of any kind that infringes on this GD range of people 48-53 of 67 with the Frenchmen.  All 30 are R-L21-1012-A-Sc.

Indulge me, as I love to speculate. Could all of this mean Rideau/La Tour was  an early off-shoot of a common ancestor with R-L21-1012-A-Sc?  Also the implication for R-L21-1012-A-Sc is that the mutations for YCAIIb=24 and  GataH4=12 happened before the 531*=12 mutation.


EDIT: DYS531 is the correct STR, not what I had previously.

Sorry but i am not too good at remembering all the different cluster names.  What is 1012-A-Sc? 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on May 20, 2010, 05:26:29 PM
Perhaps we have the beginnings of a French cluster.  These two guys have a very close GD at 67 markers.

156432   Ozeme LaTour b.1869, Evageline Parish, Louisiana, USA (Peyrignac, Dordogne, France)   ZSEB7,

119179   Pierre Rideau, b.France   zz119179,

They have a pretty broad off-modal signature, mostly of medium speed markers:
YCAIIb=24 459a=8 448=18 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 460=10 464=14,15,16,17

I hesitate to bring this up, but as an aside, their closest GD's within R-L21* but outside their own little cluster fall into a well known cluster that Ken Nordtvedt found that I characterize with 67 markers (he does it with 37) and I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc.   In fact, though any relationship with this cluster would be distant, it is striking in the purity of this coincidence.  

Here is what I mean.  Rideau and La Tour are by far the closer related to each other than anyone else in the R-L21* spreadsheet.  The next closest are this other cluster.  There are 30  R-L21-1012-A-Sc folks that are 48-53 of 67 with Rideau and La Tour.  There is no other cluster/variety or unassigned R-L21* person of any kind that infringes on this GD range of people 48-53 of 67 with the Frenchmen.  All 30 are R-L21-1012-A-Sc.

Indulge me, as I love to speculate. Could all of this mean Rideau/La Tour was  an early off-shoot of a common ancestor with R-L21-1012-A-Sc?  Also the implication for R-L21-1012-A-Sc is that the mutations for YCAIIb=24 and  GataH4=12 happened before the 531*=12 mutation.


EDIT: DYS531 is the correct STR, not what I had previously.

Sorry but i am not too good at remembering all the different cluster names.  What is 1012-A-Sc?
It overlaps with Ken N's R1b-Sc and Sc2 in particular.  It often referred to as the Scots Modal. 

Sorry, RMS2, this is what people know.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 20, 2010, 09:20:27 PM
There is a story behind the Rideau/ La Tour match that is in the process of being confirmed right now. I am not really at liberty to discuss it in detail, but their ancestry only goes as far as Louisiana. I put the two of them into contact with one another by recruiting them both, and that has worked out marvelously well for both of them in terms of solving a genealogical puzzle.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 14, 2010, 10:11:01 PM
We got our first Gascon R-L21 (and I did not recruit this one - he just showed up on his own): Gontaut, Ysearch HZJRZ, from Biron in Lot-et-Garonne, Aquitaine, France.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 15, 2010, 06:58:01 PM
A new R-L21 popped up on the Y-DNA Results page of the French Heritage Project today: Ballard, kit 47514, Ysearch KQ276.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults)

The most distant ancestor, as you can see from the French Heritage Project entry, came from Meurthe-et-Moselle, which is the region of Lorraine in which the city of Nancy is located.

The Ysearch entry lists a North American most distant ancestor, but Ballard is a French surname, so apparently some genealogical progress has been made since the Ysearch entry was created.

Ballard is not one of our recruits, so I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project. Hopefully, he will join soon.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on July 15, 2010, 11:20:13 PM
That's close to Switzerland, I believe.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on July 15, 2010, 11:20:59 PM
LOL its home sport is Rugby Union. Sounds like my kind of place!

Hi Neal,

Are you a rugger?  I wonder how many of the French National Team are L21?  I think there is more of a Cro-magnon component with most of those guys.

I love rugby union, especially Six Nations. Didn't France win the 2010 tournament?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: MHammers on July 16, 2010, 12:01:19 AM
LOL its home sport is Rugby Union. Sounds like my kind of place!

Hi Neal,

Are you a rugger?  I wonder how many of the French National Team are L21?  I think there is more of a Cro-magnon component with most of those guys.

I love rugby union, especially Six Nations. Didn't France win the 2010 tournament?

I haven't been following it lately, but France is usually among the best.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: IALEM on July 16, 2010, 04:44:45 AM
Yes, France won this year Six Nations. Rugby is very popular in the French Basque Country, Biarritz and Bayonne are very strong teams, especially Biarritz.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 16, 2010, 07:02:24 PM
That's close to Switzerland, I believe.

It's much closer to Germany and Luxembourg, actually, but still well inside eastern France.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on July 16, 2010, 07:30:45 PM
That's close to Switzerland, I believe.

It's much closer to Germany and Luxembourg, actually, but still well inside eastern France.

Yeah, it is closer to Luxembourg. In fact, don't they speak the same dialect?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 16, 2010, 09:31:52 PM
That's close to Switzerland, I believe.

It's much closer to Germany and Luxembourg, actually, but still well inside eastern France.

Yeah, it is closer to Luxembourg. In fact, don't they speak the same dialect?

I'm not sure, but Lorraine used to be part of Germany.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 20, 2010, 08:58:55 PM
Another new French R-L21 this evening: Bodet, kit 175379 (no Ysearch entry yet). His ancestor came from Gourin, Morbihan, Bretagne.

He has no close matches beyond 12 markers, so, if you guys are waiting for a Breton who matches Cornishmen or Welshmen, you will have to wait a bit longer.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 20, 2010, 09:19:01 PM
Another new French R-L21 this evening: Bodet, kit 175379 (no Ysearch entry yet). His ancestor came from Gourin, Morbihan, Bretagne.

He has no close matches beyond 12 markers, so, if you guys are waiting for a Breton who matches Cornishmen or Welshmen, you will have to wait a bit longer.
I think if we ever see a close match it will be an NPE in America or an historic movement like all the ones that you may get tired of hearing from time to time.

The historic notion of the Bretons is
Quote from: Wikipedia
They trace much of their heritage to groups of Brythonic speakers who settled the area from south western Great Britain in two waves from the 4th to 6th centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_people

That's 1500 years, at least.  There could (actually "should") be GD's of 15 to 20 from Cornwall/Dorset to Bretagne.  The only hope of a link is a few key signature markers and/or an SNP downstream of L21, probably.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 20, 2010, 09:37:31 PM
Another new French R-L21 this evening: Bodet, kit 175379 (no Ysearch entry yet). His ancestor came from Gourin, Morbihan, Bretagne.

He has no close matches beyond 12 markers, so, if you guys are waiting for a Breton who matches Cornishmen or Welshmen, you will have to wait a bit longer.
I think if we ever see a close match it will be an NPE in America or an historic movement like all the ones that you may get tired of hearing from time to time.

The historic notion of the Bretons is
Quote from: Wikipedia
They trace much of their heritage to groups of Brythonic speakers who settled the area from south western Great Britain in two waves from the 4th to 6th centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_people

That's 1500 years, at least.  There could (actually "should") be GD's of 15 to 20 from Cornwall/Dorset to Bretagne.  The only hope of a link is a few key signature markers and/or an SNP downstream of L21, probably.

I think a gd of 15-20 represents a timespan of a lot longer than 1500 years.





Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 21, 2010, 10:10:58 AM
Another new French R-L21 this evening: Bodet, kit 175379 (no Ysearch entry yet). His ancestor came from Gourin, Morbihan, Bretagne.

He has no close matches beyond 12 markers, so, if you guys are waiting for a Breton who matches Cornishmen or Welshmen, you will have to wait a bit longer.
I think if we ever see a close match it will be an NPE in America or an historic movement like all the ones that you may get tired of hearing from time to time.
The historic notion of the Bretons is
Quote from: Wikipedia
They trace much of their heritage to groups of Brythonic speakers who settled the area from south western Great Britain in two waves from the 4th to 6th centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_people
That's 1500 years, at least.  There could (actually "should") be GD's of 15 to 20 from Cornwall/Dorset to Bretagne.  The only hope of a link is a few key signature markers and/or an SNP downstream of L21, probably.
I think a gd of 15-20 represents a timespan of a lot longer than 1500 years.
I said 1500 years "at least."  The reason I used the 1500 years is that is typical of what people estimate for R-M222's TMRCA and when I look at GD's for (over 67) for R-M222 I see GD's of15-20 as the outer layer.

... but I won't argue TMRCA's because I can get a wide variety of estimates depending on the method and data selection.  Just read Tim Janzen's postings.  I'm also not the statistician that Ken et al are.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2010, 09:59:34 PM

I said 1500 years "at least."  The reason I used the 1500 years is that is typical of what people estimate for R-M222's TMRCA and when I look at GD's for (over 67) for R-M222 I see GD's of15-20 as the outer layer.

... but I won't argue TMRCA's because I can get a wide variety of estimates depending on the method and data selection.  Just read Tim Janzen's postings.  I'm also not the statistician that Ken et al are.

Me either, but I know there are loads of men from different subclades who are gds 15-20 apart, and it can't be anywhere near 1500 years to their MRCA.

Since we know at least some Britons settled in Brittany beginning in the 5th century, one would expect at least some of our Bretons to be getting at least some halfway proximate British haplotype neighbors. A gd of 15-20 at 67 markers is as good as nothing at all.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 22, 2010, 11:50:42 AM
I find the way the Rhine group is linked to the NW French group by a thin line near the Mosselle very interesting.  It sort of suggests rivers were vital and that the Mosselle and Rhine were used to link Atlantic and west-central Europe. I have thought for a long time that the Mosselle may be the (or certainly a) major  link between the Atlantic and west-central European L21 hotspots although perhaps the direction of movement remains uncertain.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 22, 2010, 12:36:18 PM

I said 1500 years "at least."  The reason I used the 1500 years is that is typical of what people estimate for R-M222's TMRCA and when I look at GD's for (over 67) for R-M222 I see GD's of15-20 as the outer layer.

... but I won't argue TMRCA's because I can get a wide variety of estimates depending on the method and data selection.  Just read Tim Janzen's postings.  I'm also not the statistician that Ken et al are.

Me either, but I know there are loads of men from different subclades who are gds 15-20 apart, and it can't be anywhere near 1500 years to their MRCA.

Since we know at least some Britons settled in Brittany beginning in the 5th century, one would expect at least some of our Bretons to be getting at least some halfway proximate British haplotype neighbors. A gd of 15-20 at 67 markers is as good as nothing at all.
I don't think GD's should be evaluated in a vacuum, period.  I think a combination of SNP's (to reduce "noise") and signature STR markers along with GD's can help improve the probabilities of understanding the relationships.

Sorry for getting off on a tangent.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 22, 2010, 07:31:05 PM

I don't think GD's should be evaluated in a vacuum, period.  I think a combination of SNP's (to reduce "noise") and signature STR markers along with GD's can help improve the probabilities of understanding the relationships.

Sorry for getting off on a tangent.

I agree with you completely. I also think geography should be considered, as well.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 22, 2010, 07:38:12 PM
I find the way the Rhine group is linked to the NW French group by a thin line near the Mosselle very interesting.  It sort of suggests rivers were vital and that the Mosselle and Rhine were used to link Atlantic and west-central Europe. I have thought for a long time that the Mosselle may be the (or certainly a) major  link between the Atlantic and west-central European L21 hotspots although perhaps the direction of movement remains uncertain.   

I find that trail interesting, as well. I guess if one moves up the Moselle Valley, it makes it easier to travel from the central uplands to the European plain (and easier going toward the west) in northern France.

So, north down the Rhine and west up the Moselle Valley could have been an important route.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: argiedude on July 26, 2010, 10:19:22 PM
Greetings, haven't been around in a while. :) What about the recent study of French y-dna that tested several downstream-R1b1b2 SNPs like U152 or U106 that scientific studies never consider? Edit: and it was supposed to have found an M222.

Ramos-Luis, 2010

doi:10.1016/j.fsigss.2009.09.026



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 27, 2010, 08:06:22 AM
You mean, Phylogeography of French Male Lineages (http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1875-1768/PIIS1875176809002340.pdf)?

Unfortunately, they didn't test for P312 or L21. What is really interesting about that study, however, is that what they call R1b1b2* was the most frequent type of R1b1b2 in every region they studied except for Alsace, where U152 was most frequent.

I think they found M222 only in Midi-Pyrenees, of all places.

Ramos-Luis et al tested for M222, SRY2627, U106, and U152. So, their "R1b1b2*" was every R1b1b2 who was negative for all four of those SNPs.

It's a pity they didn't test for P312 and L21. We might have really learned something.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 27, 2010, 01:28:20 PM
You mean, Phylogeography of French Male Lineages (http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1875-1768/PIIS1875176809002340.pdf)?

Unfortunately, they didn't test for P312 or L21. What is really interesting about that study, however, is that what they call R1b1b2* was the most frequent type of R1b1b2 in every region they studied except for Alsace, where U152 was most frequent.

I think they found M222 only in Midi-Pyrenees, of all places.

Ramos-Luis et al tested for M222, SRY2627, U106, and U152. So, their "R1b1b2*" was every R1b1b2 who was negative for all four of those SNPs.

It's a pity they didn't test for P312 and L21. We might have really learned something.



and you have to think that most of their R1b1b2* must be L21* and P312* in some unknown proportion.  Given that to date L21* seems to dominate over P312* in France (project maps) you have to think you have to think that more than half of that R1b1b2* majority (except Alsace) is L21 in most places.  Imagine if the list of R1b1b2* (their definition) could be tested for L21.  The hit rate would probably be very high with all the U152, U106 etc weeded out.

 I would also love to know if U152 drops of dramatically west of Alsace or if its gradual.  All we know is its big in Switzerland, Alsace, Italy and apparently parts of south Germany, maybe along the Rhine in general.  We have no idea if it has any major presence in the remainder of France which after all was a major chunk of Gaul, that part which was not subject to major permanent Germanic settlement and language shift.  I would certainly not consider a clade that is only common in the German overlaid periphery of Gaul a clear-cut 'Gaulish' clade as has often been claimed.  I am not saying it couldnt have been but it remains to be proven it is prevalent in France beyond Alsace.  If only we could get a hold of the percentages they found of each clade in the French study.  I seems really odd that they did not at least include percentages.     


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: argiedude on July 27, 2010, 04:06:56 PM
You mean, Phylogeography of French Male Lineages (http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1875-1768/PIIS1875176809002340.pdf)?


I have a feeling we've talked about this before. The study tested 27 SNPs and 17 STRs, but they don't show the data. Aaaargh. I think this is actually standard operating procedure in these Forensic Science International articles. We have to get that info.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 27, 2010, 06:34:19 PM
You mean, Phylogeography of French Male Lineages (http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1875-1768/PIIS1875176809002340.pdf)?


I have a feeling we've talked about this before. The study tested 27 SNPs and 17 STRs, but they don't show the data. Aaaargh. I think this is actually standard operating procedure in these Forensic Science International articles. We have to get that info.

Is the copy of the paper circulating maybe not the full thing? Maybe they want people to purchase some more expensive full version with Stats.  I think a few of us have emailed them.  I tried to aim low and just ask for the basic percentages but i got no reply.  It was done by a Spanish University so maybe emails in English didnt help but my grasp Spanish is strictly specialised to ordering beer and tapas. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 28, 2010, 07:57:24 AM
I have a feeling we've talked about this before. The study tested 27 SNPs and 17 STRs, but they don't show the data. Aaaargh. I think this is actually standard operating procedure in these Forensic Science International articles. We have to get that info.

Yes, we discussed this paper right after we found out about it a few months ago. I don't know what the other SNPs were, but apparently they tested only enough of R1b1b2 to find out if someone was M269+, M222+, SRY2627+, U106+ or U152+. No P312 or L21, sad to say.

Perhaps the paper focused on R1b1b2 because it is by far the most frequent y haplogroup in France, and the other SNPs tested were for subclades of various other y haplogroups like C, D, E1b1b, F, G, I, J1, J2, L, M, N, O, Q, T, etc.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: aktiva on August 01, 2010, 09:10:19 PM
I have broken down our French L21 results thus far by geographic region.

Alsace
1
Wendling

Aquitaine
1
La Tour

Bretagne
5
Gery
Huet
Le Bras
Le Com
Martin (Pelland)

Centre
3
Hebert
Mireault
Rotrou

Champagne-Ardenne
1
Mylott

Franche-Comte
1
Bontron-Major

Île-de-France
2
Delahoussaye
Doucet

Lorraine
1
Schneider

Normandie
8 total -

Basse-Normandie:
7
DePort
Labelle
Landry
Leprovost
Lessard
St. Jorre-dit-Sergerie
Turpin

Haute-Normandie:
1
Dubois

Pays-de-la-Loire
3
Cartier
Hamon
Sicher (Secher)

Poitou-Charentes
3
Dupuis
Dussault
LeBlanc

Rhone-Alpes
1
Gignoux

France- Exact Location Unknown
4
Chartier
Grenier
Lefeber
Rideau (there is a town called Azay-le-Rideau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azay-le-Rideau) in Centre on the Indre River, but I don't know if the Rideau surname is connected to it at all)

Here is a map showing the regions of France pretty clearly:

http://www.placesinfrance.com/map_france.html (http://www.placesinfrance.com/map_france.html)

The following lists the regions in France which thus far have not produced any L21+ reports (I have given the map number from the map above in parentheses to make it easy to spot them on that map):

Auvergne (16)
Bourgogne (Burgundy) (12)
Corsica (22)
Languedoc-Roussillon (20)
Limousin (15) (La Tour's ancestor came from right on the Limousin border, however)
Midi-Pyrenees (19)
Nord-pas-de-Calais (1)
Picardie (2)
Provence-Alpes-Cote-d'Azur (21)

Here's what I think. The apparent concentration of L21 in northwestern France is partly real but also partly the product of North American immigration patterns. The fact that we already have L21 from pretty much all around the rim of France I think is indicative that it is widely distributed throughout that country. Right now we really need some test subjects from the areas above, especially (1), (2), (12), (15) and (16). Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that many Canadians or Louisianans have ancestors who came from those places.

If we have to wait around for more results from current French citizens we may all be pushing up daisies before much is learned.






Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: aktiva on August 01, 2010, 09:19:35 PM
With respect to Canadian French and Louisiana French tests:

There actually is an FTDNA site dedicated to them.................

The vast majority of early Canadians came from Perche and Rouen................with a healthy sized group  of Picards as well.

If you are not finding much L21+ reported from French ancestry in Canada you will have to assume it is not a huge feature of Normandy and close by regions: because literally thousands of first Canadians are from this region................so you should have a lot of it showing up if it belongs there anciently.

The second most common ancestry is from Poitou........
followed by Brittany..........
followed by Paris.................
and a sprinkle from Toulouse

If L21+ exists to any large extent in these regions: it should be showing up greatly....based upon Canadian DNA samples;

The DNA changes for Louisiana which had more southern French migrants in later years (not counting Acadians)  however the Acadian modal values are pretty much Visigothic as expected given its history: followed by an influx of Protestants from Switzerland as well....S28+....before the Huguenot expulsions

What is not represented in Canada much is Burgundy and Provence and more remote French locations....such as the centre and hills of Pyrenees

Overall though: if the large amount of L21+ in Ireland represents the influx of Belgic Celts through Britain......then it would show up more in northern France and far less anywhere else.....and I think this holds true for the most part.....my sense is that L21+ is a Belgic Celt feature......

and I believe it is not a feature of Basque regions that have similar DNA profiles

Given that Canadians are very interested in DNA testing and most of them know where their ancestor came from: it is only a mattter of time before a very large pool of samples is available......and I believe unless they are Breton or Norman there is not going to be a huge amount of L21+


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: eochaidh on August 01, 2010, 10:42:15 PM
One problem with determining the origin in France of French-Canadians is that some came from other parts of France to Poitou (Charente-Maritme) before leaving for French Canada. My maternal great-grandfather was a "Coursolle"  who sailed from Ile-De-Re off the coast of La Rochelle. However the Coursolle family had come from Auvergne in south central France only a generation before. I do not know what the Y-DNA is for that line, and I don't know if any Auvergnats have tested.

The bulk of my French-Canadian ancestors are form Brittany, Normandy and Poitou as you stated, though.

Thanks,  Miles


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: eochaidh on August 01, 2010, 10:46:37 PM
And know I see from an above list that 16 Auvergnats have tested L21- . Interesting, I would assume then that my Coursolles are not L21+.

Thanks,  Miles


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on August 02, 2010, 07:04:57 AM
And know I see from an above list that 16 Auvergnats have tested L21- . Interesting, I would assume then that my Coursolles are not L21+.

Thanks,  Miles

The figure you're referring to is a map reference, Rich didn't provide details for R-L21 neg results


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Jdean on August 02, 2010, 07:25:44 AM
With respect to Canadian French and Louisiana French tests:

If you are not finding much L21+ reported from French ancestry in Canada you will have to assume it is not a huge feature of Normandy and close by regions: because literally thousands of first Canadians are from this region................so you should have a lot of it showing up if it belongs there anciently.


I think you've misunderstood the post, the problem isn't French Canadians are turning up R-L21 neg (quite the opposite in fact), but rather that most of the people being recruited are French Canadian creating a bias in the results from the parts of France that they come from and a great big hole in the middle of France where fewer people have been tested for R-L21


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: aktiva on August 02, 2010, 07:41:35 AM
It should be noted that as of August 2009 FTDNA posts that some sort of randome testing was done with French DNA samples and 58% tested positive for L21 and of these 61% were found in Northern France.........this would fit nicely with an out of Belgium theory for Celts.................with some back flow from Britain and Ireland later on.................

Now as of February 2009 the P312 Basque projects dont have a single L21+ member.......
whereas it certainly shows up in northern France, Germany and bits of Scandinavia

So if most Irish can trace back to Iberia..........then L21+ is something that developed later in Ireland...........because it is negligible in Iberia.........and then must have back flowed east ....................

I think it is easier to believe it has origins in and around Belgic Celts, spread west: and bottlenecked there: thus creating the density of Irish L21s...........

L21+ just doesnt seem to be a Spanish Basque lower France feature, meaning even if related tribes from the Alps spread there thus creating some ancestral echo in DNA profiles: the original L21 man must not have gone that route: but north instead...

Anyway that is what makes sense......




Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 02, 2010, 01:09:29 PM
L21 was extremely common in a near random sample of French people, albeit with an unavoidable sample bias to the north-west.  It certainly proves L21 is very strong between the NW, the Seine, the Garrone.  I think more than half of R1b1b2 people tested in that area came in L21.  L21 also seems to have a presence around the Alps in the SE France/Switzerland area.  

I think so far L21 looks strong in Gallia Celtica but very weak in Belgic Gaul.  L21 drops off to very little indeed in the Belgic areas of NE France and Belgium. So, I think L21 is not at all Belgic.  

Incidentally, the idea of Belgae in Ireland is not at all favoured by mainstream archaeologists and historians in the main stream.  For some reason people on the web and amateurs are obsessed with it because of O'Rahilly's book (which really should not be treated as some sort of bible the way it is) but the Belgae had a distinctive material culture and its not ever been found in Ireland.  

There is clearly a huge area of the centre of France where few people are testing at all.  It seems to me that most of France remains unexplored.  However, a recent academic study showed that R1b1b2 that is negative for U152, U106, M222 etc is the majority everywhere except in Alsace where U152 is the majority. The group that is the majority elsewhere must be largely composed of L21* and S116* although the proportion is unknown because they didnt test these SNPs.   There is every chance that L21 is common throught France.  In general its just turned up too often for every French heritage/French person tested for it to be anything other than common.  

As for Ireland, remember that there need not be an Iberian link (or at least a direct one).  That is mythology.  L21 seems rare is Spain but where it does appear it actually seems to concentrate in and around the east (especially the Basque country) and then also at the opposite extreme in the Azores and fringes of Portugal.  Rich's work on Iberian L21 to me is throwing up an unexpected decent representation of L21 among the Basques.  If anything I think the most likely looking origin of Irish and Atlantic British L21 is NW France which makes perfect sense geographically.   


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 13, 2010, 08:29:44 PM
Henri, Ysearch MS2TS, got his L21+ result this evening. His ancestor came from Plougastel, Finistère, Bretagne.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on August 17, 2010, 06:59:38 PM
another from Bretagne.

  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 17, 2010, 08:26:02 PM
another from Bretagne.

Yes, I don't think there's much doubt it's common there.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: DL Preston on August 31, 2010, 04:34:13 PM
Hello all researchers,

Awaiting the 67 Y DNA marker test results, we do have the first 25 though.  Therefore, I have a couple preliminary questions.  What will the last markers show in relation to the first markers? 

Additionally for the R1B1B2 groups, why doesn't that group show up in USA.  It is apparently only in europe on the maps.  Strangely enough, we are rumored to be french/indian and that is why we tested the Ydna for Chavis.  The current tests do not indicate a native or french decent as far as I can see.

There are no matches with the first batch.  Could there be matches out there with the last part of the 67 markers, if there is none with the first part?

We would like to hook up with some researchers that can help us track down our William Cicero Chavis and his ancestors in the USA and of course beyond.

Sabine


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on August 31, 2010, 09:23:18 PM
The last numbers are in addition to the first numbers.
Supposedly the more numbers you match the closer related you are.
Did you create a profile at www.y-search.org  ?
That way one might have a look at your sequence.




Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 13, 2010, 07:27:18 PM
We have a new French R-L21: surname Georgel, kit 182980, Ysearch BMPFE. His ancestor came from Gugnécourt, Vosges, Lorraine, in eastern France.

He tested L21+ with 23andMe. I didn't recruit this one. He just showed up on his own, which is nice.

Nice to get one from Lorraine, as well.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on October 13, 2010, 07:59:56 PM
Is that far from Luxembourg and Germany ?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 13, 2010, 08:29:10 PM
Is that far from Luxembourg and Germany ?

No, it's not far from either of them.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 14, 2010, 06:24:32 PM
We have a new French R-L21: surname Georgel, kit 182980, Ysearch BMPFE. His ancestor came from Gugnécourt, Vosges, Lorraine, in eastern France.

He tested L21+ with 23andMe. I didn't recruit this one. He just showed up on his own, which is nice.

Nice to get one from Lorraine, as well.

That is another one on the thin line of dots that seems to link the big French block mainly between the Garronne and the Seine to the group around the middle Rhine, largely bypassing the Low Countries and extreme NE of France.  It seems unlikely to me this sharp line roughly along what was the Celtic-Belgic boundary of northern France is not real.  With L21 it has struck me how often patterns are very early discernible and further testing tends to strengthen rather than change these early observed patterns.  I think though the great unknown about L21 in France is the centre of the country. This large landlocked area away from the coasts and the Rhine has had little testing.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 15, 2010, 07:15:37 PM

That is another one on the thin line of dots that seems to link the big French block mainly between the Garronne and the Seine to the group around the middle Rhine, largely bypassing the Low Countries and extreme NE of France.  It seems unlikely to me this sharp line roughly along what was the Celtic-Belgic boundary of northern France is not real.  With L21 it has struck me how often patterns are very early discernible and further testing tends to strengthen rather than change these early observed patterns.  I think though the great unknown about L21 in France is the centre of the country. This large landlocked area away from the coasts and the Rhine has had little testing.

I think it was argiedude who quoted Didier Vernade, who said the scientists of the U. of Santiago de Compostela, who did that study of French R1b1b2, are in the process of testing their samples for P312 and L21.

Since their French sampling seems to have been more representative than that of Myres et al, perhaps we can look forward hopefully to a better picture of old Gaul.

Sooner rather than later, I hope.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 16, 2010, 04:43:49 AM

That is another one on the thin line of dots that seems to link the big French block mainly between the Garronne and the Seine to the group around the middle Rhine, largely bypassing the Low Countries and extreme NE of France.  It seems unlikely to me this sharp line roughly along what was the Celtic-Belgic boundary of northern France is not real.  With L21 it has struck me how often patterns are very early discernible and further testing tends to strengthen rather than change these early observed patterns.  I think though the great unknown about L21 in France is the centre of the country. This large landlocked area away from the coasts and the Rhine has had little testing.

I think it was argiedude who quoted Didier Vernade, who said the scientists of the U. of Santiago de Compostela, who did that study of French R1b1b2, are in the process of testing their samples for P312 and L21.

Since their French sampling seems to have been more representative than that of Myres et al, perhaps we can look forward hopefully to a better picture of old Gaul.

Sooner rather than later, I hope.

It would certainly be nice to see it althoughI am not optimistic about how much it will clarify.   The entire area between the Seine and Bordeaux where L21 seems strongest judging by the project maps and Myres is represented only by a  sample from Rennes in Brittany. 

The test spots are

Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille)
Bretagne (Rennes)
Alsace (Strasbourg),
Ile-de-France (Paris),
Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand)
Provence-Alpes-Cote d’Azur (Marseille)
Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse).

Being Brittany, the L21 there will just get the same old explanations.  So, in a way this study will likely not through much light on L21's likely strongest area. 

I think taking the project maps and Myres together it is likely that L21 has a cline moving NW to SE with perhaps its area of highest strength being west of a line from Paris to the French-Spain NE border.  Anyway that is the feeling I get now we have both the project maps and Myres i.e. the cline is as strongly east-west as it is north-south and overall probably NW to SE.  Certainly if I recall correctly, what I presume is the western part of central latitude France in Myres 'west' had 2 or 3 times as much as the eastern part of central latitude France 'east'.  I suspect there might be a smooth cline from NW to SE.   


Of the test spots in the Santiago study I am least interested in Bretagne and Alsace as we already kind of know they are opposite extremes.  Parish as a melting pot seems an odd choice to me.  The SE is already well covered in Myres.  So the places I am most interested in are Lille in the NE (which I suspect will be like Belgium), Auvergne (our first chance to look at a really central area, albeit not necessarily representative of the centre as a whole) and Midi-Pyrenees (which I have a hunch may have a reasonable amount of L21 although I am not sure). 

All we really known from the summary is that U152 is very dominant in the east (confirmed by Myres) and less so elsewhere (also confirmed in Myres when you compare east to west) .  The text seems to hint that Brittany is an opposite extreme with low U152 although that is reading between the lines.  Again in between the lines it seems to indicate an intermediate position elsewhere.  The thing of greatest interest will be how their R1b1b2* group (negative for everything but untested for L21 and S116) breaks down.  Its the biggest group everywhere but Alsace.  It is impossible to know exactly what this means though and Myres et al seems to indicate that R1b1b2 is very fragmented rather than with any outright dominance of one clade. 
 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 16, 2010, 05:24:03 AM
While it is true that a better job could have been done with the Northwest, that Santiago de Compostela study is still far more representative of the French R1b1b2 population than Myres.

If we ever see P312 and L21 results from it, that will be an improvement over the current state of affairs.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 14, 2010, 04:03:13 PM
There's a new Breton R-L21: Cornec, kit N7241.

He doesn't have a Ysearch entry yet, and I don't yet know exactly who his most distant y-dna ancestor is or where he came from (except that he came from Bretagne).


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 18, 2010, 07:48:41 PM
There's a new Breton R-L21: Cornec, kit N7241.

He doesn't have a Ysearch entry yet, and I don't yet know exactly who his most distant y-dna ancestor is or where he came from (except that he came from Bretagne).

The y-dna ancestor in this case came from Dinéault in Finistère. He's on the map now.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 30, 2010, 07:44:04 PM
I think it was argiedude who quoted Didier Vernade, who said the scientists of the U. of Santiago de Compostela, who did that study of French R1b1b2, are in the process of testing their samples for P312 and L21.

Since their French sampling seems to have been more representative than that of Myres et al, perhaps we can look forward hopefully to a better picture of old Gaul.

Sooner rather than later, I hope.

It would certainly be nice to see it althoughI am not optimistic about how much it will clarify.   The entire area between the Seine and Bordeaux where L21 seems strongest judging by the project maps and Myres is represented only by a  sample from Rennes in Brittany. 

The test spots are

Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille)
Bretagne (Rennes)
Alsace (Strasbourg),
Ile-de-France (Paris),
Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand)
Provence-Alpes-Cote d’Azur (Marseille)
Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse).

Being Brittany, the L21 there will just get the same old explanations.  So, in a way this study will likely not through much light on L21's likely strongest area. 

I think taking the project maps and Myres together it is likely that L21 has a cline moving NW to SE with perhaps its area of highest strength being west of a line from Paris to the French-Spain NE border.  Anyway that is the feeling I get now we have both the project maps and Myres i.e. the cline is as strongly east-west as it is north-south and overall probably NW to SE.  Certainly if I recall correctly, what I presume is the western part of central latitude France in Myres 'west' had 2 or 3 times as much as the eastern part of central latitude France 'east'.  I suspect there might be a smooth cline from NW to SE.   


Of the test spots in the Santiago study I am least interested in Bretagne and Alsace as we already kind of know they are opposite extremes.  Parish as a melting pot seems an odd choice to me.  The SE is already well covered in Myres.  So the places I am most interested in are Lille in the NE (which I suspect will be like Belgium), Auvergne (our first chance to look at a really central area, albeit not necessarily representative of the centre as a whole) and Midi-Pyrenees (which I have a hunch may have a reasonable amount of L21 although I am not sure). 
All we really known from the summary is that U152 is very dominant in the east (confirmed by Myres) and less so elsewhere (also confirmed in Myres when you compare east to west) .  The text seems to hint that Brittany is an opposite extreme with low U152 although that is reading between the lines.  Again in between the lines it seems to indicate an intermediate position elsewhere.  The thing of greatest interest will be how their R1b1b2* group (negative for everything but untested for L21 and S116) breaks down.  Its the biggest group everywhere but Alsace.  It is impossible to know exactly what this means though and Myres et al seems to indicate that R1b1b2 is very fragmented rather than with any outright dominance of one clade. 

An R-U152 fellow named RRocca was able to get the detailed data from "Phylogeography of French Male Lineages" by Ramos-Luis et al - 2009. University of Santiago de Compostela

Here it is:       http://tiny.cc/yozud

R1b1*(xR1b1b2) = P25
R1b1b2*(xR1b1b2d,e,g,h) = M269
R1b1b2d = SRY2627
R1b1b2e = M222
R1b1b2g*(xR1b1b2g1) = U106
R1b1b2h = U152

As you can see, L21 was not broken out from P312 so effectively R1b1b2* is R-P312* plus L21* plus maybe a bit of M269* and L23*.

Here are the percentage frequencies for R1b1b2* (xU152,xU106,xM222,xSRY2627)

Bretagne 68%
Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur 38%
Ile-de-France 32%
Mid-Pyrenees 31%
Auvergne 31%
Nord-Pas-de-Calais 29%
Alsace 20%



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on December 01, 2010, 06:23:25 PM
I think it was argiedude who quoted Didier Vernade, who said the scientists of the U. of Santiago de Compostela, who did that study of French R1b1b2, are in the process of testing their samples for P312 and L21.

Since their French sampling seems to have been more representative than that of Myres et al, perhaps we can look forward hopefully to a better picture of old Gaul.

Sooner rather than later, I hope.

It would certainly be nice to see it althoughI am not optimistic about how much it will clarify.   The entire area between the Seine and Bordeaux where L21 seems strongest judging by the project maps and Myres is represented only by a  sample from Rennes in Brittany.  

The test spots are

Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille)
Bretagne (Rennes)
Alsace (Strasbourg),
Ile-de-France (Paris),
Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand)
Provence-Alpes-Cote d’Azur (Marseille)
Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse).

Being Brittany, the L21 there will just get the same old explanations.  So, in a way this study will likely not through much light on L21's likely strongest area.  

I think taking the project maps and Myres together it is likely that L21 has a cline moving NW to SE with perhaps its area of highest strength being west of a line from Paris to the French-Spain NE border.  Anyway that is the feeling I get now we have both the project maps and Myres i.e. the cline is as strongly east-west as it is north-south and overall probably NW to SE.  Certainly if I recall correctly, what I presume is the western part of central latitude France in Myres 'west' had 2 or 3 times as much as the eastern part of central latitude France 'east'.  I suspect there might be a smooth cline from NW to SE.  


Of the test spots in the Santiago study I am least interested in Bretagne and Alsace as we already kind of know they are opposite extremes.  Parish as a melting pot seems an odd choice to me.  The SE is already well covered in Myres.  So the places I am most interested in are Lille in the NE (which I suspect will be like Belgium), Auvergne (our first chance to look at a really central area, albeit not necessarily representative of the centre as a whole) and Midi-Pyrenees (which I have a hunch may have a reasonable amount of L21 although I am not sure).  
All we really known from the summary is that U152 is very dominant in the east (confirmed by Myres) and less so elsewhere (also confirmed in Myres when you compare east to west) .  The text seems to hint that Brittany is an opposite extreme with low U152 although that is reading between the lines.  Again in between the lines it seems to indicate an intermediate position elsewhere.  The thing of greatest interest will be how their R1b1b2* group (negative for everything but untested for L21 and S116) breaks down.  Its the biggest group everywhere but Alsace.  It is impossible to know exactly what this means though and Myres et al seems to indicate that R1b1b2 is very fragmented rather than with any outright dominance of one clade.  

An R-U152 fellow named RRocca was able to get the detailed data from "Phylogeography of French Male Lineages" by Ramos-Luis et al - 2009. University of Santiago de Compostela

Here it is:       http://tiny.cc/yozud

R1b1*(xR1b1b2) = P25
R1b1b2*(xR1b1b2d,e,g,h) = M269
R1b1b2d = SRY2627
R1b1b2e = M222
R1b1b2g*(xR1b1b2g1) = U106
R1b1b2h = U152

As you can see, L21 was not broken out from P312 so effectively R1b1b2* is R-P312* plus L21* plus maybe a bit of M269* and L23*.

Here are the percentage frequencies for R1b1b2* (xU152,xU106,xM222,xSRY2627)

Bretagne 68%
Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur 38%
Ile-de-France 32%
Mid-Pyrenees 31%
Auvergne 31%
Nord-Pas-de-Calais 29%
Alsace 20%



Not particularly surprising nor incompatible with the project map.  We have to get used to the lower numbers than we once thought possible due t the fact that, unlike in some areas, French R1b1b2 is very divided among many clades in most areas and therefore no one clade will usually have a very high count.  The important thing to note is that the S116*/L21* although hardly spectacular at around 30% throughout many areas is still the largest group everywhere in France except in Alsace where U152 was highest.  Alsace is clearly an extreme low at 20%.

Brittany at the opposite extreme is unfortunately is the sole representative of the whole NW and centre-west of France from around the Seine to the Pyrenees where the L21 project picked up the most hits.   Obviously the problem with picking Brittany to represent that whole area is that it has the sub-Roman British settlement too, possibly giving it a double doze of L21.  I think Brittany was always going to be the L21 peak but the project results (which during funded testing excluded Brittany) suggest to me that L21 is high throughout the whole NW quarter of France and there may be a gradual drop from that Brittany peak to the next areas tested at Paris and Toulouse but the sampling here obviously is not fine grained enough to pick it up.  

Its really hard to guess how much of this group is L21 and how much is S116*.  Myres doesnt seem to help a lot.  It had a respectable showing for L21 in western France but I suspect that area cannot be directly geographically compared with any of the samples in this study.  Also of course Myres combined S116* with Iberian clades so again comparison and inference is very hard to make.  

Based on the project results and the fact that both L21* and S116* by definition require an L21 test, I used to think you could look to the relative numbers of each in the projects to infer proportion that may be in this group but Myres has made me doubtful.  I suppose a number of likely S116* may have taken the L21 test but not followed up with enough other tests to earn S116* status.  That would magnify L21's apparent strength compared to S116* in the project results.  There is also of course no way of knowing if there is any sort of consistency in the L21*-S116* ratio across the country, especially with S116* really being a paragroup.  

Probably one thing that one cant fail to note is the sheer extremes of the east and the north-west.  Of course its not a simple gradient from east to NW.  The 2nd highest area of the L21*/S116* group is in the extreme SE of France.  I wonder if this is a reflection of Myres's strange L21 peak in a similar area and also the project map's outlying L21 sprinkle in SE France.  Otherwise there is a large chunk of France where L21*/S116* is around the 30% mark, 50% more than the low in Alsace but less than half of the peak in Brittany.  Again this intermediate quantity between the NW peak and a low in the east seems compatible with the project map.  

I suppose though that without any handle on the proportion of L21 to S116* we wont know much definitively.  Certainly the near-blind (north-western-skewed but deliberately non-Breton) R1b1b2 sampling seemed to hit L21 a heck of a high percentage of times so I would suspect (but obviously this is uncertain) that L21 must be the lions share of this L21*/S116* group in the NW quadrant of France at least.  Of course the relative strength of L21* to S116* could wildly vary so it may not be safe to extrapolate these observations to the whole of France.  Is there any real clues about the strength of the S116* paragroup in France?

Myres put L21 at about 14???% of all males in 'western France'.  That would be over 20%? of R1b1b2.  The closest representative in this Santiago study of what I would generally think of western France as opposed to the (North, south of east) would be the mid Pyrenees 31% L21*/S116* albeit that this could be described as near the southern extreme of 'the west'.  Certainly this would suggest that at least two-thirds of the L21*/S116* group is L21* in the west although this may be stretching inference somewhat.   If anything the L21 level in mid Pyrenees could be said to likely be a little lower than the average of the whole west so perhaps the L21 portion here is even higher.  Anyway that is probably a pretty desperate attempt to read between the lines.  


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 03, 2010, 01:12:45 PM
RRocca just posted this link.

http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1875-1768/PIIS1875176809002340.pdf

An R-U152 fellow named RRocca was able to get the detailed data from "Phylogeography of French Male Lineages" by Ramos-Luis et al - 2009. University of Santiago de Compostela

Here it is:       http://tiny.cc/yozud

R1b1*(xR1b1b2) = P25
R1b1b2*(xR1b1b2d,e,g,h) = M269
R1b1b2d = SRY2627
R1b1b2e = M222
R1b1b2g*(xR1b1b2g1) = U106
R1b1b2h = U152

As you can see, L21 was not broken out from P312 so effectively R1b1b2* is R-P312* plus L21* plus maybe a bit of M269* and L23*.

Here are the percentage frequencies for R1b1b2* (xU152,xU106,xM222,xSRY2627)

Bretagne 68%
Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur 38%
Ile-de-France 32%
Mid-Pyrenees 31%
Auvergne 31%
Nord-Pas-de-Calais 29%
Alsace 20%


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on March 08, 2011, 09:42:50 PM
Another Norman R-L21: Le Provost, from Avranches in Manche.

We already have a Norman with that surname, but these two gentlemen don't match, so we're looking at different Le Provost families, but both are L21+.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 03, 2011, 10:09:58 PM
I may have found another French L21*.  He has 67 markers and matches my L21* 11-13 Group B-2 cluster.  The MDKA is a Pierre Bergeron from La Rochelle, France.   I'm trying to make contact and get him deep clade tested but I don't see how he won't be L21*.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 04, 2011, 08:02:04 PM
I may have found another French L21*.  He has 67 markers and matches my L21* 11-13 Group B-2 cluster.  The MDKA is a Pierre Bergeron from La Rochelle, France.   I'm trying to make contact and get him deep clade tested but I don't see how he won't be L21*.

That surname sounds very familiar. I think I probably tried to recruit him but never got a response to my emails.

I hope you have better luck.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on April 04, 2011, 09:52:23 PM
Speaking of La Rochelle, my brother just got some of his first SNP results back:

P312+, SRY2627-

His distant ancestor is from Ile De Re, France.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 05, 2011, 08:30:31 PM
Speaking of La Rochelle, my brother just got some of his first SNP results back:

P312+, SRY2627-

His distant ancestor is from Ile De Re, France.

Cool! Let's hope he gets an L21+ result, too.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on April 05, 2011, 09:37:21 PM
Speaking of La Rochelle, my brother just got some of his first SNP results back:

P312+, SRY2627-

His distant ancestor is from Ile De Re, France.

Cool! Let's hope he gets an L21+ result, too.

I'm crossing my fingers!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on April 06, 2011, 08:21:44 PM
Brin (ancestral surname Brun), Ysearch R8N3D, has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. His ancestor came from Poitiers.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on April 06, 2011, 09:54:36 PM
Brin (ancestral surname Brun), Ysearch R8N3D, has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. His ancestor came from Poitiers.

That's not too far from La Rochelle. Good find, Rich.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 09, 2011, 08:10:41 PM
We have another new French R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Brunet, Ysearch S7WSF.

His y-dna ancestor came from Dieppe in Haute-Normandie, so I have invited him to also join the Normandy Y-DNA Project.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 13, 2011, 11:06:16 PM
We have another new French R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Brunet, Ysearch S7WSF.

His y-dna ancestor came from Dieppe in Haute-Normandie, so I have invited him to also join the Normandy Y-DNA Project.


BTW, Brunet is negative for all those recently-discovered, mostly British Isles subclades and is R-L21* following his Deep Clade.

He has no matches, not even at 12 markers, and is tested to 37 markers.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 06, 2011, 08:11:50 PM
There's a new French R-L21 today: LeNormand, kit N6464, Ysearch S2YSN. As you could probably tell by the surname, he's a Norman. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Ige in Orne in Basse-Normandie.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: seferhabahir on July 11, 2011, 11:56:47 AM
One of the most recent R-L21 WTY tests is from France and came out as L96+, so what does this imply? I can't find any other L96+ in the R-L21 Project. I didn't find any in ysearch either.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: seferhabahir on July 11, 2011, 12:32:08 PM
One of the most recent R-L21 WTY tests is from France and came out as L96+, so what does this imply? I can't find any other L96+ in the R-L21 Project. I didn't find any in ysearch either.

OK, I found an R-L96 in the FTDNA Brock Family Project (Kit #34465) whose earliest known ancestor is supposed to be a Cherokee called Aaron Brock Chief Red Bird of Clay County, Kentucky. Interesting for these two people to both be R-L96. Chief Red Bird is well documented on the web.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: seferhabahir on July 11, 2011, 12:40:29 PM
One of the most recent R-L21 WTY tests is from France and came out as L96+, so what does this imply? I can't find any other L96+ in the R-L21 Project. I didn't find any in ysearch either.

OK, I found an R-L96 in the FTDNA Brock Family Project (Kit #34465) whose earliest known ancestor is supposed to be a Cherokee called Aaron Brock Chief Red Bird of Clay County, Kentucky. Interesting for these two people to both be R-L96. Chief Red Bird is well documented on the web.

And some sources (I don't know how credible) say that Aaron Brock (whose direct male ancestors were Ashkenazi Jews) married a local Cherokee woman. I would believe an Ashkenazi Jewish connection to R-L21 France before I would believe a Cherokee one.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: seferhabahir on July 11, 2011, 01:53:37 PM
One of the most recent R-L21 WTY tests is from France and came out as L96+, so what does this imply? I can't find any other L96+ in the R-L21 Project. I didn't find any in ysearch either.

OK, I found an R-L96 in the FTDNA Brock Family Project (Kit #34465) whose earliest known ancestor is supposed to be a Cherokee called Aaron Brock Chief Red Bird of Clay County, Kentucky. Interesting for these two people to both be R-L96. Chief Red Bird is well documented on the web.

And some sources (I don't know how credible) say that Aaron Brock (whose direct male ancestors were Ashkenazi Jews) married a local Cherokee woman. I would believe an Ashkenazi Jewish connection to R-L21 France before I would believe a Cherokee one.

And another source (this one seems more credible) claims the Brock who is R1b-L96 descends from George Brock who lived in the same area as Aaron Brock' son Jesse, and was about the same age. The descendant believes George to be Jesse's son, but the descendant is the R1b-L96, and therefore no paternal relation to Jesse's "documented" sons' haplogroup of J1, where all the Ashkenazi references derive. Well whoever he is, we should get him to join the R-L21 project as a known R-L96.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 11, 2011, 06:25:13 PM
One of our French R-L21 guys is L96+? Which one?



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 11, 2011, 06:34:32 PM
One of the most recent R-L21 WTY tests is from France and came out as L96+, so what does this imply? I can't find any other L96+ in the R-L21 Project. I didn't find any in ysearch either.

OK, I found an R-L96 in the FTDNA Brock Family Project (Kit #34465) whose earliest known ancestor is supposed to be a Cherokee called Aaron Brock Chief Red Bird of Clay County, Kentucky. Interesting for these two people to both be R-L96. Chief Red Bird is well documented on the web.

He's Ysearch EBN2H, although that entry doesn't say anything about any Cherokee chiefs.

I've invited him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 11, 2011, 06:38:16 PM
One of our French R-L21 guys is L96+? Which one?

I see it's none of the French guys in our project, since none of them has that telltale "d" after the R1b1a2a1a1b4 string.

Do we know who the French L96+ guy is?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 11, 2011, 06:57:55 PM
Just found a new R-L21 in the French Heritage DNA Project: Lamphier, kit 78065, whose ancestor came from Languedoc.

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: seferhabahir on July 11, 2011, 08:10:27 PM
One of our French R-L21 guys is L96+? Which one?

I see it's none of the French guys in our project, since none of them has that telltale "d" after the R1b1a2a1a1b4 string.

Do we know who the French L96+ guy is?

Yes, he is FTDNA kit #176268 and can trace back 900 years in France. He and the "Brock" descendant are the only two that I can find who are R-L96. Their haplotypes are pretty different.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 12, 2011, 12:13:17 AM
One of our French R-L21 guys is L96+? Which one?
Here's what I have from matching up the ID's...
f34465   Brock   R-L21/L96   zzCountry   zzRegion
f176268   Gontaut   R-L21/L96   France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees

I have them both in a cluster I call "1121" that has a signature like this.
537=11 520=21 391=10 (464c=15)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: seferhabahir on July 12, 2011, 10:34:17 AM
One of our French R-L21 guys is L96+? Which one?
Here's what I have from matching up the ID's...
f34465   Brock   R-L21/L96   zzCountry   zzRegion
f176268   Gontaut   R-L21/L96   France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees

I have them both in a cluster I call "1121" that has a signature like this.
537=11 520=21 391=10 (464c=15)

Yes, it is Gontaut. Interesting that a few in your 1121 are negative for L96. Do you know anyone else that is L96+ ?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 12, 2011, 02:05:23 PM
...Yes, it is Gontaut. Interesting that a few in your 1121 are negative for L96. Do you know anyone else that is L96+ ?

What I was calling "1121" is based on this STR signature which is off-modal for L21: 537=11 520=21 391=10 (464c=15)

Here are the people in the 1121 variety:

f34465   Brock zzRegion L96+
f176268   Gontaut   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   L96+

fN68249   Ryan IS Ire z unk L21+ M37- M222- L96- L144- L159.2- L226- 3c1g
f71421   Carrucan IS Ire Munster L21+ M37- M222- L96- L144- L159.2- L226-

f13863   Daniels   IS Eng South East L21+ M37- M222- (L96?)
f6475   Longacre(Göteborg) SC North Sea L21+ M222- M37- P66- (L96?)
f117152   Rawlings IS Eng z unk L21+ M37- M222- 3c1g (L96?)

Ryan and Carrucan are L96-.  To me this warrants Ryan, Daniels, Longacre and Rawlings all testing for L96.

Also, Brock, Gontaut and Rawlings are 446=13, which is L21 modal.
Carrucan, Daniels, Ryan and Longacre are 446=14, which is +1 of modal.
Based on that my prediction is Rawlings will be L96+ and the others may not. However, I'll hedge that and say that Rawlings's closest GD is to Longacre, not one of the two L96+ guys.  

Here is another way to look at it.  At 67 markers, here are your closest GD's up to 15, in order

f176268   Gontaut   France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Biron   L96+   1121

f34465   Brock   zzzUnkOrigin   L96+   1121
f117152   Rawlings   England   L21+ M37- M222- 3c1g   1121
fN45541   Tiedeman   Germany, Lower Saxony, Stade, Heinbockel   L21+ M37- M222- L96- L144- L159.2- L226- P314.2-   1024
f155090   Carragher   Ireland   L21+   zzUnassigned
f86086   Kiely   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Waterford, Ballynamult, Tooraneena Parish   L21+ M37- M222- L96- L144- L159.2- L226- P314.2-   1014
f82353   Campbell   Scotland, Inner Hebrides, Isle of Skye   L21+   zzUnassigned
f13863   Daniels   England, South East, Buckinghamshire   L21+ M37- M222-   1121
f6475   Longacre(Göteborg)   Sweden, Västergötland län, Göteborg   L21+ M222- M37- P66-   1121

I don't know. My guess is L96 is a pretty small subclade, at least as far as the British Isles go. This doesn't mean much as France is vastly undertested. L96+ may be a subset of "1121".  It is probably at least a 1000 years old though as your GD with Brock is 10.

Perhaps you can try the "other" Brock with a short haplotype.  The Brock ancestry site shows lineage 1 MDKA as  George Brock  1785
34465 YSearch: EBN2H
42678 Ysearch: XPS7U
http://www.brockancestry.com/dna/results.htm

Perhaps the 42678 Brock can help you.... or the project administrator. I see one possible origin of the surname "Brock" is French “broque” or “brocke” meaning “a young deer”.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 12, 2011, 04:32:49 PM
I noticed L96 does not appear on Gontaut's Haplotree page, and his "R1b1a2a1a1b4" does not have the "d" on its tail for L96+.

I wish FTDNA would update Haplotree pages with WTY SNP results.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 12, 2011, 04:35:56 PM
. . .

Perhaps the 42678 Brock can help you.... or the project administrator. I see one possible origin of the surname "Brock" is French “broque” or “brocke” meaning “a young deer”.



I've seen the surname Le Brock or Lebrock somewhere. Maybe it was originally Le Broque or Le Brocke.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 12, 2011, 04:40:48 PM
Here is Le Brock:

http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Le+Brock&submit=Valider&client=cdip (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Le+Brock&submit=Valider&client=cdip)

Looks like a Breton surname.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: seferhabahir on July 12, 2011, 06:21:19 PM
I noticed L96 does not appear on Gontaut's Haplotree page, and his "R1b1a2a1a1b4" does not have the "d" on its tail for L96+.

I wish FTDNA would update Haplotree pages with WTY SNP results.

But then they wouldn't be able to charge you for retesting your own SNP.




Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: jerome72 on July 13, 2011, 05:18:25 AM
This surname may be English, French, Belgian, Dutch ect ..

On the geneanet's site, Brock is a surname rather English , also found in the north of France, Belgium the Netherlands (*):
 http://www.geneanet.org/nom-de-famille/brock

 Broch: in south-eastern France
http://www.geneanet.org/nom-de-famille/broch

 Broc: everywhere in France
http://www.geneanet.org/nom-de-famille/broc
 
In short, unclear...

(*) Geneanet is a French site, mainly with French data, so the results for other countries are largely undervalued


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on July 13, 2011, 07:24:40 PM
Brock Surname Origin

  From the Saxon Broc, a badger. Broch, in Gaelic or Irish, Cornish British and Welsh, has the same meaning.

Source: An Etymological Dictionary of Family and Christian Names With an Essay on their Derivation and Import; Arthur, William, M.A.; New York, NY: Sheldon, Blake, Bleeker & CO., 1857.

http://www.searchforancestors.com/surnames/origin/b/brock.php


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: seferhabahir on July 14, 2011, 09:52:32 AM
I noticed L96 does not appear on Gontaut's Haplotree page, and his "R1b1a2a1a1b4" does not have the "d" on its tail for L96+.

I wish FTDNA would update Haplotree pages with WTY SNP results.

But then they wouldn't be able to charge you for retesting your own SNP.

Gontaut now shows up as L96+ and R1b1a2a1a1b4d on the project pages.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 14, 2011, 10:34:04 AM
I noticed L96 does not appear on Gontaut's Haplotree page, and his "R1b1a2a1a1b4" does not have the "d" on its tail for L96+.

I wish FTDNA would update Haplotree pages with WTY SNP results.

But then they wouldn't be able to charge you for retesting your own SNP.

Gontaut now shows up as L96+ and R1b1a2a1a1b4d on the project pages.
Has he put himself in Ysearch.

I just did a query for all haplogroup = R1b1a2a1a1b4d but got nothing.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: seferhabahir on July 14, 2011, 11:59:26 AM
Gontaut now shows up as L96+ and R1b1a2a1a1b4d on the project pages.
Has he put himself in Ysearch.

I just did a query for all haplogroup = R1b1a2a1a1b4d but got nothing.

He is in ysearch as HZJRZ but it still shows as R1b1a2a1a1b4. Does FTDNA automatically update the haplogroup at some point, or is it a manual entry?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: seferhabahir on July 14, 2011, 02:07:43 PM
...Yes, it is Gontaut. Interesting that a few in your 1121 are negative for L96. Do you know anyone else that is L96+ ?

What I was calling "1121" is based on this STR signature which is off-modal for L21: 537=11 520=21 391=10 (464c=15)

Here are several more potential "1121" members from ysearch all with a Roberts ancestor, none of whom are as yet listed as L21 nor in the L21 project. They all have the right STR signature (but not 464c=15) and are all within a GD of 11 or 12 to Gontaut at 67 markers. Perhaps L96+ candidates?

SVCYK Roberts
YCBQS Roberts
GT5VK Roberts (FTDNA #94156 in Roberts Project)
EDDAG Roberts
4D5MT Jones, Roberts presumed (FTDNA #121419 in Roberts Project)


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on July 14, 2011, 02:30:30 PM
my 464c is 16....I'm L21+

I beleive 464 is considered a fast mutation rate. Nothing would surprise me when we are talking L21. It's been around for 1000's of years, and 464 has had the opportunity to change many times.
As far as 464 goes I like the "float around the model" idea.
I remember a poster mentioning this idea. I think it was Maliclavelli.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 14, 2011, 05:54:52 PM
I noticed L96 does not appear on Gontaut's Haplotree page, and his "R1b1a2a1a1b4" does not have the "d" on its tail for L96+.

I wish FTDNA would update Haplotree pages with WTY SNP results.

But then they wouldn't be able to charge you for retesting your own SNP.

Gontaut now shows up as L96+ and R1b1a2a1a1b4d on the project pages.

I saw that and created an R-L96 category at the R-L21 Plus Project. Gontaut is its sole occupant thus far.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 05, 2011, 06:37:15 PM
A new R-L21 just joined the Normandy Y-DNA Project, a French citizen: Lefèvre, kit E13942 (no Ysearch yet). His ancestor came from Varaville, Calvados, Basse-Normandie (near Cabourg).

I didn't recruit this one. I had no idea he existed until his new member notification showed up in my email just a few minutes ago.

We have a lot of R-L21 in the Normandy Y-DNA Project.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 13, 2011, 07:21:43 PM
Bellieres, kit E5371, whom I think I mentioned some posts back, finally joined the R-L21 Plus Project today. His ancestor came from the area of Toulouse.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 14, 2011, 08:24:02 PM
There's a new Breton R-L21 this evening: Le Guennec, kit N98545, Ysearch 2GZGY. His mdka came from Kervignac in Morbihan.

I wonder if I should bother announcing these anymore. We know Bretagne is full of L21.

Well, I enjoy announcing the new ones anyway.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on October 15, 2011, 08:45:27 AM
There's a new Breton R-L21 this evening: Le Guennec, kit N98545, Ysearch 2GZGY. His mdka came from Kervignac in Morbihan.

I wonder if I should bother announcing these anymore. We know Bretagne is full of L21.

Well, I enjoy announcing the new ones anyway.

I enjoy seeing the new ones too, especially from France and other places on the Continent.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 15, 2011, 09:33:07 AM
I'll see if I can get this person to join the L21 project.  He came up L513+ so is L21+ by default. The family is Canadian but they hired a genealogist and they have a complete record back to the MDKA.

f85844____ Bergeron_________________ R-L21/L513_______________ 1113-B-2-W_____ UGKAE___ France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on October 15, 2011, 06:39:24 PM
I'll see if I can get this person to join the L21 project.  He came up L513+ so is L21+ by default. The family is Canadian but they hired a genealogist and they have a complete record back to the MDKA.

f85844____ Bergeron_________________ R-L21/L513_______________ 1113-B-2-W_____ UGKAE___ France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle

I recall seeing that name in the French Heritage Project. Reminded me of the host of America's Funniest Home Videos, Tom Bergeron. My youngest daughter (age 9 now) loves that show.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 27, 2011, 09:00:42 AM
We have yet another Breton R-L21: Laumenech, kit 147885, Ysearch JC8XA. He has 67 markers but only has 37 of them uploaded to Ysearch. At FTDNA he has no 67-marker matches. At 37 markers he has two matches, one French (3 away) and one German (4 away).

Curiously, he lists his most distant y-dna ancestor as having been born in Bretagne but gives the town of his birth as Le Trévoux, which is down near Lyon.

BTW, his closest French match is listed as having already tested L21+. I emailed him and asked him to join the project. It is very nice that FTDNA now lists the tested terminal SNP of your matches.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: jerome72 on December 27, 2011, 03:44:09 PM
We have yet another Breton R-L21: Laumenech, kit 147885, Ysearch JC8XA. He has 67 markers but only has 37 of them uploaded to Ysearch. At FTDNA he has no 67-marker matches. At 37 markers he has two matches, one French (3 away) and one German (4 away).

Curiously, he lists his most distant y-dna ancestor as having been born in Bretagne but gives the town of his birth as Le Trévoux, which is down near Lyon.

BTW, his closest French match is listed as having already tested L21+. I emailed him and asked him to join the project. It is very nice that FTDNA now lists the tested terminal SNP of your matches.

Probably, it's Le Trévoux in Finistère:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Le+Tr%C3%A9voux,+Finist%C3%A8re,+France&hl=fr&ie=UTF8&sll=45.926797,4.812698&sspn=0.131822,0.219383&vpsrc=0&hnear=Le+Tr%C3%A9voux,+Finist%C3%A8re,+Bretagne,+France&t=h&z=12


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 28, 2011, 09:17:09 AM
We have yet another Breton R-L21: Laumenech, kit 147885, Ysearch JC8XA. He has 67 markers but only has 37 of them uploaded to Ysearch. At FTDNA he has no 67-marker matches. At 37 markers he has two matches, one French (3 away) and one German (4 away).

Curiously, he lists his most distant y-dna ancestor as having been born in Bretagne but gives the town of his birth as Le Trévoux, which is down near Lyon.

BTW, his closest French match is listed as having already tested L21+. I emailed him and asked him to join the project. It is very nice that FTDNA now lists the tested terminal SNP of your matches.

Probably, it's Le Trévoux in Finistère:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Le+Tr%C3%A9voux,+Finist%C3%A8re,+France&hl=fr&ie=UTF8&sll=45.926797,4.812698&sspn=0.131822,0.219383&vpsrc=0&hnear=Le+Tr%C3%A9voux,+Finist%C3%A8re,+Bretagne,+France&t=h&z=12

Thanks! I'm sure you must be right, but the coordinates on his myFTDNA pages indicate the southern Le Trévoux. It's probably a Google Maps mix up on his myFTDNA pages.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on December 28, 2011, 06:58:19 PM
I'll see if I can get this person to join the L21 project.  He came up L513+ so is L21+ by default. The family is Canadian but they hired a genealogist and they have a complete record back to the MDKA.

f85844____ Bergeron_________________ R-L21/L513_______________ 1113-B-2-W_____ UGKAE___ France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
I recall seeing that name in the French Heritage Project. Reminded me of the host of America's Funniest Home Videos, Tom Bergeron. My youngest daughter (age 9 now) loves that show.

Bergeron did come back L705.2+ so he is pretty well validated to be in my cluster.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on December 28, 2011, 08:02:12 PM
I'll see if I can get this person to join the L21 project.  He came up L513+ so is L21+ by default. The family is Canadian but they hired a genealogist and they have a complete record back to the MDKA.

f85844____ Bergeron_________________ R-L21/L513_______________ 1113-B-2-W_____ UGKAE___ France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
I recall seeing that name in the French Heritage Project. Reminded me of the host of America's Funniest Home Videos, Tom Bergeron. My youngest daughter (age 9 now) loves that show.

Bergeron did come back L705.2+ so he is pretty well validated to be in my cluster.

As far as I can tell, he never has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. Maybe you could ask him again?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 25, 2012, 07:59:23 AM
Two new French R-L21s overnight:

St. Jean (Ysearch 6QQ73), whose ancestor was born in Nantes, and Rioux, whose entry just says "France", so I don't know the particulars yet.

Rioux has no Ysearch entry yet.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 25, 2012, 06:39:22 PM
Two new French R-L21s overnight:

St. Jean (Ysearch 6QQ73), whose ancestor was born in Nantes, and Rioux, whose entry just says "France", so I don't know the particulars yet.

Rioux has no Ysearch entry yet.

Well the name seems to be a placename around Poitiers/La Rochelle area so broadly speaking it fits the general pattern of Atlantic France as of course does Nantes. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 25, 2012, 07:24:42 PM
Two new French R-L21s overnight:

St. Jean (Ysearch 6QQ73), whose ancestor was born in Nantes, and Rioux, whose entry just says "France", so I don't know the particulars yet.

Rioux has no Ysearch entry yet.

Well the name seems to be a placename around Poitiers/La Rochelle area so broadly speaking it fits the general pattern of Atlantic France as of course does Nantes. 

There is a second, as yet un-SNP-tested Rioux in the French Heritage Project who matches our L21+ Rioux, but he doesn't list his mdka nor does he have a Ysearch entry.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on February 26, 2012, 07:46:35 AM
Rioux's ancestor came from Morlaix, in Finistère, Bretagne. Interestingly, we already had a member whose ancestor came from that same town.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on May 31, 2012, 08:35:09 PM
There's a new R-L21 in the French Heritage Project: Bertrand, kit 229499.

I can't find a Ysearch entry for him.

I'm trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Here (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Bertrand&submit=Valider&client=cdip) is a map that shows the distribution of the surname Bertrand in France between 1891 and 1915.



Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on June 15, 2012, 11:08:10 PM
A couple of days ago we got a new member of the R-L21 Plus Project: Lemoine, kit 224274, Ysearch 4SNCE. He has no matches in FTDNA at either 67 or 37 markers (typical for our French members).

What is interesting is that this member is actually a Belgian citizen, but he lists his ancestral homeland as France, so I have him in the France category. What makes this interesting is the distribution of his surname according to this French web site (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Lemoine&submit=Valider&client=cdip). Notice its highest frequency is right on the Belgian border.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on June 15, 2012, 11:30:05 PM
A couple of days ago we got a new member of the R-L21 Plus Project: Lemoine, kit 224274, Ysearch 4SNCE. He has no matches in FTDNA at either 67 or 37 markers (typical for our French members).

What is interesting is that this member is actually a Belgian citizen, but he lists his ancestral homeland as France, so I have him in the France category. What makes this interesting is the distribution of his surname according to this French web site (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Lemoine&submit=Valider&client=cdip). Notice its highest frequency is right on the Belgian border.


I had not checked Lemoine's Ysearch entry until just now. When I did, I discovered he actually lists Belgium as his ancestor's birthplace, so I have switched him into the Belgium category on the Y-DNA Results pages of the R-L21 Plus Project (our first entry into that category).


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: NealtheRed on June 15, 2012, 11:42:56 PM
A couple of days ago we got a new member of the R-L21 Plus Project: Lemoine, kit 224274, Ysearch 4SNCE. He has no matches in FTDNA at either 67 or 37 markers (typical for our French members).

What is interesting is that this member is actually a Belgian citizen, but he lists his ancestral homeland as France, so I have him in the France category. What makes this interesting is the distribution of his surname according to this French web site (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Lemoine&submit=Valider&client=cdip). Notice its highest frequency is right on the Belgian border.


I had not checked Lemoine's Ysearch entry until just now. When I did, I discovered he actually lists Belgium as his ancestor's birthplace, so I have switched him into the Belgium category on the Y-DNA Results pages of the R-L21 Plus Project (our first entry into that category).

Don't you love Ysearch? It has hidden treats!


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: alan trowel hands. on June 16, 2012, 01:12:23 PM
I really hope this doesnt start all that weird Irish L21 Belgae stuff that has been posted in the past.  I think that stems from a non-pro book on Irish royal sites written by a clergyman. 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on June 16, 2012, 01:14:12 PM
I really hope this doesnt start all that weird Irish L21 Belgae stuff that has been posted in the past.  I think that stems from a non-pro book on Irish royal sites written by a clergyman. 

Me too!

Anyway, Lemoine has no matches at all in FTDNA's database at 37 or 67 markers.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on June 18, 2012, 10:38:05 AM
A couple of days ago we got a new member of the R-L21 Plus Project: Lemoine, kit 224274, Ysearch 4SNCE. He has no matches in FTDNA at either 67 or 37 markers (typical for our French members).

What is interesting is that this member is actually a Belgian citizen, but he lists his ancestral homeland as France, so I have him in the France category. What makes this interesting is the distribution of his surname according to this French web site (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Lemoine&submit=Valider&client=cdip). Notice its highest frequency is right on the Belgian border.


I had not checked Lemoine's Ysearch entry until just now. When I did, I discovered he actually lists Belgium as his ancestor's birthplace, so I have switched him into the Belgium category on the Y-DNA Results pages of the R-L21 Plus Project (our first entry into that category).

Don't you love Ysearch? It has hidden treats!

I love conflicts in the MDKA reporting... NOT!  I'm a little behind, but I try to look up the Ysearch IDs for all of the P312+ (L21, U152, DF27, etc.) people and reconcile or depict as specifically as I can the geographic origins.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on June 18, 2012, 07:28:20 PM
I usually check the Ysearch entries of new continental members. For some reason, probably because I was busy, I didn't check that one right away. I just went by what he had on his myFTDNA pages. Ysearch supplied the missing details, which in this case were far more interesting and matched his national citizenship.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 16, 2012, 01:32:18 PM
What do you think of this guy as a potential L21? or possibly Z253?

192377 3R3SK Andre Marceau (Mercereau), b. France

He has 511=11 557=17 which is common with one type of Z253 people, but
does not match on DYS464 even though he has had a down mutation there. His GDs are up to the 18 and more range with Z253+ folks but there are no better fits for clusters for him (that I see) and if he really happened to be from a point of
origin then we'd expect wide GDs.

I don't see GDs with other L21 people up into the mid to high 40's at 67 which generally means there is a good chance he is L21+, at the least.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on July 17, 2012, 06:08:35 AM
What do you think of this guy as a potential L21? or possibly Z253?

192377 3R3SK Andre Marceau (Mercereau), b. France

He has 511=11 557=17 which is common with one type of Z253 people, but
does not match on DYS464 even though he has had a down mutation there. His GDs are up to the 18 and more range with Z253+ folks but there are no better fits for clusters for him (that I see) and if he really happened to be from a point of
origin then we'd expect wide GDs.

I don't see GDs with other L21 people up into the mid to high 40's at 67 which generally means there is a good chance he is L21+, at the least.


Sounds good to me. He has no close matches at 37 or 67 markers.

I sent the lady in charge of the entry an email via Ysearch offering her an L21 test for that entry.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 12, 2012, 02:21:08 PM
There's a new French R-L21 today: Gadiou, ancestral surname Marché, kit 226146, Ysearch QMXMQ, from Deux-Sèvres, Poitou-Charentes (west of Poitiers).

His closest match at 67 markers (9 away) is a French-Canadian, Genest.

He is currently in the "Test Results Pending" category because, even though he already has an L21+ result, not all of his Deep Clade stuff is in yet.

If he doesn't come up positive for one of the Deep Clade-tested subclades, I'll offer him a DF13 test.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: brunetmj on August 14, 2012, 03:19:04 PM
Another plain  Continental DF13+ confirmed

I just completed my last series of SNP testing which confirms I have no down stream SNP’s after DF13+

Negative for L513- DF49- Z253- Z255- L96- L144-L371-L555- DF41- DF21-
I guess now it’s a matter of waiting for more Y walk through or perhaps the new national geographic tests to show more undiscovered SNP’s

Family was from Dieppe France.
Kit number 198135

P312+ L21+ DF13+ Z255- Z253- U152- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L555- L513- L371- L226- L193- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L144- DF49- DF41- DF23- DF21-
 


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 14, 2012, 08:24:44 PM
You're not alone. There is at least one other man of French ancestry in that category.

Category "Ca. DF13* (L21>DF13; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)" is a little cluttered with some multiple entries with the same surnames, but it has some continental members, as well some from the British Isles.

I guess some new SNPs are going to be needed to sort things out.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: avalon on August 16, 2012, 06:38:15 AM
I wonder what element of L21 in Brittany can be attributed to migrating Britons in the 5th and 6th centuries?

I'm no expert on the region but it must have been significant to have established the Breton language.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 16, 2012, 11:23:51 AM
I think it might be difficult to figure that out, since the regions are so close to one another and genetic affinity between them probably goes back a lot further in time than the immediate post-Roman period.

In both the R-L21 Plus Project and the Bretagne Project (I administer the first and co-admin the second) the L21+ members with ancestry in Bretagne do not have close matches in SW Britain (or anywhere else in Britain), despite the fact that Britain is well represented in the current y-dna database.

If one dates the main settlement of Britons in Armorica to the 5th century, then we should expect some 67-marker distances in a range of up to about 11 (notice I said about). This is using a rough rule of thumb of about 1 unit of gd per 150 years (I realize this is a matter of some controversy). As I said, that is a rough rule of thumb, as it does not take into account specific cases and the differences in mutation rates per str marker, etc.

I haven't really seen those sorts of matches between our Bretons and those with more recent British ancestry, but I will do some checking again when I get the chance (maybe this evening).


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 16, 2012, 01:09:13 PM
I think it might be difficult to figure that out, since the regions are so close to one another and genetic affinity between them probably goes back a lot further in time than the immediate post-Roman period.

In both the R-L21 Plus Project and the Bretagne Project (I administer the first and co-admin the second) the L21+ members with ancestry in Bretagne do not have close matches in SW Britain (or anywhere else in Britain), despite the fact that Britain is well represented in the current y-dna database.

If one dates the main settlement of Britons in Armorica to the 5th century, then we should expect some 67-marker distances in a range of up to about 11 (notice I said about). This is using a rough rule of thumb of about 1 unit of gd per 150 years (I realize this is a matter of some controversy). As I said, that is a rough rule of thumb, as it does not take into account specific cases and the differences in mutation rates per str marker, etc.

I haven't really seen those sorts of matches between our Bretons and those with more recent British ancestry, but I will do some checking again when I get the chance (maybe this evening).
That's what I'm seeing. Most of the French L21 don't cluster well with Isles folks. I think Brittany and Normandy had more input into Britain than the other way around as far as R-L21 goes. That's speculation, I admit.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on August 16, 2012, 02:03:52 PM
Could crop failure on a large scale affect y-dna diversity? like bottle-necks? Perhaps the elite would have had control of food storages, forcing others to go without. Could some ethnic groups have faired better in such times, better than the general population?
 http://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/londons-volcanic-winter.htm

Again in such times as the Black Death..could this have altered genetic diversity, and similarities between such places as England and France?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Castlebob on August 16, 2012, 02:25:22 PM
I know the 1349 plague hit the Scottish border region very badly. It led to a vacuum which, due to a variety of reasons, saw Cumbrians encouraged to fill the Scottish void. There were a number of plagues & famines during that period, so guess that fit, able-bodied workers who could tend the urgently-needed crops, would be more highly valued than previously.
I would think that a robust farm worker might suddenly be viewed as a better catch for the off-spring of a landed gent, particularly if he/she could keep his land maintained properly & thereby generate wealth for him. I think Michael Wood suggested as much in his recent BBC TV series.
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on August 16, 2012, 07:03:52 PM
perhaps events like those didn't alter any genetic similarities between countries, like France and England.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: brunetmj on August 16, 2012, 10:41:51 PM
In the 1670s, Giovanni Cassini , the discoverer of the moons of Saturn, began work on a project to create a topographic map of France. The interior of France was largely unknown. Several of his work parties were killed by locals believing they were practicing witchcraft.  Once you left Paris people spoke different dialects of a language that would only later in time would be recognized as French .
One village was likely not to  understand the language of a neighboring village. Living in the interior were people who were of unknown origins and customs. Celtic customs and places of worship were everywhere despite the churches efforts to eradicate them.The Brentons were among those people who likely kept to themselves and likely seldom interacted very far beyond their regions.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: avalon on August 17, 2012, 05:58:23 AM
I think it might be difficult to figure that out, since the regions are so close to one another and genetic affinity between them probably goes back a lot further in time than the immediate post-Roman period.

In both the R-L21 Plus Project and the Bretagne Project (I administer the first and co-admin the second) the L21+ members with ancestry in Bretagne do not have close matches in SW Britain (or anywhere else in Britain), despite the fact that Britain is well represented in the current y-dna database.

If one dates the main settlement of Britons in Armorica to the 5th century, then we should expect some 67-marker distances in a range of up to about 11 (notice I said about). This is using a rough rule of thumb of about 1 unit of gd per 150 years (I realize this is a matter of some controversy). As I said, that is a rough rule of thumb, as it does not take into account specific cases and the differences in mutation rates per str marker, etc.

I haven't really seen those sorts of matches between our Bretons and those with more recent British ancestry, but I will do some checking again when I get the chance (maybe this evening).

Thanks. I will admit that I am approaching this from a History background and I am still trying to get my head round the genetics (mutation rates, generation intervals, genetic distance, etc).

I imagine that there is closer y-dna affinity between modern English and modern Dutch and northern Germans simply because the Anglo-Saxon migrations were much larger than the British migrations to Armorica and because of the ancient genetic links between Britain and Brittany.

Unless there is another explanation for this lack of closer matches in Brittany?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 17, 2012, 08:59:16 AM
The closer one gets in England to the Netherlands and North Germany, the more the y-dna resembles those regions. As one moves north and west, the less it resembles them and the more it becomes like the y-dna of the nations to England's north and west.

I guess that isn't surprising. The areas of what became England where the Anglo-Saxons and, later, the Danes had the greatest impact are the most Germanic-looking in terms of y-dna (and probably autosomally, too). The percentage of apparently Celtic y-dna lineages increases to the north and west.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on August 28, 2012, 08:50:45 PM
There's another Breton R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project this evening: ancestral surname Le Duc, kit 235406, with mdka from Loudéac, Cotes-d'Armor, Bretagne. He's L21+ but awaiting a DF13 result.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: erwangery on August 30, 2012, 04:14:56 AM
On the R-L21 project distribution map, Labelle's MRKA is plotted in Paris whereas his place of origin seems to be "Saint Benoit, Normandy".

This Saint Benoit probably is "Saint Benoit d'Hebertot" in Lower Normandy.

As for Landry whose ancestor's place of birth is said to be in "L'Eure"  near Dreux,  I guess this actually is "Neuilly sur Eure" in Lower Normandy.

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Landry-410
http://www.landrygenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I1&tree=mylandrywebsite


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: OConnor on September 01, 2012, 07:13:17 AM
My great Grandmother Elizabeth Benoit spoke mostly French and came to Prince Edward Island late 1800's from Black Duck Brook, Newfoundland. She met my Great grandfather on PEI.
I have never heard of Saint Benoit, Normandy. Perhaps her earlier roots go back there?

A funny thing happened this Summer. I met an acordian player Percy Benoit who was born in Black Duck Brook NFLD. A possible long lost cousin?


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2012, 02:37:46 PM
On the R-L21 project distribution map, Labelle's MRKA is plotted in Paris whereas his place of origin seems to be "Saint Benoit, Normandy".

This Saint Benoit probably is "Saint Benoit d'Hebertot" in Lower Normandy.

As for Landry whose ancestor's place of birth is said to be in "L'Eure"  near Dreux,  I guess this actually is "Neuilly sur Eure" in Lower Normandy.

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Landry-410
http://www.landrygenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I1&tree=mylandrywebsite

Hi, Erwan.

I don't control FTDNA's project map. Where the pins show up depends on what the members themselves enter on their "Most Distant Ancestors" pages.

Sometimes things get weird in that regard.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: rms2 on November 04, 2012, 09:12:51 AM
In the old days, before Myres and Busby, when we were trying to cobble together our own research on L21, I used to check all the major geographical projects for new L21+ results. I don't do that so much now, since we kind of know how things are distributed. Anyway, it's been awhile since I looked at the French Heritage Project, but this morning I happened to check it out and found a whole bunch of (well, four) related Bertrands, all L21+ at least, whose mdka came from La Rochelle: kits  229499, 234677, 236449, and 238019.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults)

None of them is in the R-L21 Plus project yet.

I think I found the one Bertrand, kit 229499, some time ago and tried to recruit him, but the others are all new to me.


Title: Re: R-L21* in France
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 05, 2012, 01:08:22 PM
In the old days, before Myres and Busby, when we were trying to cobble together our own research on L21, I used to check all the major geographical projects for new L21+ results. I don't do that so much now, since we kind of know how things are distributed. Anyway, it's been awhile since I looked at the French Heritage Project, but this morning I happened to check it out and found a whole bunch of (well, four) related Bertrands, all L21+ at least, whose mdka came from La Rochelle: kits  229499, 234677, 236449, and 238019.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults)

None of them is in the R-L21 Plus project yet.

I think I found the one Bertrand, kit 229499, some time ago and tried to recruit him, but the others are all new to me.

Very good!  Thanks for the update.