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Title: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 12:20:07 PM
With all the new DF13 subclades there hasn't much discussion on the ASTERISK cluster. This sizable group containing over 600 with the major groups such as 1030-A-SC's, 1511-A-T2's, 9919-A's included and many smaller varieties including my own which is part of the 1130-A's.

I would like to open up a discussion and work through this segment of haplotypes here in this thread.

MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 12:35:44 PM
Mark,

Do you have a list of R-L21 Plus Project members' kit numbers who have actually tested negative for all the known DF13+ branch subclades or who very closely match someone with the same or a similar surname who has?

I don't want to do the clusters thing with project categories for all sorts of reasons.

I may be joining you in the DF13* club soon.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 02:06:04 PM
I just combed through the "C. DF13+ (L21>DF13; Check your DF13+ subclades status)" category and managed to find 13 guys who have tested negative for all the known DF13+ branch SNPs: DF49, L513, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21, L371, and DF41.

So I created a category for them: "Ca. DF13* (L21>DF13; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)".

I realize, as Mark said, these men may represent haplotype clusters that as a consequence can be inferred to be entirely DF13*, but I don't want to get into the cluster-shuffling business (although I have to admit I have done a limited amount of that).


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 10, 2012, 02:15:50 PM
I just combed through the "C. DF13+ (L21>DF13; Check your DF13+ subclades status)" category and managed to find 13 guys who have tested negative for all the known DF13+ branch SNPs: DF49, L5313, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21, L371, and DF41.

So I created a category for them: "Ca. DF13* (L21>DF13; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)".

I realize, as Mark said, these men may represent haplotype clusters that as a consequence can be inferred to be entirely DF13*, but I don't want to get into the cluster-shuffling business (although I have to admit I have done a limited amount of that).

Thanks, Rich. I think these true DF13* to go with the true L21* people are special and need to be highlighted.  It seems like FTDNA ought to have a special asterisk icon or avatar to stick on these peoples' FTDNA screens. Forget the Nials and WAMH avatars.



Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Jdean on August 10, 2012, 02:17:58 PM
I just combed through the "C. DF13+ (L21>DF13; Check your DF13+ subclades status)" category and managed to find 13 guys who have tested negative for all the known DF13+ branch SNPs: DF49, L5313, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21, L371, and DF41.

So I created a category for them: "Ca. DF13* (L21>DF13; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)".

I realize, as Mark said, these men may represent haplotype clusters that as a consequence can be inferred to be entirely DF13*, but I don't want to get into the cluster-shuffling business (although I have to admit I have done a limited amount of that).

Thanks, Rich. I think these true DF13* to go with the true L21* people are special and need to be highlighted.  It seems like FTDNA ought to have a special asterisk icon or avatar to stick on these peoples' FTDNA screens. Forget the Nials and WAMH avatars.




WAMH is particularly meaningless !!


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 02:26:38 PM
Good question. This is a thin group who have tested DF13** but a few more that are DF13* as per MikeW's L21 spreadsheet.

Assuming one ASTERISK has tested negative the big five (now Six?) and double ASTERISK is all ten, I will have to look a little deeper but I have a feeling that there is not that many associated with the five or so main clusters I saw in my more recent Fluxus of the the DF13*. But I need to rerun it since there have been quite a few DF13-'s.

Eight guys so far. And, hard to believe, but not one 1030-A-SC yet.

fN59178   Carroll   R-L21/DF13*  1511-A-T2-D
DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L96- L130- L192.1- L195-

f16114   MacLea   R-L21/DF13*  9919-A-1
DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- 2c

f26059   Durall   R-L21/DF13**  101922
DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555- L96- L69- L195-
L319.1- L302- 4c

fN55408   Smith   R-L21/DF13**  1114
DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555- L96- L743- L130- L192.1- L195- L319.1- L302- L526- L557- L561- L563- L564- L580- L583- L643- L679-

f148326   MJost   R-L21/DF13**  1130-A-1-A
DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555- L96- L130- L192.1- L195- L319.1- L302- L526- L563- L69- 3c1g

f210257   Matrois(Nakskov)   R-L21/DF13**  1511-A-T2*
DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555- L96- L743- L583- L679-

f19706   Price   R-L21/DF13** 1810-W2
DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555- L96- L743- L130- L195- L319.1- L302- L526- L557- L563- L564- L580- L583- L643- L679-

fN8772   Porter   R-L21/DF13** 9919-B
DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555- L96- L69- L130- 3c1g


MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 02:29:22 PM
I want to change the * to another character.... Asterisk causes search issues because it is assumed to be a 'Wild Card' indicator.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 02:44:44 PM
I have 13 in the DF13* category.

Regarding Price, kit 19706: I don't see an L371- result for him. Is that info you have from the WTY?


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 02:50:52 PM
I have 13 in the DF13* category.

Regarding Price, kit 19706: I don't see an L371- result for him. Is that info you have from the WTY?

Also, I did not require an L555- result, since that seems to be a Clan Irwin thing.

That could change, I guess.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: df.reynolds on August 10, 2012, 02:59:51 PM
64047 (Lurz) is R-DF13** (and is also private SNP L526+).  See:
http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf

--david


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 03:03:12 PM
L371 and L555, in my case, was from the WTY and MikeW included it and he might have got that info from Dave R. That eight guys SNPs was pulled from Mike's spreadsheet.

FtDNA would add it to my tree since it wasnt in the Deepclade test. Thats how I got M222, ect added though.

So are you adding kits that are in the same variety assuming that they will match another who tested negative like my 1130-A's guys?

MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: df.reynolds on August 10, 2012, 03:16:39 PM
I want to change the * to another character.... Asterisk causes search issues because it is assumed to be a 'Wild Card' indicator.

How about R-DF13$$ -- indicates both your status, and what you had to do to get there. :)

--david


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 03:25:41 PM
I want to change the * to another character.... Asterisk causes search issues because it is assumed to be a 'Wild Card' indicator.

How about R-DF13$$ -- indicates both your status, and what you had to do to get there. :)

--david

OMG Thats It!  As much as I have spent.... Can We get it in a Gold font color toooo???  

DF13$$


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: seferhabahir on August 10, 2012, 03:39:05 PM
64047 (Lurz) is R-DF13** (and is also private SNP L526+).  See:
http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf

--david

Well,

So am I (i.e., R-DF13** and "private" SNP L583+), but much refer to have my own little Group D with Burde (and the third L583+ who I still haven't gotten to join the project, but still working on it).


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 03:48:45 PM
I would think that all private SNPs be given their own variety name and their offmodal subID such as 526-xxxx.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 04:10:48 PM
I forgot Yvonne, who's brother is Scots modal, ordered DF13 yesterday.


>Re:  Robert Keith Patterson - #65511, K4466 - 1030-A-Sc-2415  Just ordered DF13 >SNP test.
>Yvonne Patterson Watkin

MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 10, 2012, 04:12:03 PM
64047 (Lurz) is R-DF13** (and is also private SNP L526+).  See:
http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf

--david

Well,

So am I (i.e., R-DF13** and "private" SNP L583+), but much refer to have my own little Group D with Burde (and the third L583+ who I still haven't gotten to join the project, but still working on it).

I think that's the way we have to look at it.  Everybody has true private SNPs. We just haven't discovered them yet so the asterisk and haplogroup labeling schemes are related to very stable, non-private SNPs that can be positioned on the Y DNA tree.

Hence, a terminal SNP is not really the youngest SNP in a lineage but the youngest public/recognized SNP one is derived for.

However, as we all know, one surprise test result can move a (false) private SNP to a non-private status.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: seferhabahir on August 10, 2012, 04:13:11 PM
I would think that all private SNPs be given their own variety name and their offmodal subID such as 526-xxxx.

I think this would be OK, but only if they have tested all the big 10 (or 9 or whatever else might have been given a designation in the ISOGG tree, like L555) under DF13, and thus look something like this:

C.  DF13+ (L21>DF13; check your DF13+ subclades status)

Ca. DF13* (L21>DF13; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)

Cb. DF13* (L21>DF13>L526; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)

Cc. DF13* (L21>DF13>L583; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)

Need to be sure that the private SNPs are not actually under a known DF13+ subclade. So Norris (L580+) would almost qualify to be listed like this after testing for DF49- which I think is the only one missing. I would think Rich does not want to go down the off-modal subID path, since it would be like recognizing clusters again.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: df.reynolds on August 10, 2012, 04:21:07 PM
I would think that all private SNPs be given their own variety name and their offmodal subID such as 526-xxxx.

That could make sense for SNPs under investigation, that at least have a hope of making it to "official" status. For the ones that that are limited a small family group, I don't know that it makes sense to fracture things by separating them out. After all, we all have private SNPs, it is just some of us haven't found them yet.

Certainly I would not want to be pulled out of the already small R-L627 cluster and moved to a separate, much smaller, L625+ cluster dedicated to the male Reynolds descendants of my Dad and two of his brothers...

I think my preference, though, is for the purposes of "clustering," only look at SNPs that are "official" (i.e., on the ISOGG tree).

--david


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: seferhabahir on August 10, 2012, 04:27:32 PM
I think DF13* (or DF13** or DF$$ or whatever you choose to call it) is for now just as important as DF13-, DF63+, and L21* to determine a history and structure of L21. At least until some more major subclades under L21 or DF13 appear.

Can someone list for me the consensus age estimates for the first appearances of L459/Z245, L21, DF13 and DF63?


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 04:32:26 PM
I was really just thinking of the spreadsheet variety naming scheme and not the R-L21 DNA project web page. The reason is to have the ablilty to remove selected varieties to help analyzing a groups related data easier like GD or copying haplotype to another tool.

Mike's spreadsheet has a Downstream SNP column but it is SNP tree based. Where as the Variety column is less detailed but needs the private SNPs identified in format the known subclade SNPs variety is shown. Thats what I was refering to and should have been more clearer.

Private SNPs should be well identified though but out of the scope of Steve's website needs.

MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 04:55:20 PM
I did post a Gen111T on the DF13* varieties that did not include Known Subclades over on the L21 Yahoo forums.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QGglULaRONavdV92xXReNgYfwyv5lndMjMHGywlmExcgnTpKvDakjrv2nGp7W6BPIkbzkdkxY4tKIgCc_T7f2IsJJF0PXA/TMRCA-Gen111T_Estimator_ModMJost-111M-SubcladesAndVariety.pdf


I really should run this again soon with the newest Haplotypes.

MJost
 


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 07:07:27 PM
64047 (Lurz) is R-DF13** (and is also private SNP L526+).  See:
http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf

--david

Thanks. I'll move him and the other one. ;-)


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 07:28:51 PM
I would think that all private SNPs be given their own variety name and their offmodal subID such as 526-xxxx.

I think this would be OK, but only if they have tested all the big 10 (or 9 or whatever else might have been given a designation in the ISOGG tree, like L555) under DF13, and thus look something like this:

C.  DF13+ (L21>DF13; check your DF13+ subclades status)

Ca. DF13* (L21>DF13; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)

Cb. DF13* (L21>DF13>L526; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)

Cc. DF13* (L21>DF13>L583; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)

Need to be sure that the private SNPs are not actually under a known DF13+ subclade. So Norris (L580+) would almost qualify to be listed like this after testing for DF49- which I think is the only one missing. I would think Rich does not want to go down the off-modal subID path, since it would be like recognizing clusters again.

I think I will leave things basically the way I have them. I don't want to get into categorizing all the private SNPs. I created an L583+ category because, even though you two are a very close match, at least there are two different surnames involved.

I would do that for L555, too, if we could ever get a non-Irwin to test positive for it and join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I hope you can get your third L583+ guy to join soon.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 07:59:12 PM
Rich,

I like the new format along with the notes for needs to test which may get some to do some additional testing.

MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 08:12:06 PM
Thanks, Mark. I appreciate it.

I like it, too. It makes some things more difficult, but the benefits make the trade-offs worth it.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 08:28:11 PM
It should be easy move a new member into a SNP group (or needs testing) and or move up the tree to a new snp slot... You dont even have to check any off modals or anything (mostly)

MJost



Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 08:48:53 PM
It should be easy move a new member into a SNP group (or needs testing) and or move up the tree to a new snp slot... You dont even have to check any off modals or anything (mostly)

MJost



True. The biggest drawback is that it is harder now to contact all the guys from a particular region or to find them in the various categories.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 09:53:23 PM
True but thats why you got Mike and his fantastic spreadsheet and people to use it.

MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: OConnor on August 10, 2012, 10:34:57 PM
DF1-, DF13+, DF21-, DF23-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, Z253-, Z255-


at a glance what snp's do I need to test.... to get a DF13$$ or DF13** rating?

I'll order them right away.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 11:06:27 PM
DF1-, DF13+, DF21-, DF23-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, Z253-, Z255-


at a glance what snp's do I need to test.... to get a DF13$$ or DF13** rating?

I'll order them right away.


Well Mike, my old friend, I would say you need to test for DF49, L371, and DF41.

You could test for L513, too, but I wouldn't do that one unless I had 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher, or at least put it off until last. I don't think you have that combination.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: df.reynolds on August 10, 2012, 11:27:32 PM
DF1-, DF13+, DF21-, DF23-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, Z253-, Z255-


at a glance what snp's do I need to test.... to get a DF13$$ or DF13** rating?

I'll order them right away.


Well Mike, my old friend, I would say you need to test for DF49, L371, and DF41.

You could test for L513, too, but I wouldn't do that one unless I had 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher, or at least put it off until last. I don't think you have that combination.

Note he is DF1- == L513-


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 10, 2012, 11:30:39 PM
DF1-, DF13+, DF21-, DF23-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, Z253-, Z255-


at a glance what snp's do I need to test.... to get a DF13$$ or DF13** rating?

I'll order them right away.

Using Mike's L21 Tree, the Bold SNPs are what you would need to be DF13$$. DF49 is in final testing to prove ancestrability and and you are already DF23-.

L513  DF21  DF49(last until final position is known)  Z253  Z255  DF41  L144  L371  L555  L96

Ok, moments after I posted this I read that Rich reports "DF49 is between DF13 and DF23" So test away at all remaining SNPs to get your Double Dollar Sign.

MJost

PS is this a word?? ancestrability or did i just coin it....


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 11:52:23 PM
DF1-, DF13+, DF21-, DF23-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, Z253-, Z255-


at a glance what snp's do I need to test.... to get a DF13$$ or DF13** rating?

I'll order them right away.


Well Mike, my old friend, I would say you need to test for DF49, L371, and DF41.

You could test for L513, too, but I wouldn't do that one unless I had 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher, or at least put it off until last. I don't think you have that combination.

Note he is DF1- == L513-

Thanks. It's late here. I missed that.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 11:53:31 PM
If I were Mike I wouldn't bother with L555. Not unless he matches an Irwin.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: OConnor on August 10, 2012, 11:54:05 PM
well I had a problem finding the path to order the tests...so I emailed FTDNA about testing for DF49, L371, and DF41.

Thanks guys

(Edit)I have no Irwin or the like matches.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 10, 2012, 11:57:03 PM
well I had a problem finding the path to order the tests...so I emailed FTDNA about testing for DF49, L371, and DF41.

Thanks guys


Use the Advanced Orders menu and NOT the Advanced SNPs menu.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: OConnor on August 11, 2012, 12:13:04 AM
Thank-you my old friend..the order is in.

 you should consider a trip up north sometime.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2012, 12:18:02 AM
Thank-you my old friend..the order is in.

 you should consider a trip up north sometime.

I would love to go up there and visit you. I love Canada.

Maybe next summer, if I'm still above ground.

We'll probably both be in the DF13* category soon. ;-)


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2012, 12:22:46 AM
Actually, I'm kind of hoping for a DF49+ result. Really.

That way I can say to Miles (eochaidh), "Miles, I am your father!" ;-)

(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/7447/vader2y.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/vader2y.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: eochaidh on August 11, 2012, 12:26:21 AM
Actually, I'm kind of hoping for a DF49+ result. Really.

That way I can say to Miles (eochaidh), "Miles, I am your father!" ;-)

(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/7447/vader2y.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/vader2y.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Dear God in Heaven!


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2012, 12:33:40 AM
Don't worry. I will probably fade and go into the West and remain DF13*.

(Now I am mixing a Lord of the Rings metaphor with my Star Wars metaphor.)


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: OConnor on August 11, 2012, 12:38:46 AM
ok Papa..(hehe!)

I'm sure I can arrange some free accomedations if you and your's should want to visit.
I'm retired now so I can assist you in finding your way around.






Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2012, 12:41:58 AM
ok Papa..(hehe!)

I'm sure I can arrange some accomedations if you and your's should want to visit.
I'm retired now so I can assist you in finding your way around.


Awesome!

My wife and daughter are in Russia right now visiting my mother-in-law. They're going to Ukraine in a few days, and I gave the wife an FTDNA sample kit to get a sample from a male cousin in her mom's line.

Should be interesting. Not likely to be R1b, but we'll see (if security doesn't confiscate the kit before she gets on the plane to come home).


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 11, 2012, 12:46:47 AM
Well, I'm signing off now, gents.

It's late here, and I'm getting sleepy.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: OConnor on August 11, 2012, 01:01:48 AM
I hope you get your eastern dna sample.



Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: df.reynolds on August 11, 2012, 01:07:34 AM
Actually, I'm kind of hoping for a DF49+ result. Really.

That way I can say to Miles (eochaidh), "Miles, I am your father!" ;-)

(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/7447/vader2y.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/vader2y.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Dear God in Heaven!

This is quite possibly the funniest thing I've ran across this week. :)


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: OConnor on August 11, 2012, 01:10:49 AM
It's right up there with Miles reference to "pots and pans" :))


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 11, 2012, 09:57:57 AM
My wife and daughter are in Russia right now visiting my mother-in-law. They're going to Ukraine in a few days, and I gave the wife an FTDNA sample kit to get a sample from a male cousin in her mom's line.

Should be interesting. Not likely to be R1b, but we'll see (if security doesn't confiscate the kit before she gets on the plane to come home).

From what I understand, you could ship it by DHL back to you and they will mark it on the outer shipping container on the address side with the words “Exempt human specimen” as long as it is packaged in normal return leakproof (for liquids) or siftproof (for solids) primary receptacles that you would normally used.

Since the sample is an EXEMPT human specimen and it does not require special handling or paperwork. I dont think I trust getting it home hand carried via customs, airlines, ect.

MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: secherbernard on August 11, 2012, 12:16:51 PM
f26059   Durall   R-L21/DF13**  101922
DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555- L96- L69- L195-
L319.1- L302- 4c
Durall is L69+ and not L69-. His L69+ result came from 23andMe and his WTY test.
As I am also DF13+ and L69+, I could be L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555- too...


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 11, 2012, 03:39:05 PM
The L69 has an issue then as one can not be correct. He has had FtDNA check it out?

MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: df.reynolds on August 11, 2012, 05:50:45 PM
The L69 has an issue then as one can not be correct. He has had FtDNA check it out?

MJost
L69 is highly recurrent, with well over two dozen state changes present in reported 23andME data. I believe there are at least three state changes in R1b alone. Thomas Krahn does not include on the Draft Tree, ISOGG does not include on its trees.

In this particular case, the two data points represent two different state changes (mutation events).

Regards,
david


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: seferhabahir on August 12, 2012, 11:36:42 AM
I created an L583+ category because, even though you two are a very close match, at least there are two different surnames involved. I would do that for L555, too, if we could ever get a non-Irwin to test positive for it and join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I hope you can get your third L583+ guy to join soon.

He did this morning and is now listed in the L583+ category. I asked him to fill in his paternal surname (which is Levin) so it will show up. This surname is further evidence that L583+ is a reliable marker for L21 Ashkenazi Levites. The three of us are the only documented Levites in the 1111EE cluster, as far as I know.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on August 12, 2012, 11:47:51 AM
I created an L583+ category because, even though you two are a very close match, at least there are two different surnames involved. I would do that for L555, too, if we could ever get a non-Irwin to test positive for it and join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I hope you can get your third L583+ guy to join soon.

He did this morning and is now listed in the L583+ category. I asked him to fill in his paternal surname (which is Levin) so it will show up. This surname is further evidence that L583+ is a reliable marker for L21 Ashkenazi Levites. The three of us are the only documented Levites in the 1111EE cluster, as far as I know.

That makes L583 more significant than its current numbers might otherwise indicate.

I think I did the right thing in creating a category for it.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: seferhabahir on August 12, 2012, 01:49:52 PM
That makes L583 more significant than its current numbers might otherwise indicate.

I think I did the right thing in creating a category for it.

I do too, so thank you. Can't help but think that the three of us are just a small remnant of a larger and more diverse haplogroup that existed in the past, but for historical reasons is now greatly reduced. Also, can't help wonder what the thinking would be on L21/DF13 if there were 300 people that tested positive for L583 instead of 3. I guess we might assume a larger number in the same way that some multiply the number of tested French by 100 to get more realistic scenarios.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 13, 2012, 01:07:12 AM
.... Also, can't help wonder what the thinking would be on L21/DF13 if there were 300 people that tested positive for L583 instead of 3. I guess we might assume a larger number in the same way that some multiply the number of tested French by 100 to get more realistic scenarios.

I encourage you to recruit possible matches, get them to test deeper and confirm L583 status, then keeping pushing the envelope on L583's known STR signature until you get a larger group validated.  You are right, size matters, but sometimes it takes a lot of digging. If you get the snowball going, sometimes it keeps rolling on its own, getting bigger on the way.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: seferhabahir on August 13, 2012, 02:22:58 AM
.... Also, can't help wonder what the thinking would be on L21/DF13 if there were 300 people that tested positive for L583 instead of 3. I guess we might assume a larger number in the same way that some multiply the number of tested French by 100 to get more realistic scenarios.

I encourage you to recruit possible matches, get them to test deeper and confirm L583 status, then keeping pushing the envelope on L583's known STR signature until you get a larger group validated.  You are right, size matters, but sometimes it takes a lot of digging. If you get the snowball going, sometimes it keeps rolling on its own, getting bigger on the way.


Sure, I'll keep trying as best I can. You're more optimistic than I am. It's a pretty wet noodle to push, and new matches are hard to come by. Based on the 67 marker test results I've seen so far, I think the signature for L583 is awfully narrow. I have two 63/67 matches that came in L583- and the other 67 marker candidates I know about do not match what I consider to be the right signature for this SNP. Getting older test kits to upgrade to 67 markers may not be feasible unless I can get them to test L583 first since it is much less expensive. But it's like pulling teeth to even get an email response from any of my non-67 marker matches.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: seferhabahir on August 17, 2012, 07:55:50 PM

I encourage you to recruit possible matches, get them to test deeper and confirm L583 status, then keeping pushing the envelope on L583's known STR signature until you get a larger group validated.  You are right, size matters, but sometimes it takes a lot of digging. If you get the snowball going, sometimes it keeps rolling on its own, getting bigger on the way.


Sure, I'll keep trying as best I can. You're more optimistic than I am. It's a pretty wet noodle to push, and new matches are hard to come by. Based on the 67 marker test results I've seen so far, I think the signature for L583 is awfully narrow. I have two 63/67 matches that came in L583- and the other 67 marker candidates I know about do not match what I consider to be the right signature for this SNP. Getting older test kits to upgrade to 67 markers may not be feasible unless I can get them to test L583 first since it is much less expensive. But it's like pulling teeth to even get an email response from any of my non-67 marker matches.


OK,

I just sent in an application to FTDNA to start up an R-DF13 1111EE Project. I'll try to get as many of the 1111EE people as I can to join it, and use it as a venue for getting them to consider upgrading their STR markers and/or to test for L583. Probably I will break it into three subgroups (A. L583?, B. L583+, and C. L583-). There are three known to be in Group B, and four known to be in Group C. The challenge will be to get people to join that would go into Group A. Maybe a cool logo similar to those little CMH or WAMH banners FTDNA hand out would help. I doubt it, but you never know.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on August 26, 2012, 02:21:21 AM
I have pulled the DF13 XSubclades & XPredicted Subclades a short time ago and created a new Fluxus. I have layed out the best set of branches for what I call the Right main Branch which is the Scots 1030-A-Sc Cluster and some pre branches. Download and then Rotate the PDF image 90 degress for a better view or just print it out. Screen zoom allows better viewing. I have been working on the Left side view of the remaining DF13 xSubs.
 
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNZkQtNFZoc051MXc/edit

Note there are two other section branches shown on page three and four which have the following varieties shown.

From node m479: 2223, 1214, 1130-A-1, 144-1399(missed removing these guys but this was interesting though), 2323, 2510, 141410.

From Node m331: 1212, 1424, 1609, 1222, 711, 1024, 45510, 2217-B and 101922.

The last PDF page show the entire main right branch as plotted.

I uses the 30 year generation when I calculated the years between mutations from MarkoH's newest rates.

CumRates%  RatePerEvent  #ofTransmissionsPerMutationAtMutation  Rate PerSTRMutation(BE)  PerMutatationAt25yrGen  PerMutatationAt30yrGen
0.172844  0.002580  388  5.8  145  174

MJost


Title: R1b-L21: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 28, 2012, 02:29:46 PM
There is a pretty firm variety that I had labeled 9926. They appear to be DF13* although I don't think they've tested for DF41 yet. I see RMS has recruited a few of them to join the L21 project.


f186947   Edgcombe   R-L21/DF13*   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f231691   Edgecombe   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f202149   Edgcombe   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f192153   Edgcombe   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Cornwall, Launcells
f186676   Edgecomb   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth
f106895   Edgecombe   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Abbot
f219514   Edgcombe   R-L21   9926   England
f218064   Edgcombe   R-L21   9926   England
f227857   Shazell   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Milton Abbott
f232852   Shazell   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Milton Abbott
f192364   Edgecomb   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 28, 2012, 10:24:36 PM
DF13* people, like L21* people, are special.

I've updated the R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet. I've done a little work on the DF13* varieties.

Since it is so old, I moved DF41 up as a requirement for DF13* status as one of DF13's Big Six subclades. All DF13* people, in this version of the spreadsheet, are DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41-.

In honor of the aggressive DF13* testers, I'm updating their variety labels. Any variety label that begins with "13" has at least one person that is confirmed DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41-. The assignment of variety labels are speculative since they are STR based, so I still advise testing to your terminal SNP, but I just wanted to make it clearer where the DF13* fall.

All L21 confirmed and suspected haplotypes, including 111 STR haplotypes:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip

Haplogroup Tree Descendancy Chart: Graphic tree chart of the SNP levels/positioning in the Clades table:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: secherbernard on August 31, 2012, 08:45:57 AM
I am going to test the six big DF13 subclades. I ordered L513 and DF21 for the beginning.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: secherbernard on September 01, 2012, 12:20:23 PM
Thanks to Mike to tell me that Pitts kit 217417 is in the 1420 cluster with me. He just joined the L21+ project. I exchanged email with his  daughter: Jane Williams Pitts. She just ordered for his father the following markers: DF13, L69 and DYS464X. I have also an interesting result for DYS464X with a micro-allele: cccc.3 It will be interesting to know if Pitts has the same results than me.



Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on September 03, 2012, 12:55:54 AM
I made a list back around the first part on August of the DF13* xsubclades xPredicted subclades and ran a fluxus on those 618 haplotypes rooted with L21. I created three groups as they filled the screen, Left Right and bottom groups. The right group is mainly the very large Scots variety 1030-A-Sc.

This Right page has several varieties shown: From node m479: 2223, 1214, 1130-A-1, 144-1399(missed removing these guys but this was interesting though), 2323, 2510, 141410.

From Node m331: varieties 1212, 1424, 1609, 1222, 711, 1024, 45510, 2217-B and 101922.




The left PDF contains most of the 1511's. The bottom section was split into A, B and C pdf's.

'BottA' page has these varities 1424, 1014,1810, 1609, 1130-A-2, 2510, 9910, 2410, 1066A, 1310, 1523, 1221, 2113, 643, 14611

'BottB' contains these varities:  1415, 111311, 1528, 111314, 1111E, 45410, 1114, 1123, 49-1411, 1199, 25911, 9926, 1014-A, 49-1226, 2517, 1111
 
'BottC' has 9919(mostly), 1523, 1221, 13-526, 91612, 921, 1114, 1017, 1613, 9915, 1423

They are posted on Yahoo but here is a folder with the five PDFs in my Google documents storage

https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNbExVSXJsWUMxVzA/edit


MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: seferhabahir on September 03, 2012, 07:26:23 PM

I encourage you to recruit possible matches, get them to test deeper and confirm L583 status, then keeping pushing the envelope on L583's known STR signature until you get a larger group validated.  You are right, size matters, but sometimes it takes a lot of digging. If you get the snowball going, sometimes it keeps rolling on its own, getting bigger on the way.


Sure, I'll keep trying as best I can. You're more optimistic than I am. It's a pretty wet noodle to push, and new matches are hard to come by. Based on the 67 marker test results I've seen so far, I think the signature for L583 is awfully narrow. I have two 63/67 matches that came in L583- and the other 67 marker candidates I know about do not match what I consider to be the right signature for this SNP. Getting older test kits to upgrade to 67 markers may not be feasible unless I can get them to test L583 first since it is much less expensive. But it's like pulling teeth to even get an email response from any of my non-67 marker matches.


I just emailed known 1111EE cluster folks that have had a 67 marker test and have not yet tested for L583, and asked them to consider testing for it. We'll see what happens. One of the known 67 marker 1111EE people turned all their FTDNA contact information private so I decided to skip him. I actually think he did this soon after I contacted him in April about an L583 test. Gotta wonder why they even bother to sign the waiver and supply their email if this is their reaction to an honest inquiry (see the above comment about wet noodles).


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: rms2 on September 03, 2012, 07:44:56 PM

I encourage you to recruit possible matches, get them to test deeper and confirm L583 status, then keeping pushing the envelope on L583's known STR signature until you get a larger group validated.  You are right, size matters, but sometimes it takes a lot of digging. If you get the snowball going, sometimes it keeps rolling on its own, getting bigger on the way.


Sure, I'll keep trying as best I can. You're more optimistic than I am. It's a pretty wet noodle to push, and new matches are hard to come by. Based on the 67 marker test results I've seen so far, I think the signature for L583 is awfully narrow. I have two 63/67 matches that came in L583- and the other 67 marker candidates I know about do not match what I consider to be the right signature for this SNP. Getting older test kits to upgrade to 67 markers may not be feasible unless I can get them to test L583 first since it is much less expensive. But it's like pulling teeth to even get an email response from any of my non-67 marker matches.


I just emailed known 1111EE cluster folks that have had a 67 marker test and have not yet tested for L583, and asked them to consider testing for it. We'll see what happens. One of the known 67 marker 1111EE people turned all their FTDNA contact information private so I decided to skip him. I actually think he did this soon after I contacted him in April about an L583 test. Gotta wonder why they even bother to sign the waiver and supply their email if this is their reaction to an honest inquiry (see the above comment about wet noodles).

I know that response all too well, so I feel your pain. My problem is a really close match born in England who doesn't match the other guys in his surname project but matches me and some other guys with my last name.


Title: Re: R1b-L21: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Dubhthach on September 04, 2012, 05:07:09 AM
There is a pretty firm variety that I had labeled 9926. They appear to be DF13* although I don't think they've tested for DF41 yet. I see RMS has recruited a few of them to join the L21 project.


f186947   Edgcombe   R-L21/DF13*   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f231691   Edgecombe   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f202149   Edgcombe   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f192153   Edgcombe   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Cornwall, Launcells
f186676   Edgecomb   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth
f106895   Edgecombe   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Abbot
f219514   Edgcombe   R-L21   9926   England
f218064   Edgcombe   R-L21   9926   England
f227857   Shazell   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Milton Abbott
f232852   Shazell   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Milton Abbott
f192364   Edgecomb   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe


I believe that 186947 is DF41-, on an earlier version of Alex Williamson tree he had clustered near to me. I recall he ordered DF41 after I got my positive result but came back as DF41-

There is a mail from this user in the L21 yahoo group mentioning his negative SNP's including DF41.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Title: Re: R1b-L21: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: df.reynolds on September 04, 2012, 06:16:03 AM
There is a pretty firm variety that I had labeled 9926. They appear to be DF13* although I don't think they've tested for DF41 yet. I see RMS has recruited a few of them to join the L21 project.


f186947   Edgcombe   R-L21/DF13*   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f231691   Edgecombe   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f202149   Edgcombe   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f192153   Edgcombe   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Cornwall, Launcells
f186676   Edgecomb   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth
f106895   Edgecombe   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Abbot
f219514   Edgcombe   R-L21   9926   England
f218064   Edgcombe   R-L21   9926   England
f227857   Shazell   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Milton Abbott
f232852   Shazell   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Milton Abbott
f192364   Edgecomb   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe


I believe that 186947 is DF41-, on an earlier version of Alex Williamson tree he had clustered near to me. I recall he ordered DF41 after I got my positive result but came back as DF41-

There is a mail from this user in the L21 yahoo group mentioning his negative SNP's including DF41.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I was looking at this lot a few days ago and if you combine the results from 106895 and 186947, they are R-DF13**.  Interesting surname project, there are R-DF13**, R-M222, and I2b1 folks all claiming descent from the same Patriarch. :)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Edgcomb/default.aspx?section=ysnp

--david


Title: Re: R1b-L21: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: razyn on September 04, 2012, 08:41:37 AM

I was looking at this lot a few days ago and if you combine the results from 106895 and 186947, they are R-DF13**.

Don't know if you'd routinely have noticed that one of them (186947) is in this project, with a son, showing one mutation @ 67 markers:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Father-Son-Brother/default.aspx


Title: Re: R1b-L21: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: on the edge on September 04, 2012, 09:13:00 AM
There is a pretty firm variety that I had labeled 9926. They appear to be DF13* although I don't think they've tested for DF41 yet. I see RMS has recruited a few of them to join the L21 project.


f186947   Edgcombe   R-L21/DF13*   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f231691   Edgecombe   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f202149   Edgcombe   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f192153   Edgcombe   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Cornwall, Launcells
f186676   Edgecomb   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Plymouth
f106895   Edgecombe   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Abbot
f219514   Edgcombe   R-L21   9926   England
f218064   Edgcombe   R-L21   9926   England
f227857   Shazell   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Milton Abbott
f232852   Shazell   R-L21   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Milton Abbott
f192364   Edgecomb   zzL21predicted   9926   England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe


I believe that 186947 is DF41-, on an earlier version of Alex Williamson tree he had clustered near to me. I recall he ordered DF41 after I got my positive result but came back as DF41-

There is a mail from this user in the L21 yahoo group mentioning his negative SNP's including DF41.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I was looking at this lot a few days ago and if you combine the results from 106895 and 186947, they are R-DF13**.  Interesting surname project, there are R-DF13**, R-M222, and I2b1 folks all claiming descent from the same Patriarch. :)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Edgcomb/default.aspx?section=ysnp

--david

Hi David,
As you have pointed out, we are collectively DF13**. Not sure what to do now!
The R-M222 and I2b1 individuals are, we have now established, the results of quite recent NPEs.
Cheers,
Eddy Edgecombe      


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mike Walsh on September 05, 2012, 10:06:05 AM
I was just asked for this on another forum.

I count 33 people who are DF13*, that is DF13+ and negative for all of the Big Six. I guess you could call this the proven non-Bix Six people.

This is a special group of exploratory SNP testers that are contributing to the whole community's knowledge of the L21 phylogenetic while they narrow themselves to a smaller and smaller paragroup, finding their own SNPs on the way (over time.) The highest GD to the modal is 21 @67 but this will grow as testing continues. Things like TMRCA calculations are not as relevant for this group because it is not really a group with a most recent common ancestor. It's partial group and many members may be more related to some component of the Bix Six than to each other.

Geographically we find DF13* people from the British Isles

England __ 8
Ireland __ 6
Scotland _ 2
Wales ____ 1


We also find DF13* people from Denmark, France, Germany, Belarus, Romania and Spain (2).

These are not scientific surveys but given the higher testing rates in Ireland than in England and the dramatically higher rates in the Isles versus the continent, this may be a bit of a clue that DF13* people are quite geographically scattered. The proportions of DF13* to the Big Six appear to be higher on the continent than on the Isles.

Again, this is very speculative as the data we have is heavily biased, particularly to the British Isles, and particularly towards immigrants to America.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 30, 2012, 10:58:33 PM
Variance for DF13 xSubclades

DF13*
Intraclades Gen's  StdDevInGen   YBP  +-YBP   Var   SD   Count
FRA All   118.6   32.7   3,557.7   980.0   13.179   3.630   N=8
Wales    112.2   31.8   3,366.3   953.3   12.470   3.531   N=12
ENG ALL   109.6   31.4   3,287.5   942.1   12.178   3.490   N=45
Ger ALL    109.5   31.4   3,284.5   941.6   12.167   3.488   N=9
IRE-Ulst &
SCO-So   107.8   31.1   3,234.5   934.4   11.982   3.461   N=20
DF13* ALL
               107.1   31.0   3,211.8   931.2   11.897   3.449   N=279
ENG SW    105.4   30.8   3,162.4   924.0   11.714   3.423   N=7
IRE ALL    100.7   30.1   3,021.6   903.2   11.193   3.346   N=58
Ire Ulster   99.3   29.9   2,978.4   896.7   11.033   3.322   N=18
Ire Munst   97.7   29.6   2,930.3   889.4   10.855   3.295   N=11
NO Baltic    97.0   29.5   2,909.6   886.3   10.778   3.283   N=9
SCO ALL    92.8   28.9   2,783.5   866.8   10.311   3.211   N=60
SCO No     90.1   28.5   2,704.4   854.4   10.018   3.165   N=8
Sco W&C    85.4   27.7   2,561.1   831.5   9.487   3.080   N=13


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mike Forsythe on October 31, 2012, 09:55:12 AM
DF13*
Intraclades Gen's  StdDevInGen   YBP  +-YBP   Var   SD   Count
FRA All   118.6   32.7   3,557.7   980.0   13.179   3.630   N=8
Wales    112.2   31.8   3,366.3   953.3   12.470   3.531   N=12
ENG ALL   109.6   31.4   3,287.5   942.1   12.178   3.490   N=45
Ger ALL    109.5   31.4   3,284.5   941.6   12.167   3.488   N=9
IRE-Ulst &
SCO-So   107.8   31.1   3,234.5   934.4   11.982   3.461   N=20
DF13* ALL
               107.1   31.0   3,211.8   931.2   11.897   3.449   N=279
ENG SW    105.4   30.8   3,162.4   924.0   11.714   3.423   N=7
IRE ALL    100.7   30.1   3,021.6   903.2   11.193   3.346   N=58
Ire Ulster   99.3   29.9   2,978.4   896.7   11.033   3.322   N=18
Ire Munst   97.7   29.6   2,930.3   889.4   10.855   3.295   N=11
NO Baltic    97.0   29.5   2,909.6   886.3   10.778   3.283   N=9
SCO ALL    92.8   28.9   2,783.5   866.8   10.311   3.211   N=60
SCO No     90.1   28.5   2,704.4   854.4   10.018   3.165   N=8
Sco W&C    85.4   27.7   2,561.1   831.5   9.487   3.080   N=13

Mark or someone , would you tell me what this means...Thanks!


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 31, 2012, 11:10:40 AM
DF13*
Intraclades Gen's  StdDevInGen   YBP  +-YBP   Var   SD   Count


Mark or someone , would you tell me what this means...Thanks!
These are DF13*'s (xSubclades) Haplotypes categorized by region and sorted by variance (larger is generally older).

I will post a list that includes varieties and the above shortly.

MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 31, 2012, 11:17:08 AM

TMRCA-DF13* x Subclades showing Varieties and Regions with Variance sorted

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNbXFHNDJ0ZmhlUm8/edit

MJost


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: on the edge on October 31, 2012, 11:43:41 AM
Mark, you appear to have left variety 9926 off this list. The 10 or so of us (Edgcombes) are collectively DF13** and originate from the SW England. I would really like to see what your estimate of our TMRCA is. Thanks.


Title: Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?
Post by: Mark Jost on October 31, 2012, 12:17:57 PM
Mark, you appear to have left variety 9926 off this list. The 10 or so of us (Edgcombes) are collectively DF13** and originate from the SW England. I would really like to see what your estimate of our TMRCA is. Thanks.

Yep, missed it, I updated the PDF.

Your surname variants are
N=9
YBP 907.4     +- 494.9

f218064   Edgcombe   R1b-L21
f192153   Edgcombe   zzL21suspect
f219514   Edgcombe   R1b-L21
f186947   Edgcombe   R1b-L21>DF13*
f202149   Edgcombe   zzL21suspect
f192364   Edgecomb   zzL21suspect
f186676   Edgecomb   R1b-L21
f106895   Edgecombe   R1b-L21
f231691   Edgecombe   R1b-L21

 

MJost