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Title: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 01, 2012, 08:38:23 PM
As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.  

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 01, 2012, 09:31:04 PM
I also mached FEPAF on Ysearch with a distance of 5.  Which I find very i teresti g


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Maliclavelli on November 01, 2012, 11:22:53 PM
As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This give me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b. 

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?


Yours is the religious/mythical version. Semargl on another forum and about another haplogroup has given the scientific/not mythical one:

”Here is an example:
source: http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/kit/49263/
we have a haplotype of the Russian-Carpathian branch
dys393 - 13
dys390 - 25
dys19 - 16
dys391 - 12
dys426 - 12
dys388 - 12
dys439 10
dys389_1 13
dys392_2 11
dys389y 30

At the same time, his close relatives, these 10 markers, a genetic distance = 2!
At the same time, we are full! match on 10 markers with:
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/query/
3 haplotypes from the Kyrgyz branch Z93+, L342+, L657-
1 - Z93+, L342+, L657+
5 - Z93+, L342-
3 - Z284+, L448+, L176+
1 - Z284+, L448-, Z287+, Z288+
109 - Z284+, L448+
6 - Z284+
22 - Z280+, L365+
12 - Z280+, Z92+
6 - Russian-Carpathian branch Z280+
4 - Z280+

etc.

As we can see, even within the Z280, we have a full match with haplotype in 4! very different branches, but we have a long distance to a close relative”.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 02, 2012, 10:22:07 AM
I've also matched FEPAF with a distance of 5.  Is this a scientific match?   I'm wondering because I've read that a portion of Ossetians (The Jassic People) have lived in Hungary - which I also match. 

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b. 

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?


As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This give me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b. 

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?


Yours is the religious/mythical version. Semargl on another forum and about another haplogroup has given the scientific/not mythical one:

”Here is an example:
source: http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/kit/49263/
we have a haplotype of the Russian-Carpathian branch
dys393 - 13
dys390 - 25
dys19 - 16
dys391 - 12
dys426 - 12
dys388 - 12
dys439 10
dys389_1 13
dys392_2 11
dys389y 30

At the same time, his close relatives, these 10 markers, a genetic distance = 2!
At the same time, we are full! match on 10 markers with:
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/query/
3 haplotypes from the Kyrgyz branch Z93+, L342+, L657-
1 - Z93+, L342+, L657+
5 - Z93+, L342-
3 - Z284+, L448+, L176+
1 - Z284+, L448-, Z287+, Z288+
109 - Z284+, L448+
6 - Z284+
22 - Z280+, L365+
12 - Z280+, Z92+
6 - Russian-Carpathian branch Z280+
4 - Z280+

etc.

As we can see, even within the Z280, we have a full match with haplotype in 4! very different branches, but we have a long distance to a close relative”.



Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 02, 2012, 10:33:56 AM
To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to be considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 02, 2012, 10:43:33 AM
That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 02, 2012, 10:51:59 AM
That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear.  

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF .  

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have sent a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 02, 2012, 11:14:57 AM
Ok.   I'll write Gatuev and let you know if I get a response.  Please do the same if you find out any information from Gatuev - ethnicity, location, etc. 

If we both match Gatuev I'm surprised that we do not have a match on ysearch. I am new at this though, so please excuse my lack of experience. 

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have send a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 02, 2012, 11:35:13 AM
What is your ysearch id number?

Ok.   I'll write Gatuev and let you know if I get a response.  Please do the same if you find out any information from Gatuev - ethnicity, location, etc. 

If we both match Gatuev I'm surprised that we do not have a match on ysearch. I am new at this though, so please excuse my lack of experience. 

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have send a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Maliclavelli on November 02, 2012, 11:39:02 AM
To compare with someone is worth only if they belong to the same haplogroup.
Pigmon is R-L2+, i.e. a subclade of R-U152, and should compare only with people who belong to his haplogroup, then he with us and with FEPAF has nothing to do: many thousands of years of separation. Full stop.

Saje and me, belonging to R-Z2105+ (I certainly, he is presupposed) may compare with FEPAF, but also amongst the R-L23/Z2105 there may be people very distant: see what Semargl wrote.
FEPAF matches many people only because his 51 markers are some of the slowest mutating ones.

It isn’t said that Western European R-L23* are close to Middle Eastern ones: they could be close by their STRs values, but very distant in the origin. For this I said to Saje to test Z2105 and after L277 and L584. If he is negative for these last two, he may compare with our Europeans, but I have already said which is probably his origin: i.e. the Eastern European L23*, and closer to who has DYS464=14-14-15-16.

Full stop.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Mike Walsh on November 02, 2012, 11:43:29 AM
To compare with someone is worth only if they belong to the same haplogroup.
Pigmon is R-L2+, i.e. a subclade of R-U152, and should compare only with people who belong to his haplogroup, then he with us and with FEPAF has nothing to do: many thousands of years of separation. Full stop...

Maliclavelli is absolutely right. Deep clade SNP testing puts you on the right sub-branches and help filter out false matches.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 02, 2012, 11:48:04 AM
Good to know.  Do you think Gatuev is worth contacting?

Also, if I am negative L277 and 584, is that as far as I can test?  So this means that I am eastern European origin and that it stops there?  I'm wondering how close I can pinpoint my origin as I am looking for a paternal side that I never had contact with beyond my father. 

Thank you. 

To compare with someone is worth only if they belong to the same haplogroup.
Pigmon is R-L2+, i.e. a subclade of R-U152, and should compare only with people who belong to his haplogroup, then he with us and with FEPAF has nothing to do: many thousands of years of separation. Full stop.

Saje and me, belonging to R-Z2105+ (I certainly, he is presupposed) may compare with FEPAF, but also amongst the R-L23/Z2105 there may be people very distant: see what Semargl wrote.
FEPAF matches many people only because his 51 markers are some of the slowest mutating ones.

It isn’t said that Western European R-L23* are close to Middle Eastern ones: they could be close by their STRs values, but very distant in the origin. For this I said to Saje to test Z2105 and after L277 and L584. If he is negative for these last two, he may compare with our Europeans, but I have already said which is probably his origin: i.e. the Eastern European L23*, and closer to who has DYS464=14-14-15-16.

Full stop.



Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 02, 2012, 12:07:48 PM
To compare with someone is worth only if they belong to the same haplogroup.
Pigmon is R-L2+, i.e. a subclade of R-U152, and should compare only with people who belong to his haplogroup, then he with us and with FEPAF has nothing to do: many thousands of years of separation. Full stop...

Maliclavelli is absolutely right. Deep clade SNP testing puts you on the right sub-branches and help filter out false matches.

Yes, and I had that in mind when I started this thread.  I was hoping to obtain additional information from Gatuev thinking that he may have some deep clade information.  To find deep clade information to compare to in areas of the world like this is almost impossible.  However, we keep trying!

Saje, it look as though we are a genetic distance of 23 out of 67 compared.

Maybe R1b didn't come from the steepe after all!


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: acekon on November 02, 2012, 12:15:47 PM
Good to know.  Do you think Gatuev is worth contacting?

Also, if I am negative L277 and 584, is that as far as I can test?  So this means that I am eastern European origin and that it stops there?  I'm wondering how close I can pinpoint my origin as I am looking for a paternal side that I never had contact with beyond my father.  

Thank you.  

To compare with someone is worth only if they belong to the same haplogroup.
Pigmon is R-L2+, i.e. a subclade of R-U152, and should compare only with people who belong to his haplogroup, then he with us and with FEPAF has nothing to do: many thousands of years of separation. Full stop.

Saje and me, belonging to R-Z2105+ (I certainly, he is presupposed) may compare with FEPAF, but also amongst the R-L23/Z2105 there may be people very distant: see what Semargl wrote.
FEPAF matches many people only because his 51 markers are some of the slowest mutating ones.

It isn’t said that Western European R-L23* are close to Middle Eastern ones: they could be close by their STRs values, but very distant in the origin. For this I said to Saje to test Z2105 and after L277 and L584. If he is negative for these last two, he may compare with our Europeans, but I have already said which is probably his origin: i.e. the Eastern European L23*, and closer to who has DYS464=14-14-15-16.

Full stop.


Don,t all L51 U-152,L277,L584,Z2105* have  in common base markers M173_M420_M343_P25_P297_M269_L23_L150 ? These snps are found from Black Sea-Danube basin to Western Europe; inferring a common denominator in shared ancestry?When  L51 and Z2150 split would it not seem reasonable for slow mutating str's to also show this pattern, of being shared also among these same groups, mapping across this same region? Snp mutation split  L150-U-152 could be within 100-150 generation or less, so why not share slow mutating markers[ str's] between the two groups?


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Maliclavelli on November 02, 2012, 12:39:35 PM
Don,t all L51 U-152,L277,L584,Z2105* have  in common base markers M173_M420_M343_P25_P297_M269_L23_L150 ? These snps are found from Black Sea-Danube basin to Western Europe; inferring a common denominator in shared ancestry?When  L51 and Z2150 split would it not seem reasonable for slow mutating str's to also show this pattern, of being shared also among these same groups, mapping across this same region? Snp mutation split  L150-U-152 could be within 100-150 generation or less, so why not share slow mutating markers[ str's] between the two groups?

M420 not, because it is R1a*, then another haplogroup. I have spent many years to say that it isn’t said that “Ex Oriente lux”,  light may have come from West. See also what I have said for hg. R1a: the most ancient subclades are in Western Europe and not in Asia or Middle East: R1a-M420 and R1a1-M459.
The same is for R1b1: Middle Eastern ones, with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23 aren’t the ancestors of the European subclades, like R-L23/Z2105+ but also L277+ or L584+ aren’t the ancestors of R-L51. We are searching for an R-L23*, i.e Z2105-. Let’s see where we’ll find it.
But I think having demonstrated that the subclades of Z2105+ but not L277+ or L584+ are in Iberia (see 1KGP), then presuppose a migration from Tuscany/Italy, and Tuscans have also the subclades of L51* not P312 or U106. These for me are strong signals of an Italian origin. We will see.
Theories are demonstrated by proofs only.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: acekon on November 02, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Don,t all L51 U-152,L277,L584,Z2105* have  in common base markers M173_M420_M343_P25_P297_M269_L23_L150 ? These snps are found from Black Sea-Danube basin to Western Europe; inferring a common denominator in shared ancestry?When  L51 and Z2150 split would it not seem reasonable for slow mutating str's to also show this pattern, of being shared also among these same groups, mapping across this same region? Snp mutation split  L150-U-152 could be within 100-150 generation or less, so why not share slow mutating markers[ str's] between the two groups?

M420 not, because it is R1a*, then another haplogroup. I have spent many years to say that it isn’t said that “Ex Oriente lux”,  light may have come from West. See also what I have said for hg. R1a: the most ancient subclades are in Western Europe and not in Asia or Middle East: R1a-M420 and R1a1-M459.
The same is for R1b1: Middle Eastern ones, with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23 aren’t the ancestors of the European subclades, like R-L23/Z2105+ but also L277+ or L584+ aren’t the ancestors of R-L51. We are searching for an R-L23*, i.e Z2105-. Let’s see where we’ll find it.
But I think having demonstrated that the subclades of Z2105+ but not L277+ or L584+ are in Iberia (see 1KGP), then presuppose a migration from Tuscany/Italy, and Tuscans have also the subclades of L51* not P312 or U106. These for me are strong signals of an Italian origin. We will see.
Theories are demonstrated by proofs only.



 Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 02, 2012, 01:26:23 PM
Don,t all L51 U-152,L277,L584,Z2105* have  in common base markers M173_M420_M343_P25_P297_M269_L23_L150 ? These snps are found from Black Sea-Danube basin to Western Europe; inferring a common denominator in shared ancestry?When  L51 and Z2150 split would it not seem reasonable for slow mutating str's to also show this pattern, of being shared also among these same groups, mapping across this same region? Snp mutation split  L150-U-152 could be within 100-150 generation or less, so why not share slow mutating markers[ str's] between the two groups?

M420 not, because it is R1a*, then another haplogroup. I have spent many years to say that it isn’t said that “Ex Oriente lux”,  light may have come from West. See also what I have said for hg. R1a: the most ancient subclades are in Western Europe and not in Asia or Middle East: R1a-M420 and R1a1-M459.
The same is for R1b1: Middle Eastern ones, with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23 aren’t the ancestors of the European subclades, like R-L23/Z2105+ but also L277+ or L584+ aren’t the ancestors of R-L51. We are searching for an R-L23*, i.e Z2105-. Let’s see where we’ll find it.
But I think having demonstrated that the subclades of Z2105+ but not L277+ or L584+ are in Iberia (see 1KGP), then presuppose a migration from Tuscany/Italy, and Tuscans have also the subclades of L51* not P312 or U106. These for me are strong signals of an Italian origin. We will see.
Theories are demonstrated by proofs only.

Admittedly, I am not nearly as educated in genetics as a lot you guys on these forums thus, I depend on information I can find.  One thing I have noticed is that my idea of a theory as I was taught in school is more like definition number 2 of the following from dicitionary.com:

the·o·ry
   [thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Show IPA
noun, plural the·o·ries.
1.
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.

2.
a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. Synonyms: idea, notion hypothesis, postulate. Antonyms: practice, verification, corroboration, substantiation.

Number 2 fits my particular way of thinking better as I wonder a lot about my origins and it is fun to research history.

So my "theory-n.2" is that this web site has some ideas of how people in the Levant got to Spain,  Sicily, etc. and then the rest of Europe.  Not to say that they were all R1b, or all any other haplogroup as they were mixed.  From: http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art150.htm

"It has been suggested that the Phoenicians, essentially a Semitic people, arrived in the Middle East from the Persian Gulf sometime around 3000 BC. However, the evidence for this remains inconclusive. Today, their primary descendants include the Lebanese, Palestinians, Phoenicia and its cities.many Syrians and some Egyptians. Beyond the shores of the eastern Mediterranean, the people of Sicily, Spain, Sardinia, Tunisia and Malta boast at least some Phoenician blood, as well as a distinguished Phoenician cultural heritage."

"The Phoenicians' Semitic language was closely related to Hebrew and distantly related to Aramaic and to the Semitic languages of Mesopotamia, such as Assyrian and Babylonian, yet Phoenician civilization was clearly distinct from these other cultures. By AD 100, Aramaic had become the popular language of Phoenicia, but Carthaginians spoke the Punic dialect of Phoenician until the sixth century. (This Carthaginian language was essentially similar to "classical" Phoenician, but characterized by what are thought to have been some "native" north African elements.) The place name Gades (now Cadiz) comes from the Phoenician word for wall. The word bible comes from the Greek word for book, which the Greeks took from the name of the Phoenician city of Byblos, famous for its papyrus, a product they imported in vast quantities."

"The Phoenicians' arrival in western Sicily, circa 800 BC, coincided with the Greek settlement of the island's eastern areas. Initially, the Phoenicians' Sicilian cities were primarily trading centers, while the Greeks sought full-scale colonization of Sicily. Eventually, the Greeks fought a war against the Sicels of eastern Sicily, though the Phoenicians seem to have co-existed peacefully with the Elymians of the west, effectively co-founding towns such as Eryx (Erice)."

Could this be why our R1b snps do not match the ones from the steppe nor the one from the Middle East?  Maybe a mass migration from the Indus Valley after the melting of glacers just at the end of the LGM?

By the way, I am quite confident that Richard Rocca would be on here.  As he was most likely affected by the hurricane he may not have power and/or computer service at present.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Maliclavelli on November 02, 2012, 01:44:29 PM
Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 02, 2012, 01:46:47 PM
My ysearch:  XQE85.  

It now says that I am a genetic distance of 4 from    "FEPAF" Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Within how many generations would that make our relation?

Thanks

What is your ysearch id number?

Ok.   I'll write Gatuev and let you know if I get a response.  Please do the same if you find out any information from Gatuev - ethnicity, location, etc. 

If we both match Gatuev I'm surprised that we do not have a match on ysearch. I am new at this though, so please excuse my lack of experience. 

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have send a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: acekon on November 02, 2012, 01:52:45 PM
Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?


Exactly; I agree.

 However all very plausible R1b from the North into Levant, could have also come from;

 Regions like "Scythopolis" . First the Philistines then the Scythians, inhabited the area. Indo-Europeans most likely from the Balkan region, and Black Sea. Just like Sumerians and Mitanni, it is apparent that these were foreign rulers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines
http://bibleencyclopedia.com/philistines.htm

"The Philistines were an uncircumcised people inhabiting the shore plain between Gezer and Gaza in Southwestern Palestine (see PHILISTIA). The name Palestine itself (Hebrew pelesheth) refers to their country. The word means "migrants," and they came from another country. They are noticed 286 times in the Old Testament, and their country 8 times. "


"Its Greek name Scythopolis is very likely derived from a colony of Scythians who invaded Palestine in the seventh century B.C."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13648b.htm


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 02, 2012, 01:57:13 PM
What does the asterisks signify - "R-L584*"

Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?



Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 02, 2012, 02:11:31 PM
What does the asterisks signify - "R-L584*"

Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?


Saje,
It means all possible downstream SNP's have been tested and the outcomes of those downstream were negative.  If it had been written R-L584+ it means the outcome of the test was positive but there are downstream SNPs yet to test.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 02, 2012, 02:14:24 PM
Thanks!

What does the asterisks signify - "R-L584*"

Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?


Saje,
It means all possible downstream SNP's have been tested and the outcomes of those downstream were negative.  If it had been written R-L584+ it means the outcome of the test was positive but there are downstream SNPs yet to test.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 02, 2012, 02:20:01 PM
It depends on how many markers were compared and which markers they were.  I have just gotten a match with a genetic distance of 4 with surname Chew.  The results for that one are:

You and Fredrick Chew match at 17/20 markers.

There is a 50% chance that you and Fredrick Chew shared a common ancestor within the last 50 generations.

Yours may be different however.
My ysearch:  XQE85.  

It now says that I am a genetic distance of 4 from    "FEPAF" Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Within how many generations would that make our relation?

Thanks

What is your ysearch id number?

Ok.   I'll write Gatuev and let you know if I get a response.  Please do the same if you find out any information from Gatuev - ethnicity, location, etc. 

If we both match Gatuev I'm surprised that we do not have a match on ysearch. I am new at this though, so please excuse my lack of experience. 

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have send a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 02, 2012, 02:22:48 PM
51 markers were compared.  Says genetic distance of 4.  This is with Gatuav.

It depends on how many markers were compared and which markers they were.  I have just gotten a match with a genetic distance of 4 with surname Chew.  The results for that one are:

You and Fredrick Chew match at 17/20 markers.

There is a 50% chance that you and Fredrick Chew shared a common ancestor within the last 50 generations.

Yours may be different however.
My ysearch:  XQE85.  

It now says that I am a genetic distance of 4 from    "FEPAF" Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Within how many generations would that make our relation?

Thanks

What is your ysearch id number?

Ok.   I'll write Gatuev and let you know if I get a response.  Please do the same if you find out any information from Gatuev - ethnicity, location, etc. 

If we both match Gatuev I'm surprised that we do not have a match on ysearch. I am new at this though, so please excuse my lack of experience. 

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have send a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 02, 2012, 02:48:13 PM
I used the TMRCA calculator on Genebase.  There are other calculators but you would need to punch in all the values for each STR for both you and Gatuav to get an accurate answer because each allel has a different mutation rate.  If it comes out close to mine a difference of 4 could be as far apart as 50 generation X 30 years per generation or 1500 ybp (512C.E.).  And that is only at a 50% chance of a shared ancestor!


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 02, 2012, 03:09:03 PM
Maliclavelli,
It seems you are totally correct again as far as the comparisons go and also when you mentioned that my strs have not so much of an Italian signature as more of a French one. 

I did another comparison but narrowed it to Western Europe and R1b L-2 and the results were:  closest French, Belgian, Swiss, Austrian, German and a few Dutch, Spanish.

As far as the migrations go, I think the reasons for the lack of answers may be because of multiple migrations over the history of man.  For instance if R1b migrated to the Middle from the steppe, where were their ancient ancestors from?  Possibly a much earlier migration from Indus valley?

Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?



Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 02, 2012, 03:32:00 PM
Is there a high concentration of R1b in the Steppe?  It's really interesting that I match someone from Ossetia.  I did a search on his haplogroup - Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a, and it said it is Assyrian with a high concentration in the Caucasus and Armenia. 

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.  

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?



Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 02, 2012, 03:51:50 PM
That is the subject of many discussions.  Here is some reading on the subject from http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/the-proto-indo-europeans-and-their-early-descendants-proto-languages-and-homelands/:

"R1b levels are highest in Spain and the Western British Isles. The launching point for the R1b seems to have been the Maykop Culture of 5500 YBP. From there, they spread all over Europe.

The Maykop Culture was an early PIE split that existed between the Taman Peninsula just east of the Crimea east to the Dagestan border in the area that includes part of Southern Russia east of the Crimea, Adygea, Karachay-Cherkessia, Kabardino-Balkaria, North Ossetia, Ingushetia and Chechnya in the Caucasus.

The center of the culture was around Maykop in Adygea (Circassia). The region is now inhabited by peoples of the Caucasus and is heavily Muslim.

An explanation:

    The Proto-Indo-Europeans belonged both R1a and R1b. Their homeland was in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, in what is known as the Kurgan culture (7000-2200 BCE).
Is there a high concentration of R1b in the Steppe?  It's really interesting that I match someone from Ossetia.  I did a search on his haplogroup - Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a, and it said it is Assyrian with a high concentration in the Caucasus and Armenia."


Interestingly Dagestan is where the Lak people are primarily located.  

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.  

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?



Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 03, 2012, 12:19:46 PM
Here is some information I recently found and it is almost the same idea I have about the possible route of R1b out of Africa:

Permission to reprint here given to me by Paul:

 I have just been tested for my Haplogroup R1b M343 (M168, M89, M9, M45, M207, M173, R1b M343). I find that the migration routes that the genebase companies use are not very accurate. I have been trying to research a more accurate path of my people and your blog gave me some more things to think about. I am a newcomer to this research so maybe you could provide more insite. I believe my people were similair to the modern pygmies like the Khosian people of east Africa. Unlike the genebase companies that depict a line going across the Red Sea, I believe my people may have travelled north up the West Coast of the Red Sea possibly later giving rise to the Kushite people who ruled Egypt for some time. M89 was part of the second wave of migration out of Africa so I assume they made their way through the Saharan gateway and spent a few thousand years living and breeding in the Fertile Cresent and the Levant. From there I believe they took refuge in Anatolia until the great flood where they headed east to the edge of the Caspian Sea. Here they gave rise to the Lezgine people of Azerbaijan. M9 became early farmers in Europe as part of the neolithic culture and remained in the Caucasus region for sometime. I believe the Lezgines may possibly be my indigenous group however my Grandfather Father and Son are very Basque looking . M45 My people then moved north along the Danube river and finally made their way south west to the Bay of Biscay (Iberia) where they gave rise to the Basque people. After the Ice Age finished they started to make their way into Europe (Cro Magnon)then to the british Isles where they gave rise to the Brtigantes tribe. Alternatively they may have gone north to the Hindu Kush (M45) but I do find it strange that they would go all the way to that part of Asia.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 03, 2012, 05:05:47 PM
Here is a chart that shows Ossetes(Ossetians) are comprised of 42.6% R1b.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus

Wow! That is a lot higher than I thought it would be.  Also they have classified this language group:  IE (Iranic, NE)

Is there a high concentration of R1b in the Steppe?  It's really interesting that I match someone from Ossetia.  I did a search on his haplogroup - Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a, and it said it is Assyrian with a high concentration in the Caucasus and Armenia.  

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.  

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?



Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: saje on November 03, 2012, 05:45:36 PM
That is quite high - 42.6%.  Once my Z2105 test comes back, I'm curious to take the L277 and L584 test as I match FEPAF (Ossetian).  So far I have closely matched with all Eastern Europeans - Slovak, Czech, Polish, Hungarian.  So a match with an Ossetian is interesting - distance of 4 out of 51 markers compared.  Maybe I'll be positive downstream of Z2105.  Either way, it's interesting; though I am somewhat skeptical of Ysearch's matches as markers are typed in manually.  It would be nice for all research labs to combine their findings.  In the end, I suppose it's a business...


Here is a chart that shows Ossetes(Ossetians) are comprised of 42.6% R1b.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus

Wow! That is a lot higher than I thought it would be.  Also they have classified this language group:  IE (Iranic, NE)

Is there a high concentration of R1b in the Steppe?  It's really interesting that I match someone from Ossetia.  I did a search on his haplogroup - Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a, and it said it is Assyrian with a high concentration in the Caucasus and Armenia.  

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.  

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?



Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: gtc on November 04, 2012, 01:52:57 AM
What does the asterisks signify - "R-L584*"

Saje,
It means all possible downstream SNP's have been tested and the outcomes of those downstream were negative.  If it had been written R-L584+ it means the outcome of the test was positive but there are downstream SNPs yet to test.

Rather than all possible, I'd prefer to make a subtle change and say all "currently testable" downstream SNPs. There may be other SNPs downstream which are known, but not yet available for test. In short, the star (*) means keep on the lookout for new testing opportunities.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 04, 2012, 09:36:51 AM
Good idea.  More accurately stated.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: palamede on November 05, 2012, 03:28:05 PM
Here is a chart that shows Ossetes(Ossetians) are comprised of 42.6% R1b.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus

Wow! That is a lot higher than I thought it would be.  Also they have classified this language group:  IE (Iranic, NE)


I think the right studies are  Balanovsky 2011 (with n=230 for Iron and n=127 for Digor ).
The result of Nasidze 2004 (n=129) for haplogroup I has been contested for systematic  false results.
Rosser2000 (n=47) is too old and too weak to be considered. Therefore, the result 42,6% for R1b must be forgotten.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Richard Rocca on November 05, 2012, 04:57:04 PM
Hello all. My power was restored last night, so I haven't been able to reply sooner.

All close matches across haplogroups are mere coincidences.

We all have theories, but the credibility of those theories have a weight based on the quality and quantity of facts supporting the theory. A Phoenician R1b link fails many basic smoke tests.

1. The Phoenicians lived thousands of years after R1b was well established in Europe. The likelihood that the known Bell Beaker R1b1a2 samples from Germany were "Phoenicians" is almost zero.
2. The Phoenicians were a known Semitic speaking people to Indo-European speakers like the Romans, Celts and Greeks. Why associate R1b with a people who neither spoke IE nor originated from IE speaking areas (North Africa & the Middle East)?


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 05, 2012, 05:40:55 PM
Hello Richard,

Just glad to hear you are ok and that you got power back in Jersey!


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Richard Rocca on November 05, 2012, 08:10:29 PM
Hello Richard,

Just glad to hear you are ok and that you got power back in Jersey!

Thanks Curtis. We were only inconvenienced by having to take cold showers. Nothing like the devastation in the southern part of the state.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: acekon on November 06, 2012, 12:26:51 PM
To some members on the forum anything from the bible is highly offensive, and apparently also the terms R1b and I.E. associated together so we have to be careful not to offend anyone. Nevertheless we do have names that are derived from[Ashkenaz-Ashkenazi- In the rabbinic literature, the kingdom of Ashkenaz was first associated with the Scythian region, then later with the Slavic territories], or are similar to biblical texts[Ararat] and fairly recent studies defined in these areas .
For example Ararat

 Jeremiah 51:27

  " kingdom of Ashkenaz was called together with Ararat and Minni against Babylon"

Depending on the study,  areas  associated with elevated levels of R1b in select areas of the Caucasus[Digor Ossets/Armenians] and NW Iran[Gilak/Lurs] there are also non I.E groups with pockets of R1b.
 For example (Ararat Valley) surrounding and adjacent regions Karabakh-Syunik I.E..

1]Armenians/(Ararat Valley)- sample n110-37.3%-Herrara2012
2]Armenians general-sample n734-32.4%-Weale2001
3]Gilak+Lurs-samples n114-21%- Grugni 2012
4]North Ossetians n127-16.5%-Balanovsky 2011

Or combined Weale and Grugni, Balanovsky studies yield sample size of=n975-23.35%  selected pockets of I.E speaking regions. All potentially R-M269+L23+L150+ z2105+





Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 06, 2012, 01:33:13 PM
Hello all. My power was restored last night, so I haven't been able to reply sooner.

All close matches across haplogroups are mere coincidences.

We all have theories, but the credibility of those theories have a weight based on the quality and quantity of facts supporting the theory. A Phoenician R1b link fails many basic smoke tests.

1. The Phoenicians lived thousands of years after R1b was well established in Europe. The likelihood that the known Bell Beaker R1b1a2 samples from Germany were "Phoenicians" is almost zero.
2. The Phoenicians were a known Semitic speaking people to Indo-European speakers like the Romans, Celts and Greeks. Why associate R1b with a people who neither spoke IE nor originated from IE speaking areas (North Africa & the Middle East)?
I was especially concerned because my niece lives just off Raritan bay in Keyport and her baby was due!  They wouldn't evacuate but said they were going to the hospital 30 miles south to stay in a hotel just in case and the hospital is on the beach.  Baby Hays was born during the hurricane there on the 29th!

About the match outside the haplogroup, I understand but here is an interesting one in L2+:  JW8MV   Hanni   Bouzareah, Algiers, Algeria.  In the first 30 markers in FTDNA order I am 4/30 but with 67 markers compared I am 19/67.  Hanni sounds a lot like a Phoenician name to me.  Hanni being a warrior of Dado who was sister to Pumiyyathon a.k.a. Pygmalion.

Curtis Hays Pigman(Pigmon-Pygmon)


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Richard Rocca on November 06, 2012, 01:39:20 PM

I was especially concerned because my niece lives just off Raritan bay in Keyport and her baby was due!  They wouldn't evacuate but said they were going to the hospital 30 miles south to stay in a hotel just in case and the hospital is on the beach.  Baby Hays was born during the hurricane there on the 29th!


That's excellent news Curtis, congratulations.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Richard Rocca on November 06, 2012, 01:47:14 PM

About the match outside the haplogroup, I understand but here is an interesting one in L2+:  JW8MV   Hanni   Bouzareah, Algiers, Algeria.  In the first 30 markers in FTDNA order I am 4/30 but with 67 markers compared I am 19/67.  Hanni sounds a lot like a Phoenician name to me.  Hanni being a warrior of Dado who was sister to Pumiyyathon a.k.a. Pygmalion.

Curtis Hays Pigman(Pigmon-Pygmon)

Mr. Hanni told me that his grandfather was the result of a non-paternal event, so he has no idea where to trace his lineage to. His match to you is more important than the other way around.

As for Phoenician names, and as I've mentioned in the past - there is zero link between the surnames our ancestors invented 600 years ago or the names Phoenicians were using 2500 years ago as there was no continuity of surnames during that time span.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: A_Wode on November 06, 2012, 01:51:22 PM
Hello all. My power was restored last night, so I haven't been able to reply sooner.

All close matches across haplogroups are mere coincidences.

We all have theories, but the credibility of those theories have a weight based on the quality and quantity of facts supporting the theory. A Phoenician R1b link fails many basic smoke tests.

1. The Phoenicians lived thousands of years after R1b was well established in Europe. The likelihood that the known Bell Beaker R1b1a2 samples from Germany were "Phoenicians" is almost zero.
2. The Phoenicians were a known Semitic speaking people to Indo-European speakers like the Romans, Celts and Greeks. Why associate R1b with a people who neither spoke IE nor originated from IE speaking areas (North Africa & the Middle East)?

Certainly you cannot associate a haplogroup to a linguistic family but it's possible Phoenicians did have some R1b members seeing as they were a confederation of NW Levantine tribes who never have had a solid genetic identity. Of course, this would never imply any real close link to the people in Europe who had already settled X thousand years earlier.

I'm also interested in some of the references to early Levantine people from a historic and biblical perspective. Usually they are all referred to as Semites, but it seems there are at least 2 or more groups who were not able to communicate with one another. I sometimes wonder if R1b-V88 were part of that earlier group.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 06, 2012, 02:05:26 PM

About the match outside the haplogroup, I understand but here is an interesting one in L2+:  JW8MV   Hanni   Bouzareah, Algiers, Algeria.  In the first 30 markers in FTDNA order I am 4/30 but with 67 markers compared I am 19/67.  Hanni sounds a lot like a Phoenician name to me.  Hanni being a warrior of Dado who was sister to Pumiyyathon a.k.a. Pygmalion.

Curtis Hays Pigman(Pigmon-Pygmon)

Mr. Hanni told me that his grandfather was the result of a non-paternal event, so he has no idea where to trace his lineage to. His match to you is more important than the other way around.

As for Phoenician names, and as I've mentioned in the past - there is zero link between the surnames our ancestors invented 600 years ago or the names Phoenicians were using 2500 years ago as there was no continuity of surnames during that time span.
Thanks for the information on Mr. Hanni.  I did not know about the non paternal event.

You know however, I will still look for that link in the name continuity.  Who knows, one day we might find one.


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) on November 06, 2012, 02:11:52 PM
Hello all. My power was restored last night, so I haven't been able to reply sooner.

All close matches across haplogroups are mere coincidences.

We all have theories, but the credibility of those theories have a weight based on the quality and quantity of facts supporting the theory. A Phoenician R1b link fails many basic smoke tests.

1. The Phoenicians lived thousands of years after R1b was well established in Europe. The likelihood that the known Bell Beaker R1b1a2 samples from Germany were "Phoenicians" is almost zero.
2. The Phoenicians were a known Semitic speaking people to Indo-European speakers like the Romans, Celts and Greeks. Why associate R1b with a people who neither spoke IE nor originated from IE speaking areas (North Africa & the Middle East)?

Certainly you cannot associate a haplogroup to a linguistic family but it's possible Phoenicians did have some R1b members seeing as they were a confederation of NW Levantine tribes who never have had a solid genetic identity. Of course, this would never imply any real close link to the people in Europe who had already settled X thousand years earlier.

I'm also interested in some of the references to early Levantine people from a historic and biblical perspective. Usually they are all referred to as Semites, but it seems there are at least 2 or more groups who were not able to communicate with one another. I sometimes wonder if R1b-V88 were part of that earlier group.

What are the two groups if I may ask?


Title: Re: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
Post by: A_Wode on November 06, 2012, 05:24:17 PM
Hello all. My power was restored last night, so I haven't been able to reply sooner.

All close matches across haplogroups are mere coincidences.

We all have theories, but the credibility of those theories have a weight based on the quality and quantity of facts supporting the theory. A Phoenician R1b link fails many basic smoke tests.

1. The Phoenicians lived thousands of years after R1b was well established in Europe. The likelihood that the known Bell Beaker R1b1a2 samples from Germany were "Phoenicians" is almost zero.
2. The Phoenicians were a known Semitic speaking people to Indo-European speakers like the Romans, Celts and Greeks. Why associate R1b with a people who neither spoke IE nor originated from IE speaking areas (North Africa & the Middle East)?

Certainly you cannot associate a haplogroup to a linguistic family but it's possible Phoenicians did have some R1b members seeing as they were a confederation of NW Levantine tribes who never have had a solid genetic identity. Of course, this would never imply any real close link to the people in Europe who had already settled X thousand years earlier.

I'm also interested in some of the references to early Levantine people from a historic and biblical perspective. Usually they are all referred to as Semites, but it seems there are at least 2 or more groups who were not able to communicate with one another. I sometimes wonder if R1b-V88 were part of that earlier group.

What are the two groups if I may ask?

I'm certainly no expert on the topic, but I would suggest pre-Abrahamic cults and Abrahamic cults of the Near East for starters. There are likely many biblical contexts which should not be taken out of context, but not totally ignored either. There is usually a *grain* of truth to these, no matter how small.