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Title: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 28, 2012, 02:02:51 PM
Here is an update on the DF49+ DF23- people. The ones in early branches way upstream of M222 (the NW Irish.)

I see RMS recruited the other McElrea relatives and is defaulting to the DF49* status, which makes sense.

We also have Wilson, so we should look at his variety, 25911, a little closer.

We have the Hopkins/McCabe variety too, 49-1226, and they have L302 and L319.1 within their ranks, although the positioning is to be determined.


f59601   Wilson   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   25911   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan (? or Co. Leitrim)
f246749   McElrea   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49 - unassigned   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dunmullen
f223687   McElrea   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49 - unassigned   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dunmullen
f216031   McElrea   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49 - unassigned   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Omagh, Parish of Cappagh
f129036   Harrison   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49-1226   England, North West, Cheshire
f33932   Hopkins   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49-1226   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Derrylahan
f19499   Hopkins   R-L21/DF13/DF49   49-1226   zzCountry


What about these three Riddle's?  I had them in a probable DF23+ variety since they have high 481 values.

f131386   Riddle   zzL21predicted   49 -1214
f171267   Riddle   zzL21predicted   49 -1214
f207371   Riddle   zzL21predicted   49 -1214


Their GDs with the McElrea's are pretty wide but I noticed they have this STR signature in common with the McElrea's.
385b=15 389ii-i=17 458<=16 456<=15 413a<=22





Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: eochaidh on August 28, 2012, 04:56:39 PM
Wouldn't the French Heritage DNA Project be the best bet to find DF49 prospects? There are French DF23+ samples, so DF49+, DF23- should be French, correct?


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 28, 2012, 11:30:54 PM
Wouldn't the French Heritage DNA Project be the best bet to find DF49 prospects? There are French DF23+ samples, so DF49+, DF23- should be French, correct?

Is that a sincere question?  We already know we have a lot of DF23+ M222- people from Wales (& Britain in general), Ireland and France. DF49+ DF23- people could easily be from the vicinity.

I don't think we can make generalizations (EDIT: with so little data) about haplogroup findings by geographies so close to each other as Britain and France.

This is why we have to test, to find out who is where.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: eochaidh on August 29, 2012, 08:17:32 AM
It was a sincere question and suggestion. How would the DF23, M222- people have made it to France from the Isles? I started a thread about DF23, M222- from SW Britain accounting for some of the French results, but I don't believe it was well received. This has never been accepted logic. On the other hand, a subclade moving from France to the Isles is very much accepted. Also, I thnk Alan was saying something about each French result representing 100s more in actual numbers.
Alan and Jean will give us a better idea as to where DF23, M222- oroginated. I believe Jean has M222 as a La Tene marker, so she would really have DF49 on the Continent.

However, if DF23, M222- originated in France, as it seems it must, then DF49, DF23- must have also originated in France, so the French Heritage Project would be the finest place to mine testers.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 29, 2012, 08:58:47 AM
Wouldn't the French Heritage DNA Project be the best bet to find DF49 prospects? There are French DF23+ samples, so DF49+, DF23- should be French, correct?

Is that a sincere question?  

It was a sincere question and suggestion. How would the DF23, M222- people have made it to France from the Isles? ...
However, if DF23, M222- originated in France, as it seems it must, then DF49, DF23- must have also originated in France, so the French Heritage Project would be the finest place to mine testers.

The reason I ask if this is a sincere question is I want to know if you personally really think DF23+ M222- originated in France.  I don't know. I think it might have, but it might have originated in the Isles. I wouldn't say Benelux or Germany should be entirely ruled out either. You ask a question about movement from France to the Isles but you make a statement in contradiction, that France must be the origination. Just because you add questions marks around points you are trying to make, does not mean you are not trying to make point.

Do you think DF23+ M222- originated in France?

As far as your question about how people might have made it to France from the Isles, I think think the answer is very simple, which is I wonder why you asked it.  Then English Channel is only 21 miles wide at some points so it would have been relatively easy to cross by boat. Some people have even swam across it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_successful_English_Channel_swimmers


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: eochaidh on August 29, 2012, 10:36:08 AM
DF23 MUST have originated in France, because there are French results. And as Alan has stated, each French results represents hundreds of actual results. Even if there are more DF23 in the Isles, frequency doesn't mean origin. This have been beaten to death on this and other forums. Frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin! Not even with DF23!

DF23 originated in France. My own line of DF23 originated in Italy with Bonnet's family.

Mike, if Jean says M222 is a La Tene marker, how could DF23 possibly have originated in the Isles?

If DF23 moved from the Isles to France, Alan and Jean would both be able to tell you about the discovery of a pot or pan found in the dirt. You need to be able to show a Culture that moved from the Isles to France and the movement from Wales and Cornwall to Brittany doesn't work.... I already tried it.

So yes, I believe DF23 originated in France.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 29, 2012, 11:04:41 AM
DF23 MUST have originated in France, because there are French results. And as Alan has stated, each French results represents hundreds of actual results. Even if there are more DF23 in the Isles, frequency doesn't mean origin. This have been beaten to death on this and other forums. Frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin! Not even with DF23!

DF23 originated in France. My own line of DF23 originated in Italy with Bonnet's family.

Mike, if Jean says M222 is a La Tene marker, how could DF23 possibly have originated in the Isles?

If DF23 moved from the Isles to France, Alan and Jean would both be able to tell you about the discovery of a pot or pan found in the dirt. You need to be able to show a Culture that moved from the Isles to France and the movement from Wales and Cornwall to Brittany doesn't work.... I already tried it.

So yes, I believe DF23 originated in France. This forum and others have long since sold their souls to Alan and Jean, it's too late to go back now.

I actually have never said DF23 originated in France.  I dont know but it is one option.  The only L21 clade I think its pretty clear was not an isles Celtic thing is Df13 negative L21.  There are two lines, one of which is very overrepresented given sample size in Atlantic France.  The other seems rather English.  

As for my comment about a hit from France being worth a hundred on the isles, that is just simple maths not an opinion.  if you get 10 out of a sample of 500 then that is 2% while if you get 10 out of 50 that is 20%.  Thats not the actual figures but I did ask and it was something akin to that sort of thing.  Totals are worth meaningless until they can be converted into percentages.

Just for clarrity, I believe L21 (and therfore L21XDF13) originated in France but I have no fixed options on most downstream clades such as DF23, DF21 etc. The data is just too thin outside the isles to conclude.   My interest remains at the root of L21 and upstream of it, not with downstream clades. My main interest remains how did L21 get to the isles, how did L11 get to western Europe and where were the pre-European roots of L11 i.e L23, M269 and upstream. I would probably be interested in the within-isles early development of L21 too and something like DF21 is probably part of that story.  I dont have any opinion on DF23 although I understand it is older than DF21 and could either be continental or an early isles line.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: eochaidh on August 29, 2012, 11:48:22 AM
Alan, I never said that you stated that DF23 originated in France.

Alan, my DF23 line is from Piedmont, Italy though Bonnet's family. What is the archaeological evidence that would show a movement that could have brought DF23 from the Isles to Piedmont, Italy?

But, back on the topic of DF49, I still think that the French Heritage DNA Project would be the place to look for testers. Even if DF23 might not have originated in France, DF49 must have!


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 29, 2012, 01:05:51 PM
DF23 MUST have originated in France, because there are French results. And as Alan has stated, each French results represents hundreds of actual results. Even if there are more DF23 in the Isles, frequency doesn't mean origin. This have been beaten to death on this and other forums. Frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin! Not even with DF23!

DF23 originated in France. My own line of DF23 originated in Italy with Bonnet's family.

Mike, if Jean says M222 is a La Tene marker, how could DF23 possibly have originated in the Isles?

If DF23 moved from the Isles to France, Alan and Jean would both be able to tell you about the discovery of a pot or pan found in the dirt. You need to be able to show a Culture that moved from the Isles to France and the movement from Wales and Cornwall to Brittany doesn't work.... I already tried it.

So yes, I believe DF23 originated in France.

I'll take you at your word that this is what you believe. If so, it is a silly question to ask the below.
It was a sincere question and suggestion. How would the DF23, M222- people have made it to France from the Isles? ...
They might have already been there, according to your belief.

Mike, if Jean says M222 is a La Tene marker, how could DF23 possibly have originated in the Isles?

Is this a sincere question? I don't believe Jean has a hard core, absolute claim, or anything close to that, that M222 is a La Tene marker. She generally cautions her suppositions with words like "tentative" or "perhaps". She also could just plain be wrong, as we all can. Your question is couched in such a way that Jean's statement is believed to be absolutely authoritative. It just doesn't look too sincere. That's okay, but it is not really humorous.



Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: eochaidh on August 29, 2012, 01:25:54 PM
When I asked the question, "How would DF23, M222- people made to France from the Isles?" I was asking it as a way of showing that it was impossible. Obvioulsly, it is possible in the sense that a person could have gotten into a boat and made the crossing, but over the years I have asked over and over again about small family and group cossings and been told that only large Cultural Movements account foe the movement of Subclades.

Unless a pot, a pan, a brooch, a drinking cup or something that can be identified exclusively with the Isles is found in France corresponding to the age of DF49 or DF23, then it has to be concluded that DF49 and DF23 originated in France.

In an old thread about M222 being a La Tene marker, it seemed that you and others completely bought the idea. I believe you even pointed out that M222 was found in Germany which is the origin of La Tene. Is there any archaeological evidence showing M222 going from the Islses to Germany? Of course not. Therefore it must have been the other way around with La Tene.

What are some of your ideas of the large cultural flows from the Isles that would have brought DF49, DF23, and for that matter, M222 to the Continent? Where are the pots and pans?

EDIT: Mike, I think it was you who started a thread once about M222 being from Bavaria. Am I correct?


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 29, 2012, 01:44:41 PM
... In an old thread about M222 being a La Tene marker, it seemed that you and others completely bought the idea. I believe you even pointed out that M222 was found in Germany which is the origin of La Tene. Is there any archaeological evidence showing M222 going from the Islses to Germany? Of course not. Therefore it must have been the other way around with La Tene.

Please do not paraphrase me. I don't think it is an accurate representation when you say "completely bought the idea." If you want to quote me, that's okay. I'll just ask you to include the context in the conversation. No paraphrasing, please.

... Not that I wouldn't consider that M222 could have originated in a La Tene culture. Of course I would consider it, and even try to inspire a debate on it.

What are some of your ideas of the large cultural flows from the Isles that would have brought DF49, DF23, and for that matter, M222 to the Continent? Where are the pots and pans?

I am aware of some historical migrations from the Isles to the Continent, as I think you've pointed out in the past.  As far as the archaeology goes, I don't know, other than the Bell Beakers were all over the seas and waterways in Western Europe so I would expect at least some bi-directional movement.

Quote from: eochaid
EDIT: Mike, I think it was you who started a thread once about M222 being from Bavaria. Am I correct?

Miles, dig it up! but please start another topic if you want to talk about M222 and Bavaria. Please no general implications of associating topics and posters. Dig up the specifics you want to, that's fine.

Do some homework and start your own topic.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: eochaidh on August 29, 2012, 05:44:05 PM
I said, it "seemed" like you and others bought it completely.

All I said at the start of all this was that I think the French Heritage DNA Project would be a good place to look for DF49, DF23-  I still believe that's true.

My DF23 originated in Italy and there are several other French DF23+, M222- results. Each of those results equals around 100 Isles results, so it seems very likely that DF23+ and DF49+ have their origin in France. Then again, maybe someone can show a Cultural Movement from the Isles that would counter that.

Let me just leave it at my suggestion to check with the French Heritage DNA Project.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: eochaidh on August 29, 2012, 06:06:44 PM
 I'm wrong. My apologies. Don't check with the French Heritage DNA Project for DF49=, DF23- results. It was a dumb idea on my part.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 29, 2012, 10:41:30 PM
Here are the STR based varieties that appear (so far) to be DF49*. The GD is the GD at 67 to the modal for this particular group.

f134461___ Byrne__________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=18__ Ireland
f139489___ Cabe___________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=14__ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin
f140524___ Cain___________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=xx__ Isle of Man (in Irish Sea near Scotland)
f188270___ Gillespie______ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=17__ zzzUnkOrigin
f122765___ Greaves________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=13__ zzzUnkOrigin
f145676___ Hamilton ______ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=xx__ Ireland
f129036___ Harrison_______ R-L21/DF13/DF49*______________ 49-1226______________ GD=16__ England, North West, Cheshire
f31795____ Hopkins________ R-L21/DF13____________________ 49-1226______________ GD=12__ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Crimlin
f33932____ Hopkins________ R-L21/DF13/DF49*______________ 49-1226______________ GD=12__ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Derrylahan
f183161___ Hopkins________ R-L21/DF13____________________ 49-1226______________ GD=11__ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Ross West
f232424___ Hopkins________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=12__ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Swineford
f19499____ Hopkins________ R-L21/DF13/DF49_______________ 49-1226______________ GD=18__ zzCountry
f127552___ McCabe_________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=18__ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo
f218322___ McCabe_________ R-L21/DF13/DF49_______________ 49-1226______________ GD=16__ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Rosslea
f827______ McCabe_________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=17__ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone
f148651___ McCabe ________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=14__ Ireland
f117117___ Holladay_______ R-L21/DF13/DF49*______________ 49 - unassigned______ GD=18__ England, South West, Gloucestershire, Chalford
f246749___ McElrea________ zzL21predicted________________ 49 - unassigned______ GD=14__ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dunmullen
f223687___ McElrea________ zzL21predicted________________ 49 - unassigned______ GD=17__ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dunmullen
f216031___ McElrea________ R-L21/DF13/DF49*______________ 49 - unassigned______ GD=18__ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Omagh, Parish of Cappagh
f137198___ McManus/Henry__ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=13__ zzzUnkOrigin
f171267___ Riddle_________ zzL21predicted________________ 49-1214______________ GD=21__ Ireland, Ulster
f131386___ Riddle_________ zzL21predicted________________ 49-1214______________ GD=18__ Ireland
f207371___ Riddle_________ zzL21predicted________________ 49-1214______________ GD=20__ Scotland


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: David Mc on August 30, 2012, 01:10:31 AM
Exciting to see the list growing!

Mike. Is the 49-1214 designation one that you've given to the Riddles in particular or does it tie in with some larger grouping who you are presuming to be DF49*?

Also, would the Lunneys (ftdna 159023 and 159024) be likely candidates for DF49*? I'm not sure what the GD is between them and the McElreas, but they seem to have some commonalities. At this point, I think they've only tested for R-L21, though.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: razyn on August 30, 2012, 01:10:32 AM
DF49 was placed on the ISOGG tree (from Investigation) yesterday:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 30, 2012, 10:43:18 AM
DF49 was placed on the ISOGG tree (from Investigation) yesterday:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Cool, and to think that less than a month or so ago, some thought DF49 was redundant... but our citizen-scientists knew better.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: David Mc on September 07, 2012, 04:29:33 PM
I just got my results back (kit 216031) and I'm L319.1- and L302-. I guess there's nowhere else to go test-wise for now. I am DF49* (or DF49**?).


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: David Mc on September 07, 2012, 06:48:01 PM
Interesting to see that we've been joined by a Stedman, as well-- and one who seems to be more closely matched to the McElrea signature. I'm not sure what the actual GD is between us, but it's close enough to be somewhat surprising to me. What has Shropshire to do with Co. Tyrone?


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on September 07, 2012, 06:52:50 PM
Interesting to see that we've been joined by a Stedman, as well-- and one who seems to be more closely matched to the McElrea signature. I'm not sure what the actual GD is between us, but it's close enough to be somewhat surprising to me. What has Shropshire to do with Co. Tyrone?

No idea but if you PM me we can discus it, tomorrow though it's getting late here :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: David Mc on September 07, 2012, 07:46:11 PM
Fantastic! I hadn't had a chance to read the other threads earlier. Congratulations.. and you are pm'ed sir!


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: OConnor on September 08, 2012, 06:04:26 PM
Alan, I never said that you stated that DF23 originated in France.

Alan, my DF23 line is from Piedmont, Italy though Bonnet's family. What is the archaeological evidence that would show a movement that could have brought DF23 from the Isles to Piedmont, Italy?

But, back on the topic of DF49, I still think that the French Heritage DNA Project would be the place to look for testers. Even if DF23 might not have originated in France, DF49 must have!

The Green Hills of Tyrol

There was a soldier, a Scottish soldier
Who wandered far away, and soldiered far away
There was non bolder, with good broad shoulder
He's fought in many a fray, and fought and won.
He's seen the glory, and told the story
Of battles glorious, and deeds victorious
But now he's sighing, his heart is crying
To leave these green hills ofTyrol
Because these green hills are not highland hills,
Or the island hills, they're not my land's hills
And fair as these green foreign hills may be
They are not the hills of home... :)




Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Heber on September 09, 2012, 04:28:17 AM
Alan, I never said that you stated that DF23 originated in France.

Alan, my DF23 line is from Piedmont, Italy though Bonnet's family. What is the archaeological evidence that would show a movement that could have brought DF23 from the Isles to Piedmont, Italy?

But, back on the topic of DF49, I still think that the French Heritage DNA Project would be the place to look for testers. Even if DF23 might not have originated in France, DF49 must have!

The Green Hills of Tyrol

There was a soldier, a Scottish soldier
Who wandered far away, and soldiered far away
There was non bolder, with good broad shoulder
He's fought in many a fray, and fought and won.
He's seen the glory, and told the story
Of battles glorious, and deeds victorious
But now he's sighing, his heart is crying
To leave these green hills ofTyrol
Because these green hills are not highland hills,
Or the island hills, they're not my land's hills
And fair as these green foreign hills may be
They are not the hills of home... :)


What a beautiful highland ballad. It reminds me of the scene in Kubricks, Barry Lyndon where the hapless Barry captures the heart of the beautiful Lischen, although the scene is different from the original Thackery novel.
I am sure there are traces of Isles DNA on the continent from the many regiments who fought there.

"Do not think me very cruel and heartless, ladies; this heart of Lischen's was like many a town in the neighbourhood in which she dwelt, and had been stormed and occupied several times before I came to invest it; now mounting French colours, now green and yellow Saxon, now black and white Prussian, as the case may be. A lady who sets her heart upon a lad in uniform must prepare to change lovers pretty quickly, or her life will be but a sad one."

http://john-likes-movies.blogspot.de/2012/04/barry-lyndon-review.html

http://www.medellindigital.gov.co/Mediateca/repositorio%20de%20recursos/Thackeray,%20William%20Makepeace/Thackeray_William%20Makepeace-Barry%20Lyndon.pdf

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/flight-of-the-earls-wild-geese/


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2012, 05:12:35 AM
I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on September 15, 2012, 09:43:18 AM
I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49 (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49)

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: David Mc on September 15, 2012, 03:42:04 PM
Thanks for your work in setting up this new project, jdean. I look forward to seeing what patterns emerge.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: rms2 on September 15, 2012, 03:55:52 PM
I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49 (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49)

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!

Looks very nice! It will grow, as you said, like a mighty oak from a small acorn.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on September 15, 2012, 05:40:04 PM
I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49 (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49)

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!

Looks very nice! It will grow, as you said, like a mighty oak from a small acorn.

I have great hopes.

 I learnt of an order tonight that's very dear to me, fingers crossed !!


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: eochaidh on September 15, 2012, 07:58:36 PM
I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49 (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49)

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!

I know I wouldn't want me in a group, but I was the first public guy to be found DF23+, M222-, so I've joined the group. Be certain, though, I don't even like me.

I've already called security on myself....

And, thank you for starting the Project.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on September 15, 2012, 09:10:22 PM
I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49 (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49)

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!

I know I wouldn't want me in a group, but I was the first public guy to be found DF23+, M222-, so I've joined the group. Be certain, though, I don't even like me.

I've already called security on myself....

And, thank you for starting the Project.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, it's good to have you on board !!

I'm sure we shall have lots to agree and disagree about DF49 :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 15, 2012, 10:23:02 PM
I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49 (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49)

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!

Great work. Thanks for turning on your Y DNA SNP report.

Please request that DF49+ people also continue to stay in or join the L21 project as is appropriate. This makes it easier to track the group as a whole.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 18, 2012, 02:42:13 PM
What do you think of this?

I found a guy that has several markers in common with
f44126 Garrett R-L21/DF13/DF49

fN15295 Lenzen has common off-modals of 390, 454, 447, H4, 576, 442 with Garrett. Lenzen also has a high 481, which is common among DF23 people.

fN15295   Peter Lenzen, b 1741 Walsdorf, Daun, Prussia

I think his Ysearch is 7SY4A.

He is in the German Language Area project and I can contact him. He has done zero SNP testing that I know of, but what should he test for?

L21, DF13, DF49, DF23? In what sequence?


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Dubhthach on September 18, 2012, 03:29:12 PM
What do you think of this?

I found a guy that has several markers in common with
f44126 Garrett R-L21/DF13/DF49

fN15295 Lenzen has common off-modals of 390, 454, 447, H4, 576, 442 with Garrett. Lenzen also has a high 481, which is common among DF23 people.

fN15295   Peter Lenzen, b 1741 Walsdorf, Daun, Prussia

I think his Ysearch is 7SY4A.

He is in the German Language Area project and I can contact him. He has done zero SNP testing that I know of, but what should he test for?

L21, DF13, DF49, DF23? In what sequence?

I would venture for DF13 first, obviously if he's DF13 negative then test L21. If however he's DF13+ then test DF49 followed by DF23 (if DF49+).

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on September 18, 2012, 03:38:59 PM
What do you think of this?

I found a guy that has several markers in common with
f44126 Garrett R-L21/DF13/DF49

fN15295 Lenzen has common off-modals of 390, 454, 447, H4, 576, 442 with Garrett. Lenzen also has a high 481, which is common among DF23 people.

fN15295   Peter Lenzen, b 1741 Walsdorf, Daun, Prussia

I think his Ysearch is 7SY4A.

He is in the German Language Area project and I can contact him. He has done zero SNP testing that I know of, but what should he test for?

L21, DF13, DF49, DF23? In what sequence?

I would venture for DF13 first, obviously if he's DF13 negative then test L21. If however he's DF13+ then test DF49 followed by DF23 (if DF49+).

-Paul
(DF41+)

Exactly what I was about to say :)

BTW another DF49* has turned up

MURRAY kit no. 213636


Another with out any matches who are DF49, actually he lacks matches who are anything !!


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 18, 2012, 05:41:04 PM
What about this guy?

f96218 Pierre Grenon, b.c.1620, France

He has a lot of common off-modals with the following that I'm pretty sure are DF23* (or at least DF49*) types:
f41836   Fancher
f90660   Johnston
f37464   Johnston
f208550   Dyer
f165676   Dyer
f70979   Dyer
f137136   Gale
f122016   Honeycutt
f60472   Pugh
f128257   Pugh
f108037   Pugh
f189772   Pugh
f185074   Pugh

f96218 Grenon kind of fits into each of these three STR Signatures:
49-23-1421
49-23-2123
49-23-21-HyM

This is exactly what you might expect in a situation of distantly related people. It would make sense these three varieties have some common STRs beyond being probably DF23*.

I can email the guy from the German project but I can't find an email ID or Ysearch for Grenon. RMS2, you have good contacts with the French, right?


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: rms2 on September 18, 2012, 08:18:49 PM
What about this guy?

f96218 Pierre Grenon, b.c.1620, France

He has a lot of common off-modals with the following that I'm pretty sure are DF23* (or at least DF49*) types:
f41836   Fancher
f90660   Johnston
f37464   Johnston
f208550   Dyer
f165676   Dyer
f70979   Dyer
f137136   Gale
f122016   Honeycutt
f60472   Pugh
f128257   Pugh
f108037   Pugh
f189772   Pugh
f185074   Pugh

f96218 Grenon kind of fits into each of these three STR Signatures:
49-23-1421
49-23-2123
49-23-21-HyM

This is exactly what you might expect in a situation of distantly related people. It would make sense these three varieties have some common STRs beyond being probably DF23*.

I can email the guy from the German project but I can't find an email ID or Ysearch for Grenon. RMS2, you have good contacts with the French, right?

Well, I try to. I get along well with the guys who run the French Heritage Project.

I don't see him in that project. Where did you find him?


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 18, 2012, 10:29:10 PM
What about this guy?

f96218 Pierre Grenon, b.c.1620, France

He has a lot of common off-modals with the following that I'm pretty sure are DF23* (or at least DF49*) types:
f41836   Fancher
f90660   Johnston
f37464   Johnston
f208550   Dyer
f165676   Dyer
f70979   Dyer
f137136   Gale
f122016   Honeycutt
f60472   Pugh
f128257   Pugh
f108037   Pugh
f189772   Pugh
f185074   Pugh

f96218 Grenon kind of fits into each of these three STR Signatures:
49-23-1421
49-23-2123
49-23-21-HyM

This is exactly what you might expect in a situation of distantly related people. It would make sense these three varieties have some common STRs beyond being probably DF23*.

I can email the guy from the German project but I can't find an email ID or Ysearch for Grenon. RMS2, you have good contacts with the French, right?

Well, I try to. I get along well with the guys who run the French Heritage Project.

I don't see him in that project. Where did you find him

Right underneath our L96 guy, Gontaut/Drake.

GOODNOW (R-M269)
96218    Goodnow    Pierre Grenon b. around 1620

Grenon appears to be the real MDKA name.
U


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: rms2 on September 19, 2012, 01:38:51 PM
What about this guy?

f96218 Pierre Grenon, b.c.1620, France

He has a lot of common off-modals with the following that I'm pretty sure are DF23* (or at least DF49*) types:
f41836   Fancher
f90660   Johnston
f37464   Johnston
f208550   Dyer
f165676   Dyer
f70979   Dyer
f137136   Gale
f122016   Honeycutt
f60472   Pugh
f128257   Pugh
f108037   Pugh
f189772   Pugh
f185074   Pugh

f96218 Grenon kind of fits into each of these three STR Signatures:
49-23-1421
49-23-2123
49-23-21-HyM

This is exactly what you might expect in a situation of distantly related people. It would make sense these three varieties have some common STRs beyond being probably DF23*.

I can email the guy from the German project but I can't find an email ID or Ysearch for Grenon. RMS2, you have good contacts with the French, right?

Well, I try to. I get along well with the guys who run the French Heritage Project.

I don't see him in that project. Where did you find him

Right underneath our L96 guy, Gontaut/Drake.

GOODNOW (R-M269)
96218    Goodnow    Pierre Grenon b. around 1620

Grenon appears to be the real MDKA name.
U

Okay, I see him now.

I sent the Group Admin of the French Heritage Project an email to forward to Mr. Goodnow regarding this.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 21, 2012, 02:44:22 PM
What do you think of this guy in the Cumberland Gap project?

f233080   Cornelius Durham b.c.1775, England

He could be distantly related to the 49-23-21-HyM guys, in other words he might be DF23* or at least DF49*.

He has the high 481=25 to go with 413a=22 570>=19 . He has the 406s1=11 of f108030   Trainor, who is Hy-Maine STR signature.

..... Or these guys?

f11217 Gaetano C Basile, b.1845 Sicily, Italy
f194063 Nathan McCollister, b.c. 1795,  Dorc. - Som. MD
f197914 Charles Mitchell, b.1786, Ireland

They too have a high 481 and have a strong signature of 390=23 437=14 464=15,15,16,17 570>=18 406s1=11 511=9 534=14 481=24 446=14.  I think have to create a new variety for something with that many off-modals in common.

I'll make sure they all are in the spreadsheet.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: rms2 on September 28, 2012, 03:13:53 PM
There were 14 DF49 results this morning, all negative.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on September 28, 2012, 03:42:02 PM
There were 14 DF49 results this morning, all negative.

Cheers Rich

I could see there were 14 new results from Ymap but couldn't tell if they were all in the L21 project since my DF49 files are on my new laptop which has suffered a technical setback, I left the charger at Somerset RO on Wednesday :)

Never mind I'll have it back Sunday and shall be back up to speed, hopefully we shall have a few more results in by then !!


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 28, 2012, 06:05:37 PM
I went looking for DF49* and DF23* but I think I mostly just found M222+ people, and lots of them.

Anyway, the next posting of the R1b-L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet will have more suspects of these people.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on September 28, 2012, 07:04:56 PM
I went looking for DF49* and DF23* but I think I mostly just found M222+ people, and lots of them.

Anyway, the next posting of the R1b-L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet will have more suspects of these people.

DF49 x M222 is a tricky one and no mistake, I almost wasn't joking when I said I was thinking of producing a cluster value out of 'appears to match L21 neg folks more closely than L21 plus' :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on October 04, 2012, 10:27:34 AM
We had another DF49+ result in last night and one that was of particular interest to me, Jim Thompson kit no. 86522 !!!

I've been emailing people in Jim's Thompson group for over three yrs now and if anything interesting had turned up in my WTY they would have been one of the people I'd have contacted about it. Just under two yrs ago Jim agreed to a deep clade test (based on my observations) in which he was found to be L21*and now we have the much more accurate DF49 result, I think I shall have a beer tonight :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: rms2 on October 04, 2012, 07:43:51 PM
We had another DF49+ result in last night and one that was of particular interest to me, Jim Thompson kit no. 86522 !!!

I've been emailing people in Jim's Thompson group for over three yrs now and if anything interesting had turned up in my WTY they would have been one of the people I'd have contacted about it. Just under two yrs ago Jim agreed to a deep clade test (based on my observations) in which he was found to be L21*and now we have the much more accurate DF49 result, I think I shall have a beer tonight :)


Congratulations! Have two or three!


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on October 04, 2012, 08:18:22 PM
We had another DF49+ result in last night and one that was of particular interest to me, Jim Thompson kit no. 86522 !!!

I've been emailing people in Jim's Thompson group for over three yrs now and if anything interesting had turned up in my WTY they would have been one of the people I'd have contacted about it. Just under two yrs ago Jim agreed to a deep clade test (based on my observations) in which he was found to be L21*and now we have the much more accurate DF49 result, I think I shall have a beer tonight :)


Congratulations! Have two or three!

Thanks Rich, it's taken a long time to get this far !!

As an extra bonus I've just noticed one of the Thompsons has now upgraded to 111 :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Peter M on October 07, 2012, 12:43:01 PM
New DF49+ M222- this weekend: 192660-Merril (37 marker profile). See the results sheet. Will send him a message inviting him to join the DF-49 project.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on October 07, 2012, 02:14:15 PM
New DF49+ M222- this weekend: 192660-Merril (37 marker profile). See the results sheet. Will send him a message inviting him to join the DF-49 project.

Cheers Peter

No idea how I managed to miss this fellow !!

Looking quickly he seems a good candidate for a cluster Mike calls 49-23-2224. This is a DF23 group so it would be interesting to see a result for that SNP also

This group looks like it could be quite a productive line of investigation.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Peter M on October 08, 2012, 08:37:39 AM
New DF49+ M222- this weekend: 192660-Merril (37 marker profile). See the results sheet. Will send him a message inviting him to join the DF-49 project.

Cheers Peter

No idea how I managed to miss this fellow !!

Looking quickly he seems a good candidate for a cluster Mike calls 49-23-2224. This is a DF23 group so it would be interesting to see a result for that SNP also

This group looks like it could be quite a productive line of investigation.

192660-Merril appears to have a good match to 137235-Caldwell and he (Caldwell) is DF23+, so Merril might learn more from a DF23 test.

I'm not sure about the others in Mike's 49-23-2224 cluster. I'm not even sure I understand that cluster. Apparently I'm missing something.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mark Jost on October 25, 2012, 10:13:50 AM
Hi have a guy named Henderson f160798 who I have been working with and I was wondering if he should test for DF49? (There are more in the Henderson project as they have a CDY 36,36 and 385B 15, 460-10 and more.)

fN26081   Caldwell   R1b-L21   49-23-2224
f123987   Caldwell   zzL21suspect   49-23-2224
f79710   Carll   R1b-L21   49-23-2224
f160798   Henderson   R1b-L21>DF13   zzDF13unassigned
f102517   Henderson   R1b-L21   zzL21unassigned
f77763   Henderson    R1b-L21   zzL21unassigned
f82717   Taylor   R1b-L21   49-23-2224

Thanks,

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mike Walsh on October 25, 2012, 10:51:41 AM
New DF49+ M222- this weekend: 192660-Merril (37 marker profile). See the results sheet. Will send him a message inviting him to join the DF-49 project.

Cheers Peter

No idea how I managed to miss this fellow !!

Looking quickly he seems a good candidate for a cluster Mike calls 49-23-2224. This is a DF23 group so it would be interesting to see a result for that SNP also

This group looks like it could be quite a productive line of investigation.

192660-Merril appears to have a good match to 137235-Caldwell and he (Caldwell) is DF23+, so Merril might learn more from a DF23 test.

I'm not sure about the others in Mike's 49-23-2224 cluster. I'm not even sure I understand that cluster. Apparently I'm missing something.

I have a large number of people thrown into various "49-23" varieties but the lines between M222+ and M222- and the lines between DF23+ and DF23- are unknown. I've got folks that are great M222+ matches but are M222-. Many of these varieties are quite speculative.

A lot more testing of M222, DF23 and DF49 needs to occur.  I'm not sure if you shouldn't start with M222 first if you have haven't already tested and then work back up to DF23 and DF49 as needed.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mark Jost on October 26, 2012, 10:15:27 AM
MikeW could you look at this for me please? Thx.
MJost

Hi have a guy named Henderson f160798 who I have been working with and I was wondering if he should test for DF49? (There are more in the Henderson project as they have a CDY 36,36 and 385B 15, 460-10 and more.)

fN26081   Caldwell   R1b-L21   49-23-2224
f123987   Caldwell   zzL21suspect   49-23-2224
f79710   Carll   R1b-L21   49-23-2224
f160798   Henderson   R1b-L21>DF13   zzDF13unassigned
f102517   Henderson   R1b-L21   zzL21unassigned
f77763   Henderson    R1b-L21   zzL21unassigned
f82717   Taylor   R1b-L21   49-23-2224

Thanks,

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on October 26, 2012, 05:51:58 PM
Hi have a guy named Henderson f160798 who I have been working with and I was wondering if he should test for DF49? (There are more in the Henderson project as they have a CDY 36,36 and 385B 15, 460-10 and more.)

fN26081   Caldwell   R1b-L21   49-23-2224
f123987   Caldwell   zzL21suspect   49-23-2224
f79710   Carll   R1b-L21   49-23-2224
f160798   Henderson   R1b-L21>DF13   zzDF13unassigned
f102517   Henderson   R1b-L21   zzL21unassigned
f77763   Henderson    R1b-L21   zzL21unassigned
f82717   Taylor   R1b-L21   49-23-2224

Thanks,

MJost

I'd hang fire on this one at the moment !!

I'm currently trying to recruit folks on the visible edge of this group, I'm expecting it to be pretty big but I think it advisable to grow it from the centre !!

A slight problem is despite a lovely crop of off modal values it's quit hard to pick a selection that doesn’t happily find L21 negative folk and of course if you use to many you may as well  not bother :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Mark Jost on October 26, 2012, 08:40:00 PM
I'd hang fire on this one at the moment !!

I'm currently trying to recruit folks on the visible edge of this group, I'm expecting it to be pretty big but I think it advisable to grow it from the centre !!

A slight problem is despite a lovely crop of off modal values it's quit hard to pick a selection that doesn’t happily find L21 negative folk and of course if you use to many you may as well  not bother :)

Ok, I will have him 'Hang Tight' awaiting for a  better defined range. I havent been following to closely so that's why I was inquiring.

Thank you,

MJost


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on October 26, 2012, 08:55:12 PM
I'd hang fire on this one at the moment !!

I'm currently trying to recruit folks on the visible edge of this group, I'm expecting it to be pretty big but I think it advisable to grow it from the centre !!

A slight problem is despite a lovely crop of off modal values it's quit hard to pick a selection that doesn’t happily find L21 negative folk and of course if you use to many you may as well  not bother :)

When I first looked at this group I thought I could use key vales that would work with a 37 loci kit, shortly after I put that idea to bed :)

Ok, I will have him 'Hang Tight' awaiting for a  better defined range. I havent been following to closely so that's why I was inquiring.

Thank you,

MJost

When I first looked at this group I thought I could use key vales that would work with a 37 loci kit, shortly after I put that idea to bed :)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on December 01, 2012, 08:04:06 AM
At last a new DF49 plus result !!

Allison kit no. B3231, no DF23 result so far but he's not an obvious candidate for that SNP


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: rms2 on December 01, 2012, 09:47:26 AM
At last a new DF49 plus result !!

Allison kit no. B3231, no DF23 result so far but he's not an obvious candidate for that SNP


Congratulations!

I was surprised when I saw his result this morning. I don't know why, but I am surprised every time someone gets a positive result for something beyond DF13 these days.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on December 01, 2012, 10:06:34 AM
At last a new DF49 plus result !!

Allison kit no. B3231, no DF23 result so far but he's not an obvious candidate for that SNP


Congratulations!

I was surprised when I saw his result this morning. I don't know why, but I am surprised every time someone gets a positive result for something beyond DF13 these days.

Me too !!



Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on December 24, 2012, 12:48:57 PM
We had a new DF49+ result turn up the other day, Parry (ap Harry) MDKA 1729 Liverpool, DF23 is on order  but I think he's mostly going to be DF49*.

He matches the DF49, M222- modal of having no matches very well, this fellow only has 8 @ 12 and has tested up to 67, at least one of which is L21 neg :)


Merry Xmas All


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on January 19, 2013, 11:38:56 AM
A new DF49+ result came in last night, Officer (kit no. 230866), ancestry is NE Scotland, DF23 is now on order. more waiting, FTDNA are really dragging there heels at the mo !!

This fellow has only got one match to speak of who's only tested up to P312, I'll drop him a line once we know the DF23 status.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: rms2 on January 19, 2013, 02:35:20 PM
A new DF49+ result came in last night, Officer (kit no. 230866), ancestry is NE Scotland, DF23 is now on order. more waiting, FTDNA are really dragging there heels at the mo !!

This fellow has only got one match to speak of who's only tested up to P312, I'll drop him a line once we know the DF23 status.

I saw that result just a little while ago. Congratulations on another new DF49+!

I guess processing all those Geno 2.0 transfers and all the str upgrades is slowing SNP results down. We're still waiting for a number of DF41 test results, too.

(But I'm waiting for my 111-marker upgrade, too, so I hope they hurry up - but accurately - with that.)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Peter M on April 25, 2013, 09:12:49 AM
For everybody who's wondering what's happening in DF49: the new SNP Z2961 has been found to be between DF23 and M222 and therefore is highly recommended for all DF23+ and M222-.

As of today, there are 2 positive and 4 negative tests of Z2961 for DF23+/M222- people.

As Z2961 is upstream of M222, there's no reason for M222+ people to test Z2961 (all tests of Z2961 by M222+ people are positive).

The following SNPs are downstream of DF23 as well and can be ordered with FT-DNA. Please note that the exact position of these SNPs is currently unknown. To date they've only been tested by M222+ people and all these tests were positive. Most of these SNPs are therefore most likely close to M222.

  • Z2955
  • Z2962
  • Z2963
  • Z2964
  • Z2970
  • Z2972
  • Z2977
  • Z2984
  • Z2988

These SNPs might be an opportunity for M222- people who know to be Z2961+. It currently looks like being better to test Z2961 first.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Peter M on April 25, 2013, 09:16:19 AM
In order to have a reasonable current list of results, we've set up a DF49 results web page (including DF23, Z2961 and some M222). The page is on a site about R-Z18/L257 which is under the "alien" R-U106. The results table contains both tested profiles and profiles we recommend to test one of the SNPs. The intention is to update it at least every two weeks and when there are new developments, such as Z2961, more often.
 
Please note the page is produced by the FT-DNA DF49 and Subgroups Project; we have no intention of getting in the way of the FT-DNA M222 project and we therefore only list those M222+ who have also tested DF23+ explicitly. To help people decide whether to test any of the new (Geno2) SNPs downstream of M222, we've added all negatives there as well for the time being.
 
See www.L257.org; select Y-DNA Profiles DF49+ in the menu on the left. Any serious/helpful comments are welcome !!


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Dubhthach on April 25, 2013, 10:00:31 AM
It would be interesting to see verify if N26284 (Leister) is Z2961+, he has a M222- result but clusters quite close to the M222+ folks (on Alex Williamson tree anyways)

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Peter M on April 25, 2013, 10:32:40 AM
I guess it would be interesting as well to see all continental DF23+ (4xFrance, 1x Italy) test Z2261) that would possibly give a next, although vague due to the low numbers, indication of the route of the DF49 people to the British Isles.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on April 25, 2013, 02:43:53 PM
It would be interesting to see verify if N26284 (Leister) is Z2961+, he has a M222- result but clusters quite close to the M222+ folks (on Alex Williamson tree anyways)

-Paul
(DF41+)

That's assuming he really is M222-

Robert Brooks mentioned him the other day on the Yahoo site and was pretty emphatic which I took to mean this has been double checked, I emailed this fellow a couple of months ago enquiring about this but never got a reply.

My problem is he's a very close match to a bunch of people who have tested positive for M222 who all carry the off modal value for M222 of 22 @ 481 and the off modal value for L21 of 12 @ 460.

If he is DF23* as Robert insists then I guess he's a very good candidate for Z2961.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Peter M on April 26, 2013, 06:42:25 AM
It would be interesting to see verify if N26284 (Leister) is Z2961+, he has a M222- result but clusters quite close to the M222+ folks (on Alex Williamson tree anyways)

-Paul
(DF41+)

That's assuming he really is M222-

Robert Brooks mentioned him the other day on the Yahoo site and was pretty emphatic which I took to mean this has been double checked, I emailed this fellow a couple of months ago enquiring about this but never got a reply.

My problem is he's a very close match to a bunch of people who have tested positive for M222 who all carry the off modal value for M222 of 22 @ 481 and the off modal value for L21 of 12 @ 460.

If he is DF23* as Robert insists then I guess he's a very good candidate for Z2961.

Below N26284-Leister in the DF49 Result Sheet there's a group of four who appear very close to M222 (even closer than N26284-Leister) and are considered M222+ in the projects they are member of:

  • 149182-Byrne??
  • 149181-Byrne??
  • N8220-Haslett
  • N112614-??

These people have not tested M222 but have ordered DF23 and were found positive. Anybody any idea about the logic thas was applied to choose for DF23 to test instead of M222 ? Am I missing something here ??


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Jdean on April 26, 2013, 07:50:08 AM
It would be interesting to see verify if N26284 (Leister) is Z2961+, he has a M222- result but clusters quite close to the M222+ folks (on Alex Williamson tree anyways)

-Paul
(DF41+)

That's assuming he really is M222-

Robert Brooks mentioned him the other day on the Yahoo site and was pretty emphatic which I took to mean this has been double checked, I emailed this fellow a couple of months ago enquiring about this but never got a reply.

My problem is he's a very close match to a bunch of people who have tested positive for M222 who all carry the off modal value for M222 of 22 @ 481 and the off modal value for L21 of 12 @ 460.

If he is DF23* as Robert insists then I guess he's a very good candidate for Z2961.

Below N26284-Leister in the DF49 Result Sheet there's a group of four who appear very close to M222 (even closer than N26284-Leister) and are considered M222+ in the projects they are member of:

  • 149182-Byrne??
  • 149181-Byrne??
  • N8220-Haslett
  • N112614-??

These people have not tested M222 but have ordered DF23 and were found positive. Anybody any idea about the logic thas was applied to choose for DF23 to test instead of M222 ? Am I missing something here ??

DF23's got more of a ring to it ?


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: Dubhthach on April 26, 2013, 08:03:07 AM
I don't see any reason why they wouldn't test M222+ maybe it should be suggested to them.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: AlSCOTT on April 09, 2017, 11:30:15 AM
Here is an update on the DF49+ DF23- people. The ones in early branches way upstream of M222 (the NW Irish.)

I see RMS recruited the other McElrea relatives and is defaulting to the DF49* status, which makes sense.

We also have Wilson, so we should look at his variety, 25911, a little closer.

We have the Hopkins/McCabe variety too, 49-1226, and they have L302 and L319.1 within their ranks, although the positioning is to be determined.


f59601   Wilson   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   25911   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan (? or Co. Leitrim)
f246749   McElrea   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49 - unassigned   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dunmullen
f223687   McElrea   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49 - unassigned   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dunmullen
f216031   McElrea   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49 - unassigned   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Omagh, Parish of Cappagh
f129036   Harrison   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49-1226   England, North West, Cheshire
f33932   Hopkins   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49-1226   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Derrylahan
f19499   Hopkins   R-L21/DF13/DF49   49-1226   zzCountry


What about these three Riddle's?  I had them in a probable DF23+ variety since they have high 481 values.

f131386   Riddle   zzL21predicted   49 -1214
f171267   Riddle   zzL21predicted   49 -1214
f207371   Riddle   zzL21predicted   49 -1214


Their GDs with the McElrea's are pretty wide but I noticed they have this STR signature in common with the McElrea's.
385b=15 389ii-i=17 458<=16 456<=15 413a<=22






Title: Re: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13
Post by: AlSCOTT on April 09, 2017, 11:58:07 AM
Hello Every one My FTDNA kit#510220 i tested at Y111 i am Confirmed R-M222 my Paper Trail takes me back to The Baliol Family of Scotland this family originated in Bailleul Normandy France. My Paper Trail and DNA Tell me that Scotland Belongs to Me and now i am working on a Norman Conquest LOL , I may have to test Further.

Here are my SNP'S

DF49+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, L21+, L23+, L278+, L389+, L51+, M343+, Z2542+, M222+, M269+, M335-, DF41-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z3000-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z9-, M478-, M73-, MC14-, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, L408-, L47-, L48-, L371-, L238-, PF3252-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S6317-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2017-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC3861-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L1065-, L1335-, L2-, A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS3937-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF27*