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Title: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Bren123 on July 24, 2012, 01:19:06 AM
Not this load of nonsense again!

Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.
 
Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.
 
Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.
 
The project surveyed 2,000 people in rural areas across Britain.
 
Participants, as well as their parents and grandparents, had to be born in those areas to be included in the study.

http://www.amren.com/news/2012/06/welsh-people-could-be-most-ancient-in-uk-dna-suggests/


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Castlebob on July 24, 2012, 01:49:08 AM
I wish these reports/studies would publish their Y-DNA data. That would be useful!
A few years ago I read that DNA studies were due to take place in Cumbria & Denmark. I haven't heard what the outcome of either was. Again, I wonder if they'll report anything other than vague, sweeping statements.
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 24, 2012, 01:59:43 AM
This is what I have always thought just looking at Welsh DNA and it is a rule that the most ancient people are in the Western corner of a country if invasions came from East.
Also the R-L21 of Richard Stevens seems older than others and probably from Wales etc. etc.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Bren123 on July 24, 2012, 02:10:47 AM
This is what I have always thought just looking at Welsh DNA and it is a rule that the most ancient people are in the Western corner of a country if invasions came from East.
Also the R-L21 of Richard Stevens seems older than others and probably from Wales etc. etc.

Rubbish R-L21 is nowhere near that age and it is also the predominate haplogoup,I suppose it's poosble that E1b1b at that early stage!


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 24, 2012, 03:49:34 AM
Rubbish R-L21 is nowhere near that age and it is also the predominate haplogoup,I suppose it's poosble that E1b1b at that early stage!

Of course I didn’t mean that R-L21 is 10000 years old, only that also the R-L21 of Rich Stevens could be one of the first R-L21 arrived in the Isles: we will see when his SNP test arrives.
“Rubbish R-L21”?

Difficult to say which haplogroups arrived in the Isles 10000 years ago, but there are many R1b1*, also R1a-M420*, and of course E-V68 and E-V257 were present in Italy at that time (or in Iberia) and may have come to the Isles with many other ancient haplogroups.
Also the mtDNA should be investigated. I have done it for my K1a1b1e, but also yesterday with K1a2, more ancient, born in Italy probably, and present it too in the Isles with the “Italian” mutation A16399G etc. etc.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 24, 2012, 04:00:46 AM
Also K1a2 GQ281051 with the many and abundant mutations in HVRI (T16093C C16021T T16224C C16278T T16311C T16519C) is from the Isles because on SMGF there 5 people from the US of probably British descent.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Castlebob on July 24, 2012, 04:16:04 AM
Wales isn't a country I've studied in great depth, but I did try & find out what the oldest surnames/lineages were there. I gather the Pugh surname is as old as most. Looking at the SNPs for the surname shows a vast majority of R1b1a2 testees. Those who have tested further seem to be split reasonably evenly between R1b1a2a1a1b & R1b1a2a1a1b4. L21- is evident in the former, while L21+ is in the latter.

I'd like to see some of the L21- chaps test L238 etc. I know that a Jones & Williams have tested L238-. I believe someone from Bristol is also L238-. Of the 6 or 7 who are L238- etc, several are now testing for Z245 & L459. I hope to have my results in soon, & am keen to see what they show. Probably negative!!!

Cheers,
Bob
EDIT: I've just looked at Powell - similar to Pugh.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: rms2 on July 24, 2012, 06:47:33 AM
I think Gioiello was just being facetious and having some fun, since the idea of "invasions out of the East" is one of his pet peeves, and he knows full well that my haplotype isn't all that far off the WAMH. I am a typical DF13+, apparently like most men of British and Irish ancestry.

It would be nice if we knew what aspect of Welsh dna this study is talking about.

Besides, most of my matches come from the West Midlands and not Wales.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: ironroad41 on July 24, 2012, 06:56:15 AM
Not this load of nonsense again!

Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.
 
Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.
 
Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.
 
The project surveyed 2,000 people in rural areas across Britain.
 
Participants, as well as their parents and grandparents, had to be born in those areas to be included in the study.

http://www.amren.com/news/2012/06/welsh-people-could-be-most-ancient-in-uk-dna-suggests/

What is your basis for calling this nonsense?


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: rms2 on July 24, 2012, 07:01:39 AM
This sounds interesting:

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have “fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

“And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago”.


That "Ireland . . . and France" bit sounds like L21. There's plenty of L21 in England, too, but perhaps they're looking at overall percentages. Wales as a whole probably has a higher frequency of L21 than England. But maybe a large part of this is autosomal. It would be interesting to see the report itself.

Sounds like it is coming out of the People of the British Isles Project, since the Wellcome Trust was mentioned.

I hope they don't try to tie that "last Ice Age" stuff to L21.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: ironroad41 on July 24, 2012, 07:15:17 AM
This sounds interesting:

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have “fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

“And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago”.


That "Ireland . . . and France" bit sounds like L21. There's plenty of L21 in England, too, but perhaps they're looking at overall percentages. Wales as a whole probably has a higher frequency of L21 than England. But maybe a large part of this is autosomal. It would be interesting to see the report itself.

Sounds like it is coming out of the People of the British Isles Project, since the Wellcome Trust was mentioned.

I hope they don't try to tie that "last Ice Age" stuff to L21.

I wish someone would identify the haplotypes of the early inhabitants of Scotland/Midlands, the so-called Caledonians and Maetae (sp).  These folks were "native " to the area, it is all they apparently knew until Rome came.

What if R-L21 turns out to be older than is commonly thought on this board?  Would it surprise you?  Of course, but thats because of the acceptance that variance/diversity describe the mutational Y STR process.  I think that has been shown to be questionable at best.  So, in some sense, you are back to square one on dating.

I, freely admit that I don't have a handle on times greater than 2K back in time.  What data do you have that says it is so and how did you verify it??


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: rms2 on July 24, 2012, 07:40:47 AM
It would surprise me. I have never believed R1b of any kind has been in Western Europe since before the last Ice Age, and I still don't. That would put it too far from home, too soon, and with far less diversity than it should have, if it were that old.

I think the "Ice Age R1b" thing is an artifact of a number of errors. Probably foremost among them was the old idea, which goes back at least to the 19th century, that the Basques are some sort of Paleolithic remnant population. Due to that idea, scientists were predisposed to see any y haplogroup predominant among the Basques as the paramount European aboriginal y haplogroup. It happened to be R1b, so - voila! - there you have it: we're all the descendants of Cro Magnon Man.

There is also a history of peopling, or of wanting to people, the "Celtic Fringe" with a more primitive, more barbaric, and less enlightened form of humanity. That made the political domination of the area more palatable. I'm not saying that is the modern motive, but it certainly informed the opinions of the past, and those opinions became fossilized and have been inherited intact.

Then you have the fact that certain European flora and fauna apparently did move out of the F-C Refuge after the LGM. The natural inclination, upon seeing that, would be to conclude that the majority y- haplogroup in western Europe must have been among them.

Certainly some elements of the idea are probably true. Perhaps elements of a Paleolithic or Mesolithic heritage are traceable in west European autosomal dna and perhaps even in its mtDNA.

But I strongly doubt that any kind of R1b stems from that long ago in western Europe. Paleolithic y-dna in western Europe probably either no longer exists or exists only in vestiges here and there. Or it may be best represented by its downstream descendants in y haplogroup I.

Time and more ancient y-dna findings might eventually tell the tale.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Castlebob on July 24, 2012, 07:51:26 AM
An open mind & the ability to think laterally have certainly been necessary in genealogical studies, & I suppose it's much the same with DNA. As ever, we're hampered by a lack of Y-DNA from several countries of great interest to us. Also, it can be tough persuading people to upgrade their tests - particularly in these times of financial constraints.
I'm banking on a lottery win!
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: rms2 on July 24, 2012, 08:09:57 AM
An open mind & the ability to think laterally have certainly been necessary in genealogical studies, & I suppose it's much the same with DNA. As ever, we're hampered by a lack of Y-DNA from several countries of great interest to us. Also, it can be tough persuading people to upgrade their tests - particularly in these times of financial constraints.
I'm banking on a lottery win!
Cheers,
Bob


I think a problem we face is that a lot of bigshots hitched their wagons to the "Paleolithic R1b" star very early on. Difficult for them to reverse course now. Saying, "I was wrong", in the scientific world involves a loss of prestige. It means one might not be such a godlike, farsighted genius after all. Rather than risk that, it's easier just to dig in one's heels, barricade the Lascaux Caves, and start defending the old idea.

Expect it. Busby may have been the first shot, as it seemed specifically targeted at Balaresque's paper.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Castlebob on July 24, 2012, 08:30:55 AM
True. I know of several genealogists who made huge claims, were proved to be wrong, then disappeared from the scene rather than lose face.
I know it's a bit bland, but generally it's better to say "I'm leaning heavily towards this theory..." , rather than stating something is 100% rock solid. At least it allows for some back-tracking!
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: eochaidh on July 24, 2012, 08:40:31 AM
This sounds interesting:

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have “fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

“And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago”.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Autosomal scores may fit in with this since I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian (mostly from Brittany, Normandy and La Rochelle).

I have a higher Caucasus score than Irish testers, about 3% higher than the highest. However, my Caucausus score is equal to that of a few Cornish testers and at times even lower than some French and Dutch testers.

I think this could show a greater Neolithic Farmer influence and especially G2a. Then again, it could be a later Alanic G2a. The Alans were thought to have settled in Brittany, Cornwall and Wales.

That "Ireland . . . and France" bit sounds like L21. There's plenty of L21 in England, too, but perhaps they're looking at overall percentages. Wales as a whole probably has a higher frequency of L21 than England. But maybe a large part of this is autosomal. It would be interesting to see the report itself.

Sounds like it is coming out of the People of the British Isles Project, since the Wellcome Trust was mentioned.

I hope they don't try to tie that "last Ice Age" stuff to L21.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: rms2 on July 24, 2012, 08:42:03 AM
True. I know of several genealogists who made huge claims, were proved to be wrong, then disappeared from the scene rather than lose face.
I know it's a bit bland, but generally it's better to say "I'm leaning heavily towards this theory..." , rather than stating something is 100% rock solid. At least it allows for some back-tracking!
Cheers,
Bob


Well, if it turns out I'm wrong and they find an R1b European caveman tomorrow, I have no reputation to guard. I'll just say, "Well, I'll be!", and go on with my life.

I don't think that's going to happen, but you never know.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 24, 2012, 08:44:45 AM
This sounds interesting:

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have “fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

“And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago”.


That "Ireland . . . and France" bit sounds like L21. There's plenty of L21 in England, too, but perhaps they're looking at overall percentages. Wales as a whole probably has a higher frequency of L21 than England. But maybe a large part of this is autosomal. It would be interesting to see the report itself.

Sounds like it is coming out of the People of the British Isles Project, since the Wellcome Trust was mentioned.

I hope they don't try to tie that "last Ice Age" stuff to L21.

I wish someone would identify the haplotypes of the early inhabitants of Scotland/Midlands, the so-called Caledonians and Maetae (sp).  These folks were "native " to the area, it is all they apparently knew until Rome came.

What if R-L21 turns out to be older than is commonly thought on this board?  Would it surprise you?  Of course, but thats because of the acceptance that variance/diversity describe the mutational Y STR process.  I think that has been shown to be questionable at best.  So, in some sense, you are back to square one on dating.

I, freely admit that I don't have a handle on times greater than 2K back in time.  What data do you have that says it is so and how did you verify it??

If L21 turns out to be older than Neolithic in Western Europe that would be a surprise to me, but if it is so be it. I just am not convinced this of high probability.

We are not back to square one on estimating TMRCAs or relative aging. We are not even sure what kind of DNA this guy is evaluating and what his data and rationale are.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: OConnor on July 24, 2012, 08:55:11 AM
I suspect after jumping on, and off the Paleo dna bandwagon many people will sit in the wings waiting for more concrete information. Once bit, twice shy.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: rms2 on July 24, 2012, 09:05:20 AM
I suspect after jumping on, and off the Paleo dna bandwagon many people will sit in the wings waiting for more concrete information. Once bit, twice shy.

You're probably right. I suspect some of them are also tired of the debate or have just given up on the possibility of ever knowing who is right.

I feel that way about the whole "Indo-European" thing. It's like week-old, curdled milk to me now. Maybe eventually it will turn to cheese, and I'll find my interest in it renewed. :-)


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: rms2 on July 24, 2012, 11:38:41 AM
By the way, I split the argument about whether or not L21 is truly Celtic into a separate thread.

So, please stick to the Welsh in this one!


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: sernam on July 24, 2012, 12:13:44 PM
 Deja vu all over again? This was mentioned some time ago, on a once promising but now embarrassing thread that’s been closed.   It’s not just about Y.  

http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/genetic-maps/
   


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Castlebob on July 24, 2012, 01:16:09 PM
I sometimes use Ancestry's Surname Origins map to see where hot-spots of various surnames occur. Admittedly these use data from 19th C Census returns, so one has to factor in the magnet effect of large cities attracting workers from outlying areas.
Among the surnames I recently entered  were Pugh, Powell, Jones & Williams. The results tend to be more or less as one might expect - heaviest in Wales & Cheshire, then petering out the further east you go.
I've done similar with a variety of surnames, for different reasons, & I have to say that the areas one might expect a heavier Brythonic Celt presence, ie the far western counties of England, Wales, Strathclyde etc , dovetails with the maps one finds describing 6th C British tribes.
I appreciate Y-DNA results are somewhat skewed by the heavy influence of testees from Britain, Ireland & N America, but it is still fascinating to see how various patterns emerge.
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Bren123 on July 24, 2012, 02:09:17 PM
Not this load of nonsense again!

Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.
 
Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.
 
Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.
 
The project surveyed 2,000 people in rural areas across Britain.
 
Participants, as well as their parents and grandparents, had to be born in those areas to be included in the study.

http://www.amren.com/news/2012/06/welsh-people-could-be-most-ancient-in-uk-dna-suggests/

What is your basis for calling this nonsense?

Well because R-L21 is nowhere near that age and like I mentioned it is the predominate haplogroup in Wales.Another point is that where is the aDNA to back this up? That is why I consider it nonsense and basically a rehash of sykes and then oppenheimer's material!


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: eochaidh on July 24, 2012, 02:48:20 PM
Not this load of nonsense again!

Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.
 
Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.
 
Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.
 
The project surveyed 2,000 people in rural areas across Britain.
 
Participants, as well as their parents and grandparents, had to be born in those areas to be included in the study.

http://www.amren.com/news/2012/06/welsh-people-could-be-most-ancient-in-uk-dna-suggests/

What is your basis for calling this nonsense?

Well because R-L21 is nowhere near that age and like I mentioned it is the predominate haplogroup in Wales.Another point is that where is the aDNA to back this up? That is why I consider it nonsense and basically a rehash of sykes and then oppenheimer's material!

I'd imagine that they are only going by Autosomal DNA tests, and that they have probably broken things down to results that are assigned to Hunter Gatherer, Neolithic Farmer and Bronze Age arrivals. Like I mentioned before, it appears that Welsh and Cornish may show higher Caucasus scores that others in Britain or Ireland, and that may be assigned to Neolithic arrivals.

I wouldn't imagine that they are using Y-DNA to make this assertion at all.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: sernam on July 24, 2012, 03:22:09 PM
I'd imagine that they are only going by Autosomal DNA tests, and that they have probably broken things down to results that are assigned to Hunter Gatherer, Neolithic Farmer and Bronze Age arrivals. Like I mentioned before, it appears that Welsh and Cornish may show higher Caucasus scores that others in Britain or Ireland, and that may be assigned to Neolithic arrivals.

I wouldn't imagine that they are using Y-DNA to make this assertion at all.


" Our map is based on about 600,000 genetic markers across the whole genome, excluding the mtDNA and Y-DNA for the time being. mtDNA and Y-DNA will only show the history of those particular bits of the genome, whereas our analysis looks at the whole genome. We do have data on both mtDNA and Y-DNA that we plan to look at as well and compare to our current analysis but we haven't managed to do this yet."


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: eochaidh on July 24, 2012, 03:29:00 PM
I'd imagine that they are only going by Autosomal DNA tests, and that they have probably broken things down to results that are assigned to Hunter Gatherer, Neolithic Farmer and Bronze Age arrivals. Like I mentioned before, it appears that Welsh and Cornish may show higher Caucasus scores that others in Britain or Ireland, and that may be assigned to Neolithic arrivals.

I wouldn't imagine that they are using Y-DNA to make this assertion at all.


" Our map is based on about 600,000 genetic markers across the whole genome, excluding the mtDNA and Y-DNA for the time being. mtDNA and Y-DNA will only show the history of those particular bits of the genome, whereas our analysis looks at the whole genome. We do have data on both mtDNA and Y-DNA that we plan to look at as well and compare to our current analysis but we haven't managed to do this yet."

Yes, when you test the genome you get Y-DNA and mtDNA results, however when you run an Autosomal population test, you compare the results of the whole genome tested. The person's mtDNA or Y-DNA are only a small part of that.

You may be unfamiliar with Eurogenes or Dodecad tests. If you were aware of these test results, you would understand what I'm taking about. If you go to these Projects Population comparison results, you will see that they don't show a testers Y or mtDNA results.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: ironroad41 on July 24, 2012, 03:32:00 PM
It would surprise me. I have never believed R1b of any kind has been in Western Europe since before the last Ice Age, and I still don't. That would put it too far from home, too soon, and with far less diversity than it should have, if it were that old.

I think the "Ice Age R1b" thing is an artifact of a number of errors. Probably foremost among them was the old idea, which goes back at least to the 19th century, that the Basques are some sort of Paleolithic remnant population. Due to that idea, scientists were predisposed to see any y haplogroup predominant among the Basques as the paramount European aboriginal y haplogroup. It happened to be R1b, so - voila! - there you have it: we're all the descendants of Cro Magnon Man.

There is also a history of peopling, or of wanting to people, the "Celtic Fringe" with a more primitive, more barbaric, and less enlightened form of humanity. That made the political domination of the area more palatable. I'm not saying that is the modern motive, but it certainly informed the opinions of the past, and those opinions became fossilized and have been inherited intact.

Then you have the fact that certain European flora and fauna apparently did move out of the F-C Refuge after the LGM. The natural inclination, upon seeing that, would be to conclude that the majority y- haplogroup in western Europe must have been among them.

Certainly some elements of the idea are probably true. Perhaps elements of a Paleolithic or Mesolithic heritage are traceable in west European autosomal dna and perhaps even in its mtDNA.

But I strongly doubt that any kind of R1b stems from that long ago in western Europe. Paleolithic y-dna in western Europe probably either no longer exists or exists only in vestiges here and there. Or it may be best represented by its downstream descendants in y haplogroup I.

Time and more ancient y-dna findings might eventually tell the tale.

I will respond to your first statement re: R1b diversity.  Please make ccs of the two following URL's. 1. http://tinyurl.com/d7qcnd3 and 2. http://tinyurl.com/2jvvok.

These two sets of data were prepared by Leo Little and are complementary.  The first present the gene diversity for 7 Hgs and 67 dys loci.  The second presents the same data but as allele distributions.

Its not necessary to get complex here, diversity is a fairly self-explanatory word and in our case usually represents a wider distribution of allele values for higher diversity.

If you look at table I and the first 12 dys loci, you do not find a strong pattern, high and low diversity Hgs. vary from locus to locus.  I believe it is hard to argue from this data that R1b has the lowest diversity of the 7 Hgs.  For many dys loci, E and G are lower.

There does appear to be some correlation of diversity with modal value in that higher modals appear to have higher diversity, but it is not fully consistent.

My point is that it is not clear to me that R1b is the least diverse of these hgs?

These comments also apply to Bren 123's comments.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: razyn on July 24, 2012, 03:37:00 PM
I wouldn't imagine that they are using Y-DNA to make this assertion at all.

No, it's an autosomal project so far.  Eventually they will get around to looking at the Y-DNA, maybe the mtDNA too.  They still have the 4,000-odd (blood) samples.  But it's funded by the Wellcome Trust, which is more interested in medical research than in genealogy or the Peopling of Anyplace.  Medically interesting information may be found on the other chromosomes, and may be inherited from any male or female ancestor; so they don't just look at alpha and omega, skipping the rest of the ancestral alphabet, so to speak.  If you look at the map at the link just posted by sernam:

http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/genetic-maps/

and then read the following post from another forum (that was a little less hot-headed about the fact that the People of the British Isles Project was so titled), perhaps less will be left to the imagination.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-07/1341435888

And there are other posts on that thread that are well worth reading.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: sernam on July 24, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
I'd imagine that they are only going by Autosomal DNA tests, and that they have probably broken things down to results that are assigned to Hunter Gatherer, Neolithic Farmer and Bronze Age arrivals. Like I mentioned before, it appears that Welsh and Cornish may show higher Caucasus scores that others in Britain or Ireland, and that may be assigned to Neolithic arrivals.

I wouldn't imagine that they are using Y-DNA to make this assertion at all.


" Our map is based on about 600,000 genetic markers across the whole genome, excluding the mtDNA and Y-DNA for the time being. mtDNA and Y-DNA will only show the history of those particular bits of the genome, whereas our analysis looks at the whole genome. We do have data on both mtDNA and Y-DNA that we plan to look at as well and compare to our current analysis but we haven't managed to do this yet."

Yes, when you test the genome you get Y-DNA and mtDNA results, however when you run an Autosomal population test, you compare the results of the whole genome tested. The person's mtDNA or Y-DNA are only a small part of that.

You may be unfamiliar with Eurogenes or Dodecad tests. If you were aware of these test results, you would understand what I'm taking about. If you go to these Projects Population comparison results, you will see that they don't show a testers Y or mtDNA results.

Ok but I thought I was agreeing w you. It says they aren’t using Y or mt, although I originally thought they were including it along w the rest until I saw that quote above.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: eochaidh on July 24, 2012, 04:17:04 PM
I'd imagine that they are only going by Autosomal DNA tests, and that they have probably broken things down to results that are assigned to Hunter Gatherer, Neolithic Farmer and Bronze Age arrivals. Like I mentioned before, it appears that Welsh and Cornish may show higher Caucasus scores that others in Britain or Ireland, and that may be assigned to Neolithic arrivals.

I wouldn't imagine that they are using Y-DNA to make this assertion at all.


" Our map is based on about 600,000 genetic markers across the whole genome, excluding the mtDNA and Y-DNA for the time being. mtDNA and Y-DNA will only show the history of those particular bits of the genome, whereas our analysis looks at the whole genome. We do have data on both mtDNA and Y-DNA that we plan to look at as well and compare to our current analysis but we haven't managed to do this yet."

Yes, when you test the genome you get Y-DNA and mtDNA results, however when you run an Autosomal population test, you compare the results of the whole genome tested. The person's mtDNA or Y-DNA are only a small part of that.

You may be unfamiliar with Eurogenes or Dodecad tests. If you were aware of these test results, you would understand what I'm taking about. If you go to these Projects Population comparison results, you will see that they don't show a testers Y or mtDNA results.

Ok but I thought I was agreeing w you. It says they aren’t using Y or mt, although I originally thought they were including it along w the rest until I saw that quote above.

I thought I was responding to Bren and that he was using that to show that they were using Y and mtDNA for the Welsh assertion.  Sorry  :)


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 24, 2012, 05:03:01 PM
I have said many times that the mtDNA is more useful to demonstrate migrations. I have found on SMGF, but probably they are known also elsewhere, some haplotypes of K1e (but the Isles, like Central North Europe till Poland, has also many K1d: more than 20 on SMGF) which are linked to that of Ötzi, K1f, and likely came from the Italian Refugium, where the haplotype of Ötzi remained:

73G 152C 263G 309.1C 315.1C 524.1A 524.1C 16140C 16224C 16311C 16519C
(Reeves, England, but mother (unknowm) Wales)

73G 152C 263G 309.1C 315.1C 524.1A 524.1C 16140C 16224C 16260T 16311C 16519C
(USA)

73G 150T 152C 263G 309.1C 315.1C 524.1A 524.1C 16140C 16224C 16311C 16519C
(Sykes, USA ; Tynes, USA)


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 24, 2012, 05:40:37 PM
The only truth in the hunter theory is that R1b on the whole does look like it took to farming late.  However, EVERYTHING points to the place where these late hunters living being in the east somewhere.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: eochaidh on July 24, 2012, 09:36:12 PM
The only truth in the hunter theory is that R1b on the whole does look like it took to farming late.  However, EVERYTHING points to the place where these late hunters living being in the east somewhere.

I don't think anyone is talking about connecting R1b to Hunter Gatherers. Actually, I don't think R1b or any Y-DNA Haplogroup is involved is the age assertion of Wales. It's all from Autosomal testing as far as I and others know.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Arch Y. on July 25, 2012, 01:39:29 AM
I think Gioiello was just being facetious and having some fun, since the idea of "invasions out of the East" is one of his pet peeves, and he knows full well that my haplotype isn't all that far off the WAMH. I am a typical DF13+, apparently like most men of British and Irish ancestry.

It would be nice if we knew what aspect of Welsh dna this study is talking about.

Besides, most of my matches come from the West Midlands and not Wales.

If I'm not mistaken, the Greek explorers (can't remember which) stated the longest settled inhabitants were found inland in the center of the island. I would guess the Peak District would perhaps be a viable regional candidate. It makes sense to me because newer inhabitants from either end or both ends of the island could be a factor why the longer settled people are always found in the chewy creamy center. Displacement by replacement always works to move people around--I suppose.

Arch


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Castlebob on July 25, 2012, 02:08:29 AM
I think Gioiello was just being facetious and having some fun, since the idea of "invasions out of the East" is one of his pet peeves, and he knows full well that my haplotype isn't all that far off the WAMH. I am a typical DF13+, apparently like most men of British and Irish ancestry.

It would be nice if we knew what aspect of Welsh dna this study is talking about.

Besides, most of my matches come from the West Midlands and not Wales.
When the Industrial Revolution took place & railways were making travel easier, many folk in rural locations headed for the nearest big city to find more lucrative employment.
Rich, I know of many Brummies (Birmingham folk) who were via Welsh stock. Ironically, many of the same families are more affluent now & are moving away from the cities back  to more rural locations west of Birmingham!
In my birth county it's reckoned that approx one tenth of its inhabitants were found to have moved to London by the 1890s.
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Bren123 on July 25, 2012, 02:13:07 AM

. Like I mentioned before, it appears that Welsh and Cornish may show higher Caucasus scores that others in Britain or Ireland,


That's interesting do you have a link or details for this?


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 25, 2012, 03:19:12 AM
I think Gioiello was just being facetious and having some fun [...]

Rich, how many letters have you written in these years? Perhaps 20,000? But probably within one hundred years you will be remembered only for having invited me to write to this forums! Lol….


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 25, 2012, 10:11:00 AM
I think Gioiello was just being facetious and having some fun [...]

Rich, how many letters have you written in these years? Perhaps 20,000? But probably within one hundred years you will be remembered only for having invited me to write to this forums! Lol….

I know this a thread on the Welsh, but I think have some Welsh in me so that makes this on topic.

I am also glad that Rich invited Gioiello to join and I'm glad that Gioiello accepted. Let us not forget that disagreement is not about conflict, but about the germination, development and refinement of ideas ... learning.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: whoknows on July 25, 2012, 10:12:06 AM
Bravo!


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: eochaidh on July 25, 2012, 11:12:50 AM

. Like I mentioned before, it appears that Welsh and Cornish may show higher Caucasus scores that others in Britain or Ireland,


That's interesting do you have a link or details for this?

If you go to the Dodecad or Eurogenes Projects and look for the results on their runs you should see it. Sometimes on earlier runs in is listed as West Asian. The Eurogenes runs have a lot of Cornish results. Also, many of the results from the Netherlands show high Caucasus scores.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: inver2b1 on July 25, 2012, 11:15:15 AM
Unfortunately he doesn't break out the Welsh, i don't think Dienekes does either.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: eochaidh on July 25, 2012, 11:36:21 AM
Unfortunately he doesn't break out the Welsh, i don't think Dienekes does either.

Sometimes they get results from studies, and they don't seem to have any from a Welsh study. There are some private UK testers from Wales though, but it hard to find the list of participants and they aren't always up to date or complete.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: razyn on July 25, 2012, 01:10:05 PM
There are some private UK testers from Wales though, but it hard to find the list of participants and they aren't always up to date or complete.

Doesn't Brian P. Swann have a Welsh project?  On the Facebook ISOGG page (and I think elsewhere) he has discussed the POBI map that was displayed at the Royal Society.  He visited it July 3, and took a closeup of the Wales part of the large map.  I can't find it, now.  That's a little off-topic, but I just mean he's into the Welsh DNA, and very current.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 25, 2012, 07:19:11 PM
The only truth in the hunter theory is that R1b on the whole does look like it took to farming late.  However, EVERYTHING points to the place where these late hunters living being in the east somewhere.

I don't think anyone is talking about connecting R1b to Hunter Gatherers. Actually, I don't think R1b or any Y-DNA Haplogroup is involved is the age assertion of Wales. It's all from Autosomal testing as far as I and others know.

Its an interesting area but its doesnt seem that there is a lot of agreement on what the major components in autosomal clusters are.  I tend to think of the North Sea Baltic cluster as Mesolithic but I dont know much about it except from Dienekes comments.  It would maye perfect sense if there is an area of high Mesolithic input all along the north Atlantic, North Sea and Baltic Sea coastal fringes because these were areas where farming arrived late.   


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: susanrosine on July 26, 2012, 04:26:01 PM
There are some private UK testers from Wales though, but it hard to find the list of participants and they aren't always up to date or complete.

Doesn't Brian P. Swann have a Welsh project?  On the Facebook ISOGG page (and I think elsewhere) he has discussed the POBI map that was displayed at the Royal Society.  He visited it July 3, and took a closeup of the Wales part of the large map.  I can't find it, now.  That's a little off-topic, but I just mean he's into the Welsh DNA, and very current.
Janet Crain and I run a Wales Cymru DNA project through FTDNA. We are in touch with Brian, but it is not his project! The Romans spoke of the different "tribes" in the area now called Wales. If remnants of these people still live there, they certainly could be among the most ancient in the UK.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Bren123 on July 27, 2012, 12:23:20 PM
So for ancestry which test is the most accurate; Autosomal,Y-DNA or mtDNA?


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: eochaidh on July 27, 2012, 12:41:55 PM
So for ancestry which test is the most accurate; Autosomal,Y-DNA or mtDNA?

It depends on what you are looking for. If you only wish to know the ancestry of your father's, father's father's, etc. line than a good, deep clade Y-DNA test ins in order. It won't tell you anything about otherlines in your DNA, though.

If you wish to know the ancestry of you mother's, mother's, mother's, etc. line, then a good mtDNA test is in order. It won't rell you anything about your other lines, though.

If you wish to know were your total DNA profile matches up with other testers and their areas of population, then a good Autosomal test is in order. If you test with 23andMe, you will also be given your Y-DNA and mtDNA designation without markers. You will also received medical information.

Once you have your Autosomal data, you can upload it to Gedmatch and run it through several Population Test that will divide your DNA into ancestral populations.

The most common problem I see on these forums, is that posters seem to identify their Y-DNA with their whole ancestry.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: susanrosine on July 27, 2012, 01:05:27 PM
Accuracy is not really a good word to describe testing.
If you know your direct male line is from Wales, and you are a male, test your Y-DNA. Notice that you already have to know your ancestor was from Wales. The test won't tell. You that he was from Wales.
Same with mtDNA, for direct maternal, but of coure males amd females can take this test. It is not used as much for genealogy as it is for deep ancestry.
Autosomal can only tell you what's there - meaning you could have a Native American ancestor, but the DNA markers you inherited may not indicate it. You would have to have researched many, many ancestors, and then find other people who match your DNA segments and share the same ancestor to "prove" an ancestor.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 27, 2012, 01:14:37 PM
So for ancestry which test is the most accurate; Autosomal,Y-DNA or mtDNA?

It depends on what you are looking for. If you only wish to know the ancestry of your father's, father's father's, etc. line than a good, deep clade Y-DNA test ins in order. It won't tell you anything about otherlines in your DNA, though.

If you wish to know the ancestry of you mother's, mother's, mother's, etc. line, then a good mtDNA test is in order. It won't rell you anything about your other lines, though.

If you wish to know were your total DNA profile matches up with other testers and their areas of population, then a good Autosomal test is in order. If you test with 23andMe, you will also be given your Y-DNA and mtDNA designation without markers. You will also received medical information.

Once you have your Autosomal data, you can upload it to Gedmatch and run it through several Population Test that will divide your DNA into ancestral populations.

The most common problem I see on these forums, is that posters seem to identify their Y-DNA with their whole ancestry.

I agree that is a silly approach.  I mean even going back to about 1800 many will hit the 128 lines of the ggggg grandparents generation.  Everyones y line is therefore less than 1% of their ancestry of 200 years ago.  Two more generations back into perhaps 1750 or so everyone has 508 lines and the Y of that time is only 0.2% of all your lineages of that generation.  It gets crazy once you get back to c. 1700 and you have about 2000 lines.  By 1600 and early European settlers of America its 16000 lines and your y from c. 1600AD is a ridicolously small portion of your ancestry.  Certainly I dont think anyone should get too puffed up about a y-ancestor of say 1600!  I laugh when some people have some sort of ancestor (perhaps a posh one with a portrait in a castle) from 100s of years ago and try to see a resemblance with them even though their DNA is maybe 0.2% the same as the guy with the wig in the painting.  Daft!  


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: eochaidh on July 27, 2012, 01:36:19 PM
So for ancestry which test is the most accurate; Autosomal,Y-DNA or mtDNA?

It depends on what you are looking for. If you only wish to know the ancestry of your father's, father's father's, etc. line than a good, deep clade Y-DNA test ins in order. It won't tell you anything about otherlines in your DNA, though.

If you wish to know the ancestry of you mother's, mother's, mother's, etc. line, then a good mtDNA test is in order. It won't rell you anything about your other lines, though.

If you wish to know were your total DNA profile matches up with other testers and their areas of population, then a good Autosomal test is in order. If you test with 23andMe, you will also be given your Y-DNA and mtDNA designation without markers. You will also received medical information.

Once you have your Autosomal data, you can upload it to Gedmatch and run it through several Population Test that will divide your DNA into ancestral populations.

The most common problem I see on these forums, is that posters seem to identify their Y-DNA with their whole ancestry.

I agree that is a silly approach.  I mean even going back to about 1800 many will hit the 128 lines of the ggggg grandparents generation.  Everyones y line is therefore less than 1% of their ancestry of 200 years ago.  Two more generations back into perhaps 1750 or so everyone has 508 lines and the Y of that time is only 0.2% of all your lineages of that generation.  It gets crazy once you get back to c. 1700 and you have about 2000 lines.  By 1600 and early European settlers of America its 16000 lines and your y from c. 1600AD is a ridicolously small portion of your ancestry.  Certainly I dont think anyone should get too puffed up about a y-ancestor of say 1600!  I laugh when some people have some sort of ancestor (perhaps a posh one with a portrait in a castle) from 100s of years ago and try to see a resemblance with them even though their DNA is maybe 0.2% the same as the guy with the wig in the painting.  Daft!  

Also, lately we have had discussions on U106 and Irish guys. First off, as a guy who is 75% Irish/Scots-Irish, I probably have a U106 ancestor myself. And a P312*, and an M222, and a G2a and an R1a and so on. Perhaps most of my male Irish ancesotrs are some variety of L21, but the chances are much in favor that they all aren't!

However, if you take an Irishman, born and raised in Ireland, who has the Y-DNA line of U106 and compare him to me Autosomally, he'll skunk me with his Irishness! I may be Y-DNA DF23, but I'm also 25% French-Canadian.

The U106 Y-DNA Irishman is going to cluster with other Irish people in Autosomal tests in spite of his U106, or their M222.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: chris1 on July 27, 2012, 02:36:47 PM
Yes, the YDNA result is not a birth certificate and is only a small part of your DNA. If it didn't matter, or was of no interest or importance to people at all though, I doubt they would test. I think the captivating, psychological thing about the Y is that it's the biological reason you are a man and it has been physically transferred to you, from one's real, very distant ancestor many times in an unbroken line - and is a tangible link to the past, present in every cell.

I was luck enough to get hold of a photograph of my UK great, great grandad recently. Some family resemblance does seem to get handed down on the male line in my experience. He was born in 1840 but would look like one of the family if he was alive today with modern clothes and haircut. Our lot look like peas in a pod. A fellow YDNA cluster member has a photograph of his great great great grandfather (different surname, b. 1799) in the USA, taken around the same time (1860s). Coincidentally, they look like they could have been father and son, yet the photos were taken on different continents. There is no connection between the families that we know of for many, many centuries. Odd..


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: sernam on July 28, 2012, 05:08:41 PM
I agree that is a silly approach.  I mean even going back to about 1800 many will hit the 128 lines of the ggggg grandparents generation.  Everyones y line is therefore less than 1% of their ancestry of 200 years ago.  Two more generations back into perhaps 1750 or so everyone has 508 lines and the Y of that time is only 0.2% of all your lineages of that generation.  It gets crazy once you get back to c. 1700 and you have about 2000 lines.  By 1600 and early European settlers of America its 16000 lines and your y from c. 1600AD is a ridicolously small portion of your ancestry.  Certainly I dont think anyone should get too puffed up about a y-ancestor of say 1600!  I laugh when some people have some sort of ancestor (perhaps a posh one with a portrait in a castle) from 100s of years ago and try to see a resemblance with them even though their DNA is maybe 0.2% the same as the guy with the wig in the painting.  Daft!  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1034796/British-pensioner-creates-worlds-biggest-family-tree--tracing-10-000-ancestors.html

Most definitely, Y is only a tiny percentage. I saw something like this news story online years back. A guy put his ancestry up on a webpage going all the way back to mythical figures (he was aware they were myths) . I believe it was an American whose ancestors came from Ireland & possibly Germany but was able to trace (supposed) lines to Chinese princesses, Roman Emperors, Arab rulers, Biblical figures etc. It must’ve been quite a project. It gives you an idea of just how little a part Y is.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Bren123 on July 28, 2012, 06:34:38 PM
According to the Brynmawr review.

Ellen C. Røyrvik (p. 83–106), Brian P. McEvoy and Daniel G. Bradley (p. 107–120) are also reserved regarding conclusions from our present knowledge of the genetics of Britain and Ireland to the linguistic situation. They agree that "population genetics should be able to make a considerable contribution towards the elucidation of Celtic … prehistory" (p. 102), but they also agree that "we are still restricted to examining but a fraction of the human genome’s diversity" (p. 118) and are hence unable to reconstruct prehistory from the genetic diversity. Inconclusive as genetic studies presently are, they look more promising for the future. The genetics of facial features (p. 87), the correlation of surnames and Y chromosomes (p. 114–117), to take just these two examples, are all interesting and encouraging.



Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 28, 2012, 09:47:41 PM
Yes, the YDNA result is not a birth certificate and is only a small part of your DNA. If it didn't matter, or was of no interest or importance to people at all though, I doubt they would test. I think the captivating, psychological thing about the Y is that it's the biological reason you are a man and it has been physically transferred to you, from one's real, very distant ancestor many times in an unbroken line - and is a tangible link to the past, present in every cell.

I was luck enough to get hold of a photograph of my UK great, great grandad recently. Some family resemblance does seem to get handed down on the male line in my experience. He was born in 1840 but would look like one of the family if he was alive today with modern clothes and haircut. Our lot look like peas in a pod. A fellow YDNA cluster member has a photograph of his great great great grandfather (different surname, b. 1799) in the USA, taken around the same time (1860s). Coincidentally, they look like they could have been father and son, yet the photos were taken on different continents. There is no connection between the families that we know of for many, many centuries. Odd..

However appearance is autosmal and the proportion of random autosomal DNA shared with a male ancestor 150-200 years ago is about something like 0.5-1.5%.  I would suggest that the phenomenon where people with so little shared genes with an ancestor seem to show a resemblance is often down to a family living and marrying in a new world location where a lot of other local people also arrived from the same old country area as ones own ancestor and the whole local community in the new country are of a similar mix to the old country. The natural thing for a long standing community is that they will eventually become very homogenised and in genetic terms would probably form some sort of autosomal cluster if it was tested to high definition. 


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Mike Forsythe on July 28, 2012, 10:23:34 PM
Of course this is off topic but I want to share a story about family resemblances in my Forsyth paternal line.    I have a crooked right little finger that is evident in about 70% of the male generations that I know of since the 1840s.  My g grandfather who was born in 1876 had it and said that his father had it as well.  Whether or not it went beyond that I don't know.  It only shows up in the male Forsyths.  The female members of the family did not inherit it.  One exception is one female in my fathers generation who has a twin brother.  My son and my grandson also have it.  172 years of YDNA passed down....


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: susanrosine on July 28, 2012, 10:44:29 PM
Of course this is off topic but I want to share a story about family resemblances in my Forsyth paternal line.    I have a crooked right little finger that is evident in about 70% of the male generations that I know of since the 1840s.  My g grandfather who was born in 1876 had it and said that his father had it as well.  Whether or not it went beyond that I don't know.  It only shows up in the male Forsyths.  The female members of the family did not inherit it.  One exception is one female in my fathers generation who has a twin brother.  My son and my grandson also have it.  172 years of YDNA passed down....
I don't think the gene for a crooked little finger is carried on the Y-DNA. Just the fact that one female also has it basically proves that. The "Y" chromosome is what makes you a male instead of a female. I mistook pictures of a little girl as pictures of my mom as a kid. She turned out to be a distant cousin of my mother's. X and mtdna didn't cause that, and neither did y-dna. It was luck of the draw (aka autosomal).


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Mike Forsythe on July 28, 2012, 11:47:49 PM
I get your point, however, yDNA or autosomal, it is a distinct structural trait clearly present in the male line of my family.  Interestingly, none of the males born to female Forsyths had even a hint of it present in their structure. 


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: Castlebob on July 29, 2012, 08:46:42 AM
Susanrosine, can you tell me if any of your L21- Welsh members are testing for  DF27, DF19 &  L238, please?
Cheers,
Bob


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: susanrosine on August 03, 2012, 09:59:58 PM
Susanrosine, can you tell me if any of your L21- Welsh members are testing for  DF27, DF19 &  L238, please?
Cheers,
Bob
Well we don't have many R-L21- people! Kit 63671 tested negative for L238, DF27 and DF19. Kit 21572 tested negative for DF19 and did not test the other ones. There are no pending tests.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: susanrosine on August 03, 2012, 10:10:22 PM
I get your point, however, yDNA or autosomal, it is a distinct structural trait clearly present in the male line of my family.  Interestingly, none of the males born to female Forsyths had even a hint of it present in their structure. 
Yep, if none of the women got the nose of their father, they can't pass it down to their children. Now, back to the topic of the Welsh people.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: sernam on August 03, 2012, 11:48:40 PM
I get your point, however, yDNA or autosomal, it is a distinct structural trait clearly present in the male line of my family.  Interestingly, none of the males born to female Forsyths had even a hint of it present in their structure. 
Yep, if none of the women got the nose of their father, they can't pass it down to their children. Now, back to the topic of the Welsh people.


 Forsyth is Welsh?


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: susanrosine on August 04, 2012, 12:22:56 AM
Exactly! It's Scottish. I would like to know what autosomal Welsh DNA looks like. My Walesd-Cymru project is Y-DNA, and seems to be dominated by R-L21.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: authun on August 04, 2012, 03:14:34 PM
Not this load of nonsense again!

Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.
 
Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.
 
Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.
 

Peter Donnelly is the statistician working for the People of the British Isles Project as part of the Wellcome Trust survey.

He is correct that Wales has a different genetic profile from England, something Weale noted for yDNA back in 2002. The data Donnelly is referring to is autosomal. Details of the genetic map were posted earlier and can be seen here:

http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/genetic-maps (http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/genetic-maps)

The Wellcome Trust's newsletter is here:

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl5.pdf (http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl5.pdf)

They will publish yDNA and mtDNA maps later.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: rms2 on August 04, 2012, 06:07:58 PM
I hope those autosomal data become available for Family Finder comparisons.

Of course, I hope the y-dna and mtDNA data become available, too.


Title: Re: Welsh People Could Be Most Ancient in UK, DNA Suggests
Post by: avalon on August 05, 2012, 04:58:43 AM
Not this load of nonsense again!

Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.
 
Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.
 
Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.
 

Peter Donnelly is the statistician working for the People of the British Isles Project as part of the Wellcome Trust survey.

He is correct that Wales has a different genetic profile from England, something Weale noted for yDNA back in 2002. The data Donnelly is referring to is autosomal. Details of the genetic map were posted earlier and can be seen here:

http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/genetic-maps (http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/genetic-maps)

The Wellcome Trust's newsletter is here:

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl5.pdf (http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl5.pdf)

They will publish yDNA and mtDNA maps later.

It is worth noting that within Wales the map shows two distinct genetic clusters, pink in North Wales and amber in South West Wales. I suspect, of course, that the two Welsh clusters are closer to each other than to the different English clusters.

Welsh scientists Fraser Roberts and Morgan Watkin came to a similar conclusion in the 1950's based on their study of blood groups in Wales. Roberts said that the North Welsh had blood group frequencies simlilar to the Irish and Scots whereas the South Welsh were lower in blood group O.

Morgan Watkin also observed relatively high frequencies of blood group B (which I understand is rare in Western Europe) in isolated, moorland areas of Wales such as the Black Mountain, the Plynlumon range and Mynydd Hiraethog in West Denbighshire.
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v10/n2/abs/hdy195616a.html (http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v10/n2/abs/hdy195616a.html)

Watkin postulated that blood group B was an ancient phenomenon in Wales, linked to the remote places where physical anthropologists Fleure and Davies (1958) claimed to have found the oldest Welsh stock.