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Title: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 19, 2012, 04:54:56 PM
I am reproducing this here as it is extremely important and has not received a single response on Rootsweb. Clearly VV should post here where the R1b topics never sleep...

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-09/1347884417 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-09/1347884417)

===================================

From: Vincent Vizachero <vincent@vizachero.com>
Subject: [DNA] Subclades of R-L23
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:20:17 -0400

Last Spring Vince and Greg identified two new SNPs of potential interest to men in haplogroup R-L23: Z2103 and Z2105.

As a result of testing our project participants, we can see that Z2103 and Z2105 are so far phylogentically equivalent and that R-Z2105 is a brother clade to R-L51.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new

Moreover, so far everyone who is known to be L23+ and L51- who tested Z2105 was found to be derived (positive) for it. That is, for the moment it appears that there will be no more R-L23*.

Furthermore, FTDNA has got its primers for L277 working so that we can confirm that both L277 and L584 are subclades of R-Z2105.

And finally, the results for Z2105 have given us additional data which suggest that L150 is not phylogenetically reliable or useful.

R-L23 participants who want complete knowledge of their haplogroup should test both L51 and Z2105. Kits that turn out to be Z2105+ should consider ordering L277 and L584.

However, both L277 and L584 have varying frequencies according to geography. For example, few men with British Isles ancestry are turning up positive for either SNP whereas many (in some cases most) men with SW Asian (or Jewish) ancestry are turning up positive. Negative results may still prove to be useful data, nonetheless.

Vince

===================================

If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 19, 2012, 05:06:34 PM
If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.

I agree it is important, but we just have to see the results. It could be not much more than moving the "bulge" in the snake over a bit, but if there is a good division or two created it makes things like interclade calculations possible plus the tracking true L23* folks.  Hopefully, this is in Geno 2.0.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Jean M on September 19, 2012, 06:21:26 PM
Thank you Richard. I had missed the post on Rootsweb.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 20, 2012, 12:00:17 AM
   
Nothing new. These questions have been discussed here in their all implications:


About Z2103/Z2105 and L150, L584, L277 etc.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 20, 2012, 04:38:42 AM
I have just ordered Z2105 for me. I expect to be positive, but we'll see. As I have said in the other thread, beeing the Eastern R-L23* mostly L277+ and L584+, then Z2105+, I think that Z2105- will be found in Italy or in Europe.

As you can see, "Adam" R-L23* was very far from the European subclades:

32700 Adam (wife: Eve). 4000 to 3070 Grdn Eden, Israel R1b1a2a
12 23 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-14-15-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 17 8 11 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 33 15 9 17 13 26 26 19 12 10 12 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 11 12 23 14 10 10 19 15 19 13 24 17 12 16 24 12 24 18 10 14 19 9 12 11

H1614 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firenze, Italy) R1b1a2a1
12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 32 15 9 16 11 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 14 10   9 20 15 19 14 23 18 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 11 11

Antonio del Badia is of course my ancestor of the 15th century.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 20, 2012, 07:55:27 AM
I have just ordered Z2105 for me...

Excellent. I added a new group in the Italy project.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: acekon on September 20, 2012, 02:28:58 PM
Dodecad K7b has already shown higher frequencies of SW Asian component "Southern" in Yemeni Jews 67% and British_D 11.9% compared to Balochi 8.5% and Polish 6.8% for example. It will be interesting to see if there is a pattern, North,South,East ,West L277+ and L584+ versus L277- and L584-


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 27, 2012, 01:22:46 AM
FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 27, 2012, 07:46:57 AM
FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


So what do these numbers mean? For Z2105, FTDNA has tested 19 and 16 have been derived.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 27, 2012, 07:56:28 AM
FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


So what do these numbers mean? For Z2105, FTDNA has tested 19 and 16 have been derived.
My results will be ready on 11 December 2012. But where are the three ancestral documented? And where do they come from?


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 27, 2012, 08:07:03 AM
FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


So what do these numbers mean? For Z2105, FTDNA has tested 19 and 16 have been derived.
My results will be ready on 11 December 2012. But where are the three ancestral documented? And where do they come from?

I see, 483 is a batch number. Here are two of the three negatives:

Yakov (Volovansky) c.1780
Dov Ber Fabrikant b.c. 1810 Vetka, Belarus

Both are in the Jewish R1b project. I couldn't find the third in any of the projects I looked at.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 27, 2012, 08:12:11 AM
Whether these are two of them, they are false Z2105-, because they aren’t R-L23+ but R-M269*.
They are above all Jews, the most tested. Remember what Yair Davidyi wrote!



2146 Yakov (Volovansky) c.1780 R1b1a2 R-M269 L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, L584-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, Z2105-

226720 Dov Ber Fabrikant b.c. 1810 Vetka, Belarus R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L277-, Z2105-


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 27, 2012, 08:29:39 AM
Whether these are two of them, they are false Z2105-, because they aren’t R-L23+ but R-M269*.
They are above all Jews, the most tested. Remember what Yair Davidyi wrote!



2146 Yakov (Volovansky) c.1780 R1b1a2 R-M269 L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, L584-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, Z2105-

226720 Dov Ber Fabrikant b.c. 1810 Vetka, Belarus R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L277-, Z2105-


Ok, I see what you mean by Yakov, but why do you think Fabrikant is L23- ? He hasn't been tested for it, probably because he got an L150+ result first which you know now looks unstable.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 27, 2012, 09:17:36 AM
Ok, I see what you mean by Yakov, but why do you think Fabrikant is L23- ? He hasn't been tested for it, probably because he got an L150+ result first which you know now looks unstable.
I have spoken about this in another thread with VV: Fabrikant belongs to the Jewish R-M269*, which is an unique line which descends from an unique person recently introgressed in the Jewish pool. No doubt about this, and also VV hadn't.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 10, 2012, 04:46:18 PM
I am reproducing this here as it is extremely important and has not received a single response on Rootsweb. Clearly VV should post here where the R1b topics never sleep...

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-09/1347884417 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-09/1347884417)

===================================

From: Vincent Vizachero <vincent@vizachero.com>
Subject: [DNA] Subclades of R-L23
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:20:17 -0400

Last Spring Vince and Greg identified two new SNPs of potential interest to men in haplogroup R-L23: Z2103 and Z2105.

As a result of testing our project participants, we can see that Z2103 and Z2105 are so far phylogentically equivalent and that R-Z2105 is a brother clade to R-L51.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new

Moreover, so far everyone who is known to be L23+ and L51- who tested Z2105 was found to be derived (positive) for it. That is, for the moment it appears that there will be no more R-L23*.

Furthermore, FTDNA has got its primers for L277 working so that we can confirm that both L277 and L584 are subclades of R-Z2105.

And finally, the results for Z2105 have given us additional data which suggest that L150 is not phylogenetically reliable or useful.  ..............

Vince

===================================

If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.

I'm trying to draw a chart of the higher (earlier) levels of branching within R1b. It is not meant to include every SNP, just provide an overview.

Does this look accurate?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

I have additional comment on the last statement that I emboldened. If Z2105 ends up entailing all of or almost all of L23xL51, then Z2105's variance on the eastern side of R1b-L23's range will be clearly higher because it would be the same calculation as what L23*'s now is.  Operating against long haplotypes, L23*'s (and therefore possibly Z2105's) STR diversity among people from Anatolia and the Near East would be high. This might be mostly related to Armenians as that is the bias in our eastern R1b-L23 data.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: alan trowel hands. on October 10, 2012, 05:28:29 PM
I am reproducing this here as it is extremely important and has not received a single response on Rootsweb. Clearly VV should post here where the R1b topics never sleep...

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-09/1347884417 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-09/1347884417)

===================================

From: Vincent Vizachero <vincent@vizachero.com>
Subject: [DNA] Subclades of R-L23
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:20:17 -0400

Last Spring Vince and Greg identified two new SNPs of potential interest to men in haplogroup R-L23: Z2103 and Z2105.

As a result of testing our project participants, we can see that Z2103 and Z2105 are so far phylogentically equivalent and that R-Z2105 is a brother clade to R-L51.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new

Moreover, so far everyone who is known to be L23+ and L51- who tested Z2105 was found to be derived (positive) for it. That is, for the moment it appears that there will be no more R-L23*.

Furthermore, FTDNA has got its primers for L277 working so that we can confirm that both L277 and L584 are subclades of R-Z2105.

And finally, the results for Z2105 have given us additional data which suggest that L150 is not phylogenetically reliable or useful.  ..............

Vince

===================================

If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.

I'm trying to draw a chart of the higher (earlier) levels of branching within R1b. It is not meant to include every SNP, just provide an overview.

Does this look accurate?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-Descendancy_Tree.jpg

I have additional comment on the last statement that I emboldened. If Z2105 ends up entailing all of or almost all of L23xL51, then Z2105's variance on the eastern side of R1b-L23's range will be clearly higher because it would be the same calculation as what L23*'s now is.  Operating against long haplotypes, L23*'s (and therefore possibly Z2105's) STR diversity among people from Anatolia and the Near East would be high. This might be mostly related to Armenians as that is the bias in our eastern R1b-L23 data.

Which makes it all the more interesting that the majority of scholars see Armenians as coming from somewhere like the Balkans and closest tto Greek.  The fact that high diversity is associated with the Armenians, L23 and an IE language it makes it tempting to think if we could locate the pre-Armenia location of Armenia then we would be a step closer to understanding the whole R1b European story.  The other location not associated with Armenian where it has been calculated that L23xL51 has high diversity is Romania.  Perhaps our eye is being to drawn towards Anatolia and the Caucuses due to an intrusive group like the Armenians and we should be looking more northwards.   


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 10, 2012, 05:45:59 PM
....
If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.

... I have additional comment on the last statement that I emboldened. If Z2105 ends up entailing all of or almost all of L23xL51, then Z2105's variance on the eastern side of R1b-L23's range will be clearly higher because it would be the same calculation as what L23*'s now is.  Operating against long haplotypes, L23*'s (and therefore possibly Z2105's) STR diversity among people from Anatolia and the Near East would be high. This might be mostly related to Armenians as that is the bias in our eastern R1b-L23 data.

Which makes it all the more interesting that the majority of scholars see Armenians as coming from somewhere like the Balkans and closest tto Greek.  The fact that high diversity is associated with the Armenians, L23 and an IE language it makes it tempting to think if we could locate the pre-Armenia location of Armenia then we would be a step closer to understanding the whole R1b European story.  The other location not associated with Armenian where it has been calculated that L23xL51 has high diversity is Romania.  Perhaps our eye is being to drawn towards Anatolia and the Caucuses due to an intrusive group like the Armenians and we should be looking more northwards.    

I don't know. My biggest complaint about gaps in DNA testing is SE Europe, the Caucasus and Anatolia. I wish one or two of these studies would seriously check these regions out.  

What if they found some several different forms of L51* in one of those place or who knows what?


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: razyn on October 10, 2012, 05:47:12 PM
Perhaps our eye is being to drawn towards Anatolia and the Caucuses [Caucasus] due to an intrusive group like the Armenians and we should be looking more northwards.    

I've wondered if our eyes are drawn to Armenia because there are a lot of people of Armenian descent in the USA, and that's whose test results are most visible in FTDNA projects.

I've also wondered if anybody has tried talking up this sort of testing in many other US ethnic communities -- especially since they tend to organize around churches (or whatever other way they worship).  The Romanian Orthodox church for the greater Washington DC area is on a route I drive several times a month... just as one example among many.  It's possible in a metropolitan area to test YDNA from known villages, etc. almost anywhere on the globe, if one just sets one's mind to the task.  That's really much easier than trying to deduce (by testing YDNA) the location in the British Isles from which some ancestor arrived in VA in 1623 or so.  It might also be more important.  But AFAIK there's no big money behind any such effort.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 10, 2012, 06:24:09 PM
Perhaps our eye is being to drawn towards Anatolia and the Caucuses [Caucasus] due to an intrusive group like the Armenians and we should be looking more northwards.    

I've wondered if our eyes are drawn to Armenia because there are a lot of people of Armenian descent in the USA, and that's whose test results are most visible in FTDNA projects....

I wouldn't necessarily say are eyes our drawn to them, but just that many did immigrate to America and therefore became more likely consumer DNA testers. I grew up with friends that were Armenian and others that were Lebanese. At the time I thought it was weird that their families moved here but now that I know the history....   it's like the same story over and over again.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 10, 2012, 06:31:37 PM
Does this look accurate?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

Here is another overview chart just a step or two back on the tree for Hg R.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R_Descendancy_Tree.jpg


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Heber on October 10, 2012, 07:30:50 PM
....
If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.

... I have additional comment on the last statement that I emboldened. If Z2105 ends up entailing all of or almost all of L23xL51, then Z2105's variance on the eastern side of R1b-L23's range will be clearly higher because it would be the same calculation as what L23*'s now is.  Operating against long haplotypes, L23*'s (and therefore possibly Z2105's) STR diversity among people from Anatolia and the Near East would be high. This might be mostly related to Armenians as that is the bias in our eastern R1b-L23 data.

Which makes it all the more interesting that the majority of scholars see Armenians as coming from somewhere like the Balkans and closest tto Greek.  The fact that high diversity is associated with the Armenians, L23 and an IE language it makes it tempting to think if we could locate the pre-Armenia location of Armenia then we would be a step closer to understanding the whole R1b European story.  The other location not associated with Armenian where it has been calculated that L23xL51 has high diversity is Romania.  Perhaps our eye is being to drawn towards Anatolia and the Caucuses due to an intrusive group like the Armenians and we should be looking more northwards.    

I don't know. My biggest complaint about gaps in DNA testing is SE Europe, the Caucasus and Anatolia. I wish one or two of these studies would seriously check these regions out.  

What if they found some several different forms of L51* in one of those place or who knows what?

This is the objective of the BEAN Bridging the European and Anatolian Neolithic project. As they are using NGS and aDNA we should get the best data to date from the region.

"The common focus of the project partners centers around questions associated with the origin of first farmer settlements, which were established some 8,000 years ago in West Anatolia and the Balkans. Where did they come from? Were they migrants from the Middle East? Are they our ancestors? "

"She will analyze DNA from the bones of the last hunter-gatherers and the first settled farmers in the region between West Anatolia and the Balkans using the new cutting-edge technology of Next Generation Sequencing (NGS). "

https://sites.google.com/site/beanresearchnetwork/



Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Richard Rocca on October 10, 2012, 09:51:42 PM

I've wondered if our eyes are drawn to Armenia because there are a lot of people of Armenian descent in the USA, and that's whose test results are most visible in FTDNA projects.


Not necessarily. Armenia is interesting because Myres found the Caucasus to have the highest L23* variance.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: acekon on October 11, 2012, 01:05:06 AM
There are going to be more  branches besides z2105+ L584 /L277.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 11, 2012, 10:56:35 AM
There are going to be more  branches besides z2105+ L584 /L277.

Do we know of any that are ready to put on the ISOGG tree.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Wayne Kauffman on October 11, 2012, 07:09:11 PM
Do we have a listing anywhere with the number of individuals between L23 and L51 who have Geno 2.0 kits ordered? 


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Richard Rocca on October 12, 2012, 02:05:27 PM
FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


So what do these numbers mean? For Z2105, FTDNA has tested 19 and 16 have been derived.
My results will be ready on 11 December 2012. But where are the three ancestral documented? And where do they come from?

Gioiello, congratulations on your Z2105+ results! It will be interesting to see where the line of demarcation is for L51 and Z2105 lineages. Do you have any close matches with the other Z2105+ kits?


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Diana on October 13, 2012, 04:02:21 PM
Yes, congrats Gioiello!


FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


So what do these numbers mean? For Z2105, FTDNA has tested 19 and 16 have been derived.
My results will be ready on 11 December 2012. But where are the three ancestral documented? And where do they come from?

Gioiello, congratulations on your Z2105+ results! It will be interesting to see where the line of demarcation is for L51 and Z2105 lineages. Do you have any close matches with the other Z2105+ kits?


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: acekon on October 13, 2012, 05:14:54 PM
I have just ordered Z2105 for me. I expect to be positive, but we'll see. As I have said in the other thread, beeing the Eastern R-L23* mostly L277+ and L584+, then Z2105+, I think that Z2105- will be found in Italy or in Europe.

Eastern R-L23*_South West Asia is divided between Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European languages. Those who believe R-Z2105- is derived from Afro-Asiatic language region  should look accordingly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Afroasiatic-en.svg&page=1



Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Geni on October 13, 2012, 06:21:45 PM
I have just ordered Z2105+Z2103+dys 461.I am  albanian..... Fega  FTDNA


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: acekon on October 13, 2012, 08:11:51 PM
I have just ordered Z2105+Z2103+dys 461.I am  albanian..... Fega  FTDNA

That is great, Geni! Any idea on the date of expected results? I hope Maliclavelli comes back and shares his results and what he thinks.
I was L584- so I only had to order L277 and Z2105, FTDNA was relatively quick. Ordered Sept 7 batched Sept 12 and completed Oct 3; not bad.
Just a coincidence but my#4 result on: Gedmatch

Mixed Mode Population Sharing  MDLP-22
4)55.2%   North-East-European (ancestral)+44.8%Kosovar (derived) @2.25


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: geni on October 25, 2012, 12:47:58 PM
I have just ordered Z2105+Z2103+dys 461.I am  albanian..... Fega  FTDNA
Dys 461= 11


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 25, 2012, 03:00:12 PM
I have just ordered Z2105+Z2103+dys 461.I am  albanian..... Fega  FTDNA
Dys 461= 11


Geni, unfortunately when you ordered your tests I wasn’t able to write to you, because your tests are probably useless. Belonging you to the “Albanian cluster” (or the “Balkan cluster “as I called it: in fact were Argiedude and me to discover it), you are very likely not only DYS461=11 but also Z2103 and Z2105+.
Certainly would be more useful to find that Risso from Liguria I extracted from SMGF and put on ySearch and I supposed the Italian ancestor of the “Balkan cluster” and to test him.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Richard Rocca on October 25, 2012, 03:14:41 PM
I will be sending out an email to the following FTDNA Italy Project group asking that they test for Z2105:

R1b1a2 (L23+, Z2105 Not Tested)

Kit no. N37658, surname Romitti, from Lombardia has already ordered.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: geni on October 25, 2012, 03:42:12 PM
I have just ordered Z2105+Z2103+dys 461.I am  albanian..... Fega  FTDNA
Dys 461= 11


Geni, unfortunately when you ordered your tests I wasn’t able to write to you, because your tests are probably useless. Belonging you to the “Albanian cluster” (or the “Balkan cluster “as I called it: in fact were Argiedude and me to discover it), you are very likely not only DYS461=11 but also Z2103 and Z2105+.
Certainly would be more useful to find that Risso from Liguria I extracted from SMGF and put on ySearch and I supposed the Italian ancestor of the “Balkan cluster” and to test him.

Posso sapere qualcosa in  piu  del  Z2103+Z2105 ?


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 26, 2012, 04:14:29 AM
Posso sapere qualcosa in  piu  del  Z2103+Z2105 ?

Caro Fega, ti scrivo in Italiano visto che me lo hai chiesto in Italiano. So che stai in Francia e, conoscendo il Francese, capisci meglio l’Italiano dell’Inglese. Z2103 e Z2105 sono stati trovati nel Progetto Mille Genomi. Sembra che essi siano equivalenti, visto che nessuno è stato trovato disgiunto per questi due SNPs. Essi si collocano sotto L23, e sembra che L150 non sia affidabile. Sotto L23* (non ancora trovato, visto che dovremmo trovare un L23+/L51-/Z2103 e Z2105-) ci sono appunto L51 e Z2103/Z2105. Sotto Z2103/Z2104 ci sono L277 oppure L584.
Tu, l’”Albanian/Balkan cluster”, e noi occidentali siamo soprattutto Z2103/Z2105+ ma L277- e L584-. Sembra che gli L23 orientali siano in gran parte non solo Z2103/Z2105+ ma anche L277+ oppure L584+. Qualcuno ha anche degli SNPs sotto L584+.
E’ per questo che io mi attendo di trovare uno Z2103/Z2105- fra gli L23+/L51- soprattutto nell’Europa Occidentale, dove secondo la mia teoria questo aplogruppo si è formato. E’ anche possibile che questo L23* non esista, come non abbiamo ancora trovato un P297*, e che questo nucleo originario sia sopravvissuto solo negli L51+. Vedremo.

Mirupashim edhe ja kalofsha sa më mirë, Gioiello


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: geni on October 26, 2012, 07:13:53 AM
Posso sapere qualcosa in  piu  del  Z2103+Z2105 ?

Caro Fega, ti scrivo in Italiano visto che me lo hai chiesto in Italiano. So che stai in Francia e, conoscendo il Francese, capisci meglio l’Italiano dell’Inglese. Z2103 e Z2105 sono stati trovati nel Progetto Mille Genomi. Sembra che essi siano equivalenti, visto che nessuno è stato trovato disgiunto per questi due SNPs. Essi si collocano sotto L23, e sembra che L150 non sia affidabile. Sotto L23* (non ancora trovato, visto che dovremmo trovare un L23+/L51-/Z2103 e Z2105-) ci sono appunto L51 e Z2103/Z2105. Sotto Z2103/Z2104 ci sono L277 oppure L584.
Tu, l’”Albanian/Balkan cluster”, e noi occidentali siamo soprattutto Z2103/Z2105+ ma L277- e L584-. Sembra che gli L23 orientali siano in gran parte non solo Z2103/Z2105+ ma anche L277+ oppure L584+. Qualcuno ha anche degli SNPs sotto L584+.
E’ per questo che io mi attendo di trovare uno Z2103/Z2105- fra gli L23+/L51- soprattutto nell’Europa Occidentale, dove secondo la mia teoria questo aplogruppo si è formato. E’ anche possibile che questo L23* non esista, come non abbiamo ancora trovato un P297*, e che questo nucleo originario sia sopravvissuto solo negli L51+. Vedremo.

Mirupashim edhe ja kalofsha sa më mirë, Gioiello

Allora Fega =    461=11 ,Z2103+Z2105+ .Uaauu avevi ragione  Gioiello......adesso ho visto  gli altri risultati


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Jarman on October 26, 2012, 08:04:55 AM
New Results:

Robinson/Robbins sample 37486 is now Z2105+

Previously tested L584-

FWIW:  Dys461=11,  DYS425=null,  YCAII=18-23

Now where in Scotland did their ancestor live and how did he get there?


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Terry Barton on October 26, 2012, 09:04:46 AM
This is an English language based Forum.  Anyone desiring to conduct discussions in another language should find another Forum.

Gioiello, Please translate the two recent posts into English, so that all may read, or remove them. 

Otherwise, i will remove them.  Thanks, Terry


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Richard Rocca on October 26, 2012, 10:03:36 AM
Geni, can you add more details to your paternal ancestor's name. Here is a good example from one of your fellow Z2105+ members:

Pietro Stasi, b. 1854, Potenza, Italy


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 26, 2012, 11:22:05 AM
This is an English language based Forum.  Anyone desiring to conduct discussions in another language should find another Forum.

Gioiello, Please translate the two recent posts into English, so that all may read, or remove them.  

Otherwise, i will remove them.  Thanks, Terry

I have written to Fega in Italians because he asked me in Italian and, of course, when I write in Italian, which is my mother tongue, I use a language very different from when I (try to) write in English, which I don’t know at the same level than Italian. Anyway…

Dear Fega, I write to you in Italian seen that you asked me in Italian. I know that you live in France and, knowing French, you understand better Italian than English. Z2103 and Z2105 have been found in the 1KGP. It seems that they are at the same level, seen that nobody has been found disjoined for these two SNPs. They are put under L23, and it seems that L150 isn’t reliable. Under L23* (not yet found so far, seen that we should find a L23+/L51-/Z2103 and Z2105-) there are just L51 and Z2103/Z2105. Under Z2103/Z2105 there are L277 or L584.
You, the “Albanian/Balkan cluster”, and we Western Europeans are above all Z2103/Z2105+ but L277- and L584-. It seems the Eastern L23 are above all not only Z2103/Z2105+ but also L277+ or L584+. Someone gets also some SNPs under L584+.
It is for this that I expect to find one Z2103/Z2105- amongst the L23+/L51- above all in Western Europe, where my theory presupposes that this haplogroup was born. It is also possible that this L23* doesn’t exist , as we haven’t found a P297* yet, and that this original nucleus has survived only in the L51+. We will see.

Mirupashim edhe ja kalofsha sa më mire (it is Albanian, in English I’d have said Kind Regards), Gioiello

Hope that my translation is in an understandable English.




Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 26, 2012, 11:40:25 AM
Geni, can you add more details to your paternal ancestor's name. Here is a good example from one of your fellow Z2105+ members:

Pietro Stasi, b. 1854, Potenza, Italy

Fega probably has some difficulties to write in English, living in France and speaking French beside Albanian, but I think I may answer for him. He belongs to the “Albanian/Balkan cluster” like Ciulla, Arberesh from Xora I Arbereshevet (Sicily), and many others on the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” and in many last papers about Balkan peoples. They have DYS385=11-11 or 10-11, DYS459a=8, DYS446=14 or more. Stasi is an Italian surname, diffused overall in Italy, and doesn’t belong to the Albanian/Balkan cluster.

95875 Pietro Stasi, b 1854, Potenza, Italy Italy R1b1a2a1
12 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 19 17 35-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21-24 15 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 20 13 13 11 13 11 11 12 12

E12439 FEGA Albania R1b1a2a1
13 24 14 11 10-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 16-16-16-17 12 11 19-23 15 15 17 18 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 9 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 21 20 16 12 11 13 10 11 12 12  
84950 Peter or Pietro Ciulla, b.1880s, Sicily (Arberesh) Italy R1b1a2a
13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-16 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 17 37-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 18 8 12 21 20 16 12 11 13 10 11 12 12                                                                                        
N76544 Andre Kajtazi, b. 19th century, Zym, Prizren, Koso Albania R1b1a2a1
13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-16-16-17 12 10 19-23 16 15 17 17 36-36 12 12  
E14374 Luan Idrizaj 1850-?Albanian from Gjakova, Kosova Kosovo R1b1a2a1
13 23 14 11 11-11 12 12 13 13 13 30 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 12 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 15 12 11 13 10 11 12 12  
162445 George Panopoulos Greece R1b1a2a1
13 24 14 11 10-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 13-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 38-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 15 12 12 13 10 11 12 12


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Wayne Kauffman on October 26, 2012, 12:24:12 PM
Still curious as to whether we have any other R-L23 individuals who have a Geno 2.0 test on order.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Terry Barton on October 26, 2012, 02:14:13 PM
Thank You!


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 27, 2012, 12:19:13 PM
Gioiello, congratulations on your Z2105+ results! It will be interesting to see where the line of demarcation is for L51 and Z2105 lineages. Do you have any close matches with the other Z2105+ kits?

You ask me which could be the R-L23 candidate for Z2105-. We are seeing that the R-L23 tested so far are all Z2105+, and the Western European ones are also L277- and L584-, whereas the Eastern ones are above all L277+ or L584+, then not ancestors of L51.

Some years ago I found on SMGF and put on ySearch Risso (Pra, Genova, Italy), ySearch EK3WY, I interpreted like the far ancestor of the Albanian/Balkan cluster. These are his values for SMGF (43 markers format):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 12 12 10 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 30 24

Very close to him is this Beecham from the Isles (ySearch TN2ZH):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 14 12 14 13 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 13 12 12 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 12 30 24

They belong to the same cluster, but of course they may be separated from thousands of years, the time of expansion from Italy to the Isles.

They are R-L23 (see *DYS461=11, mutated in Risso to 10 and in Beecham to 12) and they presupposes also DYS393=13 like the Albanian/Balkan cluster, mutated in both to 14. Interesting is their DYS464=15-16-16-17, which presupposes:

14-15-16-18 to 14-15-16-17 to 15-15-16-17

From this asset they had 15-16-16-17, whereas the ancestor of the subclades from L51 to the others had 15-15-17-17.

We find this asset also in N24769 from India, difficult to think that the ancestor was there, given the negligible number of R-L23 there, better a migration from West.

Of course I may be not sure that these are L23+/Z2105-, but perhaps it would merit to test someone of this cluster.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Jarman on October 27, 2012, 12:37:20 PM
Gioiello, congratulations on your Z2105+ results! It will be interesting to see where the line of demarcation is for L51 and Z2105 lineages. Do you have any close matches with the other Z2105+ kits?

You ask me which could be the R-L23 candidate for Z2105-. We are seeing that the R-L23 tested so far are all Z2105+, and the Western European ones are also L277- and L584-, whereas the Eastern ones are above all L277+ or L584+, then not ancestors of L51.

Some years ago I found on SMGF and put on ySearch Risso (Pra, Genova, Italy), ySearch EK3WY, I interpreted like the far ancestor of the Albanian/Balkan cluster. These are his values for SMGF (43 markers format):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 12 12 10 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 30 24

Very close to him is this Beecham from the Isles (ySearch TN2ZH):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 14 12 14 13 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 13 12 12 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 12 30 24

They belong to the same cluster, but of course they may be separated from thousands of years, the time of expansion from Italy to the Isles.

They are R-L23 (see *DYS461=11, mutated in Risso to 10 and in Beecham to 12) and they presupposes also DYS393=13 like the Albanian/Balkan cluster, mutated in both to 14. Interesting is their DYS464=15-16-16-17, which presupposes:

14-15-16-18 to 14-15-16-17 to 15-15-16-17

From this asset they had 15-16-16-17, whereas the ancestor of the subclades from L51 to the others had 15-15-17-17.

We find this asset also in N24769 from India, difficult to think that the ancestor was there, given the negligible number of R-L23 there, better a migration from West.

Of course I may be not sure that these are L23+/Z2105-, but perhaps it would merit to test someone of this cluster.


I'm trying to understand what is going on here with DSY393.  I had thought the L51+ became DYS393=13 while L23* remained DYS393=12. Shouldn't this pattern continue to hold true with Z2105+?


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 27, 2012, 12:53:54 PM
A little search on YHRD:
3 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 14 19 17 17 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 14 19 17 17 23 12 19 22 13 12 18 10 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 13 13 15 19 14 17 24 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>

2 of 1476 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 208 Sao Paulo State, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 49 Idaho, USA [Basque] Eurasian - European - Western European North America
1 of 100 Cape Town, South Africa [European-English] Eurasian - European Africa
1 of 97 Birmingham, United Kingdom [English] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 275 Hamburg, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 653 Buenos Aires, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America

1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 14 19 17 17 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 14 19 17 17 23 12 19 22 13 12 18 10 >>

1 of 49 Idaho, USA [Basque] Eurasian - European - Western European North America
1 of 1475 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America

The closest to Beecham is this guy, with his values but with probably the ancestor DYS389=13-29 we find also in Risso:
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 1475 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America

This American comes from the neighbourhood of Coffeyville (Kansas).


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 27, 2012, 01:00:22 PM
I'm trying to understand what is going on here with DSY393.  I had thought the L51+ became DYS393=13 while L23* remained DYS393=12. Shouldn't this pattern continue to hold true with Z2105+?

Of course we don't know. All these samples belong to the paragroup of R-L23* and we have to test all them, hoping to find some L23+/Z2105-. I have made some hypotheses, trying to find which haplotype probably descend from the closest group from which comes the ancestor of R-L51+. Of course being R-L51 above all Italian and expanded to France and the Isles I think that we'll find this sample here, anyway I think in Western Europe.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: acekon on October 29, 2012, 10:19:18 AM
I'm trying to understand what is going on here with DSY393.  I had thought the L51+ became DYS393=13 while L23* remained DYS393=12. Shouldn't this pattern continue to hold true with Z2105+?

Of course we don't know. All these samples belong to the paragroup of R-L23* and we have to test all them, hoping to find some L23+/Z2105-. I have made some hypotheses, trying to find which haplotype probably descend from the closest group from which comes the ancestor of R-L51+. Of course being R-L51 above all Italian and expanded to France and the Isles I think that we'll find this sample here, anyway I think in Western Europe.

However we do know that some are Z2105 L277+ L584+ and L277- L584- therefore there must be yet undiscovered line/lines.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: saje on October 29, 2012, 10:26:11 AM
I was told by a Family Tree DNA administrator that I may test positive for Z2105.  I ordered the test last week.  Awaiting results. 

If I test positive, where should I go next - L584?  L277?

Will these tests be able to tell me further where my ancestors came from? 


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: acekon on October 29, 2012, 12:08:09 PM
I was told by a Family Tree DNA administrator that I may test positive for Z2105.  I ordered the test last week.  Awaiting results.  

If I test positive, where should I go next - L584?  L277?

Will these tests be able to tell me further where my ancestors came from?  

I would first compare your str markers slow/medium/fast mutations  with others in z2105 to get a rough idea. Are you listed on ysearch?

For example, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, take my ideas with a grain of salt; so do your own research, I have noticed the following.

393-.00076  slow
390-.00311  medium
19(394)-.00151 medium
391-.00265 medium
385-.00226 medium
426-.00009 slow
388-.00022 slow
439-.00477 medium
398I-.00186 medium
392-.00052 slow
389II-.00242 medium


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 29, 2012, 01:08:50 PM
Are you listed on ysearch?

This is the first question to put. There is a “Flying Greek” on these forums, then; “saje”, or whoever you are: your STRs above all, and after I’ll do my analysis.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: saje on October 29, 2012, 01:24:25 PM
Hi Maliclavelli!

I am listed on Ysearch - XQE85.  Thanks!  I am searching for the origins of my paternal family. 

Hi Acekon,

Thanks for the post.  And please forgive my novice questions in advance.  What are slow/medium/fast mutations? 

Thanks!  This forum has been so informative, friendly and helpful. 

Best,

Saje


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: Jarman on October 29, 2012, 05:49:50 PM
New Results:
Robinson/Robbins sample 37486 is now Z2105+
Previously tested L584-
FWIW:  Dys461=11,  DYS425=null,  YCAII=18-23
Now where in Scotland did their ancestor live and how did he get there?

This Robinson/Robbins family traces back to an unspecified home in Scotland in the very early 1600s. How could an R-L23>Z2105+ get to Scotland?  Is it Pictish? I've seen speculation that their ancestor was a Roman auxilary soldier, but wouldn't sources that old have produced a bigger presence among Scots today?  Could this haplogroup have reasonably been carried to Scotland by Norwegians or Vikings?


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: acekon on October 30, 2012, 11:40:33 AM
Hi Maliclavelli!

I am listed on Ysearch - XQE85.  Thanks!  I am searching for the origins of my paternal family.  

Hi Acekon,

Thanks for the post.  And please forgive my novice questions in advance.  What are slow/medium/fast mutations?  

Thanks!  This forum has been so informative, friendly and helpful.  

Best,

Saje

 After looking at your profile on ysearch I'll  go out on a limb and make a prediction, you look like you will  fit in, with Eastern European cluster, Z2105+ and L277- L584- ,just speculation though, so take it with a grain of salt . Genetic distance with "Bruce"SC2HJ from Bavaria/Bayern, Germany 14/67 R1b1a2a1a1b4 (tested) and also FEPAF-Osset. Very interesting, maybe there is a pattern developing here.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: acekon on October 30, 2012, 01:14:41 PM
Gioiello, congratulations on your Z2105+ results! It will be interesting to see where the line of demarcation is for L51 and Z2105 lineages. Do you have any close matches with the other Z2105+ kits?

You ask me which could be the R-L23 candidate for Z2105-. We are seeing that the R-L23 tested so far are all Z2105+, and the Western European ones are also L277- and L584-, whereas the Eastern ones are above all L277+ or L584+, then not ancestors of L51.

Some years ago I found on SMGF and put on ySearch Risso (Pra, Genova, Italy), ySearch EK3WY, I interpreted like the far ancestor of the Albanian/Balkan cluster. These are his values for SMGF (43 markers format):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 12 12 10 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 30 24

Very close to him is this Beecham from the Isles (ySearch TN2ZH):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 14 12 14 13 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 13 12 12 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 12 30 24

They belong to the same cluster, but of course they may be separated from thousands of years, the time of expansion from Italy to the Isles.

They are R-L23 (see *DYS461=11, mutated in Risso to 10 and in Beecham to 12) and they presupposes also DYS393=13 like the Albanian/Balkan cluster, mutated in both to 14. Interesting is their DYS464=15-16-16-17, which presupposes:

14-15-16-18 to 14-15-16-17 to 15-15-16-17

From this asset they had 15-16-16-17, whereas the ancestor of the subclades from L51 to the others had 15-15-17-17.

We find this asset also in N24769 from India, difficult to think that the ancestor was there, given the negligible number of R-L23 there, better a migration from West.

Of course I may be not sure that these are L23+/Z2105-, but perhaps it would merit to test someone of this cluster.


I'm trying to understand what is going on here with DSY393.  I had thought the L51+ became DYS393=13 while L23* remained DYS393=12. Shouldn't this pattern continue to hold true with Z2105+?

393-12/13, can go either way, it is good to verify other results.

We have to wait for Saje results. However Genetic distance with "Bruce"SC2HJ from Bavaria/Bayern, Germany [14/67] R1b1a2a1a1b4 (tested). who has 393-13
13   24   14   10   11   15   12   12   12   13   13   30   

I'm confirmed Z2105+ L277- L584-, which i think Saje will be also, [speculation]
I match "Callsen", and private surname"M"  from Northern Germany, Denmark,  and "Briskey" from Hesse Darmstadt, Germany, all three of these have 393-12, they are all verified     R1b1a2a1a1b4 according to my FamilyTreeDna Ydna match screen with terminal snp L21.

Also Callsen matched  on slow markers 393[12],426[12],388[12],392[13],455[11],454[11],437[15],438[12].

medium matches
390[24],19[14],391[10],385[11-14],439[11],389I[14],389II[31]
459[9-10],447[25],448[19],ycaII[19-23]

medium matches off by one.
460 [10_11],Gata H-4 [10_11], 607 [ 15_16] ,442[11_12]

That is why i find Saje's genetic distance with "Bruce" Bavaria/Bayern, Germany [14/67] R1b1a2a1a1b4 (tested) also of interest, even though 393-12 and 393-13 are different.

I also like A, Klyosov's work and ideas. However it is very coincidental that Callsen's  derived lineage line 312-21 could be so matchy and so close to my paternal ancestors, 200+/- kms.


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: saje on October 30, 2012, 01:25:25 PM
Hello Acekon,

Thanks for your time and expertise.  I will let you know the results of my Z2105 test as soon as possible.  They say by November 20th.  Please keep me posted as to this "pattern" you speak of and how I can help further any findings for myself and the community. 

I think it's interesting that I have German and Osset matches.  Looks like I can test Geno 2; although I just sent away for AncestryDNA.  I can also test for L584, L277 SNPS...

Best,

Saje


Title: Re: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)
Post by: saje on October 30, 2012, 01:46:21 PM
Is L277 and L584 the only SNPs that live downstream of L2105?  I'd like to test as far as I can. 

It's very interesting that I've matched with Slovak and Hungarians and also Osset - who's people lived in Hungary at one time (from what I've read).