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Title: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on August 12, 2013, 09:56:22 AM
There is a new P312+ SNP: DF99.

It is apparently parallel to all the other currently known P312+ SNPs.

This is one that all P312* guys - i.e., those who have tested negative for L21, U152, DF27, DF19, and L238 - should try, once FTDNA offers it for testing.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on August 12, 2013, 08:25:14 PM
I gather it is already included in the SNP chip test offered by Britain's DNA, the successor company to Ethnoancestry.

I am told the primers DF99 have already been identified and successfully tested, and that the testing companies have been given the details.

I will be curious to see how long it takes FTDNA to offer it. It is my impression that new SNPs aren't a priority with them, and perhaps that applies to SNP testing in general.



Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: gtc on August 13, 2013, 11:04:24 AM
I will be curious to see how long it takes FTDNA to offer it. It is my impression that new SNPs aren't a priority with them, and perhaps that applies to SNP testing in general.

I gather that individual SNP testing is a loss maker for FTDNA. They recently increased their price for it.

And I believe we're lucky that Thomas Krahn takes an interest in collecting primers for individual SNPs otherwise perhaps FTDNA would not be doing it.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on August 13, 2013, 08:14:38 PM
I gather it is already included in the SNP chip test offered by Britain's DNA, the successor company to Ethnoancestry.

I am told the primers DF99 have already been identified and successfully tested, and that the testing companies have been given the details.

I will be curious to see how long it takes FTDNA to offer it. It is my impression that new SNPs aren't a priority with them, and perhaps that applies to SNP testing in general.



Any idea what the Britain's DNA "S" number for DF99 is and how much BDNA will charge for the test?


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on August 17, 2013, 07:54:25 PM
I gather it is already included in the SNP chip test offered by Britain's DNA, the successor company to Ethnoancestry.

I am told the primers DF99 have already been identified and successfully tested, and that the testing companies have been given the details.

I will be curious to see how long it takes FTDNA to offer it. It is my impression that new SNPs aren't a priority with them, and perhaps that applies to SNP testing in general.



Any idea what the Britain's DNA "S" number is for DF99  and how much BDNA will charge for the test?

I have no idea what S number Britains DNA is giving DF99. I gather it is part of their new Chromo 2 chip test, which supposedly tests for 15,000 SNPs. It costs £189, or £129 for the raw data file only. I don't know if they're offering single SNP tests.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on August 19, 2013, 08:48:02 AM
Maybe FTDNA will offer it a la carte soon.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: Jdean on August 19, 2013, 03:37:41 PM
Maybe FTDNA will offer it a la carte soon.


Well you can order DF98 so they're not far off.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on September 13, 2013, 11:35:32 AM
I gather it is already included in the SNP chip test offered by Britain's DNA, the successor company to Ethnoancestry.

I am told the primers DF99 have already been identified and successfully tested, and that the testing companies have been given the details.

I will be curious to see how long it takes FTDNA to offer it. It is my impression that new SNPs aren't a priority with them, and perhaps that applies to SNP testing in general.



Any idea what the Britain's DNA "S" number for DF99 is and how much BDNA will charge for the test?

I am reliably informed that BritainsDNA is calling DF99 S11987. It seems like an unnecessary number of digits.

With the departure of the Krahns from FTDNA, I don't expect that company to offer DF99 anytime soon.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: razyn on September 13, 2013, 08:33:29 PM
Maybe FTDNA will offer it a la carte soon.


Well you can order DF98 so they're not far off.

In case anybody thinks this is a meaningful alternative -- the DF98 mutation is C to A at position 19065642; the DF99 mutation is C to A at position 8829491.  The one has nothing to do with the other, and their consecutive SNP numbers are coincidental.  The other kind of coincidence does occur, when a bunch of closely related SNP discoveries happen to be registered at once.  For example, Z195 and Z196 -- a call for one can (so far) predict the same call for the other.  They aren't the same mutation, but have been observed normally to go together.  Like white socks and white sneakers.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on September 14, 2013, 12:33:13 PM
My FullGenomes results have finally come in, and I am positive for DF99 as well as two other currently unnamed SNPs below DF99.

A long and frustrating wait to identify my subclade as finally ended, but because of the departure of the Krahns from FTDNA and the apparent disarray there wit SNP testing, it doesn't appear I will have many subclade compatriots anytime soon.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: Jdean on September 14, 2013, 01:05:38 PM
My FullGenomes results have finally come in, and I am positive for DF99 as well as two other currently unnamed SNPs below DF99.

A long and frustrating wait to identify my subclade as finally ended, but because of the departure of the Krahns from FTDNA and the apparent disarray there wit SNP testing, it doesn't appear I will have many subclade compatriots anytime soon.

DF99 could well be the litmus paper for the future of SNP testing at FTDNA, if they fail to provide this despite Thomas having ordered the primers then we'll know we really are in trouble !!



Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: samIsaack on September 14, 2013, 01:05:58 PM
My FullGenomes results have finally come in, and I am positive for DF99 as well as two other currently unnamed SNPs below DF99.

A long and frustrating wait to identify my subclade as finally ended, but because of the departure of the Krahns from FTDNA and the apparent disarray there wit SNP testing, it doesn't appear I will have many subclade compatriots anytime soon.

Congratulations! I have long associated you with P312**.. Glad to see you finally shed it.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2013, 06:56:51 PM
My FullGenomes results have finally come in, and I am positive for DF99 as well as two other currently unnamed SNPs below DF99.

A long and frustrating wait to identify my subclade as finally ended, but because of the departure of the Krahns from FTDNA and the apparent disarray there wit SNP testing, it doesn't appear I will have many subclade compatriots anytime soon.

Whoa! Eureka!

Congratulations!

Outstanding!


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2013, 06:58:24 PM
My FullGenomes results have finally come in, and I am positive for DF99 as well as two other currently unnamed SNPs below DF99.

A long and frustrating wait to identify my subclade as finally ended, but because of the departure of the Krahns from FTDNA and the apparent disarray there wit SNP testing, it doesn't appear I will have many subclade compatriots anytime soon.

DF99 could well be the litmus paper for the future of SNP testing at FTDNA, if they fail to provide this despite Thomas having ordered the primers then we'll know we really are in trouble !!



There's already a lot of positive buzz about BritainsDNA's new Chromo2 test.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on September 14, 2013, 07:13:53 PM
My FullGenomes results have finally come in, and I am positive for DF99 as well as two other currently unnamed SNPs below DF99.

A long and frustrating wait to identify my subclade as finally ended, but because of the departure of the Krahns from FTDNA and the apparent disarray there wit SNP testing, it doesn't appear I will have many subclade compatriots anytime soon.

DF99 could well be the litmus paper for the future of SNP testing at FTDNA, if they fail to provide this despite Thomas having ordered the primers then we'll know we really are in trouble !!



There's already a lot of positive buzz about BritainsDNA's new Chromo2 test.

I understand from something Dr. Andy Grierson posted elsewhere that DF99 is included in BritainsDNA's Chromo2 test.

Hopefully some P312* guys will go for it.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on November 07, 2013, 08:01:18 PM
Unless my eyes are decieving me, DF99 is finally available to order at FTDNA. Everyone who has tested negative for the other subcldes directly below P312 (L21,U152,DF27,DF19 and L238) should definitely order it. At this point we don't know very much about it, other than it appears to be fairly old and widespread. It may or may not be the last subclade directly below P312.

A study in the Netherlands found four DF99 examples out of a sample of 500 males, or slightly under 1%. It could be more or less common in other areas. 


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on November 08, 2013, 09:32:19 AM
Unless my eyes are decieving me, DF99 is finally available to order at FTDNA. Everyone who has tested negative for the other subcldes directly below P312 (L21,U152,DF27,DF19 and L238) should definitely order it. At this point we don't know very much about it, other than it appears to be fairly old and widespread. It may or may not be the last subclade directly below P312.

A study in the Netherlands found four DF99 examples out of a sample of 500 males, or slightly under 1%. It could be more or less common in other areas. 

I hope the guys in charge of the P312 Project are sending out a bulk email encouraging P312* guys to test for DF99.

Maybe we'll know a lot more about DF99 in a couple of months.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on November 11, 2013, 08:04:33 PM
Unless my eyes are decieving me, DF99 is finally available to order at FTDNA. Everyone who has tested negative for the other subcldes directly below P312 (L21,U152,DF27,DF19 and L238) should definitely order it. At this point we don't know very much about it, other than it appears to be fairly old and widespread. It may or may not be the last subclade directly below P312.

A study in the Netherlands found four DF99 examples out of a sample of 500 males, or slightly under 1%. It could be more or less common in other areas. 

I hope the guys in charge of the P312 Project are sending out a bulk email encouraging P312* guys to test for DF99.

Maybe we'll know a lot more about DF99 in a couple of months.

It has been discussed, but hasn't been done yet. I have been contacting individuals who have tested P312** and a number of them have ordered it. When the results start coming in, we should have a better idea of whether DF99 is the last remaining subclade below P312, or if there are more yet to be discovered.

A quandary for the P312 project at the moment is which SNP should be recommended for those who have tested L21-,U152- and DF27-: DF19 or DF99?


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on November 12, 2013, 08:50:46 AM

It has been discussed, but hasn't been done yet. I have been contacting individuals who have tested P312** and a number of them have ordered it. When the results start coming in, we should have a better idea of whether DF99 is the last remaining subclade below P312, or if there are more yet to be discovered.

A quandary for the P312 project at the moment is which SNP should be recommended for those who have tested L21-,U152- and DF27-: DF19 or DF99?

Unless someone shows through his matches or membership in a haplotype cluster some sign that he is more likely to be positive for one than the other, I would say you would have to recommend they test for both.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on November 19, 2013, 08:53:16 PM
Have there been any DF99 orders yet? Anyone know?


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on November 20, 2013, 03:36:03 PM
Have there been any DF99 orders yet? Anyone know?

About a dozen from a variety of P312** individuals, plus one order for the Big Y and one from FullGenomes. There are also at least two P312** people waiting for Chromo2 results. At least one of these is likely to be DF99. The DF99 orders from FTDNA are due around the end of the year.

Once all of these are processed, we should have a much better idea how much of P312** is DF99+ and whether there is one or more STR signatures for the subclade.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on November 20, 2013, 08:12:32 PM
Have there been any DF99 orders yet? Anyone know?

About a dozen from a variety of P312** individuals, plus one order for the Big Y and one from FullGenomes. There are also at least two P312** people waiting for Chromo2 results. At least one of these is likely to be DF99. The DF99 orders from FTDNA are due around the end of the year.

Once all of these are processed, we should have a much better idea how much of P312** is DF99+ and whether there is one or more STR signatures for the subclade.

I just found out today that DF99 is included in Chromo2 under the guise of S11987.

Were you aware of the S series name for it?


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on November 21, 2013, 09:36:13 PM
Have there been any DF99 orders yet? Anyone know?

About a dozen from a variety of P312** individuals, plus one order for the Big Y and one from FullGenomes. There are also at least two P312** people waiting for Chromo2 results. At least one of these is likely to be DF99. The DF99 orders from FTDNA are due around the end of the year.

Once all of these are processed, we should have a much better idea how much of P312** is DF99+ and whether there is one or more STR signatures for the subclade.

I just found out today that DF99 is included in Chromo2 under the guise of S11987.

Were you aware of the S series name for it?

Yes, see my post #7 above.

An email has now gone out to all P312** individuals in the P312 Project.

A couple of more orders for it have come in.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on November 22, 2013, 08:33:55 AM


Yes, see my post #7 above.

An email has now gone out to all P312** individuals in the P312 Project.

A couple of more orders for it have come in.

Ah. I must have missed that one or forgot it.

I got an email from Dr. Jim Wilson a couple of days ago with an excel sheet listing alternative names for S series SNPs. Out of curiosity, I checked for DF99 and found S11987.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on November 22, 2013, 05:01:59 PM
There is both good news and bad news on the DF99 front. The good news is two results have already come in, over a month before their due date.

The bad news is both were negative. Both are of British ancestry.

We now know that DF99 is not the last subclade directly below P312. There is at least one more remaining.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on November 23, 2013, 03:53:33 PM
Further developments: after four DF negative results, the first positive one came in this morning. He and I appear to be a GD of 34 @ 66 markers, which reinforces the idea that this is an old subclade. I don't like to name him publicly without getting his permission first. I will contact him to see if he minds.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on November 24, 2013, 03:57:02 AM
There are now two DF99+ results, versus five negative results. I can now identify the first as Fimbres. His ancestry is from Spain by way of Mexico, but he says his ancestor was a Flemish silk merchant who settled in Bilboa, Spain in the 17th century. He has found a legal record which describes his ancestor Juan de Fimbres as a "Flamenco," and he believes he is the same as a Johannes Fimbres who was born near Liege in 1635. Since we know there are four DF99 samples in the Netherlands study, it is not surprising that it should be found in Flanders as well.

The second DF99+ result is no surprise. It is Barreldriver, who matches me on six rare to unusual off modals. Our ancestors come from neighboring counties in England. However we are a GD of 28 at 76 markers, so obviously the connection is not particularly close.

Fimbres results appear to establish that there is no STR signature common to DF99.

The five negative results show that there is at least one, and probably more than one subclade within P312 that hasn't been identified yet. Two of the negative samples are members of a fairly large variety, almost all of whom have Welsh or English surnames. This variety is distinguished by nine different off modals. When this subclade is finally identified, it will be important to our knowledge of Ydna in England.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: Castlebob on November 24, 2013, 04:19:30 AM
Thanks for that info, Goldenhind. Very illuminating. I was fascinated to see the R1b-S116 group distribution map supplied by BritainsDNA. It shows a mere 5% in Wales as opposed to 10% across Central & East England. S W England is shown as 13%, S E as 11%. Yorkshire is 8%, while Northern England is the highest at 14%, with Central Scotland at 12%. Ireland averages 7%.
Had Wales, S W England and the north had far higher percentages than the rest of Britain & the Isles, then I'd have thought that a strong  Brythonic Celt influence existed for this HG. However, the map shows Wales as the lowest percentage for R1b-S116. Has anyone with obvious Welsh ancestry been supplied with a map?
My research via medieval docs suggests a Flemish link for my Anglo-Scottish border surname, so I'd like to see more DNA info regarding north east France & Belgium. However, I do appreciate we're dealing with extremely distant timescales, thus making surname links extremely  problematic!


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on November 24, 2013, 10:38:42 AM
Interesting, especially the information on Fimbres.

I look forward to hearing about more DF99+ results.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on December 05, 2013, 09:55:13 PM
I am very pleased to report that DF99 has finally been placed on the ISOGG R1b as a new subclade under P312 with the designation R1b1a2a1a2f. Previously it was merely listed as an SNP under investigation.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: rms2 on December 06, 2013, 07:44:24 AM
I am very pleased to report that DF99 has finally been placed on the ISOGG R1b as a new subclade under P312 with the designation R1b1a2a1a2f. Previously it was merely listed as an SNP under investigation.

That's good to hear. The coming new year should witness a lot of learning about DF99 (and other heretofore unknown SNPs).

Continued Big Y, Geno 2.0, and Chromo2 testing should uncover some more DF99+ men, as will a la carte testing.

Should be an interesting year.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: GoldenHind on December 08, 2013, 12:30:57 AM

Two more DF99 results posted today, both positive. One is from northern Italy. We already had knew there was a DF99+ from Tuscany in the 1KG Project, so this is now two.

The second is from Scotland, the first from there.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: Maliclavelli on December 08, 2013, 04:26:37 AM

Two more DF99 results posted today, both positive. One is from northern Italy. We already had knew there was a DF99+ from Tuscany in the 1KG Project, so this is now two.

The second is from Scotland, the first from there.

Of  course it is by chance, but 1 Tuscan out about 50 it is 2%. The case of Penna from Liguria strengthens this trend.
Netherlands with 4 cases out of 500 is at 0.8%.
The origin of R-P312* from the Italian Refugium has been theorized by me from many years besides R1b1*, R-M269*, R-L51*, R-U152*.
About the scarcity of R-L11* I spoke a lot: it is above all from German people (see my friend Ballard positions), but Italy (Tuscany) has the most varied sample known so far (Pistoia province).


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: fyrmanStu on April 20, 2014, 01:31:49 PM
Just tested positive for DF99.  Biddenden, Kent, England is farthest I go back with paternal ancestor. B6530 is my kit on familytreeDNA.


Title: Re: New P312+ SNP: DF99 (P312>DF99)
Post by: palamede on April 23, 2014, 07:16:07 AM
Just tested positive for DF99.  Biddenden, Kent, England is farthest I go back with paternal ancestor. B6530 is my kit on familytreeDNA.

See the thread  http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1210-DF99-(P312-gt-DF99)/page20