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Title: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on October 16, 2012, 01:21:17 AM
There are currently 13 people who are P312**. Their surnames are:
Armstrong
McFarlane
Williams
Jenkins
Ellis
Ireland
Meek
Crosby
Hatton
Keyes
Reader
Hewitt
Fimbres

The first two may be of Kingdom of Rheged/Strathclyde Brythonic Celt stock, while
Williams & Jenkins are probably of Welsh Brythonic stock?
The Ellis member has a 17th C ancestor from N Wales. Crosby has Bristol (western England links in the early 18th C).
Ireland has ancestors from Lancashire in the early 18th C, while Meek is of Antrim stock.
Fimbres appears to be Spanish/French.
I appreciate that these may be split apart by further testing, but the common denominator for most of the above is that they are via the western side of these isles, so potentially Brythonic Celt stock.
Am I misguided in thinking there may be something in this?
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 16, 2012, 10:34:28 AM
Bob thanks for the kit numbers. I ran an Interclade age and each founders ages. Very close numbers and "Isles based?".

MJost


67(50)Markers   Sheet Mutation Rate: 0.11113
 STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY,YCAII,395S1 & 413

L21 ALL (111Markers using 67)  
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=1048

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR  SD
114.6  32.1  3,438.8  963.5  4,402.3  12.738  3.569


P312**   67 markers
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=9

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR  SD
113.5  32.0  3,404.5  958.7  4,363.2  12.611  3.551
      

TRUE MRCA  InterClade AB Founder      
Pooled SD Clades  A & B  Interclade

YrsPerGen*
30

GAB: P312* for L21 ALL (111Markers) & P312**

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  PooledVar  PooledSD

114.7  32.1  3,440.0  963.7  12.743  3.570


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on October 16, 2012, 10:48:06 AM
Thanks Mark,
Much appreciated. I'm solid on genealogical stuff, but an idiot on science-based work!
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 16, 2012, 11:09:50 AM
Thanks Mark,
Much appreciated. I'm a complete duffer at this level of analysis. Can you tell me if there is any link & at what approx timescale? I'm solid on genealogical stuff, but an idiot on science-based work!
Cheers,
Bob

L21 son didnt move far from P312** father?

In a Z253 post, this subclade didnt move far from L21 dad either.

Speculation only.

MJost


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on October 16, 2012, 12:34:01 PM
Fascinating, Mark.
Interesting to see the close timeframe.
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on October 16, 2012, 01:33:16 PM
If you use use Ancestry's Surname Census tool, or similar, it's noticeable that many of the names mentioned earlier have their heaviest presence in Wales, Lancashire, Cumberland, Cheshire & central southern Scotland.
Obviously the introduction of trains allowed people more mobility, but the 1840 Census may be a reasonable indicator of the folk listed's traditional homeland.
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Diana Sotela on October 16, 2012, 01:51:26 PM
I have  a question about your list.  Are you only counting from those who are from the isles and leaving out all the other Iberian P312+??

My father is Iberian and most of his matches are concentrated in N. Ireland and Wales.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on October 16, 2012, 02:26:13 PM
No Diana,
The list is just those who have tested & are P312**. There are only 13 who tested as far as we have & are still negative. I gather a 14th is being tested now, but is likely to join our group.
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Diana Sotela on October 16, 2012, 02:30:39 PM
What is P312** and tested how far?  You mean negative for everything below even DF27 and Z196 ?


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Diana Sotela on October 16, 2012, 02:36:18 PM
Ah never mind I see Reader on the list and I know who that is.  Still in P312+ limbo.  There has to be undiscovered SNP between that and the next catagory below.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on October 16, 2012, 03:00:00 PM
I notice that your relative (?) mentioned at the foot of your post is DF27+, Diana. The 13 listed are all DF27-.
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: brianlm on October 16, 2012, 04:23:59 PM
G'day Castlebob,
Do you have a kit number for the McFarlane in your list?
Many thanks,
Brian McFarlane


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on October 16, 2012, 05:39:55 PM
I've Private Messaged you, Brian. Hope it helps.
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: stoneman on October 22, 2012, 09:44:21 AM
If you want my opinion 6,800 would be a better TMRCA for P312. 10,000 for M269 after the Younger Dryas.


 
Bob thanks for the kit numbers. I ran an Interclade age and each founders ages. Very close numbers and "Isles based?".

MJost


67(50)Markers   Sheet Mutation Rate: 0.11113
 STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY,YCAII,395S1 & 413

L21 ALL (111Markers using 67)  
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=1048

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR  SD
114.6  32.1  3,438.8  963.5  4,402.3  12.738  3.569


P312**   67 markers
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=9

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR  SD
113.5  32.0  3,404.5  958.7  4,363.2  12.611  3.551
      

TRUE MRCA  InterClade AB Founder      
Pooled SD Clades  A & B  Interclade

YrsPerGen*
30

GAB: P312* for L21 ALL (111Markers) & P312**

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  PooledVar  PooledSD

114.7  32.1  3,440.0  963.7  12.743  3.570


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 22, 2012, 02:49:26 PM
If you want my opinion 6,800 would be a better TMRCA for P312. 10,000 for M269 after the Younger Dryas.


Counting SNPs? Again I dont think the proper usage study is in yet.

Even Anatole Klyosov has calculated

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-08/1345920485
 ">
 > ...... Since both P312 and U106 have an "age" of about 4200 years,
 > their common ancestor lived (4200+4200+1200)/2 = 4800 years ago.



My (Anatole Klyosov) comment:
 
"This is not that much different" is an understatement. They are the same,
since even with the 10% margin of error they are 4800+/-480 and 4500+/-450
ybp. In fact, even within 5% margin of error they are still the same:
4800+/-240 and 4500+/-225 ybp."


MJost


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: stoneman on October 22, 2012, 03:16:28 PM
Does the fact that he is Anatole Klyosov make his calculations correct? Do you expect me to believe that one man who lived 4800 ybp is the ancestor of 300,000,000 R1b males? Even at 10,000 ybp it is hard to believe it.There is one Italian poster on this forum who isnt R1b-L11 and his line has survived for thousands of years.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 22, 2012, 03:56:47 PM
Founders calculation with or without L21 added xPredicted.

U106 (67M)         N=1339  YBP= 3,222.9 +-932.8  (3 Sigma Confidence = +-608.6)
P312 xL21 (67M)   N=1671  YBP= 3,678.6 +-996.5  (3 Sigma Confidence = +-664.4)
Pooled SD Interclade to known MRCA  (Assumed to be L11)  YBP=  3,638.3  +- 991.1


Here I used xPredicted and I added back all of L21 into P312 List with 5,647 Hts.
 
P312 xL21 & L21 (67M)   N=4647  YBP= 3,684.2 +-997.3  (3 Sigma Confidence = +-399.3)
Pooled SD Interclade to known MRCA  (Assumed to be L11)  YBP=  3,681.3  +- 996.9

This last pairing has three off modals at 449, 456 & CDYa. And same median diff's on 449 and CDYa.

No real difference between P312 with or with L21.

MJost







Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 22, 2012, 04:57:38 PM
Does the fact that he is Anatole Klyosov make his calculations correct? Do you expect me to believe that one man who lived 4800 ybp is the ancestor of 300,000,000 R1b males? Even at 10,000 ybp it is hard to believe it.There is one Italian poster on this forum who isnt R1b-L11 and his line has survived for thousands of years.

I look at the fact that there was a very low growth rate (daughtering out/Bottlenecks) until there was a very sharp upswing starting around 1000BC. Why was it estimated that events in which a significant percentage of the world populations is killed or otherwise prevented from reproducing? It appears that population growth in larger numbers began to expand in the Late Stone Age.

Things are not linear as you think.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Population_curve.svg

MJost


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: razyn on October 22, 2012, 06:11:35 PM
Do you expect me to believe that one man who lived 4800 ybp is the ancestor of 300,000,000 R1b males?

That would seem to me a perfectly reasonable thing to believe.  It would require having an average of two surviving sons per generation (of 30 years) for 28 of the generations since 4800 ybp; and there have been about 160 such generations, so it's OK even if there were some famines, plagues, volcanoes, infertilities and so on.  And several other guys in Europe who were also fairly good breeders.

We are fortunate that most of the males living 4800 years ago weren't that successful.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 22, 2012, 07:54:15 PM
Do you expect me to believe that one man who lived 4800 ybp is the ancestor of 300,000,000 R1b males?
We are fortunate that most of the males living 4800 years ago weren't that successful.

...findings suggest that the Neolithic, or new Stone Age, period in Britain was much more violent than previously thought.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/060518-skulls.html

MJost


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 22, 2012, 08:10:59 PM
Interesting map of population from 1AD with a world population of 150Million people.  End of Part 9.

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/lmexer9.htm

MJost


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: seferhabahir on October 22, 2012, 08:38:20 PM
Interesting map of population from 1AD with a world population of 150Million people.  End of Part 9.

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/lmexer9.htm

MJost

Here is another type of map from Year 1, with this one estimating 231 million people.

http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=7

An 80 million person discrepancy is noteworthy. What's the more realistic number?


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: seferhabahir on October 22, 2012, 08:49:26 PM

An 80 million person discrepancy is noteworthy. What's the more realistic number?

U.S. census estimates somewhere between 170 and 400 million in Year 1. See below

http://www.census.gov/population/international/data/worldpop/table_history.php


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 22, 2012, 11:12:45 PM


Here is another type of map from Year 1, with this one estimating 231 million people.

http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=7

An 80 million person discrepancy is noteworthy. What's the more realistic number?

Thanks for sharing the strangest map I have ever seen. :)

Your correct in wondering the big swing in population estimates which seems that the same core of data isnt the same or atleast the way it is analyized.

Looking at the last chart shows several different studies but mostly in line with each other.  What I was interested in was the population of Europe, specifically Western Europe.  Here is one starting around 500 AD

Medieval Sourcebook:  Tables on Population in Medieval Europe

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.asp

What is interesting is Eastern Europe scant populations and also the Isles as compared to the Continental where Germany/Scandinavia fell flat when comparing to France.


MJost


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 22, 2012, 11:33:41 PM
Interesting map of population from 1AD with a world population of 150Million people.  End of Part 9.

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/lmexer9.htm

MJost

Looking at this map at around 1 AD sure seems to point to Coastal population initally.  This can not be far off in representation of L11 and its subclades?

Antiquity and Middle Ages
 
Main articles: Classical demography and Medieval demography
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

A dramatic population bottleneck is theorized for the period around 70,000 BC as a result of the Toba supervolcano eruption. From this time until the development of agriculture around the 11th millennium BC, it is estimated that the world population stabilized at about one million people, whose subsistence entailed hunting and foraging – a lifestyle that by its nature ensured a low population density. The total world population probably never exceeded 15 million inhabitants before the invention of agriculture.[20] By contrast, it is estimated that around 50–60 million people lived in the combined eastern and western Roman Empire in the 4th century AD.[21]

MJost


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: stoneman on October 23, 2012, 07:02:41 AM
You can believe what you want to. How many of your descendants  will be around in a  thousand years,none?


 ?
Do you expect me to believe that one man who lived 4800 ybp is the ancestor of 300,000,000 R1b males?

That would seem to me a perfectly reasonable thing to believe.  It would require having an average of two surviving sons per generation (of 30 years) for 28 of the generations since 4800 ybp; and there have been about 160 such generations, so it's OK even if there were some famines, plagues, volcanoes, infertilities and so on.  And several other guys in Europe who were also fairly good breeders.

We are fortunate that most of the males living 4800 years ago weren't that successful.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 23, 2012, 08:57:26 AM
In pre-history-late stone age, one thing must have been achieved, sustainable living, exemplified by small scale urban transition to rural eco-villages, seeks to create self-reliant communities based on principles of simple living, which maximize self-sufficiency particularly in food production. This appears to increase birth rate net of death rates increasing growth rates in the Isles.

Here is an interesting consideration and discussion of growth rates just for reference.

http://creation.com/where-are-all-the-people


MJost


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 24, 2012, 03:03:28 PM
You can believe what you want to. How many of your descendants  will be around in a  thousand years,none?

 ?
Do you expect me to believe that one man who lived 4800 ybp is the ancestor of 300,000,000 R1b males?

That would seem to me a perfectly reasonable thing to believe.  It would require having an average of two surviving sons per generation (of 30 years) for 28 of the generations since 4800 ybp; and there have been about 160 such generations, so it's OK even if there were some famines, plagues, volcanoes, infertilities and so on.  And several other guys in Europe who were also fairly good breeders.

We are fortunate that most of the males living 4800 years ago weren't that successful.

I don't think we can know the answer to your question, Stoneman. We just know that the vast, vast, vast super-majority of all paternal lineages around in ancient times have gone extinct.

I don't think that is so hard to believe. Look at breeds of animals that have gone extinct or are on the brink.

Even though paternal lineages go extinct, the general population keeps growing and someone's Y chromosome has to be passed down from the father to the sons.  Someone, albeit few, have left their Y chromosome legacy. Someone has to be "lucky" if you want to call it that.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 24, 2012, 04:00:54 PM
I would have thought in these days of small families (and the old days with lots of kids but very high mortality) that daughtering out would be incredibily common with that alone killing off a significant chunk of male lineages in every generation.  I would expect that its against the odds for a single male line to keep going more than a handful of generations due to that effect alone.  People have trouble getting their heads around this because every male whose line that has survived to this generation is a minor miracle of improbability.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: GoldenHind on December 08, 2012, 05:16:08 PM
I have said previously that I think it is unlikely that all those currently designated P312** are likely to be part of the same  unidentified subclade. The fact that most  known at present have ancestry from Britiain is quite likely merely a reflection of the enormous bias toward the British Isles amongst those testing. My suspicion is that are several P312 subclades yet to be discovered, and they probably will have very different histories and distributions.

I gather we now have a second continental P312**, this one with ancestry from Normandy. Rather than trying to connect him to the others previously identified, I suggest we just wait until we have further data before attempting to explain it.  


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on December 09, 2012, 08:43:40 AM
Thanks, Goldenhind.
I have a slightly different approach to research in that I feel it is sensible to look at possibilities & discuss them - however unlikely! As new evidence occurs, one can then change his/her opinion accordingly. As ever, I do appreciate that we're dealing with a timescale far greater than we'd like, but at least it's something.
As you say, we may well be getting data heavily Isles based, thus skewing results. I'm sure that's  the case. If we ever get to the stage where the French, Belgians, Danes etc show as much interest as Britain, Ireland & N America do, then we may get the chance to properly evaluate the results. At present we're reduced to playing the cards we're currently dealt.
On a personal note, I can make a very strong case for having Norman roots, but also for Brythonic links. The chap you mention with potential Norman roots is therefore of great interest to me.
I think debating potential tribal origins is fine, as long as one doesn't claim 100% proof . I think  we're all wise enough to know the pitfalls, & trust none of us are too precious about our claims. I have little preference/bias regarding my own origins, simply that I'd love to know what they are some time before I pop my clogs!
Bob
PS Over the years I've also looked at Breton, Flemish, Angle, Saxon & other options. So far, Anglo-Norman & Brythonic look the most likely.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: GoldenHind on December 09, 2012, 09:13:26 PM
Thanks, Goldenhind.
I have a slightly different approach to research in that I feel it is sensible to look at possibilities & discuss them - however unlikely! As new evidence occurs, one can then change his/her opinion accordingly. As ever, I do appreciate that we're dealing with a timescale far greater than we'd like, but at least it's something.
As you say, we may well be getting data heavily Isles based, thus skewing results. I'm sure that's  the case. If we ever get to the stage where the French, Belgians, Danes etc show as much interest as Britain, Ireland & N America do, then we may get the chance to properly evaluate the results. At present we're reduced to playing the cards we're currently dealt.
On a personal note, I can make a very strong case for having Norman roots, but also for Brythonic links. The chap you mention with potential Norman roots is therefore of great interest to me.
I think debating potential tribal origins is fine, as long as one doesn't claim 100% proof . I think  we're all wise enough to know the pitfalls, & trust none of us are too precious about our claims. I have little preference/bias regarding my own origins, simply that I'd love to know what they are some time before I pop my clogs!
Bob
PS Over the years I've also looked at Breton, Flemish, Angle, Saxon & other options. So far, Anglo-Norman & Brythonic look the most likely.

Firstly, let me point out that the newest P312** doesn't just have 'potential' Norman roots. He is a North American of French descent with a French surname whose ancestors came from Dieppe in Normandy. It's not like someone of British ancestry claiming distant Norman origins.

I don't really have a problem with speculation. It can be entertaining, especially in the absence of sufficient data. Nor would I be surprised if a large portion of the current P312** has Brythonic roots. But I think it's an error to assume they all share a common unknown subclade and origin. In my opinion it nearly certain that there is one or more SNPs between P312 and L238, and considering the Scandinavian distribution of L238, this hypotethical subclade is unlikely to have an origin in Britain. Of course there is no way of knowing whether any of the 17 P312** are members of this group, but I see no reason to ignore that possibilty. Testing for Z2245 and Z2247 may give us a better idea.

What I especially wanted to discourage is a repeat of the situation which developed when L21 was first discovered. The first positive results were all of British or Irish origin, and some immediately pronounced it a subclade which originated in the British Isles. When continental L21 began trickling in, some started looking for ways to explain them all in terms of migration from Britain and Ireland, and some of the explanations became very strained indeed.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on December 10, 2012, 03:22:43 AM
Good points, Goldenhind.
I mentioned 'potential' Norman roots as the Dieppe-linked chap may have earlier unknown ancestors from anywhere in France & beyond. (I gather his Dieppe links go back to the 17th C, not the 11th C?). Also, as you know, English & Welsh soldiers were sometimes  based in northern France during Medieval times, so we can imagine some of the results!
 L21 did provoke many arguments. As you suggest, too many read the early results as being conclusive proof  of a British Isles origin. That's partly why I've only suggested that there may be a Brythonic Celt link for those we're now discussing.
Unfortunately, the problem with forums is that someone might read  my recent  posts & see me currently flagging up potential Brythonic Celt roots, but don't realise  that I've discussed other potential origins in the past. Sadly, some on these forums are desperate to  belong to a particular tribe. That doesn't apply to me. All I seek is the truth.
To anyone who is interested in the northern English & southern Scottish counties I'd suggest looking closely at Lincolnshire as a potential entry point for Normans into those counties. It's incredible how many Normans & Flemings had connections there.
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on December 16, 2012, 12:32:28 AM
I'm currently awaiting Z2245 & Z2247 results, and am hoping others who are
R-P312** do the same - particularly the Dieppe-linked testee.
I've spent most of my life assuming my family were of Norman stock, but in recent years have tried to make a case for other roots. However, a recent breakthrough via 12th & 13th C records has reinforced the Norman theory.
It'll be interesting to see what Z2245 & Z2247 reveal.
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: GoldenHind on December 16, 2012, 06:14:54 PM
I'm currently awaiting Z2245 & Z2247 results, and am hoping others who are
R-P312** do the same - particularly the Dieppe-linked testee.
I've spent most of my life assuming my family were of Norman stock, but in recent years have tried to make a case for other roots. However, a recent breakthrough via 12th & 13th C records has reinforced the Norman theory.
It'll be interesting to see what Z2245 & Z2247 reveal.
Bob
Unfortunately there are only two orders at the moment for Z2245 and Z2247 by P312** individuals. Another is planning on ordering them next month, and as he is reasonably close to the L238 STR signature, I think he is the most likely to get a positive result. If anyone gets a positive result on either SNP, I think more orders will follow. If both are negative for both SNPs, it's not likely to encourage much interest, as that won't give us any better idea about the position of these new SNPs.
BTW, the vast majority of P312* (U152-, L21-) haven't tested for either DF27 or DF19. At the urging of the P312 project administrator, a number of them are now ordering DF27, and will follow with DF19 if they get negative results. Some of them will be negative for both, so the number of P312** could grow substantially in the next few months.
In any case, any hypothetical SNP between P312 and L238 could be very old, and unlikely to be Norman specific. I'm not even sure it will have the same close association with Scandinavia that L238 has. I do think it might very well be predominantly northern European. 


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on December 17, 2012, 05:53:57 AM
Thanks for the update, Goldenhind.
I appreciate the difficulties that the timescales involded produce, but there's always a chance that Z2245 & Z2247 might at least divide this group.
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: slimered on January 07, 2013, 04:07:41 PM
I am Edmund Fimbres living in California.  I have traced the family name to Juan de Fimbres a Flemish silk merchant living in Bilbao (Basque Country) Spain in 1650. Given that many from Flanders emigrated to Britain at about the same time, I did a name search of British sources and found that there were Fimbres living in Britain in the 18th, 19th and early 20th century. Most Fimbres today are in Northern Mexico and the southwest US but many claim a Basque heritage.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on January 08, 2013, 01:05:06 PM
That's interesting news. My interest is predominantly the Scottish Border counties, & I have found many Flemish links in the region. In the 12th C,  Roxburgh exported wool to Flanders. The Flemings were pivotal in that trade.

Flemings & Normans were encouraged to settle in Scotland by several Scottish kings.
 There were also numerous Flemish mercenaries allied to King William the Lion of Scotland  who invaded England  in  1173.

Many Flemings headed into Cumbria & Scotland following expulsion from England. Others joined David of Huntingdon when he headed north to claim the Scottish crown. The de Ghent/de Gant family were with David & adopted the Lindsay surname when surnames became required.  The family were often Lord Chamberlains of Scotland. There is strong evidence to suggest that Robert de Brus was from Flanders, prior to the Cotentin in Normandy. His family in Yorkshire carried the rampant lion popular in Flanders.

Many of the castles of Scotland were built by Flemings, supposedly. I believe far more clans in Scotland have Flemish blood than is commonly believed. Unfortunately Victorian researchers labelled them as Norman!

Cheers,

Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: GoldenHind on January 28, 2013, 09:43:29 PM

FTDNA has just released the results of 25 tests for DF27 by people who were formerly P312* (ie U152- L21-). There is a special offer by the P312 project at the moment for members who are P312* for a complimentary DF19 test for those who test DF27-.  All but two of the 25 were DF27+.
One of the two DF27-, with ancestry to northern Germany in the 13th century, is now pending the test for DF19.
The other had already tested DF19, so now joins the ranks of those who are P312**. He is a Russian with ancestry in Russia back to the 15th century.
Perhaps he is a descendant of a Welsh crusader who took a wrong turn at Constantinople?


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: OConnor on February 06, 2013, 09:55:04 AM
if there is P312* in Scandinavia, could he possibly be a remnant of the Vikings in Russia?

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac14


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: SEJJ on February 06, 2013, 01:43:12 PM
if there is P312* in Scandinavia, could he possibly be a remnant of the Vikings in Russia?

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac14


Hmm.

Surely a fairly big chunk of R1b in Scandinavia should be P312? Like Denmark for instance, 45% R1b, about 20% R1b-U106, maybe U152, L21 combined is another 1-5% - That's like 20% unaccounted for, except by P312?


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: GoldenHind on February 08, 2013, 08:09:11 PM
There is P312* (XU152,L21) in Scandinavia, though the data from the Old Norway Project suggests it is strongest in Norway, then Sweden and less common in Denmark. Viking settlers in Russia came primarily from Sweden.

However we have no idea how it is broken down beyond that. Certainly some of it is 238, but some portion is likely to be DF27. How much if any is what is currently classified as P312** is unknown.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: samIsaack on February 09, 2013, 07:27:54 AM
They have already confirmed that some of the R1b in these regions is DF27, more specifically SRY2627. There was also around the same ammount of unconfirmed P312 left over after taking SRY2627 into account. I'm sure a portion of that left-over chunk contains L165 as well.

Sweden seemed to have the highest numbers for these DF27 people. Next I believe was Norway and lastly Denmark.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: chris1 on February 09, 2013, 07:49:09 AM
Anyone know how far away we are from seeing accurate DF27 percentages for the whole of Europe?


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Webb on February 09, 2013, 10:30:00 AM
Anyone know how far away we are from seeing accurate DF27 percentages for the whole of Europe?

Way, way, way far away.  Ftdna hasn't even added it to their tree yet as well as the north/south cluster or DF19.  It is odd how many people joined the P312 group and have not tested for anything since.  Even with the group offering to pay for the DF19 test if your DF27 test comes back negative.  Not many people biting.  You would think by now ftdna would update their tree, particularly since they offer these tests under the advanced option. 


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: slimered on April 28, 2013, 03:26:39 AM
My 67 marker is -2 from the other "Fimbres" tested P312** so I'm assuming I'm P312 also. I'm doing the Geno 2.0 now to confirm. From my research so far I have determined that the Fimbres name which no longer exists in Europe comes down from a Flemish {'Flemenco") silk merchant, Juan de Fimbres, in Bilboa (Basque country) Spain circa 1650.  The first Fimbres' in Mexico considered their heritage Basque. They settled in Sonora Mexico, Arizona and Calfornia.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on April 28, 2013, 04:37:55 AM
That's interesting, Slimered. I have found a number of  R-P312** testees who may have Flemish links, including myself.  One of the R-P312** testees had an ancestor in Hatfield, Yorkshire in the 1600s. I have traced a family who lived in Cumbria, who might well be linked to my ancestors, who were in  Reedness, near Hull, Yorkshire. Reedness to Hatfield is a little over 10 miles.
I'm not claiming that the Hatfield testee  & my family are linked closely in genealogical terms, but I do believe we may well both have origins in Flanders. Flemings dominated the Holderness area close to where Reedness is located. I have also spent hundreds of hours researching Medieval docs & found Flemings in abundance in places that interest me.
Another R-P312** testee has the surname Jenkins. Initially, that appeared to indicate Brythonic Celt to me, yet I found that the 'kin' ending was introduced to Wales by Flemings. I think most of the Jenkins' folk will be of Celtic stock. I think their name was initially 'Siencyn' and that their 'cyn' ending got dropped in preference for the 'kin' version. ('Friskin the Fleming' appears in many Scottish records - a fine example of the use of the 'kin'  ending. Erskine is another example). Another testee had links to Nottinghamshire. The lace industry in that county had Flemish connections.
Finally, my surname also appeared in Berwick, which exported wool to Bruges, plus they were also Merchant Staplers of my name further south in the Notts & Lincs area. The wool trade was dominated by Flemings in Medieval times..
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 28, 2013, 02:01:47 PM
My 67 marker is -2 from the other "Fimbres" tested P312** so I'm assuming I'm P312 also. I'm doing the Geno 2.0 now to confirm. From my research so far I have determined that the Fimbres name which no longer exists in Europe comes down from a Flemmish {'Flemenco") silk merchant, Juan de Fimbres, in Bilboa (Basque country) Spain circa 1650.  The first Fimbres' in Mexico considered their heritage Basque. They settled in Sonora Mexico, Arizona and Calfornia.

I'm afraid that Geno 2.0 is unlikely to be of any assistance. There are other P312** individuals who have ordered it, and their results didn't show anything below P310 (P312 for some reason isn't included in the SNPs tested by Geno 2). You could get lucky, but I suggest you sit tight for a while. There are other developments in progress which should identify some further SNPs below P312 within a month or two.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: GoldenHind on April 28, 2013, 03:47:32 PM
That's interesting, Slimered. I have found a number of  R-P312** testees who may have Flemish links, including myself.  One of the R-P312** testees had an ancestor in Hatfield, Yorkshire in the 1600s. I have traced a family who lived in Cumbria, who might well be linked to my ancestors, who were in  Reedness, near Hull, Yorkshire. Reedness to Hatfield is a little over 10 miles.
I'm not claiming that the Hatfield testee  & my family are linked closely in genealogical terms, but I do believe we may well both have origins in Flanders. Flemings dominated the Holderness area close to where Reedness is located. I have also spent hundreds of hours researching Medieval docs & found Flemings in abundance in places that interest me.
Another R-P312** testee has the surname Jenkins. Initially, that appeared to indicate Brythonic Celt to me, yet I found that the 'kin' ending was introduced to Wales by Flemings. I think most of the Jenkins' folk will be of Celtic stock. I think their name was initially 'Siencyn' and that their 'cyn' ending got dropped in preference for the 'kin' version. ('Friskin the Fleming' appears in many Scottish records - a fine example of the use of the 'kin'  ending. Erskine is another example). Another testee had links to Nottinghamshire. The lace industry in that county had Flemish connections.
Finally, my surname also appeared in Berwick, which exported wool to Bruges, plus they were also Merchant Staplers of my name further south in the Notts & Lincs area. The wool trade was dominated by Flemings in Medieval times..
Cheers,
Bob

I have been looking at those currently on the P312** list (now at 35), and by comparing off modals (a la Nordtvedt) and GDs within the group, have found what I believe to be at least two likely clusters.

The ones you mention from Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire rather surprisingly have their closest match not with any of the other British, but rather with the one from Russia. The three share a number of comparatively scare off modals. This one is still a little fuzzy around the edges, and I am unsure how many of the others might fall into it as well. However I am quite confident about those three.

Jenkins however is part of a different and very distinct cluster with a number of other Welsh surnames, as well as some from England. I have found nine different off modals commonly occuring in this group, but common to all of them is a very distinctive DYS392=14.

I have reported more completely on this on another forum, and unfortunately I am pressed for time at the moment and cannot go into it any further at this point. There certainly may be some P312** with a connection with Flanders, but I am quite certain it doesn't extend to the entire group.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Webb on April 28, 2013, 04:12:12 PM
That's interesting, Slimered. I have found a number of  R-P312** testees who may have Flemish links, including myself.  One of the R-P312** testees had an ancestor in Hatfield, Yorkshire in the 1600s. I have traced a family who lived in Cumbria, who might well be linked to my ancestors, who were in  Reedness, near Hull, Yorkshire. Reedness to Hatfield is a little over 10 miles.
I'm not claiming that the Hatfield testee  & my family are linked closely in genealogical terms, but I do believe we may well both have origins in Flanders. Flemings dominated the Holderness area close to where Reedness is located. I have also spent hundreds of hours researching Medieval docs & found Flemings in abundance in places that interest me.
Another R-P312** testee has the surname Jenkins. Initially, that appeared to indicate Brythonic Celt to me, yet I found that the 'kin' ending was introduced to Wales by Flemings. I think most of the Jenkins' folk will be of Celtic stock. I think their name was initially 'Siencyn' and that their 'cyn' ending got dropped in preference for the 'kin' version. ('Friskin the Fleming' appears in many Scottish records - a fine example of the use of the 'kin'  ending. Erskine is another example). Another testee had links to Nottinghamshire. The lace industry in that county had Flemish connections.
Finally, my surname also appeared in Berwick, which exported wool to Bruges, plus they were also Merchant Staplers of my name further south in the Notts & Lincs area. The wool trade was dominated by Flemings in Medieval times..
Cheers,
Bob

I have been looking at those currently on the P312** list (now at 35), and by comparing off modals (a la Nordtvedt) and GDs within the group, have found what I believe to be at least two likely clusters.

The ones you mention from Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire rather surprisingly have their closest match not with any of the other British, but rather with the one from Russia. The three share a number of comparatively scare off modals. This one is still a little fuzzy around the edges, and I am unsure how many of the others might fall into it as well. However I am quite confident about those three.

Jenkins however is part of a different and very distinct cluster with a number of other Welsh surnames, as well as some from England. I have found nine different off modals commonly occuring in this group, but common to all of them is a very distinctive DYS392=14.

I have reported more completely on this on another forum, and unfortunately I am pressed for time at the moment and cannot go into it any further at this point. There certainly may be some P312** with a connection with Flanders, but I am quite certain it doesn't extend to the entire group.

I just posted about something similiar in another thread.  My 37 marker step 1 through 3 all have the last name wilder and I match the step 1's and 2's at 67 markers as well.  However my 37 marker step 4's all have the surname Vanderhoof.  Since I do not match this group at 67, I sort of ignored them, until one of them tested positive for Z220.  They are Dutch.  According to FTDNA's tip sheet the probability of a common ancestor is at 28 generations with above 95% certainty.  So the two lines split around 1300 or so.  That could change with further testing.  It could be an isolated migration.  However around 1300 king Edward granted a large group of Flemish weavers land in England, settling some in Wales, some in Bristol, and some in Manchester.  Also william the conqueror's son was half Flemish and there was a large component of Flemish who came with him to England.  If Z220 is common as Far East as Denmark then it is quite possible that it was/is common all along the Atlantic and North Sea coast as well as various othe P312 groups.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: samIsaack on April 28, 2013, 04:35:19 PM
"Jenkins however is part of a different and very distinct cluster with a number of other Welsh surnames, as well as some from England. I have found nine different off modals commonly occuring in this group, but common to all of them is a very distinctive DYS392=14."

Well now that is interesting. I've only seen a handful of families that have that distinct marker outside of R-M222, which is modal to that group. My Isaac family is one of those families, with roots to Devonshire. Another factor, almost every person I've seen with 14 repeats at 392 have either been L21 or DF27 of some sort.


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: Castlebob on April 29, 2013, 01:54:29 AM
One of the 35 (?) R-P312** testees had links to Bristol, so could have been Brythonic or Flemish (or other!). Another had Antrim links, so potentially one of many Flemings who went to Ulster via the Borders, or via the weaving trade etc.
I did find some records in Devon which, ironically, connected a family there with Cumbria. From memory, the Devon family inherited land in the far north west.
At present I'm not necessarily looking for genealogical links between the R-P312** group, although any would be of great interest, but wondering how many of this group originally  inhabited Flanders. I've found many (Flemings?)  living cheek-by-jowel in Yorkshire, then drifting together  into Northumberland, then on into Cumbria & Rox/Dumf. The same families seem to move together & marry amongst their own. The Flemish law of nobilitas?
Of the families I'm researching, the Scottish branches tended to settle north of the Border during the time following William the Lion's ill-fated 1173 invasion of England.
I've seen records showing some of these Norman & Flemish folk then gaining land in Cumbria & settling back in England. Some of these names are recorded by historians as Norman, yet research shows that many were, in fact, Flemish in origin.
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: P312** List - Brythonic?
Post by: A.D. on May 05, 2013, 09:42:12 PM
I think most of the Walkers , Falkers and variations I know in the 6 counties claim Flemish weaver ancestry via NE England (rightly or wrongly) so it must be a common assumtion.