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Title: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: rms2 on January 10, 2013, 10:08:29 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Irish-J-P-Mallory/dp/0500051755/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357813415&sr=1-1&keywords=origins+of+the+irish (http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Irish-J-P-Mallory/dp/0500051755/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357813415&sr=1-1&keywords=origins+of+the+irish)

Dr. Mallory has a new book out called The Origins of the Irish, which is supposed to include info from dna research.

Heard about it from alantrowelhands.



Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: OConnor on January 11, 2013, 06:52:09 AM
I tried to order it.

 
 This title has not yet been released.
You may pre-order it now and we will deliver it to you when it arrives.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: inver2b1 on January 11, 2013, 08:07:23 AM
I wonder how up to date the DNA research is.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Webb on January 11, 2013, 10:07:10 AM
I'm predicting that they will determine that most of the male Irish lineage is L21.  Sorry, joke, couldn't help it.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Newragh on January 11, 2013, 06:20:52 PM
I pre-ordered it:
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500051755/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00)
Delivery Estimate: Wednesday April 3, 2013
The Origins of the Irish The Origins of the Irish
J. P. Mallory


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on January 11, 2013, 06:55:59 PM
I'm predicting that they will determine that most of the male Irish lineage is L21.  Sorry, joke, couldn't help it.

That's probably dead on, unfortunately.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: rms2 on January 11, 2013, 08:43:40 PM
I'm predicting that they will determine that most of the male Irish lineage is L21.  Sorry, joke, couldn't help it.

I expect that's right, but it's what Mallory says about how it got to Ireland that interests me.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 12, 2013, 12:23:17 AM
I understand Jean M showed him her book.  If I am right on that then he should have a very up to date understanding of DNA evidence and not come out with ice age refugia stuff.  However, I doubt he will do more than cite some recent studies etc and I cant imagine he will have new info.  He might give an opinion on interpretation.  I would expect him (and most archaeologists) to be a little troubled with the way R1b and beaker are now linked by some as traditionally this has not been seen as a particularly strong or migratory culture in Ireland.  I would have a hunch he might lean towards first farmers in Ireland bringing R1b if he makes any comment at all.  I also understand he isnt a fan of Celtic being spoken until late in the Bronze Age (say 1000BC give or take) but I am not sure what his latest view is on this. It wont be the last word (there never will be) on the subject but his knowledge as an archaeologist, linguist, anthropologist etc is bordering on unique in this field so his opinions need to be taken seriously indeed.     


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 12, 2013, 12:07:43 PM
Amazon as they have dispatched my copy so should have in next couple of days


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on January 12, 2013, 01:25:43 PM
I understand Jean M showed him her book.    

I also saw the genetic section of his forthcoming book on the Irish before final stage. Since he not a geneticist, of course he is reliant on what geneticists have published. It is no use expecting ancient DNA to be pulled out of the bag or any amazing new revelations. The impression I got though was of a highly readable presentation and his usual sceptical intelligence being brought to bear on all material. I expect this book to fly off the shelves.  


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Arch Y. on January 12, 2013, 09:09:58 PM
I wonder how up to date the DNA research is.

Always a good question. I've always liked Mallory's book on the Indo-Europeans, I just hope he didn't fall into the same trap as Cunliffe did.

Arch


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Autochthon on January 13, 2013, 06:27:25 AM
Amazon as they have dispatched my copy so should have in next couple of days

It seems it isn't available for despatch with Amazon UK until 21st January


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: seferhabahir on January 13, 2013, 12:04:36 PM
Amazon as they have dispatched my copy so should have in next couple of days

It seems it isn't available for despatch with Amazon UK until 21st January

Can U.S. Amazon customers order through Amazon UK or are we stuck with our US accounts and later shipping?


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on January 13, 2013, 12:59:53 PM
I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Meatallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Hibernia est omnis divisa in partes tres  :)


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: GoldenHind on January 13, 2013, 04:57:17 PM
Amazon as they have dispatched my copy so should have in next couple of days

It seems it isn't available for despatch with Amazon UK until 21st January

Can U.S. Amazon customers order through Amazon UK or are we stuck with our US accounts and later shipping?

Customers from the US can order through Amazon UK, but will have to pay extra postage.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Newragh on January 13, 2013, 07:32:59 PM
I can't post images here, so here is a link to a post that I made on Eupedia.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26211-The-founding-and-migration-of-I2a2b?p=365153&viewfull=1#post365153 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26211-The-founding-and-migration-of-I2a2b?p=365153&viewfull=1#post365153).

The point of it was that wherever the peoples of Ireland originated on the Continent, it seems that they had a preference to enter Ireland from northern Britain, Galloway I suppose.

The Mesolithic, all four Neolithic and the LaTene artifacts are generally found in a line from the Shannon to the Boyne.

Only Bell Beaker artifacts are evenly spread. Even Saint Patrick worked in the La Tene area.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 13, 2013, 08:10:40 PM
Amazon as they have dispatched my copy so should have in next couple of days

It seems it isn't available for despatch with Amazon UK until 21st January

I was initially told that then a day later got an email saying it could be dispatched sooner than thought and I got a final email a couple of days ago saying it was dispatched.  I probably would have it in my hands now if I hadnt gone for the free but slower option. 


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 13, 2013, 08:17:02 PM
I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Meatallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Hibernia est omnis divisa in partes tres  :)

Miles - I think I would agree.  I think the Autosomal DNA is largely the first two.  The yDNA probably relates mainly to the third but I dont think there is quite enough evidence to 100% rule out the second being the big one given Ireland was only settled by farmers about 3800BC and given the uncertainty about variance dating.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Dubhthach on January 14, 2013, 05:53:19 AM
It's interesting looking at stuff like Dodecad "Globe 13" calculator with regards to autosomal composition of Irish population.

Dienekes has 17 Irish participants in his "Irish_D" group. The breakdown of three major components is the following:
  • North_European:  59.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.7%
  • West_Asian:  6.2%

That adds up to 99%, the remaining 1 percentage consists of 0.6% South_Asian and 0.4% "Amerindian". Some of that could be spurious.

Of course what's interesting is that the French_Basque shows up as 0.2% West_Asian, compared to 7.4% for French_D and 5.1% for Spanish_D -- seperate "Spaniards" group was 7.1% West_Asian.

I myself show up with following components in my autosomal.

  • North_European:  54.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.5%
  • West_Asian:  9.4%
  • South_Asian: 2.2%
  • Amerindian: 0.9%


"North_European" looks likes it's probably the mesolithic component in Ireland and across Northern Europe. "Mediterranean" is probably showing the arrival of argiculture whereas "West Asian" is either connected to metal or more specifically Indo-Europeans (the lack of it among Basques is interesting in this regard)

Awh well until we get some ancient DNA from Ireland it's gonna be a guessing game.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Dubhthach on January 14, 2013, 07:51:38 AM
I've placed an order for this, according to Amazon the delivery estimate is: 24 Jan 2013 - 30 Jan 2013. €22.84 euro in total including delivery (about a third of price from UK -> Ireland)

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on January 14, 2013, 09:44:40 PM
It's interesting looking at stuff like Dodecad "Globe 13" calculator with regards to autosomal composition of Irish population.

Dienekes has 17 Irish participants in his "Irish_D" group. The breakdown of three major components is the following:
  • North_European:  59.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.7%
  • West_Asian:  6.2%

That adds up to 99%, the remaining 1 percentage consists of 0.6% South_Asian and 0.4% "Amerindian". Some of that could be spurious.

Of course what's interesting is that the French_Basque shows up as 0.2% West_Asian, compared to 7.4% for French_D and 5.1% for Spanish_D -- seperate "Spaniards" group was 7.1% West_Asian.

I myself show up with following components in my autosomal.

  • North_European:  54.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.5%
  • West_Asian:  9.4%
  • South_Asian: 2.2%
  • Amerindian: 0.9%


"North_European" looks likes it's probably the mesolithic component in Ireland and across Northern Europe. "Mediterranean" is probably showing the arrival of argiculture whereas "West Asian" is either connected to metal or more specifically Indo-Europeans (the lack of it among Basques is interesting in this regard)

Awh well until we get some ancient DNA from Ireland it's gonna be a guessing game.

-Paul
(DF41+)


I'm not all Irish (25%) French-Canadian, but I have a higher West Asian score than average for Irish or French. On Eurogenes, there is one woman from Leinster who often has West Asian scores similar to mine. I often search results for similar scores in Western Europe and it seems that a few in the Netherlands, Cornwall and Southern Germany had high scores. It seems to me that the West Asian score is Danubian.

I think a lot of Hg G came to Western Europe through that route, and I believe that Hg G also has a vacant spot around the Basque country.

I think maybe the West Asian score represents Neolithic Farmers by way of the Danube.

Kehoe (DF23+)


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on January 15, 2013, 01:21:28 AM
rms2 (and Alan), thanks for the heads up. I ordered it today. Amazon.com quoted April delivery and Amazon.co.uk quoted January. Pity it's not available on Kindle. I suppose he will defend the Steppes model for PIE, which is fine as he is one of the leading proponents. I enjoy both his and Renfrew's debate on the subject.  It will be interesting to see how he describes the expansion of R1b (out of Anatolia, M269 ?) and the meeting of R1b and R1a PIE ( in the Balkens, L23 ?) and the expansion of Bell Beakers (Iberia L11, P312 ?). I hope he and other authors have anticipated future updates in electronic format eg Kindle or online in order to quickly integrate new results such as Geno 2.0 and BEAN.

My Ancestry 2.0 results were close to the reference population for UK and Irish (I guess Irish).

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764358676/

I get better definition when I use good old Halpogroup analysis for Y and mtDNA which shows the majority of my Relative Finder matches clustering around L21 and H1 and their defining mutations.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764489855/
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764489859/

Geno 2.0 is still incredibly slow in processing so no new results to report there although I expect to find myself firmly in the DF21 (Three Collas) cluster, hopefully with some new CTS SNPs.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Mark Jost on January 15, 2013, 01:32:14 AM
A while back I sent Doug McDonald my half maternal brothers U106 23andme data and he said, 
"Extremely aggressively Belgian in my new program ... never seen one like it! Yet the
 S. Asian in the above is puzzling, as the new program does not see it.
 
It does seem possible to fit it as 80% Orkney 20% Jewish, which of course
 average Belgium.


Europe            97.9%
 Oceania            0.4%
 America            0.9%
 Africa             0.2%
 E. Asia            0.0%
 
Europe            89.5%
 S. Asia           12.1%
 Oceania           -0.2%
 America            0.4%
 Africa            -0.3%
 E. Asia           -1.9%
 
Europe            85.1%
 Mideast            6.3%
 S. Asia           11.0%
 Oceania           -0.2%
 America            0.5%
 Africa            -1.2%
 E. Asia           -1.9%
 
So maybe the West Asian is similar.

MJost


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Dubhthach on January 15, 2013, 05:25:46 AM
It's interesting looking at stuff like Dodecad "Globe 13" calculator with regards to autosomal composition of Irish population.

Dienekes has 17 Irish participants in his "Irish_D" group. The breakdown of three major components is the following:
  • North_European:  59.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.7%
  • West_Asian:  6.2%

That adds up to 99%, the remaining 1 percentage consists of 0.6% South_Asian and 0.4% "Amerindian". Some of that could be spurious.

Of course what's interesting is that the French_Basque shows up as 0.2% West_Asian, compared to 7.4% for French_D and 5.1% for Spanish_D -- seperate "Spaniards" group was 7.1% West_Asian.

I myself show up with following components in my autosomal.

  • North_European:  54.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.5%
  • West_Asian:  9.4%
  • South_Asian: 2.2%
  • Amerindian: 0.9%


"North_European" looks likes it's probably the mesolithic component in Ireland and across Northern Europe. "Mediterranean" is probably showing the arrival of argiculture whereas "West Asian" is either connected to metal or more specifically Indo-Europeans (the lack of it among Basques is interesting in this regard)

Awh well until we get some ancient DNA from Ireland it's gonna be a guessing game.

-Paul
(DF41+)


I'm not all Irish (25%) French-Canadian, but I have a higher West Asian score than average for Irish or French. On Eurogenes, there is one woman from Leinster who often has West Asian scores similar to mine. I often search results for similar scores in Western Europe and it seems that a few in the Netherlands, Cornwall and Southern Germany had high scores. It seems to me that the West Asian score is Danubian.

I think a lot of Hg G came to Western Europe through that route, and I believe that Hg G also has a vacant spot around the Basque country.

I think maybe the West Asian score represents Neolithic Farmers by way of the Danube.

Kehoe (DF23+)

Miles,

I'll need to dig into Dienekes posts but I believe he ran both the iceman (Ötzi) and the scandinavian neolithic + mesolithic and they all came up as 0% West-Asian. Ötzi had next to no "West Asian" component which in European populations is only seen in Sardinians and Basques. On a plot the sardianians actually plotted in middle between Ötzi and other Europeans (no doubt as they have admixture over last couple thousand years from mainland Europe).

Personally my feeling is that Basque is either a neolithic or Copper age language, after all it contains native words for metals (not borrowed from Indo-European), given their high levels of "Southern European" and connections showing to Sardianians it's fairly obvious that they aren't some sort of mesolithic "relic population"

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on January 16, 2013, 08:05:02 AM
Chapter 8 (28 pages) Blood, Skulls and Genes deals with the DNA evidence of Origins of the Irish. There is a helpful 13 page preview on Amazon.co.uk which includes an interesting analysis of the mtDNA evidence.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Dubhthach on January 16, 2013, 10:10:45 AM
I see the book is available in Easons, saw a copy of it today in Dún Laoghaire, didn't buy it as I have it on order from Amazon (it's 6 euro more expensive in Easons to boot!)

There's at least one map taken from the M269 study, from a quick glance through that chapter the impression I get is he's quite wary of all the talk of geneticists, he obviously mentions both Oppenheimer and later studies that propose that R1b (specifically M269) onwards is due to spread from Neolithic. He doesn't take a position instead makes the valid point that it's only with ancient DNA that we can get a better picture with regards to wether R1b was present etc. If you ask me that's reasonable enough he is an archaeologist after all.

The map used is the L21 one from the M269 study (M529). As he uses the proxy of Niall in the chapter he also has a simple tree which obviously doesn't include DF13, DF49 and DF23.

Anyways it was only a quick glance while I was on lunch break.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on January 16, 2013, 02:25:44 PM
Paul,
Here is a series of excellent lectures from Mallory, Renfrew, Anthony and Meir (The Dream Team) on the Tarim Basin Mummies from the Penn Museum conference, "Secrets of the Silk Road".
They made clear their distrust of modern DNA analysis and recommend making more use of ancient DNA.
I believe Renfrew mentioned a 10 - 20 year timeframe before things became clear.
Interesting that some of the nearby mummies are dressed in high quality tartan clothing similar to Celtic Halstatt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NrLZ8CzRWk&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QapUGZ0ObjA&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY0acUCvZEs&sns=em





Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 16, 2013, 09:23:10 PM
Mallorys new book arrived in my post today. Will not have the time to read it until the weekend though.  Hardback of decent thickness. 


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on January 20, 2013, 01:11:07 AM
Mallorys new book arrived in my post today. Will not have the time to read it until the weekend though.  Hardback of decent thickness. 

Dear God in Heaven, man! Throw us a bone!


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Bren123 on January 20, 2013, 11:41:02 AM
I'm predicting that they will determine that most of the male Irish lineage is L21.  Sorry, joke, couldn't help it.

I expect that's right, but it's what Mallory says about how it got to Ireland that interests me.

And what date it arrived there!


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Bren123 on January 20, 2013, 11:47:23 AM
I understand Jean M showed him her book.    

I also saw the genetic section of his forthcoming book on the Irish before final stage. Since he not a geneticist, of course he is reliant on what geneticists have published. It is no use expecting ancient DNA to be pulled out of the bag or any amazing new revelations. The impression I got though was of a highly readable presentation and his usual sceptical intelligence being brought to bear on all material. I expect this book to fly off the shelves.  

Do you have the ISBN number so I can try ordering the book?


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on January 20, 2013, 03:56:58 PM
Do you have the ISBN number so I can try ordering the book?

ISBN-10: 0500051755
ISBN-13: 978-0500051757

You can order from Amazon. 


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on January 20, 2013, 03:59:51 PM
Here's the blurb from the publisher (http://www.thamesandhudson.com/The_Origins_of_the_Irish/9780500051757):

About eighty million people today can trace their descent back to the occupants of Ireland. But where did they come from – and what do we mean by ‘Irish’? The Origins of the Irish is the first major attempt for almost a century to deal with the core issues of how the Irish people came into being.

Written as an engrossing detective story and illustrated with informative drawings and maps, this is essential reading for anyone who is interested in Ireland and the Irish.

Scholars have puzzled over the riddle of Irish origins for over a thousand years, but without any clear resolution. The medieval Irish created an elaborate narrative of their origins that has haunted generations of archaeologists, linguists and even modern geneticists. This authoritative and brilliantly argued book emphasizes that the Irish did not have a single origin, but are a product of multiple influences that can only be tracked by employing archaeology, genetics, geology, linguistics and mythology.

Beginning with the geological collision that fused the two halves of Ireland, the author traces Ireland’s long journey to become an island. He examines the sources of Ireland’s earliest colonists and why they might have sought out one of the most impoverished places of Europe to settle.

The origins of the first farmers and their impact on the island are followed by an exploration of how metallurgists in copper, bronze and iron brought Ireland into wider orbits of European culture. Traditional explanations of Irish prehistory are assessed in the light of the very latest genetic research into the origins of the Irish. The author also tackles the vexed question of the Celts and the sources of the Irish language.

J. P. Mallory is a world expert on the interconnection of archaeology and linguistics and is the author of the standard work In Search of the Indo-Europeans and The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European. He has co-authored The Archaeology of Ulster and The Tarim Mummies and published numerous other works. He is Emeritus Professor of Prehistoric Archaeology at Queen’s University Belfast and a member of the Royal Irish Academy.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 21, 2013, 04:41:57 PM
...
I believe Renfrew mentioned a 10 - 20 year timeframe before things became clear.....
Is Colin Renfrew saying we won't know the answer for 10-20 years from today? umm, I wonder what he is basing that prognostication on?

When someone would preface an argument about the long-term, John Maynard Keynes, the famous economist, had this to say about the accuracy of forecasting, "In the long run we are all dead."


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on January 21, 2013, 06:10:06 PM
I received my copy today. Here is the structure and my initial notes on the DNA chapter 8.
I use ISOGG naming shorthand for haplogroups. There are 320 pages with 122 illustrations.
The writing is clear and humorous. A great read. I will give a more detailed analysis when I complete all chapters.

Origins of the Irish.   J.P.Malory.

Contents

Preface
Introduction
   Ireland and its counties.

The Origins of Ireland
First Colonists
First Farmers
Beaker and Metal
The Rise of the Warriors
The Iron Age
The Native Version
Skulls, Blood and Genes
European population tree according to (blood group) markers
(Scottish and Irish Cluster)
(English, Dane, Dutch Cluster)
People's of Europe according to principal component analysis (blood group)
(Irish and Basque on the periphery. East / West Cline).
(Type O common in Ireland, Scotland, Iberia)
Map of the first principal component across Europe.
Gradient running from Near East to the Atlantic Periphery.
Patterns of the phenylketonuria (PKU) mutations and their possible spread to Ireland and Britain.
Table 8.1 mtDNA of Modern Irish Population
H 39%
U 13%
K 11%
J 10%
V 4%
T 2%
X 2%
Table 8.2 Subgroups of mtDNA haplogroup H
H1, H3, H4, H5a, H6, H7, H13
Table 8.3 mtDNA haplogroups of Ireland
Haplogroup.  Home             In Ireland (KYA)
U                   Greece.          7.3
X.                  Caucasus       5.5
H.                  S. France       5.5
V.                   N. Iberia.        5.5
T.                   N. Italy.           5.5
K.                  N. Italy            5.5
J.                   Near East       4.0
Table 8.4 genetic composition of modern Irish according to mtDNA haplogroups
Pre-farming
D, H, HV, I, K, T, T2, T4, U, U2, U4, U5, U5a, U5a1, U5b, V, W, X
Farming
J, J1a, J1b, J2, T1, U3
8.5 The proposed migration of R1b-14 ("Rory") from Iberia to Ireland.
Shows a clear migration route along the Atllantic facade from Iberia to Ireland
Table 8.5 Major Y chromosome halpogroups in Ireland
Pre-farming
R1a, R1a1, R1b3, IJK, PN3, N3, I1a, I1b2, I1c
Farming
E3b, G, J
Table 8.6 Distribution of Y chromosome haplogroup R1b among populations in Ireland. Irish surnames were compared to non Irish surnames.
Source.         %R1b
Connacht.         98
Munster.            95
Ulster.                81
Leinster.            73
English.             63
Scottish.            53
Norman/Norse. 83      
The Irish modal haplogroup (M222) and its ancestors
Shown the haplogroup tree from M269 > L11 > U106, P312 > L21, U152 > M222
M222 accounts for about 5% of Irishmen
Distribution of L21 (M529)
Map with peak in Ireland and distribution along the Atlantic Facade
The Evidence of Language
The Origins of the Irish

       Notes
       Bibliography
       Source of Illustrations
       Index
       320 pages including Index.
       122 illustrations


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on January 21, 2013, 06:17:23 PM
...
I believe Renfrew mentioned a 10 - 20 year timeframe before things became clear.....
Is Colin Renfrew saying we won't know the answer for 10-20 years from today? umm, I wonder what he is basing that prognostication on?

When someone would preface an argument about the long-term, John Maynard Keynes, the famous economist, had this to say about the accuracy of forecasting, "In the long run we are all dead."

Mike,

If you look through the YouTube videos from the "Mysteries of the Silk Road" conference, Mallory jokes that we will be all dead before the matter is resolved. I believe that Renfrew was referring to the time required to get a sufficiently large data base of ancient DNA. Given the geological timeframe it takes to get results back from Geno 2.0 (Ordered July 2012, still on 40%) from modern samples, I dont think he is exaggerating.:).


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: rms2 on January 21, 2013, 07:19:19 PM
. . .
8.5 The proposed migration of R1b-14 ("Rory") from Iberia to Ireland.
Shows a clear migration route along the Atllantic facade from Iberia to Ireland
Table 8.5 Major Y chromosome halpogroups in Ireland
Pre-farming
R1a, R1a1, R1b3, IJK, PN3, N3, I1a, I1b2, I1c

Farming
E3b, G, J
. . .


(The bolding is mine, for emphasis.)

Oh, crud. If that is an accurate representation of some of the y-dna info in Mallory's book, then it's out of date already and maybe not worth buying. Obviously even the names of the y haplogroups are outdated.

What is discouraging to me is the whole "Pre-farming", out-of-Iberia schlock. That is "The Thing That Will Not Die" (although many of us wish it would).

What the hell is R1b-14 ("Rory")?

Aaahhhrrrggghhh!


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: rms2 on January 21, 2013, 07:25:41 PM
. . .
8.5 The proposed migration of R1b-14 ("Rory") from Iberia to Ireland.
Shows a clear migration route along the Atllantic facade from Iberia to Ireland
Table 8.5 Major Y chromosome halpogroups in Ireland
Pre-farming
R1a, R1a1, R1b3, IJK, PN3, N3, I1a, I1b2, I1c

Farming
E3b, G, J
. . .


(The bolding is mine, for emphasis.)

Oh, crud. If that is an accurate representation of some of the y-dna info in Mallory's book, then it's out of date already and maybe not worth buying. Obviously even the names of the y haplogroups are outdated.

What is discouraging to me is the whole "Pre-farming", out-of-Iberia schlock. That is "the Thing that will not die" (although many of us wish it would).

What the hell is R1b-14 ("Rory")?

Aaahhhrrrggghhh!


Okay. I answered my own question about R1b-14 ("Rory") by dusting off my copy of Oppenheimer's The Origins of the British. "Rory" is one of his six-marker clusters.

Well, nothing to see here. Best to move along. :-(


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on January 21, 2013, 07:56:47 PM
R1b-14 Rory?! What a stunning disappointment. How could an "expert" be seven years behind? This just doesn't seem possible. I'm absolutely bewildered!


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on January 21, 2013, 08:37:02 PM
Mallory does not defend the Oppenheimer dates 15,760 with standard deviation 8,440 which is too early for settlement in Ireland. He goes on to discuss other studies (2010) with dates from 4577 - 9063. He then mentions a later study (Busby?) which discounts the more recent dates.

"Recognising that dating of Y Chrosomone lineages is notoriously controversial, the authors of the article would not hazard a date for M269 other than suspecting that the more recent (Neolithic) dates cited in some recent papers are likely to be too recent."


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: gtc on January 21, 2013, 10:39:57 PM
R1b-14 Rory?! What a stunning disappointment. How could an "expert" be seven years behind? This just doesn't seem possible. I'm absolutely bewildered!

Maybe if we all write to him on that score he may get the message!

 j.mallory@qub.ac.uk


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on January 22, 2013, 04:33:15 AM
Origins of the Irish: Two Scenarios

"There are two sets of contradictory conclusions to this chapter:

Conclusion 1

1.   The principal genetic basis of the Irish population derives from male and female lineages who entered Europe during and after the last Ice Age. These populations branched into different subgroups  while isolated in the different refuges  and then moved northward when the ice sheets melted.
2.   Southern france or northern Iberia.
3.   A minority of Irish carry a legacy derived from the spread of the first farmers from the Near East. It is probable that at this time the gene for lactose pesistance was also introduced.
4.   Most surveys of Irelands genetic profile fail to find any significant evidence of migrations after the Neolithic.
5.   The denial of any further population incursions on the basis of modern genetics is unsafe if we follow results of Hungarian DNA that reveal that reveal that the genetics of the modern population may fail to reflect the actual history of the region.

Conclusion 2

1.   The principal genetic basis of the Irish population derives from male and female lineages who entered Europe after the last Ice Age, possibly with the advance of farming from the Near East.
2.   There are some traces of population continuity from earlier populations who had been resident in Europe before the end of the last Ice Age, eg. mtDNA U5.
3.   The major male genetic line associated with Ireland (Y R1b) may have entered from the Neolithic perion onward.
4.   The evidence of current Irish population genetics can neither confirm nor deny the possibility of later gene flow into Ireland during the Bronze and Iron Ages.
The extension of ancient DNA testing to the prehistoric population of Ireland should help decide which (if any) of the above models is valid."


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Dubhthach on January 22, 2013, 05:06:38 AM
As Heber mentions he also points out Busby study, my opinion from quick glance at the chapter is he's just putting both ideas out there, he's not agreeing with either but saying this is some of the current published research. One thing he mentions over and over again is the need for "ancient DNA"

End of the day he's an archaeologist and he seems quite skeptical about all the talk of geneticists.

The bulk of the book of course is about the different archaelogical periods as well as throwing in a chapter about the general "pseudo-history" as drafted up during the 7th-8th century by the Irish "literati"

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 22, 2013, 02:27:57 PM
...
I believe Renfrew mentioned a 10 - 20 year timeframe before things became clear.....
Is Colin Renfrew saying we won't know the answer for 10-20 years from today? umm, I wonder what he is basing that prognostication on?

When someone would preface an argument about the long-term, John Maynard Keynes, the famous economist, had this to say about the accuracy of forecasting, "In the long run we are all dead."

Mike,

If you look through the YouTube videos from the "Mysteries of the Silk Road" conference, Mallory jokes that we will be all dead before the matter is resolved. I believe that Renfrew was referring to the time required to get a sufficiently large data base of ancient DNA. Given the geological timeframe it takes to get results back from Geno 2.0 (Ordered July 2012, still on 40%) from modern samples, I dont think he is exaggerating.:).

If it was joking, as you say about Mallory, that's just in good fun.

What I was worried about is if Renfrew is serious. If so, he is essentially punting to the next generation. If so, the implication is he knows he can't win the argument with the evidence today so he has no choice.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on January 29, 2013, 07:26:20 AM
Just finished it last night. I was gripped. There are some fascinating insights in there. (And I forgive him for spelling my name wrongly. Happens all the time.) 

I knew from a talk he gave at Oxford that he feels Bell Beaker is too early for the spread of Celtic, but I'm sticking to my guns.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: SEJJ on January 29, 2013, 11:14:08 AM
Just finished it last night. I was gripped. There are some fascinating insights in there. (And I forgive him for spelling my name wrongly. Happens all the time.) 

I knew from a talk he gave at Oxford that he feels Bell Beaker is too early for the spread of Celtic, but I'm sticking to my guns.

I've ordered it. Should be a good read.

When is your own book due to be released?


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on January 29, 2013, 12:59:28 PM
This September.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 29, 2013, 04:25:20 PM
This September.

Congratulations, both on your publishing date and on being cited by Mallory.

I see he must frequent Belfast, but is a native Californian. There is a back migration for you!


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on January 29, 2013, 04:48:11 PM
Quote from: Mikewww
I see he must frequent Belfast, but is a native Californian. There is a back migration for you!

Yes. He's Anglo-Norman-Irish-American.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on January 29, 2013, 04:56:18 PM
Quote from: Mikewww
Congratulations on being cited by Mallory.

I'm not cited by him. He just threw a credit to me into the acknowledgements as I passed on a few handy papers by other authors. Undeserved really. I owe much, much more to him.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on January 29, 2013, 07:39:57 PM
So, from where do the Irish originate? My parents are dead, but I can tell my cousins.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: inver2b1 on January 29, 2013, 08:30:23 PM
So, from where do the Irish originate? My parents are dead, but I can tell my cousins.

Turns out it was Cavan, of all places.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on January 29, 2013, 10:32:42 PM
So, from where do the Irish originate? My parents are dead, but I can tell my cousins.

Turns out it was Cavan, of all places.

Hey! Better than Leitrim!


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on January 30, 2013, 07:51:55 AM
So, from where do the Irish originate?

Multiple places, as per usual for European peoples. There is nary a one that can claim a single origin for all the DNA in all the people who currently hold a passport from a particular nation, unless we are going to track it all back to the first Homo sapiens. You posted earlier:

Quote
I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Metallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Mallory agrees with you on #1 and #2 and partly on #3. He feels that the Bell Beaker/metallurgy arrival involved community/family immigration from both Atlantic Europe and northern Britain. What I find really interesting is the evidence he lays out for a change in the Late BB period in Ireland, which I had suspected. (He does not say so, but I suspect that Late BB is when the earliest Celtic arrived in Ireland via Britain. It looks to me as though the early BB in Ireland came up the Atlantic coast from Portugal via Brittany and was associated with an Italo-Celtic dialect.)

Mallory is keener on the idea that Celtic arrived somewhat later, with the rise of hillforts c. 1000 BC.  



Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: alan trowel hands. on January 30, 2013, 08:42:24 PM
What I like about Jim's approach is that he is very cautious and always outlines the problems and only presents probabilities.  I think its a great book for people interested in the subject but who havent up to date material.  It is essentially an archaeology book focussed on the populating of Ireland.  The DNA part is token and essentially he stays well clear of it.  I think he can see there are still a lot of leaps of faith in interpreting DNA through variance etc so he is characteristically cautious and dodges the issue.  What you do get is a very good book lookng at archaeological evidence.  I personally think he tells it how it is and when something is not clear he says so.  

A few things stand out for me

1.  He derives the Mesolithic Irish from northern Britain by boat through the area around the Isle of Man.  What I found very dissapointing is he dodged the issue of where they came from before that.  He just put in some stock padding about the Franco-Cantabrian refugia but in reality its far more complex than that as there is a long period between SW Europe in 14000BC and northern Britain in 8200BC.  What was the route in between?

2.  He pretty well derives the Irish farmers from a radiating of farmers from SE England where they were a few centuries older.  They had to have come by boat with animals so Britain is pretty well the only scenario.

3.  One of the main themes of the book is that Ireland and Britain were culturally almost always very similar and there was a constant flow of ideas, new material culture, new momuments, new pottery, new ritual idea etc between the too island that was vastily larger than with the continent.  This seems to have been true through the entire Neolithic and Bronze Age c. 3800BC to 700BC.  He paints a picture of the Irish Sea with a constant flow of people, ideas and material between the two island.  He sees direct continental contact (not via Britain) as rare and perhaps not unsurprisingy, where it is implied, it points to NW France. This however is a minor aspect and his main theme is that Ireland and western Britain were joined at the hip throughout much of prehistory.  The Bronze Age part of this is IMO likely to be connected with the heavy sharing of L21 subclades and clusters between the Irish and western Britain.  

4. He is not a believe in Celts in Ireland until at least the later Bronze Age.  I am not surprised he continues to argue that because he has already put this in print several times.

In general, I am in 100% agreement with him because he just puts the evidence out there and kind of leaves yourself to make up your mind.  There are no real surprses.  He does try and place the arrival of Celtic in Ireland as linked with the appearance of hillforts.  Its possible but he only takes that link as far as Britain and he is clear about how tenious this is.  Not impossible though.  It comes over though as just one of a continous flow of links between the two island.  That of course passes back the buck of Celticisation of the isles to Britain. 


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on January 30, 2013, 11:30:04 PM
So, the Irish originated in Britain. Now we need to find someone to write a book telling us the origins of the Britons. Well, it will have to be someone believable.

Until then if anyone asks me where the Irish came from I'll tell them Britain. If they ask where they came from before they got to Britain, I'll tell them no one knows.

I don't know why, but I feel as if I haven't learned anything from this book and Mr. Mallory.



Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: gtc on January 31, 2013, 12:54:12 AM
no one knows.

... which is a fact, is it not?


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Mike Walsh on January 31, 2013, 01:29:28 AM
So, the Irish originated in Britain. Now we need to find someone to write a book telling us the origins of the Britons. Well, it will have to be someone believable.

Until then if anyone asks me where the Irish came from I'll tell them Britain. If they ask where they came from before they got to Britain, I'll tell them no one knows.

I don't know why, but I feel as if I haven't learned anything from this book and Mr. Mallory.

I think this is a somewhat of an overly simplistic view of some of the themes of the book.

You have to decide what you mean by Irish to start out with. If we are talking about the male lineages of Ireland I think that many of them probably reached Ireland via Britain. Just the geographic proximity and direction from the Near East and NE Africa indicates this is a strong possibility.

Genetically, England is full of L21, just like Ireland. Northern and northwestern France also has a lot of L21. England's L21 has greater diversity than Ireland's so that only supports the possibility.

Mallory is an archaeologist and apparently he thinks the archaeology supports a lot of migration from Britain to Ireland.

There certainly was movement the other direction too and there is a lot more to the Irish than just L21 male lineages....

but it is what it is.

BTW, the first Celtic speakers on Britain may not have been true Britons in the sense of being Brythonic speaking. The could have been archaic Q-Celtic speaking.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on January 31, 2013, 06:06:18 AM
BTW, the first Celtic speakers on Britain may not have been true Britons in the sense of being Brythonic speaking. They could have been archaic Q-Celtic speaking.

That I think is a virtual certainty. No linguist thinks that P-Celtic is of the same age as Q-Celtic. Mallory is pushing for a later date than Bell Beaker for the arrival of Celtic in the British Isles because of the linguistic problems he sees with the earlier date. But there is a equally large problem with an Iron Age date. If Celtic arrived any time after the 6th century BC via Britain (who got it from Gaul) it would be P-Celtic (which is attested in Lepontic inscriptions from the 6th century.) So he goes for c. 1000 BC as about the latest time that linguists can picture P-Celtic splitting with Q-Celtic. 

But his book actually provides the solution to the linguistic problems, though he doesn't make much of it. 

Problem 1: the similarities between the Insular Celtic languages. Does this not indicate an Iron Age split to form Irish and Brythonic? In fact these similarities (including the word for "iron") could just as easily come from contact between the islands from the first arrival of an archaic Celtic to long after P-Celtic had been adopted in Britain, as some linguists have suggested. One of those contacts could be the P-Celtic speakers in eastern Ireland by the Roman period, the evidence for which Mallory takes a lot more seriously than many authors.

Problem 2: the lack of regional dialects in the earliest written form of Irish. Mallory provides a possible solution. One regional dialect of Irish Gaelic could have spread over Ireland at some point, pushing out both P-Celtic and other dialects of Gaelic.

My comment: And who more likely to have achieved this than his archetypal Irishman, Niall of the Nine Hostages? He and his people pushed out of western Ireland, where Gaelic could have survived against waves of P-Celtic incomers landing on the east coast. His descendants seem to have had a wide impact.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on January 31, 2013, 12:35:57 PM
The Book should have been titled, "The Unknown Origins of the Irish".  By saying the Irish originated in Britain without giving any origin of the British, then he is giving nothing.

If Mallory stated in his Book the path taken by each wave of people, such as they came from what is now The Netherlands and passed through Britain to what is now Liverpool and entered Ireland in the area that is now Dublin, we would have gotten something.

Does Mallory at any time state an area of the Continent as the origin of any wave of people into Ireland through Britain?

Also, what is the linguistic evidence of Q-Celtic in Britain before Ogham? Are there Q-Celtic place names in Britain?


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on January 31, 2013, 01:18:03 PM
@ eochaidh

Mallory does sketch in the familiar story of the retreat from the glaciers, followed by the repopulation of northern Europe from southern refuges. I don't know that it would be possible to be more exact on the wanderings of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers who crossed the land-bridge to Britain and then (he deduces) across an almost land-bridge incorporating the now Isle of Man. Quite a bit of the evidence is now under water. 

Likewise we have none too clear a path for the entry of the first farmers into the Isles, beyond some possible points of departure along the coast of what is now France. I had to almost throw up my hands, and I'm not the first. I'm prepared to link it to a trail of dairy farmers up the Danube, but there will be plenty of people complaining that I'm too bold.

Actually I think you would enjoy the book. Mallory has a delightful sense of humour.   


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on January 31, 2013, 11:21:51 PM
I'm so used to facebook that I always try to hit the like button. Anyway, I like what you wrote Jean.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on February 01, 2013, 07:34:03 AM
Quote from: eochaidh
Are there Q-Celtic place names in Britain?

Loads of them. They keep increasing as Scottish local authorities decide upon the official Gaelic forms of place-names (http://www.gaelicplacenames.org/index.php). The problem lies in proving that any of them pre-date the rise of the Scots.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on February 01, 2013, 10:30:22 AM
Quote from: eochaidh
Are there Q-Celtic place names in Britain?

Loads of them. They keep increasing as Scottish local authorities decide upon the official Gaelic forms of place-names (http://www.gaelicplacenames.org/index.php). The problem lies in proving that any of them pre-date the rise of the Scots.

I meant before Ogham and especially in southern Britain.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on February 01, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Not that can be securely pegged to Q-Celtic, as far as I know. Wales and Cornwall are loaded with P-Celtic names, as you would expect. In the rest of England, river-names can be Celtic e.g. the several rivers Avon, from the same root word meaning "river" that gives us the Irish rivers Avonbeg, Avonmore and Awbeg. In Irish that is abhainn, in Welsh it is afon. There is a discussion of this name by  Calvert Watkins, 'River' in Celtic and Indo-European, Ériu, Vol. 24, (1973), pp. 80-89 (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30007351?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101740668027), that is over my head frankly. The only bit I understand is "archaic".

Or river-names can be regarded as pre-Celtic but IE, such as the Don, West Yorkshire, which is from the same IE root meaning "water" or "river" as the Don and Danube running into the Black Sea. If we conclude (as I do) that the earliest IE speakers to arrive in Britain were Bell Beaker people, such IE pre-Celtic names would be bestowed by them while they were still speaking a language closer to IE than Celtic.  

I presume that the Irish River Eske has the same etymology as the several British rivers Esk and Exe, from the root "isca", presumed to mean "water" or "river".


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Dubhthach on February 01, 2013, 01:10:42 PM
Not sure about that. I see the name of the river is: "Abhainn na hIascaigh" eg. "River of the fishery"

Iascaigh = fishery
Iasc = fish (singular)/(genitive plural)
éisc = fish (plural)/(genitive singular)

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: avalon on February 01, 2013, 01:52:31 PM
What I like about Jim's approach is that he is very cautious and always outlines the problems and only presents probabilities.  I think its a great book for people interested in the subject but who havent up to date material.  It is essentially an archaeology book focussed on the populating of Ireland.  The DNA part is token and essentially he stays well clear of it.  I think he can see there are still a lot of leaps of faith in interpreting DNA through variance etc so he is characteristically cautious and dodges the issue.  What you do get is a very good book lookng at archaeological evidence.  I personally think he tells it how it is and when something is not clear he says so.  

A few things stand out for me

1.  He derives the Mesolithic Irish from northern Britain by boat through the area around the Isle of Man.  What I found very dissapointing is he dodged the issue of where they came from before that.  He just put in some stock padding about the Franco-Cantabrian refugia but in reality its far more complex than that as there is a long period between SW Europe in 14000BC and northern Britain in 8200BC.  What was the route in between?

2.  He pretty well derives the Irish farmers from a radiating of farmers from SE England where they were a few centuries older.  They had to have come by boat with animals so Britain is pretty well the only scenario.

3.  One of the main themes of the book is that Ireland and Britain were culturally almost always very similar and there was a constant flow of ideas, new material culture, new momuments, new pottery, new ritual idea etc between the too island that was vastily larger than with the continent.  This seems to have been true through the entire Neolithic and Bronze Age c. 3800BC to 700BC.  He paints a picture of the Irish Sea with a constant flow of people, ideas and material between the two island.  He sees direct continental contact (not via Britain) as rare and perhaps not unsurprisingy, where it is implied, it points to NW France. This however is a minor aspect and his main theme is that Ireland and western Britain were joined at the hip throughout much of prehistory.  The Bronze Age part of this is IMO likely to be connected with the heavy sharing of L21 subclades and clusters between the Irish and western Britain.  

4. He is not a believe in Celts in Ireland until at least the later Bronze Age.  I am not surprised he continues to argue that because he has already put this in print several times.

In general, I am in 100% agreement with him because he just puts the evidence out there and kind of leaves yourself to make up your mind.  There are no real surprses.  He does try and place the arrival of Celtic in Ireland as linked with the appearance of hillforts.  Its possible but he only takes that link as far as Britain and he is clear about how tenious this is.  Not impossible though.  It comes over though as just one of a continous flow of links between the two island.  That of course passes back the buck of Celticisation of the isles to Britain. 

Thanks for the informative comment.

Is the consensus now then, that the oldest male lineages in Britain and Ireland only go back as far as the Bronze Age (L21) and that hardly any y-dna lineages from the Neolithic or Mesolithic have survived to the modern day?

On the question of geographic origins, for the first farmers, it seems obvious that France is the general origin point and Brittany has been mentioned but clearly there would have been multiple waves and multiple origin points during the Neolithic.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on February 01, 2013, 02:11:05 PM
I see the name of the river is: "Abhainn na hIascaigh" eg. "River of the fishery"

Iascaigh = fishery
Iasc = fish (singular)/(genitive plural)
éisc = fish (plural)/(genitive singular)

That would make sense. The Latin pisces (fish), without the initial "p" that got dropped in Celtic.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 01, 2013, 03:23:01 PM
 What was that bit where Mallory says something about NE English having a substrate effect that is a very good match for archaic Irish?


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: avalon on February 01, 2013, 05:11:44 PM
@ eochaidh

Mallory does sketch in the familiar story of the retreat from the glaciers, followed by the repopulation of northern Europe from southern refuges. I don't know that it would be possible to be more exact on the wanderings of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers who crossed the land-bridge to Britain and then (he deduces) across an almost land-bridge incorporating the now Isle of Man. Quite a bit of the evidence is now under water. 

Likewise we have none too clear a path for the entry of the first farmers into the Isles, beyond some possible points of departure along the coast of what is now France. I had to almost throw up my hands, and I'm not the first. I'm prepared to link it to a trail of dairy farmers up the Danube, but there will be plenty of people complaining that I'm too bold.

Actually I think you would enjoy the book. Mallory has a delightful sense of humour.   

I am learning much from your posts, thanks.

WRT the Danubian dairy farmers, is there a proposed route to the Isles after the Danube? Was it north via the Rhine or west into France, or something else. I did look at your site but couldn't find anything.

I realise that farming took a long time to spread through Europe to the Isles and obviously it wasn't a single wave of people. And presumably, the first farmers may have been replaced by later farmers who arrived by different routes.

I think it's safe to say that all arrivals to the Isles came directly from France or the low countries, unless they were much better sailors than we give them credit for.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on February 01, 2013, 05:25:02 PM
If the West Asian percentages found in Autosomal tests represents the Danubian Farmers (which I think it does) than it seems as if they came along what is now the north of France, Belgium and The Netherlands. Some Autosomal results from The Netherlands show a higher West Asian score than others in Western Europe or the Isles. Cornwall scores also show a higher West Asian score.

I have a higher West Asian score than the Irish scores I've seen, although their are some Leinster testers who are close. I am also 25 French-Canadian with a large amount of ancestry from Brittany which I believe would have similar test scores to those from Cornwall.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on February 01, 2013, 06:40:52 PM
What was that bit where Mallory says something about NE English having a substrate effect that is a very good match for archaic Irish?

Forgot that. It's page 269, where he says there is a good match between Old Irish and Old English phonetics in Northumbria. The reference is Schrijver 2009 : Celtic influence on Old English (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=5881664).    


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on February 01, 2013, 08:26:16 PM
WRT the Danubian dairy farmers, is there a proposed route to the Isles after the Danube? Was it north via the Rhine or west into France, or something else. I did look at your site but couldn't find anything.

You won't find anything on my site that is going into the book. My suggestion is that after the first wave of farmers into Central Europe (the LBK) another wave followed who were dairy farmers. They seem to have moved up the Danube to form the Rössen culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B6ssen_culture). From part of that region springs the Michelsberg culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelsberg_culture), which is a possible source for the British and Irish Neolithic. 


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Bren123 on February 03, 2013, 05:29:52 AM
So, the Irish originated in Britain. Now we need to find someone to write a book telling us the origins of the Britons. Well, it will have to be someone believable.

Until then if anyone asks me where the Irish came from I'll tell them Britain. If they ask where they came from before they got to Britain, I'll tell them no one knows.

I don't know why, but I feel as if I haven't learned anything from this book and Mr. Mallory.



Well there is that joke that says the welsh are the irish that couldn't swim!


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: gtc on February 04, 2013, 12:45:31 AM
Well there is that joke that says the welsh are the irish that couldn't swim!

:-)


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Bren123 on February 04, 2013, 03:57:45 PM
Well there is that joke that says the welsh are the irish that couldn't swim!

:-)

huh?


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on February 04, 2013, 04:58:06 PM
Mallory deals with the
First Colonists - Mesolithic
First Farmers - Neolithic
Beakers and Metal - Bronze
Warriors - Late Bronze
The Iron Age
Celtic Mythology
Genetics
Language
I have updated my Pinterest board to reflect his structure.

www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/

I have not made a lot of progress so far.
He appears to argue for a mixture of Atlantic and Continental networks.
I will go through it in detail to try to understand his position.



Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: gtc on February 04, 2013, 11:47:41 PM
Well there is that joke that says the welsh are the irish that couldn't swim!

:-)

huh?

:-) is a smile.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: dodelo on February 05, 2013, 02:06:06 PM

[/quote]

huh?
[/quote]

 "I feel good " J. Brown 1965


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: avalon on February 05, 2013, 05:25:12 PM
So, from where do the Irish originate?

Multiple places, as per usual for European peoples. There is nary a one that can claim a single origin for all the DNA in all the people who currently hold a passport from a particular nation, unless we are going to track it all back to the first Homo sapiens. You posted earlier:

Quote
I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Metallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Mallory agrees with you on #1 and #2 and partly on #3. He feels that the Bell Beaker/metallurgy arrival involved community/family immigration from both Atlantic Europe and northern Britain. What I find really interesting is the evidence he lays out for a change in the Late BB period in Ireland, which I had suspected. (He does not say so, but I suspect that Late BB is when the earliest Celtic arrived in Ireland via Britain. It looks to me as though the early BB in Ireland came up the Atlantic coast from Portugal via Brittany and was associated with an Italo-Celtic dialect.)

Mallory is keener on the idea that Celtic arrived somewhat later, with the rise of hillforts c. 1000 BC.  



But, in terms of genetics...

The Mesolithic hunter gatherers who crossed over into Britain and Ireland have not left a trace in the modern population, mainly because their way of life was replaced by the incoming farmers and they died out. Also, it was a long time ago and humans aren't that resilient. However, we need more ancient DNA from the Isles to be sure of this.

Likewise, during 2,500 years of the Neolithic many waves of farmers came to the Isles by various routes, but again on the Y-DNA, these lineages haven't survived to the modern day because new folks arrived in the Bronze Age, Bell Beaker, who have left descendants.

So basically, the modern Irish and British only carry small traces of Neolithic and Mesolithic genes and I would guess this is more on the mtDNA due to the practice of incomers taking local wives.

Incidentally, do we have enough modern DNA data from all corners of the Isles to be sure of these conclusions? I mean where is the data coming from, we have genetic databases with a strong North American interest and some published genetic studies within the last 15 years?

Can we rely on current dating methods for SNPs, etc?










Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Bren123 on February 06, 2013, 01:51:35 PM
So, from where do the Irish originate?

Multiple places, as per usual for European peoples. There is nary a one that can claim a single origin for all the DNA in all the people who currently hold a passport from a particular nation, unless we are going to track it all back to the first Homo sapiens. You posted earlier:

Quote
I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Metallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Mallory agrees with you on #1 and #2 and partly on #3. He feels that the Bell Beaker/metallurgy arrival involved community/family immigration from both Atlantic Europe and northern Britain. What I find really interesting is the evidence he lays out for a change in the Late BB period in Ireland, which I had suspected. (He does not say so, but I suspect that Late BB is when the earliest Celtic arrived in Ireland via Britain. It looks to me as though the early BB in Ireland came up the Atlantic coast from Portugal via Brittany and was associated with an Italo-Celtic dialect.)

Mallory is keener on the idea that Celtic arrived somewhat later, with the rise of hillforts c. 1000 BC.  



But, in terms of genetics...

The Mesolithic hunter gatherers who crossed over into Britain and Ireland have not left a trace in the modern population, mainly because their way of life was replaced by the incoming farmers and they died out. Also, it was a long time ago and humans aren't that resilient. However, we need more ancient DNA from the Isles to be sure of this.

Likewise, during 2,500 years of the Neolithic many waves of farmers came to the Isles by various routes, but again on the Y-DNA, these lineages haven't survived to the modern day because new folks arrived in the Bronze Age, Bell Beaker, who have left descendants.

So basically, the modern Irish and British only carry small traces of Neolithic and Mesolithic genes and I would guess this is more on the mtDNA due to the practice of incomers taking local wives.

Incidentally, do we have enough modern DNA data from all corners of the Isles to be sure of these conclusions? I mean where is the data coming from, we have genetic databases with a strong North American interest and some published genetic studies within the last 15 years?

Can we rely on current dating methods for SNPs, etc?










Is there any aY-DNA from Bell Beaker and later bronze age Britain?


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: avalon on February 06, 2013, 04:22:27 PM
So, from where do the Irish originate?

Multiple places, as per usual for European peoples. There is nary a one that can claim a single origin for all the DNA in all the people who currently hold a passport from a particular nation, unless we are going to track it all back to the first Homo sapiens. You posted earlier:

Quote
I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Metallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Mallory agrees with you on #1 and #2 and partly on #3. He feels that the Bell Beaker/metallurgy arrival involved community/family immigration from both Atlantic Europe and northern Britain. What I find really interesting is the evidence he lays out for a change in the Late BB period in Ireland, which I had suspected. (He does not say so, but I suspect that Late BB is when the earliest Celtic arrived in Ireland via Britain. It looks to me as though the early BB in Ireland came up the Atlantic coast from Portugal via Brittany and was associated with an Italo-Celtic dialect.)

Mallory is keener on the idea that Celtic arrived somewhat later, with the rise of hillforts c. 1000 BC.  



But, in terms of genetics...

The Mesolithic hunter gatherers who crossed over into Britain and Ireland have not left a trace in the modern population, mainly because their way of life was replaced by the incoming farmers and they died out. Also, it was a long time ago and humans aren't that resilient. However, we need more ancient DNA from the Isles to be sure of this.

Likewise, during 2,500 years of the Neolithic many waves of farmers came to the Isles by various routes, but again on the Y-DNA, these lineages haven't survived to the modern day because new folks arrived in the Bronze Age, Bell Beaker, who have left descendants.

So basically, the modern Irish and British only carry small traces of Neolithic and Mesolithic genes and I would guess this is more on the mtDNA due to the practice of incomers taking local wives.

Incidentally, do we have enough modern DNA data from all corners of the Isles to be sure of these conclusions? I mean where is the data coming from, we have genetic databases with a strong North American interest and some published genetic studies within the last 15 years?

Can we rely on current dating methods for SNPs, etc?










Is there any aY-DNA from Bell Beaker and later bronze age Britain?

I don't think so.

As far as I'm aware there isn't any ancient Y-DNA from anywhere in Ireland or Britain.

All of the these conclusions are based on modern Y-DNA and estimates of the age of subclades, SNPs.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Dubhthach on February 06, 2013, 04:28:58 PM
I wouldn't mind but the National Museum of Ireland have dozens of skeletons that they have dug up over the years. One example I can think of is an entire early medieval (pre-norman) cemetery from County Donegal. You would imagine that they would at least be able to retrieve some viable ancient-DNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on February 06, 2013, 05:42:25 PM

Is there any aY-DNA from Bell Beaker and later bronze age Britain?

I don't think so. As far as I'm aware there isn't any ancient Y-DNA from anywhere in Ireland or Britain.

Not a sausage. Not published anyway, and if anyone is working on it, they are keeping pretty quiet. I haven't even seen the mtDNA U5 from Glencurran Cave, Ireland (1500 BC) properly published. It was done for a TV programme as I recall. And that's the total sum of aDNA from Ireland that I know about. Britain has more published, but frankly not very well published on the whole.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: gtc on February 06, 2013, 05:59:03 PM
I wouldn't mind but the National Museum of Ireland have dozens of skeletons that they have dug up over the years. One example I can think of is an entire early medieval (pre-norman) cemetery from County Donegal. You would imagine that they would at least be able to retrieve some viable ancient-DNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)

The problem with old bones not exhumed and stored with DNA testing in mind is the risk of contamination by the many people who have handled them over the years. In the recent case of Richard III, the team took extraordinary steps to eliminate the possibility of contamination.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: sernam on February 07, 2013, 01:56:44 AM
But no Y, any relatives of Anjou folk to test it against in Britain (probably not angleterre, after  tje purges) or France?

wrt R3


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: inver2b1 on February 07, 2013, 08:05:44 AM
I wouldn't mind but the National Museum of Ireland have dozens of skeletons that they have dug up over the years. One example I can think of is an entire early medieval (pre-norman) cemetery from County Donegal. You would imagine that they would at least be able to retrieve some viable ancient-DNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I remember a cist grave being found near me about 25 years ago. I'm certain there were bone fragments found, everything is in some archive in The Natural History Museum.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on February 07, 2013, 08:17:57 AM
I watched the press conference live. I was a great achievement by the team from the University of Leicester.
This brings to mind the fact that Europe's, Abbeys, Cathedrals and Reliquaries are full of the bones of great and some not so great Kings and Queens. Aachen Cathedral has the giant skeleton of Charlemagne perfectly preserved in a golden casket.
The small church yard of Iona contains the last resting places of over 60 Kings of Scotland, Ireland and Norway, probably M222 as there is a documented paternal genealogy back to Niall.
The graves are unmarked as the markings have eroded with time. Perhaps it would be a worthwhile project to test the remains, document their ancestral relationships and give them a proper resting place with marked tombs, fit for kings, in this holy place.
"The ancient burial ground, called the Rèilig Odhrain (Eng: Oran's "burial place" or "cemetery"), contains the 12th century chapel of St Odhrán (said to be Columba's uncle), restored at the same time as the Abbey itself. It contains a number of medieval grave monuments. The abbey graveyard contains the graves of many early Scottish Kings, as well as kings from Ireland, Norway and France. Iona became the burial site for the kings of Dál Riata and their successors. Notable burials there include:
Cináed mac Ailpín, king of the Picts (also known today as "Kenneth I of Scotland")
Domnall mac Causantín, alternatively "king of the Picts" or "king of Alba" (i.e. Scotland; known as "Donald II")
Máel Coluim mac Domnaill, king of Scotland ("Malcolm I")
Donnchad mac Crínáin, king of Scotland ("Duncan I")
Mac Bethad mac Findlaích, king of Scotland ("Macbeth")
Domnall mac Donnchada, king of Scotland ("Domnall Bán" or "Donald III")
John Smith Labour Party Leader
In 1549 an inventory of 48 Scottish, 8 Norwegian and 4 Irish kings was recorded. None of these graves are now identifiable (their inscriptions were reported to have worn away at the end of the 17th century). Saint Baithin and Saint Failbhe may also be buried on the island.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iona

The latest news is that they will try to find the remains of Alfred the Great and Henry I.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/shortcuts/2013/feb/05/will-dig-up-alfred-the-great


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on February 07, 2013, 08:27:45 AM
I believe Paternal and Maternal Haplogroups and their matching frequency can tell us a very interesting story about our deep ancestry of Ireland but also can give clues to our more recent ancestors migratory experience.

I do not believe the power of this analysis is used to the full extent by 23andme, FTDNA or by Geno 2.0 for that matter.

First it is interesting to see what the latest research says about our ancestors migrations. In my case I use the latest data from J.P.Mallorys book "The Origin of the Irish". It tells the following story.

Table 8.1 mtDNA of Modern Irish Population

H 39%
U 13%
K 11%
J 10%
V 4%
T 2%
X 2%

Table 8.2 Subgroups of mtDNA haplogroup H

H1, H3, H4, H5a, H6, H7, H13
Table 8.3 mtDNA haplogroups of Ireland
Haplogroup. Home In Ireland (KYA)

U Greece. 7.3
X. Caucasus 5.5
H. S. France 5.5
V. N. Iberia. 5.5
T. N. Italy. 5.5
K. N. Italy 5.5
J. Near East 4.0

Table 8.4 genetic composition of modern Irish according to mtDNA haplogroups

Pre-farming
D, H, HV, I, K, T, T2, T4, U, U2, U4, U5, U5a, U5a1, U5b, V, W, X

Farming
J, J1a, J1b, J2, T1, U3

8.5 The proposed migration of R1b-14 ("Rory") from Iberia to Ireland.
Shows a clear migration route along the Atllantic facade from Iberia to Ireland

Table 8.5 Major Y chromosome halpogroups in Ireland
Pre-farming
R1a, R1a1, R1b3, IJK, PN3, N3, I1a, I1b2, I1c
Farming
E3b, G, J

Table 8.6 Distribution of Y chromosome haplogroup R1b among populations in Ireland. Irish surnames were compared to non Irish surnames.

Source. %R1b
Connacht. 98
Munster. 95
Ulster. 81
Leinster. 73
English. 63
Scottish. 53
Norman/Norse. 83

The Irish modal haplogroup (M222) and its ancestors
Shown the haplogroup tree from M269 > L11 > U106, P312 > L21, U152 > M222
M222 accounts for about 5% of Irishmen

Distribution of L21 (M529)
Map with peak in Ireland and distribution along the Atlantic Facade

Next I look at my over 1,000 Relative Finder matches and create a Network Diagram mapping Paternal Haplogroup to Maternal Haplogroup and Maternal Haplogroup to Paternal Haplogroup. This is consistent with the findings of Mallory but in addition it gives me clues to the more recent migrations of my ancestors.
The dominant L21 Paternal and H1 Maternal who stayed in Ireland is reflected in the diagram. Those ancestors who migrated to the US and were the earliest settlers of Minnesota and married with other Irish families or with the local German families in Minnesota as reflected in the U106 matches.
Again this is entirely consistent with my knowledge of my ancestors story and with the latest scientific studies.

The Paternal analysis gives the following picture.
RF Paternal Haplogroup Mapped to Maternal Haplogroup Matches. R 373, R1a 29, R1b 373, M269 1, L23 3, L11 44, U106 51, U152 25, P312 20, L21 124, M222 63, J24, I115, G11, E11, U106 51.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764829573/

The Maternal Analysis gives the following picture.
RF Maternal Haplogroup Mapped to Paternal Haplogroup Matches. Matches 1048 H 461, H1 119, H2 31, H3 45, H4, 23, H5 32, H6 24, H7 15, J 101, K 79, T 102, U 134.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764829567/

My conclusion is that our Paternal and Maternal Haplogroups and their matches tell us a much more powerful story than is currently available with Haplogroup Analysis alone or Ancestry Composition.
Even Geno 2.0 which is the benchmark for deep ancestry does not exploit this capability.

There is a case to be made for integrating the data available from RF and AC and Haplogroup Tree Mutation Mapper to give a more accurate picture of our ancestors migrations.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764374874/

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763591605/

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-migrations-dna/

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: SEJJ on February 07, 2013, 02:04:36 PM
I wouldn't mind but the National Museum of Ireland have dozens of skeletons that they have dug up over the years. One example I can think of is an entire early medieval (pre-norman) cemetery from County Donegal. You would imagine that they would at least be able to retrieve some viable ancient-DNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)

It's a good point, although GTC is right regarding contamination. There's quite a lot of cemeteries/graveyards out there, and i think it would be good practice to start testing say one in every ten if the funding and means are available. One site i know about contained an estimated 1000 bodies...even 50 or 100 of these being tested (MT, Y and Autosomal if all three are possible) would give us a massive insight. Even 5 or 10 every so often for a number of years could build up a valuable aDNA database.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on February 11, 2013, 08:57:44 PM
I've got an idea, let's just go with this:

"No one knows the origins of the Irish, or how Q-Celtic got to Ireland, but the best guess is that somehow people crossed Britain from northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Q-Celtic in Ireland is the greatest mystery in the study of languages and will never be solved. All that can be certain is that it did NOT arrive from Iberia!"

That's pretty darn close, isn't it?


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: avalon on February 14, 2013, 07:14:04 AM
I've got an idea, let's just go with this:

"No one knows the origins of the Irish, or how Q-Celtic got to Ireland, but the best guess is that somehow people crossed Britain from northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Q-Celtic in Ireland is the greatest mystery in the study of languages and will never be solved. All that can be certain is that it did NOT arrive from Iberia!"

That's pretty darn close, isn't it?

Not sure about the language origin but there are plenty of prehistoric links between Ireland and the Atlantic West from Brittany down to Iberia.

Barry Cunliffe is a  big cheerleader of these Atlantic connections whether it be the Megalithic passage graves and dolmens or Martitime Bell Beaker. I imagine that some element of the DNA from this period has survived to modern day Ireland even if these people didn't bring Celtic.









Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on February 14, 2013, 09:33:51 PM
I've got an idea, let's just go with this:

"No one knows the origins of the Irish, or how Q-Celtic got to Ireland, but the best guess is that somehow people crossed Britain from northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Q-Celtic in Ireland is the greatest mystery in the study of languages and will never be solved. All that can be certain is that it did NOT arrive from Iberia!"

That's pretty darn close, isn't it?

Not sure about the language origin but there are plenty of prehistoric links between Ireland and the Atlantic West from Brittany down to Iberia.

Barry Cunliffe is a  big cheerleader of these Atlantic connections whether it be the Megalithic passage graves and dolmens or Martitime Bell Beaker. I imagine that some element of the DNA from this period has survived to modern day Ireland even if these people didn't bring Celtic.









Cunnliffe may feel that way, but this thread is about Mallory's book on Irish origins. He is so bold as to say the Irish come from Britain!


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Dubhthach on February 15, 2013, 05:39:50 AM
Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: razyn on February 15, 2013, 08:13:54 AM
Just to assure myself that my impression was correct, I have skimmed through this entire thread again.  Only a handful of people have actually read the Mallory book, before posting; and I think only two of that handful (Heber and JeanM) have even mentioned that it is written "with humor."

I've rarely read an academic study that made me laugh as often.  Mallory's treatment is far from reverent, and the funny bits sneak up on one.  My wife keeps asking me what's funny, so I have had to read more of it aloud than is normally the case with such works.

I've just arrived at Chapter Eight (of ten), in which he's going to talk about the DNA.  So I still don't have anything to say about that.  But it's a very enjoyable and informative read.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Jean M on February 15, 2013, 12:08:32 PM
Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*

My heart is ticking over as normal, don't worry. I'm just heaving a sigh. Britain today is full of Sassenachs. But if you can mentally peel them off the picture, you see the place was full of Celts a couple of thousand years ago (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml). So paddling down the Celtic Rhine and traversing Celtic Britain before being drawn to the copper and gold of Celtic Ireland would be a completely Sassenach-free trip.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Mike Walsh on February 15, 2013, 01:05:39 PM
... I've rarely read an academic study that made me laugh as often.  Mallory's treatment is far from reverent, and the funny bits sneak up on one.  My wife keeps asking me what's funny, so I have had to read more of it aloud than is normally the case with such works....

Ironically, Mallory is from California.

I say that because I enjoy the dry and witty British humour. Another Mallory (played by Ralph Fiennes) in the James Bond Skyfall  has my favorite line, when he tells a politician during a hearing:
Quote
For the sake of variety, perhaps we can let the witness speak
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/Skyfall

(http://5yearproject.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/ralph-fiennes-in-skyfall1.jpg)


For the Celts there is some beautiful scenery from the Scottish Highlands.
http://surprise.visitscotland.com/whats_new/skyfall.aspx

... sorry, probably giving away too much of the film.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on February 15, 2013, 01:54:01 PM
Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*

Okay, then, Mallory suggest that the Irish come from the island to the east of them. Still, an amazingly bold statement! I thought they might have come from the Continent, but no, they come from the island next to them. No one knows where the people on the island east of Ireland came from.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on February 15, 2013, 02:08:11 PM
Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*

My heart is ticking over as normal, don't worry. I'm just heaving a sigh. Britain today is full of Sassenachs. But if you can mentally peel them off the picture, you see the place was full of Celts a couple of thousand years ago (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml). So paddling down the Celtic Rhine and traversing Celtic Britain before being drawn to the copper and gold of Celtic Ireland would be a completely Sassenach-free trip.

My comment had nothing to do with English or Saxons. What I'm saying is that to say the Irish come from their next door neighbor is a bit non-specific.

It would be like paying a genetic genealogist and having tell me I descend from my parents.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: avalon on February 15, 2013, 05:01:39 PM
Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*

Okay, then, Mallory suggest that the Irish come from the island to the east of them. Still, an amazingly bold statement! I thought they might have come from the Continent, but no, they come from the island next to them. No one knows where the people on the island east of Ireland came from.

I think it's quite likely that in prehistory some people may have traveled straight to what we now call Ireland from what we now call Brittany, or further afield, and not passed through what we now call Britain.

It's a heck of a long boat journey though!



Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on February 15, 2013, 05:20:15 PM
Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*

Okay, then, Mallory suggest that the Irish come from the island to the east of them. Still, an amazingly bold statement! I thought they might have come from the Continent, but no, they come from the island next to them. No one knows where the people on the island east of Ireland came from.

I think it's quite likely that in prehistory some people may have traveled straight to what we now call Ireland from what we now call Brittany, or further afield, and not passed through what we now call Britain.

It's a heck of a long boat journey though!



Well, it would be a long journey for Europeans, but Polynesians could have done it easily.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: alan trowel hands. on February 15, 2013, 08:15:14 PM
Just to assure myself that my impression was correct, I have skimmed through this entire thread again.  Only a handful of people have actually read the Mallory book, before posting; and I think only two of that handful (Heber and JeanM) have even mentioned that it is written "with humor."

I've rarely read an academic study that made me laugh as often.  Mallory's treatment is far from reverent, and the funny bits sneak up on one.  My wife keeps asking me what's funny, so I have had to read more of it aloud than is normally the case with such works.

I've just arrived at Chapter Eight (of ten), in which he's going to talk about the DNA.  So I still don't have anything to say about that.  But it's a very enjoyable and informative read.

its very humorous.  I hate people who take the whole origins and nationality thing so seriously and he kind of pokes fun a little at the sensativities of overly sensative people. Having lived in Northern Ireland for over 40 years Mallory knows all about this.  However, he just tells it how it is really and if that upsets people then tough.  His conclusion that Irelands overwhelmingly strongest contacts were with Britain may upset some people but its the reality.  One thing I note though is he is indicating a two-way flow of contact and migration.  The idea of an Irish Sea Provence has been mooted before.  He kind of brings out how this was a huge aspect throught prehistory albeit this had a couple of periods of breaking down in the Later Mesolithic and again in the period 600-300BC.  Its worth noting that those two periods seem to represent isolation of Ireland from any major influences from anywhere rather than shifting to another contact pattern. 

The latter period IMO is probably the one where Irish and British Celtic languages diverged from insular Celtic.  Before that, archaeology would suggest they were near identical and that is probably in line with what many linguists think.  He doesnt completely ignore continental aspects but he seems to feel that direct continental contact was much more rare and largely confined to NW France.  I suspect direct contact happened in the beaker period as NW France seems closer to Irish beaker traits than British ones.  However, this seems a relatively rare divergence.     


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: eochaidh on February 15, 2013, 08:33:50 PM
Just to assure myself that my impression was correct, I have skimmed through this entire thread again.  Only a handful of people have actually read the Mallory book, before posting; and I think only two of that handful (Heber and JeanM) have even mentioned that it is written "with humor."

I've rarely read an academic study that made me laugh as often.  Mallory's treatment is far from reverent, and the funny bits sneak up on one.  My wife keeps asking me what's funny, so I have had to read more of it aloud than is normally the case with such works.

I've just arrived at Chapter Eight (of ten), in which he's going to talk about the DNA.  So I still don't have anything to say about that.  But it's a very enjoyable and informative read.

its very humorous.  I hate people who take the whole origins and nationality thing so seriously and he kind of pokes fun a little at the sensativities of overly sensative people. Having lived in Northern Ireland for over 40 years Mallory knows all about this.  However, he just tells it how it is really and if that upsets people then tough.  His conclusion that Irelands overwhelmingly strongest contacts were with Britain may upset some people but its the reality.  One thing I note though is he is indicating a two-way flow of contact and migration.  The idea of an Irish Sea Provence has been mooted before.  He kind of brings out how this was a huge aspect throught prehistory albeit this had a couple of periods of breaking down in the Later Mesolithic and again in the period 600-300BC.  Its worth noting that those two periods seem to represent isolation of Ireland from any major influences from anywhere rather than shifting to another contact pattern. 

The latter period IMO is probably the one where Irish and British Celtic languages diverged from insular Celtic.  Before that, archaeology would suggest they were near identical and that is probably in line with what many linguists think.  He doesnt completely ignore continental aspects but he seems to feel that direct continental contact was much more rare and largely confined to NW France.  I suspect direct contact happened in the beaker period as NW France seems closer to Irish beaker traits than British ones.  However, this seems a relatively rare divergence.     

So your defense of Mallory's not giving origins of the Irish beyond the neighboring island is that people are sensitive about nationality?

My complaint is that Mallory's saying that the origins of the Irish is the neighboring island to the east is very non-specific.

As I have said, it is like paying a gentic genealogist and having him tell you that you are descended from your parents.

Do you have another defense for Mallory other that the nationality strawman?


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: gtc on February 16, 2013, 08:28:57 AM
Do you have another defense for Mallory other that the nationality strawman?

Surely the only person who can properly "defend" Mallory's theories is Mallory himself.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: razyn on February 16, 2013, 09:30:21 AM
Do you have another defense for Mallory other that the nationality strawman?

Surely the only person who can properly "defend" Mallory's theories is Mallory himself.

And surely the only population sufficiently informed to criticize such theories should consist of those who actually have read the book?

Many other, deeper, and non-British cultural, genetic and linguistic sources are treated in its pages.  Some of them are treated a bit unkindly, but they are treated.  Older works and theories are cited and discussed, notably including essentially silly ones like the Book of Invasions.  Any accusation of his being "non-specific" is just underinformed.

Quote
Although the historical evidence is quite meagre, the Romans did take some interest in Ireland that went beyond the niche tourist market for those who longed to see cows explode in a serpent-free environment.
  Mallory (2013), 192.

That summation is at the end of an otherwise perfectly serious paragraph, with six footnotes.  The pages that went before it were specific, and those that come after are specific.  And that's just one paragraph in the sixth chapter, about the Iron Age. 

Really, it's well worth reading.  Mallory is intelligent, well informed, and has been dealing with stupid questions (in the classroom) for forty-odd years.  His book could easily deal with yours, should you bother to read it.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: gtc on February 16, 2013, 05:04:31 PM
And surely the only population sufficiently informed to criticize such theories should consist of those who actually have read the book?

Naturally.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: gtc on February 16, 2013, 10:26:33 PM
Mallory was interviewed about his book on the RTE 1 Radio program "Today with Pat Kenny". You can listen online here:

http://tinyurl.com/bueon9c

Give it a few seconds to start up and then fast forward to 1:04:00 and it runs for 19 minutes.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: SEJJ on February 17, 2013, 08:20:42 PM
Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*

Okay, then, Mallory suggest that the Irish come from the island to the east of them. Still, an amazingly bold statement! I thought they might have come from the Continent, but no, they come from the island next to them. No one knows where the people on the island east of Ireland came from.

I think it's quite likely that in prehistory some people may have traveled straight to what we now call Ireland from what we now call Brittany, or further afield, and not passed through what we now call Britain.

It's a heck of a long boat journey though!



Well, it would be a long journey for Europeans, but Polynesians could have done it easily.

I can imagine the Sun headlines xD:

"IRISH DESCEND FROM POLYNESIAN BOATMEN"


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: OConnor on February 18, 2013, 09:47:33 AM
I haven't read the Mallory Book. Probably won't, so I read other's interpretations with interest.

If people arrived in Ireland in the mesolithic from Islands to the east..perhaps many such people came to the isles by way of Doggerland, as well as other places like France or Iberia. I would look at what type of water vessels mesolithic people used, and how far out to sea they might be willing to travel in one. Island hopping would be my guess, rather than open sea travel in a skin or log boat.
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/pre_norman_history/mesolithic_age.html


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: rms2 on February 18, 2013, 11:25:59 AM
I might get a copy eventually, but it doesn't seem as urgent to me as it did when I first heard about the book.

I am looking forward to the coming years, if I'm around long enough, and the advent of more and more numerous and reliable ancient y-dna test results. Now that will be interesting.


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on February 21, 2013, 04:17:22 PM
Just to assure myself that my impression was correct, I have skimmed through this entire thread again.  Only a handful of people have actually read the Mallory book, before posting; and I think only two of that handful (Heber and JeanM) have even mentioned that it is written "with humor."

I've rarely read an academic study that made me laugh as often.  Mallory's treatment is far from reverent, and the funny bits sneak up on one.  My wife keeps asking me what's funny, so I have had to read more of it aloud than is normally the case with such works.

I've just arrived at Chapter Eight (of ten), in which he's going to talk about the DNA.  So I still don't have anything to say about that.  But it's a very enjoyable and informative read.

Razyn,

I agree, it is the first time I was laughing out loud reading a book of this nature. It is a pity that the DNA treatment, by the nature of the beast, is already outdated. I would hope that NGS large scale sequencing such as that provided Tyler Smith would give us better definition. Unfortunately my initial Geno 2.0 results do not give a warm and fuzzy feeling that this will happen anytime soon. We can produce the raw data, but the analysis of context is still sadly lacking.
The good news is that the hobbyists are still ahead by a good measure.
The bad news is that the hobbyists are still ahead by a good measure.:).


Title: Re: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory
Post by: Heber on March 04, 2013, 03:35:48 AM
Here is a good review from the Irish Times.
I just finished Of Irish Origins by Professor Catherine Nash. Well worth a read.

The Origins of the Irish
JOHN GRENHAM

In his introduction to the work of the same name that he has just published (Thames and Hudson, €25.15), J.P. Mallory writes “an entire book devoted to The Origins of the Irish is just asking for trouble”. And then dives right in.

The book provides a comprehensive overview of all the current evidence for the origins of the people(s) who inhabited Ireland in the 5th century A.D., around the time of Niall of the Nine Hostages. Mallory covers cosmology, physics, geology, plate tectonics, climate change, archaeology, Irish origin stories, medical genetics, DNA studies, and the history of the Irish language.

Such breadth is only possible because of his genius for synthesis and summary, lightened with a touch of sharp wit. One example: in looking at the constituent elements of a human body, he works out that it would take the uranium contained in 80 million bodies to produce an atom bomb. And then points out that 70 million people claim Irish descent. The implication is that UN weapons inspectors should be on the lookout, in case we reach critical mass.

His own academic expertise is in archaeology and Indo-European linguistics (he is Emeritus Professor of Prehistoric Archaeology at QUB) and these are the parts in which the evidence is most closely argued. But every single section is scrupulous about evidence and logic.

Nonetheless, the book remains joyously non-academic, while still managing to retain some of the best elements of a textbook. Each of the 10 chapters ends with a bullet-point summary of the conclusions reached or uncertainties still remaining. Wickedly, and tellingly, the end of the chapter on genetic evidence provides two mutually contradictory sets of conclusions.

With unmatched clarity and humour, the book challenges every single received notion of ‘Irishness’. It is a masterpiece and I’ll be going back to it again and again.