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Title: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on August 30, 2012, 03:18:20 AM
What is the current wisdom regarding the ancient Welsh tribes? There seems to be a lot written about Scotland's Picts, but nowhere near as much concerning Wales' ancient peoples.
From what I have read, it seems some are convinced of an ancient link between Iberia & Wales. I gather any mention of Iberia tends to lead to disputes, but would like to know the latest regarding that theory.
I have to say that many Welsh people have the look of Iberians. Chris Coleman, the current Welsh football manager, certainly has the look of someone more accustomed to Mediterranean climes! I've seen so many Welsh folk who are extremely dark-haired, with complexions not typical of these isles (Britain).
Is there anyone who is considered an authority on this issue? Any books I should be reading? Does DNA evidence corroborate the Iberian link?
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Jean M on August 30, 2012, 04:39:20 AM
The Welsh tribes are included in my Celtic tribes of the British Isles (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml). Just click on Wales and the West.

The only person to suppose a link with Iberia was the Roman Tacitus, who just guessed that " the swarthy faces of the Silures, their generally curly hair and the fact that Hispania lies opposite, all lead one to believe that Iberians crossed in  ancient times and occupied the land." (Agricola, 11.)

His notion of geography was clearly rather vague! These guesses on the basis of looks could lead us far astray. I know of no support for such a link from genetics.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Mkk on August 30, 2012, 04:44:56 AM
Aside from the R1b connection (which is probably not significant, atleast in a Out-of-Iberia sort of way), the latest genetic papers ("Genes and geography in Europe"... etc) show British (including welsh samples I suppose) and Irish clustering with other Northern Europeans like Germans and Dutch. The Spanish nearly always cluster quite far away.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 30, 2012, 04:49:46 AM
What is the current wisdom regarding the ancient Welsh tribes? There seems to be a lot written about Scotland's Picts, but nowhere near as much concerning Wales' ancient peoples.
From what I have read, it seems some are convinced of an ancient link between Iberia & Wales. I gather any mention of Iberia tends to lead to disputes, but would like to know the latest regarding that theory.
I have to say that many Welsh people have the look of Iberians. Chris Coleman, the current Welsh football manager, certainly has the look of someone more accustomed to Mediterranean climes! I've seen so many Welsh folk who are extremely dark-haired, with complexions not typical of these isles (Britain).
Is there anyone who is considered an authority on this issue? Any books I should be reading? Does DNA evidence corroborate the Iberian link?
Bob


The traditional view of many British (including Welsh) historians and writers in the 20th century (there are so many old books that attest to this) was that the Welsh had an "Iberian" origin. In the traditional view, these Iberians were pre-Celtic -  the Celts said to be later invaders.

I believe this view arose for two reasons:
1. The views of Tacitus that the Silures were dark complexioned and resembled the Spanish.
2. The fact that physical anthropologists have observed that the Welsh were darker than the English in terms of hair and eye colour.

Carleton Coon, the American anthropologist summarised this topic quite well in his summary of Great Britain. It should be noted that his work was based on earlier observations of British anthropologists Beddoe and Fleure in the late 19th and early 20th century.

I would advise caution wrt Chris Coleman, who has an English surname. Truly, swarthy, Welsh people are not that common but certainly darker looks are more prevelant than elsewhere in Britain.
 






Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 30, 2012, 05:26:28 AM
Aside from the R1b connection (which is probably not significant, atleast in a Out-of-Iberia sort of way), the latest genetic papers ("Genes and geography in Europe"... etc) show British (including welsh samples I suppose) and Irish clustering with other Northern Europeans like Germans and Dutch. The Spanish nearly always cluster quite far away.

What about mtDNA links?

Also, as I recall the POBI project, which is autosomalDNA, said that Wales clustered closely with Ireland and Northwest France, certainly not Germans and Dutch.





Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on August 30, 2012, 05:34:52 AM
Thanks for the link, Jean. Also, Avalon & MKK's input - greatly appreciated.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on August 30, 2012, 05:40:58 AM
Bob,

I would recommend reading Cunliffe, Koch, Moffat and Wilson who seem to have a good handle on this from a Culture, Language, Archealogy and Genetics point of view.

There are two view points. One is the Celtic connection with Iberia and I believe that is supported by all of the ablove.

Celtic from the West - Cunliffe and Koch
Europe Between the Oceans - Cunliffe
The Scots a Genetic Journey - Moffat and Wilson
The Sea Kingdoms - Moffat

Another is the Ancient Welsh and Britons.
One of the main LGM refugium was in Iberia, so I guess there is also an Iberian connection for the pre Celtic people. This is addressed in some of the above. I will check specific references for you when I get home this evening.

I have provided links to these books here:

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/books-worth-reading/


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on August 30, 2012, 06:25:49 AM
Thanks Heber,
An interesting library! I'll try & read a few.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Mkk on August 30, 2012, 06:48:36 AM
Aside from the R1b connection (which is probably not significant, atleast in a Out-of-Iberia sort of way), the latest genetic papers ("Genes and geography in Europe"... etc) show British (including welsh samples I suppose) and Irish clustering with other Northern Europeans like Germans and Dutch. The Spanish nearly always cluster quite far away.

What about mtDNA links?

Also, as I recall the POBI project, which is autosomalDNA, said that Wales clustered closely with Ireland and Northwest France, certainly not Germans and Dutch.




MtDNA is quite evenly distributed across Europe, although Sykes did report a East-west north south cline which is likely Anglo-Saxon in origin.

As for my comment on Northern Europeans, yes Northern French would be included in that. The team have included thousands of samples from the continent too, and presumably some from Spain, so we will see when their full results are published.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on August 30, 2012, 07:17:20 AM
Thanks Heber,
An interesting library! I'll try & read a few.
Bob

Bob,

Celtic from the West is quiet expensive so I would hold off for Cunliffe's next conference "Celtic in the West" on Oct 2nd next in Oxford. He should be able to draw stronger conclusions with the new POBI data and all the new SNPs discovered from 1000 Genome project and possibly Geno 2.0.
Below is a review of the book. The Scots, A Genetic Journey is a good read and available on Kindle and also deals with The Old Welsh.

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2011/2011-09-57.html


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Jean M on August 30, 2012, 07:34:24 AM

.. Cunliffe's next conference "Celtic in the West" on Oct 2nd next in Oxford.

That is not in Oxford. Celts in the West is a lecture or other event at the University of Bradford. (http://www.prehistoricsociety.org/events/event/celts_in_the_west/) Can't find any details.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on August 30, 2012, 08:22:05 AM
I would also caution against using the Silures as a proxy for all of Wales. They were a tribe of southeastern Wales. There were other tribes in various places in Wales, like the Ordovices, the Deceangli, and the Cornovii, to name but three. Only the Silures were described by Tacitus as being swarthy. Most of the Welsh are very fair and typically British looking. Red hair is relatively common in Wales.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 30, 2012, 08:27:58 AM
Aside from the R1b connection (which is probably not significant, atleast in a Out-of-Iberia sort of way), the latest genetic papers ("Genes and geography in Europe"... etc) show British (including welsh samples I suppose) and Irish clustering with other Northern Europeans like Germans and Dutch. The Spanish nearly always cluster quite far away.

What about mtDNA links?

Also, as I recall the POBI project, which is autosomalDNA, said that Wales clustered closely with Ireland and Northwest France, certainly not Germans and Dutch.




MtDNA is quite evenly distributed across Europe, although Sykes did report a East-west north south cline which is likely Anglo-Saxon in origin.

As for my comment on Northern Europeans, yes Northern French would be included in that. The team have included thousands of samples from the continent too, and presumably some from Spain, so we will see when their full results are published.

The thing is though, Northwest France is to me, Brittany and geographically Brittany is closer to the Basque country (Iberia) than it is to the Netherlands or Northern Germany.

We need to be precise here. Northern France is a large area. From Brittany in the West to the Rhine in the east we're talking 500 miles.

Even Cornwall is geographically closer to Iberia than it is to Northern Germany.

This is a qoute from the comments section at the Royal Society.

Quote
One way to think about Cornwall, Devon and the rest of England is that Cornwall is more representative of the peopling of the British Isles from the Atlantic facing region of Europe, whilst the extensive red English cluster has a large signature from the Belgium/Denmark/North Germany area.  Devon can then be thought of as a zone of mixture between the two.  The tight boundaries are very interesting and may well be a result of political spheres of influence


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 30, 2012, 08:48:41 AM
I would also caution against using the Silures as a proxy for all of Wales. They were a tribe of southeastern Wales. There were other tribes in various places in Wales, like the Ordovices, the Deceangli, and the Cornovii, to name but three. Only the Silures were described by Tacitus as being swarthy. Most of the Welsh are very fair and typically British looking. Red hair is relatively common in Wales.

Completely wrong. Go and read Coon's General Summary of Great Britain again.

Population surveys of actual Welsh people (mainly Beddoe and Fleure) that Coon used as basis for his summary of Britain, showed that darker features were more prevalent in North, Mid and West Wales, not the South East inhabited by the Silures.

High incidences of red hair in Wales, found by Beddoe, were restricted to a few localities in South Wales near to the English border, an area that historically has received Norman/Flemish settlers in the Middle Ages and a large influx of English migrants during Industrial times.

Overall red hair was 6.2% in Welsh Wales when the survey was conducted in the 1910s and 1930s.





Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: inver2b1 on August 30, 2012, 09:11:35 AM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 30, 2012, 10:25:06 AM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?

I believe it was Abergele, a seaside resort town on the North Wales coast and hardly a good representation for the Welsh people.

These towns along the coast such as Rhyl, Llandudno and Abergele are popular retirement destinations for people from Liverpool and Birmingham and have been for many years. Also, there are very few native Welsh speakers in Abergele, which attests to its anglicisation in the 20th century.

I honestly wonder if the people that carry out dna studies in Britain know anything about the local history of the places they sample. The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.

I would like to know if the Haplogroup E people in Abergele had Welsh surnames?



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 30, 2012, 11:08:10 AM
The Welsh tribes are included in my Celtic tribes of the British Isles (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml). Just click on Wales and the West.

The only person to suppose a link with Iberia was the Roman Tacitus, who just guessed that " the swarthy faces of the Silures, their generally curly hair and the fact that Hispania lies opposite, all lead one to believe that Iberians crossed in  ancient times and occupied the land." (Agricola, 11.)

His notion of geography was clearly rather vague! These guesses on the basis of looks could lead us far astray. I know of no support for such a link from genetics.

If I am recalling correctly, the Romans had a really messed up idea of the coast of western and northern France and thought it basically ran in a straight diagonal line from the Pyrennees to the Rhine instead of the north-south orientated west coast followed by a near right angle turn east along the north coast.  In doing so they wrongly rejected and mocked earlier more informed geographies (cant remember if it was Pytheas, Avienus or both) that had a much more accurate idea of the west and north coast.  I understand that this distortion is how they got the idea  that western Britain and Ireland lay near Spain when in fact it was far closer to northern Gaul just like the rest of Britain.  I think Cunliffe wrote a little paperback on Pytheas that discusses all of this.   


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 30, 2012, 11:17:56 AM
Although I have gradually been won over to the Celts from the west ideas in some form I still think there is far too much emphasis put on the Iberian end of it which was just one extremty of a zone that stretched from Portugal to southern Holland.  I still sense the influence of Book of Invasions and the early DNA study idea of R1b as comming out of an Iberian ice age refugia in that.  The centre of that network was probably somewhere like NW France and contacts were probably relay style with the people at stage in the network mainly only knowing the nearest link in the chain to them.  The emphasis on Iberia at one extreme end of the network seems unwarranted in my opinion.  Also, people are wrong to think this network commenced in the beaker period and remained intact up to the end of the Atlantic Bronze Age 2000 years later.  They are completely different phases with a break of c. 1000 years or more in between. 


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on August 30, 2012, 03:09:35 PM
Am I being extremely naive in taking  into account FTDNA's 'Ancestral Origins' matches? I appreciate that at 12/12 & 11/12 these may be fairly meaningless, but I wonder if they represent ancient links?
My surname is via the Anglo-Scottish border & tends to match the British Isles, Ireland, Portugal & France at percentages  between 1% to 1.6%, with other countries generally at far far smaller percentages than those. At 12/12 we get Wales at 8.6%, Scotland at 7%, England, both Irelands, France , Belgium & Spain at approx 6.8%.
Germany, Holland & Switzerland tend to be under 5%.
 My amateurish guess would be that the higher Welsh score is significant, possibly suggesting a Brythonic Celt origin?
Is the above at all logical? At the 37, 67 & 111 levels we are basically British Isles & ireland.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on August 30, 2012, 03:18:44 PM
I would also caution against using the Silures as a proxy for all of Wales. They were a tribe of southeastern Wales. There were other tribes in various places in Wales, like the Ordovices, the Deceangli, and the Cornovii, to name but three. Only the Silures were described by Tacitus as being swarthy. Most of the Welsh are very fair and typically British looking. Red hair is relatively common in Wales.

Completely wrong . . .





No, you are completely wrong. The Silures were in fact a tribe of southeastern Wales, and, as I reported on another thread, an actual genetic study found that Wales has one of the highest frequencies of the genetic signature for red hair of any place in the British Isles.

Actually read what I wrote: "Red hair is relatively common in Wales."

Also notice that I was writing about the ancient Silures and not about Coon and Beddoe, etc. What I wrote was absolutely correct.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: A.D. on August 30, 2012, 03:29:49 PM
both Irelands???? Wheres the other one?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on August 30, 2012, 03:40:51 PM
Hmmm. I was desperately trying to avoid getting side-tracked into this. As I'm sure you guessed, I was meaning North & South. FTDNA list both, & they list them at 6.4% & 6.6%, so for a quiet life, let's say 6.5% for the entire population of the first land mass you might reach sailing west from Liverpool or Fishguard.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 30, 2012, 10:07:07 PM
Sorry for all the controversy, Bob.

My two cents is that 12 and 25 marker geographic reporting information is probably only accurately helpful to determine if you are from Europe or East Asia or Africa or native American. Deeper than that, that level of matching may have some truth in in the majority of the time but there are too many exceptions that it worthless.

I'm all for only looking at 67 markers and deep SNP testing.

Am I being extremely naive in taking  into account FTDNA's 'Ancestral Origins' matches? I appreciate that at 12/12 & 11/12 these may be fairly meaningless, but I wonder if they represent ancient links? 


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on August 31, 2012, 02:10:33 AM
No problem, Mike.
 I agree with your  assertions & tend to think of 37 markers as we did the 12 marker level several years ago. I try to get our surname group to upgrade to 67, plus if their funds permit, 111 markers. Nevertheless, I still can't resist seeing if anything makes sense from the limited data we have access to.
On a different tack: I recall a TV programme in recent years where they pinpointed the origin of Stonehenge's structure to Wales. They then experimented with various implements to show how the slabs could have been transported & erected.
I'm really looking forward to PoBI's results.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: dodelo on August 31, 2012, 03:07:23 AM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 31, 2012, 03:40:14 AM
I would also caution against using the Silures as a proxy for all of Wales. They were a tribe of southeastern Wales. There were other tribes in various places in Wales, like the Ordovices, the Deceangli, and the Cornovii, to name but three. Only the Silures were described by Tacitus as being swarthy. Most of the Welsh are very fair and typically British looking. Red hair is relatively common in Wales.

Completely wrong . . .





No, you are completely wrong. The Silures were in fact a tribe of southeastern Wales, and, as I reported on another thread, an actual genetic study found that Wales has one of the highest frequencies of the genetic signature for red hair of any place in the British Isles.

Actually read what I wrote: "Red hair is relatively common in Wales."

Also notice that I was writing about the ancient Silures and not about Coon and Beddoe, etc. What I wrote was absolutely correct.

Sorry, my previous post should have been clearer. I wasn't disagreeing with what you said about the Silures, rather your comment "Most of the Welsh are very fair."

This simply is not true.

Many people, including physical anthropologists, have observed that the Welsh are generally darker, in hair and eye, than people elsewhere in Britain.

John Beddoe in the 1860/70s observed that in Central Wales "there was a prevelance of dark eyes beyond which I have met with in any part of Britain," and that the people of Snowdonia were a dark race.

Beddoe's general conclusion was that the people of England were fairer than the Celtic West and he attributed this to Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Vikings, in the east of Britain.

Fleure, James and Davies conducted a more thorough survey of Welsh Wales in the 1910s and 1930s and reached simliar conclusions - that the Welsh were a predominantly dark haired people, often with brown eyes. A lot of this data was used by Carleton Coon in his book Races of Europe 1939.

As for red hair, the allele gene for red hair does not necessarily = actual red hair.
Fleure 1958 who observed real people with red hair found an avg of 6.2% for the whole of Welsh Wales and with Beddoe it was about 5%, which is not high.

For some reason red hair is more common in South East Wales, where there a few localities with red hair at 7-10% but these figures are not seen elsewhere in Wales. In North Wales, Fleure found red hair at about 3-5%.

I do not wish to belabour these points, I just get irritated with misconceptions about the Welsh.










Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 31, 2012, 03:51:15 AM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: dodelo on August 31, 2012, 05:30:25 AM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

There is a clearly a problem with Abergele but that is why I ignored it .  The  Roman soldiers association with E has been mentioned in the past e.g. Stephen Bird ,  I thought you may have had some additional info .


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on August 31, 2012, 07:07:09 AM
Not particularly relevant, but the rulers of the Kingdom of Strathclyde were 'ejected' from southern Scotland & reputedly relocated in N. Wales.
On another irrelevant matter, any views on the location of the Battle of Degsastan welcomed! I have a feeling it may be Dawston, Liddesdale, Roxburghshire, or possibly Nine Stane Rig, nearby. I often wonder if Nine Stane Rig was once ten stones in  number. 'Deg' in Degsastan = 10 in Welsh (or so I believe!)
This is a topic that can get folk lathered up!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on August 31, 2012, 07:33:59 AM
The "E" in Abergele, Wales, is, as I recall, E-V13. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I also recall reading that there was a Roman settlement and trading outpost there or in that vicinity. Since E-V13 is most common in the Balkans, it seems to me the Roman explanation is a good one, but perhaps not the only one. Maybe the E-V13 in Wales comes from Neolithic settlers.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Jdean on August 31, 2012, 07:34:23 AM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

There is a clearly a problem with Abergele but that is why I ignored it .  The  Roman soldiers association with E has been mentioned in the past e.g. Stephen Bird ,  I thought you may have had some additional info .

The Studies found almost 39% of the people from Abergele were E3b, I don't think Liverpool would have any where near this much E3b even with it's high Irish population.

The studies required the paternal grandfather was born in the area. In the 1901 census the majority of residence in Abergele were in fact born there and had Welsh names, after that most came from the country followed by other Welsh counties.

I'm sure there is more than one explanation of how this area ended up with such an apparently high level of this haplogroup but I don't think English incursion is one of them.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: inver2b1 on August 31, 2012, 07:48:33 AM
Another idea I read about was a Mediterranan mining link.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: OConnor on August 31, 2012, 07:56:49 AM
In regards to dark Welsh compared to dark Iberian:

Could admixture from the Muslim conquest of Spain have contributed to some of Iberia's dark hair and skin over the 800 year period? (Obviously not all from this group) I am guessing the Muslims were mostly dark hair/skin.

"After a short foray in July of 710 AD, Muslim forces from North Africa invaded the Christian Iberian Peninsula (modern day Spain and Portugal) in the spring of 711, and within two years, with the exception of the extreme northwestern portion of the peninsula, had successfully overpowered and conquered the Visigothic Christian realms of Iberia.[1] Not only did it take the Frankish forces under Charles Martel to stop the Muslim horde at the battle of Poitiers in 732 from further intrusions into Western Europe, it would take nearly eight centuries for the Iberian Christians to re-take the peninsula from the Muslims."
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/medieval/articles/muslimhorde.aspx


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on August 31, 2012, 08:18:26 AM
I would also caution against using the Silures as a proxy for all of Wales. They were a tribe of southeastern Wales. There were other tribes in various places in Wales, like the Ordovices, the Deceangli, and the Cornovii, to name but three. Only the Silures were described by Tacitus as being swarthy. Most of the Welsh are very fair and typically British looking. Red hair is relatively common in Wales.

Completely wrong . . .





No, you are completely wrong. The Silures were in fact a tribe of southeastern Wales, and, as I reported on another thread, an actual genetic study found that Wales has one of the highest frequencies of the genetic signature for red hair of any place in the British Isles.

Actually read what I wrote: "Red hair is relatively common in Wales."

Also notice that I was writing about the ancient Silures and not about Coon and Beddoe, etc. What I wrote was absolutely correct.

. . .

Fleure, James and Davies conducted a more thorough survey of Welsh Wales in the 1910s and 1930s and reached simliar conclusions - that the Welsh were a predominantly dark haired people, often with brown eyes. A lot of this data was used by Carleton Coon in his book Races of Europe 1939 . . .

I do not wish to belabour these points, I just get irritated with misconceptions about the Welsh.

I do, too, and honestly, some of your posts are irritating.

"Predominantly dark haired" is not the same thing as "not fair" or "swarthy". When I wrote that the Welsh are mostly very fair and British looking, that was not "simply not true". It is true. The Welsh are not a dark-skinned, swarthy people.

I dare say that most of the people of the British Isles, including the English, are dark haired. My observation of northern Europeans in general, including the Germans and Dutch, is that they are dark haired. From what I have seen, there is even a great deal of dark hair among the Scandinavians, who are arguably the blondest people on earth.

I recall from some of your earlier posts that you cited Beddoe to the effect that Wales had a higher percentage of brown eyed people than did England. Still, in Wales, brown was not the predominant eye color. As I recall it accounted for roughly one third of the population. Having a slightly higher frequency of brown eyes than England does not make Wales the swarthy anomaly of British isles nations.

I am puzzled by a certain trend I think I detect in your posts about the British Isles and its people. I see you trying to characterize the Welsh as exceptionally dark, and your tone in that regard strikes me as negative and condescending. Your posts seem to take the same sort of tack toward the rest of the Celtic Fringe countries, but it is most pronounced with regard to the Welsh. On the other hand, you like to emphasize the blond and rufous qualities of the English, which you attribute to Scandinavians and Anglo-Saxons.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I detect a kind of anti-Celtic animus in the general tone of your posts that disturbs me. If I am wrong, instead of getting angry at me for thinking that, perhaps you should try not to create that impression.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: eochaidh on August 31, 2012, 09:09:40 AM
The amazement over dark haired, dark eyed people in the Isles keeps cropping up, as I'm sure it has for centuries. As a guy who comes from an Irish family filled with dark haired, dark eyed people I find it amusing. I have black haired, black eyed Irish cousins in Wexford and black haired, black eyed cousins in Derry. My father was black haired, black eyed and my sister and I are dark haired, dark eyed (mine are a bit hazel). It happens, and I don't think there is any deep genetic riddle to be solved.

In High School, I sat in rooms with dark haired, dark eyed Irish and fair haired, blue eyed Italians. Growing up I was often told that my "dark" coloring MUST have come from my French-Canadian 25% side, when, in fact, I know of no French-Canadian relation with anything but blue eyes.

We are not freaks!  :) Nor, are we descendants of some unexplainable strain of Iberians or Italians. We are the luck of the draw in genetics, and we appear all over Ireland, all over Britain to varrying degrees.

And, again, I'll take Andrea Corr over any fair haired, blue eyed Irish gal!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on August 31, 2012, 09:19:41 AM
The point is not that dark haired, dark eyed people don't exist among the Welsh, the Irish, the English, etc. When you talk about whole peoples, you are forced to generalize, and the general run of people in the British Isles, including Wales and Ireland, are not what one would characterize as "swarthy".

I personally would not call someone "swarthy" merely because he has dark hair and brown eyes. My dad had dark hair (it's white now) and has brown eyes, but he is fair skinned and sunburns very easily.

I have (or had) dark hair and blue eyes. I have a ruddy complexion (red) and sunburn very easily.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on August 31, 2012, 09:20:27 AM

And, again, I'll take Andrea Corr over any fair haired, blue eyed Irish gal!

Knowing my luck, if I had the chance of an 'evening's passion' with one of the Corrs, I'd get the brother!!!
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: inver2b1 on August 31, 2012, 09:30:50 AM
Why is that when people discuss dark featues that Spanish ancestry is nearly always brought up as if they are the only population with dark features?
Also as Romans were mentioned earlier; isn't it a case that the Roman army wasn't made up of people from the heart of the empire but form comquered lands?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on August 31, 2012, 09:45:35 AM
I think there are many Scottish & Irish families who have the old 'Shipwrecked Spaniard' or 'Gypsy' tale,  used to account for dark hair. My own surname had a legend that the (generally) fair-haired Armstrongs had a chap who wed a 'Gypsy fey'. That branch from then on were known as 'black' - eg 'Black Jok' etc.
I believe the gypsy tale may have had some truth as there was a gypsy king in southern Scotland named Johnnie Faa (Fey?). He was on the go around James IV's time.
All that said, I'd guess descendants of dark-haired/light-haired unions would probably have their strong colouring dissipated after a few generations of marrying fairer-haired folk!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 31, 2012, 09:50:34 AM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

There is a clearly a problem with Abergele but that is why I ignored it .  The  Roman soldiers association with E has been mentioned in the past e.g. Stephen Bird ,  I thought you may have had some additional info .

I think people jumped on the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele for the simple reason that there was a Roman Fortlet in the area, but nobody considered, or perhaps even knew about the modern. 20th century history of the north Wales coastal towns such as Abergele, Rhyl, Prestatyn, etc.

There were Roman Forts in North Wales but I don't think there is much evidence of actual Roman settlement in North Wales.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: A_Wode on August 31, 2012, 10:05:45 AM

Also, as I recall the POBI project, which is autosomalDNA, said that Wales clustered closely with Ireland and Northwest France, certainly not Germans and Dutch.

I'm not sure how reliable that is, but from open source projects in the community the 'community' Dutch sample is very close to Britain and Ireland. I have considered the fact there is Huguenot ancestry in the Dutch sample which is why they tend to pull to the south. Germany is a touchy one since it is a vast territory and obviously the west and south-west Germans are very similar to the western European, and south western countries, where as further east in Germany score higher in east European scores.






Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 31, 2012, 10:07:41 AM
I would also caution against using the Silures as a proxy for all of Wales. They were a tribe of southeastern Wales. There were other tribes in various places in Wales, like the Ordovices, the Deceangli, and the Cornovii, to name but three. Only the Silures were described by Tacitus as being swarthy. Most of the Welsh are very fair and typically British looking. Red hair is relatively common in Wales.




No, you are completely wrong. The Silures were in fact a tribe of southeastern Wales, and, as I reported on another thread, an actual genetic study found that Wales has one of the highest frequencies of the genetic signature for red hair of any place in the British Isles.

Actually read what I wrote: "Red hair is relatively common in Wales."

Also notice that I was writing about the ancient Silures and not about Coon and Beddoe, etc. What I wrote was absolutely correct.

. . .

Fleure, James and Davies conducted a more thorough survey of Welsh Wales in the 1910s and 1930s and reached simliar conclusions - that the Welsh were a predominantly dark haired people, often with brown eyes. A lot of this data was used by Carleton Coon in his book Races of Europe 1939 . . .

I do not wish to belabour these points, I just get irritated with misconceptions about the Welsh.

I do, too, and honestly, some of your posts are irritating.

"Predominantly dark haired" is not the same thing as "not fair" or "swarthy". When I wrote that the Welsh are mostly very fair and British looking, that was not "simply not true". It is true. The Welsh are not a dark-skinned, swarthy people.

I dare say that most of the people of the British Isles, including the English, are dark haired. My observation of northern Europeans in general, including the Germans and Dutch, is that they are dark haired. From what I have seen, there is even a great deal of dark hair among the Scandinavians, who are arguably the blondest people on earth.

I recall from some of your earlier posts that you cited Beddoe to the effect that Wales had a higher percentage of brown eyed people than did England. Still, in Wales, brown was not the predominant eye color. As I recall it accounted for roughly one third of the population. Having a slightly higher frequency of brown eyes than England does not make Wales the swarthy anomaly of British isles nations.

I am puzzled by a certain trend I think I detect in your posts about the British Isles and its people. I see you trying to characterize the Welsh as exceptionally dark, and your tone in that regard strikes me as negative and condescending. Your posts seem to take the same sort of tack toward the rest of the Celtic Fringe countries, but it is most pronounced with regard to the Welsh. On the other hand, you like to emphasize the blond and rufous qualities of the English, which you attribute to Scandinavians and Anglo-Saxons.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I detect a kind of anti-Celtic animus in the general tone of your posts that disturbs me. If I am wrong, instead of getting angry at me for thinking that, perhaps you should try not to create that impression.



I think though the isles are dominated by people who as adults have a combination of some shade of mid to dark brown hair, light to middling eyes and normally fair pink toned skin.  That is dominant everywhere regardless of whether it be the Celtic fringe or England. A lot of modern British politicians are good examples (well when they were young) be it Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, David Cameron.  This (and a red haired variant) seems to be the basal pan-isles type although it becomes really dominant in places like Ireland.   The isles people just do not fit ineatly nto the Nordic/Alpine/Med. type division as they used to be described.  They have their own unique combination of dominant colouring combination (well not unique but unique in terms of domination of one type).  They probably had blond hair as small kids, mousey to mid brown through childhood and mid-dark brown as adults.  That is extremely common.  Other than the minority who are black haired as adults (who tend to be dark haired as babies, most people start of as  as infants and early childhood and eventually go through shades of brown until they are mid-dark brown haired as adults.  Hardly what I would call swarthy though.

I have noticed though that when a person does have slighyly olive skin they also tend to be dark eyed and true black haired.  I know they are probably separate genes but they do seem to go together in this minority and I find it hard to believe that there is not some genetic factor that make these occur together.    Certainly olive skin and dark eyes go together like they are linked in some way.  


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 31, 2012, 10:10:29 AM
Jdean

Quote
The Studies found almost 39% of the people from Abergele were E3b, I don't think Liverpool would have any where near this much E3b even with it's high Irish population.

How can you possibly say that about Liverpool given that it has never been sampled for y-dna?

Quote
The studies required the paternal grandfather was born in the area. In the 1901 census the majority of residence in Abergele were in fact born there and had Welsh names, after that most came from the country followed by other Welsh counties.

I take your point but we don't know the age of the 18 sampled in Abergele that were Haplogroup E. If they were young men then their paternal grandfathers could have been born in the 1930s or 1940s. Also, knowing their surnames would be useful as the North Wales coast has been popular since Victorian times.

I'll take your word for it with regard to the 1901 census.

I know for a fact that Abergele was a popular seaside resort in the 1950s and 1960s, full of tourist caravan parks so you cannot completely  a modern incursion from England, particularly Liverpool.




Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: A_Wode on August 31, 2012, 10:11:49 AM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

It's all nonsense. Haplogroup E in question is E-V13 which is somewhat common in southern Europe and the Balkans. At this point it may be that  these early Levantines were darker complexioned.We know this haplogroup was present in the west of Europe in the neolithic, and was likely part of the mix who became "Welsh". There is no need for a fantastical story, especially when E-V13 was found in neolithic Northern Spain 5000 BC, and we are proposing immigration from Iberia to Wales. Moreover, E-V13 is found everywhere in Europe, including England, Ireland, Norway, Sweden...etc but at low levels.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 31, 2012, 10:22:36 AM
Why is that when people discuss dark featues that Spanish ancestry is nearly always brought up as if they are the only population with dark features?
Also as Romans were mentioned earlier; isn't it a case that the Roman army wasn't made up of people from the heart of the empire but form comquered lands?

I know its idiotic.  France has a dominance of Brown hair too and that is also true of about half of the Germans and almost all of Western Europe.  I personally think the difference is that in the isles dark hair often goes with light skin and eyes and you dont get anywhere near as many people with all-dark combinations of hair, eyes and singificantly swarthy skin as you would see on the continent.  People with those combinations of all dark colouring stand out a bit in the isles and people often think they have foreign ancestry as a result.  See the recent Irish film' The Guard' for an example of someone being accused of having Italian ancestry when he doesnt.  That is the modern equivelent of the Armada stories!  People who are furthest from the average, at one extreme of dark or lightness or the other, will always get thought of as having something exotic like Med. blood or Viking ancestors because neither is the norm.  I heard the mayor of London Boris Johnston being described as 'too  for the SS' by a comedian recently.  


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: inver2b1 on August 31, 2012, 10:26:02 AM
Who are you referring to in the The Guard, the English (I think he is) actor Mark Strong?
Of course Spanish Sailor sounds more exotic than Georgie Burgess.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 31, 2012, 10:31:16 AM
Who are you referring to in the The Guard, the English (I think he is) actor Mark Strong?
Of course Spanish Sailor sounds more exotic than Georgie Burgess.

No not him.  It was one of the Irish cops who the other cops were winding up about having some Italian blood.  Mark Strong has an interesting look.  A bit unusual.  As for the lead, Brendan Gleeson, he could only be Irish.  He is actually close to the stereotype of a rural irishman.  That is not to say his look is terribly common, just that it is one Irish type and the type that has been used as the stereotype in America. 


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: inver2b1 on August 31, 2012, 10:40:45 AM
Wasn't there some Italian migration to Dublin some time in the last couple centuries? I think I heard about it on some Dublin radio show, from what I rememberd it was form Central Italy. Nothing massive but just a bit out of the ordinary for the time.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 31, 2012, 10:50:34 AM
Wasn't there some Italian migration to Dublin some time in the last couple centuries? I think I heard about it on some Dublin radio show, from what I rememberd it was form Central Italy. Nothing massive but just a bit out of the ordinary for the time.

Oh yes.  Most of the best chip shops and ice cream shops in Ireland are run by Italian families. Same in Scotland and I imagine elsewhere in Britian too. John Lynch who was in (Cal, In the name of the father, some mothers son etc)  and his sister Susan Lynch (also an actress) have an Italian mother and the Irish comedian Frank Carson was half Italian too.  There are several more but my minds gone blank.   


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on August 31, 2012, 10:51:13 AM
The earlier mention of stereotypes reminds me of the classic 1960's-70's  BBC TV series 'The Likely Lads'. In one episode, the even-handed Bob gets bigoted Terry to give one-line summaries of the various European nationalities.  In this PC age, I don't suppose I can list them here, but his descriptions may well have reflected what many thought. I suppose the point is that if people are brought up being given stereotypes, then maybe they lock in - even if not necessarily accurate.
Re hair colouring etc: I remember standing at the back of terraces at football & rugby matches in England in the late 60s & early 70s when longer hair was the norm. Looking down from above, I remember we remarked how all you could see was a mass of hair in varying shades of brown, with the odd   being very noticeable.
Not the sort of research a university professor would be interested in!!!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 31, 2012, 10:55:38 AM
rms2

Quote
"Predominantly dark haired" is not the same thing as "not fair" or "swarthy". When I wrote that the Welsh are mostly very fair and British looking, that was not "simply not true". It is true. The Welsh are not a dark-skinned, swarthy people

I never said that the Welsh were swarthy or dark skinned. If you read an earlier post of mine I said that swarthy, dark skinned Welsh are not that common. My point is about hair colour and eye colour. You can have dark brown hair and eyes and still not be dark skinned.

Quote
My observation of northern Europeans in general, including the Germans and Dutch, is that they are dark haired.

Are you kidding me? Dutch and Germans are generally fairer than average Brits in my experience.

Quote
I recall from some of your earlier posts that you cited Beddoe to the effect that Wales had a higher percentage of brown eyed people than did England. Still, in Wales, brown was not the predominant eye color. As I recall it accounted for roughly one third of the population. Having a slightly higher frequency of brown eyes than England does not make Wales the swarthy anomaly of British isles nations.

According to Fleure 1958, whose survey was larger than Beddoe, brown eyes for Wales was about 46-48% which is not just slightly higher than England, but actually significantly higher than Eastern parts of England where brown eyes vary between about 10 and 30% according to Beddoe.

There are parts of Wales - Plynlimon Moorland, Bala Cleft, Mynydd Hiraethog and Teifiside where dark brown or black hair accounts for over 70% of the population.

I challenge you to find me a hair study anywhere in England, Holland, Germany, Denmark or Scandinavia that finds dark hair to be as high as it is in Wales?

Quote
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I detect a kind of anti-Celtic animus in the general tone of your posts that disturbs me. If I am wrong, instead of getting angry at me for thinking that, perhaps you should try not to create that impression.

That made me laugh. God knows where you got that impression from!

As it happens, I am 75% Welsh and proud. Cymru am byth!









Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: inver2b1 on August 31, 2012, 11:03:07 AM
Wasn't there some Italian migration to Dublin some time in the last couple centuries? I think I heard about it on some Dublin radio show, from what I rememberd it was form Central Italy. Nothing massive but just a bit out of the ordinary for the time.

Oh yes.  Most of the best chip shops and ice cream shops in Ireland are run by Italian families. Same in Scotland and I imagine elsewhere in Britian too. John Lynch who was in (Cal, In the name of the father, some mothers son etc)  and his sister Susan Lynch (also an actress) have an Italian mother and the Irish comedian Frank Carson was half Italian too.  There are several more but my minds gone blank.   

I wonder what kind of impact (small scale obviously) trading and fishing had in the last 500 or 600 years. I read an nteresting bookk recently called Cod, about Cod fishings role throughout history. When you consider Portuguese and Basques were fishing the North Atlantic heavily even pre Columbus' voyage there must have been some interaction with coastal communities.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 31, 2012, 11:05:31 AM
The mention of stereotypes reminds me of the classic 1960's-70's  BBC TV series 'The Likely Lads'. In one episode, the even-handed Bob gets bigoted Terry to give one-line summaries of the various European nationalities.  In this PC age, I don't suppose I can can list them here, but his descriptions may well have reflected what many thought. I suppose the point is that if people are brought up being given stereotypes, then maybe they lock in - even if not necessarily accurate.
Re hair colouring etc: I remember standing at the back of terraces at football & rugby matches in England in the late 60s & early 70s when longer hair was the norm. Looking down from above, I remember we remarked how all you could see was a mass of hair in varying shades of brown, with the odd  being very noticeable.
Not the sort of research a university professor would be interested in!!!
Bob


It is true that actual vivily  hair as an adult is very much a minority.  What charts like that of Beddoe do is hide the fact that the vast majority of his light category was probably only a shade lighter than mid brown while the vast majority of his dark was only a shade darker than mid Brown.  Its very misleading giving the impression of a  east and a dark west when in majority reality the difference is mid-dark brown in the west and mid-light brown in the east.  Hardly a massive difference.  I think there is a difference but that is about as much as it amounts to when it comes to hair.  However, eye colour does not follow and east west trend and light eyes seem to peak in both the north-east of England/east of Scotland where hair is lighter and in the usually darker haired but lighter eyed populations of Ireland and western Scotland.  It seems for some reason the prehistoric population of Ireland and northern Britain was much more light eyed than much of the southern half of England as well as Wales.  That is interesting although hard to explain (Roman empire??, more late prehistoric arrivals??).  

It seems to me that the older population was particularly light eyed but darker haired and the light eyes have remained high where this population still predominates (Ireland) or where the overlay was with other light eyed populations (north-east Britain).  


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 31, 2012, 11:22:10 AM
rms2

Quote
"Predominantly dark haired" is not the same thing as "not fair" or "swarthy". When I wrote that the Welsh are mostly very fair and British looking, that was not "simply not true". It is true. The Welsh are not a dark-skinned, swarthy people

I never said that the Welsh were swarthy or dark skinned. If you read an earlier post of mine I said that swarthy, dark skinned Welsh are not that common. My point is about hair colour and eye colour. You can have dark brown hair and eyes and still not be dark skinned.

Quote
My observation of northern Europeans in general, including the Germans and Dutch, is that they are dark haired.

Are you kidding me? Dutch and Germans are generally fairer than average Brits in my experience.

Quote
I recall from some of your earlier posts that you cited Beddoe to the effect that Wales had a higher percentage of brown eyed people than did England. Still, in Wales, brown was not the predominant eye color. As I recall it accounted for roughly one third of the population. Having a slightly higher frequency of brown eyes than England does not make Wales the swarthy anomaly of British isles nations.

According to Fleure 1958, whose survey was larger than Beddoe, brown eyes for Wales was about 46-48% which is not just slightly higher than England, but actually significantly higher than Eastern parts of England where brown eyes vary between about 10 and 30% according to Beddoe.

There are parts of Wales - Plynlimon Moorland, Bala Cleft, Mynydd Hiraethog and Teifiside where dark brown or black hair accounts for over 70% of the population.

I challenge you to find me a hair study anywhere in England, Holland, Germany, Denmark or Scandinavia that finds dark hair to be as high as it is in Wales?

Quote
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I detect a kind of anti-Celtic animus in the general tone of your posts that disturbs me. If I am wrong, instead of getting angry at me for thinking that, perhaps you should try not to create that impression.

That made me laugh. God knows where you got that impression from!

As it happens, I am 75% Welsh and proud. Cymru am byth!









Thing is you may have more dark hair among Brits than Germans but when Germans are dark they tend to be darker than Brits, the latter usually still having fair skin and often light eyes.  A lot of the dark haired isles people belong to the peculiarly North Atlantic type where it goes with light eyes and skin.  This is much more rare on the continent where you see far more people who are all-dark in terms of hair, eyes and skin tone, something that is so rare in the isles that it gets stories made up about it implying Spanish or Italian blood.  Its relatively rare to see dark isles folk who look truly like dark continentals due to the combination of fair, skin and eye colours and also due to facial features (the British, especially the Scots, and the Irish having much larger boned skulls than is usual on the Med).


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 31, 2012, 12:04:13 PM
The amazement over dark haired, dark eyed people in the Isles keeps cropping up, as I'm sure it has for centuries. As a guy who comes from an Irish family filled with dark haired, dark eyed people I find it amusing. I have black haired, black eyed Irish cousins in Wexford and black haired, black eyed cousins in Derry. My father was black haired, black eyed and my sister and I are dark haired, dark eyed (mine are a bit hazel). It happens, and I don't think there is any deep genetic riddle to be solved.

In High School, I sat in rooms with dark haired, dark eyed Irish and fair haired, blue eyed Italians. Growing up I was often told that my "dark" coloring MUST have come from my French-Canadian 25% side, when, in fact, I know of no French-Canadian relation with anything but blue eyes.

We are not freaks!  :) Nor, are we descendants of some unexplainable strain of Iberians or Italians. We are the luck of the draw in genetics, and we appear all over Ireland, all over Britain to varrying degrees.

And, again, I'll take Andrea Corr over any fair haired, blue eyed Irish gal!

I agree with you.

Some people really struggle to accept that some indigenous British and Irish people have notably dark brown or black hair. Ireland's two greatest ever sportsmen, Roy Keane and George Best are good examples.

I have met loads of Irish people in England over the years, expats, 2nd/3rd generation with gaelic surnames and so many of them fit that look, very dark hair, almost black and often blue eyes.

Because this doesn't fit with the myth of the red haired celt, people invent ridiculous explanations for these darker looks such as the Spanish Armada, Roman Soldiers, Gypsies, Italian immigrants, and on and on...

IMHO, very dark hair (I'm not talking medium brown) and sometimes brown eyes, are physical traits that have probably been in the Isles for a very long time.







Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 31, 2012, 12:12:46 PM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

It's all nonsense. Haplogroup E in question is E-V13 which is somewhat common in southern Europe and the Balkans. At this point it may be that  these early Levantines were darker complexioned.We know this haplogroup was present in the west of Europe in the neolithic, and was likely part of the mix who became "Welsh". There is no need for a fantastical story, especially when E-V13 was found in neolithic Northern Spain 5000 BC, and we are proposing immigration from Iberia to Wales. Moreover, E-V13 is found everywhere in Europe, including England, Ireland, Norway, Sweden...etc but at low levels.

E-V13 could have been present in prehistoric North Wales and it may have survived to today in low levels but that is just one theory and it is not proven.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 31, 2012, 12:36:36 PM
alantrowel,

Quote
What charts like that of Beddoe do is hide the fact that the vast majority of his light category was probably only a shade lighter than mid brown while the vast majority of his dark was only a shade darker than mid Brown.  Its very misleading giving the impression of a  east and a dark west when in majority reality the difference is mid-dark brown in the west and mid-light brown in the east.  Hardly a massive difference.  I think there is a difference but that is about as much as it amounts to when it comes to hair.  However, eye colour does not follow and east west trend and light eyes seem to peak in both the north-east of England/east of Scotland where hair is lighter and in the usually darker haired but lighter eyed populations of Ireland and western Scotland.  It seems for some reason the prehistoric population of Ireland and northern Britain was much more light eyed than much of the southern half of England as well as Wales.  That is interesting although hard to explain (Roman empire??, more late prehistoric arrivals??).

We could argue all day along about different shades of hair colour. It really is down to an individual's perception of what is fair and what is dark.

Nevertheless, Beddoe did observe noticable differences bewtween different parts of Britain - Welsh and Cornish had darker hair and eyes whereas Northumberland, Yorkshire and Lincolnshire were muchlighter in hair and eye colour. You can't dispute this?

Quote
Thing is you may have more dark hair among Brits than Germans but when Germans are dark they tend to be darker than Brits, the latter usually still having fair skin and often light eyes.

I disagree with this. If we accept that northern Germany, Denmark and Friesland are source populations for the Anglo-Saxons, etc, then in my experience these areas are much fairer haired than the Celtic West. I've never met a Dane or German who is as dark as Catherine Zeta Jones for instance .


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: NealtheRed on August 31, 2012, 01:35:14 PM
I've never met a Dane or German who is as dark as Catherine Zeta Jones for instance .

This may be anecdotal evidence, but I've run across a number of Danes and Germans who are swarthy and dark haired. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of pale Welsh with red hair and light eyes. 


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 31, 2012, 02:00:49 PM
The amazement over dark haired, dark eyed people in the Isles keeps cropping up, as I'm sure it has for centuries. As a guy who comes from an Irish family filled with dark haired, dark eyed people I find it amusing. I have black haired, black eyed Irish cousins in Wexford and black haired, black eyed cousins in Derry. My father was black haired, black eyed and my sister and I are dark haired, dark eyed (mine are a bit hazel). It happens, and I don't think there is any deep genetic riddle to be solved.

In High School, I sat in rooms with dark haired, dark eyed Irish and fair haired, blue eyed Italians. Growing up I was often told that my "dark" coloring MUST have come from my French-Canadian 25% side, when, in fact, I know of no French-Canadian relation with anything but blue eyes.

We are not freaks!  :) Nor, are we descendants of some unexplainable strain of Iberians or Italians. We are the luck of the draw in genetics, and we appear all over Ireland, all over Britain to varrying degrees.

And, again, I'll take Andrea Corr over any fair haired, blue eyed Irish gal!

I agree with you.

Some people really struggle to accept that some indigenous British and Irish people have notably dark brown or black hair. Ireland's two greatest ever sportsmen, Roy Keane and George Best are good examples.

I have met loads of Irish people in England over the years, expats, 2nd/3rd generation with gaelic surnames and so many of them fit that look, very dark hair, almost black and often blue eyes.

Because this doesn't fit with the myth of the red haired celt, people invent ridiculous explanations for these darker looks such as the Spanish Armada, Roman Soldiers, Gypsies, Italian immigrants, and on and on...

IMHO, very dark hair (I'm not talking medium brown) and sometimes brown eyes, are physical traits that have probably been in the Isles for a very long time.







I agree with the last bit.  I find it interesting though that the light eyes division in the isles doesnt coincide with the Germanic-Celtic divide in any neat way.  A line from Chester to London marks a division between the lighter and darker eyed areas (although we should not exagerate this).  The light area includes highland Scotland and Ireland as well as the north of England.  What I find interesting about that is it indicates that before the Germanic invasions there was already an eye colour contrast within the British Isles.  In general the non-Germanic light eyed areas (basically highland Scotland and Ireland) does coincide with relatively isolated areas which were distant from the continent and also were outside the Roman Empire.   The dark hair/light eyed combination that is very common in Ireland and Scotland (and fairly common throughout Britain) must be early because that combination could not be brought about through the mixing of a very dark population with a superstrate of fair people (unless it was very dominant).  That would go against the science of inheritance.  


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 31, 2012, 02:39:29 PM
I've never met a Dane or German who is as dark as Catherine Zeta Jones for instance .

This may be anecdotal evidence, but I've run across a number of Danes and Germans who are swarthy and dark haired. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of pale Welsh with red hair and light eyes. 

True, personal anecdotes and observations only go so far. Which is why I have referred to actual studies of people in the areas we are talking about.

Beddoe (Races of Britain 1885) and Fleure and Davies (Physical Character among Welshmen 1958) both reach similar conclusions about the higher proportion of darker hair and eyes within the Welsh population, compared to the English population.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on August 31, 2012, 03:04:54 PM
The amazement over dark haired, dark eyed people in the Isles keeps cropping up, as I'm sure it has for centuries. As a guy who comes from an Irish family filled with dark haired, dark eyed people I find it amusing. I have black haired, black eyed Irish cousins in Wexford and black haired, black eyed cousins in Derry. My father was black haired, black eyed and my sister and I are dark haired, dark eyed (mine are a bit hazel). It happens, and I don't think there is any deep genetic riddle to be solved.

In High School, I sat in rooms with dark haired, dark eyed Irish and fair haired, blue eyed Italians. Growing up I was often told that my "dark" coloring MUST have come from my French-Canadian 25% side, when, in fact, I know of no French-Canadian relation with anything but blue eyes.

We are not freaks!  :) Nor, are we descendants of some unexplainable strain of Iberians or Italians. We are the luck of the draw in genetics, and we appear all over Ireland, all over Britain to varrying degrees.

And, again, I'll take Andrea Corr over any fair haired, blue eyed Irish gal!

I agree with you.

Some people really struggle to accept that some indigenous British and Irish people have notably dark brown or black hair. Ireland's two greatest ever sportsmen, Roy Keane and George Best are good examples.

I have met loads of Irish people in England over the years, expats, 2nd/3rd generation with gaelic surnames and so many of them fit that look, very dark hair, almost black and often blue eyes.

Because this doesn't fit with the myth of the red haired celt, people invent ridiculous explanations for these darker looks such as the Spanish Armada, Roman Soldiers, Gypsies, Italian immigrants, and on and on...

IMHO, very dark hair (I'm not talking medium brown) and sometimes brown eyes, are physical traits that have probably been in the Isles for a very long time.







I agree with the last bit.  I find it interesting though that the light eyes division in the isles doesnt coincide with the Germanic-Celtic divide in any neat way.  A line from Chester to London marks a division between the lighter and darker eyed areas (although we should not exagerate this).  The light area includes highland Scotland and Ireland as well as the north of England.  What I find interesting about that is it indicates that before the Germanic invasions there was already an eye colour contrast within the British Isles.  In general the non-Germanic light eyed areas (basically highland Scotland and Ireland) does coincide with relatively isolated areas which were distant from the continent and also were outside the Roman Empire.   The dark hair/light eyed combination that is very common in Ireland and Scotland (and fairly common throughout Britain) must be early because that combination could not be brought about through the mixing of a very dark population with a superstrate of fair people (unless it was very dominant).  That would go against the science of inheritance.  

Yes, the eye colour distribution according to Beddoe is interesting. Looking at the figures again the lightest eyed areas were in northern England (Danelaw?) but southern and central England had higher proportions of brown eyes. Cornwall and Wales were obviously higher again.

Interestingly, both Beddoe and Fleure found that women were darker than men in hair and eye colour, though it wasn't a big difference.

I think that Fleure also believed that the dark hair/light eyes combination was also associated with Brittany and the Atlantic coast of France down to the Loire.








Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: dodelo on August 31, 2012, 03:53:37 PM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

There is a clearly a problem with Abergele but that is why I ignored it .  The  Roman soldiers association with E has been mentioned in the past e.g. Stephen Bird ,  I thought you may have had some additional info .

I think people jumped on the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele for the simple reason that there was a Roman Fortlet in the area, but nobody considered, or perhaps even knew about the modern. 20th century history of the north Wales coastal towns such as Abergele, Rhyl, Prestatyn, etc.

There were Roman Forts in North Wales but I don't think there is much evidence of actual Roman settlement in North Wales.

So nothing to refute Bird's paper . Segontium overlooking the Menai straits  at Caernarfon was a garrison for over 300 years , the longest of all Welsh garrisons .

 


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: NealtheRed on August 31, 2012, 04:57:12 PM
I've never met a Dane or German who is as dark as Catherine Zeta Jones for instance .

This may be anecdotal evidence, but I've run across a number of Danes and Germans who are swarthy and dark haired. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of pale Welsh with red hair and light eyes. 

True, personal anecdotes and observations only go so far. Which is why I have referred to actual studies of people in the areas we are talking about.

Beddoe (Races of Britain 1885) and Fleure and Davies (Physical Character among Welshmen 1958) both reach similar conclusions about the higher proportion of darker hair and eyes within the Welsh population, compared to the English population.

I am still of the impression that Celtic fringe folk are fairer, especially when it comes to skin and sunburns. Maybe that's why we see more red hair in Ireland/Scotland - the combination with milky skin.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on August 31, 2012, 09:22:27 PM
@avalon

I would have never guessed you had any Welsh blood at all. It's surprising, given the tone of your posts.

No, I wasn't kidding about the Dutch and Germans. I haven't conducted population studies of them, but I know dark hair is common in both the Netherlands and Germany.

I think we are talking past one another. I'm not sure how to correct that. I don't much care for your posts, so I think I will largely ignore them.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: A.D. on August 31, 2012, 11:03:46 PM
I've looked at these eye and hair colour maps , studies etc a lot. In fact its what got me into dna in the first place. Why is NW europe have more blue eyes and  hair than any where else. I'm of the opinion it gets very misleading. The term 'light eyes' means a mixture. True 'Green eyes' are surpossed to be the rarest and seem to be ever so slightly more common in Asia. So what we call green eyes are an admixture of elements. There is no such thing as blue colouring of the eyes this is down to the reflective  propeties, the Rayleigh effect, what makes the sky blue hence 'red-eye in photos and Purple/Violet eyes . As for Gray eyes scientists haven't even bothered they are assumed to be 'too close to blue' even though they contain yellow. It could be that Gray is a futher lightening of Brown. This would run- black, dark brown, hazel, pale hazel (yellowish) gray with yellow flecks through to an off white colour.
The highest percentage of light eyes is around the N and E Baltic this is due to the mixture of blue and gray.
   


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 01, 2012, 02:08:50 AM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

There is a clearly a problem with Abergele but that is why I ignored it .  The  Roman soldiers association with E has been mentioned in the past e.g. Stephen Bird ,  I thought you may have had some additional info .

I think people jumped on the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele for the simple reason that there was a Roman Fortlet in the area, but nobody considered, or perhaps even knew about the modern. 20th century history of the north Wales coastal towns such as Abergele, Rhyl, Prestatyn, etc.

There were Roman Forts in North Wales but I don't think there is much evidence of actual Roman settlement in North Wales.

So nothing to refute Bird's paper . Segontium overlooking the Menai straits  at Caernarfon was a garrison for over 300 years , the longest of all Welsh garrisons .

 

Do you know anything about the geography of Wales? Caernarfon is not Abergele.

Is there any evidence that Romans actually settled in this area?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 01, 2012, 02:32:32 AM
rms2,

Quote
I would have never guessed you had any Welsh blood at all. It's surprising, given the tone of your posts.

Can you direct me to any of my posts that were anti-Welsh or anti-Celtic? I honestly don't see why you think this. If anything, because of my Welsh blood, I am actually biased towards the Celtic countries.

Quote
I think we are talking past one another. I'm not sure how to correct that. I don't much care for your posts, so I think I will largely ignore them.

Frankly, this is an immature response from somebody who realises they have lost the argument.

I have read a lot of your posts on this forum and on most topics you present good arguments and are knowledgeable. However, on this topic you are blind to the evidence.

I refer of course to Beddoe, Fleure, James and Davies, who I repeat, are the only people to have systematically recorded the hair and eye colour of people living in Wales.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 01, 2012, 02:42:04 AM
I've never met a Dane or German who is as dark as Catherine Zeta Jones for instance .

This may be anecdotal evidence, but I've run across a number of Danes and Germans who are swarthy and dark haired. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of pale Welsh with red hair and light eyes. 

True, personal anecdotes and observations only go so far. Which is why I have referred to actual studies of people in the areas we are talking about.

Beddoe (Races of Britain 1885) and Fleure and Davies (Physical Character among Welshmen 1958) both reach similar conclusions about the higher proportion of darker hair and eyes within the Welsh population, compared to the English population.

I am still of the impression that Celtic fringe folk are fairer, especially when it comes to skin and sunburns. Maybe that's why we see more red hair in Ireland/Scotland - the combination with milky skin.


I agree about skin tone. Brits and Irish are on the whole lighter skinned.

My point is about the prevelance of very dark, sometimes black hair present throughout the Isles, particularly in the Celtic parts. Also, the notably high proportion of brown eyes in Wales.

I have yet to see any evidence that the Dutch, Scandinavians or Germans have as much dark hair or brown eyes (in the case of Wales)?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: dodelo on September 01, 2012, 04:47:14 AM
Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

There is a clearly a problem with Abergele but that is why I ignored it .  The  Roman soldiers association with E has been mentioned in the past e.g. Stephen Bird ,  I thought you may have had some additional info .

I think people jumped on the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele for the simple reason that there was a Roman Fortlet in the area, but nobody considered, or perhaps even knew about the modern. 20th century history of the north Wales coastal towns such as Abergele, Rhyl, Prestatyn, etc.

There were Roman Forts in North Wales but I don't think there is much evidence of actual Roman settlement in North Wales.

So nothing to refute Bird's paper . Segontium overlooking the Menai straits  at Caernarfon was a garrison for over 300 years , the longest of all Welsh garrisons .

 

Do you know anything about the geography of Wales? Caernarfon is not Abergele.

Is there any evidence that Romans actually settled in this area?
Yes , I am perfectly aware of the geography of NW Wales . Did I conflate Abergele with Caernarfon?  If you had read my post you would have noted that I said I was ignoring Abergele . Fwiw they are only a maximum of three days march apart .

Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?
My original  question was looking for any evidence of a refutation of Bird , it appears there isn't .


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 01, 2012, 06:45:32 AM
dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.

By way of comparison, the Normans built castles all over North Wales - Caernarfon, Harlech, Conwy, Rhuddlan and yet nobody has ever suggested that there was much Anglo-Norman settlement in these areas?

I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: OConnor on September 01, 2012, 07:01:16 AM



I wonder what kind of impact (small scale obviously) trading and fishing had in the last 500 or 600 years. I read an nteresting bookk recently called Cod, about Cod fishings role throughout history. When you consider Portuguese and Basques were fishing the North Atlantic heavily even pre Columbus' voyage there must have been some interaction with coastal communities.

There is some recent archaeological finds in the Azores which is in the middle of the Atlantic. Well before Columbus. I believe the findings, and future study there will be very interesting, and maybe shed some more light on maritime travel.
(I don't know if, or how, or when the Basque fit into this picture.)
 
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  

"The president of the Portuguese Association of Archeological Research (APIA), Nuno Ribeiro, revealed Monday having found rock art on the island of Terceira, supporting his believe that human occupation of the Azores predates the arrival of the Portuguese by many thousands of years"

"He has claimed to have found in the Azores a significant number of ancient ruins from the fourth century BC. Based on these findings, he believes, it is possible to establish that human presence in the Azores precedes the Portuguese occupation of the islands in the fifteen century."

http://portuguese-american-journal.com/archeology-prehistoric-rock-art-found-in-caves-on-terceira-island-azores/


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on September 01, 2012, 08:01:18 AM
Regarding the Azores and in a more recent timeframe, there is an ancient Azores  island of St Brendon charted on many Medieval maps supposedly founded by St Brendan the Irish Monk. Another example is Hy Brazil west of Ireland.

"This except from Ortelius’ 1570 Theatrum Orbis Terrarum displayed quite a large number of phantom lands in the North Atlantic, such as Frisland (Friesland), Santana, St. Brendan's Island (S. Bradain), Estotiland, Green Island (Y Verdo), and Vlaenderen.

It’s hard to say exactly how the myth of the island of Hy-Brasil began, or if it merely represented a piece of land that was poorly charted and later rediscovered and renamed. Some postulate that the island could simply be Porcupine Bank (a shoal 200 km west of Ireland) exposed at extreme low tide; this is where an 1830 chart had ‘Brazil Rock’ located. Others link it to islands in the Azores, or to early knowledge of what would become known as North America (supposedly ‘Brasil’ was one of the lands visited by John Cabot). Supposedly it could be seen in the distance from the Aran Islands, and occasional reports of people claiming to have visited the island persisted right until 1865 (as ‘Brazil Rock’)."

http://www.sbimailservice.com/brendan.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan

The Phoenicians and Celts of Tartessos are reported to have had exchanges with the Azores.

http://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: dodelo on September 01, 2012, 08:24:29 AM
dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.



I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.

The “probably nonsense “ which led to my interest of some sort of refutation  and hence the question has been amended to  “there are other possibilities “ .

Garrisons do have an impact on local genetics whether those garrisoned are short stay or not .We also have evidence from two days march away at Chester (where there is another cluster of E3b1a2) of actual marriages between Roman soldiers and local women . AH.A. Hogg secretary of RCAHM in Wales considered that over 100 homesteads in NW Wales  were Roman .


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: dodelo on September 01, 2012, 10:00:57 AM



I wonder what kind of impact (small scale obviously) trading and fishing had in the last 500 or 600 years. I read an nteresting bookk recently called Cod, about Cod fishings role throughout history. When you consider Portuguese and Basques were fishing the North Atlantic heavily even pre Columbus' voyage there must have been some interaction with coastal communities.

There is some recent archaeological finds in the Azores which is in the middle of the Atlantic. Well before Columbus. I believe the findings, and future study there will be very interesting, and maybe shed some more light on maritime travel.
(I don't know if, or how, or when the Basque fit into this picture.)
 
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  

"The president of the Portuguese Association of Archeological Research (APIA), Nuno Ribeiro, revealed Monday having found rock art on the island of Terceira, supporting his believe that human occupation of the Azores predates the arrival of the Portuguese by many thousands of years"

"He has claimed to have found in the Azores a significant number of ancient ruins from the fourth century BC. Based on these findings, he believes, it is possible to establish that human presence in the Azores precedes the Portuguese occupation of the islands in the fifteen century."

http://portuguese-american-journal.com/archeology-prehistoric-rock-art-found-in-caves-on-terceira-island-azores/

It would have been good to have seen some pics of the rock art  . If in a cave then possibly pictographs . The Azores are not the Canaries but  it is worth bearing in mind that the rock art there which is open air and engraved and has some similarities with European examples  is probably much later .


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2012, 02:48:39 PM
rms2,

Quote
I would have never guessed you had any Welsh blood at all. It's surprising, given the tone of your posts.

Can you direct me to any of my posts that were anti-Welsh or anti-Celtic? I honestly don't see why you think this. If anything, because of my Welsh blood, I am actually biased towards the Celtic countries.

Quote
I think we are talking past one another. I'm not sure how to correct that. I don't much care for your posts, so I think I will largely ignore them.

Frankly, this is an immature response from somebody who realises they have lost the argument.

I have read a lot of your posts on this forum and on most topics you present good arguments and are knowledgeable. However, on this topic you are blind to the evidence.

I refer of course to Beddoe, Fleure, James and Davies, who I repeat, are the only people to have systematically recorded the hair and eye colour of people living in Wales.

This will probably be my last post in response to one of yours.

You continue to refer to old, non-genetic studies to which none of the rest of us has access, unless we find and purchase the books that contain them. That's fine; I sometimes refer to books that other people here do not have. But there can be no "argument" when one constantly refers to sources those who disagree with him do not have and uses them as if they were the absolute last word on the subject.

What I said about the tone of your posts and the impression you create began in that old "People of the British Isles" thread, and I am not the only one who got the impression I described.

I also get the impression that we are talking about different things. At this point, I don't really care enough to engage in a struggle to sort that out.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 01, 2012, 02:54:24 PM
I posted the following elsewhere before, but it is relevant here, since it makes mention of the frequency of a couple of the variants of the MCR1 gene responsible for red hair and their frequency in Wales, which is quite high.

Here (http://irishtribesman.blogspot.com/2007/01/red-hair-is-most-common-in-ireland.html) is something interesting on red hair in the British Isles.

Robin McKie cites actual genetic research by the People of the British Isles Project showing the frequency of the two variants of the MCR1 gene that are responsible for red hair.

Quote from: Robin McKie

Enter the scientists of the People of the British Isles project: thanks to their efforts, this most distinctive characteristic is now opening up its mysteries for the first time. Testing their white cell samples for two of the half-dozen red-hair versions of the MC1R gene, they were able to show their frequency in each area of the British Isles. The results were intriguing.

Where one is the maximum value, they got figures of 0.16 and 0.23 for the frequencies of red-hair genes in Cornwall and Devon. The frequency in Oxfordshire was 0.07; in Sussex and Kent 0.13; in northeast England 0.11; in Lincolnshire 0.07; and in Cumbria nil. In Wales the figure was 0.21, and in Orkney a high 0.26. But the highest was in Ireland. Using data from other research studies, the team got a figure for Ireland of 0.31, confirmation of the stereotypical image of the red-haired Irishman.

The results are remarkable, as Sir Walter Bodmer, the Oxford geneticist leading the project, acknowledges: “I was amazed at them. I didn’t expect to see something like this.”

The research gives us, for the first time, an insight into the startling numbers of native people who have been described as having red hair in ancient times.


To sum up, these are the frequencies of the two red-hair variants of the MCR1 gene studied by Bodmer and the People of the British Isles Project.

Cornwall: 16%
Devon: 23%
Wales: 21%
Orkney: 26%
Oxfordshire: 7%
Sussex and Kent: 13%
North East England: 11%
Lincolnshire: 7%
Cumbria: 0%
Ireland: 31%


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 02, 2012, 01:04:21 PM
rms2,

I know you'd love to have the last word on this subject, but ignoring me really is an admission of defeat. If you don't care about this topic then why do you keep posting?

Quote
You continue to refer to old, non-genetic studies to which none of the rest of us has access, unless we find and purchase the books that contain them

Just because these studies are old that doesn't make them wrong. And alantrowel has referred to Beddoe's figures in his posts so clearly he has access.

Also, Bryan Sykes covers this topic quite a bit in his book "Blood of the Isles."

Quote
studies to which none of the rest of us has access

As a matter of fact you can access some of the information through Carleton Coon "Races of Europe" which is online. As I have said before, Coon cited the work of Beddoe and Fleure in his summary of GB, although when Coon published in 1939 he didn't have access to Fleure and Davies complete work (including extensive surveys of Central and Northern Wales), published in 1958.

This is what he said about hair colour:

Quote
Both the English and the  Scotch have as much red hair as the Irish, while the Welsh have more; both the Scotch and the Irish have somewhat higher increments of black hair than England with Wales; and if Wales is studied separately, England emerges as the lightest haired of the four major divisions of the British Isles, and Wales as the darkest

Quote
In Wales, 10 per cent of the total have black hair, and only 8 per cent are fair in the English sense. Dark brown predominates over medium brown, while red, which averages 5 per cent, runs as high as 9 per cent in small localities. Beddoe finds as much as 86 to 89 per cent of black and dark brown hair in such places as Newquay and Denbighshire Upland. On the whole, Wales, in accordance with its mountainous character and its general preservation of ancient cultural traits, is a region of strong local variability, which manifests itself particularly in pigmentation.

On eye colour:

Quote
Wales, however, is notably darker eyed. Out of Beddoe's series of 3000, 34 per cent are called brown eyed, 15 per cent mixed, and 51 per cent light. Although the light-eyed element is still the more numerous in the principality as a whole, it is possible to distinguish typically dark-eyed districts. Fleure found between 60 per cent and 70 per cent of "dark" eyes in Landyssul, Newquay, and Denbighshire Upland, and Beddoe found the same among the Abergavenny country people, among the townsmen of Brecon, and in Merthyr and Taffvale. These are all isolated regions, and the antiquity of dark eye color in Wales is evident.

My only point on this topic is that dark hair and dark eyes are more prevelant in Wales than in England. In some parts of Wales, particularly the rural, Welsh speaking areas, the proportion of dark brown/black hair and brown eyes was significantly higher than in England.

I have never said that the Welsh were a swarthy, dark skinned minority in Britain, that is not my position.

Quote
What I said about the tone of your posts and the impression you create began in that old "People of the British Isles" thread, and I am not the only one who got the impression I described.

And yet, you have still to highlight anything I have specifically said that was anti-Welsh or anti-Celtic?

It's absurd. I have deep ancestry (through 3 grandparents) in Wales going back centuries, with possible descent from a 10th century Welsh prince.

Although I live in England, through relatives I have spent a lot of time in North Wales. I have a strong pride in the area and know a lot about its people, their culture and the history of this beautiful corner of the world.














Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 02, 2012, 01:47:14 PM
I posted the following elsewhere before, but it is relevant here, since it makes mention of the frequency of a couple of the variants of the MCR1 gene responsible for red hair and their frequency in Wales, which is quite high.

Here (http://irishtribesman.blogspot.com/2007/01/red-hair-is-most-common-in-ireland.html) is something interesting on red hair in the British Isles.

Robin McKie cites actual genetic research by the People of the British Isles Project showing the frequency of the two variants of the MCR1 gene that are responsible for red hair.

Quote from: Robin McKie

Enter the scientists of the People of the British Isles project: thanks to their efforts, this most distinctive characteristic is now opening up its mysteries for the first time. Testing their white cell samples for two of the half-dozen red-hair versions of the MC1R gene, they were able to show their frequency in each area of the British Isles. The results were intriguing.

Where one is the maximum value, they got figures of 0.16 and 0.23 for the frequencies of red-hair genes in Cornwall and Devon. The frequency in Oxfordshire was 0.07; in Sussex and Kent 0.13; in northeast England 0.11; in Lincolnshire 0.07; and in Cumbria nil. In Wales the figure was 0.21, and in Orkney a high 0.26. But the highest was in Ireland. Using data from other research studies, the team got a figure for Ireland of 0.31, confirmation of the stereotypical image of the red-haired Irishman.

The results are remarkable, as Sir Walter Bodmer, the Oxford geneticist leading the project, acknowledges: “I was amazed at them. I didn’t expect to see something like this.”

The research gives us, for the first time, an insight into the startling numbers of native people who have been described as having red hair in ancient times.


To sum up, these are the frequencies of the two red-hair variants of the MCR1 gene studied by Bodmer and the People of the British Isles Project.

Cornwall: 16%
Devon: 23%
Wales: 21%
Orkney: 26%
Oxfordshire: 7%
Sussex and Kent: 13%
North East England: 11%
Lincolnshire: 7%
Cumbria: 0%
Ireland: 31%


Cumbria 0%??? So nobody in Cumbria carries this gene for red hair? Anybody who has actually been to Cumbria would question this!

John Beddoe did observe relatively high levels of red hair in South Wales. But as I have said before, post-Industrial South East Wales is not like the rest of Wales. Having said that Fleure and Davies 1958 did find the following red hair percentages for Wales:

South Pembrokeshire 12.6%
Anglesey 7%
Cardiganshire 6.7%
Plynlumon and Dyfi basin 6.3%
South East Carmarthenshire 8.3%
Bala Cleft 3%
Gower 5%
Ardudwy 4.4%
Mynydd Hiraethog 6.2%
Arfon 3.9%
Llyn 4.4%

It does vary, but on the whole, apart from Anglesey, North Wales has less red hair than South Wales.





Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 02, 2012, 02:12:03 PM
I recall somewhere hearing a study that the survival of Gaelic languages has a correlation with both an elevation of dark and red hair.  In my experience red hair seems to rise in areas where dark hair is also common.  I think red hair was a minority element of the dark haired/fair skinned/light eyed ancient population element.  While I think it pre-dates the division of Celts and Germans etc I think red hair clearly had a peak among the isles pre-Roman populations. However, I also believe it additionally had survived in parts of the North Sea fringe that became part of the Germanic world (it seems common in Holland from personal experience).  So, it seems to be a hyper-peripheral recessive thing that survived from extremely remote times all round the sea fringes of northern Europe (as well as other areas). 


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 02, 2012, 02:20:16 PM
rms2,

I know you'd love to have the last word on this subject, but ignoring me really is an admission of defeat. If you don't care about this topic then why do you keep posting?

Quote
You continue to refer to old, non-genetic studies to which none of the rest of us has access, unless we find and purchase the books that contain them

Just because these studies are old that doesn't make them wrong. And alantrowel has referred to Beddoe's figures in his posts so clearly he has access.

Also, Bryan Sykes covers this topic quite a bit in his book "Blood of the Isles."

Quote
studies to which none of the rest of us has access

As a matter of fact you can access some of the information through Carleton Coon "Races of Europe" which is online. As I have said before, Coon cited the work of Beddoe and Fleure in his summary of GB, although when Coon published in 1939 he didn't have access to Fleure and Davies complete work (including extensive surveys of Central and Northern Wales), published in 1958.

This is what he said about hair colour:

Quote
Both the English and the  Scotch have as much red hair as the Irish, while the Welsh have more; both the Scotch and the Irish have somewhat higher increments of black hair than England with Wales; and if Wales is studied separately, England emerges as the lightest haired of the four major divisions of the British Isles, and Wales as the darkest

Quote
In Wales, 10 per cent of the total have black hair, and only 8 per cent are fair in the English sense. Dark brown predominates over medium brown, while red, which averages 5 per cent, runs as high as 9 per cent in small localities. Beddoe finds as much as 86 to 89 per cent of black and dark brown hair in such places as Newquay and Denbighshire Upland. On the whole, Wales, in accordance with its mountainous character and its general preservation of ancient cultural traits, is a region of strong local variability, which manifests itself particularly in pigmentation.

On eye colour:

Quote
Wales, however, is notably darker eyed. Out of Beddoe's series of 3000, 34 per cent are called brown eyed, 15 per cent mixed, and 51 per cent light. Although the light-eyed element is still the more numerous in the principality as a whole, it is possible to distinguish typically dark-eyed districts. Fleure found between 60 per cent and 70 per cent of "dark" eyes in Landyssul, Newquay, and Denbighshire Upland, and Beddoe found the same among the Abergavenny country people, among the townsmen of Brecon, and in Merthyr and Taffvale. These are all isolated regions, and the antiquity of dark eye color in Wales is evident.

My only point on this topic is that dark hair and dark eyes are more prevelant in Wales than in England. In some parts of Wales, particularly the rural, Welsh speaking areas, the proportion of dark brown/black hair and brown eyes was significantly higher than in England.

I have never said that the Welsh were a swarthy, dark skinned minority in Britain, that is not my position.

Quote
What I said about the tone of your posts and the impression you create began in that old "People of the British Isles" thread, and I am not the only one who got the impression I described.

And yet, you have still to highlight anything I have specifically said that was anti-Welsh or anti-Celtic?

It's absurd. I have deep ancestry (through 3 grandparents) in Wales going back centuries, with possible descent from a 10th century Welsh prince.

Although I live in England, through relatives I have spent a lot of time in North Wales. I have a strong pride in the area and know a lot about its people, their culture and the history of this beautiful corner of the world.














I dont think I would argue that the Welsh do have an elevation of darker eyes and in general darker pigmentation (although it is just a swing in percentage rather than anything too spectacular).  However, I think the contrasting high proportion of blue eyes in Scotland and Ireland (the highest outside the Baltic) does suggest that there was a very early element that was dominantly blue eyed.  A dominance of blue eyes cannot come about by additional overlay of blue eyed elements onto a predominantly dark eyed population.  That goes against the laws of genetic inheritance.  So certainly among the Scots and Irish, blue eyes must have been there early.  Purely anecdotally I have noticed there is a much larger dark eyed element among the Welsh than the Irish and Scots.  However, my feeling is that the Irish and Scots light eyed, very fair skinned group is very old in those areas, perhaps the oldest element. 


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: A.D. on September 02, 2012, 08:56:28 PM
Alan thats what bugs me the regressive blue eyes would have to massivly out number brown eyes to have a noticeable effect. Especially as blue is estimated to be 10,000-6,000 years old. With the Baltic instead of blue over brown you have blue over gray also regsesive = shades of blue/gray. By the way by gray I don't mean a light blue shade but anything up to an almost off-white colour. Incidently around the East Baltic to Siberia is a bit of a hot area for the realy rare eye colours e.g yellow or 'wolf eyes' and amber eyes. If we take the variance=age idea what does that give us.
This is a long way from Wales so maybe they missed out on something.
I did notice on one of the maps that NE Iberia and Brittany have alot of tin Cornwall and Ireland have copper Ireland having gold too. I belive the used to be gold in Wales aswell. The severn estary has long been linked with maritime transport, stonehenge etc .


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 03, 2012, 02:52:14 AM
dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.



I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.

The “probably nonsense “ which led to my interest of some sort of refutation  and hence the question has been amended to  “there are other possibilities “ .

Garrisons do have an impact on local genetics whether those garrisoned are short stay or not .We also have evidence from two days march away at Chester (where there is another cluster of E3b1a2) of actual marriages between Roman soldiers and local women . AH.A. Hogg secretary of RCAHM in Wales considered that over 100 homesteads in NW Wales  were Roman .

Ok. I was wrong to say "probably nonsense." I must try to be less blunt and confrontational in my posts.

The key to the Abergele question is whether or not the Hap E people had Welsh surnames.

Also, I am no expert on the Roman period but my understanding is that the Romans had a greater impact  on lowland England, in terms of towns, villas and settlement, than they did in the remoter parts of Wales and Northern England.

in his book "Britain AD" Francis Pryor has a map of Roman villas that closely matches Anglo-Saxon cemetaries, in that Wales and Cornwall are virtually untouched.

I would guess that Roman genetic input was greater in England than in the Celtic West.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 03, 2012, 03:58:50 AM
I agree with what you say about red hair. Ginger hair and pale skin is a very Isles based trait. I have met Dutch and Belgian red heads but it is more of a golden red and they're not as pale skinned as Brits.

On hair colour in general, my view is that dark brown, sometimes black hair is more common in Ireland and Western Britain than it is in Eastern Britain. It is worth noting that darker hair is particularly high in remote, Welsh speaking areas. Cornwall was found to have exceptionally high levels of black hair but this was observed 140 years ago so the modern population may not look the same.

The difference in England is that medium brown predominates and that lighter hair is associated with areas settled by Scandinavians and Germanics.

My perception is that the people of the Northern European coast and Scandinavia are generally lighter haired than those on Europe's Atlantic coast. If blond hair and blue eyes arose in the Baltic, then these geographic traits make sense.

I wonder if it's possible that dark haired, dark eyed Neolithic Britons were later massively overwhelmed by people from the east who had lighter eye colouring? I realise these are sweeping generalisations.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: dodelo on September 03, 2012, 07:02:29 AM
dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.



I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.

The “probably nonsense “ which led to my interest of some sort of refutation  and hence the question has been amended to  “there are other possibilities “ .

Garrisons do have an impact on local genetics whether those garrisoned are short stay or not .We also have evidence from two days march away at Chester (where there is another cluster of E3b1a2) of actual marriages between Roman soldiers and local women . AH.A. Hogg secretary of RCAHM in Wales considered that over 100 homesteads in NW Wales  were Roman .

Ok. I was wrong to say "probably nonsense." I must try to be less blunt and confrontational in my posts.

The key to the Abergele question is whether or not the Hap E people had Welsh surnames.

Also, I am no expert on the Roman period but my understanding is that the Romans had a greater impact  on lowland England, in terms of towns, villas and settlement, than they did in the remoter parts of Wales and Northern England.

in his book "Britain AD" Francis Pryor has a map of Roman villas that closely matches Anglo-Saxon cemetaries, in that Wales and Cornwall are virtually untouched.

I would guess that Roman genetic input was greater in England than in the Celtic West.
Considering my first post here , which included a please , was met with an unnecessary  “Read my earlier post “ when the query was asking for an expansion from that post  ,my third post was met with a “ do you know anything about the geography of Wales? “ which  was totally unjustified on the basis of the question and both retorts were wrong in their assumption . Yes ,you're right , you should think about the quality of responses .

 I had made it clear I was ignoring Abergele and asked if you could refute the findings of the Stephen Bird paper ,  it is clear that you hadn't read it .
  Of course the Romans had greater impacts elsewhere that doesn't mean they didn't have  an impact in NW Wales .
Pryor's  “Britain AD “ is not the place to base any conclusions on that impact .


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 03, 2012, 08:46:54 AM
dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.



I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.

The “probably nonsense “ which led to my interest of some sort of refutation  and hence the question has been amended to  “there are other possibilities “ .

Garrisons do have an impact on local genetics whether those garrisoned are short stay or not .We also have evidence from two days march away at Chester (where there is another cluster of E3b1a2) of actual marriages between Roman soldiers and local women . AH.A. Hogg secretary of RCAHM in Wales considered that over 100 homesteads in NW Wales  were Roman .

Ok. I was wrong to say "probably nonsense." I must try to be less blunt and confrontational in my posts.

The key to the Abergele question is whether or not the Hap E people had Welsh surnames.

Also, I am no expert on the Roman period but my understanding is that the Romans had a greater impact  on lowland England, in terms of towns, villas and settlement, than they did in the remoter parts of Wales and Northern England.

in his book "Britain AD" Francis Pryor has a map of Roman villas that closely matches Anglo-Saxon cemetaries, in that Wales and Cornwall are virtually untouched.

I would guess that Roman genetic input was greater in England than in the Celtic West.
Considering my first post here , which included a please , was met with an unnecessary  “Read my earlier post “ when the query was asking for an expansion from that post  ,my third post was met with a “ do you know anything about the geography of Wales? “ which  was totally unjustified on the basis of the question and both retorts were wrong in their assumption . Yes ,you're right , you should think about the quality of responses .

 I had made it clear I was ignoring Abergele and asked if you could refute the findings of the Stephen Bird paper ,  it is clear that you hadn't read it .
  Of course the Romans had greater impacts elsewhere that doesn't mean they didn't have  an impact in NW Wales .
Pryor's  “Britain AD “ is not the place to base any conclusions on that impact .


Listen, when I'm wrong I admit it. I shall be more polite to you in the future.

As for E3b, I shall keep an open mind. I would only add that 18 male samples for Abergele is a very small sample from which to draw conclusions about North Wales.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: dodelo on September 03, 2012, 09:38:48 AM
dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.



I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.

The “probably nonsense “ which led to my interest of some sort of refutation  and hence the question has been amended to  “there are other possibilities “ .

Garrisons do have an impact on local genetics whether those garrisoned are short stay or not .We also have evidence from two days march away at Chester (where there is another cluster of E3b1a2) of actual marriages between Roman soldiers and local women . AH.A. Hogg secretary of RCAHM in Wales considered that over 100 homesteads in NW Wales  were Roman .

Ok. I was wrong to say "probably nonsense." I must try to be less blunt and confrontational in my posts.

The key to the Abergele question is whether or not the Hap E people had Welsh surnames.

Also, I am no expert on the Roman period but my understanding is that the Romans had a greater impact  on lowland England, in terms of towns, villas and settlement, than they did in the remoter parts of Wales and Northern England.

in his book "Britain AD" Francis Pryor has a map of Roman villas that closely matches Anglo-Saxon cemetaries, in that Wales and Cornwall are virtually untouched.

I would guess that Roman genetic input was greater in England than in the Celtic West.
Considering my first post here , which included a please , was met with an unnecessary  “Read my earlier post “ when the query was asking for an expansion from that post  ,my third post was met with a “ do you know anything about the geography of Wales? “ which  was totally unjustified on the basis of the question and both retorts were wrong in their assumption . Yes ,you're right , you should think about the quality of responses .

 I had made it clear I was ignoring Abergele and asked if you could refute the findings of the Stephen Bird paper ,  it is clear that you hadn't read it .
  Of course the Romans had greater impacts elsewhere that doesn't mean they didn't have  an impact in NW Wales .
Pryor's  “Britain AD “ is not the place to base any conclusions on that impact .


Listen, when I'm wrong I admit it. I shall be more polite to you in the future.

As for E3b, I shall keep an open mind. I would only add that 18 male samples for Abergele is a very small sample from which to draw conclusions about North Wales.

Listen , apart from a geographic reference the only time I mentioned  Abergele in reltion to the very small sample was to clarify I was ignoring it .


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Isidro on September 03, 2012, 10:37:54 AM
Jean M
Guru
*****
Re: Ancient Welsh Query
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2012, 04:39:20 AM »    Reply with quote
The Welsh tribes are included in my Celtic tribes of the British Isles. Just click on Wales and the West.

The only person to suppose a link with Iberia was the Roman Tacitus, who just guessed that " the swarthy faces of the Silures, their generally curly hair and the fact that Hispania lies opposite, all lead one to believe that Iberians crossed in  ancient times and occupied the land." (Agricola, 11.)

This Tacitus quote has become the panacea of what Iberians looked like, actually it is such a strong piece of evidence that even today, a devote Spaniard trying to restore (on her own)a 19th Century painting of Jesus did so based on her own perception, indeed was she influenced by Tacitus?.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19349921




Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Jean M on September 03, 2012, 03:07:28 PM

Redheads gather in Holland for festival
An annual festival of redheads has been taking place in Breda, Holland.

Around 1,400 redheads from 52 countries took part in the festivities which included activities such as fashion shows and art exhibitions devoted to the colour red.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19461177


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Jean M on September 03, 2012, 03:14:49 PM
This Tacitus quote has become the panacea of what Iberians looked like,

I suspect that you men something other than "panacea", Isidro. Maybe stereotype?

Of course all Iberians are not alike, any more than the Welsh are. My Portuguese ex-husband was as dark as me (in the days before our hair went grey), but we both have sisters with lighter hair and eyes. (Not that I am Welsh.) It is the luck of the genetic draw. https://sites.google.com/site/jeanmanco/decades


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 04, 2012, 05:47:09 AM
I think it's ok to make generalisations though. Like, Italians are generally darker and Swedes are generally lighter haired, with more blue eyes.

On the Welsh..... I have one Welsh grandmother who was ginger haired, pale skinned with striking blue eyes. The other grandmother had almost black hair and dark eyes. Amongst my Welsh relatives there are all mixture of hair colours but on the whole dark hair is most common.

Generally speaking, where I live in Eastern England, lighter brown and fairer hair is more common than it is in the parts of North Wales with which I am familiar.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Jean M on September 04, 2012, 07:13:48 AM
Generally speaking, where I live in Eastern England, lighter brown and fairer hair is more common than it is in the parts of North Wales with which I am familiar.

Very true. I was brought up in Eastern England, and so were my sons, who really stood out in classrooms full of blonds. Of course many blonds go darker in adult life, so the difference is not quite so striking among adults. It is perfectly fair though to make a generalisation. And equally fair to assume that a large input of Angles helps to explain what we see today.

But colouring is so crude a tool in attempting to work out population affinities that it is best abandoned now that we have genetics. Pigmentation can change in one generation. If for example my blond, blue-eyed sister had been adopted, she would have no way of knowing that both her parents had dark hair and eyes. Likewise a child with dark colouring might have two out of four grandparents blond and blue-eyed and have no idea of this if adopted. Certainly if I had been adopted, I would never have guessed that most of my ancestors were from the Danelaw, though there is a bit of a clue in my blood-group.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 05, 2012, 03:57:32 AM
Generally speaking, where I live in Eastern England, lighter brown and fairer hair is more common than it is in the parts of North Wales with which I am familiar.

Very true. I was brought up in Eastern England, and so were my sons, who really stood out in classrooms full of blonds. Of course many blonds go darker in adult life, so the difference is not quite so striking among adults. It is perfectly fair though to make a generalisation. And equally fair to assume that a large input of Angles helps to explain what we see today.

But colouring is so crude a tool in attempting to work out population affinities that it is best abandoned now that we have genetics. Pigmentation can change in one generation. If for example my blond, blue-eyed sister had been adopted, she would have no way of knowing that both her parents had dark hair and eyes. Likewise a child with dark colouring might have two out of four grandparents blond and blue-eyed and have no idea of this if adopted. Certainly if I had been adopted, I would never have guessed that most of my ancestors were from the Danelaw, though there is a bit of a clue in my blood-group.


Very wise words Jean M.

The interesting thing about these old timer anthropologists like Beddoe, is that in their own way they were trying to answer questions about the origins of people, just like we are on this forum, but without knowledge of genetics.

I will admit that the Victorians were obsessed with race, particularly about differences between Saxon and Celt and  a lot of what they wrote wasn't just crude it was downright racist, like when they linked physical traits to intelligence.

However, I do believe that Beddoe's observation of hair colour was pretty accurate.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 06, 2012, 04:40:09 AM
Avalon wrote...

I will admit that the Victorians were obsessed with race, particularly about differences between Saxon and Celt and  a lot of what they wrote wasn't just crude it was downright racist, like when they linked physical traits to intelligence.

[/quote]

That's interesting, Avalon. I came across some Victorian 'tweaking' of reality many years ago when first researching my surname. Legend had it that we were via Siward, an Anglo-Dane. However, his only son died without any male issue! One researcher made much of a sword engraving found on a monument. He claimed 'sword' represented 'Siward'.

Victoria loved Albert & all things Germanic were held up as being virtuous. I think some researchers of that time 'found' links to Germanic progenitors where none actually existed! Ironically, Victoria's later  fondness for John Brown saw a burst of enthusiasm for all things Scottish!

I used to have a Victorian cottage & the fireplace mantlepieces were in black marble - very drab. I was told that many houses built after Albert's death had black mantlepieces in his honour. Many women dressed in black for considerable periods of time to mark Albert's passing. This gives one an idea of how close the country felt towards Victoria.

I mention the above so others might treat Victorian research with a pinch of salt on occasions. I have no bias on the issue of Celt v Germanic people as I may be from either camp!

Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 06, 2012, 11:24:44 AM

I have to say that many Welsh people have the look of Iberians. Chris Coleman, the current Welsh football manager,
Bob

Really? What about people like Rhys Ifans,Kathryn Jenkins,Martin Williams(former welsh rugby player) who has red hair BTW and this includes Stephen Jenkins former outside half?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 06, 2012, 11:42:22 AM
I think it's ok to make generalisations though. Like, Italians are generally darker and Swedes are generally lighter haired, with more blue eyes.

On the Welsh..... I have one Welsh grandmother who was ginger haired, pale skinned with striking blue eyes. The other grandmother had almost black hair and dark eyes. Amongst my Welsh relatives there are all mixture of hair colours but on the whole dark hair is most common.

Generally speaking, where I live in Eastern England, lighter brown and fairer hair is more common than it is in the parts of North Wales with which I am familiar.



You also have mixtures where the person has black hair with light blue eyes and vice versa! I was watching the BBC news the other day and it concerned a school in North West Wales,and the number of children there who had blond hair but their parents were dark haired was quite surprising;I've noticed this myself BTW!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: inver2b1 on September 06, 2012, 11:49:04 AM
Probably a lot blond haired milk men in the area.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 06, 2012, 11:49:29 AM
Aside from the R1b connection (which is probably not significant, atleast in a Out-of-Iberia sort of way), the latest genetic papers ("Genes and geography in Europe"... etc) show British (including welsh samples I suppose) and Irish clustering with other Northern Europeans like Germans and Dutch. The Spanish nearly always cluster quite far away.

That looks very interesting,do you have a link? On the BBC,I think it was the welcome trust's autosomal genetic survey stated that the Welsh,on the hand are similar to the Irish and on the other similar to the French.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 06, 2012, 11:50:45 AM
Probably a lot blond haired milk men in the area.

ROFL! That would certainly be the case in the valleys!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 06, 2012, 11:52:27 AM
I agree that there is a mixture, Bren123. However, I did say 'many', not 'all'. I would expect to see red-headed Welsh players, just as I would expect to see Scots , Irish & English rugby players with similar looks.
I think my main point was that the players who look most incongruous to me are the extremely dark haired lads. Let's reverse the situation: I'd perform a double-take if I saw a very fair-haired Italian footballer. Think of the French (rugby) flankers over the years: the one who stood out in earlier decades was Jean-Pierre Rives. If you didn't know he was French, I think most folk would have put him down as Danish, German or something similar, due to his  flaxen locks.
A few years back I was watching a Denmark game during the World Cup (or Euros) & the big talking point for us blokes  were the legions of beautiful fair-haired gals who followed the Danes. I'm sure there were girls supporting Denmark with different hair colouring, but the impression was of a sea of blondes!
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 06, 2012, 11:59:33 AM
Bob,

I would recommend reading Cunliffe, Koch, Moffat and Wilson who seem to have a good handle on this from a Culture, Language, Archealogy and Genetics point of view.

There are two view points. One is the Celtic connection with Iberia and I believe that is supported by all of the ablove.

Celtic from the West - Cunliffe and Koch
Europe Between the Oceans - Cunliffe
The Scots a Genetic Journey - Moffat and Wilson
The Sea Kingdoms - Moffat

Another is the Ancient Welsh and Britons.
One of the main LGM refugium was in Iberia, so I guess there is also an Iberian connection for the pre Celtic people. This is addressed in some of the above. I will check specific references for you when I get home this evening.

I have provided links to these books here:

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/books-worth-reading/

Isn't this just a rehashing of what Oppenheimer tried to inply?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: razyn on September 06, 2012, 12:29:03 PM
Oppenheimer is one of the numerous authors represented in Celtic from the West, but so what?  There is good stuff in these books, and maybe some malarkey too, but they move the discussion along.  Much of it is innovative, and some of that turns out to be right.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Mkk on September 06, 2012, 12:31:24 PM
Aside from the R1b connection (which is probably not significant, atleast in a Out-of-Iberia sort of way), the latest genetic papers ("Genes and geography in Europe"... etc) show British (including welsh samples I suppose) and Irish clustering with other Northern Europeans like Germans and Dutch. The Spanish nearly always cluster quite far away.

That looks very interesting,do you have a link? On the BBC,I think it was the welcome trust's autosomal genetic survey stated that the Welsh,on the hand are similar to the Irish and on the other similar to the French.
There are many genetic studies looking at Europe, many of which use tens of thousnads of SNPs.

For example:

http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg

http://rs.resalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/figure1a_600.jpg


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 06, 2012, 12:54:42 PM
rms2,

Quote
I would have never guessed you had any Welsh blood at all. It's surprising, given the tone of your posts.

Can you direct me to any of my posts that were anti-Welsh or anti-Celtic? I honestly don't see why you think this. If anything, because of my Welsh blood, I am actually biased towards the Celtic countries.

Quote
I think we are talking past one another. I'm not sure how to correct that. I don't much care for your posts, so I think I will largely ignore them.

Frankly, this is an immature response from somebody who realises they have lost the argument.

I have read a lot of your posts on this forum and on most topics you present good arguments and are knowledgeable. However, on this topic you are blind to the evidence.

I refer of course to Beddoe, Fleure, James and Davies, who I repeat, are the only people to have systematically recorded the hair and eye colour of people living in Wales.

Here's a map of red hair in europe;

(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3669/redhairineurope.png)

I forgot to mention this is from a genetic study!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 06, 2012, 12:57:14 PM
Aside from the R1b connection (which is probably not significant, atleast in a Out-of-Iberia sort of way), the latest genetic papers ("Genes and geography in Europe"... etc) show British (including welsh samples I suppose) and Irish clustering with other Northern Europeans like Germans and Dutch. The Spanish nearly always cluster quite far away.

That looks very interesting,do you have a link? On the BBC,I think it was the welcome trust's autosomal genetic survey stated that the Welsh,on the hand are similar to the Irish and on the other similar to the French.
There are many genetic studies looking at Europe, many of which use tens of thousnads of SNPs.

For example:

http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg

http://rs.resalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/figure1a_600.jpg

Thanks!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on September 06, 2012, 02:26:50 PM
Oppenheimer is one of the numerous authors represented in Celtic from the West, but so what?  There is good stuff in these books, and maybe some malarkey too, but they move the discussion along.  Much of it is innovative, and some of that turns out to be right.

One of the major conferences on the subject was "Celtic from the West". The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.

The contributions from Oppenheimer are summarised in Fig. 6.1 - 6.6. Regarding Wales his identification in Fig 6.5 of Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe showing a specific expansion event from the Balkens during the early Balkens Bronze age. It shows a large clear founding event centred in North Wales with a substantial overall rate in the Abergele cluster of 39%. This is in proximity to the Great Ormes Head, Llandudno copper mines and he links this to Bronze Age Miners.

The importance of Iberia in the migration route from M269 - L21 appears to be supported by Celtic from the West and the latest data on DF27,  M167,  DF49 and Z253.
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763708372/

Here are some of the highlights:

Part 1. Archealogy

Celtization from the West,
the contribution of architecture.
Barry Cunliffe.
Fig 1.1 Relative density of ancient ‘Celtic looking’ place names. Hot spots on the atlantic Façade including Iberia..
Fig 1.3 Greek knowledge of the Celts in the age of Hecataeus and Herodotus. Largely confined to the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Greeks and Romans are not a reliable source for commentary on the Isles as much of their knowledge was second hand.
Fig 1.4 A cognitive geography of the Atlantic Zone as it might have been viewed by an Atlantic mariner, showing major rivers and inlets of Iberia and France.
Fig 1.5 Enclave colonisation. Europe in the period c 5500 - 4100 showing the two principal routes by which the Neolithic way of life spread through Europe from the southern Balkans, the overland spread via the Danube and North European Plain and the Mediterranean route by sea ultimately to the Atlantic coast of Iberia.
Fig 1.6 The distribution of megalithic tombs shows them to be essentially an Atlantic phenomenon. The earliest tombs  - passage graves dating c 4,500 - 3,500 BC - have a maritime distribution, suggesting that the beliefs and the technologies behind the construction was along the Atlantic seaways.
Fig 1.7 The distribution of jadeite axes from their source in the Western Alps across Europe. The distribution vividly displays the exchange networks then in operation.
Fig 1.8 The distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker in Atlantic Europe during the 3rd Millennium, the crucial nodes in this network were the Tagus estuary and the Morbihan, while major hinterland routes followed the navigable rivers. The map indicates the initial movements were maritime. Trade routes with Ireland and Southern Britain for copper and tin.
Fig 1.9 The extent of the Bell Beaker complex 2700-2200 BC. Major corridors of communication by sea and river. Mediterranean, Atlantic, Danube, Rhine,
Fig 1.10 The interaction of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Complexes c2500 BC. North European Plain.

The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.
Different origins of Celtic cultural features with Linguistic Celtic origin along the Atlantic Façade, Archaeological ‘La Tene’ origin in central Europe and Historic ‘Druidic’ origin in the Isles.

Newly discovered inscriptions from the south-west of the Iberian peninsula. Tartessian. Amilcar Guerra.
An analysis of about 50 newly discovered stelae fromTartessian. Several photographs and sketches.

Part 2: Genetics.

Western Celts?
A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe. Ellen C. Royrvik.
Analysis of MC1R ‘red hair’ frequencies.
Map of Genetic variation in Europe.
Fig. 4.6 shows a Gaulish expansion leading to Iberia, Western France and the Isles.
Fig 4.7 shows a rough Highland and Lowland divide of the Isles with the south east more La Tene Gaulish and the West including Ireland representing a more pan Celtic profile.
Irish Genetics and the Celts. Brian McEvoy and Daniel Bradley.
Fig 5.1 Genetic contour map of Europe showing contours from Anatolia (SE) to the Isles (NW).
Fig 5.2 Genetic map of the Isles calculated from 300,000 SNPs spread across the autosomal genome showing Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.
Fig 5.3 Contour map showing the geographic frequency distribution of the Irish Modal Haplogroup (IMH) and closely related Y-chromosones showing the NW Ireland hot spots.
Fig 5.4 Illustrative Genealogy of the Ui Neill dynasty (and derived surnames) from the 5th C to the present day.  Future testing will provide further insights as well as generating fresh debate on the Irish past.

A reanalysis of multiple prehistoric immigrations to Britain and Ireland aimed at identifying the Celtic contributions. Stephen Oppenheimer.
Fig 6.1 Map of Europe with frequency of ancient place names which were Celtic with hotspots in NW France, Iberia and the Isles.
Fig 6.2 Frequency distribution of genetic Haplogroup R1b. Reexpansion from south west Europe refugium in Iberia. The densest gene flow follows the Atlantic façade, thus favouring Ireland which was then part of the continent.
Fig 6.3 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroups Irb2 (M26) and Irb* (P37.2). The hotspots and possible homeland of I1b in the Balkens with Irb2 in Sardinia.
Fig 6.4 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup J2 (M12) in Europe showing expansion from the Balkens and hot spots in SE and NW Iberia. (Cruciani)
Fig 6.5 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe with expansion from the Balkens. Cruciani. Hotspot in North Wales. The Basque region clusters with Ireland. North Wales Abergale cluster is an extreme outlier from the rest of the Isles.
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradient from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.

Part 3 Language and Literature

Origen of the Celtic Languages. G.R. Isaac.
An analysis of the Indo European languages.
Tracking the course of the savage tongue. David N. Parsons.
Fig 8.1 British River names.
Fig 8.2-8.5 Various maps of ancient Europe showing occurrence of ‘~briga’, ‘~duno’, ‘~duro’,’~mag’ names. Many in Iberia.
Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
“Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotle,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

The Problem of Lusitanian. Dagmar S. Wodtko.
The core region inhabited by Lusitanian’s seems to have comprised the lands between the Douro and Tejo in northern Portugal.

Celtic from the West
Cunliffe & Koch

This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives: pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This 'Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age' theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematic scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoi 'Celts' are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The 'Celtic from the West' proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula. Celtic from the West is an outgrowth of a multidisciplinary conference held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth in December 2008. In addition to 11 chapters, the book includes 45 distribution maps and a further 80 illustrations. The conference and collaborative volume mark the launch of a multi-year research initiative undertaken by the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies CAWCS]: Ancient Britain and the Atlantic Zone ABrAZo]. Contributors: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 06, 2012, 04:18:23 PM
The importance of Iberia in the migration route from M269 - L21 appears to be supported by Celtic from the West and the latest data on DF27,  M167,  DF49 and Z253.


Which there is no evidence provide aDNA to back this up!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 06, 2012, 04:36:52 PM
...
Here are some of the highlights:
....
The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.

I love this thought. It seems to be just about right.

...
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradient from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.

What are the gradiants depicting? and where are the highs and lows of this measurement?

...
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae,

What dating is given for the stelae? Do they link these to stelae from other locations?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on September 06, 2012, 04:44:22 PM
The importance of Iberia in the migration route from M269 - L21 appears to be supported by Celtic from the West and the latest data on DF27,  M167,  DF49 and Z253.


Which there is no evidence provide aDNA to back this up!

There is very little Y aDNA anywhere. We will have to wait for BEAN and other studies for that.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on September 06, 2012, 05:26:09 PM
...
Here are some of the highlights:
....
The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.

I love this thought. It seems to be just about right.

...
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradient from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.

What are the gradiants depicting? and where are the highs and lows of this measurement?

...
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae,

What dating is given for the stelae? Do they link these to stelae from other locations?

Fig 6.6 Page 143, principal components analysis of Y chromosomes in Western Europe determined by relative frequencies of R1b and R1a with secondary contribution of I1b2 and I1a, shows Basque, Irish, Iberian and Gaelic clustering on the left and Scandanavia, Norway, Iceland, Denmark clustering on the right with R1a1 with England, Orkney, Shetland, Isle of man in the middle.

Fig 9.1 Page 186 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae. Phoenician colonies, Tartessian inscriptions.
Undermann (1995) has allowed 700-500 BC as the date for the Tartessian inscriptions.
Links with Phoenicians, Cadiz colony of Tyre founded 80 years after the fall of Troy.
Cypriot connection in the West operating during the period between the fall of Mycenae and the first Phoenician colonies in Southern Spain.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: eochaidh on September 06, 2012, 10:46:43 PM
"The Celts are from everywhere and nowhere."

Kaybee on the old DNA Forums used to say that it seems that we Irish came from nowhere and were dropped on the island of Ireland.

So many of us from Irish backgrounds just want to know how in the hell we got to Ireland! Of course, finding out how the Welsh got to Wales could help.

All I know is that we speak a Q-Celtic form of the Celtic language and that form is older than the P-Celtic form spoken in Gaul and on Britain. Certainly that has to tell us something!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 06, 2012, 11:42:07 PM
... All I know is that we speak a Q-Celtic form of the Celtic language and that form is older than the P-Celtic form spoken in Gaul and on Britain. Certainly that has to tell us something!

Strangely, from what I've read about language spread is that typically the archaic forms, like Q-Celtic, are found on the fringes of the original expansion. They were preserved in their isolation.   The innovations, or changes to the language, tend to happen closer to home.  This is directly related to the Satem innovations to the Indo-European languages. The Centum languages, like the Italo-Celtic and Germanic, were already gone from the homeland when the Satem changes were introduced.  The same concept is that the innovations to move to P Celtic happened closer to home after the initial expansion of archaic Q Celtic.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 07, 2012, 02:43:45 AM
... All I know is that we speak a Q-Celtic form of the Celtic language and that form is older than the P-Celtic form spoken in Gaul and on Britain. Certainly that has to tell us something!

Strangely, from what I've read about language spread is that typically the archaic forms, like Q-Celtic, are found on the fringes of the original expansion. They were preserved in their isolation.   The innovations, or changes to the language, tend to happen closer to home.  This is directly related to the Satem innovations to the Indo-European languages. The Centum languages, like the Italo-Celtic and Germanic, were already gone from the homeland when the Satem changes were introduced.  The same concept is that the innovations to move to P Celtic happened closer to home after the initial expansion of archaic Q Celtic.

That is very interesting!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 07, 2012, 03:14:05 AM

And, again, I'll take Andrea Corr over any fair haired, blue eyed Irish gal!

You could be greedy and take both!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 07, 2012, 04:48:56 AM
I hope PoBI produce meaningful results as it'd be useful to try & separate the oldest inhabitants in Wales from the Brythonic Celts, plus the later influx of Normans & Flemings etc.
If the Brythonic Celts were in a majority west of the Pennines, then I'd expect to see some similarities  between those who have Brythonic Celt origins in England & southern central Scotland with their 'cousins' in Wales.
Am I right in thinking that PoBI are in the process of evaluating Y-DNA samples? I'm sure I read that somewhere!
Bob
 


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: SEJJ on September 07, 2012, 08:54:34 AM
I hope PoBI produce meaningful results as it'd be useful to try & separate the oldest inhabitants in Wales from the Brythonic Celts, plus the later influx of Normans & Flemings etc.
If the Brythonic Celts were in a majority west of the Pennines, then I'd expect to see some similarities  between those who have Brythonic Celt origins in England & southern central Scotland with their 'cousins' in Wales.
Am I right in thinking that PoBI are in the process of evaluating Y-DNA samples? I'm sure I read that somewhere!
Bob
 

Yeah it would be brilliant if some of the clusters could be directly identified with known historical groups with a deal certainty, that would make things a lot easier - To have a reference point. A lot of them look like various mixes that are relatively local - Or at least localised enough to differentiate them from their geographical neighbours. I guess when/if there is this kind of information, it will make it easier to look at these clusters and think 'Well what kind of a history do these people have that groups A and B next to them don't have'. I think that 'yellow' cluster in Ireland and Scotland could be pretty handy for seeing how well it matches Dal Riata, and again the whole North vs South Welsh thing is interesting - I've heard on many occasions that there is a definite North/South split in Wales - Interesting to see it replicated here in some fashion too.
I think the Y-DNA part of the project could be very useful (provided they have tested to a reasonable resolution, if it's a case of just testing for R1b/R1a/I i guess it's fairly useless). Even if it takes a couple of years before it's accessible - It's still a vast amount of information.

I'm thinking that big red blob is going to best represented by R1b-U106/R1b-U152 in Y-DNA terms (compared to the other groups i mean, still plenty of L21). Given that it has a signal from Belgium to Denmark basically, i'd put money on there being some significant Belgic role in that, as well as Anglo-Saxon or Danish, especially as it includes most of the South Coast and Kent, where there seems to be a lot of U152.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: inver2b1 on September 07, 2012, 09:39:17 AM
... All I know is that we speak a Q-Celtic form of the Celtic language and that form is older than the P-Celtic form spoken in Gaul and on Britain. Certainly that has to tell us something!

Strangely, from what I've read about language spread is that typically the archaic forms, like Q-Celtic, are found on the fringes of the original expansion. They were preserved in their isolation.   The innovations, or changes to the language, tend to happen closer to home.  This is directly related to the Satem innovations to the Indo-European languages. The Centum languages, like the Italo-Celtic and Germanic, were already gone from the homeland when the Satem changes were introduced.  The same concept is that the innovations to move to P Celtic happened closer to home after the initial expansion of archaic Q Celtic.

Wasn't ireland meant to be cut off from main land Europe (supposedly there was a po[ulation drop also)  just pre iron age, and this continued for a while?
Kind of makes sense if the P shift entered Britain via Gaul.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 07, 2012, 11:13:31 AM
I can't recall where I read the info, SEJJ, but I gather a more definitive map showed some extra symbol/colour combinations. From my (appalling!) memory, I think Wales & southern Scotland apparently had a number of these additions.
That makes sense, as I was a little worried that the huge blob of red on one map seemed to indicate that the Brythonic Celts may have ceased to exist in western England & central southern Scotland! To my mind, the English & Scottish Brythonic Celt descendants would surely heavily outnumber their Welsh 'cousins' , even if only the western third of England's Celt population was considered.
Those 'sidelined' Celts need to be accounted for to help make sense of the other tribes - particularly as they potentially make up 30% + of the population of Britain. The 30%+ was a figure I read somewhere, but others may have a different view. However, if it is realistic, they may  be easy to spot in a detailed study. (I'm clinging to the hope that some haplogroups & sub-divisions may eventually be found in large numbers in various tribes, & that Y-DNA results are utilised).
I appreciate that some of these tribes will have a mix of haplogroups that might scupper any studies!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: razyn on September 07, 2012, 12:53:07 PM
I can't recall where I read the info, SEJJ, but I gather a more definitive map showed some extra symbol/colour combinations.

Over here?

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10956.msg136933#msg136933


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 07, 2012, 01:09:36 PM
I can't recall where I read the info, SEJJ, but I gather a more definitive map showed some extra symbol/colour combinations.

Over here?

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10956.msg136933#msg136933
Thanks Razyn!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: SEJJ on September 07, 2012, 02:33:33 PM
I can't recall where I read the info, SEJJ, but I gather a more definitive map showed some extra symbol/colour combinations. From my (appalling!) memory, I think Wales & southern Scotland apparently had a number of these additions.
That makes sense, as I was a little worried that the huge blob of red on one map seemed to indicate that the Brythonic Celts may have ceased to exist in western England & central southern Scotland! To my mind, the English & Scottish Brythonic Celt descendants would surely heavily outnumber their Welsh 'cousins' , even if only the western third of England's Celt population was considered.
Those 'sidelined' Celts need to be accounted for to help make sense of the other tribes - particularly as they potentially make up 30% + of the population of Britain. The 30%+ was a figure I read somewhere, but others may have a different view. However, if it is realistic, they may  be easy to spot in a detailed study. (I'm clinging to the hope that some haplogroups & sub-divisions may eventually be found in large numbers in various tribes, & that Y-DNA results are utilised).
I appreciate that some of these tribes will have a mix of haplogroups that might scupper any studies!
Bob

Ahh yes i know which one you are talking about - I've seen it also, but i can't remember the name of that particular article (It is probably somewhere in my favourites bar though).

Yeah i do think that is a good point you raise - I saw you raise it also in another thread too, if we say the population of the UK is around 62 million, Scotland 5 Million, Wales 3 Million, Northern Ireland 2 Million (Only rough of course)that leaves probably 45-50 Million English, plus 10 Million Scots, Northern Irish, Welsh in the UK alone. The English would only need to be 20-25%+ Brythonic/Celtic in order to outnumber their counterparts to the west, that's assuming that the Welsh, Northern Irish, Scots are 100% Celtic, which they aren't. Obviously the Republic of Ireland has to be factored in as well, another 4.5 Million.

Also immigrants that aren't ethnically British or Irish have to be factored in as well, and given that England apparently has the largest immigrant communities (per head say), and that quite a lot of the population density outside of London seems centred more towards the north and west (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds etc), the English would probably only have to be about 30% Brythonic in order to outnumber the Celts in Ireland, Wales and Scotland (Although everyday people in the street aren't 100% Celtic or 100% Germanic so this is an unrealistic scenario in that sense).

Now i would have thought that on average the English would be more than 30% Celtic, less in the East and more in the West (A generalisation i know) -I do agree  with your scenario - That due to the relatively small population of Ireland, Scotland, Wales - There is more Celtic ancestry from a numerical perspective in England, but conversely Ireland, Scotland and Wales proportionally are much more Celtic.

Yeah i agree - I think when we are dealing with the Celts in Britain and Ireland - We can't really use modern geographic boundaries - After all it's not as if any incomers from the continent (Belgic or Anglo Saxon) got to where our modern boundaries are and then suddenly decided to stop there. (You might argue otherwise -e.g. Offa's Dyke) although since when did a ditch prevent people moving over a 1500 year period!

I think it's misleading though to use an overarching term Celtic for those in Britain, Gaul, and Iberia as the Y-DNA demographics will be different in each case - It would be like considering the West Germanic and North Germanic peoples to be the same in terms of Y-DNA, when they aren't.

After all it's clear looking at the Y-DNA of the Celtic fringe and south-eastern Britain that we are dealing with distinct populations, but like someone said earlier i guess we don't really know what the southern and eastern lowlands of Britain were like in terms of Y-DNA before the migration era -It may have been close to identical to Ireland, Scotland, Wales - It may have been like France, western Germany etc. Although looking at parts of southern Britain now i would think that we would be looking for a population with a mixture of R1b-L21, R1b-U152, and perhaps a sprinkling of I1 and R1b-U106 (Although i suppose that last one depends on when you think it came westwards).

Then of course rises the problem that there may not be a population that represents  the pre-Germanic population in lowland Britain -It may have always been split between the Atlantic Facade and North-Sea. I don't personally think that it was that extensive at all if this was the case, although the continuity of R1b-U152 from the continent to a southern pocket in Britain (In high frequency that is) is quite interesting when you consider the Belgic people.

I think the best will be revealed when they:
a) Finish with their data and make it available (hopefully).
b) Include continental populations in larger volumes.

Sorry for the lengthy post, have a habit.
It's fun to write for a change, instead of reading :]



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 07, 2012, 03:48:51 PM
I agree that the Belgae likely had a strong influence, SEJJ. I think we tend to overlook the Low Countries (if that's what they're still called!) as sources for much of our DNA. I looked closely at Flemish & Breton potential links re my own surname, and in the process realized just how strong their presence was.
We know of  the Stewart kings' links to Brittany, but I recall that Avelina d' Hesdin, mother of Alan Fitz Flaad, was a Fleming. Wasn't it through her that the Stewarts gained their land in Scotland? I think it might have been.
 Early Armstrongs used the name Archibald, taken from the Flemish, Erkenbald. Not that that proves anything. My surname used popular Norman names such as William & Robert in the 13th C, along with the more 'local' Ninian (Ringan) etc. The moniker 'Alan' was also recorded - a Breton name!
The Conqueror didn't help matters when he arranged marriages between Bretons, Flemings & Normans in a bid to keep the peace prior to the invasion. Chuck all those people into the equation, along with the Celts who had links to the Continent, & you're left with a real puzzle to disentangle!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 08, 2012, 06:27:19 AM
... All I know is that we speak a Q-Celtic form of the Celtic language and that form is older than the P-Celtic form spoken in Gaul and on Britain. Certainly that has to tell us something!

Strangely, from what I've read about language spread is that typically the archaic forms, like Q-Celtic, are found on the fringes of the original expansion. They were preserved in their isolation.   The innovations, or changes to the language, tend to happen closer to home.  This is directly related to the Satem innovations to the Indo-European languages. The Centum languages, like the Italo-Celtic and Germanic, were already gone from the homeland when the Satem changes were introduced.  The same concept is that the innovations to move to P Celtic happened closer to home after the initial expansion of archaic Q Celtic.

Wasn't ireland meant to be cut off from main land Europe (supposedly there was a po[ulation drop also)  just pre iron age, and this continued for a while?
Kind of makes sense if the P shift entered Britain via Gaul.

There was a fall in the population of Britain during the late bronze age as well!
This BBC link is from last year:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12989605


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 08, 2012, 07:12:47 AM
SEJJ,

Quote
Yeah i do think that is a good point you raise - I saw you raise it also in another thread too, if we say the population of the UK is around 62 million, Scotland 5 Million, Wales 3 Million, Northern Ireland 2 Million (Only rough of course)that leaves probably 45-50 Million English, plus 10 Million Scots, Northern Irish, Welsh in the UK alone. The English would only need to be 20-25%+ Brythonic/Celtic in order to outnumber their counterparts to the west, that's assuming that the Welsh, Northern Irish, Scots are 100% Celtic, which they aren't. Obviously the Republic of Ireland has to be factored in as well, another 4.5 Million.

Another thing to consider is that in the modern population of England (50 million) a large number of people have Welsh, Scottish or Irish ancestry.

There was a lot of Irish emigration to Liverpool, northern England and London in the 19th century and then again after WW2 I believe.

Likewise, the modern population of Wales has plenty of people with English ancestry.

Industrialisation and the railways did alter Britain, particularly in the towns and cities. Then of course, during the 20th century the motor car gave people even more mobility.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 08, 2012, 07:30:34 AM
Bren,

Quote
Here's a map of red hair in europe;

(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3669/redhairineurope.png)

I forgot to mention this is from a genetic study!

Is this the same genetic study that claims 0% of people in Cumbria carry this gene for red hair? I find this strange given that the north east (right next to Cumbria) had 11%.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 08, 2012, 07:40:38 AM
Bren,

Quote
Here's a map of red hair in europe;

(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3669/redhairineurope.png)

I forgot to mention this is from a genetic study!

Is this the same genetic study that claims 0% of people in Cumbria carry this gene for red hair? I find this strange given that the north east (right next to Cumbria) had 11%.


I found that strange, the 0% figure for Cumbria  as well but it is more up ot date than the Beddoe study.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 08, 2012, 07:56:39 AM
I agree re the Cumbrian percentage. Bizarre! We're led to believe that the Cumbrians & Welsh were of the same tribal origins. I won't go into great depth about that, but it is said that Brythonic warriors were welcomed into each others territories etc. As a result, I would expect to see a lot of similarities between the two regions.
Is it possible that the split which occurred when tribes from the east created a chasm between the Welsh & Cumbrians resulted in  dramatically differing hair colouring? I'd doubt that would be the case.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 08, 2012, 09:26:25 AM
Bren,

Quote
Here's a map of red hair in europe;

(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3669/redhairineurope.png)

I forgot to mention this is from a genetic study!

Is this the same genetic study that claims 0% of people in Cumbria carry this gene for red hair? I find this strange given that the north east (right next to Cumbria) had 11%.


I found that strange, the 0% figure for Cumbria  as well but it is more up ot date than the Beddoe study.

You can't compare the two studies. One is about a MC1R gene for red hair and carriers of that gene are not necessarily red haired. Beddoe's observations were of actual hair and eye colour. And Beddoe was looking at all shades of hair colour, not just red which is a small minority everywhere in the UK.

And just because Beddoe's study is old that doesn't make it wrong. The works of Charles Darwin and Isaac Newton are quite old! Does that mean we should ignore them?

Likewise, don't believe everything that is modern or genetic is necessarily true, particulalrly when they produce strange results for Cumbria? Population genetics is fraught with difficulties and controversy.

Also, you're comparing two different points in history. How do we know that if had they conducted an MCR1 red hair gene study in the 1860s/70s the results would be the same as today?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: palamede on September 08, 2012, 11:24:19 AM
G2a3b1a2-L497 came from North-West Caucasus G2a3b (frequency from 25% to 65%) to Central Europe during LBK some 7700 years  ago probably (G2a3 was found in ancient dna of the German LBK).

Now, G2a3b1a2 varies from a maximum of 3-5% in North-Italy, Tyrol, Switzerland and South Germany to less than 1% in Britanic Islands (except Wales), Scandinavia and  Eastern Europe(except 2-3% in Moldavia and Romania).

Wales has a frequency greater than 1% and  a special marker dys594=11 known since several years. In FTDNA, they are grouped in a special subclade G2a3b1a2a3 in page 6/7 of http://www.familytreedna.com/public/g-ydna/default.aspx?vgroup=g-ydna&section=ycolorized

The names are 6 Williams, 5 Jones, 5 Griffin, 5 Thomas, 4 Bird, 2 Greever, 2 Wigington, 2 Walter, 2Jenkins, 2 Griffith, Rippy, Pitts, Lewis, Taylor, Anderson, Howard, Canniff, Mangum, Crow, Griffiths, Roderick, Wamsley, MacLaughlin(Petersen), Delong(DELange), Vizenor,  Doughty .

2 years ago, I tried to find new subclades. I found the welsh group was distinguished by several assembled markers (including dys594=11) :
                                                                                                                                                                           
385b=15   458>16   413a=21 594=11  446<19   572=10    plus  frequent values r 449<31  456>15   576>15    570=17    444>13   464c=13

I found the "welsh" group is included in a larger group defined by  385b=15   458>16 with the names
5 Allen, 2 Timms, Frantz, Pasak, Schock, 2 Griffin, Karcher, Bieser, Wildey, Politis, Beckner, Van Hise.

Other subgroups in the larger group
- Group 385b=15, 447=22, 458=17
3 Williams, 2 Thomas, 2 Jones, 2 Watson, Morgan, King, Coe, Douglas, Forster, Blaney, Page, Mitchell, Phillips, Greever, Taylor, Anderson, Gough, Griffith, Johnson, Kincaid
                                                                                                                                                                           
- Group 385b=15, 439=12, 458>16
10 Booher, 2 Stockton, Souders, Dubs, Friberg, Desmond, Ayers, Greever, Kyle, Beckner
                                                                                                                                                                           


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 08, 2012, 03:50:04 PM
Some interesting posts. My guess, based on very loose perusal of various haplogroup/surname combinations was that Brythonic Celts would have a good number of R1b1a2a1a1b4 amongst them. (That's not my HG, for the record!).
I recall listing a number of the older Welsh surnames, plus some of the Scottish  Stewarts (soem Bretons?),  & seeing that HG well represented.
As I said, I didn't go to great lengths, so very possibly barking up the wrong tree!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: razyn on September 08, 2012, 05:22:56 PM
My guess, based on very loose perusal of various haplogroup/surname combinations was that Brythonic Celts would have a good number of R1b1a2a1a1b4 amongst them. (That's not my HG, for the record!).

According to ISOGG now, it's not anybody's.  Old FTDNA nomenclature (since way back in '11 -- if not even longer ago) thinks it's R-L21, I guess.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 09, 2012, 06:31:51 AM
I hope PoBI produce meaningful results as it'd be useful to try & separate the oldest inhabitants in Wales from the Brythonic Celts, plus the later influx of Normans & Flemings etc.
If the Brythonic Celts were in a majority west of the Pennines, then I'd expect to see some similarities  between those who have Brythonic Celt origins in England & southern central Scotland with their 'cousins' in Wales.
Am I right in thinking that PoBI are in the process of evaluating Y-DNA samples? I'm sure I read that somewhere!
Bob
 

Bob,

I think it's difficult to figure out genetic input into Wales during historic times, nevermind during prehistory. To my mind population genetics is just not accurate enough yet, there is still so much disagreement.

For instance, how much genetic input did the Romans have on Wales? The archaeology and history would suggest less than England but who knows.

Likewise, the Strathclyde Britons under Cunedda came to Wales in the 5th century but what was their genetic input, how closely related were they to the Welsh anyway.

Then of course you have the Viking sea raiders that left placenames in South West Wales and impacted on Anglesey and there were also various connections between Wales and Ireland in the post Roman period.

Finally, what was the genetic impact of the Normans. They made various inroads into Wales between 1081 and 1282 but their occupation of Wales was largely a military one, as evidenced by all the castles but there was some Anglo-Norman settlement in Wales, such as the Vale of Clwyd and South Pembrokeshire, but Norman incursion into Wales was very much piecemeal in the Middle Ages.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 09, 2012, 06:47:37 AM
Very true, Avalon.
I re-read Henri Hubert's 'Celtic' series occasionally & it'll be interesting to see which of the authors (old & more recent) will be found to be most accurate.
DNA sampling is fraught with problems: William Rufus ferried a lot of Lincolnshire folk into parts of Cumbria, & they wouldn't generally share ancestry with the Brythonic Celts. I know the Normans had a presence, too. That's before we consider the Angles & Danes etc!
You've mentioned the various 'incomers' into Wales. I'd guess that sampling would have a greater accuracy if more remote areas were given priority, but suppose we'll have to wait for PoBI's final release to get an idea of what they actually focused on. At least time's flying by & the October (?) release date is getting closer!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 09, 2012, 06:57:58 AM
I hope PoBI produce meaningful results as it'd be useful to try & separate the oldest inhabitants in Wales from the Brythonic Celts, plus the later influx of Normans & Flemings etc.
If the Brythonic Celts were in a majority west of the Pennines, then I'd expect to see some similarities  between those who have Brythonic Celt origins in England & southern central Scotland with their 'cousins' in Wales.
Am I right in thinking that PoBI are in the process of evaluating Y-DNA samples? I'm sure I read that somewhere!
Bob
 

Yeah it would be brilliant if some of the clusters could be directly identified with known historical groups with a deal certainty, that would make things a lot easier - To have a reference point. A lot of them look like various mixes that are relatively local - Or at least localised enough to differentiate them from their geographical neighbours. I guess when/if there is this kind of information, it will make it easier to look at these clusters and think 'Well what kind of a history do these people have that groups A and B next to them don't have'. I think that 'yellow' cluster in Ireland and Scotland could be pretty handy for seeing how well it matches Dal Riata, and again the whole North vs South Welsh thing is interesting - I've heard on many occasions that there is a definite North/South split in Wales - Interesting to see it replicated here in some fashion too.
I think the Y-DNA part of the project could be very useful (provided they have tested to a reasonable resolution, if it's a case of just testing for R1b/R1a/I i guess it's fairly useless). Even if it takes a couple of years before it's accessible - It's still a vast amount of information.

I'm thinking that big red blob is going to best represented by R1b-U106/R1b-U152 in Y-DNA terms (compared to the other groups i mean, still plenty of L21). Given that it has a signal from Belgium to Denmark basically, i'd put money on there being some significant Belgic role in that, as well as Anglo-Saxon or Danish, especially as it includes most of the South Coast and Kent, where there seems to be a lot of U152.

There are dialect differences between the Welsh spoken in North and South Wales but it's not massive, mainly in some pronounciaton and vocabulary.

It doesn't surprise me to see different clusters in Wales. Much of Welsh history is littered with accounts of different Welsh tribes/kingdoms fighting each other. The Welsh only occasionally came together to confront a mutual enenmy such as the Anglo-Saxons or Normans and even then the Welsh were often betrayed by their own countrymen.

There was some work done on blood groups in the 1950s by Morgan Watkin and Fraser Roberts. I believe both noticed regional differences in Wales, like blood group O was higher in the north.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 09, 2012, 07:23:36 AM
I must consider blood groups as they are something I haven't bothered with.
On a different tack: I gather that 'deg' is Welsh for ten? I wonder if the Battle of Degsastan's location was in Liddedale, Roxburghshire at Nine Stane Rig? I imagine there may have been ten stones there originally, but one removed in later centuries for other purposes? Perhaps it should be Ten Stane Rig? It is near Dawston, which some believe was the site. Others are adamant that it wasn't!
Anyway, I've drifted off topic.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 09, 2012, 07:41:29 AM
Very true, Avalon.
I re-read Henri Hubert's 'Celtic' series occasionally & it'll be interesting to see which of the authors (old & more recent) will be found to be most accurate.
DNA sampling is fraught with problems: William Rufus ferried a lot of Lincolnshire folk into parts of Cumbria, & they wouldn't generally share ancestry with the Brythonic Celts. I know the Normans had a presence, too. That's before we consider the Angles & Danes etc!
You've mentioned the various 'incomers' into Wales. I'd guess that sampling would have a greater accuracy if more remote areas were given priority, but suppose we'll have to wait for PoBI's final release to get an idea of what they actually focused on. At least time's flying by & the October (?) release date is getting closer!
Bob

DNA sampling is problematic, not least because Industrialisation has made the British population so much more mixed than it was pre-1750. A lot of the y-dna studies in Britain ask that the participant has a grandfather born in the town but that might only take ancestry in the area back to the early 20th century.

My feeling is that rural, farming communities have been more stable within the last few hundred years, so therefore might give a better indication of deep ancestry. This isn't always true though, some people have taken up farming in more recent times.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 09, 2012, 02:29:54 PM
I must consider blood groups as they are something I haven't bothered with.
On a different tack: I gather that 'deg' is Welsh for ten? I wonder if the Battle of Degsastan's location was in Liddedale, Roxburghshire at Nine Stane Rig? I imagine there may have been ten stones there originally, but one removed in later centuries for other purposes? Perhaps it should be Ten Stane Rig? It is near Dawston, which some believe was the site. Others are adamant that it wasn't!
Anyway, I've drifted off topic.
Bob

The bit i read about blood groups was by Morgan Watkin, a Welsh scientist. http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v10/n2/abs/hdy195616a.html (http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v10/n2/abs/hdy195616a.html)
You can view the pdf.

It is from 1955 and some of what is written is dated. Nevertheless, blood group analyisis was an early type of genetic study.

It appears that in Wales blood group O is more common in North Wales than in South Wales. And the same is also true when you compare Northern England to Southern England, which is interersting.





Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: SEJJ on September 09, 2012, 04:04:52 PM
Very true, Avalon.
I re-read Henri Hubert's 'Celtic' series occasionally & it'll be interesting to see which of the authors (old & more recent) will be found to be most accurate.
DNA sampling is fraught with problems: William Rufus ferried a lot of Lincolnshire folk into parts of Cumbria, & they wouldn't generally share ancestry with the Brythonic Celts. I know the Normans had a presence, too. That's before we consider the Angles & Danes etc!
You've mentioned the various 'incomers' into Wales. I'd guess that sampling would have a greater accuracy if more remote areas were given priority, but suppose we'll have to wait for PoBI's final release to get an idea of what they actually focused on. At least time's flying by & the October (?) release date is getting closer!
Bob

DNA sampling is problematic, not least because Industrialisation has made the British population so much more mixed than it was pre-1750. A lot of the y-dna studies in Britain ask that the participant has a grandfather born in the town but that might only take ancestry in the area back to the early 20th century.

My feeling is that rural, farming communities have been more stable within the last few hundred years, so therefore might give a better indication of deep ancestry. This isn't always true though, some people have taken up farming in more recent times.

Yeah that is a very good point - In an ideal world they would test people who could prove most of their ancestry back to around that point in order for accuracy - But as for most people that is extremely difficult and/or practically impossible (It's pretty hard getting it back to the early-mid 19th century when records aren't great), i doubt they would have more than a handful of people to test unfortunately.

I think POBI did factor in that Rural/Urban split into it though - In their initial paper release some time ago there was an analysis of the East vs West in Oxfordshire, and it showed that for those who weren't rural or local, they were a lot more mixed between East/West, while the ones who were rural and local according to their criteria tended to be much less mixed, and mostly East. So i guess that is proof of what you are saying, and it applies to Wales too of course. Rural, farming communities seem much more homogenous over a certain distance than do people with a largely urban family background.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 09, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Man, if genetic studies are problematic, imagine studies that involved men in the 19th century going around and deciding whose hair was what color! Caramba!

Then, just for fun, imagine what things would have been like if those men had an agenda, like pleasing their English patrons and reinforcing their notions of the "superiority" of "Anglo-Saxon" England.

BTW, it stands to reason that an area that has a high frequency of one or more of the MC1R variants for red hair, as revealed by genetic testing, would have a higher incidence of the manifestation of red hair than areas that do not. Try to think of a scenario in which an area with a low frequency of an RHC (Red Hair Color) variant has a higher incidence of red hair than an area with a high frequency of RHC.

My Family Finder raw data revealed that I have one of the RHC variants: a "T" at rs1805008, which is also known as R160W or Arg160Trp. It is the one common in Ireland, and apparently the one tested for by the POBI Project. I have a "TC" there, so I don't have red hair myself, although my moustache used to show pretty red, and people used to tell me I had "red highlights" in my otherwise brown hair (I was blond as a kid). One needs to be homozygous at rs1805008, with a "TT", to actually have red hair, since red hair is a recessive trait.

My wife must have an RHC variant, too, even though she doesn't have red hair herself, because our youngest daughter has red hair, and our three grandchildren (two boys and a girl, the children of one of our sons) have red hair.

One of my dad's older sisters, my Aunt Lois, had red hair.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: eochaidh on September 09, 2012, 10:15:34 PM
I've got rs1805008 CT, but I only know of one full redhead in my family; my dad's first cousin on his maternal side (Quinn, Co. Derry).

I know of no redheads on my mother's side, but I think she may have had red highlights. She was gray by 30 years old. I had quite a bit of red in my beard in my 30s.

Interesting.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 10, 2012, 02:22:56 AM
I don't have red hair myself, although my moustache used to show pretty red

Rich, that reminded me of something from my youth. I had black hair as a young man, and decided to grow a beard & moustache. I was staggered to see that approx one third of it was quite red. I looked like a German Shepherd dog! My family all had black hair, so I wondered where the red had come from.
Some years ago, I managed to track down a descendant of a distant branch of our family  who shared a paper-trail ancestor in 1701. He Y-DNA tested & matched me at 66/67. He told me his lot were often red-heads. I also managed to find another distant relative from 1728, & they tested 36/37. They also had red-heads aplenty.
Most of my hair has gone now, & what I do have is grey - including my recent beard & moustache!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 10, 2012, 03:05:33 AM
Didn't really want to get bogged down in a hair colour discussion again and this thread wasn't originally about red hair....But, I may well carry a red hair gene as well. One grandmother was strikingly red haired but all my other grandparents were darker. I have very dark hair, that looks black from a distance.

The 0% figure for Cumbria still baffles me. I have been to the Lake District many times and I have met red haired, born and bred Cumbrians.

There are different red haired genes so I suppose that the Cumbrians may carry a different red haired gene to the one in this study so that might explain it.

I've got books at home by Welsh writers from the 20th century who describe the Celts as a mixture of a dark haired and red haired people, red obviously being the minority. This was the traditonal view for much of the 20th century, I've read so many references to this view in text books, guide books, general history, etc.


By the way, if we talk about stereotypes, most people I know tend to think of ginger hair as a Scottish trait rather than an Irish one! And then of course there is the sterotype of darker Welsh people.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 10, 2012, 07:32:18 AM
rms2

Quote
To sum up, these are the frequencies of the two red-hair variants of the MCR1 gene studied by Bodmer and the People of the British Isles Project.

Cornwall: 16%
Devon: 23%
Wales: 21%
Orkney: 26%
Oxfordshire: 7%
Sussex and Kent: 13%
North East England: 11%
Lincolnshire: 7%
Cumbria: 0%
Ireland: 31%


In a thread back in July you claimed that the Scadinavians and Germanics were not known for red hair.

And yet.. Orkney in this study is quite high at 26% and is known for a substantial settlement of Norse Vikings.

Also, this red hair gene map here http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/looks.shtml (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/looks.shtml) from Royrvik 2010 shows that Denmark has quite high red hair genes. According to that map even Sweden has a higher level than Ireland.

Funny that, that two different genetic studies can show different results!




Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 10, 2012, 07:43:29 AM
I don't have red hair myself, although my moustache used to show pretty red

Rich, that reminded me of something from my youth. I had black hair as a young man, and decided to grow a beard & moustache. I was staggered to see that approx one third of it was quite red. I looked like a German Shepherd dog! My family all had black hair, so I wondered where the red had come from.
Some years ago, I managed to track down a descendant of a distant branch of our family  who shared a paper-trail ancestor in 1701. He Y-DNA tested & matched me at 66/67. He told me his lot were often red-heads. I also managed to find another distant relative from 1728, & they tested 36/37. They also had red-heads aplenty.
Most of my hair has gone now, & what I do have is grey - including my recent beard & moustache!
Bob

Have you had the Family Finder test, Bob? If so, you can download your raw data and use the "Find" function in Excel to locate rs1805008 and see if you have a "T" there. You probably do.

The most common European lactase persistence markers are also among the Family Finder data.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 10, 2012, 07:53:22 AM
I hope PoBI produce meaningful results as it'd be useful to try & separate the oldest inhabitants in Wales from the Brythonic Celts, plus the later influx of Normans & Flemings etc.
If the Brythonic Celts were in a majority west of the Pennines, then I'd expect to see some similarities  between those who have Brythonic Celt origins in England & southern central Scotland with their 'cousins' in Wales.
Am I right in thinking that PoBI are in the process of evaluating Y-DNA samples? I'm sure I read that somewhere!
Bob
 

I think there is a good case that in the post-Roman period, Celtic speakers survived for longer in the North West of England compared to southern England. Cornwall and Devon are obviously excluded.

The native Celts may have sought refuge in the uplands of northern England, in the Pennines, Dales, Lakes - areas where the soils are poor so the Anglo-Saxons may have left the hills and mountains alone anyway and settled on the fertile lowlands.

I read years ago that a celtic tongue may have survived in Cumbria as late as the 11th century and of course you have the Cumbria sheep counting which resembles Celtic.

And also there is Brythonic Elmet, modern day West Yorkshire, where several place names indicated celtic survival.

Blood group O is also higher in Northern England, similar to frequencies found in the Celtic countries.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 10, 2012, 08:25:56 AM


Have you had the Family Finder test, Bob? If so, you can download your raw data and use the "Find" function in Excel to locate rs1805008 and see if you have a "T" there. You probably do.

The most common European lactase persistence markers are also among the Family Finder data.

I haven't gone that route, Rich. I could do with a lottery win to complete all the tests I'm keen to take!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 10, 2012, 08:28:52 AM
I suppose the old adage  'Take to the hills!' applied when under threat, Avalon. I know Authun is very keen on a 'Free Zone' in inaccessible reaches of the Pennines etc.
I know that when my wife is on the rampage, I take to the garden shed!
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 10, 2012, 08:31:52 AM
Man, if genetic studies are problematic, imagine studies that involved men in the 19th century going around and deciding whose hair was what color! Caramba!

Then, just for fun, imagine what things would have been like if those men had an agenda, like pleasing their English patrons and reinforcing their notions of the "superiority" of "Anglo-Saxon" England.


I don't think Beddoe had a ""superior Anglo-Saxon" agenda. He was born not far from the Welsh border and had a Welsh surname. The Welsh Eisteddfod also accepted his views in 1867 and the Eisteddfod is deeply admired in Wales. Bryan Sykes said in his book that Beddoe was thorough and balanced in his observations.

Likewise; Fleure, Elwyn Davies (very Welsh) and T James (Welsh surname) who carried out their surveys in the 1930s were very thorough in their work and displayed an intimate knowledge of Wales, not surprising given that two of them were Welsh. I believe Fleure was from the Channel Islands which makes sense given his French sounding name.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 10, 2012, 10:17:34 AM
I suppose the old adage  'Take to the hills!' applied when under threat, Avalon. I know Authun is very keen on a 'Free Zone' in inaccessible reaches of the Pennines etc.
I know that when my wife is on the rampage, I take to the garden shed!
Bob

Interesting, I have never heard the term "free zone?"

The Welsh certainly took advantage of their hilly and mountainous terrain during the many battles with the English. I guess the same could apply to the Pennines and Cumbria.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: OConnor on September 10, 2012, 10:28:53 AM
rms2

Quote
To sum up, these are the frequencies of the two red-hair variants of the MCR1 gene studied by Bodmer and the People of the British Isles Project.

Cornwall: 16%
Devon: 23%
Wales: 21%
Orkney: 26%
Oxfordshire: 7%
Sussex and Kent: 13%
North East England: 11%
Lincolnshire: 7%
Cumbria: 0%
Ireland: 31%


In a thread back in July you claimed that the Scadinavians and Germanics were not known for red hair.

And yet.. Orkney in this study is quite high at 26% and is known for a substantial settlement of Norse Vikings.

Also, this red hair gene map here http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/looks.shtml (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/looks.shtml) from Royrvik 2010 shows that Denmark has quite high red hair genes. According to that map even Sweden has a higher level than Ireland.

Funny that, that two different genetic studies can show different results!

Perhaps Erik the Red got his name because he blushed a lot ;)


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 10, 2012, 10:38:33 AM
I suppose the old adage  'Take to the hills!' applied when under threat, Avalon. I know Authun is very keen on a 'Free Zone' in inaccessible reaches of the Pennines etc.
I know that when my wife is on the rampage, I take to the garden shed!
Bob

Interesting, I have never heard the term "free zone?"

The Welsh certainly took advantage of their hilly and mountainous terrain during the many battles with the English. I guess the same could apply to the Pennines and Cumbria.
I think Authun may have invented the description. I think he was likening it to the Debateable Land between England & Scotland. I think he was suggesting that some doughty, free spirits held out on the higher ground - particularly during the Normans' Harrying of the North'
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 11, 2012, 10:10:42 AM
My grandmother on my mother's side(all are english) had jet black hair!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 11, 2012, 12:57:19 PM
My grandmother on my mother's side(all are english) had jet black hair!

You can go to every corner of the British Isles and find people with all manner of hair colours. We're a very mixed nation. There are plenty of dark haired English, just as there are plenty of fair haired Welsh or Scottish with blue eyes.

Not all English people look like Boris Johnson and not all Welsh look like Catherine Zeta Jones.

But, I happen to believe, based on a lifetime's observation, and from all that I have read, that very dark brown or black hair is more of a Celtic trait than an English one.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: inver2b1 on September 11, 2012, 01:07:02 PM
My grandmother on my mother's side(all are english) had jet black hair!

You can go to every corner of the British Isles and find people with all manner of hair colours. We're a very mixed nation. There are plenty of dark haired English, just as there are plenty of fair haired Welsh or Scottish with blue eyes.

Not all English people look like Boris Johnson and not all Welsh look like Catherine Zeta Jones.

But, I happen to believe, based on a lifetime's observation, and from all that I have read, that very dark brown or black hair is more of a Celtic trait than an English one.



I think you could get many variations within a house hold even.
There are eight in my family and we cover many variations; dark hair/blue eyes, dark hair/brown eyes, brown hair/blue eyes, brown hair/brown eyes, light hair/blue eyes and different skin coloring also.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 12, 2012, 05:01:58 AM
Just a quick re-cap:
I read somewhere that a later PoBI map contained far more symbols/colour combinations than the one many of us have seen. The original Welsh orange was broken into two clusters in the country: one being light purple crosses; the other, light yellow. Both found in Dyfed.
The light purple was also in north east Ireland & southern Scotland.
Southern Scotland also had white triangles & light blue circles.

That was a while ago, so it may be there are yet more combinations to be found on the final product.

Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 13, 2012, 04:48:12 AM
Just a quick re-cap:
I read somewhere that a later PoBI map contained far more symbols/colour combinations than the one many of us have seen. The original Welsh orange was broken into two clusters in the country: one being light purple crosses; the other, light yellow. Both found in Dyfed.
The light purple was also in north east Ireland & southern Scotland.
Southern Scotland also had white triangles & light blue circles.

That was a while ago, so it may be there are yet more combinations to be found on the final product.

Bob

That's right. I have seen three different coloured maps for this project, the most detailed being the one posted by Brian Swann on facebook. These were photos taken of the live exhibition at the Royal Society this summer.

It is worth rememberng that the clusters are autosomalDNA - the whole of a person's ancestry, not just male or female DNA lineages.

Here are some comments posted by the project team at Royal Society website:

Quote
The reason most of the samples in North West Wales are clustered in Anglesey is because our collection trip to that area involved the Anglesey Agricultural Show.  They do seem to be genetically distinct from South Wales and the Welsh Borders.  As to population characteristics, they conformed to the same criteria as the rest of our samples from throughout the UK - namely that the volunteers had all four of their grandparents born in the same rural area

Quote
The colours do not mean anything in particular.  They just denote a particular genetic cluster.  A cluster is a group of individuals that are more similar to each other genetically than to other individuals.  There is no indication on this map as to how the clusters are related to each other.  When we plot the individual samples on the map by the central position of where their grandparents were born, we get the map we have here.  This shows a very high level of concordance of the distribution of the cluster with geography.

Quote
The Cornish have similarity to the Welsh in that the Cornish and Welsh both have a high similarity to North West France.  However, the Cornish are more genetically similar to mainland England than the Welsh.

Quote
Probably one of the most surprising patterns was the clear distinction between Cornwall and Devon, virtually along the County border.  We are still thinking about the patterns and how they might be related to history.



Quote
One way to think about Cornwall, Devon and the rest of England is that Cornwall is more representative of the peopling of the British Isles from the Atlantic facing region of Europe, whilst the extensive red English cluster has a large signature from the Belgium/Denmark/North Germany area.  Devon can then be thought of as a zone of mixture between the two.  The tight boundaries are very interesting and may well be a result of political spheres of influence.

Quote
Hi Stuart,The colours do not mean anything in particular.  They just denote a particular genetic cluster.  A cluster is a group of individuals that are more similar to each other genetically than to other individuals.  There is no indication on this map as to how the clusters are related to each other.  When we plot the individual samples on the map by the central position of where their grandparents were born, we get the map we have here.  This shows a very high level of concordance of the distribution of the cluster with geography.




Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 13, 2012, 05:49:09 AM
That's interesting info, Avalon. The next few weeks are going to be fascinating, what with PoBI's report & King Richard's remains.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on September 13, 2012, 06:46:35 AM
Bob,
I am also very interested in the discovery of King Richard III remaind. Does this mean he will finally get a full state funeral and internment in Westminster Abbey.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 13, 2012, 07:26:45 AM
My morning (British) newspaper claims he will be buried in Leicester Cathedral, Heber. I really hope they extract some Y-DNA, if possible. I don't think they realise the media coverage they'd benefit from with potential male descendants stepping forward - far more so than an mtDNA link.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 13, 2012, 08:11:43 AM
Regarding red hair, here is something I posted awhile back on a thread on the subject in the autosomal subforum:

Quote
Evidently there are a number of SNPs on MC1R associated with red hair.  I guess one can acquire that trait by being homozygous (with the right nucleotide) at any one of them. Perhaps it is the combination of them that determines the shade or degree of red?

http://spittoon.23andme.com/news/snpwatch-researchers-find-link-between-red-hair-and-avoiding-the-dentist/ (http://spittoon.23andme.com/news/snpwatch-researchers-find-link-between-red-hair-and-avoiding-the-dentist/)

SNP                 “Red Hair” Version    Alternate Name For Mutation
rs34474212                            C                S83P
rs1805006                            A                D84E
rs11547464                            A                R142H
rs1110400                            C                I155T
rs1805007                            T                R151C
rs1805008                            T                R160W
i3002507 [rs1805009]            C                D294H

http://snpedia.com/index.php/Redheads (http://snpedia.com/index.php/Redheads)


I stand by what I wrote elsewhere about Scandinavians and Germans not being known for an abundance of red hair. I have not read that Roryvik study mentioned earlier, so I don't know which SNP or SNPs associated with red hair it tested. I recall reading that different MC1R variants are responsible for red hair in different places, so comparing the POBI stats to Roryvik might be like comparing pumpkins to oranges (I tried to stick with an orange-colored simile).

I suspect the MC1R variant tested by POBI was rs1805008, also known as R160W or Arg160Trp.

SNPedia says this about it:

Quote

rs1805008, known as Arg160Trp or R160W; associated with red hair in an Irish population [PMID 9665397]


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: inver2b1 on September 13, 2012, 04:24:15 PM
Just a quick re-cap:
I read somewhere that a later PoBI map contained far more symbols/colour combinations than the one many of us have seen. The original Welsh orange was broken into two clusters in the country: one being light purple crosses; the other, light yellow. Both found in Dyfed.
The light purple was also in north east Ireland & southern Scotland.
Southern Scotland also had white triangles & light blue circles.

That was a while ago, so it may be there are yet more combinations to be found on the final product.

Bob


I think one color/shape to represent certian regions is a bit too general, would a better approach be somethign liek a pie chard showing frequencies of components in regions?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 14, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
Just a quick re-cap:
I read somewhere that a later PoBI map contained far more symbols/colour combinations than the one many of us have seen. The original Welsh orange was broken into two clusters in the country: one being light purple crosses; the other, light yellow. Both found in Dyfed.
The light purple was also in north east Ireland & southern Scotland.
Southern Scotland also had white triangles & light blue circles.

That was a while ago, so it may be there are yet more combinations to be found on the final product.

Bob


I think one color/shape to represent certian regions is a bit too general, would a better approach be somethign liek a pie chard showing frequencies of components in regions?

I think the colours just show that people within that cluster are genetically closer to each other than to other clusters. The geographic spread makes sense when you consider that POBI took rural samples where populations are usually more stable.

My speculation on the clusters is simply based on what I know about the history of different regions in Britain.

For instance, I have a personal interest in North Wales so I am not surprised to see a distinctive cluster there given what we know about the history. Although, I think Anglesey was over sampled in this project and Powys totally ignored. I would like to have seen more samples in Conwy and Gwynedd.






Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on September 16, 2012, 01:23:04 AM
"Happy Roodharigendag (that's Redhead Day in Dutch). It's a summer festival that takes place the first weekend in September in the Netherlands. This year, nearly 5,000 people gathered to celebrate all things fiery red, especially this unique phenotype."

Here is an interesting article on red heads and genetics.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/12/redhead-genetics-evolution-extinction_n_1865516.html?utm_hp_ref=tw





Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 16, 2012, 05:05:54 AM
Changing tack slightly, I wonder if the Welsh are under-represented on modern databases such as ftdna and ysearch?

I mean, there is an obvious American interest in Ireland given the large scale Irish emigration in the 19th century. Before that you had the Scots-Irish/Borderers who left plenty of descendants in modern America. And of course the English were well represented in the early settlement of North America.

In Scotland the Highland Clearances forced many Gaelic speakers to leave Scotland and emigrate to Canada, Australia and New Zealand and this can partly explain the decline in Scottish Gaelic.

The Welsh however were different and did not emigrate to the same extent as other Isles based people. The Welsh largely stayed put and this partly explains the survival of the Welsh language compared to other Celtic countries.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2012, 05:26:41 AM
Changing tack slightly, I wonder if the Welsh are under-represented on modern databases such as ftdna and ysearch?

I mean, there is an obvious American interest in Ireland given the large scale Irish emigration in the 19th century. Before that you had the Scots-Irish/Borderers who left plenty of descendants in modern America. And of course the English were well represented in the early settlement of North America.

In Scotland the Highland Clearances forced many Gaelic speakers to leave Scotland and emigrate to Canada, Australia and New Zealand and this can partly explain the decline in Scottish Gaelic.

The Welsh however were different and did not emigrate to the same extent as other Isles based people. The Welsh largely stayed put and this partly explains the survival of the Welsh language compared to other Celtic countries.

That's a good question. It seems to me there was quite a bit of Welsh emigration to North America, although I am not sure of the exact extent of it. I know the Welsh were an important element in the foundation and early settlement of the state of Pennsylvania, many of them settling in the so-called "Welsh Tract" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Tract).

It seems to me there are quite a lot of people with Welsh surnames in the USA. I know Wikipedia is not always reliable, but here is what this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_American) says about Welsh surnames in the USA:

Quote
The proportion of the population with a name of Welsh origin ranges from 9.5% in South Carolina to 1.1% in North Dakota. Typically names of Welsh origin are concentrated in the mid Atlantic states, the Carolinas, Georgia and Alabama and in Appalachia, West Virginia and Tennessee. By contrast there are relatively fewer Welsh names in New England, the northern mid West, and the South West.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 16, 2012, 05:52:18 AM
Changing tack slightly, I wonder if the Welsh are under-represented on modern databases such as ftdna and ysearch?

I mean, there is an obvious American interest in Ireland given the large scale Irish emigration in the 19th century. Before that you had the Scots-Irish/Borderers who left plenty of descendants in modern America. And of course the English were well represented in the early settlement of North America.

In Scotland the Highland Clearances forced many Gaelic speakers to leave Scotland and emigrate to Canada, Australia and New Zealand and this can partly explain the decline in Scottish Gaelic.

The Welsh however were different and did not emigrate to the same extent as other Isles based people. The Welsh largely stayed put and this partly explains the survival of the Welsh language compared to other Celtic countries.

That's a good question. It seems to me there was quite a bit of Welsh emigration to North America, although I am not sure of the exact extent of it. I know the Welsh were an important element in the foundation and early settlement of the state of Pennsylvania, many of them settling in the so-called "Welsh Tract" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Tract).

It seems to me there are quite a lot of people with Welsh surnames in the USA. I know Wikipedia is not always reliable, but here is what this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_American) says about Welsh surnames in the USA:

Quote
The proportion of the population with a name of Welsh origin ranges from 9.5% in South Carolina to 1.1% in North Dakota. Typically names of Welsh origin are concentrated in the mid Atlantic states, the Carolinas, Georgia and Alabama and in Appalachia, West Virginia and Tennessee. By contrast there are relatively fewer Welsh names in New England, the northern mid West, and the South West.


That's right. I'd read about the Welsh in Pennsylvania and the Welsh Quaker emigration due to persecution.

Interesting thing about wikipedia is that African Americans seem to have a large proportion of Welsh surnames.

I have also read that from the 1500s onwards, following the accession of Henry Tudor, many Welsh people moved to London. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/Welshlondon.html (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/Welshlondon.html)

I also think that some common Welsh surnames such as Jones, Williams, Thomas, Evans, etc have been in England for a long time.




Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 16, 2012, 05:53:57 AM
I would say 'yes', Avalon. The Welsh are under-represented. I think it's a little sad that we who live in Britain & Ireland often don't feel the need to test. When I try to persuade folk to go the DNA route, they say 'No point, we've always lived here!'  
It's imperative to get more Welsh people testing, plus folk with a lineage strongly linked to the remoter parts of Cumbria & other western English counties.
The Border clearances, plus earlier 'removal' of reiving families, has resulted in huge interest in DNA testing from those now in N. America, in particular. The annual Armstrong gather sees folk from all corners of the world meeting on the Borders. They are extremely keen on reconnecting with their ancient homeland. Due to the Irish records' fire, many have no possibility of tracing ancestors before the early 1800s.
On the surface, it seems the Welsh are apathetic compared to the Irish, but I'd assume this is because the need to connect to their ancient  homeland doesn't need bolstering as they live in it!
Cheers,
Bob
PS Obviously there was Welsh emigration, but not to the same degree as Scots & irish.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 16, 2012, 06:36:46 AM
I'm not trying at all to inject politics into this thread, but Ann Romney, the wife of Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, was originally Ann Davies and is the daughter of a Welsh immigrant, Edward R. Davies, from Caerau.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 16, 2012, 06:42:01 AM
I would say 'yes', Avalon. The Welsh are under-represented. I think it's a little sad that we who live in Britain & Ireland often don't feel the need to test. When I try to persuade folk to go the DNA route, they say 'No point, we've always lived here!'  
It's imperative to get more Welsh people testing, plus folk with a lineage strongly linked to the remoter parts of Cumbria & other western English counties.
The Border clearances, plus earlier 'removal' of reiving families, has resulted in huge interest in DNA testing from those now in N. America, in particular. The annual Armstrong gather sees folk from all corners of the world meeting on the Borders. They are extremely keen on reconnecting with their ancient homeland. Due to the Irish records' fire, many have no possibility of tracing ancestors before the early 1800s.
On the surface, it seems the Welsh are apathetic compared to the Irish, but I'd assume this is because the need to connect to their ancient  homeland doesn't need bolstering as they live in it!
Cheers,
Bob
PS Obviously there was Welsh emigration, but not to the same degree as Scots & irish.

All good points. We also have recent y-DNA studies but for some reason Anglesey is often sampled for North Wales. That's fine, but I would like to see more sampling from other parts of Wales.

As for the databases, there is a greater American interest in DNA testing which is why we see more Irish, Scottish and English references.





Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on September 18, 2012, 03:45:56 AM
My morning (British) newspaper claims he will be buried in Leicester Cathedral, Heber. I really hope they extract some Y-DNA, if possible. I don't think they realise the media coverage they'd benefit from with potential male descendants stepping forward - far more so than an mtDNA link.
Bob

"Mitochondrial DNA tests are about to be carried out on the skeleton, unearthed by a team from Leicester University and the Richard III Society. If the remains prove to be those of the long lost monarch, the next question will be: what to do with them?"

"Although entitled to be buried at Westminster Abbey alongside other kings and queens of England, he announced his intention to be buried at York, and in 1483 set in motion plans for a new chantry chapel at York Minster."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/the-northerner/2012/sep/18/blogpost-richard-lll-york-minster-leicester-university-bosworth-archaeology


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on September 24, 2012, 10:54:12 AM
I asked the POBI team when we could expect to see the detailed paper and got the following reply.
That means we should get the Geno 2.0 report first. Two detailed reports just in time for Christmas. Great.

"Many thanks for your interest in our project.  I'm afraid that I don't have a date for publication at the moment.  We are in the process of sorting out some final analyses before  we submit the paper but once it has been accepted and is available, we will put a copy up on our website.  My guess is that it will be a couple of months at least."


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on September 24, 2012, 11:34:00 AM
That's disappointing, Heber. However, thanks for the info. I wonder if they've realised justy how complex the analysis of British Isles DNA can be?
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Heber on September 26, 2012, 10:06:28 PM
Bob,

Seventh of November is the date of the ASHG conference.

http://abstracts.ashg.org/cgi-bin/2012/ashg12s?abst=British%20Isles&sort=ptimes&sbutton=Detail&absno=120123689&sid=665918

This event is like a candy store of interesting papers. I look forward to the new Ancestry Painting 2.0 from 23andme with 20 reference populations and will be interested to see the European reference populations they use. We appear to be entering into a new era of population genetics.

The POBI paper will be presented in the same conference. This is a follow up from the Summer exhibition in the Royal Academy. Hopefully this time we will get the detailed Genetic Atlas of Britain. I am participating in the Irish DNA Atlas project so I will be interested in eventually comparing results when that study is published. What is interesting is they have compared the results to reference European populations. Which populations remains to be seen.
"Thus we can observe the relative contribution (under our model) of each of these European populations to the genomes of samples in different regions of Britain."

People of the British Isles: An analysis of the genetic contributions of European populations to a UK control population. S. Leslie1, B. Winney2, G. Hellenthal3, S. Myers4, P. Donnelly3, W. Bodmer2 1) Statistical Genetics, Murdoch Childrens Research Institute, Melbourne, Australia; 2) Department of Oncology, University of Oxford, UK; 3) The Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics, University of Oxford, UK; 4) Department of Statistics, University of Oxford, UK.

There is much interest in fine scale population structure in the UK, as a signature of historical migration events and because of the effect population structure may have on disease association studies. Population structure appears to have a minor impact on the current generation of genome-wide association studies, but will probably be important for the next generation of studies seeking associations to rare variants. Furthermore there is great interest in understanding where the British people came from. Thus far genetic studies have been limited to a small number of markers or to samples not collected to specifically address these questions. A natural method for understanding population structure is to control and document carefully the provenance of samples. We describe the collection of a cohort of rural UK samples (The People of the British Isles), aimed at providing a well-characterised UK control population. This will be a resource for research community as well as providing fine-scale genetic information on the history of the British. Using a novel clustering algorithm, approximately 2000 samples were clustered purely as a function of genetic similarity, without reference to their known sampling locations. When each individual is plotted on a UK map, there is a striking association between inferred clusters and geography, reflecting to a major extent the known history of the British peoples. A similar analysis is performed on samples from different parts of Europe. Using the European samples as ‘source populations’ we apply a novel algorithm to determine the proportion of the genomes within each of the derived British clusters that are most closely related to each of the source populations. Thus we can observe the relative contribution (under our model) of each of these European populations to the genomes of samples in different regions of Britain. Our results strikingly reflect much of the known historical and archaeological record while raising some important questions and perhaps answering others. We believe this is the first detailed analysis of very fine-scale genetic structure and its origin in a population of very similar humans. This has been achieved through both a careful sampling strategy and an approach to analysis that accounts for linkage disequilibrium.

You may contact the first author (during and after the meeting) at stephen.leslie@mcri.edu.au


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: SEJJ on September 28, 2012, 12:16:16 PM
Here is a more recent map of red hair in Europe by Maciamo of Eupedia:
(http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/red_hair_map_europe.jpg)

Whatever you think of the article, the map itself is pretty good. I'm surprised a little at the extent of it on the continent. Some of it is tantalizing though as now it best matches Celtic speakers, what do you think the situation would have looked like 2,000 or 3,000 years ago?



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 28, 2012, 04:23:12 PM
Here is a more recent map of red hair in Europe by Maciamo of Eupedia:
(http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/red_hair_map_europe.jpg)

Whatever you think of the article, the map itself is pretty good. I'm surprised a little at the extent of it on the continent. Some of it is tantalizing though as now it best matches Celtic speakers, what do you think the situation would have looked like 2,000 or 3,000 years ago?



Could have been greater for the simple reason that people lived in tribes and there may have been a far higher chance of both parents carrying the gene!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2012, 06:49:10 PM
I like the map, but the shading is counter intuitive. He has the lighter shades representing higher frequencies and the darker representing lower frequencies. It's usually the other way around.

I'm posting it again with Image Shack so that you can click on it and see a larger image. I'm also posting Maciamo's L21 map for grins.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img266/2954/redhairmapeurope.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/266/redhairmapeurope.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img98/7587/haplogroupr1bl21.th.gif) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/98/haplogroupr1bl21.gif/)



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2012, 07:27:12 PM
I saw in the comments section below Maciamo's article references to a study on hair color, but all I could see were some frequency pages. There was no reference to the name of the actual study or a link to it.

Anyone know which study Maciamo based this map on?

(http://imageshack.us/a/img266/2954/redhairmapeurope.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/266/redhairmapeurope.jpg/)


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: A.D. on September 28, 2012, 09:45:51 PM
I heard some years ago that the red-haired population of Britian could have been as high as 24% in pre-Roman times and that the decrease was down to the Romans thinking it was 'unlucky'. Sounds too high but it could have been alot higher than today. If 24% of people had red-hair then the gene must have been present in most of the population.

Note: Empty space removed by moderator. Content unaltered. - rms2


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: SEJJ on September 28, 2012, 10:48:26 PM
I heard some years ago that the red-haired population of Britian could have been as high as 24% in pre-Roman times and that the decrease was down to the Romans thinking it was 'unlucky'. Sounds too high but it could have been alot higher than today. If 24% of people had red-hair then the gene must have been present in most of the population.


That's a very interesting idea - It sounds plausible. Especially given that at least in recent centuries people have become much more mixed, and as a result recessive genes have likely become more rare, or at least they manifest more rarely in red hair?I suppose it would certainly give more credence to ancient accounts of red haired Celts and Germans, i mean the 5-10% or 10% plus now is a lot for someone observing from the perspective of southern Europe, but if it  was as high as 24% in some areas it must have seemed almost like the defining features for those tribes, and hence partly why it was commented upon so readily.

I guess family groups might come into account too - If you were observing a few families with a tendency for red hair above the average, that would also be pretty striking, and the number of redheads might of course appear to be far above the actual average.
@rms2: Yeah, the correlation with L21 is quite striking indeed. It definitely seems to be an R1b thing in any case - It seems to be primarily a Northern Western European thing (With exception of course as obviously shown on the map), which is pretty much what R1b-L21 seems to be.

Interesting stuff.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Bren123 on September 29, 2012, 06:03:45 AM
I heard some years ago that the red-haired population of Britian could have been as high as 24% in pre-Roman times and that the decrease was down to the Romans thinking it was 'unlucky'. Sounds too high but it could have been alot higher than today. If 24% of people had red-hair then the gene must have been present in most of the population.

Note: Empty space removed by moderator. Content unaltered. - rms2

Well a large percentage of the Iirish ,Welsh and Scotish population carry the gene today so  it is certainly plausable that in the pre roman period that a lot more people carried that gene!


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: stoneman on September 29, 2012, 12:27:13 PM
Are you saying that only L21 can be red haired?I know some U106 .


I heard some years ago that the red-haired population of Britian could have been as high as 24% in pre-Roman times and that the decrease was down to the Romans thinking it was 'unlucky'. Sounds too high but it could have been alot higher than today. If 24% of people had red-hair then the gene must have been present in most of the population.


That's a very interesting idea - It sounds plausible. Especially given that at least in recent centuries people have become much more mixed, and as a result recessive genes have likely become more rare, or at least they manifest more rarely in red hair?I suppose it would certainly give more credence to ancient accounts of red haired Celts and Germans, i mean the 5-10% or 10% plus now is a lot for someone observing from the perspective of southern Europe, but if it  was as high as 24% in some areas it must have seemed almost like the defining features for those tribes, and hence partly why it was commented upon so readily.

I guess family groups might come into account too - If you were observing a few families with a tendency for red hair above the average, that would also be pretty striking, and the number of redheads might of course appear to be far above the actual average.
@rms2: Yeah, the correlation with L21 is quite striking indeed. It definitely seems to be an R1b thing in any case - It seems to be primarily a Northern Western European thing (With exception of course as obviously shown on the map), which is pretty much what R1b-L21 seems to be.

Interesting stuff.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 29, 2012, 12:43:14 PM
Anyone can have red hair. The trait is autosomal and thus independent of y-dna or mtDNA.

It is interesting that some of the places with the highest frequency of red hair also have a high frequency of L21, but there is no way really to prove a connection between the two. For one thing, every RHC (Red Hair Color) variant is recessive, meaning you have to inherit it from both your mom and your dad in order to have red hair.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: stoneman on September 29, 2012, 02:22:52 PM
Is there a red hair gene that is specific to Ireland?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: SEJJ on September 29, 2012, 02:48:12 PM
Are you saying that only L21 can be red haired?I know some U106 .


I heard some years ago that the red-haired population of Britian could have been as high as 24% in pre-Roman times and that the decrease was down to the Romans thinking it was 'unlucky'. Sounds too high but it could have been alot higher than today. If 24% of people had red-hair then the gene must have been present in most of the population.


That's a very interesting idea - It sounds plausible. Especially given that at least in recent centuries people have become much more mixed, and as a result recessive genes have likely become more rare, or at least they manifest more rarely in red hair?I suppose it would certainly give more credence to ancient accounts of red haired Celts and Germans, i mean the 5-10% or 10% plus now is a lot for someone observing from the perspective of southern Europe, but if it  was as high as 24% in some areas it must have seemed almost like the defining features for those tribes, and hence partly why it was commented upon so readily.

I guess family groups might come into account too - If you were observing a few families with a tendency for red hair above the average, that would also be pretty striking, and the number of redheads might of course appear to be far above the actual average.
@rms2: Yeah, the correlation with L21 is quite striking indeed. It definitely seems to be an R1b thing in any case - It seems to be primarily a Northern Western European thing (With exception of course as obviously shown on the map), which is pretty much what R1b-L21 seems to be.

Interesting stuff.


Nope, actually it's quite interesting on that map that both the Netherlands and a small part of Denmark have slightly high frequencies - If we include Britain and Ireland too there is probably a correlation with R1b-U106 as well, although it seems much weaker. L21 just fits it very well.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 29, 2012, 06:37:25 PM
I saw in the comments section below Maciamo's article references to a study on hair color, but all I could see were some frequency pages. There was no reference to the name of the actual study or a link to it.

Anyone know which study Maciamo based this map on?

(http://imageshack.us/a/img266/2954/redhairmapeurope.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/266/redhairmapeurope.jpg/)

I dont know the origin of the map but it is the best one I have ever seen for corresponding with other studies and also personal observation.  The isles distrubtion is incredibly Celtic.  In Ireland the peak is almost identical of 'the great Irishry' of Ulster and north Connaught where the Gaelic Irish remained independent of Norman/English control and settlement the longest.

I think that map kind of demonstrates its the most far flung margins of northern Europe that have more red hair and this cuts right across the Celtic-Germanic divide and almost certainly pre-dates such a division.  I am fairly convinced its a Mesolithic trait although clealry some of these areas also supplied later movements.  Elevated red hair actually to some extent coincides with the areas where farming arrived after 4200BC (i.e. late).


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: alan trowel hands. on September 29, 2012, 06:43:03 PM
Is there a red hair gene that is specific to Ireland?

No but I once read that red hair among Swedes was found to often be a different marker from that in the west.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: SEJJ on September 29, 2012, 07:15:10 PM
I saw in the comments section below Maciamo's article references to a study on hair color, but all I could see were some frequency pages. There was no reference to the name of the actual study or a link to it.

Anyone know which study Maciamo based this map on?

(http://imageshack.us/a/img266/2954/redhairmapeurope.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/266/redhairmapeurope.jpg/)

I dont know the origin of the map but it is the best one I have ever seen for corresponding with other studies and also personal observation.  The isles distrubtion is incredibly Celtic.  In Ireland the peak is almost identical of 'the great Irishry' of Ulster and north Connaught where the Gaelic Irish remained independent of Norman/English control and settlement the longest.

I think that map kind of demonstrates its the most far flung margins of northern Europe that have more red hair and this cuts right across the Celtic-Germanic divide and almost certainly pre-dates such a division.  I am fairly convinced its a Mesolithic trait although clealry some of these areas also supplied later movements.  Elevated red hair actually to some extent coincides with the areas where farming arrived after 4200BC (i.e. late).

Those are some interesting observations.  I suppose if it is a Mesolithic trait as you suppose we should be looking at (in terms of Y-DNA) the population absorbed by the  R1b/R1b-L21 lot? So maybe some forms of I?


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 29, 2012, 08:21:48 PM
Is there a red hair gene that is specific to Ireland?

No but I once read that red hair among Swedes was found to often be a different marker from that in the west.

Actually, SNPedia says this about rs1805008 (aka Arg160Trp or R160W):

Quote

rs1805008, known as Arg160Trp or R160W; associated with red hair in an Irish population [PMID 9665397]

Rs1805008 is one of the SNPs tested by FTDNA's Family Finder. I have a "TC" there, which means I carry the red hair variant there but in a recessive state. The T is the nucleotide that imparts red hair, but you have to have two copies of it. Since I only have one T there, I don't have red hair myself, but I can pass it down. My youngest daughter has red hair.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 30, 2012, 05:47:17 AM
I heard some years ago that the red-haired population of Britian could have been as high as 24% in pre-Roman times and that the decrease was down to the Romans thinking it was 'unlucky'. Sounds too high but it could have been alot higher than today. If 24% of people had red-hair then the gene must have been present in most of the population.

Note: Empty space removed by moderator. Content unaltered. - rms2

We can only really speculate as to the hair colour in pre-Roman times. Nobody recorded such information so I would like to know how they arrived at 24%?

My own view is that the Celts of Britain were a predominantly brunet haired people and that red hair was a substantial minority.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 30, 2012, 06:13:52 AM
It is a nice map but I would like to know the source used to to create it? Which hair colour studies were used?

It doesn't surprise me to see elavated levels of red hair in Brittany and Belgium/Holland as I have met quite a few red heads from the Low Countries.

However, the map is misleading with respect to red hair in Wales as it doesn't recognise regional differences within Wales. I have said it before but I am only aware of two people who have conducted surveys of hair colour in Wales - Beddoe in 19C and Fleure/Davies/James in the 20C.

Fleure in the 1910s and 1930s observed that overall Wales had 6.2% red hair, although he did exclude industrial SE Wales for obvious reasons. Beddoe observed higher red hair levels in Abergavenney (women) 10%,  Taff Vale (women) 9% and Carmarthen 7.6%. All of these places are in South Wales which means that red hair is more common in South Wales than in the north.

Anglesey was 7% red hair but the rest of North Wales was between 3-6%. My ancestral homeland of Gwynedd has the lowest recorded levels of red hair in Wales at 3-4.4% according to Fleure/Davies.





Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 30, 2012, 07:26:19 AM
This BBC link quotes Prof Donelly who is involved in the POBI project.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18489735 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18489735)

Some of his quotes support what I have said about the Welsh in another thread. "Welsh Uniqueness."

Quote
Prof Donnelly said: "People from Wales are genetically relatively distinct, they look different genetically from much of the rest of mainland Britain, and actually people in north Wales look relatively distinct from people in south Wales."

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have "fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

"And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago".

Not sure I agree with the ice age stuff but the links to Ireland and Atlantic France make sense to me.

It looks like he's suggesting the North Welsh are closer to the Irish but the South Welsh closer to France (maybe Brittany?).

Quote
"In north Wales, there has been relative isolation because people moved less because of geographical barriers," Prof Donnelly said

Exactly what I said. I think the POBI project with its autosomal DNA could be quite revealing as I believe there is far too  much focus on Y-DNA on this forum. Y-DNA only tells part of the story and even then there are so many difficulties in using modern Y-DNA to infer ancient movements of people.






Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: SEJJ on September 30, 2012, 08:04:07 AM
This BBC link quotes Prof Donelly who is involved in the POBI project.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18489735 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18489735)

Some of his quotes support what I have said about the Welsh in another thread. "Welsh Uniqueness."

Quote
Prof Donnelly said: "People from Wales are genetically relatively distinct, they look different genetically from much of the rest of mainland Britain, and actually people in north Wales look relatively distinct from people in south Wales."

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have "fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

"And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago".

Not sure I agree with the ice age stuff but the links to Ireland and Atlantic France make sense to me.

It looks like he's suggesting the North Welsh are closer to the Irish but the South Welsh closer to France (maybe Brittany?).

Quote
"In north Wales, there has been relative isolation because people moved less because of geographical barriers," Prof Donnelly said

Exactly what I said. I think the POBI project with its autosomal DNA could be quite revealing as I believe there is far too  much focus on Y-DNA on this forum. Y-DNA only tells part of the story and even then there are so many difficulties in using modern Y-DNA to infer ancient movements of people.


Thanks for the link and information. Yeah i'm really looking forward to more from the POBI project. I agree that y-DNA is focused on too much, Autosomal genetics seems to give a much better view of how populations relate to each other, although i think y-DNA is important for time-scales. I suppose with Autosomal genetics you can tell that groups A & B are similar or dissimilar, but y-DNA might give you clues as to why and when. So i think the POBI's approach of using them in conjunction is excellent.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: razyn on September 30, 2012, 08:34:02 AM
The name of the forum is R1b and subclades.  This particular thread ranges more widely, as do others, but that doesn't mean the forum is wrong to focus on its announced topic.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 30, 2012, 09:49:14 AM
The name of the forum is R1b and subclades.  This particular thread ranges more widely, as do others, but that doesn't mean the forum is wrong to focus on its announced topic.

Fair enough, I shouldn't have specified this forum. I should have said that across genetic genealogy there is too much focus on Y-DNA and not enough on mtDNA.

And this thread should probably be in general discussion but that's not my decision.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on September 30, 2012, 09:55:38 AM
This BBC link quotes Prof Donelly who is involved in the POBI project.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18489735 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18489735)

Some of his quotes support what I have said about the Welsh in another thread. "Welsh Uniqueness."

Quote
Prof Donnelly said: "People from Wales are genetically relatively distinct, they look different genetically from much of the rest of mainland Britain, and actually people in north Wales look relatively distinct from people in south Wales."

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have "fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

"And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago".

Not sure I agree with the ice age stuff but the links to Ireland and Atlantic France make sense to me.

It looks like he's suggesting the North Welsh are closer to the Irish but the South Welsh closer to France (maybe Brittany?).

Quote
"In north Wales, there has been relative isolation because people moved less because of geographical barriers," Prof Donnelly said

Exactly what I said. I think the POBI project with its autosomal DNA could be quite revealing as I believe there is far too  much focus on Y-DNA on this forum. Y-DNA only tells part of the story and even then there are so many difficulties in using modern Y-DNA to infer ancient movements of people.


Thanks for the link and information. Yeah i'm really looking forward to more from the POBI project. I agree that y-DNA is focused on too much, Autosomal genetics seems to give a much better view of how populations relate to each other, although i think y-DNA is important for time-scales. I suppose with Autosomal genetics you can tell that groups A & B are similar or dissimilar, but y-DNA might give you clues as to why and when. So i think the POBI's approach of using them in conjunction is excellent.

The problem with Y-DNA is that even the experts can't agree on time scales. Stephen Oppenheimer was once an "expert" and he said R1b had been in Britain for 12,000 years but in recent years other experts and hobbyists on the internet have said R1b is much younger but even they can't agree on precise dates.

Five years from now the experts will probably be saying something completely different.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: SEJJ on September 30, 2012, 10:30:23 AM
This BBC link quotes Prof Donelly who is involved in the POBI project.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18489735 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18489735)

Some of his quotes support what I have said about the Welsh in another thread. "Welsh Uniqueness."

Quote
Prof Donnelly said: "People from Wales are genetically relatively distinct, they look different genetically from much of the rest of mainland Britain, and actually people in north Wales look relatively distinct from people in south Wales."

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have "fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

"And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago".

Not sure I agree with the ice age stuff but the links to Ireland and Atlantic France make sense to me.

It looks like he's suggesting the North Welsh are closer to the Irish but the South Welsh closer to France (maybe Brittany?).

Quote
"In north Wales, there has been relative isolation because people moved less because of geographical barriers," Prof Donnelly said

Exactly what I said. I think the POBI project with its autosomal DNA could be quite revealing as I believe there is far too  much focus on Y-DNA on this forum. Y-DNA only tells part of the story and even then there are so many difficulties in using modern Y-DNA to infer ancient movements of people.


Thanks for the link and information. Yeah i'm really looking forward to more from the POBI project. I agree that y-DNA is focused on too much, Autosomal genetics seems to give a much better view of how populations relate to each other, although i think y-DNA is important for time-scales. I suppose with Autosomal genetics you can tell that groups A & B are similar or dissimilar, but y-DNA might give you clues as to why and when. So i think the POBI's approach of using them in conjunction is excellent.

The problem with Y-DNA is that even the experts can't agree on time scales. Stephen Oppenheimer was once an "expert" and he said R1b had been in Britain for 12,000 years but in recent years other experts and hobbyists on the internet have said R1b is much younger but even they can't agree on precise dates.

Five years from now the experts will probably be saying something completely different.

That is true, but at least it gives people the potential to accurately date things from a genetic point of view - Even if we are wrong at the moment, it's likely that someone will come close to the correct answer at some point soon. But a lot of the age calculations going on in this forum are very interesting. I admit i don't know very much at all about the technical side of it but it seems that it is well based.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 30, 2012, 11:19:47 AM
The problem with Y-DNA is that even the experts can't agree on time scales. Stephen Oppenheimer was once an "expert" and he said R1b had been in Britain for 12,000 years but in recent years other experts and hobbyists on the internet have said R1b is much younger but even they can't agree on precise dates.

Five years from now the experts will probably be saying something completely different.

I'm not sure who considered who an expert but I only considered Stephen Oppenheimer an author with a paediatrician background.  A better example of an expert with a different point of view might be Spencer Wells who is a true population geneticist. I suspect though that he has always left enough vagueness in his conclusions that he can adjust. It'll be interesting to see if he alters his perspective on R1b after seeing results from Geno 2.0 testing.

Regardless, there may always be some disagreement. Others have noted on this forum that old scientific hypotheses that are wrong oftentimes don't die until their originators die. All the disagreement doesn't mean someone doesn't already have it right.  Precision is a relative term but I wouldn't expect too much precision out of genetic time calculations based on average mutation rates.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: rms2 on September 30, 2012, 03:24:31 PM
It is a nice map but I would like to know the source used to to create it? Which hair colour studies were used?

. . .


Those are excellent questions. I asked the same thing several posts back (at the top of the page, as a matter of fact).

I would like to see the study or studies myself.

I would be curious to see which MC1R RHC variants are at work in the various regions to produce red hair. Apparently red hair in one place can be the product of a different RHC variant from that which produces red hair in another place. It would also be interesting to see which variants are prevalent in which parts of the British Isles or, if there is a mix, what the relative proportions are.



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on October 01, 2012, 03:35:01 AM
It is a nice map but I would like to know the source used to to create it? Which hair colour studies were used?

. . .


Those are excellent questions. I asked the same thing several posts back (at the top of the page, as a matter of fact).

I would like to see the study or studies myself.

I would be curious to see which MC1R RHC variants are at work in the various regions to produce red hair. Apparently red hair in one place can be the product of a different RHC variant from that which produces red hair in another place. It would also be interesting to see which variants are prevalent in which parts of the British Isles or, if there is a mix, what the relative proportions are.



Yes, it would be useful to have more genetic studies on this topic. We should also remember that red hair comes in a variety of shades - you can have a light, strawberry blond red as well as a darker, brownier red hair.

Red hair does seem to be a trait particularly associated with the fringes of NW Europe and as alantrowel has said it could well have been hovering around there since the mesolithic.


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on October 01, 2012, 04:16:20 AM
The problem with Y-DNA is that even the experts can't agree on time scales. Stephen Oppenheimer was once an "expert" and he said R1b had been in Britain for 12,000 years but in recent years other experts and hobbyists on the internet have said R1b is much younger but even they can't agree on precise dates.

Five years from now the experts will probably be saying something completely different.

I'm not sure who considered who an expert but I only considered Stephen Oppenheimer an author with a paediatrician background.  A better example of an expert with a different point of view might be Spencer Wells who is a true population geneticist. I suspect though that he has always left enough vagueness in his conclusions that he can adjust. It'll be interesting to see if he alters his perspective on R1b after seeing results from Geno 2.0 testing.

Regardless, there may always be some disagreement. Others have noted on this forum that old scientific hypotheses that are wrong oftentimes don't die until their originators die. All the disagreement doesn't mean someone doesn't already have it right.  Precision is a relative term but I wouldn't expect too much precision out of genetic time calculations based on average mutation rates.

As I see it population genetics is still quite a young science and I think there is a way to go before we get conclusive answers about the precise origins of different people. History and archaeology have been studied for a long time so we should give them some credence too. I understand that Oppenheimer was criticised for his use of mutation rates and too few STR markers.

I'm still trying to get my head round mutation rates, which seem key to the whole question. It all looks very complicated - some STR markers mutate at different rates, you have back mutations and then two step mutations. And all this is based on genealogical surname projects where STR mutations can be observed over a family pedigree back to a known common ancestor.

I must find out what "evolutionary" mutation rates are and also how many STR markers are there on the Y-chromosome. Are we only testing a small proportion of the entire Y chromosome?



Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 01, 2012, 12:54:50 PM
I'm still trying to get my head round mutation rates, which seem key to the whole question. It all looks very complicated - some STR markers mutate at different rates, you have back mutations and then two step mutations. And all this is based on genealogical surname projects where STR mutations can be observed over a family pedigree back to a known common ancestor.

I must find out what "evolutionary" mutation rates are and also how many STR markers are there on the Y-chromosome. Are we only testing a small proportion of the entire Y chromosome?

Join the crew. It's an area with a lot of contention. This has probably been hit on multiple threads, but dedicates to STRs, rates, etc. is this one:
http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10513.0 (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10513.0)


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on October 02, 2012, 02:45:57 AM
'The Story of Wales' is on British TV tonight (BBC2 7pm). I think it mentions ancient hill forts & early mining.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: Castlebob on October 03, 2012, 02:29:24 AM
John T Koch was on the programme & briefly explained his Celts & the Atlantic trade routes theory.
An interesting programme, but as ever, more detail would have improved it. However, I'm aware that producers have to consider the greater audience.
Bob


Title: Re: Ancient Welsh Query
Post by: avalon on October 03, 2012, 03:50:13 AM
John T Koch was on the programme & briefly explained his Celts & the Atlantic trade routes theory.
An interesting programme, but as ever, more detail would have improved it. However, I'm aware that producers have to consider the greater audience.
Bob

Thanks for the heads up.

Huw Edwards is a good presenter but as you said this programme is aimed at a general audience and there wasn't enough coverage of the Neolithic in this episode.

I must admit I need to read more of Koch and Cunliffe because I like the idea of "Celts from the West." It feels right to me.