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Title: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: eochaidh on September 04, 2012, 10:34:48 AM
This is from Eurogenes:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 04, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
This is from Eurogenes:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/

Thanks, Miles. I see different dates for R1b in Europe including 8000-3000 BC as well as 8000-5000 BC.  This fits right in with FTDNA's Mike Hammer's 6000-2000 BC for R-M269.

I may have missed it, but when they were talking about R1b, do they mean literally R1b (M343)?   I suppose they must mean what they wrote.


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: eochaidh on September 04, 2012, 10:54:46 AM
It must be R1b-M269 that he's taking about, because he says that it was all over Western and Central Europe by the late Neolithic.

I'm not great at ages for certain SNPs....


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: razyn on September 04, 2012, 11:02:46 AM
I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: NealtheRed on September 04, 2012, 11:15:01 AM
I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: rms2 on September 04, 2012, 11:39:15 AM
I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: eochaidh on September 04, 2012, 12:03:09 PM
I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

Is there something wrong with David? Why is this getting personal?


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: NealtheRed on September 04, 2012, 12:23:45 PM
I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

No kidding! I really should use another pseudonym for our chap.


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: NealtheRed on September 04, 2012, 12:25:32 PM
I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

Is there something wrong with David? Why is this getting personal?

Miles, you should read between the lines when you consume any of the aforementioned blogger's material.


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: Mkk on September 04, 2012, 12:50:16 PM
I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

Is there something wrong with David? Why is this getting personal?

Miles, you should read between the lines when you consume any of the aforementioned blogger's material.
Read between the lines? I've read his blog and just like Dienekes and other authors he comments on new genetic/anthropological papers in the literature with comments and speculation on their results.

You said, he doesn't want to see R1b as IE. Are you saying he's a pan-Slav propagandist?


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: NealtheRed on September 04, 2012, 12:59:08 PM
Read between the lines? I've read his blog and just like Dienekes and other authors he comments on new genetic/anthropological papers in the literature with comments and speculation on their results.

You said, he doesn't want to see R1b as IE. Are you saying he's a pan-Slav propagandist?
The person in question is more of a pan-R1a propagandist. He is much less explicit of these feelings in his blogs, but is considerably more brash on the forums.

If you know that to which I am referring, then the R1b spreading like a rash comment will make more sense to you.


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: Mkk on September 04, 2012, 02:02:36 PM
Read between the lines? I've read his blog and just like Dienekes and other authors he comments on new genetic/anthropological papers in the literature with comments and speculation on their results.

You said, he doesn't want to see R1b as IE. Are you saying he's a pan-Slav propagandist?
The person in question is more of a pan-R1a propagandist. He is much less explicit of these feelings in his blogs, but is considerably more brash on the forums.

If you know that to which I am referring, then the R1b spreading like a rash comment will make more sense to you.
Ah, I understand what you're saying now.



Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: eochaidh on September 04, 2012, 02:05:13 PM
I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

Is there something wrong with David? Why is this getting personal?

Miles, you should read between the lines when you consume any of the aforementioned blogger's material.

No need to read between the lines here, it seems that David's being Polish has something to do with it.


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: Heber on September 04, 2012, 02:20:18 PM
Miles,

This is a very interesting conference with a deluge of new papers on the Y Chrosomone.
Detailed studies from Flemish DNA, The Tyrol, The Alpine Region, Slovakia, Insights on Otzi and his haplogroup, Slavs and Corded Ware, Alpine Tribes, Piedmont,
Next Gen Sequencing of the Y, the massive expansion of the Y Tree, the need to reform the naming convention, Rapidly Mutating Y STRs RM-STRs, Next Gen STRs NG-STRs and of course the Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in Europe. Thanks for posting it. Here is a summary of extracts.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=615


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: rms2 on September 04, 2012, 03:08:06 PM
I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

Is there something wrong with David? Why is this getting personal?

Miles, you should read between the lines when you consume any of the aforementioned blogger's material.

No need to read between the lines here, it seems that David's being Polish has something to do with it.

That has nothing to do with it. My wife is half Polish. It has everything to do with rude and obnoxious behavior and offensive posts.

I like pierogis (or piroshki, if you prefer them Russian style).


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: Bren123 on September 06, 2012, 04:32:32 PM
It must be R1b-M269 that he's taking about, because he says that it was all over Western and Central Europe by the late Neolithic.

I'm not great at ages for certain SNPs....

Hasn't anyone pointed out to him aDNA [from Neolithic) finds in Western Europe have been Haplotypes G and E?


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: princenuadha on September 07, 2012, 01:20:15 AM
It must be R1b-M269 that he's taking about, because he says that it was all over Western and Central Europe by the late Neolithic.

I'm not great at ages for certain SNPs....

Hasn't anyone pointed out to him aDNA [from Neolithic) finds in Western Europe have been Haplotypes G and E?

He thinks there was a late neolithic migration (different from the first) into Western Europe which brought most of the r1b that survives in western europe. His evidence and reasoning is very lackluster, but he is nonetheless "convinced".

I tried to explain that an r1b migration from Eastern Europe does a far better job at explaining the changes that happened in the bronze age, here http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/36677-R1b-not-proto-Indo-European?p=980536#post980536

But apparently he did not understand my argument...


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: Bren123 on September 07, 2012, 02:18:08 AM
It must be R1b-M269 that he's taking about, because he says that it was all over Western and Central Europe by the late Neolithic.

I'm not great at ages for certain SNPs....

Hasn't anyone pointed out to him aDNA [from Neolithic) finds in Western Europe have been Haplotypes G and E?

He thinks there was a late neolithic migration (different from the first) into Western Europe which brought most of the r1b that survives in western europe. His evidence and reasoning is very lackluster, but he is nonetheless "convinced".

I tried to explain that an r1b migration from Eastern Europe does a far better job at explaining the changes that happened in the bronze age, here http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/36677-R1b-not-proto-Indo-European?p=980536#post980536

But apparently he did not understand my argument...

Thiis part I disagree with;
Quote
It is a common misunderstanding that language replacement should show up as a huge cultural or population change – that is not the case at all. For example the Gaelicization of Scotland is not perceivable in the archaeological records, according to Mallory.


Take the Norman invasion of Wales  that only affected the top 10% of the population of Wales 90% were monoglot Welsh speakers up until the beginning of the Industrial revolution when a huge influx of people into the South Wales valleys occured.It was only then that the use of Welsh declined quite rapidly.


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: princenuadha on September 07, 2012, 03:32:05 AM
The replacements I talked about were deduced from adna, not language.


Title: Re: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe
Post by: Mark Jost on November 22, 2012, 08:31:46 AM
"Recent archaeological work in the Levent Valley in the eastern province of Malatya’s Akçadağ district has revealed traces of life from the Neolithic Age."


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/eastern-valley-shows-off-traces-of-neolithic-age.aspx?pageID=238&nid=34895

MJost