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Title: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 04, 2012, 02:09:57 PM
DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
5th EMPOP Meeting
8th Y-Chromosomal User Workshop
Innsbruck, Sep 06-08 2012

http://dna2012.gerichtsmedizin.at/files/DNA_in_Forensics_2012.pdf (http://dna2012.gerichtsmedizin.at/files/DNA_in_Forensics_2012.pdf)

Some interesting snippets from some of the abstracts:

Larmuseau et al - Increasing phylogenetic resolution still informative for Y-chromosomal studies on West-European populations
Now, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient."

It looks like they probably tested Z series SNPs and also L21. They seem to confirm not only the previously observed north=U106/south=U152 in Flanders, but also an East-West split. This could be a big deal, especially if it relates to a geographical tendency for L21 (west?) especially since P312(xU152) was second to U106 in R1b SNP frequency in their prior papers.

Berger et al - Tracking the Iceman’s scent by high resolution mapping of Y haplogroup G in Tyrol (Austria)
A population sample comprising 3,713 specimens from men living in Tyrol was genotyped for 19 Y-SNPs by single-nucleotide primer extension. This set included the G2a defining marker P15. Preliminary results indicated that app. 11% of the Y chromosomes belonged to G2a. The spatial distribution of this Hg featured unexpectedly high densities within or near the Ötztal Alps. L91 and additional SNPs such as L32, L487, and L645 are increasing the resolution within G2a and
will refine this pattern.

[Rocca Comment] They will probably get down to the very lowest levels of G2a, but probably not far down with R1b

Mielnik et al - The history of Slavs in the light of Y chromosome and mtDNA variability
Y chromosome diversity was analyzed using a panel of 11 SNP polymorphisms (including M458 – so called “Western Slavic marker”) and 17 Y-STRs on 154 DNA samples from Ukrainians. These results were compared to previously published data from Slavic and non-Slavic populations...The overall picture of Y chromosome and mtDNA diversity in Central Europe corresponds well with origin and later expansion of Corded Ware European culture. Thus, we suggest that genetic continuity existed in Central Europe between Bronze Age and Middle Ages when the earliest Slavic tribes were described.

[Rocca Comment] An STR study that will likely not be of much value

Coia et al - Y chromosome variation in geographically and linguistically isolated populations from oriental Alps
In this study, we have investigated the genetic structure of thirteen populations (for a total of 533 individuals) from the Eastern Italian Alps. These include six linguistically isolated groups - five German-speaking communities (among which Cimbrians from Luserna and Giazza, and the communities from Sappada, Sauris and Timau) and one Ladin-speaking group from Trentino. All samples were typed for 17 microsatellites (Y-filer profile) and 57 Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms in order to get an exhaustive overview of their Y chromosome variation and haplogroups composition.

[Rocca Comment] 57 SNPs is probably enough to get down to the U152/L21 level
 
Carnogurska  - Y chromosome DNA variation monitored in Slovakian populations by SNP and STR analysis
49 Y-chromosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) and 17 Y-chromosomal STR loci were tested in 525 unrelated male individuals from East Slovakia: Slovak population (n=243) and two Romany populations.

[Rocca Comment] An STR study that will likely not be of much value

Caratti et al - Y chromosome diversity in Piedmont
Y-chromosomal variability of 17 short tandem repeat (STR) and 18 single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP) loci was evaluated in three different population samples from Piedmont (North West Italy): Biella (Northern Piedmont, n=80); Trino (Central Piedmont, n=46); Cuneo (Southern Piedmont, n=90).

[Rocca Comment] An STR study that will likely not be of much value. Unfortunate because this is where U152 seems to start to drop off and P312* takes off.

Karimnia et al - Forensic science applied on prehistoric remains - a nine fold burial of the 4th millennium BC raised questions about kinship, locality, and circumstances of death
Mitochondrial haplotypes and haplogroups were identified by sequencing of the hypervariable segments I and II of the control region and by analyzing 22 diagnostic coding region single nucleotide polymorphisms.

[Rocca Comment] Unfortunately no Y-DNA, just mtDNA. Hopefully some cooler heads will put the brakes on this mtDNA-only testing soon in light of recent advances in ancient DNA testing that will probably yield Y-DNA results.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 04, 2012, 02:19:13 PM
I thought to go, perhaps with my daughter who speaks German perfectly, but at this point probably not. My work has just begun again.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Jean M on September 04, 2012, 02:24:18 PM
Coia et al - Y chromosome variation in geographically and linguistically isolated populations from oriental Alps

That study seems already to be out: Coia et al, Evidence of high genetic variation among linguistically diverse populations on a micro-geographic scale: a case study of the Italian Alps (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v57/n4/full/jhg201214a.html), Journal of Human Genetics 57, 254-260 (April 2012)


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 04, 2012, 02:41:20 PM
Coia et al - Y chromosome variation in geographically and linguistically isolated populations from oriental Alps

That study seems already to be out: Coia et al, Evidence of high genetic variation among linguistically diverse populations on a micro-geographic scale: a case study of the Italian Alps (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v57/n4/full/jhg201214a.html), Journal of Human Genetics 57, 254-260 (April 2012)

It seems they expanded the sample size from 393 to 533 and the April abstract only makes mention of the 17 STRs and not the 57 SNPs. Also, the co-author list is different. So, I'm assuming this is an incremental study to the one from April.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Dubhthach on September 04, 2012, 03:10:37 PM
I'm looking forward to hearing more about the Flemish study, obviously L21 wasn't tested in previous studies and there was an awful lot of P312xU152, so it should be interesting. It would also help us fill in some more of gaps regarding continental L21 distribution.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Maliclavelli on September 04, 2012, 03:10:50 PM
"L91 and additional SNPs such as L32, L487, and L645 are increasing the resolution within G2a and will refine this pattern".

Probably L497!


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 05, 2012, 03:02:58 AM
In the Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-project they indeed tested the R1b-P312 SNP's for M529 (equivalent for L21?).
37% of the P312*(x U152, SRY2627) were found  to be R1b-M529+ (77/208).
I asked for more information, but the project administration doesn't respond. They probably wait for the publication.

Regards,
Jean-Pierre.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 05, 2012, 03:17:07 AM
The statistics for R1b so far in the Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-project are:

Out of 981 participants:

R1b-M343+ : 61,2%
R-U106 : 26,1%
R-P312* (x U152, M529, SRY2627): 13,4%
R-U152 : 10,4%
R-M529 : 7,9%
SRY2627 : 0,6%

I also would like to mention that one person (0,1%) in the Belgian province of Limburg was found to be Hg A-M91.

Jean-Pierre.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: df.reynolds on September 05, 2012, 03:22:37 AM
...
 M529 (equivalent for L21?).

Yes, M529 is an alternate name for L21.

--david


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Dubhthach on September 05, 2012, 03:36:12 AM
The statistics for R1b so far in the Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-project are:

Out of 981 participants:

R1b-M343+ : 61,2%
R-U106 : 26,1%
R-P312* (x U152, M529, SRY2627): 13,4%
R-U152 : 10,4%
R-M529 : 7,9%
SRY2627 : 0,6%

I also would like to mention that one person (0,1%) in the Belgian province of Limburg was found to be Hg A-M91.

Jean-Pierre.

Thanks for updated stats, the P312 (x U152, M529, SRY2627) still makes up a big chunk I'm assuming nothing like Z196 or DF27 were tested. It will be interesting to see what exactly the East <-> West gradient is, I'm assuming it might be to do with frequency of L21 been higher in west.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: rms2 on September 05, 2012, 06:42:18 AM
It's nice to finally see a figure for L21 out of that project. Eight percent is fairly substantial, and not too far behind U152 there. If I recall correctly, nearby in northeastern France, L21 rises to 10 percent and then increases steadily as one moves west.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 05, 2012, 08:45:03 AM
The statistics for R1b so far in the Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-project are:

Out of 981 participants:

R1b-M343+ : 61,2%
R-U106 : 26,1%
R-P312* (x U152, M529, SRY2627): 13,4%
R-U152 : 10,4%
R-M529 : 7,9%
SRY2627 : 0,6%

I also would like to mention that one person (0,1%) in the Belgian province of Limburg was found to be Hg A-M91.

Jean-Pierre.

Jean-Pierre, that's great to hear as it was not originally tested and Larmuseau has not included L21 in any of his published studies. Hopefully this one will. Since you have access to the data, do you see any possible east-west cline based on L21 or U106 subclades?


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 05, 2012, 12:30:10 PM
Richard,

I don't have access to the data. On 27 july there was a message on the Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-forum from prof. R. Decorte that Manfred Kayser in Rotterdam had tested more underlying SNP's, especialy under R1b, and that the results would be reported in september. He mentioned the detection of 37% M529 within P312*, and also underlying SNP's for the 7 Hg T-M70 results. No other SNP's were mentioned in that message, but I hope that R-L2 was also tested.
My questions to the administrators have not been answered.

Jean-Pierre.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 05, 2012, 05:32:07 PM
The statistics for R1b so far in the Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-project are:

Out of 981 participants:

R1b-M343+ : 61,2%
R-U106 : 26,1%
R-P312* (x U152, M529, SRY2627): 13,4%
R-U152 : 10,4%
R-M529 : 7,9%
SRY2627 : 0,6%

I also would like to mention that one person (0,1%) in the Belgian province of Limburg was found to be Hg A-M91.

Jean-Pierre.

So that is percentages of the entire tested Y population?  That is very interesting.  It looks (especially if further resolution of P312* was done) that the non-U106 R1b element is very eveny split up in Belgium.  I didnt expect that.  I actually thought U152 would be dominant.  The very low SRY2627 is not something I really expected too.  I makes me wonder if there is something very interesting about Belgian P312*.  Is it true P312* or DF27 or a mix? 

Is this a Flemish sample or all Belgium?


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 05, 2012, 08:49:31 PM

So that is percentages of the entire tested Y population?  That is very interesting.  It looks (especially if further resolution of P312* was done) that the non-U106 R1b element is very eveny split up in Belgium.  I didnt expect that.  I actually thought U152 would be dominant.  The very low SRY2627 is not something I really expected too.  I makes me wonder if there is something very interesting about Belgian P312*.  Is it true P312* or DF27 or a mix? 

Is this a Flemish sample or all Belgium?

Most samples come from the Brabant region. The U152 result is higher in those with French surnames (~16%) and lower in Flemish surnames. The opposite is seen with U106 and even more drastically.

I have a feeling Belgian P312* will wind up looking more like British P312* where some are DF27 but some are also of the boutique variety (L238, DF19, true P312**etc.).


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 07, 2012, 11:51:54 AM
I find the fact that L21 is nearly one in ten of Brabant men quite surprising.  IF U106 is a late intrusion that has dimished the percentages of the rest then that is even more surprising as it indicates it may have once been significantly higher.  It kind of shows to me that U152 diminishes from its Alpine peak in both a westerly and a northerly direction while L21 does the opposite.

I have a hunch that L21 in Belgium may have originally have followed this pattern with L21 higher in the north and U152 higher in the south.  However, if that is true then L21 would have been in the zone where it would have been more diminished by U106 than U152 would have been.   In the isles U106 seems to be the main diminisher of L21 and I have a strong suspicion the same is true on the continent.  Perhaps L21 once was a big player on the seaways all the way to Scandinavia.  U152 as a more dominant inland clade in west-central Europe may have been less effected by U106's biggest zone of impact.  

Of course frequency and origin are different things.  Its hard to say if L21 just had a NW trajectory from the more easterly parts of its range and pooled in NW France and the isles or if it originated in the west and moved up the rivers and coast heading eastward.  The peak of L21X DF13 on the continent seems to suggest L21 spread from Atlantic France.  They simply cant be derived from DF13 so that seems the logical conclusion.  The big expansion of L21 seems to have been through DF13 which is also present in the L21XDF13 area and seems to totally dominate the rest of its continental range.  So, it looks to me that L21 originated in Atlantic France with the variance dating suggesting a beaker origin.

L21* clearly originated in a  a non-DF27 P312* lineage.  So that to me is the next big question.   Where is there a concenration of these lineages?              


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Heber on September 08, 2012, 05:53:27 AM
The number for L21 is 7.9%. There is a definate east to west cline with French speaking on the West having higher L21 and Flemish speakers on the east having lower L21 and higher U152 and U106.
I understand the team is working on the SNPs downstream of L21, U152 and U106.
Since they are using 1000 Genome data to build their tree this should be quiet detailed results.
This should yield additional interesting insights into L21 when it is eventually published.

Increasing phylogenetic resolution still informative for Y-chromosomal studies on West-European populations
Larmuseau MH1,2,3,*, Vanderheyden N1, Van Oven M4, Kayser M4, Decorte R5,2
1UZ Leuven, Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, Belgium
2KU Leuven, Department of Imaging & Pathology, Forensic Medicine, Leuven, Belgium
3KU Leuven, Department of Biology, Laboratory of Biodiversity and Evolutionary Genomics, Leuven, Belgium 4Department of Forensic Molecular Biology, Erasmus MC, University Medical Center Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Netherlands
5Katholieke Universiteit Leuven; Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, Belgium
An increasing number of Y-chromosomal SNPs are becoming available besides the set of SNPs which were used to achieve the latest published phylogenetic tree of the human Y chromosome by the Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) in 2008. Many Y-chromosomal lineages which are defined in this tree were mostly distributed in (Western) Europe due to the fact that most research projects are focusing on this area. Therefore the question arises if newly discovered polymorphisms on the Y-chromosome will still be interesting for Western Europeans on a population genetic level.
To answer this research question, the West-European region of Flanders (Belgium) was selected as study area since its Y-chromosomal variation and distribution are well known in detail. In this region, more than 1000 Y chromosomes which were genotyped at the highest resolution of the YCC-tree were coupled to the in-depth genealogical data of the autochthonous DNA donors. Based on these data the temporal changes of the population genetic pattern within Flanders are well studied for the last centuries, and the effects of several past gene flow events were identified.
Now, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient. In this talk we will discuss therefore the informative value of recently discovered Y-SNPs for population genetic studies within Western Europe. The results suggest that an update of the Y-chromosomal tree based on new polymorphisms will give the opportunity to study population genetic patterns in more detail, even in an already well-studied region such as Western Europe.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 08, 2012, 06:16:29 AM
The number for L21 is 7.9%. There is a definate east to west cline with French speaking on the West having higher L21 and Flemish speakers on the east having lower L21 and higher U152 and U106.
I understand the team is working on the SNPs downstream of L21, U152 and U106.
Since they are using 1000 Genome data to build their tree this should be quiet detailed results.
This should yield additional interesting insights into L21 when it is eventually published.

Increasing phylogenetic resolution still informative for Y-chromosomal studies on West-European populations
Larmuseau MH1,2,3,*, Vanderheyden N1, Van Oven M4, Kayser M4, Decorte R5,2
1UZ Leuven, Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, Belgium
2KU Leuven, Department of Imaging & Pathology, Forensic Medicine, Leuven, Belgium
3KU Leuven, Department of Biology, Laboratory of Biodiversity and Evolutionary Genomics, Leuven, Belgium 4Department of Forensic Molecular Biology, Erasmus MC, University Medical Center Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Netherlands
5Katholieke Universiteit Leuven; Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, Belgium
An increasing number of Y-chromosomal SNPs are becoming available besides the set of SNPs which were used to achieve the latest published phylogenetic tree of the human Y chromosome by the Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) in 2008. Many Y-chromosomal lineages which are defined in this tree were mostly distributed in (Western) Europe due to the fact that most research projects are focusing on this area. Therefore the question arises if newly discovered polymorphisms on the Y-chromosome will still be interesting for Western Europeans on a population genetic level.
To answer this research question, the West-European region of Flanders (Belgium) was selected as study area since its Y-chromosomal variation and distribution are well known in detail. In this region, more than 1000 Y chromosomes which were genotyped at the highest resolution of the YCC-tree were coupled to the in-depth genealogical data of the autochthonous DNA donors. Based on these data the temporal changes of the population genetic pattern within Flanders are well studied for the last centuries, and the effects of several past gene flow events were identified.
Now, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient. In this talk we will discuss therefore the informative value of recently discovered Y-SNPs for population genetic studies within Western Europe. The results suggest that an update of the Y-chromosomal tree based on new polymorphisms will give the opportunity to study population genetic patterns in more detail, even in an already well-studied region such as Western Europe.

Is this paper available.  What are the details of the clines in L21 in Belgium?


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Heber on September 08, 2012, 06:27:41 AM
The number for L21 is 7.9%. There is a definate east to west cline with French speaking on the West having higher L21 and Flemish speakers on the east having lower L21 and higher U152 and U106.
I understand the team is working on the SNPs downstream of L21, U152 and U106.
Since they are using 1000 Genome data to build their tree this should be quiet detailed results.
This should yield additional interesting insights into L21 when it is eventually published.

Increasing phylogenetic resolution still informative for Y-chromosomal studies on West-European populations
Larmuseau MH1,2,3,*, Vanderheyden N1, Van Oven M4, Kayser M4, Decorte R5,2
1UZ Leuven, Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, Belgium
2KU Leuven, Department of Imaging & Pathology, Forensic Medicine, Leuven, Belgium
3KU Leuven, Department of Biology, Laboratory of Biodiversity and Evolutionary Genomics, Leuven, Belgium 4Department of Forensic Molecular Biology, Erasmus MC, University Medical Center Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Netherlands
5Katholieke Universiteit Leuven; Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, Belgium
An increasing number of Y-chromosomal SNPs are becoming available besides the set of SNPs which were used to achieve the latest published phylogenetic tree of the human Y chromosome by the Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) in 2008. Many Y-chromosomal lineages which are defined in this tree were mostly distributed in (Western) Europe due to the fact that most research projects are focusing on this area. Therefore the question arises if newly discovered polymorphisms on the Y-chromosome will still be interesting for Western Europeans on a population genetic level.
To answer this research question, the West-European region of Flanders (Belgium) was selected as study area since its Y-chromosomal variation and distribution are well known in detail. In this region, more than 1000 Y chromosomes which were genotyped at the highest resolution of the YCC-tree were coupled to the in-depth genealogical data of the autochthonous DNA donors. Based on these data the temporal changes of the population genetic pattern within Flanders are well studied for the last centuries, and the effects of several past gene flow events were identified.
Now, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient. In this talk we will discuss therefore the informative value of recently discovered Y-SNPs for population genetic studies within Western Europe. The results suggest that an update of the Y-chromosomal tree based on new polymorphisms will give the opportunity to study population genetic patterns in more detail, even in an already well-studied region such as Western Europe.

Is this paper available.  What are the details of the clines in L21 in Belgium?

Alan,
Here is the reference to the paper. I don't have access to the database. I understand the detailed work on downstream SNPs is ongoing and not date is available for publication.

https://lirias.kuleuven.be/handle/123456789/350824


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 08, 2012, 06:28:34 AM
Wow, reading what I assume is Dutch, its so like English it is amazing.  I can basically read Dutch with very little difficulty.  


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Heber on September 08, 2012, 07:25:37 AM
It occurred to me that L21, U152 and U106 map quiet well with the three kingdoms of the Holy Roman Empire ruled by Charles the Bald, Lothair and Louis the German following the death of Charlemagne.
Lothairs territory was a narrow strip from Brabant to the Alps. Of course L21, U152 and U106 were born much earlier. It is also interesting to note that Brabant had a large influx of Spanish in the 16th C and was known as the Spanish Netherlands.
It will be interesting to see if the study picks up traces of this period.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/frankish_influence_modern_europe.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen_Provinces


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Richard Rocca on September 08, 2012, 07:27:30 AM
While the smart money is on L21 being responsible for whatever west-east cline, I wouldn't rule out something regarding U106 subclades or haplogroup G.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 08, 2012, 05:05:36 PM
Quote from Heber: "The number for L21 is 7.9%. There is a definate east to west cline with French speaking on the West having higher L21 and Flemish speakers on the east having lower L21".

Belgium is divided by Flemish speakers in the north and French speakers in the south, and not east/west like mentioned.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Heber on September 08, 2012, 05:33:06 PM
I understand the scope of the study is Brabant, not Belgium. Here is an extract.

"Now, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient. "


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: chris1 on September 08, 2012, 09:35:14 PM
Will be interesting to eventually know something about DF27, DF19, L238, P312* in studies like this too.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 09, 2012, 02:28:00 AM
It says Flemish. Flandren is the northern part of Belgium.

If one speaks about Brabant, one should know about wich Brabant one is talking, since Brabant doesn't exist anymore:

- The old Duchy of Brabant wich contained the present provinces of Vlaams-Brabant, Brabant-Wallon, and Antwerpen in Belgium, and Noord-Brabant and parts of Limburg in the Netherlands.
- Noord-Brabant in the Netherlands.
- Vlaams-Brabant and Brabant-Wallon in Belgium.

The Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-project started with about 500 participants with proven ancestry in the old Duchy of Brabant. A year later about 400 participants of the rest of Belgium were tested. Few candidats of the French-speaking south were found.

The project is still ongoing, and since the latest publication of the results, about 170 people from Belgium and the south of the Netherlands were tested.

Now, if they say 1000 Flemish results, I wonder where they come from. Mayby it is from the total project after all.

Regards,
Jean-Pierre.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 09, 2012, 09:14:49 AM
It says Flemish. Flandren is the northern part of Belgium.

If one speaks about Brabant, one should know about wich Brabant one is talking, since Brabant doesn't exist anymore:

- The old Duchy of Brabant wich contained the present provinces of Vlaams-Brabant, Brabant-Wallon, and Antwerpen in Belgium, and Noord-Brabant and parts of Limburg in the Netherlands.
- Noord-Brabant in the Netherlands.
- Vlaams-Brabant and Brabant-Wallon in Belgium.

The Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-project started with about 500 participants with proven ancestry in the old Duchy of Brabant. A year later about 400 participants of the rest of Belgium were tested. Few candidats of the French-speaking south were found.

The project is still ongoing, and since the latest publication of the results, about 170 people from Belgium and the south of the Netherlands were tested.

Now, if they say 1000 Flemish results, I wonder where they come from. Mayby it is from the total project after all.

Regards,
Jean-Pierre.

Its certainly a very interesting sounding project. Any project that can look at clades across a linguistic/historic divide and compare is of major interest.  As well as suspecting U106 rises in the Dutch speaking areas I have a hunch that L21 and U152 will be patterned as well and that pattern could pre-date the arrival of U106.  I would tend to think that, ignoring U106, L21 would rise relative to U152 as we move west and north and U152 will rise relative to L21 as we head south and east. 


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: razyn on September 09, 2012, 10:47:12 AM
As well as suspecting U106 rises in the Dutch speaking areas I have a hunch that L21 and U152 will be patterned as well and that pattern could pre-date the arrival of U106.

I have a hunch it also pre-dates the speaking of Dutch, although those "areas" were there.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 09, 2012, 11:30:41 AM
As well as suspecting U106 rises in the Dutch speaking areas I have a hunch that L21 and U152 will be patterned as well and that pattern could pre-date the arrival of U106.

I have a hunch it also pre-dates the speaking of Dutch, although those "areas" were there.

At the moment I am influenced by the variance studies to see U106 as being holed up somewhere like Poland and east Germany prior to an expansion in the late Bronze Age.
That would make the low countries a place where L21, U152 and DF27 elements would have dominated the local R1b.  I suspect the L21 in the low countries is linked to the local beaker culture with its links to the isles and NW France which may have continued as a dominant influence into the late Bronze Age when central Europe (U152?) influences came in from the south.  I personally think that U106 didnt cross the Rhine until the Iron Age in the form of the Germanic elements among the Belgae.  So, I suspect that in the Low Countries to the west of the Rhine  in pre-U106 times, L21 (and maybe some DF27) may have been highest in the north and west and that U152 was higher on its southern areas.  

The direction of connectivity of the Low Countries to the west of the Rhine shifted somewhat from a north Atlantic one to a central European one late in the Bronze Age with the inflow of Urnfield, Hallstatt and La Tene influence (this was true of the entire former north Atlantic zone at this time).  However, I think that this was too late to change to eradicate the L21 element and may have often been influence rather than population change.  L21 would seem easiest interpeted as a relic of a north Atlantic zone network that commenced in the beaker period c. 2500BC and didnt start to lose its grip in that area until 700BC when ripples of the more central European Urnfield, Hallstatt flowed in to varying degrees depending on distance from that zone.  A lot of these changes may have been struggles among elites to control trade rather than large land annexation and it takes time for change of elite to impact large existing populations below them.  Hence its a pretty mixed group in areas like the Low Countries and the impact or previous elites was never wiped out genetically.    


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: rms2 on September 09, 2012, 07:07:04 PM
Apparently the P312 clades - U152, L21, DF27, etc., - are higher among Walloons, and U106 is higher among Flemings. I think I would have been surprised had it been otherwise. That this reflects the old Celtic/Germanic divide should be self evident.


Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: palamede on September 10, 2012, 03:35:33 AM
I understand the scope of the study is Brabant, not Belgium. Here is an extract.

"Now, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient. "

The first goal was Brabant (in Belgium plus North-Brabant in Netherland) . Quickly, they extended the studies to all Belgium and they wished to extend to French Flanders.
They reached theirs goals in North-Brabant and all Flemish parts of Belgium with success. But for cultural reasons and hostility of  mass media, it was more difficult to success in french-speaking regions : They got about 55 testers in Wallony, not enough for scientific conclusions, this seems showing a bigger proportion of R-U152. In French Flanders, they renounced to study with the lack of interest.
For results  
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26032-Breakdown-of-Y-DNA-distribution-in-Belgium-by-province

Here are the temporary results for Wallonia (only 10% completed). Due to the small number of samples for each province, I have compiled an average for all Wallonia.

Wallonia (n=55)
I1 : 10.9% I2 : 1.8% I2b : 7.2%
R1b : 60%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 18.2%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 18.2%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 16.4%
R1a : 3.6%
G2a : 3.6% E1b1b : 7.2% T : 3.6% J1 : 0% J2 : 1.8% L: 0% Q : 0%

From my father, I am a Walloon G2a3b1a2-P497+Z725+, I am not part of this study because my father was war refugee in France in August 1914, remained and married in France.
Compared to the global result of Belgium+North Brabant (The55 walloons are also in the total 981)
Totaal   981  100,00%
R1b M343  600 = 61,16% R1a SRY10831.2 : 38 = 3,87%
I1 M253 : 119 = 12,13% I2 P215  14 = 1,43% I2a P37.2 : 14 = 1,43% I2b M223 : 43 = 4,38%
E1b1b M215 : 50 = 5,10%
G2a P15 : 37 = 3,77%
J1 M267 : 11 = 1,12% J2a M410 : 34 = 3,47% J2b M12 : 6 = 0,61%
T M70  6 = 0,61% L M11 : 4 = 0,41%
Q M242 : 4 = 0,41%
A M91 : 1 = 0,10%

R-U106 is very predominant in Netherlander province of North-Brabant compared to every Belgian provinces.
R1b : 65.9%
- R1b-U106/S21 : 34%
- R1b-P312/S116 (including L21) : 19.5%
- R1b-U152/S28 : 5.8%
- R1b-SRY2627 : 2.9%

More recent study of the 981 people shows an increase of R-L21 part (of R-P312*) in Maritime Flanders compared to other provinces.


---  Jean-Pierre wrote:
The statistics for R1b so far in the Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-project are:
Out of 981 participants:
R1b-M343+ : 61,2%
R-U106 : 26,1%
R-P312* (x U152, M529/L21, SRY2627): 13,4%
R-U152 : 10,4%
R-M529/L21 : 7,9%
SRY2627 : 0,6%
--- End of quote



Title: Re: DNA IN FORENSICS 2012: “EXPLORING THE PHYLOGENIES”
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 29, 2013, 05:20:48 AM
I see that the long awaited publication about the underlayng SNP's in R1b in Belgium is available on internet, but behind a paywall.

http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00101-4/abstract

Has anybody of you access to the full paper and data?
Would you be so kind to send it to me?
Thanks.

jp.swinnen@hotmail.com