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Title: An interesting R-L23/L150+
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 17, 2013, 05:07:46 AM
An interesting R-L23/L150+ has appeared in the “ht 35 FTDNA Project”:

E10342       R1b1a2a1    R-L150   L1-, L144-, L148-, L150+, L159.2-, L164-, L165-, L176.2-, L188-, L193-, L196-, L2-, L20-, L21-, L217-, L226-, L257-, L325-, L4-, L44-, L47-, L48-, L51-, M269+

E10342       Unknown Origin   R1b1a2a1    13   25   14   10   11-12   11   12   11   13   13   28

Even though he is anonymous, being tested from the Swiss branch of FTDNA, we can suppose he is European.

Of course I found and put on ySearch from SMGF a similar haplotype from Brazil:
M57PY (Alves Dos Santos). Now we know that also DYS426=11 could belong to R-L23 and not necessarily to R-M269*, even though we should test a SNP more reliable than L150 for being sure.

M57PY demonstrates that this cluster gets DYS426=11, DYS462=12, 1B07=8 and DYS452=28, and some of these values are present also in Zebary from Iraq (X3HFU). Then an ancient cluster of R-L23 diffused from Middle East to Western Europe. This could be a link with the weird R-L23 of the Russian Jew Volkov (NDZNC), with his DYS426=10 (from 11).


Title: Re: An interesting R-L23/L150+
Post by: acekon on February 17, 2013, 03:22:09 PM
An interesting R-L23/L150+ has appeared in the “ht 35 FTDNA Project”:

E10342       R1b1a2a1    R-L150   L1-, L144-, L148-, L150+, L159.2-, L164-, L165-, L176.2-, L188-, L193-, L196-, L2-, L20-, L21-, L217-, L226-, L257-, L325-, L4-, L44-, L47-, L48-, L51-, M269+

E10342       Unknown Origin   R1b1a2a1    13   25   14   10   11-12   11   12   11   13   13   28

Even though he is anonymous, being tested from the Swiss branch of FTDNA, we can suppose he is European.

Of course I found and put on ySearch from SMGF a similar haplotype from Brazil:
M57PY (Alves Dos Santos). Now we know that also DYS426=11 could belong to R-L23 and not necessarily to R-M269*, even though we should test a SNP more reliable than L150 for being sure.

M57PY demonstrates that this cluster gets DYS426=11, DYS462=12, 1B07=8 and DYS452=28, and some of these values are present also in Zebary from Iraq (X3HFU). Then an ancient cluster of R-L23 diffused from Middle East to Western Europe. This could be a link with the weird R-L23 of the Russian Jew Volkov (NDZNC), with his DYS426=10 (from 11).



It's a little premature without more snp's.  Also no 426=10 exist in following Middle East projects.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Arabia/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Lebanon-Syria-DNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

Also 426=10 is only "1" in entire Jewish R1b project, amongst perhaps as many as 10-20 various  R1b lines. Most likely convert from nearly extinct line from Ukraine.

79073    Krivoy Rog, Ukraine    Ukraine    R1b1a2a    12    24    14    10    11-15    10    12    12    13    14    28

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults


Title: Re: An interesting R-L23/L150+
Post by: OConnor on February 18, 2013, 12:19:45 PM
I thought a lot of the sequences in the above Jewish project looked similar to mine with the first 25 str's.  Even many with 464=15 15 16 16 like me.

But I am L21+


Title: Re: An interesting R-L23/L150+
Post by: acekon on February 18, 2013, 10:04:41 PM
I thought a lot of the sequences in the above Jewish project looked similar to mine with the first 25 str's.  Even many with 464=15 15 16 16 like me.

But I am L21+

Strong and Gilpin are from Ireland if my memory serves me correct ,and they are not L21+ rather they are Z2105+ Only some of the Jewish members are in z2105 +.

z2105 Distribution is also interesting. Somewhat similar pattern toR1a*+R1a1*

Pockets of z2105 among Assyrians, Talysh, Armenians,Lurs, Anatolians,
Talysh. Talysh and  Balochi are North-Western branch Iranian language, Assyrian[quite interesting in by itself] perhaps has a ancient substrate tied in with the two North -Western; just speculation. Starting from Abu Dhabi. all the way to Ireland.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Arabia/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=results

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Iranian_languages_area.png



 


Title: Re: An interesting R-L23/L150+
Post by: A_Wode on February 18, 2013, 10:19:39 PM
I thought a lot of the sequences in the above Jewish project looked similar to mine with the first 25 str's.  Even many with 464=15 15 16 16 like me.

But I am L21+

Strong and Gilpin are from Ireland if my memory serves me correct 

Possibly, but those 2 surnames are not Irish but rather English or Norman.


Title: Re: An interesting R-L23/L150+
Post by: acekon on February 19, 2013, 11:22:34 AM
Possibly, but those 2 surnames are not Irish but rather English or Norman.

What about,
Dodecad K12b Irish-Gedrosia_11.9% Indus River to the southern edge of the Strait of Hormuz
Lactase gene has a higher expression when T−13910,[The version of the allele most common amongst Europeans is estimated to have risen to significant frequencies about 7,500 years ago in the central Balkans and Central Europe,?]
http://tinyurl.com/b6msajr
http://tinyurl.com/bkcolbo
http://tinyurl.com/az5pvw2


Title: Re: An interesting R-L23/L150+
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 21, 2013, 12:07:49 PM
2   14   13   28   25   10   13   13   11,11   12   11   15   19   15   16   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   13   28   25   10   13   13   11,11   12   12   15   19   15   16   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 300   Brasilia, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian]   Admixed   Latin America
1 of 77   Paraná,Brazil [Admixed]   Admixed   Latin America
1 of 109   Ceará,Brazil [Admixed]   Admixed   Latin America


The link of this haplotype with Portugal and Brazil seems the closest one.

But also with the whole Western European world:

14   13   29   25   10   13   13   11,11                                             12   >>

2 of 1476   United States [European American]   Eurasian - European   North America
2 of 1431   United States [African American]   African - Afro-American   North America
1 of 142   New Providence, Bahamas [Bahamian]   Admixed   North America
1 of 222   Latium, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 113   Belgium [Flemish]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 317   Central Norway, Norway [Norwegian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 774   Rostock, Germany [German]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 182   Lombardy, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 493   Eastern Norway, Norway [Norwegian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 21   Pantelleria, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe


14   13   28   24   10   13   13   11,11                                             2   >>

1   14   13   28   24   10   13   13   11,11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   13   28   24   10   13   13   11,11   12   12   15   19   14   16   24   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 1476   United States [European American]   Eurasian - European   North America
1 of 78   Texas, United States [European American]   Eurasian - European   North America

14   13   28   25   11   13   13   11,11                                             1   >>

1   14   13   28   25   11   13   13   11,11   12   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 287   London, United Kingdom [English]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe


14   13   28   25   10   14   13   11,11                                             1   >>

1 of 247   Alagoas, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian]   Admixed   Latin America





Title: Re: An interesting R-L23/L150+
Post by: geni on February 22, 2013, 02:02:14 PM
it would be interesting a map of r1b z2105...


Title: Re: An interesting R-L23/L150+
Post by: Maliclavelli on February 22, 2013, 03:33:25 PM
it would be interesting a map of r1b z2105...

From the last paper about the Algerian y-DNA, we have the following results about R-L23:

Italy 4,50%
Balkans 4,56%
Caucasus 5,92%
Turkey 11,47%

If we consider that Turkey and Caucasus are above all Armenians, probably come from the Balkans like an Indo-European people, and that there are many subclades like L277 and L584, I think that Italy isn’t excluded like the place of origin of R-L23 and upstream subclades. Italians are above all R-Z2103/Z2105+ but L277 and L584-, and also Z2110-, found positive in the Balkans (Italian Arbereshe Varipapa).

We are searching for the first R-L23/L150+ and Z2103 or Z2105-.


Title: Re: An interesting R-L23/L150+
Post by: Trish13 on February 22, 2013, 11:58:27 PM
I wish I understood more about this. It is so interesting and so over my head :(