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Title: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: chris1 on February 10, 2013, 09:06:30 AM
I am just wondering if a member of the R1b-P312 cluster known as the 'O'Neill Variety' has tested for the SNP DF27 yet?


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on February 10, 2013, 03:16:54 PM
I am just wondering if a member of the R1b-P312 cluster known as the 'O'Neill Variety' has tested for the SNP DF27 yet?

I remember reading somewhere that they had tested positive for DF27.  It might have been a thread on this forum. 


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: samIsaack on February 10, 2013, 04:02:57 PM
Its in the SRY2627 thread. Dubthach mentioned that two three people with the surname O'neill had tested positive for DF27. Though I believe Dubthach was hinting at the possibility of a Npe.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Dubhthach on February 11, 2013, 06:36:15 AM
There's at least one carrying the "O'Neill Variety" signature who is DF27+ in the Ireland project. This is: 179484 (McCain), he is a GD of 6 @67 markers from Neal (68848), who the  Ireland project had sponsored for Z196 (came back Z196-)

 http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf (http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf)

When I mentioned about an NPE it's to do with idea that the Ó Néill family genealogy in the 12th century has bee contested for awhile. They had basically been deposed from the Kingship and suffer heavily losses in Battle. They then spent 140 years in the "wilderness" without access to Kingship of Northern Uí Néill. Some genealogists have historically challenged the number of generations reported for the Ó Néill main lineage during this period.

Note: Uí Néill doesn't equal the same as Ó Néill
Uí = plural descendants (pronunced like: ee)
Ó = grandson

In this case the Uí Néill were a large dynastical grouping claiming desent from "Niall Noígíallach" (Niall na Naoi nGiallach) eg. Niall of the Nine Hostages. The Uí Néill had two main dynastical branches these been the Northern and Southern Uí Néill. Each of which were divided into multiple kindreds (Cineál / O.Irish=cenél).

In the case of the Northern Uí Néill the two main kindres were the Cenél Chonaill (of Tír Chonaill eg. Donegal) and the Cenél nEoghain (of Tír Eoghain eg. Tyrone).

Anyways the Ó Néill family/surname are of the Cenél nEoghain, they are named after "Niall Glúndubh mac Aodha", king of Ireland 916-919AD. His grandson was Domnall ua Néill (ua = Old/middle Irish for Ó), the first to bear the surname.

Traditionally the Uí Néill had held the "high kingship" in period before the 11th century. The operated on a system of rotation. The kingship would rotate between North and South on each succession eg.
"Northern King" -> "Southern King" -> "Northern King" -> "Southern King" etc.

Originally you would have probably also see "rotation" within the dynasties as to which kindred held the kingship. However by later period in the North anyways the Cenél nEoghain had excluded the Cenél Chonaill form the kingship of Aileach (An Tuasiceart eg. The North).


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on February 11, 2013, 10:13:35 AM
There's at least one carrying the "O'Neill Variety" signature who is DF27+ in the Ireland project. This is: 179484 (McCain), he is a GD of 6 @67 markers from Neal (68848), who the  Ireland project had sponsored for Z196 (came back Z196-)

 http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf (http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf)

When I mentioned about an NPE it's to do with idea that the Ó Néill family genealogy in the 12th century has bee contested for awhile. They had basically been deposed from the Kingship and suffer heavily losses in Battle. They then spent 140 years in the "wilderness" without access to Kingship of Northern Uí Néill. Some genealogists have historically challenged the number of generations reported for the Ó Néill main lineage during this period.

Note: Uí Néill doesn't equal the same as Ó Néill
Uí = plural descendants (pronunced like: ee)
Ó = grandson

In this case the Uí Néill were a large dynastical grouping claiming desent from "Niall Noígíallach" (Niall na Naoi nGiallach) eg. Niall of the Nine Hostages. The Uí Néill had two main dynastical branches these been the Northern and Southern Uí Néill. Each of which were divided into multiple kindreds (Cineál / O.Irish=cenél).

In the case of the Northern Uí Néill the two main kindres were the Cenél Chonaill (of Tír Chonaill eg. Donegal) and the Cenél nEoghain (of Tír Eoghain eg. Tyrone).

Anyways the Ó Néill family/surname are of the Cenél nEoghain, they are named after "Niall Glúndubh mac Aodha", king of Ireland 916-919AD. His grandson was Domnall ua Néill (ua = Old/middle Irish for Ó), the first to bear the surname.

Traditionally the Uí Néill had held the "high kingship" in period before the 11th century. The operated on a system of rotation. The kingship would rotate between North and South on each succession eg.
"Northern King" -> "Southern King" -> "Northern King" -> "Southern King" etc.

Originally you would have probably also see "rotation" within the dynasties as to which kindred held the kingship. However by later period in the North anyways the Cenél nEoghain had excluded the Cenél Chonaill form the kingship of Aileach (An Tuasiceart eg. The North).

How common is DF27 in Ireland and do you know if it is associated with any other old Irish clans?


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Dubhthach on February 11, 2013, 11:07:10 AM
To early to say tbh, not a huge amount of testing has occurred for DF27 in general. If we look at some of information from Busby study we see following for Ireland

Quote
West Ireland -- 67 samples
L21 = 73.1%
U106 = 4.5%
U152 = 1.5%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 7.5%
Total R1b-L11+: 86.6%

South Ireland -- 89 samples
L21 = 74.2%
U106 = 3.4%
U152 = 1.1%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 7.9%
Total R1b-L11+: 86.6%

East Ireland -- 149 samples
L21 = 71.1%
U106 = 6.7%
U152 = 4%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 7.4%
Total R1b-L11+: 89.2%

North Ireland -- 72 samples
L21 = 79.2%
U106 = 4.2%
U152 = 1.4%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 4.2%
Total R1b-L11+: 89%

The P312* (L21-/U152-) in the study ranges from 4.2% to 7.9%. Good probability that a chunk of this is DF27+ or to other new P312 subclades.

As is evident Ireland is dominated by R1b subclades of L11, on order of 86.6-89.2% of those sampled. L21 obviously been most dominate in that regards. Still it would be nicer if they used larger sample sizes (on order of 200-500 per group).

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: samIsaack on February 11, 2013, 11:11:55 AM
There's at least one carrying the "O'Neill Variety" signature who is DF27+ in the Ireland project. This is: 179484 (McCain), he is a GD of 6 @67 markers from Neal (68848), who the  Ireland project had sponsored for Z196 (came back Z196-)

 http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf (http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf)

When I mentioned about an NPE it's to do with idea that the Ó Néill family genealogy in the 12th century has bee contested for awhile. They had basically been deposed from the Kingship and suffer heavily losses in Battle. They then spent 140 years in the "wilderness" without access to Kingship of Northern Uí Néill. Some genealogists have historically challenged the number of generations reported for the Ó Néill main lineage during this period.

Note: Uí Néill doesn't equal the same as Ó Néill
Uí = plural descendants (pronunced like: ee)
Ó = grandson

In this case the Uí Néill were a large dynastical grouping claiming desent from "Niall Noígíallach" (Niall na Naoi nGiallach) eg. Niall of the Nine Hostages. The Uí Néill had two main dynastical branches these been the Northern and Southern Uí Néill. Each of which were divided into multiple kindreds (Cineál / O.Irish=cenél).

In the case of the Northern Uí Néill the two main kindres were the Cenél Chonaill (of Tír Chonaill eg. Donegal) and the Cenél nEoghain (of Tír Eoghain eg. Tyrone).

Anyways the Ó Néill family/surname are of the Cenél nEoghain, they are named after "Niall Glúndubh mac Aodha", king of Ireland 916-919AD. His grandson was Domnall ua Néill (ua = Old/middle Irish for Ó), the first to bear the surname.

Traditionally the Uí Néill had held the "high kingship" in period before the 11th century. The operated on a system of rotation. The kingship would rotate between North and South on each succession eg.
"Northern King" -> "Southern King" -> "Northern King" -> "Southern King" etc.

Originally you would have probably also see "rotation" within the dynasties as to which kindred held the kingship. However by later period in the North anyways the Cenél nEoghain had excluded the Cenél Chonaill form the kingship of Aileach (An Tuasiceart eg. The North).

How common is DF27 in Ireland and do you know if it is associated with any other old Irish clans?

Theres an L176.2 Keogh/Coffey if I'm not mistaken.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: samIsaack on February 11, 2013, 11:47:25 AM
Based on the results from the Ireland Y-dna project, most of the DF27 in Ireland seems to be of British extraction.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: chris1 on February 11, 2013, 11:50:28 AM
Thanks. This news could be relevant for the DF27* (Z195-, Z196-, L617-, Z225-, Z229-, L194- and L1232-) cluster named 'Rox2'. There do not seem to be too many Z196 negative DF27 clusters about yet and now 'O'Neill Variety' looks like it could be one. Similarities between DF27+/Z196- STR clusters might point to shared SNPs downstream of DF27.

I mentioned on here last July that there are a few STR similarities between some of the key off-modal markers for Rox2 and some of the O'Neill Variety in the 1-67 panels. They mis-match on others, however. There are now a couple of 111 marker 'O'Neill Variety' haplotypes on the FTDNA O'Neill project.

Fourteen Rox2 now have 111 marker tests that I know of and there are five extra key off-modal markers in the 68-111 panels. 111 markers makes a DF27 Rox2 match unambiguous.

One of the two 111 marker O'Neill Variety haplotypes matches just one of these five Rox2 key markers in the 68-111 panel, that being 532=14. The other off-modal markers do not match, so the similarity between the two clades now appears less close than an early estimate using Ken Nordtvedt's Generations7 suggested, Generations7 used only 67 marker haplotypes.

Anyway, one interesting thing is that both might share an as yet unknown SNP downstream of DF27, possibly from a common ancestor back in the 1st millennium BC. The two clades of course need to belong to the same DF27 subclade for MRCA estimates. More 111 marker results in the future should produce better MRCA estimates too. There seems no close connection between Rox2 and O'Neill Variety other than a potential shared DF27+/Z196- distant common ancestor. Hopefully things will become clearer with more testing in the future.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on February 11, 2013, 12:29:58 PM
Based on the results from the Ireland Y-dna project, most of the DF27 in Ireland seems to be of British extraction.

However, notice that despite the samplings of P312 unknown are all around 7%, the south Ireland and west Ireland sample appear to be highest.  Further away from the areas that would be typical of British settlement.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: samIsaack on February 11, 2013, 12:39:37 PM
Based on the results from the Ireland Y-dna project, most of the DF27 in Ireland seems to be of British extraction.

However, notice that despite the samplings of P312 unknown are all around 7%, the south Ireland and west Ireland sample appear to be highest.  Further away from the areas that would be typical of British settlement.

Thats true and there is a bit of P312, L21- people in the project too. However the extent of British/Protestant settlement in Ireland was rather substantial, more so than just the Ulster area.

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/protestants_1861_1991.html


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Dubhthach on February 11, 2013, 01:16:46 PM
I should point out though that due to large migration of "Scots-Irish" in the 18th century that they have a disproportionate percentage among the diaspora community in the modern US compared to what you could class as "Native Irish" who only started emigrating in mass to US from 1820's onwards (specifically 1840's onwards). As a result we see alot of member requests coming in from people who have ancestors who emmigrated to North America during 18th century. So there's somewhat of a sample bias going on.

I do think the lower P312* in the "North" category was interesting, given the fact that there was large scale population movement into the area in the last 400 years.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: samIsaack on February 11, 2013, 01:48:18 PM
I should point out though that due to large migration of "Scots-Irish" in the 18th century that they have a disproportionate percentage among the diaspora community in the modern US compared to what you could class as "Native Irish" who only started emigrating in mass to US from 1820's onwards (specifically 1840's onwards). As a result we see alot of member requests coming in from people who have ancestors who emmigrated to North America during 18th century. So there's somewhat of a sample bias going on.

I do think the lower P312* in the "North" category was interesting, given the fact that there was large scale population movement into the area in the last 400 years.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I'd say given the mass emigration of the Native Irish in the 1800's that their numbers are probably nearing the Scots-Irish now. Though you are absolutely correct about the Scotch-Irish creating a huge bias. You'd be hard-pressed to find an American who doesn't have at least one line of ancestry from this region.

One of the main reasons for this bias is the mis-understanding that your average American makes when the phrase "Scotch-Irish" is mentioned. All they're really hearing is Irish. Couple that with the popularity of being Irish and you get alot of ignorance and confusion. There really should be a specific project for those of this background. Because as I'm going through the Irish y-dna project, I'm seeing many, many non-gaelic surnames. Or Scots-Gaelic as opposed to Irish-Gaelic.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: inver2b1 on February 11, 2013, 01:51:39 PM
There's at least one carrying the "O'Neill Variety" signature who is DF27+ in the Ireland project. This is: 179484 (McCain), he is a GD of 6 @67 markers from Neal (68848), who the  Ireland project had sponsored for Z196 (came back Z196-)

 http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf (http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf)

When I mentioned about an NPE it's to do with idea that the Ó Néill family genealogy in the 12th century has bee contested for awhile. They had basically been deposed from the Kingship and suffer heavily losses in Battle. They then spent 140 years in the "wilderness" without access to Kingship of Northern Uí Néill. Some genealogists have historically challenged the number of generations reported for the Ó Néill main lineage during this period.

Note: Uí Néill doesn't equal the same as Ó Néill
Uí = plural descendants (pronunced like: ee)
Ó = grandson

In this case the Uí Néill were a large dynastical grouping claiming desent from "Niall Noígíallach" (Niall na Naoi nGiallach) eg. Niall of the Nine Hostages. The Uí Néill had two main dynastical branches these been the Northern and Southern Uí Néill. Each of which were divided into multiple kindreds (Cineál / O.Irish=cenél).

In the case of the Northern Uí Néill the two main kindres were the Cenél Chonaill (of Tír Chonaill eg. Donegal) and the Cenél nEoghain (of Tír Eoghain eg. Tyrone).

Anyways the Ó Néill family/surname are of the Cenél nEoghain, they are named after "Niall Glúndubh mac Aodha", king of Ireland 916-919AD. His grandson was Domnall ua Néill (ua = Old/middle Irish for Ó), the first to bear the surname.

Traditionally the Uí Néill had held the "high kingship" in period before the 11th century. The operated on a system of rotation. The kingship would rotate between North and South on each succession eg.
"Northern King" -> "Southern King" -> "Northern King" -> "Southern King" etc.

Originally you would have probably also see "rotation" within the dynasties as to which kindred held the kingship. However by later period in the North anyways the Cenél nEoghain had excluded the Cenél Chonaill form the kingship of Aileach (An Tuasiceart eg. The North).

Wasn't Ailleach in Inishowen an O'Neill kingdon? And is Inishowen and Tyrone named after the same person?


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Dubhthach on February 11, 2013, 02:47:42 PM
Aileach is one of the names for the "Northern Uí Néill" kingdom. The other name is "An Tuaisceart" (The North). At this stage the province/kingdom of Ulster had been reduced to basically Antrim/Down and parts of Armagh. The Uí Néill thus didn't regard themselves as been in Ulster.

The Cenél nEoghain were originally situated in Inishowen (The island of Eoghan), they then proceed to spread outwards conquoring Derry and Tyrone. When the O'Neill family was depossed from the Kingship they were supplanted by their near relatives the MacLochlainn who were based in Inishowen. They basically disapear for close on 140 years having relatively minor mentions, by time theire is an O'Neill challenger for kingship he is based in South-East Tyrone. After the MacLochlainn's are finally nearly annihialated the center of power in switches to this new locus. Thus by end of 13th century Inishowen was allowed to fall to hands of the O'Doherty's who were of course from the Cenél Chonaill.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: inver2b1 on February 11, 2013, 02:50:18 PM
Well there's definitely plenty of McLaughlins (and McDaids, they are a branch of the O'Dohertys aren't they) up there.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on February 11, 2013, 05:41:54 PM
The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to test with Dr. Wilson's firm in Britain.  FTDNA doesn't recognize DF27 and most of the branches underneath.  I think I might send them an email and ask some questions about what they know about DF27, and in my case the North/South cluster as it pertains to Britain.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: razyn on February 11, 2013, 06:23:35 PM
The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to test with Dr. Wilson's firm in Britain.  FTDNA doesn't recognize DF27 and most of the branches underneath.
That way lies madness.

FTDNA (if you mean Thos. Krahn and his lab folks) knows about DF27.  The automated system that prints certificates, draws maps with pushpins, etc. probably still doesn't.  On the other hand if you test with Scotland's DNA it will tell you less, while costing you more; and although Dr. Wilson himself seems quite competent as a scientist, his firm apparently carries a lot of baggage in the person of a spokesman who gets on TV and whatnot, talking about genetic processes that he doesn't appear to understand very well.

Note that I used two forms of "appear" in the previous sentence.  It's an inference one draws while reading the blogs of people trapped on that island who watch BBC TV.  It also appears that this spokesman is litigious, so far be it from me to name him.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on February 11, 2013, 09:04:21 PM
The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to test with Dr. Wilson's firm in Britain.  FTDNA doesn't recognize DF27 and most of the branches underneath.
That way lies madness.

FTDNA (if you mean Thos. Krahn and his lab folks) knows about DF27.  The automated system that prints certificates, draws maps with pushpins, etc. probably still doesn't.  On the other hand if you test with Scotland's DNA it will tell you less, while costing you more; and although Dr. Wilson himself seems quite competent as a scientist, his firm apparently carries a lot of baggage in the person of a spokesman who gets on TV and whatnot, talking about genetic processes that he doesn't appear to understand very well.

Note that I used two forms of "appear" in the previous sentence.  It's an inference one draws while reading the blogs of people trapped on that island who watch BBC TV.  It also appears that this spokesman is litigious, so far be it from me to name him.

I hear you.  They have a new book getting ready to come out about Britains DNA.  I'm starting to get impatient and irritated.  I've been told on another forum that DF27 on the continent is Iberian, but in isles it is probably Scandanavian.  I guess the 20% unknown P312 in the busby study in north wales must be Scandanavian.  And when I point out that you could use the north/ south cluster's subclades as a timeline to put them at specific places at specific times I'm told that we don't know that the though the basque carry m153 it might not have originated there because there was some m153 found in Norway.  It's funny though that when I point out that m222 has been found in Germany, then it must be German the same thought process as m153 doesn't apply.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 11, 2013, 10:42:41 PM

That way lies madness.
I hear you.  They have a new book getting ready to come out about Britains DNA.  I'm starting to get impatient and irritated.  I've been told on another forum that DF27 on the continent is Iberian, but in isles it is probably Scandanavian.  I guess the 20% unknown P312 in the busby study in north wales must be Scandanavian.  And when I point out that you could use the north/ south cluster's subclades as a timeline to put them at specific places at specific times I'm told that we don't know that the though the basque carry m153 it might not have originated there because there was some m153 found in Norway.  It's funny though that when I point out that m222 has been found in Germany, then it must be German the same thought process as m153 doesn't apply.

That is madness. I fail to see the logic why if M153 could originate from some place else besides Basque Country means that M222 has to originate in Germany. Who is saying that? Both SNPs can be found in multiple countries with people who think their families are of those countries'. I'm not sure how an appearance in any particular country is good evidence of origination there.

Given ancient DNA might not be available for where you need it, you might try evaluating both STR and related SNP diversity. The appearance of earlier branching brothers and cousins in a particular location might help on family determination, or at least the path back in time. Of course, all of that should be taken in context of historical information and archaeological information on the movements of people.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on February 11, 2013, 11:50:58 PM

That way lies madness.
I hear you.  They have a new book getting ready to come out about Britains DNA.  I'm starting to get impatient and irritated.  I've been told on another forum that DF27 on the continent is Iberian, but in isles it is probably Scandanavian.  I guess the 20% unknown P312 in the busby study in north wales must be Scandanavian.  And when I point out that you could use the north/ south cluster's subclades as a timeline to put them at specific places at specific times I'm told that we don't know that the though the basque carry m153 it might not have originated there because there was some m153 found in Norway.  It's funny though that when I point out that m222 has been found in Germany, then it must be German the same thought process as m153 doesn't apply.

That is madness. I fail to see the logic why if M153 could originate from some place else besides Basque Country means that M222 has to originate in Germany. Who is saying that? Both SNPs can be found in multiple countries with people who think their families are of those countries'. I'm not sure how an appearance in any particular country is good evidence of origination there.

Given ancient DNA might not be available for where you need it, you might try evaluating both STR and related SNP diversity. The appearance of earlier branching brothers and cousins in a particular location might help on family determination, or at least the path back in time. Of course, all of that should be taken in context of historical information and archaeological information on the movements of people.

Mikewww, let me try this differently.  From what I have read, the consensus for the origin of M222 is in Ireland, possibly with the Ui Niall.  The consensus for the origin of Irish type III is in Ireland and is associated with the O'Brians.  Even though these snp's are found outside of Ireland sporatically, the consensus is still an Irish origin.  Now, you have a consensus that m153 originated with the basque area of France and Spain.  The next snp upstream, Z214 is found in the same vicinity, and because there are a small, smattering of m153 outside the basque region, then there's a possibility M153 originated somewhere else?  Why doesn't, then that rule apply to M222 or Irish type III?  In other words, is there a double standard?


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: scotsman on February 12, 2013, 01:30:11 AM

This is my first post.  I have a question in regard to DF27.  With the name O'Neil could it be they have a connection to Scotland's Barra Hebredian MacNeil's who have a large number in their study with an L165 SNP Terminal Clade.  As the MacNeil Phylogenetic Tree is DF27/S250, S355/Z196, L176.2/S179.2, L165/S68 Terminal.  It was alway thought that the Barra MacNeils were of Neil of the Nine Hostages line however this was found inaccurate and just folklore when it was determined Neil of the Nine Hostages was a SNP M222.  (Also the alternate branching at L176.2 goes to SRY 2627.)

Dr Wilson had thought that the L165 had come from Scandinavia however the  bulk of L165 are in South Central England and the missing link to the migratory path from Iberia was that there were no L165 yet found in Ireland.  Maybe this is the link as Dr Wilson has been unable to show a nordic link?

It should also be noted that their are large groups of MacDonalds and MacLeods in the Hebredes that are also L165.


Scotsman 


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: samIsaack on February 12, 2013, 04:20:57 AM

That way lies madness.
I hear you.  They have a new book getting ready to come out about Britains DNA.  I'm starting to get impatient and irritated.  I've been told on another forum that DF27 on the continent is Iberian, but in isles it is probably Scandanavian.  I guess the 20% unknown P312 in the busby study in north wales must be Scandanavian.  And when I point out that you could use the north/ south cluster's subclades as a timeline to put them at specific places at specific times I'm told that we don't know that the though the basque carry m153 it might not have originated there because there was some m153 found in Norway.  It's funny though that when I point out that m222 has been found in Germany, then it must be German the same thought process as m153 doesn't apply.

That is madness. I fail to see the logic why if M153 could originate from some place else besides Basque Country means that M222 has to originate in Germany. Who is saying that? Both SNPs can be found in multiple countries with people who think their families are of those countries'. I'm not sure how an appearance in any particular country is good evidence of origination there.

Given ancient DNA might not be available for where you need it, you might try evaluating both STR and related SNP diversity. The appearance of earlier branching brothers and cousins in a particular location might help on family determination, or at least the path back in time. Of course, all of that should be taken in context of historical information and archaeological information on the movements of people.

No one was using that logic, the point is, that once an M153 was found outside of its usual frequency zone, it wasn't really even considered that maybe.. Just maybe, it didn't have to have a Basque origin. A couple of posts here and there mention a slight possibility, but that was it.. Well until this little discussion kicked it back up. I'm not saying you didn't, Mike, you were one of the few people who actually tried to discuss this possibility when the Old Norway study was leaked. The general consesus was that it wasn't really anything to look at and was probably the result of recent immigration.

Whereas when a few M222 were found outside of their usual frequency zone and the thought suddenly arises that "Hey! Maybe they had an origin in Germany and could be associated with the Halstatt culture?" Then of course there were and still are debates off and on about this.. with a few people upset that this clade may not be as "Irish" as once thought. In other words, it seemed to be given a much more thorough argument and consideration.

Billy brings up a great point regarding DF27 and how its viewed. It seems all other clades are usually open to interpratation( with the usual degree of a preferred association), but for some reason this group always falls back on the same old theories.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Dubhthach on February 12, 2013, 05:26:19 AM

That way lies madness.
I hear you.  They have a new book getting ready to come out about Britains DNA.  I'm starting to get impatient and irritated.  I've been told on another forum that DF27 on the continent is Iberian, but in isles it is probably Scandanavian.  I guess the 20% unknown P312 in the busby study in north wales must be Scandanavian.  And when I point out that you could use the north/ south cluster's subclades as a timeline to put them at specific places at specific times I'm told that we don't know that the though the basque carry m153 it might not have originated there because there was some m153 found in Norway.  It's funny though that when I point out that m222 has been found in Germany, then it must be German the same thought process as m153 doesn't apply.

That is madness. I fail to see the logic why if M153 could originate from some place else besides Basque Country means that M222 has to originate in Germany. Who is saying that? Both SNPs can be found in multiple countries with people who think their families are of those countries'. I'm not sure how an appearance in any particular country is good evidence of origination there.

Given ancient DNA might not be available for where you need it, you might try evaluating both STR and related SNP diversity. The appearance of earlier branching brothers and cousins in a particular location might help on family determination, or at least the path back in time. Of course, all of that should be taken in context of historical information and archaeological information on the movements of people.

Mikewww, let me try this differently.  From what I have read, the consensus for the origin of M222 is in Ireland, possibly with the Ui Niall.  The consensus for the origin of Irish type III is in Ireland and is associated with the O'Brians.  Even though these snp's are found outside of Ireland sporatically, the consensus is still an Irish origin.  Now, you have a consensus that m153 originated with the basque area of France and Spain.  The next snp upstream, Z214 is found in the same vicinity, and because there are a small, smattering of m153 outside the basque region, then there's a possibility M153 originated somewhere else?  Why doesn't, then that rule apply to M222 or Irish type III?  In other words, is there a double standard?

I don't think M222 arose in Ireland, it's older then the timeframe for Niall anyways. That and highest diversity is probably in South Scotland/North England. What's interesting is to follow the SNP trail. We see for example DF23+/M222- cluster in Wales for example.

If you read between the lines in the pseudo-history of course the ancestor of both the Uí Néill and wider Connachta led an invasion from Northern Britain.

eg. Tuathal Teachtmar arrives as a young man with an army 20 years after been force to flee in his mothers womb back to Alba (scotland but probably meaning Britain in this case). His mother supposedly been a daugther of a king of Alba as well as wife of a deposed High King.

Many have argued that what's been written in this bit of "fantasy" is a folk memory of movement from Northern Britain into Ireland.

As for Irish Type III, the general age for the cluster is on order of 1200-1300 years that and the names tied to it are generally very much tied to that of Dál gCais dynastical grouping. Which after all became important in late 10th century with Brian Boru becoming high king in 1002AD.

Either way people shouldn't be assigning nationality to Clades that are on order of 1500-2000 years ago. The concept of Nation State is very much one of the 19th century onwards.

Regarding the McNeill's and L176.2, McCain who is "O'Neill Variety" shows up as L176.2 -


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: chris1 on February 12, 2013, 06:16:28 AM
With the name O'Neil could it be they have a connection to Scotland's Barra Hebredian MacNeil's who have a large number in their study with an L165 SNP Terminal Clade. 
Hello Scotsman. According to Dubhtach the O'Neill Variety are Z196-, MacLeods and MacNeil (L165) are Z196+. The YDNA link between DF27+ Z196- subclades like O'Neill Variety and DF27+ Z196+ MacLeods and MacNeils would have to be a few thousand years ago.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on February 12, 2013, 12:25:40 PM
With the name O'Neil could it be they have a connection to Scotland's Barra Hebredian MacNeil's who have a large number in their study with an L165 SNP Terminal Clade.
Hello Scotsman. According to Dubhtach the O'Neill Variety are Z196-, MacLeods and MacNeil (L165) are Z196+. The YDNA link between DF27+ Z196- subclades like O'Neill Variety and DF27+ Z196+ MacLeods and MacNeils would have to be a few thousand years ago.

194727 Donald McDonald (m 1774, Knockando, Moray) Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
164691 Roger Terrill c. 1610 - 1682 Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
N60197 Roger Terrill, circa 1612 - 1682 England R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
65411 Angus MacNeil, b.c. 1780, Brevig, Barra, Scotland Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
99990 S68/L165+, earliest known ancestor: Sven Olofsson, Sweden R1b1a2  
40551 Thomas Greenwade USA Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b5b                          
220363 John McMillion, b. 1735/36, Virginia Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
46281 Donald McDonald b.c.1750 m.1785 Latheron Caithness Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
188925 John Ayton, c.1700-1754; New Buckenham, Norfolk England R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
163136 Thomas Ayton/Arton, c.1495 - aft. 1559; N. Yorks England R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
170048 John Brownson Sr.1550-1623 England R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
41571 Angus MacLeod, b.c.1745, Scotland, d. abt 1831 Sou Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
N9281   Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b                                                                            
213423 Norman McLeod b. 1809 Inverness, d. 1861 Fife Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
137480 Norman McLeod b. 1809 Inverness, d. 1861 Fife Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
44377 Asa Smeathers (Beall) Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  

These are the individuals listed under L165 in the P312 Project at FTDNA.  There is only one individual claiming Scandanavian origin.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 12, 2013, 06:14:23 PM
Now, you have a consensus that....   In other words, is there a double standard?

Webb,
I don't know what the real consensus among bloggers is, nor what the academic consensus, etc. You'd almost have to take surveys to figure out sentiment. I think of older prevailing views more as conventional wisdom. Perhaps we should say "who cares?" Well, unfortunately newbies pickup this stuff and tend to fall into the conventional wisdom and it takes a while to figure it out... so we do care.

Mikewww, let me try this differently.  From what I have read, the consensus for the origin of M222 is in Ireland, possibly with the Ui Niall.  

I actually am not one of those with the conventional wisdom on M222. I think what Paul D is saying makes a lot of sense.
I don't think M222 arose in Ireland, it's older then the timeframe for Niall anyways. That and highest diversity is probably in South Scotland/North England. What's interesting is to follow the SNP trail. We see for example DF23+/M222- cluster in Wales for example...
The proportion of M222 brothers, the DF23+ M222- guys, seems proportionally high in Wales.

The consensus for the origin of Irish type III is in Ireland and is associated with the O'Brians.  Even though these snp's are found outside of Ireland sporatically, the consensus is still an Irish origin.
It turns out Irish III is marked by an SNP called L226. What Paul is saying is true. L226 has a heavy concentration in Munster among people who think they are Dalcassian.
As for Irish Type III, the general age for the cluster is on order of 1200-1300 years that and the names tied to it are generally very much tied to that of Dál gCais dynastical grouping.
That doesn't mean that L226 had to originate there but it is a candidate area. There is an SNP right above L226, Z2534, so I've been looking for Z2534+ L226- people. There are a few, but the problem is L226's STR signature is so distinct it doesn't look like anyone is closely related to L226. I don't think it is a given that L226 has to be from Ireland. Certainly Britain is in the vicinity. I do get slightly higher STR variance for L226 in England versus Ireland but I don't think it significant enough to tell much.

Now, you have a consensus that m153 originated with the basque area of France and Spain.  The next snp upstream, Z214 is found in the same vicinity, and because there are a small, smattering of m153 outside the basque region, then there's a possibility M153 originated somewhere else?
My original point was really just that M153 might not be from Basque Country (in capital letters - the specific zone.)  I think there is a real chance it is from some place in France outside of the Basque Country. I say that just because M153's brothers and cousins in Z220 (part of the old North-South cluster) are so spread out. I think you've already looked at Z214+ M153-. I think that is a good thing to do. How widespread are the Z214+ M153- people? How many do we know of?

Did you say someone tracked down the M153+ person in the Old Norway? Do we know it is a recent migration?

To be clear, I certainly wouldn't rule out Basque Country as the origin for M153.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Dubhthach on February 13, 2013, 04:51:12 AM
At least three DF27+ results this morning in the Ireland project including Stewart (94023) who looks like O'Neill Variety on his matches.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: chris1 on February 13, 2013, 06:26:31 AM
Thanks Paul, yes 94023 has the same off-modal markers as other O'Neill Variety. Also, I see three of the thirteen DF27+ on the SNP page of your Ireland project at the moment are Rox2 matches. One states unknown origin and two are from Scotland.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on February 15, 2013, 01:19:06 PM
Thanks Paul, yes 94023 has the same off-modal markers as other O'Neill Variety. Also, I see three of the thirteen DF27+ on the SNP page of your Ireland project at the moment are Rox2 matches. One states unknown origin and two are from Scotland.

Chris, I tested for DF79 yesterday.  I believe there are a few DF27+Z196-, that have tested as well.  I will post somewhere in here when my results come back.  My terminal is Z220, but maybe depending on if I am positive or negative, we can see where the four new DF's might be placed.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 15, 2013, 03:08:33 PM

Now, you have a consensus that m153 originated with the basque area of France and Spain.  The next snp upstream, Z214 is found in the same vicinity, and because there are a small, smattering of m153 outside the basque region, then there's a possibility M153 originated somewhere else?

My original point was really just that M153 might not be from Basque Country (in capital letters - the specific zone.)  I think there is a real chance it is from some place in France outside of the Basque Country. I say that just because M153's brothers and cousins in Z220 (part of the old North-South cluster) are so spread out. I think you've already looked at Z214+ M153-. I think that is a good thing to do. How widespread are the Z214+ M153- people? How many do we know of?

Does anyone know the number and distribution of Z214+ M153- folks?


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on February 15, 2013, 05:40:48 PM

Now, you have a consensus that m153 originated with the basque area of France and Spain.  The next snp upstream, Z214 is found in the same vicinity, and because there are a small, smattering of m153 outside the basque region, then there's a possibility M153 originated somewhere else?

My original point was really just that M153 might not be from Basque Country (in capital letters - the specific zone.)  I think there is a real chance it is from some place in France outside of the Basque Country. I say that just because M153's brothers and cousins in Z220 (part of the old North-South cluster) are so spread out. I think you've already looked at Z214+ M153-. I think that is a good thing to do. How widespread are the Z214+ M153- people? How many do we know of?

Does anyone know the number and distribution of Z214+ M153- folks?

Jf. R1b-Z214 (Subclade of Z278)
N50965 Joseph Trinquier, b. c. 1670 Tarerach (Trahac), Fr France R1b1a2a1a1b
B1595 Juan Melendez Centeno 1867-1902 Puerto Rico Spain R1b1a2a1a1b  
178151 Francisco Carmona Lopez, 1670-1738, Marchena, Spai Spain R1b1a2a1a1b  
N34178 Juan Eusebio Robles, b. 1788, Fajardo, Puerto Rico Spain R1b1a2a1a1b  
N103224 Agustin Elarre (Hacia 1720) Navarre (Basque) Sp                                                  

Jg. R1b-M153 (subclade of Z214)
209822 Juan Cristobal Crespin, born c. 1800 Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b2  
159918 Francisco Quijano Y Jimenez, ~ 1874 Galicia,Spain Spain R1b1a2a1a1b2              
97776 Alexandre Sallaberry, 1831, Sames, France France R1b1a2a1a1b2                    
85359 Arnault Sallaberry (1606) Bidache, France France R1b1a2a1a1b2  
74765 Baerga, Puerto Rico Unknown Origin                                                                        
N66037 Miguel Bravo , b.1720 Leon, , Spain R1b1a2a1a1b2  
113915 Jose Monesterio y Sagastiechea Jaureguzar, b. 1690 Spain R1b1a2a1a1b2            
88532 Antonio Guerra, b.c. 1603, Llanes, Asturias, Spain Spain R1b1a2a1a1b2              
76019 Marcos de Aguirregoitia (Icaza) España,1600(Spain) Spain R1b1a2a1a1b2  

Mikewww, these are the current individuals in the P312 and Sublcades project.  I cut and pasted both Z214 and M153.  According to the DF27 Phylogenic Post on this site the age for Z278 is 625B.C and the age for M153 is 215A.D.  There is no age given for Z214, but you would have to assume it is somewhere inbetween the two.  The areas of the French participants are, I believe, on the opposite side of the Ebro River Valley.  This is why I was trying to start with M153, which is in a tight circle and expand outwards geographicaly and upward the phylogenic tree to get a handle on when Z220 could have been in these areas.  Z278 has 2 Brits, 1 German and a number of Spanish and French participants as well.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 15, 2013, 07:51:57 PM
I think DF27 in the isles is an interesting subject.  I presume the vast majority of P312XU152XL21XSRY2627 is DF27.  It must be another minor stream in isles history but its not discussed that much.  Whatever it origin the main concentration is SW Europe, to the south and west of the L21 world. What would be the best distribution map of this on a European scale?  I suppose any study which used the SNPs listed above and had a P312* category is close to a DF27 map.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: razyn on February 15, 2013, 08:14:31 PM
I think DF27 in the isles is an interesting subject.  I presume the vast majority of P312XU152XL21XSRY2627 is DF27.  It must be another minor stream in isles history but its not discussed that much.  Whatever it origin the main concentration is SW Europe, to the south and west of the L21 world. What would be the best distribution map of this on a European scale?  I suppose any study which used the SNPs listed above and had a P312* category is close to a DF27 map.

Why XSRY2627?  That's part of DF27.  And that "main concentration" idea is based on absence of evidence, not evidence of absence, elsewhere.  We have pretty good evidence for some of Iberia's DF27 (but not even France's, really) because that's who got tested for 1000 Genomes.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: chris1 on February 16, 2013, 07:41:37 AM
Thanks Paul, yes 94023 has the same off-modal markers as other O'Neill Variety. Also, I see three of the thirteen DF27+ on the SNP page of your Ireland project at the moment are Rox2 matches. One states unknown origin and two are from Scotland.

Chris, I tested for DF79 yesterday.  I believe there are a few DF27+Z196-, that have tested as well.  I will post somewhere in here when my results come back.  My terminal is Z220, but maybe depending on if I am positive or negative, we can see where the four new DF's might be placed.

Hello William, look forward to hearing the result. I'm trying to equate the many anonymous sounding 'code names' with related groups - luckily familiarity with them seems to kick in eventually. It seems at the moment (someone correct me if wrong) that no one knows where DF79, DF81 and DF84 are below DF27 yet. DF83 looks to be Z196- I think.

Here's hoping one or two of them, or some in the future, might be subclades as old as Z196, ie. Z196's DF27+ 'brothers' from a few thousand years ago. There are many such subclades under L21/DF13, found since 2008.

Being Z220, at least you know you are Z196+ and Z209+. DF27* Rox2 and others are Z196- and without a currently known large derived subclade under DF27. That rules out a large part of known DF27 (Z196) being recent relations. That is why I was interested to hear that O'Neill Variety are likely to be DF27+/Z196- too, the subject of this thread.  There's a chance they might share the same SNP downstream of DF27.

There don't seem to be many SNP explorers as we get into uncharted DF27 territory. Bob Dickinson, from our Rox2 cluster, has ordered all 4 of the latest ones available from FTDNA, he mentioned them after his Geno 2.0 test produced no new SNPs, they are:

DF79 - below DF27
DF81 - below DF27
DF83 - below DF27
DF84 - below DF27

Regarding the above tests, two people are DF27+/DF83+, Walden (kit 9893) and Noble (kit 235308). Noble is also Z196-. They are both also CTS6519+ (their subclade below DF83). Maybe DF83 is old.

I gather another DF27*, Ant Brickell (kit H1763), has ordered DF79, DF81, DF83 and DF84 too and is waiting for the results.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on February 16, 2013, 09:18:41 AM
Chris, I'm at the end of my run for the north/south cluster.  I keep a DNA slush fund for myself, so I don't mind testing for snp's.  Since I am 196+, then we should know where these four new ones fall depending on my results and others.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2013, 07:43:53 AM
Does anyone know anything about the "Dwyer/Ryan Group" (Ysearch C8WMT) from Tipperary and Limerick that has tested DF27+ Z196-?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults)

When I first saw the haplotype, I thought it looked like some kind of DF49, given the 390=25 and the 481=24.

There is a McGrath who traces his line to Cashel in County Tipperary (these places have more meaning for me now that I have been there and seen them) who matches the Dwyer/Ryan thing pretty closely (Ysearch 4AKVE).

Since DF27 outnumbers U106 and U152 in Ireland, at least judging from the Busby data, perhaps it, unlike them, did not arrive mostly with the English but is of more ancient provenance there.

This group in County Tipperary is interesting.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on April 10, 2013, 09:55:04 AM
Does anyone know anything about the "Dwyer/Ryan Group" (Ysearch C8WMT) from Tipperary and Limerick that has tested DF27+ Z196-?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults)

When I first saw the haplotype, I thought it looked like some kind of DF49, given the 390=25 and the 481=24.

There is a McGrath who traces his line to Cashel in County Tipperary (these places have more meaning for me now that I have been there and seen them) who matches the Dwyer/Ryan thing pretty closely (Ysearch 4AKVE).

Since DF27 outnumbers U106 and U152 in Ireland, at least judging from the Busby data, perhaps it, unlike them, did not arrive mostly with the English but is of more ancient provenance there.

This group in County Tipperary is interesting.

RM2, in that same cluster on the P312 group is also a Cannady and a Carroll.  I do not know if they have tested Z196 or not.  Carroll is claiming ancestry to Limerick.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2013, 11:21:11 AM
Does anyone know anything about the "Dwyer/Ryan Group" (Ysearch C8WMT) from Tipperary and Limerick that has tested DF27+ Z196-?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults)

When I first saw the haplotype, I thought it looked like some kind of DF49, given the 390=25 and the 481=24.

There is a McGrath who traces his line to Cashel in County Tipperary (these places have more meaning for me now that I have been there and seen them) who matches the Dwyer/Ryan thing pretty closely (Ysearch 4AKVE).

Since DF27 outnumbers U106 and U152 in Ireland, at least judging from the Busby data, perhaps it, unlike them, did not arrive mostly with the English but is of more ancient provenance there.

This group in County Tipperary is interesting.

RM2, in that same cluster on the P312 group is also a Cannady and a Carroll.  I do not know if they have tested Z196 or not.  Carroll is claiming ancestry to Limerick.

Yeah, it looks like a native group with more than one Gaelic surname involved.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2013, 11:38:56 AM
Does anyone know anything about the "Dwyer/Ryan Group" (Ysearch C8WMT) from Tipperary and Limerick that has tested DF27+ Z196-?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults)

When I first saw the haplotype, I thought it looked like some kind of DF49, given the 390=25 and the 481=24.

There is a McGrath who traces his line to Cashel in County Tipperary (these places have more meaning for me now that I have been there and seen them) who matches the Dwyer/Ryan thing pretty closely (Ysearch 4AKVE).

Since DF27 outnumbers U106 and U152 in Ireland, at least judging from the Busby data, perhaps it, unlike them, did not arrive mostly with the English but is of more ancient provenance there.

This group in County Tipperary is interesting.

RM2, in that same cluster on the P312 group is also a Cannady and a Carroll.  I do not know if they have tested Z196 or not.  Carroll is claiming ancestry to Limerick.

Yeah, it looks like a native group with more than one Gaelic surname involved.

I wonder what accounts for it: A really ancient group from Iberia? An old but more recent group from Gaul, perhaps refugees from the Roman conquest of Gaul?

Perhaps Paul knows some bit of ancient history from that area of Ireland that might hold some clues.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Dubhthach on April 10, 2013, 11:54:05 AM
Well especially when you consider the number of native Irish surnames that show up among DF27+ (and subclades). This would at least point to an early arrival (perhaps co-travelers with L21)

--
Ó DUBHUIDHIR—I—O Duvire, O Duire, O'Dwyer, Dwyer, Dwire, &c.; 'descendant of Dubhodhar' (black Odhar); also written Ó Duibhidhir, which see; the name of a Tipperary family, of Leinster origin, who were chiefs of Coill na manach, now the barony of Kilnamanagh, in the west of that county. Philip O'Dwyer and Owen O'Dwyer were exempted from pardon for life and estate in the Cromwellian Act of 1652. Some of the name held high rank in the service of France, Austria and Russia. The name is now common in all the south of Ireland. Ó Duibhidhir is also a Donegal name, but whether or not the family is a branch of that of Tipperary, I am unable to say.
--
--
Ó MAOILRIAGHAIN, Ó MAOILRIAIN—I—O Mulrigan, O Mulryan, O Mulrean, Mulryan, Mulroyan, Mulryne, Mulrine, Mulrain, O'Ryan, Ryan; 'descendant of Maolriain' (follower of Riaghan or Rian); the name of a family of Leinster origin who settled in the 13th or 14th century in Uaithne-tire and Uaithne-cliach, now the baronies of Owney, in Co. Tipperary, and Owneybeg, in the east of Co. Limerick, where they became very numerous and powerful. In 1610, William Ryan surrendered to the. king all his landed property and all his rights of or in the barony of Owney O Mulrian, and received them back by letters patent. The family property was, however, lost in the confiscations of the 17th century. There are many very respectable families of the name in Tipperary and Limerick, and the name itself is very common in these counties. It is to be distinguished from Ó Riain, which see.
--
Ó RIAGHAIN, Ó RIAIN—I—O Rian, O'Ryan, Ryan: 'descendant of Riaghan,' or 'Rian'; the name of a Carlow family who were lords of Uí Dróna, the present barony of Idrone, and are now numerous through Leinster; to be distinguished from Ó Maoilriain of Munster and Ó Ruaidhín of Connacht, which are both now incorrectly anglicised O'Ryan or Ryan.
--

McGrath in munster context is usually associated with the "Dál gCais" (O'Brien's et al, thence L226+)
--
Mag RAITH—IV—Magrath, Magragh, MacGrath, MacGragh, Megrath, Magraw, MacGraw, Megraw, MacGra, &c.; 'son of Mac Raith' (son of grace, or prosperity; a not uncommon Irish personal name); also written Mac Craith, Mag Craith, Mac Graith, Mac Raith, and Mag Ratha, which see; the name (1) of a Donegal family, the head of which was coarb of St. Daveog, or erenagh of Termon Daveog, now Termon Magrath, at Lough Derg, and resided at the Castle of Termon Magrath at the northern extremity of Lough Erne, about half a mile west of Pettigo; (2) of a Thomond family who were hereditary poets and chroniclers to the O'Briens; (3) of a Scottish family in Kintail (see Mac Raith), some of whom settled in the north of Ireland. The Magraths were also at one time an influential family in Co. Waterford; and there are, doubtless, many minor families of the name about which history is silent. The name is now very common all over Ireland.
--


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Dubhthach on April 10, 2013, 12:04:16 PM
Well historians have been talking for last century or so that some elements in Munster were quite later arrivals potentially from Gaul. For example this is often argued for the Eoghanacht (Irish Type II?) as well as for the Déise of Waterford.

A name found on an Ogham Stone in Waterford is: NETASEGAMONAS

It's been argued that this is a compound of a Gaulish god's name eg. Segomo (war god)

Think of it this way if you are sailing from Brittany the first part of Ireland you hit is the coast of Munster from Waterford west to Cork.

The names mentioned above some of them also show up in "Irish Type IV/Continetal" Cluster which also has lots of hits in Tippeary area. I believe it has it's own SNP under Z253 now.

What we thus could be seeing is an echo of movement in period 100BC-100AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nia_Segamain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segomo

Interesting of course is that some have argued that the Dál gCais were a branch of the Déisi who moved north and conquored what is now Co. Clare from the province of Connacht. This would have occurred after the decline of the "Uí Fiachrach Aidhne" overkingship in South Galway. (Uí Fiachrach descended from Fiachrae the half-brother of Niall). It is intersting that the Dál gCais seem to be Z253+ like Irish Type IV, but quite a different haplotype and obviously have their own snp in form of L226.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2013, 12:38:23 PM
Well historians have been talking for last century or so that some elements in Munster were quite later arrivals potentially from Gaul. For example this is often argued for the Eoghanacht (Irish Type II?) as well as for the Déise of Waterford.

A name found on an Ogham Stone in Waterford is: NETASEGAMONAS

It's been argued that this is a compound of a Gaulish god's name eg. Segomo (war god)

Think of it this way if you are sailing from Brittany the first part of Ireland you hit is the coast of Munster from Waterford west to Cork.

The names mentioned above some of them also show up in "Irish Type IV/Continetal" Cluster which also has lots of hits in Tippeary area. I believe it has it's own SNP under Z253 now.

What we thus could be seeing is an echo of movement in period 100BC-100AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nia_Segamain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segomo

Interesting of course is that some have argued that the Dál gCais were a branch of the Déisi who moved north and conquored what is now Co. Clare from the province of Connacht. This would have occurred after the decline of the "Uí Fiachrach Aidhne" overkingship in South Galway. (Uí Fiachrach descended from Fiachrae the half-brother of Niall). It is intersting that the Dál gCais seem to be Z253+ like Irish Type IV, but quite a different haplotype and obviously have their own snp in form of L226.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais

-Paul
(DF41+)


Very interesting!

I don't know the answer, but the possibility that this DF27+ Z196- group represents descent from Gaulish refugees from the Roman conquest of Gaul is intriguing.



Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on April 10, 2013, 01:09:25 PM
Well historians have been talking for last century or so that some elements in Munster were quite later arrivals potentially from Gaul. For example this is often argued for the Eoghanacht (Irish Type II?) as well as for the Déise of Waterford.

A name found on an Ogham Stone in Waterford is: NETASEGAMONAS

It's been argued that this is a compound of a Gaulish god's name eg. Segomo (war god)

Think of it this way if you are sailing from Brittany the first part of Ireland you hit is the coast of Munster from Waterford west to Cork.

The names mentioned above some of them also show up in "Irish Type IV/Continetal" Cluster which also has lots of hits in Tippeary area. I believe it has it's own SNP under Z253 now.

What we thus could be seeing is an echo of movement in period 100BC-100AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nia_Segamain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segomo

Interesting of course is that some have argued that the Dál gCais were a branch of the Déisi who moved north and conquored what is now Co. Clare from the province of Connacht. This would have occurred after the decline of the "Uí Fiachrach Aidhne" overkingship in South Galway. (Uí Fiachrach descended from Fiachrae the half-brother of Niall). It is intersting that the Dál gCais seem to be Z253+ like Irish Type IV, but quite a different haplotype and obviously have their own snp in form of L226.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais

-Paul
(DF41+)


Very interesting!

I don't know the answer, but the possibility that this DF27+ Z196- group represents descent from Gaulish refugees from the Roman conquest of Gaul is intriguing.



The Coriondi (Κοριονδοί) were a people of early Ireland, referred to in Ptolemy's 2nd century Geography as living in southern Leinster.[1] MacNeill identifies a later Irish group, the Coraind, in the Boyne valley, who may be the same people.[2] Other possibly related names include the Corcu Cuirnd,[2] Cuirennrige and Dál Cuirind in early medieval Ireland, and in Britain, the Corionototae, known from an inscription in Hexham, Northumberland, and Corinion, the Brythonic name for Cirencester, Gloucestershire.[1] The element *corio- also occurs in Gaulish personal and tribal names, usually taken to mean an army or troop of warriors [3]

The Cauci (Καῦκοι) were a people of early Ireland, uniquely documented in Ptolemy's 2nd-century Geography, which locates them roughly in the region of modern County Dublin and County Wicklow.[1] From the early 19th century, comparative linguists, notably Lorenz Diefenbach, identified the Cauci with the Germanic Chauci of the Low Countries and north-western Germany, a parallel already drawn by earlier antiquarian scholarship.[2] Proponents of this view also pointed to the fact that the Manapii (Μανάπιοι), who in Ptolemy's map border the Cauci to the south, likewise bear a name that is almost identical to that of another continental tribe, the Belgic Menapii in north-eastern Gaul. This correspondence appeared to testify to population movements between the two regions. The linguistic aspect of this hypothesis was most recently (1917) developed by Julius Pokorny,[3] although the Cauci-Chauci association is not universally accepted.[4] This early scholarship also drew attention to apparent parallels among Celtic or Celticized peoples of the Iberian peninsula, specifically a leader of the Lusitani named Kaukainos (Καυκαῖνος), and a city called Kauka (Καύκα) (modern Coca), inhabited by Kaukaioi (Καυκαῖοι), among the Vaccaei, a prominent Celtiberian people.[5] With regard to possible descendants of the Irish Cauci, Pokorny and Ó Briain[6] respectively favoured the obscure medieval septs of Uí Cuaich and Cuachraige, though in neither case has a connection been demonstrated.

Both of these were taken from Wiki.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: MikeMcG on April 10, 2013, 05:07:29 PM
This Irish DF27+ discussion is of interest to me because I recently received my DNA67 results (Feb 2013) and from my matches it appears I most probably will be DF27+ and perhaps negative for all the present known subclades.  I am in the McGrath project and also in the Carroll project where there is a Dwyer/Ryan sub category.  Peter, the admin of the Carroll project, has listed some of the DNA67 and limited SNP results for this Dwyer/Ryan group on the lower part of his web page,  http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm    I was originally going to test with Geno 2.0 in part to look for SNPs but since I understand Geno 2.0 does not include DF27 I may just wait for some updated version.  I have not yet decided whether or not to just test for DF27 alone since this is appears to be a large diverse European group and would not give me much more info beyond confirming that I am in fact DF27+

Mike


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: rms2 on April 10, 2013, 07:19:56 PM
This Irish DF27+ discussion is of interest to me because I recently received my DNA67 results (Feb 2013) and from my matches it appears I most probably will be DF27+ and perhaps negative for all the present known subclades.  I am in the McGrath project and also in the Carroll project where there is a Dwyer/Ryan sub category.  Peter, the admin of the Carroll project, has listed some of the DNA67 and limited SNP results for this Dwyer/Ryan group on the lower part of his web page,  http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm    I was originally going to test with Geno 2.0 in part to look for SNPs but since I understand Geno 2.0 does not include DF27 I may just wait for some updated version.  I have not yet decided whether or not to just test for DF27 alone since this is appears to be a large diverse European group and would not give me much more info beyond confirming that I am in fact DF27+

Mike

Hi, Mike! Glad you're here!

(I'm "Stevo" over at FTDNA's forum.)


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 10, 2013, 08:47:14 PM
This Irish DF27+ discussion is of interest to me because I recently received my DNA67 results (Feb 2013) and from my matches it appears I most probably will be DF27+ and perhaps negative for all the present known subclades.  I am in the McGrath project and also in the Carroll project where there is a Dwyer/Ryan sub category.  Peter, the admin of the Carroll project, has listed some of the DNA67 and limited SNP results for this Dwyer/Ryan group on the lower part of his web page,  http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm    I was originally going to test with Geno 2.0 in part to look for SNPs but since I understand Geno 2.0 does not include DF27 I may just wait for some updated version.  I have not yet decided whether or not to just test for DF27 alone since this is appears to be a large diverse European group and would not give me much more info beyond confirming that I am in fact DF27+

Mike

You should most definitely test for DF27. If you get a positive result, you can start negotiating the SNPs beneath DF27. The administrator of the R1b-P312 & Subclades Project (assuming you are a member- if not, you should join) is very knowledgeable about the structure of DF27 and is happy to steer people through the maze. If you chose to wait for an upgraded Geno project to resolve your status, you may have quite a wait.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: MikeMcG on April 11, 2013, 03:57:50 PM
My reasoning with Geno 2.0 vs DF27 testing is as follows:

I have not yet had any YDNA SNP tests.  FTDNA predicts I am YDNA M269+. Before I received my DNA67 results and based on other McGrath results I would have been willing to bet money I was P312+, L21+, and the question seemed to be whether I would be L226+ or M222+ . After getting my DNA67 results I seemed to have a better fit with the Dwyer/Ryan group (previously identified by Mike Walsh as p2521) and so now think it is more likely I am DF27.

The website http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm indicates that a total of 67 people have been found to have Dwyer/Ryan DNA. Some have been tested for SNP with the following results:

The P312 SNP test is positive for 13 members.
The DF27 SNP is positive for 9 members and therefore it is thought likely that all Dwyer/Ryans have the DF27 SNP.
L617 is negative for one
Z196 is negative for five.
L1231 is negative for one.
L86.2 is negative for two and positive for two with the surname Wilkinson.
Z225 is negative for one.
L881 has not been tested by a Dwyer/Ryan group member. 
One of the Wilkinsons participated in Geno 2.0, but no new SNPs were found.

At this point I do not know for sure if I am P312+ or even M269+ for that matter.  Geno 2.0 would at least resolve  P312, and L21 and some of its subclades vs L86.2 and some other subclades of DF27.  If I were P312+ and negative for everything below that it would increase the probability that I am DF27+. Also L86.2+ or positive for other DF27 subclades would confirm DF27+. There is additional info other than YDNA to be gained from Geno 2.0 that I would be interested in, but I have also been reading there are some problems with the present chip and there is speculation it may be upgraded, as a minimum, to fix any problems. This causes me to want to wait anyway. In the meanwhile I have not yet started to look in any detail at my FTDNA Family Finder or mtDNA results so I have other things to keep me busy.
My thoughts are if there is an upgrade to Geno 2 with in the next year or so then I will probably test with that.  If at that time Geno 2 still does not  include DF27 and I am P213+ (and negative to every thing below P213) then I will test for DF27 unless some other more likely “Dwyer/Ryan” group SNP is discovered and available in the meantime.
As a side comment, as someone very new to DNA I find the shorthand YDNA SNP nomenclature convenient but very difficult to follow as to where they fit in.  Although there were differences between ISOGG and YCC2010 in the “R1b1a2a1a1b” (for example) form of nomenclature that initially confused me, at least they both seemed to be a logical progression.  I presume the long form was abandoned in part because of the difficulties in fitting in new intermediate SNPs but the present shorthand scheme seems me to have no logic in terms of a YDNA tree and nor in how these SNPs fit together or have evolved.  It will be interesting to see how the shorthand nomenclature is used in migration maps if at all.     
Thanks for your comments
Mike 


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on April 11, 2013, 04:32:29 PM
My reasoning with Geno 2.0 vs DF27 testing is as follows:

I have not yet had any YDNA SNP tests.  FTDNA predicts I am YDNA M269+. Before I received my DNA67 results and based on other McGrath results I would have been willing to bet money I was P312+, L21+, and the question seemed to be whether I would be L226+ or M222+ . After getting my DNA67 results I seemed to have a better fit with the Dwyer/Ryan group (previously identified by Mike Walsh as p2521) and so now think it is more likely I am DF27.

The website http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm indicates that a total of 67 people have been found to have Dwyer/Ryan DNA. Some have been tested for SNP with the following results:

The P312 SNP test is positive for 13 members.
The DF27 SNP is positive for 9 members and therefore it is thought likely that all Dwyer/Ryans have the DF27 SNP.
L617 is negative for one
Z196 is negative for five.
L1231 is negative for one.
L86.2 is negative for two and positive for two with the surname Wilkinson.
Z225 is negative for one.
L881 has not been tested by a Dwyer/Ryan group member. 
One of the Wilkinsons participated in Geno 2.0, but no new SNPs were found.

At this point I do not know for sure if I am P312+ or even M269+ for that matter.  Geno 2.0 would at least resolve  P312, and L21 and some of its subclades vs L86.2 and some other subclades of DF27.  If I were P312+ and negative for everything below that it would increase the probability that I am DF27+. Also L86.2+ or positive for other DF27 subclades would confirm DF27+. There is additional info other than YDNA to be gained from Geno 2.0 that I would be interested in, but I have also been reading there are some problems with the present chip and there is speculation it may be upgraded, as a minimum, to fix any problems. This causes me to want to wait anyway. In the meanwhile I have not yet started to look in any detail at my FTDNA Family Finder or mtDNA results so I have other things to keep me busy.
My thoughts are if there is an upgrade to Geno 2 with in the next year or so then I will probably test with that.  If at that time Geno 2 still does not  include DF27 and I am P213+ (and negative to every thing below P213) then I will test for DF27 unless some other more likely “Dwyer/Ryan” group SNP is discovered and available in the meantime.
As a side comment, as someone very new to DNA I find the shorthand YDNA SNP nomenclature convenient but very difficult to follow as to where they fit in.  Although there were differences between ISOGG and YCC2010 in the “R1b1a2a1a1b” (for example) form of nomenclature that initially confused me, at least they both seemed to be a logical progression.  I presume the long form was abandoned in part because of the difficulties in fitting in new intermediate SNPs but the present shorthand scheme seems me to have no logic in terms of a YDNA tree and nor in how these SNPs fit together or have evolved.  It will be interesting to see how the shorthand nomenclature is used in migration maps if at all.     
Thanks for your comments
Mike 

Keep in mind that though Geno does not test for DF27 in particular, it does test for a number of downstream SNP's of DF27.  However, if you end up being Z196-, and Geno does not test for DF27 you might be left with just P312.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: rms2 on April 11, 2013, 08:36:05 PM
You also get some mtDNA and autosomal testing with the Geno 2.0.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 11, 2013, 09:16:20 PM

 Geno 2.0 does not even test for P312. My terminal SNP with them is P310.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on April 11, 2013, 09:25:18 PM

 Geno 2.0 does not even test for P312. My terminal SNP with them is P310.

What???  That's rediculous. 


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 11, 2013, 09:37:07 PM

 Geno 2.0 does not even test for P312. My terminal SNP with them is P310.

What???  That's rediculous. 

It may be ridiculous, but it is in fact true.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: MikeMcG on April 11, 2013, 10:04:28 PM
Goldenhind – Thanks. I had previously used https://dl.dropbox.com/s/38oiefqdov6kwbo/ISOGG_SNP_Index_Geno_2.0.xls?dl=1 to find if  DF27 and its subclades were in Geno 2.0 because I had heard that DF27 was not included but some of its subclades were.  I have to admit I assumed that important SNPs like M269 and P312 were included,  but it appears at least from this list indicates they are not.  All the more reason to wait on Geno 2.0.

Mike


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Webb on April 11, 2013, 10:07:11 PM

 Geno 2.0 does not even test for P312. My terminal SNP with them is P310.

What???  That's rediculous. 

It may be ridiculous, but it is in fact true.

I am assuming, then, that you are true P312**?


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 12, 2013, 02:11:05 PM

 Geno 2.0 does not even test for P312. My terminal SNP with them is P310.

What???  That's rediculous. 

It may be ridiculous, but it is in fact true.

I am assuming, then, that you are true P312**?

Correct.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: OConnor on April 14, 2013, 07:33:02 AM
Surname acquisition and use became popular after the year 1200, did this also apply to Ireland?

If so there must be some mistakes when attempting to match ancient people with surnames and snp's found today.


  


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Dubhthach on April 14, 2013, 08:00:48 AM
Surname acquisition and use became popular after the year 1200, did this also apply to Ireland?

If so there must be some mistakes when attempting to match ancient people with surnames and snp's


  

The most common surnames in Ireland were generally adopted in the 10th and 11th century. We tend to have oldest continously used surnames in Europe as a result. 

However surnames in Ireland are generally linked to Dynastical groupings which can hus be used to draw a picture back to at least the 7th century, this somewhat reflects the redrawing of irish proto-history in the Early Christian period and the shift to a dynastical/lineage based society from what would have been "tribal" in the pre-christian period.

A good example of course linguistically of this is the obseletion of term "Moccu" which was specifically tied to menaing "member of a tribe"

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: MikeMcG on April 21, 2013, 05:39:48 PM
I checked my YDNA67 against some of the Modals listed by Mikewww in R1b Modals in Ysearch and the C8WMT Dwyer/Ryan  Group which I am close to with the following results:

UserID______GD____ Last Name Origin
4AKVE______00____ McGrath Cashel, Tipperary, Ireland 
C8WMT_____03____ Dwyer/Ryan Tipperary and Limerick, Ireland  R1b1a2a1a1b* 
2YYB6______13____ R1b-L11* (S127*) Paragroup Modal*
6JCVN______13____ R1b-L2 (S139) and all Subclades Modal
QM4ES______13____ R1b-U152 (S28) and all Subclades Modal*
XQJ7H______14____ R1b-P312 (S116) and all Subclades Modal*
K9VGV_____16____ R1b-L21 (S145) and all Subclades Modal*
53ZBP______16____ R1b-DF27 and all Subclades Modal*
N5PA5______18____ R1b-U106 (S21) and all Subclades Modal*

Although everyone in the Dwyer/Ryan Group who has tested is DF27+ and negative for most of its subclades it seems there is a substantial variation with the  R1b-DF27 and all Subclades Modal.  When I get time I will go back and check some other Modals.

Mike


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: rms2 on April 22, 2013, 03:59:45 AM
Have you ordered the DF27 test yet, Mike? That would settle the issue of your possible relationship to the Dwyer/Ryan group at least.


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: Mike Walsh on April 22, 2013, 09:29:58 AM
I checked my YDNA67 against some of the Modals listed by Mikewww in R1b Modals in Ysearch and the C8WMT Dwyer/Ryan  Group which I am close to with the following results:

UserID______GD____ Last Name Origin
4AKVE______00____ McGrath Cashel, Tipperary, Ireland 
C8WMT_____03____ Dwyer/Ryan Tipperary and Limerick, Ireland  R1b1a2a1a1b* 
2YYB6______13____ R1b-L11* (S127*) Paragroup Modal*
6JCVN______13____ R1b-L2 (S139) and all Subclades Modal
QM4ES______13____ R1b-U152 (S28) and all Subclades Modal*
XQJ7H______14____ R1b-P312 (S116) and all Subclades Modal*
K9VGV_____16____ R1b-L21 (S145) and all Subclades Modal*
53ZBP______16____ R1b-DF27 and all Subclades Modal*
N5PA5______18____ R1b-U106 (S21) and all Subclades Modal*

Although everyone in the Dwyer/Ryan Group who has tested is DF27+ and negative for most of its subclades it seems there is a substantial variation with the  R1b-DF27 and all Subclades Modal.  When I get time I will go back and check some other Modals.

Mike

Mike, I wouldn't make too much of your GDs from those modals. GDs are just rough tools and there are a lot of crossing (converging) branches within R1b. That is why SNP testing is very important for R1b people.

I'm not familiar with the Dwyer/Ryan Group but if your GD is that close and they have some DF27+ people, that is as good as anything to go on for SNP test planning.  Can I find these people in a particular FTDNA project?


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: chris1 on April 22, 2013, 11:04:04 AM
I've had a look at the haplotypes and Mike (266845 McGrath) matches all the seven Dwyer/Ryan group's key, shared off-modal markers over 67 markers: 390=25 (modal 24), 389ii=16 (17), 456=15 (16),  CDYa=33 (36), 534=14 (15), 444=24 (22), 481=21 (20). I think it's likely 266845 McGrath will be DF27+, like the others in the Dwyer/Ryan group.

172132 Francis Wilkinson b. 1763 Stockton-on-Tees, England matches 5 of those 7 key markers and is P312+, DF27+,  Z196-, L86.2+. However, the rest of the Dwyer/Ryan cluster appear to be turning up L86.2 negative, of those who tested for it.

http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/message/4521?o=1&d=-1


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: MikeMcG on April 22, 2013, 12:04:47 PM
Steve

The brief answer with respect to your question on the DF27 test is not yet. 

As you may remember from other posts I had originally planned to take the GENO 2.0 as a general SNP/clade test but also to have other information I might get to supplement or confirm results of my FTDNA “Complete Genome” test.   Even when I found out it would not confirm (although might eliminate) my being DF27* I was still leaning in this direction until someone pointed out GENO 2.0 only told him he was P310*.  As you probably know there is speculation that there will be an updated GENO (2.1?) and I am now willing to wait on news of that.  I will probably order DF37 within this year  if there is no further news of an updated GENO or if a better choice of an SNP test is not available.

Mike


Title: Re: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?
Post by: MikeMcG on April 22, 2013, 02:04:42 PM

Mike, I wouldn't make too much of your GDs from those modals. GDs are just rough tools and there are a lot of crossing (converging) branches within R1b. That is why SNP testing is very important for R1b people.

I'm not familiar with the Dwyer/Ryan Group but if your GD is that close and they have some DF27+ people, that is as good as anything to go on for SNP test planning.  Can I find these people in a particular FTDNA project?


Mike

 I am very new to DNA having only received my first results DNA67 about 2 months ago.  Initially I was trying to make sense that I had only one McGrath match out of more than 1,400 matches at DNA12 and none at DNA67.  My closest match (GD of 2) at DNA67 was someone with a Ray surname.  Also showing up as matches (GD >2) were many of the individuals in this Dwyer/Ryan Group.

I realize that these Modals are very generalized, heavily influenced by the individuals whose data is available and have to be used with caution.  I presume they are more accurate for terminal, or for a smaller geographic SNP.  In any case you and others who spend the time and effort to create these modal are certainly appreciated.  My post certainly was not intended to be a criticism but more to elicit comments.

I presume your DF27 Modal is heavily influenced by Z196 and other known subclades rather than “true” DF27* individuals (DF27+ and negative for its known subclades)?  Do you (or others) think I can draw the conclusion that the Southern Irish DF27+,  as defined by the Ryan/Dwyer Group modal, apparently separated from say the  rest of DF27 + and the rest of its subclades (other than L86.2) a long time ago, perhaps thousands of years ago; and is probably not the result of any Spanish Armada  sailors shipwrecked in 1588 AD on the southern Irish coast?  None of my FTDNA or Ysearch DNA67 matches within maximum allowed steps/GD appear to have Spanish surnames.
 
In addition to my surname project, I also joined the FTDNA Carroll project where Peter Biggins has been tracking the Dwyer/Ryan Group (AKA p2521) but some of these indivuals are also included in other projects such as the Ryan Project.  Peter has a summary on his website http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm
 
Mike