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Title: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 19, 2012, 08:12:18 AM
About the origin of many Y-haplogroups a recent paper promises interesting contributions: "Huge study on Y-chromosome variation in Iran" (Grugni et al. 2012).
Dienekes is singing about hg R in Iran: “This is especially true for haplogroup R where pretty much every paragroup and derived group is present, excepting those likely to have originated recently elsewhere”.
He has to read the paper, and I too, but form the abstract:
“The phylogeography of the main haplogroups allowed identifying post-glacial and Neolithic expansions toward western Eurasia but also recent movements towards the Iranian region from western Eurasia (R1b-L23) […]”.



Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 19, 2012, 08:34:47 AM
I make you know that in the Table S1, where are the frequencies of the haplogroups of the 44 populations included in the PCA, only Italy/Sardinia data are unpublished. Why? I think that these scholars are going to publish a paper on Sardinia/Italy, and I think that we’ll look at finally where is the true origin of some haplogroups, including R1b but also R1a, as I think having demonstrated in these years.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: rms2 on July 19, 2012, 08:41:53 AM
There is a lot in this study to digest. Just skimming over it, I spotted some really intriguing stuff.

Quote
Frequency and variance distributions of the main haplogroups together with the network analyses and age estimates were suggestive of pre-agricultural expansions from the Iranian plateau toward Europe via Caucasus/Turkey (J2-M410*, J2-PAGE55*, J2-M530, and R1b-M269*) as well as more recent movements into the Iranian region from Asia Minor/Caucasus (J1-M267*, J2-M92), Central Asia (Q-M25), southern Mesopotamia (J1-Page08) and from West Eurasia (R1b-L23 and probably part of R1a-M198*).

Quote
As for the distribution of haplogroup R1b-L23 (xM412), it is frequent in the north-western area of the country, whereas its incidence rapidly declines southwards from Lorestan. Differently, higher levels of heterogeneity are revealed in entrance or transit areas such as, for example, those observed in the populations living around the Caspian Sea, a situation that could be ascribed to population movements from and to Europe.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 19, 2012, 10:21:44 AM
Yes, I noted this statement too: “Frequency and variance distributions of the main haplogroups together with the network analyses and age estimates were suggestive of pre-agricultural expansions from the Iranian plateau toward Europe via Caucasus/Turkey (J2-M410*, J2-PAGE55*, J2-M530, and R1b-M269*) […]” and seemed to me a contradiction that also R-M269* were put amongst this haplogroups, given that the R-M269* are only 5, there aren’t any R-M18, the Sardinian one descendant of R-V88+, and without an analysis of the ancestor R1b1* we don’t understand from whom it is born. As I have said many times, the R1b1* present in Middle East have YCAII=21-23 or 23-23 and cannot be the ancestors of R-M269*, which presupposes an R1b1* with 18-23 or 18-22, both present only in Italy.
It is confirmed that no R-M434 and R-M458 have been found, and besides, no G-L497, the ancestor of the most part of the European G-s.
If you have read the paper, Iran is mixed more than the United States, and you have said in another thread that mixed peoples have high variance and presence of haplogroups from all over the world and don’t say anything about the origin, and this is what I think too.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 19, 2012, 10:31:50 AM
The presence of 3 R-M412/L51, born without any doubt in Italy (or Italy/France as RRocca says), demonstrates that a gene flow from Western Europe has certainly happened.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 19, 2012, 10:33:32 AM
And about R1a, once more no R-M420! Read a thread of mine about it: see Haplogroup R1a...


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Richard Rocca on July 19, 2012, 11:10:18 AM
About the origin of many Y-haplogroups a recent paper promises interesting contributions: "Huge study on Y-chromosome variation in Iran" (Grugni et al. 2012).
Dienekes is singing about hg R in Iran: “This is especially true for haplogroup R where pretty much every paragroup and derived group is present, excepting those likely to have originated recently elsewhere”.
He has to read the paper, and I too, but form the abstract:
“The phylogeography of the main haplogroups allowed identifying post-glacial and Neolithic expansions toward western Eurasia but also recent movements towards the Iranian region from western Eurasia (R1b-L23) […]”.



Along those same lines, Herrera (2011) speculated that Armenian M269(xL23) and L23(xL51) may be remnants of an older European population.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 19, 2012, 12:00:54 PM
Richard, you understand that all this implicates a “theory”. I arrived to my position at least 5 years before Herrera or others and, as I have said many times, all this implicates also a linguistic theory about the origin of the Indo-European languages. You all have discussed a lot recently about this, but frequently without any glottological knowledge. Dienekes, for demonstrating his theory of Gedrosia, quotes the great Gramkrelidze and Ivanov and the glottalic theory, which is interesting, but doesn’t abolish the fact that centum languages (which are spoken above all in Western Europe) precede the satem ones, which are spoken above all in Eastern Europe and Asia. Then the origin of the Indo-European languages is in Western Europe and not in the East.
I have also said that I think that ancient Italy, after the Younger Dryas, had at least 3 linguistic groups: a Caucasian one, spoken probably in Sardinia and after to West (by which survives the Basque: but many words survives in Alpine dialects and elsewhere); the ancestor of the Indo-European and an intermediate group, i.e. the Etruscan/Rhaetian/Camun. You can see that to all this corresponds a genetic pool: hg. G2a4 of Ötzi and the I-M26 (Sardinia/Iberia); G-L497, linked to Etruscans and diffused all over Europe; presence of ancient hg. E: see my posts about E-V68 and E-V257, massive presence in Tuscany of hg. J, probably very ancient and not recent; and somewhere there was also hg. R (both R1a-M420 and R1b1* and subclades).
About Armenians and R-L23 (I have said that almost all R-L23 in the East are Armenian) I have said that they, Indo-European speaking linked to Greek languages, came from the Balkans, like before the Hittite and I have asked many times in the past if what is in the Balkans in more recent time weren’t before in Italy.
The expansion of the agriculturalists from Italy to Iberia 7500 years ago I think it is history and not a theory and your map of the presence of R-L51 in the places where they landed a proof.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: ironroad41 on July 19, 2012, 01:47:48 PM
Richard, you understand that all this implicates a “theory”. I arrived to my position at least 5 years before Herrera or others and, as I have said many times, all this implicates also a linguistic theory about the origin of the Indo-European languages. You all have discussed a lot recently about this, but frequently without any glottological knowledge. Dienekes, for demonstrating his theory of Gedrosia, quotes the great Gramkrelidze and Ivanov and the glottalic theory, which is interesting, but doesn’t abolish the fact that centum languages (which are spoken above all in Western Europe) precede the satem ones, which are spoken above all in Eastern Europe and Asia. Then the origin of the Indo-European languages is in Western Europe and not in the East.
I have also said that I think that ancient Italy, after the Younger Dryas, had at least 3 linguistic groups: a Caucasian one, spoken probably in Sardinia and after to West (by which survives the Basque: but many words survives in Alpine dialects and elsewhere); the ancestor of the Indo-European and an intermediate group, i.e. the Etruscan/Rhaetian/Camun. You can see that to all this corresponds a genetic pool: hg. G2a4 of Ötzi and the I-M26 (Sardinia/Iberia); G-L497, linked to Etruscans and diffused all over Europe; presence of ancient hg. E: see my posts about E-V68 and E-V257, massive presence in Tuscany of hg. J, probably very ancient and not recent; and somewhere there was also hg. R (both R1a-M420 and R1b1* and subclades).
About Armenians and R-L23 (I have said that almost all R-L23 in the East are Armenian) I have said that they, Indo-European speaking linked to Greek languages, came from the Balkans, like before the Hittite and I have asked many times in the past if what is in the Balkans in more recent time weren’t before in Italy.
The expansion of the agriculturalists from Italy to Iberia 7500 years ago I think it is history and not a theory and your map of the presence of R-L51 in the places where they landed a proof.

I would suggest, maliclavelli, that there is another way to approach population movements in the past and that is climate change.  Rhys Carpenter a professor at Bryn Mawr wrote a book some time ago: "Discontinuity in Greek Civilization", whose major thesis is that the shift in the upper atmospheric winds over Europe created a fertile northern africa and a wet, cool southern Europe at the beginning of the Holocene.  He also discusses his theory that the inhabitants of western Europe c. 14K to 9K., BP migrated East.  He presents his thinking as follows: "Between the two impassable fronts, the solid ice to the north and the snow-blocked mountains to the south - a corridor of open country led west from inner Asia to the Atlantic coast....There lived a race of hunters amid the wild animals - reindeer, bison and mammoth--on which they fed.  As the climate changed, it  changed the scrub growth and forest, swamps and marshland replaced the open pastures.... the animals (and after them the hunters) seem to have wandered away, under the climatic shelter of the retreating icecap, through the great European corridor across Russia ....  A recent paper discussed on Dienekes forum: " Population strata in the West Siberian Plain" appears to discuss this event.  Unfortunately they didn't present Y STR data, but the MtDNA were all U's, characteristic of western europe  The descendants of these folks might be the source of R1b in Eurasia?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 19, 2012, 02:48:01 PM
I agree with you. My theory of an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas began when it seemed to me that the zone at the feet of the Alps was one of the few fertile region of Europe (but it is possible that I am wrong). Anyway my theory continued based on other “facts”: Genetic, Historic, Linguistic ones etc.
Of course in that time there weren’t the countries of to-day and a nationalistic discourse is out of place, but, as everyone does “nationalistic discourses”, if you permit to me, I defend my country, also because I am convinced that all I am saying is true and I am waiting confident for the aDNA.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: princenuadha on July 19, 2012, 04:37:23 PM
Richard, you understand that all this implicates a “theory”. I arrived to my position at least 5 years before Herrera or others and, as I have said many times, all this implicates also a linguistic theory about the origin of the Indo-European languages. You all have discussed a lot recently about this, but frequently without any glottological knowledge. Dienekes, for demonstrating his theory of Gedrosia, quotes the great Gramkrelidze and Ivanov and the glottalic theory, which is interesting, but doesn’t abolish the fact that centum languages (which are spoken above all in Western Europe) precede the satem ones, which are spoken above all in Eastern Europe and Asia. Then the origin of the Indo-European languages is in Western Europe and not in the East.
I have also said that I think that ancient Italy, after the Younger Dryas, had at least 3 linguistic groups: a Caucasian one, spoken probably in Sardinia and after to West (by which survives the Basque: but many words survives in Alpine dialects and elsewhere); the ancestor of the Indo-European and an intermediate group, i.e. the Etruscan/Rhaetian/Camun. You can see that to all this corresponds a genetic pool: hg. G2a4 of Ötzi and the I-M26 (Sardinia/Iberia); G-L497, linked to Etruscans and diffused all over Europe; presence of ancient hg. E: see my posts about E-V68 and E-V257, massive presence in Tuscany of hg. J, probably very ancient and not recent; and somewhere there was also hg. R (both R1a-M420 and R1b1* and subclades).
About Armenians and R-L23 (I have said that almost all R-L23 in the East are Armenian) I have said that they, Indo-European speaking linked to Greek languages, came from the Balkans, like before the Hittite and I have asked many times in the past if what is in the Balkans in more recent time weren’t before in Italy.
The expansion of the agriculturalists from Italy to Iberia 7500 years ago I think it is history and not a theory and your map of the presence of R-L51 in the places where they landed a proof.

I would suggest, maliclavelli, that there is another way to approach population movements in the past and that is climate change.  Rhys Carpenter a professor at Bryn Mawr wrote a book some time ago: "Discontinuity in Greek Civilization", whose major thesis is that the shift in the upper atmospheric winds over Europe created a fertile northern africa and a wet, cool southern Europe at the beginning of the Holocene.  He also discusses his theory that the inhabitants of western Europe c. 14K to 9K., BP migrated East.  He presents his thinking as follows: "Between the two impassable fronts, the solid ice to the north and the snow-blocked mountains to the south - a corridor of open country led west from inner Asia to the Atlantic coast....There lived a race of hunters amid the wild animals - reindeer, bison and mammoth--on which they fed.  As the climate changed, it  changed the scrub growth and forest, swamps and marshland replaced the open pastures.... the animals (and after them the hunters) seem to have wandered away, under the climatic shelter of the retreating icecap, through the great European corridor across Russia ....  A recent paper discussed on Dienekes forum: " Population strata in the West Siberian Plain" appears to discuss this event.  Unfortunately they didn't present Y STR data, but the MtDNA were all U's, characteristic of western europe  The descendants of these folks might be the source of R1b in Eurasia?

Interesting. There had to be some sort of highway or bottleneck (your guy actually argues both) for the meso Europeans to be so similar. Even the modern English and Western Russians are pretty close considering their geographic distances. I definitely think this point should get more attention in the forums.

Instead of one crucial migration east, I think there was a lot of bi directional movement in pre neolithic Europeans. I forgot the study, but the researchers argued for some mtdna migrating from eastern Europe to western during the mesolithic.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: princenuadha on July 19, 2012, 04:45:20 PM
Quote from: Maliclavelli
My theory of an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas began when it seemed to me that the zone at the feet of the Alps was one of the few fertile region of Europe (but it is possible that I am wrong). Anyway my theory continued based on other “facts”:

I believe r1b sprang from Hawaii after the ice age. It is a known fact that Hawaii was relatively warm during the ice age.

This fact is undeniable.

Jk. Why do you think the fact that northern Italy was fertile during the ice age matters? Do you think they were a more populus refugium than F-C or eastern Europe?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: rms2 on July 19, 2012, 07:45:53 PM
. . .
If you have read the paper, Iran is mixed more than the United States, and you have said in another thread that mixed peoples have high variance and presence of haplogroups from all over the world and don’t say anything about the origin, and this is what I think too.


I haven't had the chance to really read it yet. For the last two, almost three, weeks, my wife has had me installing hardwood floors in our house from morning until night. I'm working on the stairs now, the last of my indentured servitude. I'm exhausted.

Anyway, the more I learn about genetics and various theories about this y haplogroup and that, the more confused I become. I do agree with you that variance may not be all that important. It's pretty obvious that a haplogroup can look far older in a particular place than it really is, simply because it had a lot of different sources contributing to its population in the newer area of settlement.

I confess a lot of this is over my head, but I am unwilling to just blindly trust scientists. Everybody has an axe to grind.




Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 19, 2012, 09:03:08 PM
I believe r1b sprang from Hawaii after the ice age. It is a known fact that Hawaii was relatively warm during the ice age.
This fact is undeniable.

The Hawaii idea is very promising. During my researches (not having at my disposal the FTDNA clones, I found samples on SMGF and put them on ySearch) I found an interesting R-L23 in Okinawa Island (Terukina). I thought he was a descendant from some Mexican who was a son of some Spaniard etc, but to think that hg. R was born on the Hawaii and not in Central Asia is worthy of your intelligence.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 19, 2012, 09:27:41 PM
I find this answer on the Dienekes blog from Ezr:
“Great paper.

My own pet theory is that there were two expansions of both R1b and R1a, before and after Indo-Europeanization:
The first “Mediterranean”, non-IE-influenced expansion of R1b gave origin to Vasconcic-Iberian languages and whatever was spoken in Sardinia prior to the Romans (Sardinia has unusual R1b diversity); the second, “Balkanic” IE-influenced expansion of R1b gave origin to Centum IE and Anatolian.
The first non-IE influenced expansion of R1a gave origin to Kassite/Gutian and maybe Burushaski; the Stay-at-home R1a gave origin to North(west/east?) Caucasian and Hurro-Urartian. The IE-influenced expansion gave origin to Satem IE.
The uncertainty here is the position of the Tocharians and the Tarim R1as / R1b 's”.

I permit to publish it here because it is very close to the ideas I have been expressing from many years. Probably Ezr doesn’t know Gioiello Tognoni.
About the presence of R-M73 in the zone of the Tocharians, I suggest to Ezr to read my postings about the origin of R-M73 in Western Europe against all who say “Central Asia”. And of course he should read also my postings about R-M335 and all the rest.



Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on July 19, 2012, 09:46:11 PM
Interesting, what we can glean from this survey, reminds me of elevated numbers found in Talysh.
R1b1a2a*/L23*

Low and or not found

Turkmen-Golestan
Afro/Iranian- Hormozgan
Bandari-Hormozgan
Persian-Khorasan
Arab-Kuzistan
Kurds-Kurdistan
Baluch-Sistan Baluchistan


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Elevated in Western regions

Armenians-West Azerbaijan/Terhan
Lur-Lorestan
Gilak-Gilan

A swath from  the north Karabagh/Syunik into North Western Iran into Lorestan, outlined by the Eastern border of the Assyria, with Armenians in the North to traditional Iranian tribes like Medes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Assyria.png




Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Arch Y. on July 20, 2012, 01:58:01 AM
Interesting, what we can glean from this survey, reminds me of elevated numbers found in Talysh.
R1b1a2a*/L23*

Low and or not found

Turkmen-Golestan
Afro/Iranian- Hormozgan
Bandari-Hormozgan
Persian-Khorasan
Arab-Kuzistan
Kurds-Kurdistan
Baluch-Sistan Baluchistan


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Elevated in Western regions

Armenians-West Azerbaijan/Terhan
Lur-Lorestan
Gilak-Gilan

A swath from  the north Karabagh/Syunik into North Western Iran into Lorestan, outlined by the Eastern border of the Assyria, with Armenians in the North to traditional Iranian tribes like Medes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Assyria.png




Ah! I was wondering when Syunik would come up in this thread.

Arch


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on July 20, 2012, 11:35:10 AM
Alleged "Assyrians" from West Azarbaijan N39- 23%
Alleged "Azeri" from West Azarbaijan N63-12%
Alleged "Persian" from Fars N44-11%
Lur from Lorestan N50-23%
Armenians from Tehran N34-23%

We can add the results to,

Bakht    46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak    43    23%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan    46    15%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh    43    19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Talysh-indigenous
Gilaki-Indo-Iranian
Lur-Medes?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on July 20, 2012, 12:45:26 PM
Interesting, what we can glean from this survey, reminds me of elevated numbers found in Talysh.
R1b1a2a*/L23*

Low and or not found

Turkmen-Golestan
Afro/Iranian- Hormozgan
Bandari-Hormozgan
Persian-Khorasan
Arab-Kuzistan
Kurds-Kurdistan
Baluch-Sistan Baluchistan


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Elevated in Western regions

Armenians-West Azerbaijan/Terhan
Lur-Lorestan
Gilak-Gilan

A swath from  the north Karabagh/Syunik into North Western Iran into Lorestan, outlined by the Eastern border of the Assyria, with Armenians in the North to traditional Iranian tribes like Medes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Assyria.png




Ah! I was wondering when Syunik would come up in this thread.

Arch


Nice map, courtesy Humanist.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Map_Middle_East_R1b.jpg


Perhaps if we isolate the two Armenian[Karabagh/Syunik] provinces the figures should be closer to 30%-40%?

An updated study would be nice.
Weale et al. 2001:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Weale-HG-01-Armenia.pdf

hg1 (PxR1a):
10/44 = 0.2273 Ararat
42/189 = 0.2222 North
56/140 = 0.4000 Syunik
92/215 = 0.4279 Karabakh
18/56 = 0.3214 Iranian
20/90 = 0.2222 West
238/734 = 0.3243 Armenian total





Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 20, 2012, 01:01:47 PM
... If you have read the paper, Iran is mixed more than the United States, and you have said in another thread that mixed peoples have high variance and presence of haplogroups from all over the world and don’t say anything about the origin, and this is what I think too.

Your conclusion may be right but I don't think you can use the US as an example similar to Iran. We know on the historical record and via archaeology that many of the genetic types in the US, most in fact, are immigrants in the last several hundred years. The US is a known melting pot.  Iran may be as well, but we don't have same certainty that Iran is made up of recent immigrants.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2012, 01:02:41 PM
Many have discussed about the Indo-European haplogroup par excellence: R1a (but it is linked above all with satem languages); J2, supported above all by Dienekes (very likely it is its own Y), etc. From your data it seems that the Indo-European haplogroup of the most ancient times could be R-L23 (which is mine!), and this till Armenians, Hittite, Tocharians (where R-M73 prevailed), and in Western Europe the subclades of R-L23, beginning from R-L51. Of course my hypothesis is that R-L23 and IE languages where then in Italy or nearby.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2012, 01:08:22 PM
Your conclusion may be right but I don't think you can use the US as an example similar to Iran. We know on the historical record and via archaeology that many of the genetic types in the US, most in fact, are immigrants in the last several hundred years. The US is a known melting pot.  Iran may be as well, but we don't have same certainty that Iran is made up of recent immigrants.
Iranian melting pot began in the 1st millennium Before Christ with the arrival of IE peoples, continued with the Persian Empire and after with the invasions of Greeks, Arabs, Turks etc.
Of course I think that every people, also mine, is a melting pot. Who is characterized like Tuscans is only because they have had a millennium or more of isolations, but the melting pot continues.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2012, 01:25:36 PM
This is a comment of Eurologist on Dienekes’ Anthropology blog:

“My problem with this and with some of Dienekes' thinking is that this is all too terribly late, for Central and Northern Europe. Most specialists agree that Proto-Germanic arose in Northern and Central-to-Eastern Germany and current Western Poland (forget about silly Scandinavian origins that were abolished half a century ago except in the Anglo-American literature - there is a complete lack of any evidence of N --> S cultural impact, but plenty vice versa).
And many agree this plus separation into Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic happened either during or before the northern Urnfield / Tumulus in a region with clear archeological continuity(*) since at least the early bronze age or before. Cynics will say, yeah, that's why y-DNA haplogroup I survived, there. Others think that PIE spread much further much earlier, which then much later enabled groups to establish their IE language locally, much more easily.
That is, Celtic, Germanic, and Italic may have started separation and full establishment on a fertile PIE background, and separated locally as early as 2000 - 1500 BCE - way before any of the often-cited late intrusion from the East.
(*) Unlike popular "constant-latitude-exchange" theories, Europe's climate is very different, between the West and the East. In the West and part of the Western Center, you can go 800-1,000 km N/S without much climatic change. Do the same W/E, and you go from a moderate, Atlantic Climate in the North to one 15-20C colder in the winter, with much longer winters, and more snowfalls. Or go from a mild Adriatic to an unbearable summer inland SE Hungary to a frigid winter NE Romania, a mildish Black Sea, and a truly mild Crimean - all the same latitude.
For the most part, the East is much more continental and much more prone to severe and catastrophic climate changes (droughts and very long, cold winters) - which means inability to cut enough hay and get sufficient food for animals and people, while you need more animal labor to collect it, food for many more days before they can go outside, and collection on more days than remain available. It's a vicious cycle.
So, population density in the East was fluctuating extremely before the advent of mechanized harvesting. But not in the more western parts of Central Europe, or in Western Europe. This makes for a huge difference in population continuity. Some regions indeed were susceptible to huge population turn-around, others were not. We should keep this straight”.

One of my first hypotheses which took me to the Italian Refugium was that the Balkans were (and are) colder than Italy.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: rms2 on July 20, 2012, 02:48:53 PM
Many have discussed about the Indo-European haplogroup par excellence: R1a (but it is linked above all with satem languages); J2, supported above all by Dienekes (very likely it is its own Y), etc. From your data it seems that the Indo-European haplogroup of the most ancient times could be R-L23 (which is mine!), and this till Armenians, Hittite, Tocharians (where R-M73 prevailed), and in Western Europe the subclades of R-L23, beginning from R-L51. Of course my hypothesis is that R-L23 and IE languages where then in Italy or nearby.

I noticed that, too, that Dienekes seems to think J2 is the paramount IE y haplogroup and that the data from this report seem to point toward R-L23. In various blog posts in the past, Dienekes has suggested there is a correlation between the distribution of J2 and R1b in Europe.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2012, 05:19:19 PM
I noticed that, too, that Dienekes seems to think J2 is the paramount IE y haplogroup and that the data from this report seem to point toward R-L23. In various blog posts in the past, Dienekes has suggested there is a correlation between the distribution of J2 and R1b in Europe.
These are the last positions of Dienekes about J2a (see the comment to this paper in his blog):

“Of course, the idea that the diffusion of J2a related lineages ties in with early agricultural expansions has been with us for a long time, but it is time to abandon it. First of all, as we have seen, J2a diminishes greatly as we head towards South Asia; it certainly doesn't look like the lineage of the multitude of agricultural settlements that sprang up along the southeastern vector soon after the invention of agriculture. Second, it is lacking so far in all ancient Y chromosome data from Europe down to 5,000 years ago. It seems much more probably that J2 related lineages spread from the highlands of West Asia much later.
The "age estimates" are the result of using the inappropriate "evolutionary mutation rate", and become even older because of the inclusion of the DYS388 marker that is very stable in many haplogroups but very mutable within haplogroup J. On the left you can see frequency, Y-STR variance, and haplotype network structures for various J-related groups”.

It would be very interesting (and shocking) if he had the courage we have to declare his haplotype.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 20, 2012, 05:33:21 PM
lol I have been wondering if Dienekes is J2 myself.

The paper is interesting though.  Dienekes is now pointing to NW Iran for M269* and L23*.  That is slowly creeping towards a near-steppes  IE-compatible angle even if he is still chasing the J angle.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2012, 05:44:42 PM
Dienekes is now pointing to NW Iran for M269* and L23*.
This is the last flaw of Dienekes: the 5 R-M269* haplotypes from Iran reported in the paper are practically the same, with only 1 mutation in a fast mutating marker, then 5 are only 1 and DYS390=26 is well attested in Italy (with many other values).
On the other hand it is well known that Dienekes understands a little of Y-STRs.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 20, 2012, 05:58:40 PM
Yes, one could ask how I do know these haplotypes, seen that the paper doesn’t report them, but I was referring to the 5 haplotypes reported by the paper of Herrera on Armenians, but, seen that Iranian R-M269 and R-M23 are above all from Armenia, I bet that they aren’t so different.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on July 21, 2012, 02:02:58 AM
"One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes  in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains."

Dienekes said.
"R1b is definitely "out" as a PIE candidate due to its clear asymmetrical geographical distribution; it can only be associated with some secondary Indo-Europeanized groups."

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

M429
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/m429.png/

M269
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/rm269.png/

HG-R
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/800pxhaplogrouprydna.png/


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 21, 2012, 04:01:27 AM
In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?
You know my answer: because hg. R was a Northern Eurasian haplogroup, and I/J a Southern Eurasian one.
But your map, with R-M173 ( i.e. R1*) diffused in North America and South East Asia, raises again the problem of the Amerindian R, which isn't easily overcome by saying that they are of European origin, problem arisen by the Brasilian Geneticist Catira Bortolini and others.
Evidently we are in front of an ancient dispersion. My theory of the Italian Refugium regards only the developments of hg. R from R1b1* (YCAII=18-23 or 18-22) and subclades.
I have said many times that also the !kung (Bushmen) get hg. R*.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on July 21, 2012, 07:56:11 AM
In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?
You know my answer: because hg. R was a Northern Eurasian haplogroup, and I/J a Southern Eurasian one.
But your map, with R-M173 ( i.e. R1*) diffused in North America and South East Asia, raises again the problem of the Amerindian R, which isn't easily overcome by saying that they are of European origin, problem arisen by the Brasilian Geneticist Catira Bortolini and others.
Evidently we are in front of an ancient dispersion. My theory of the Italian Refugium regards only the developments of hg. R from R1b1* (YCAII=18-23 or 18-22) and subclades.
I have said many times that also the !kung (Bushmen) get hg. R*.

What age do you put on Italian R1b and it's spread?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Richard Rocca on July 21, 2012, 08:39:42 AM
"One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes  in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains."

Dienekes said.
"R1b is definitely "out" as a PIE candidate due to its clear asymmetrical geographical distribution; it can only be associated with some secondary Indo-Europeanized groups."

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

M429
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/m429.png/

M269
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/rm269.png/

HG-R
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/800pxhaplogrouprydna.png/

Dienekes' comment is as absurd. It's like saying that L21 is not related to Celts because its asymmetrical in the isles even though it is thoroughly dominant there. All  haplogroups have asymmetrical distributions because they are old and involve many population movements. This guy is losing all credibility with this nonsense.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 21, 2012, 09:07:46 AM
What age do you put on Italian R1b and it's spread?
I have said and written many times in the past that the best method to demonstrate something isn’t that of following the huge haplogroups and haplotypes but the rarest ones (and of course I wasn’t the unique to say this).
Perhaps it would be interesting if you all follow my thread here about the dispersion of mtDNA K1a1b1e. It is rare. Till a few weeks ago we were only 3 to have the mutation 9932A. Now it is clear that beyond Italy this haplogroup is present in the Isles with its own mutations: 477C, perhaps 16228C etc.
The last reassessment of Behar et al. (but you know that I have criticized him many times) gives to K1a1b1e an ancientness of about 7000 years. With the new mutations that we are discovering it could be also more. Then we are at my theory of the Italian Refugium after the Younger Dryas, but the expansion to Iberia we know happened 7500 years ago. We shall see if K1a1b1e arrived to the Isles via Iberia or to Central Europe. We are waiting for next results, someone of them are processing.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 21, 2012, 09:13:39 AM
"One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes  in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains."

Dienekes said.
"R1b is definitely "out" as a PIE candidate due to its clear asymmetrical geographical distribution; it can only be associated with some secondary Indo-Europeanized groups."

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

M429
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/m429.png/

M269
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/rm269.png/

HG-R
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/800pxhaplogrouprydna.png/

Dienekes' comment is as absurd. It's like saying that L21 is not related to Celts because its asymmetrical in the isles even though it is thoroughly dominant there. All  haplogroups have asymmetrical distributions because they are old and involve many population movements. This guy is losing all credibility with this nonsense.

Yes its gibberish.  You could easily explain R1b and R1a's distributions in a steppes model thus:

1. R1b was located among the pre-Yamanya groups at the west end of the steppes, probably around the north shore of the Black Sea, closer to (and mixed in with) intrusive farmig groups.

2. R1a was located to the east of the Black Sea, perhaps among ealry Yamnaya groups.

3. As a consequence of this the R1a groups tended to look for and follow routes along true steppe-like lands (Europe as far east as Hungary/Poland) while R1b perhaps looked to lands suitable for a less steppe nomadic orientated pastoralism.  Of course it is not as simple or as good a fit as that today and it will be messed up by later movements but there is a distinct whiff of that.

It is tempting to see R1b as taking a dual trajectory that went from a starting point on the north shore of the Black sea and split into two L23* groups, one of which headed into south-central Europe and another which headed down to eastern edge of the Black Sea.  R1a on the other hand may have started further east nearer the Urals and have moved in three directions - east, down the west side of the Caspain and towards Europe.  it is possible if R1b people had become a little more farming adapted that they may have exited the steppes slightly  before R1a, who also seem to have had a more easterly starting point.  

EDIT-It is known that archaeologically the westernmost steppe groups accepted farming far more readily and earlier than the eastern ones in the time before the C-Trypole culture.  So there may have been groups lurking even prior to the Yamnaya period who were more ready to spread into non-steppe areas than those further east.  I think there is potenitally something in this in terms of the R1a and R1b distribution.  It is also possible that R1b people moved out of the steppe as a result of the Yamnaya groups and I dont mean by that that they were C-Tryp peoples who I think could not have been R1b on the whole or else the structure of R1b branching would have been very different.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 21, 2012, 09:21:11 AM
"One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes  in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains."

Dienekes said.
"R1b is definitely "out" as a PIE candidate due to its clear asymmetrical geographical distribution; it can only be associated with some secondary Indo-Europeanized groups."

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

M429
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/m429.png/

M269
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/rm269.png/

HG-R
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/800pxhaplogrouprydna.png/

Dienekes' comment is as absurd. It's like saying that L21 is not related to Celts because its asymmetrical in the isles even though it is thoroughly dominant there. All  haplogroups have asymmetrical distributions because they are old and involve many population movements. This guy is losing all credibility with this nonsense.

...and another thing, physical barriers make asymmetry of DNA spread almost certain.  Its not like the area is flat, obstacle free with a homogenious environment.   The environment around the eastern-Europe/SW Asia area features, steppe, huge mountain areas, deserts, giant lakes etc.  You are right it is absurd.  Like I say, I respect Dienekes but he does look like he is fixated on one model even when the evidence is against it.  He is slowly shifting his model further north and into a later period which to me reads a bit like he is edging towards something in between a steppe and Neolithic model.  Only problem with it is there is no 'out of Iran' movement sweeping Europe in the copper age but there are steppe movements.  At the moment I would tend to interpret the early M269/L23* block in the uplands between the steppes and Mesopotamia as refuges of groups displaced from somewhere to the north.  These groups do have a tendency to be higher in groups with known linguistic origins to the north.  


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2012, 11:23:07 AM
"One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes  in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains."

Dienekes said.
"R1b is definitely "out" as a PIE candidate due to its clear asymmetrical geographical distribution; it can only be associated with some secondary Indo-Europeanized groups."

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

M429
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/m429.png/

M269
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/rm269.png/

HG-R
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/800pxhaplogrouprydna.png/

Dienekes' comment is as absurd. It's like saying that L21 is not related to Celts because its asymmetrical in the isles even though it is thoroughly dominant there. All  haplogroups have asymmetrical distributions because they are old and involve many population movements. This guy is losing all credibility with this nonsense.

Yeah, he is knowledgeable, but the "J2=Original IE" thing is baffling. It's right out of left field.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: A_Wode on July 21, 2012, 12:23:21 PM
I see some evidence that the lack of a "West Asian" component in Basque and a (seemingly) late spread of J2a subclades into Europe might be evidence for them being the original Indo-European. Unfortunately, I don't think it's so so linear and straight forward. I doubt we will ever have a definite answer. The reality could also be way out in left field with something we would never anticipate.

EDIT: It seems "elite-dominance" was the last flavour of the month and only used when it suits the individual's pet theory. This month is autosomal DNA, which is slightly better at least.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: rms2 on July 21, 2012, 12:38:47 PM
I'm at the point now where I have pretty much decided to concern myself with my own y haplogroup and my own family tree and to let the "Indo-Europeans" go hang. Might as well chase leprechauns.

Ancient y-dna might tell the tale eventually, if we get enough of it in all the right places.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Jean M on July 21, 2012, 03:23:42 PM
I see some evidence that the lack of a "West Asian" component in Basque and a (seemingly) late spread of J2a subclades into Europe might be evidence for them being the original Indo-European.

I now suspect that the Proto-Greek-speakers actually did carry quite a lot of J2a. There are aspects of the Neolithic to Bronze Age transition in Greece that have only just hit me. I haven't been reading Dienekes on the subject. I've been reading archaeologists. I'm amazed.  Large chunks of Greece seem to have been uninhabited at the end of the Neolithic.

Not that this makes J2a "the" PIE Y-DNA haplogroup. As I keep saying, there isn't just one. But a large Bronze Age input from Anatolia is exactly what the archaeology suggests.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: princenuadha on July 21, 2012, 07:19:41 PM
I see some evidence that the lack of a "West Asian" component in Basque and a (seemingly) late spread of J2a subclades into Europe might be evidence for them being the original Indo-European.

I now suspect that the Proto-Greek-speakers actually did carry quite a lot of J2a. There are aspects of the Neolithic to Bronze Age transition in Greece that have only just hit me. I haven't been reading Dienekes on the subject. I've been reading archaeologists. I'm amazed.  Large chunks of Greece seem to have been uninhabited at the end of the Neolithic.

Not that this makes J2a "the" PIE Y-DNA haplogroup. As I keep saying, there isn't just one. But a large Bronze Age input from Anatolia is exactly what the archaeology suggests.

What makes you think they were IE. I think there were non ie anatolian migrations to Italy after the neolithic that could have brought j2 to the peninsula. Maybe its the same for Greece.

Also, I posted my reply to dienekes summing up my opinion on "West Asian" and the weak argument that I think it is (hopefully it will be approved soon).


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: princenuadha on July 21, 2012, 11:06:52 PM
I'm at the point now where I have pretty much decided to concern myself with my own y haplogroup and my own family tree and to let the "Indo-Europeans" go hang. Might as well chase leprechauns.

Ancient y-dna might tell the tale eventually, if we get enough of it in all the right places.

I think the steppe theory is very interesting for the sake of my own ancestry. So, obviously I would like to see it confirmed. But at the same time, part of me wants to see dienekes (man, he gets so much attention) proved correct. Because I like to follow steppe thoery, I've run into a whole bunch of racial supremists that think the origin of IE would support said philosophy. I think its ridiculus to say on group of people are better because they were close to the springboard for IE.

At least a middle eastern origin would make them realize that things arent that simple.

Then again, I hope we wouldn't have to hear how everything ultimately came from the middle east if dienekes were proven right : )


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 21, 2012, 11:15:49 PM
I only noticed there that despite Dienekes commentary the paper actually says

The phylogeography of the main haplogroups allowed identifying post-glacial and Neolithic expansions toward western Eurasia but also recent movements towards the Iranian region from western Eurasia (R1b-L23), Central Asia (Q-M25), Asia Minor (J2a-M92) and southern Mesopotamia

I have not read the full paper so I dont know what he means by western Eurasia.  However it says L23 was a movement TOWARDS Iran. 


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 22, 2012, 12:18:58 AM
Alan Trowel Hands says: “so I don’t know what he means by western Eurasia”.

I noticed that too, and I thought that they did mean “Europe”, because if they had thought to Anatolia they would have said “Anatolia, Asia Minor, Middle East…”, but this demonstrates once more that nobody dares to say “Europe”. This for the old supremacy (this is the true “supremacy”) of Cavalli Sforza, Barbujani etc., those whom I have always called “Cavallo Sforzesco”, “Farfugliani” etc. and let you mean which is the spirit in my language towards these illustrious Italians.
I have said that I suppose that these authors are preparing a paper about Sardinia and Italy, seen that they haven’t published the data of Sardina, but from these reticence perhaps I shouldn’t expect anything good.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on July 22, 2012, 12:36:48 AM
Alan Trowel Hands says: “so I don’t know what he means by western Eurasia”.

I noticed that too, and I thought that they did mean “Europe”, because if they had thought to Anatolia they would have said “Anatolia, Asia Minor, Middle East…”, but this demonstrates once more that nobody dares to say “Europe”. This for the old supremacy (this is the true “supremacy”) of Cavalli Sforza, Barbujani etc., those whom I have always called “Cavallo Sforzesco”, “Farfugliani” etc. and let you mean which is the spirit in my language towards these illustrious Italians.
I have said that I suppose that these authors are preparing a paper about Sardinia and Italy, seen that they haven’t published the data of Sardina, but from these reticence perhaps I shouldn’t expect anything good.


Anything European, is becomming taboo!

The conclusion reached in R1b; pocket in North West,dropping in frequency going East and South from Lorestan.

"As for the distribution of haplogroup R1b-L23 (xM412), it is frequent in the north-western area of the country, whereas its incidence rapidly declines southwards from Lorestan. Differently, higher levels of heterogeneity are revealed in entrance or transit areas such as, for example, those observed in the populations living around the Caspian Sea, a situation that could be ascribed to population movements from and to Europe."


Light Green, in pie chart

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/r1binwestasia.png/

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

Contrast with J2, found in Southern Europe from Levant/Mesopotamia origin.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/j2au.png/


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 22, 2012, 01:01:46 AM
Anything European, is becomming taboo!

Many thanks, Acekon. Then I hope that they write the paper I expect and they abolish the other taboo: Italy!


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 22, 2012, 01:20:44 AM
Also about the distribution of J2 I’d say that more than a difference between East and West (even though the origin near the Caucasus is the more likable) I see a difference based on altitude, even in Italy (Matese) and Greece. It would seem that more than a difference of the expansion between J2 and J1 based on agriculturalists/shepherds (see Roy King et al.) it is a difference between shepherds: altitude against low lands. Of course we could think also to a refugee of J2 in altitude, but we should think to an invasion happened more recently and in the whole region, from Europe to Caucasus. By whom?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on July 22, 2012, 09:36:30 AM
Also about the distribution of J2 I’d say that more than a difference between East and West (even though the origin near the Caucasus is the more likable) I see a difference based on altitude, even in Italy (Matese) and Greece. It would seem that more than a difference of the expansion between J2 and J1 based on agriculturalists/shepherds (see Roy King et al.) it is a difference between shepherds: altitude against low lands. Of course we could think also to a refugee of J2 in altitude, but we should think to an invasion happened more recently and in the whole region, from Europe to Caucasus. By whom?

Maybe J2= Altitude sickness, very dizzy. Dienekes said...

"Lol, how do they "correlate"? J2 is the modal haplogroup in a bunch of IE groups, R1b in another bunch, and R1a in yet another bunch."

"There are, however, strong hints: J2 expanded late, it seems, its J2a subclade is associated with Hindu upper castes, its center of weight is in the IE homeland, it largely overlaps with the area of maximum West_Asian, and it also reaches all major branches of IE, even in small frequencies."


 J2 m-429 is connected with Semitic language,Proto-Circassion language, Hindu upper castes, and the spread into all major branches of IE.  

Areas with m429 J2,Levant, are "Semitic" based languages..

 Iraq       N154    43.6 %   Al-Zahery et al. (20110)
Syria    Syria    N554    20.8%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)
Saudi Arabia       N157    15.9%    Abu-Amero et al. (2009)

Areas with m429 J2 are not classified as "Indo-Iranian," language

Caucasus    Ingush    N143    88.8%    Balanovsky et al. (2011)
Caucasus    Chechen    N330    57%    Balanovsky et al. (2011)

It is interesting that in the study,areas with elevated m269-L23 Gilaki, Lurish,Armenian,[Talysh/Osset separate studies]. Are classified as Indo-Iranian language branches, not Arabic or Proto-Circassion-m429 J2.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Jean M on July 22, 2012, 09:51:29 AM
What makes you think they were IE. I think there were non ie anatolian migrations to Italy after the neolithic that could have brought j2 to the peninsula. Maybe its the same for Greece.

Yes this the trouble. We have waves of people from Anatolia coming into Crete and the Cyclades and on into the Greek mainland in a very complex series.  Some spoke a language we can't read which we label Minoan. Some were IE speakers from Anatolia - the Carians. The people who later spoke Greek may have entered by land or sea or both and zig-zagged back and forth between Greece and Anatolia like yo-yos. People from Troy were metal-working in Greece at one point. It's enough to have me throwing up my hands in despair. But let's say it's not too surprising that the Greeks today have a genetic input from West Asia!  


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Jean M on July 22, 2012, 10:00:28 AM
However it says L23 was a movement TOWARDS Iran. 

That makes total sense. A lot of the L23 is carried by Armenians and Assyrians in Iran. The L23 would have arrived in Armenia from the Balkans with the Armenians. Some of the L23 may well have entered the Caucasus with Cimmerians. Essentially it is looking as though R1 split into R1b and R1a in or near Iran, because all the basal haplogroups are present. But L23 appeared either en route through Anatolia or in the Balkan/Lower Danube area.

See the excellent analysis by DMXX at  Interpreting New Iranian Y-Chromosomal Data (Grugni et al.)  (http://vaedhya.blogspot.co.uk/)


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Jarman on July 22, 2012, 11:13:16 AM
Also about the distribution of J2 I’d say that more than a difference between East and West (even though the origin near the Caucasus is the more likable) I see a difference based on altitude, even in Italy (Matese) and Greece. It would seem that more than a difference of the expansion between J2 and J1 based on agriculturalists/shepherds (see Roy King et al.) it is a difference between shepherds: altitude against low lands. Of course we could think also to a refugee of J2 in altitude, but we should think to an invasion happened more recently and in the whole region, from Europe to Caucasus. By whom?

A few years ago before discovery of R-L23 researchers referred to another classification called ht35.  It was found that within R1b the DYS393=12 was a very good proxy for this haplogroup and it still is for R-L23*.  To confirm Dieneke's idea that ht35 (now R-L23*) had a strong correlation to J2 in Europe, Vincent Vizzaccaro created maps for J2 and for DYS393=12.  These were on the unfortunately lost DNA-Forums; I don't know where his J2 map could be found but here is the DYS393=12 map: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dsGYkxd7z_E/Rb0OyyLLk5I/AAAAAAAAAB4/x0GGzLHjt6M/s1600-h/dys393%3D12_low.png  it is now part of his Italy DNA Project available at: http://italydna.blogspot.com/2007/01/r1b-in-italy.html

The point I'm trying to address here is that there does appear to be a correlation between J2 and R-L23* in southeast Europe and southern Italy.  Since I am totally lacking in J2 knowledge, I would be interested in ideas of when J2 entered these areas to get an idea of when this wave of R-L23* possibly entered these same areas.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 22, 2012, 01:04:22 PM
A few years ago before discovery of R-L23 researchers referred to another classification called ht35.  It was found that within R1b the DYS393=12 was a very good proxy for this haplogroup and it still is for R-L23*.  To confirm Dieneke's idea that ht35 (now R-L23*) had a strong correlation to J2 in Europe, Vincent Vizzaccaro created maps for J2 and for DYS393=12.  These were on the unfortunately lost DNA-Forums; I don't know where his J2 map could be found but here is the DYS393=12 map: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dsGYkxd7z_E/Rb0OyyLLk5I/AAAAAAAAAB4/x0GGzLHjt6M/s1600-h/dys393%3D12_low.png  it is now part of his Italy DNA Project available at: http://italydna.blogspot.com/2007/01/r1b-in-italy.html

The point I'm trying to address here is that there does appear to be a correlation between J2 and R-L23* in southeast Europe and southern Italy.  Since I am totally lacking in J2 knowledge, I would be interested in ideas of when J2 entered these areas to get an idea of when this wave of R-L23* possibly entered these same areas.
I am the theorist of the Italian Refugium, above all of hg. R1b1 and subclades, what should I say? That hg. R1b1 expanded from Italy, and make you note that this superimposition happens just in Italy and not elsewhere, then it could be due to two different waves of migration (one from West: hg. R, and one from South-East: hg. J2) and the fact of its presence in altitude more than in the low land due to the pastoral society that we know was present almost in the 1st Millennium BC. We know that the founders of Rome were above all shepherds and all these Italian peoples descend from the Apennine culture.
It was of course a surprise for me what we knew from the 1000 Genomes Project, that you know tested in Italy only Tuscans, and they resulted 50% of hg. R but a 30% of hg. J, above all J2. I don’t know if this is the percentage of Tuscan gene pool, but 30% is very surprising, and I demonstrated in a post of mine that there were present practically all the subclades, lacking only a few, understandable given the minimum number of the tested people. And for this I thought that Tuscany (and Italy) has had something to do also with the origin of hg. J beside hg. R.
The Matese Region, where it seems, by the map posted by Acekon, that there is the highest percentage of J2 in Italy, gets many interesting haplotypes (for what I know) of J1 and E, which we don’t know if from recent (Roman Empire) immigration or present from very ancient times, so that I consider it a very conservative region of Italy.
But I say this for saying that our analysis needs not a general and ideological discussion but the exam of single cases, what I am trying to do also with many posts of mine about hg. E in Italy, my mtDNA K1a1b1e and many other analyses I have done also on this forum.
Finally I’d want to say to Jarman that I am R-L23/L150+ and I am following my origin (which brings me to a link with some samples in Modena Province published by Ferri), but my haplotype is rarer in Italy than that of my cousin Giorgio Tognarelli (R-L23/L150+ he too) which finds at least 100 similar Western European haplotypes in FTDNA.
I think that General Theories should spring from many single cases resolved, and it is what I am doing from many years.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 22, 2012, 02:15:48 PM
What are the latest calculations of the age of M269 'all' and also L23*?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on July 22, 2012, 03:32:30 PM
Perhaps J2 in Etrusci came from Canaanites/Phoenicians in Levant?

Etruscans- 50% R1b and 30%J[J2?]-Elevated R1b and non Semitic language.
Canaan-Lebanon, and the western parts of Jordan and Syria
Pyrgi- ancient Etrusci port in Latium, central Italy

Elevated numbers of J2 in Levant, (Northwest Semitic, Canaan/Phoenician)
1] Lebanon       N951    29.4%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)
2] Syria    Syria    N554    20.8%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)
3] Jordan       N273    14.6%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)

Pyrgi Tablets, bilingual text  between Etrusci[R1b?] and Canaanites[J2?].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgi_Tablets




Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 22, 2012, 04:01:21 PM
What are the latest calculations of the age of M269 'all' and also L23*?

I don't know if we have representative enough sampling to have any better estimates.  I'm comfortable with the statement that FTDNA's chief statement, Dr. Michael Hammer, made a couple of years ago - R-M269 is about 4-8k ybp old and moved in through Europe East to West.

I can definitely see (from anectodotal looks at the data) that R1b itself (R-M343 could be quite a bit older than R-M269.

Just based on long haplotypes at FTDNA projects, I think R-L23xL11 is older in SW Asia/Caucasus than in Europe, but that is not based on representative sampling.   We surely do not have an adequate survey of the Steppes all the way around the Black Sea to the East into SE Europe. This could be the critical area to understand.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 22, 2012, 05:53:57 PM
What are the latest calculations of the age of M269 'all' and also L23*?

I don't know if we have representative enough sampling to have any better estimates.  I'm comfortable with the statement that FTDNA's chief statement, Dr. Michael Hammer, made a couple of years ago - R-M269 is about 4-8k ybp old and moved in through Europe East to West.

I can definitely see (from anectodotal looks at the data) that R1b itself (R-M343 could be quite a bit older than R-M269.

Just based on long haplotypes at FTDNA projects, I think R-L23xL11 is older in SW Asia/Caucasus than in Europe, but that is not based on representative sampling.   We surely do not have an adequate survey of the Steppes all the way around the Black Sea to the East into SE Europe. This could be the critical area to understand.

Is steppes R1b generally upstream of L51?  I assume it is but I am not sure I have seen statistics. 

BTW, after Dienekes comments on that new paper (which is free on the web) I was looking at the Wiki page for Iran.  It has an incredibly complex history including an extermination of most of the population by the Mongols at one stage.  I wouldnt be too confident that much can be based on the present population. 


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: ironroad41 on July 22, 2012, 06:51:46 PM
I agree with you again Alan.  How in the heck are we to interpret prior genetic composition  from todays alleles.  Look at the US today, how would we reconstruct history from the current distribution of Hgs????  I think that maliclavelli and rms2 are correct.  Its one case at a time and you focus on that which you think you most understand.  The crossroads of history are too complex. 


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 22, 2012, 11:10:13 PM
Perhaps J2 in Etrusci came from Canaanites/Phoenicians in Levant?
Etruscans- 50% R1b and 30%J[J2?]-Elevated R1b and non Semitic language.
Canaan-Lebanon, and the western parts of Jordan and Syria
Pyrgi- ancient Etrusci port in Latium, central Italy
Elevated numbers of J2 in Levant, (Northwest Semitic, Canaan/Phoenician)
1] Lebanon       N951    29.4%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)
2] Syria    Syria    N554    20.8%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)
3] Jordan       N273    14.6%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)
Pyrgi Tablets, bilingual text  between Etrusci[R1b?] and Canaanites[J2?].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgi_Tablets

Acekon, unfortunately what you say is just what everyone shouldn’t ever say. Without a knowledge of history (and all the other linked sciences) our analyses aren’t worth anything.
Etruscans hadn’t anything to do with Phoenicians nor with Asia Minor in historic times as I have explained infinite times also on this blog: I have broken in pieces, if you permit me to say so, all the papers, also of illustrious geneticists, who tried to demonstrate this link.
Etruscans and Phoenicians were allied against Greeks, the common enemy to control the sea, and the Pyrgi Tablets (two in Etruscan and one in Phoenician) are just a treatise of alliance. Phoenicians had colonies in Sicily and in Sardinia, but you should know that Phoenicians were a few and also in war used mercenaries and probably their genetic impact, in spite of what many write, was minimum, but they hadn’t anything to do with Etruria. They were allied also with Rome before its expansion to South Italy and the incorporation of the Greek towns made it become the first its enemy (“delenda Carthago”).
And that the genetic exchange was always in one way (from East to West) is another prejudice to discredit: probably the few R-M18 found in Lebanon came from Sardinia and not the other way around.
Probably the J2 found in Lebanon and in Etruria came from a third source, i.e Asia Minor, and Asia Minor wasn’t ever a Semitic land and it isn’t either now, in spite of its Semitic religion.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Jean M on July 23, 2012, 04:42:18 AM
What are the latest calculations of the age of M269 'all' and also L23*?

The calculations I have were made some time ago. They vary.

For M269:  
4-8000 ya (Vince Vizachero, cited by Michael Hammer in a lecture)
5-8000 ya (Arredi et al 2007)
6500-8500 ya (Tim Janzen) - That was the most recent I have, but not from 2012.

For L23
5700 y.a. +/- 2110 (V.V.)  
6500-8000 y. a. (T.J.)

R1b1a2a* (L23) is found in eastern Europe and the Caucasus, Turkey and Circum-Urals (Myres 2010)  

[edit] Corrected typos in dates!


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 23, 2012, 07:57:23 AM
The calculations I have were made some time ago. They vary.

For M269:  
4-800[0] ya (Vince Vizachero, cited by Michael Hammer in a lecture)
5-800[0] ya (Arredi et al 2007)
6500-8500 ya (Tim Janzen) - That was the most recent I have, but not from 2012.

For L23
5700 y.a. +/- 2110 (V.V.)  
6500-8000 y. a. (T.J.)

R1b1a2a* (L23) is found in eastern Europe and the Caucasus, Turkey and Circum-Urals (Myres 2010)  

If the R-L51 found in Valencia Region and Central Portugal (see the RRocca’s map of R-L51) arrived, as I think, with the agriculturalists from Italy (Zilhao and many others) 7500 years ago, then the ancestor R-L23 is older even than what T. Janzen says, which is already more than what was thought till a few time ago. And probably arrived in Iberia above all R-P312 in its first mutation. Then I’d add to the Janzen calculation a few hundreds or thousands of years more.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: ironroad41 on July 23, 2012, 08:03:31 AM
What are the latest calculations of the age of M269 'all' and also L23*?

The calculations I have were made some time ago. They vary.

For M269:  
4-800 ya (Vince Vizachero, cited by Michael Hammer in a lecture)
5-800 ya (Arredi et al 2007)
6500-8500 ya (Tim Janzen) - That was the most recent I have, but not from 2012.

For L23
5700 y.a. +/- 2110 (V.V.)  
6500-8000 y. a. (T.J.)

R1b1a2a* (L23) is found in eastern Europe and the Caucasus, Turkey and Circum-Urals (Myres 2010)  
To really appreciate the complexity of this question, read below and especially some of the comments:www.archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-07/1216954630.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Jean M on July 23, 2012, 08:26:49 AM
To really appreciate the complexity of this question ...

I think most readers here are well aware of the complexity of the question. What it boils down to is that you can argue away any date that you don't like. Playing around with statistics won't actually get us solid answers that logical persons will have to accept, whether they like it or not.

Ancient DNA holds out hope of eventually supplying solid links between dates and haplogroups. In the meantime, people who want to get at the truth are applying logical deduction to whatever data is available. So far the dates supplied from germline rates appear a better fit to  events over the last couple of millennia than those generated by the "evolutionary effective" rate.  

  


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on July 23, 2012, 08:59:57 AM
Perhaps J2 in Etrusci came from Canaanites/Phoenicians in Levant?
Etruscans- 50% R1b and 30%J[J2?]-Elevated R1b and non Semitic language.
Canaan-Lebanon, and the western parts of Jordan and Syria
Pyrgi- ancient Etrusci port in Latium, central Italy
Elevated numbers of J2 in Levant, (Northwest Semitic, Canaan/Phoenician)
1] Lebanon       N951    29.4%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)
2] Syria    Syria    N554    20.8%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)
3] Jordan       N273    14.6%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)
Pyrgi Tablets, bilingual text  between Etrusci[R1b?] and Canaanites[J2?].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgi_Tablets

Acekon, unfortunately what you say is just what everyone shouldn’t ever say. Without a knowledge of history (and all the other linked sciences) our analyses aren’t worth anything.
Etruscans hadn’t anything to do with Phoenicians nor with Asia Minor in historic times as I have explained infinite times also on this blog: I have broken in pieces, if you permit me to say so, all the papers, also of illustrious geneticists, who tried to demonstrate this link.
Etruscans and Phoenicians were allied against Greeks, the common enemy to control the sea, and the Pyrgi Tablets (two in Etruscan and one in Phoenician) are just a treatise of alliance. Phoenicians had colonies in Sicily and in Sardinia, but you should know that Phoenicians were a few and also in war used mercenaries and probably their genetic impact, in spite of what many write, was minimum, but they hadn’t anything to do with Etruria. They were allied also with Rome before its expansion to South Italy and the incorporation of the Greek towns made it become the first its enemy (“delenda Carthago”).
And that the genetic exchange was always in one way (from East to West) is another prejudice to discredit: probably the few R-M18 found in Lebanon came from Sardinia and not the other way around.
Probably the J2 found in Lebanon and in Etruria came from a third source, i.e Asia Minor, and Asia Minor wasn’t ever a Semitic land and it isn’t either now, in spite of its Semitic religion.

You have posted the elevated level of R1b in Etruria, where did there language originate.Would you say the  Phillistines are an example of the West to East colonization, like R-M18?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: ironroad41 on July 23, 2012, 09:12:42 AM
To really appreciate the complexity of this question ...

I think most readers here are well aware of the complexity of the question. What it boils down to is that you can argue away any date that you don't like. Playing around with statistics won't actually get us solid answers that logical persons will have to accept, whether they like it or not.

Ancient DNA holds out hope of eventually supplying solid links between dates and haplogroups. In the meantime, people who want to get at the truth are applying logical deduction to whatever data is available. So far the dates supplied from germline rates appear a better fit to  events over the last couple of millennia than those generated by the "evolutionary effective" rate.
Quote

What to you mean by "germline" rates?  Birth data?  mutation rates don't give us dates.  It requires a model to apply the birth data generated.  How many of the slower mutators have been observed in studies?

Variance was a proposed model of the mutational process:  A WAG if you will based on the data then available.  To my knowledge it hasn't been verified with data?   It has had some strong advocates (bullies if you will) who shouted other approaches down, and belittled the Zhivotovsky approach - but didn't show why it was wrong!

Most estimates of the last millenia are fairly well understood, its when you go back 5 to 10 to 15 and so on millenia, that the problems occur.  Diversity is not a good current measure of time; neither is the drunkards walk as modelled by variance.

I'm not necessarily a proponent of the "evolutionary rate" either.  I assumed I understand how he got there, but at best it is poorly explained in his papers.

I'm not sure about Klyosov either, but I do agree with his consensus that you have to use slow mutators, the rates for which, are the most unknown.

If you think I should swallow every utterance of Wolff and Fraser, than I think you should stick to history.  JMHO. 

  



Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 23, 2012, 10:11:13 AM
You have posted the elevated level of R1b in Etruria, where did there language originate.Would you say the  Phillistines are an example of the West to East colonization, like R-M18?

This is the percentage of the 1000 Genomes Project, but that Tuscany and the ancient zone peopled by Etruscans is high in hg. R is well known. Ferri’s paper on Modena Province found R at 67,7% and Garfagnana has till 75%.
About the origin of the Etruscan language we have spoken so much. I think that Etruscan is linked with Rhaetic and Camun and is born in Italy. The Lemnians were probably descendants of Etruscan from Italy.
Another myth to disprove is that of the Sea Peoples come from Aegean Sea only. Probably TWRS (Etruscans) SHKLSH (Siculs) and SHRDN (Sardinians) came from Italy.
PLSHT (Philistines) came probably from Aegean Sea (see the Greek Pelasgoi) and certainly took Aegean genes, we don’t know how many to-day.
R-M18, if born in Sardinia like a descendant of R-V88+, may have arrived in Lebanon during the Phoenician colonization of Sardinia, but don’t forget that Sardinians fought like mercenaries in all the Middle East at least from the 13th century BC.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 23, 2012, 07:08:50 PM
What are the latest calculations of the age of M269 'all' and also L23*?

The calculations I have were made some time ago. They vary.

For M269:  
4-800 ya (Vince Vizachero, cited by Michael Hammer in a lecture)
5-800 ya (Arredi et al 2007)
6500-8500 ya (Tim Janzen) - That was the most recent I have, but not from 2012.

For L23
5700 y.a. +/- 2110 (V.V.)  
6500-8000 y. a. (T.J.)

R1b1a2a* (L23) is found in eastern Europe and the Caucasus, Turkey and Circum-Urals (Myres 2010)  

Cheers.  So still centred on about 3500-3000BC with a maximum stretch back to 6000-6500BC.  So, it still looks like M269 either didnt exist or was somewhere well off the main developed faming area in the early Neolithic. Although its circular I suppose the suggested dates and the lack of earlier deep prolific branching in R1b are mutually supporting and do fit together.  Is it really possible for M269 to have been in Anatolia or northern Mesoptamia or even Iran before L23* when it is so rare?  I would have thought farming would have led to an earlier take off.  I have just come to think more and more that the high L23* zone is a destination or point of early growth on entering a farming area rather than an origin point.  I cant speak for the whole of the middle east but I do think that L23* is an intrusion into Anatolia.  Had R1b been in a very early farming area like eastern Anatolia prior to L23* then it would have had more variance and early branching.  So that for me places R1b as overwhelmingly in a non-farming context until rather late.  R1bs shape prior to L23 is all wrong for it to have been in Anatolia or even Iran prior to L23 or certainly prior to M269.  I no longer think Anatolia is an option as the hiding place of R1b until L23/the copper age.  What do you think of the possibility that it was within a non-Yamnaya far western steppes culture bordering farming prior to the expansion of Yamnaya?         


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Mike Walsh on July 23, 2012, 08:08:15 PM
What are the latest calculations of the age of M269 'all' and also L23*?

The calculations I have were made some time ago. They vary.

For M269:  
4-800 ya (Vince Vizachero, cited by Michael Hammer in a lecture)
5-800 ya (Arredi et al 2007)
6500-8500 ya (Tim Janzen) - That was the most recent I have, but not from 2012.

For L23
5700 y.a. +/- 2110 (V.V.)  
6500-8000 y. a. (T.J.)

R1b1a2a* (L23) is found in eastern Europe and the Caucasus, Turkey and Circum-Urals (Myres 2010)  

Cheers.  So still centred on about 3500-3000BC with a maximum stretch back to 6000-6500BC.  So, it still looks like M269 either didnt exist or was somewhere well off the main developed faming area in the early Neolithic. Although its circular I suppose the suggested dates and the lack of earlier deep prolific branching in R1b are mutually supporting and do fit together.  Is it really possible for M269 to have been in Anatolia or northern Mesoptamia or even Iran before L23* when it is so rare?  I would have thought farming would have led to an earlier take off.  I have just come to think more and more that the high L23* zone is a destination or point of early growth on entering a farming area rather than an origin point.  I cant speak for the whole of the middle east but I do think that L23* is an intrusion into Anatolia.  Had R1b been in a very early farming area like eastern Anatolia prior to L23* then it would have had more variance and early branching.  So that for me places R1b as overwhelmingly in a non-farming context until rather late.  R1bs shape prior to L23 is all wrong for it to have been in Anatolia or even Iran prior to L23 or certainly prior to M269.  I no longer think Anatolia is an option as the hiding place of R1b until L23/the copper age.  What do you think of the possibility that it was within a non-Yamnaya far western steppes culture bordering farming prior to the expansion of Yamnaya?        

I think Jean M means 4-8000 ybp, right not 4-800. The 4000-8000 ybp by Michael Hammers for M269 fits nicely with the L23 estimate od 5700 ybp by Vince Vizachero or 6500-8000 ybp by Tim Janzen and even earlier that I get for L11 using Nordtvedt's tool and long haplotypes.  I get 4000-5000 ybp for the L11* man who was U106/P312's MRCA.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R-L11_Subclades_Timeline.jpg

I think Tim J's estimates are a little long based on his propensity to use slow markers, but that's a whole can of worms so let's not go there.  

I'll just say that I think the U106-P312 interclade TMRCA is significantly younger than the L23 TMRCA. By that I mean about a 1000 years.

These estimates aren't much more precise than this and they really haven't changed that much. The longer haplotypes and more data are validating the earlier estimates, at least for R-M269.

Alan, I tend to agree with you that "R1bs shape prior to L23 is all wrong for it to have been in Anatolia or even Iran prior to L23 or certainly prior to M269.  I no longer think Anatolia is an option as the hiding place of R1b until L23/the copper age."  Remember Mt. Ida and the Mycenean Greek perspective is just that, Greek-centric. I don't think they talk about their pre-Greek cousins, the rest of the Indo-European pack, do they?

I don't know the terrain that well in Anatolia, but perhaps there are mountainous sections, particularly along the Caucasus, that could have been out of the way of the early Neolithic launches.  I just can't see how R1b was too close to the Levant and having missed the boat to be the seeds for the Cardial Wares and LBK expansions. R1b was slightly out of the way somewhere and even more strangely, skipped/skirted through to Egypt as R1b-V88 also.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: alan trowel hands. on July 23, 2012, 08:40:41 PM
What are the latest calculations of the age of M269 'all' and also L23*?

The calculations I have were made some time ago. They vary.

For M269:  
4-800 ya (Vince Vizachero, cited by Michael Hammer in a lecture)
5-800 ya (Arredi et al 2007)
6500-8500 ya (Tim Janzen) - That was the most recent I have, but not from 2012.

For L23
5700 y.a. +/- 2110 (V.V.)  
6500-8000 y. a. (T.J.)

R1b1a2a* (L23) is found in eastern Europe and the Caucasus, Turkey and Circum-Urals (Myres 2010)  

Cheers.  So still centred on about 3500-3000BC with a maximum stretch back to 6000-6500BC.  So, it still looks like M269 either didnt exist or was somewhere well off the main developed faming area in the early Neolithic. Although its circular I suppose the suggested dates and the lack of earlier deep prolific branching in R1b are mutually supporting and do fit together.  Is it really possible for M269 to have been in Anatolia or northern Mesoptamia or even Iran before L23* when it is so rare?  I would have thought farming would have led to an earlier take off.  I have just come to think more and more that the high L23* zone is a destination or point of early growth on entering a farming area rather than an origin point.  I cant speak for the whole of the middle east but I do think that L23* is an intrusion into Anatolia.  Had R1b been in a very early farming area like eastern Anatolia prior to L23* then it would have had more variance and early branching.  So that for me places R1b as overwhelmingly in a non-farming context until rather late.  R1bs shape prior to L23 is all wrong for it to have been in Anatolia or even Iran prior to L23 or certainly prior to M269.  I no longer think Anatolia is an option as the hiding place of R1b until L23/the copper age.  What do you think of the possibility that it was within a non-Yamnaya far western steppes culture bordering farming prior to the expansion of Yamnaya?        

I think Jean M means 4-8000 ybp, right not 4-800. The 4000-8000 ybp by Michael Hammers for M269 fits nicely with the L23 estimate od 5700 ybp by Vince Vizachero or 6500-8000 ybp by Tim Janzen and even earlier that I get for L11 using Nordtvedt's tool and long haplotypes.  I get 4000-5000 ybp for the L11* man who was U106/P312's MRCA.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R-L11_Subclades_Timeline.jpg

I think Tim J's estimates are a little long based on his propensity to use slow markers, but that's a whole can of worms so let's not go there.  

I'll just say that I think the U106-P312 interclade TMRCA is significantly younger than the L23 TMRCA. By that I mean about a 1000 years.

These estimates aren't much more precise than this and they really haven't changed that much. The longer haplotypes and more data are validating the earlier estimates, at least for R-M269.

Alan, I tend to agree with you that "R1bs shape prior to L23 is all wrong for it to have been in Anatolia or even Iran prior to L23 or certainly prior to M269.  I no longer think Anatolia is an option as the hiding place of R1b until L23/the copper age."  Remember Mt. Ida and the Mycenean Greek perspective is just that, Greek-centric. I don't think they talk about their pre-Greek cousins, the rest of the Indo-European pact, do they?

I don't know the terrain that well in Anatolia, but perhaps there are mountainous sections, particularly along the Caucasus, that could have been out of the way of the early Neolithic launches.  I just can't see how R1b was too close to the Levant and having missed the boat to be the seeds for the Cardial Wares and LBK expansions. R1b was slightly out of the way somewhere and even more strangely, skipped/skirted through to Egypt as R1b-V88 also.


I have been wondering if there was some corner of those areas that farming was not taken up or were so marginal or nomadic that they didnt receive the demographic boost of farming.  However, it just seems simpler to look to the steppes.  The distribution of M269 and derived clades in the east seems to strongly suggest its main zoone of prevallence in the middle east does tend to be around the east Anatolia, Caucuses, Armenia, NW Iran area which strongly suggests that that any route connecting the near east and areas to the north was not much futher east than than the  caucuses.  I notice that L23 does seem to rise among the IE groups of that area. Again I would repeat that as far as I am aware Anatolia and probably the other areas too were in the farming zone long before L23 existed.  I need to look a little further into the history of farming in the other parts of this area.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Jean M on July 24, 2012, 03:08:36 AM
I think Jean M means 4-8000 ybp, right not 4-800.

Yes. Sorry! Fixed.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on July 24, 2012, 04:07:33 AM
The calculations I have were made some time ago. They vary.

For M269:  
4-800[0] ya (Vince Vizachero, cited by Michael Hammer in a lecture)
5-800[0] ya (Arredi et al 2007)
6500-8500 ya (Tim Janzen) - That was the most recent I have, but not from 2012.

For L23
5700 y.a. +/- 2110 (V.V.)  
6500-8000 y. a. (T.J.)

R1b1a2a* (L23) is found in eastern Europe and the Caucasus, Turkey and Circum-Urals (Myres 2010)  

If the R-L51 found in Valencia Region and Central Portugal (see the RRocca’s map of R-L51) arrived, as I think, with the agriculturalists from Italy (Zilhao and many others) 7500 years ago, then the ancestor R-L23 is older even than what T. Janzen says, which is already more than what was thought till a few time ago. And probably arrived in Iberia above all R-P312 in its first mutation. Then I’d add to the Janzen calculation a few hundreds or thousands of years more.

I had already corrected it in my post.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 06, 2012, 01:38:26 PM
I think Jean M means 4-8000 ybp, right not 4-800.

Yes. Sorry! Fixed.

Don't you think there is a paradox in giving this estimate [4000-8000] 4000@50%, considering we have some hobbyists claiming how accurate mutation modals/clocks are?
That's a lot of wiggle room! That is a big enough hole to drive a Mack Truck through.


http://sovietrussia.org/big/src/12347989112024219.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKZg0exY_NE



Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 06, 2012, 02:52:30 PM
I think Jean M means 4-8000 ybp, right not 4-800.

Yes. Sorry! Fixed.

Don't you think there is a paradox in giving this estimate [4000-8000] 4000@50%, considering we have some hobbyists claiming how accurate mutation modals/clocks are?

No, I don't see the paradox. A four thousand year range is quite plausible. I haven't seen anyone claiming extreme precision with this stuff. Perhaps you've interpreted that way.  You realize that confidence ranges are given only as relates to the population surveyed and data, and the confidence ranges are exclusive of some of the mutation rate arguments (i.e. germ-line versus evolutionary.) You are aware of that, right?

To me, a 4k-8k range is quite instructive. It  fairly well eliminates some hypotheses like an expansion immediately following the LGM some 20K ybp, or even a Mesolithic expansion post the Colder Dryas event.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 06, 2012, 04:56:12 PM
I think Jean M means 4-8000 ybp, right not 4-800.

Yes. Sorry! Fixed.

Don't you think there is a paradox in giving this estimate [4000-8000] 4000@50%, considering we have some hobbyists claiming how accurate mutation modals/clocks are?

No, I don't see the paradox. A four thousand year range is quite plausible. I haven't seen anyone claiming extreme precision with this stuff. Perhaps you've interpreted that way.  You realize that confidence ranges are given only as relates to the population surveyed and data, and the confidence ranges are exclusive of some of the mutation rate arguments (i.e. germ-line versus evolutionary.) You are aware of that, right?

To me, a 4k-8k range is quite instructive. It  fairly well eliminates some hypotheses like an expansion immediately following the LGM some 20K ybp, or even a Mesolithic expansion post the Colder Dryas event.

 IMO, one misinterprited str back mutation, or newly discovered snp can change a lot in a 4000 year time frame, of R-M269, and Europe.

 A lot of human history can happen in 4000 years or roughly 4/5 the age of L584, right?

 For example in the context of R1b and L584 which you questioned, in relation to Europe.

In human migration , for example. Where did the Philistines come from, and who were these foreign invaders[L584]? When did they settle in Levant[L584] what language did they speak, Indo-European, Afro-Asiatic?

{Pleshet or Peleset, were a people who appeared in the southern coastal area of Canaan at the beginning of the Iron Age (circa 1175 BC), most probably from the Aegean region,}

How many of these foreigners actually converted to the Jewish faith, as in the case of Itai HaGiti, King David's[1040–970 BCE] Philistine army general? Not all were hostile, they apparently they chose sides. Eventually, while David was out battling a tribe called the Amalekites, Saul and Jonathan were killed on Mt. Gilboa in a fight with the Philistines.

[And David said to Itai: 'Go and pass over.' And Itai the Gittite passed over, and all his men, and all the little ones that were with him".]2 Samuel Chapter 15: "(19-22)


In the case of the Edomites[R1b?], and forced conversion.

HYRCANUS, JOHN (JOHANAN) I{134 - 104 BC, died 104 BC.} who forcibly converted the Edomites.

Or in the case of voluntary conversion as in the case of Queen Helena[sons L584?] who became a convert to Judaism about the year 30 CE. It is not often that a queen decides to become a Jewess, but such was the case with Queen Helena of Adiabene, the capital of a rich country which extended over a part of the former Assyrian empire.




Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 06, 2012, 05:27:09 PM
I think Jean M means 4-8000 ybp, right not 4-800.

Yes. Sorry! Fixed.

Don't you think there is a paradox in giving this estimate [4000-8000] 4000@50%, considering we have some hobbyists claiming how accurate mutation modals/clocks are?
That's a lot of wiggle room! That is a big enough hole to drive a Mack Truck through.


http://sovietrussia.org/big/src/12347989112024219.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKZg0exY_NE



I would add to what mike says that even the extreme outside of that range (6000BC for L23 and 6500BC for M269) is too young for them to have been among the early farmers in SW Asia.  Of course that is backed up by its lack of much branching and of course the fact it was not sweeped into Europe around then with the spread of farming.  Basically it seems to have been holed up outside (almost certainly to the north of) the early farming zone of the fertile cresent area somewhere.  However, there were probably a number of peripheral pockets outside the main farming zone on both sides of the Black and Caspian Seas.  Its a pretty specialist area to say the least.  The date range does not quite rule out the possibility that the secondary Neolithic spread of cattle pastoralism was involved but the downstream form and low variance of most R1b in Europe beyond the east and south-east just doesnt fit any very neat correlation with the spread of cattle dairying on a Europe-wide basis. I also dont think NW Anatolia (where dairying arose) as a likely spot for R1b to have been holed up.  Dienekes concluded that R1b was located east or north-east of G, the most common farming haplotype in ancient Neolthic DNA.  I think the origin of M269 has been narrowed down to an area somewhere between the mountains north of Mesopotamia in the south, the southern shore of the Black Sea in the north, the Caspian Sea in the east and western edge of the steppes in the north-west but I wouldnt bet anything on exactly where within that area.    


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 06, 2012, 06:27:11 PM
Don't you think there is a paradox in giving this estimate [4000-8000] 4000@50%, considering we have some hobbyists claiming how accurate mutation modals/clocks are?
That's a lot of wiggle room! That is a big enough hole to drive a Mack Truck through.
As with any estimator, there are two issues:  one is precision and one is accuracy.

With either STRs or SNPs, precision is strictly dependent on the sum of mutation rates of the markers involved.

With only 37 or 67 markers, the 95% confidence interval is indeed very wide on a TMRC estimate.  That lack of precision doesn't mean the estimate is not accurate.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 06, 2012, 08:15:30 PM
Don't you think there is a paradox in giving this estimate [4000-8000] 4000@50%, considering we have some hobbyists claiming how accurate mutation modals/clocks are?
That's a lot of wiggle room! That is a big enough hole to drive a Mack Truck through.
As with any estimator, there are two issues:  one is precision and one is accuracy.

With either STRs or SNPs, precision is strictly dependent on the sum of mutation rates of the markers involved.

With only 37 or 67 markers, the 95% confidence interval is indeed very wide on a TMRC estimate.  That lack of precision doesn't mean the estimate is not accurate.


You have very good knowledge, you know the outline of the y-tree,you also have perhaps 1000's STR's data[37/67/111] and SNP data on many populations including R1b, you have computers for calculating and simulating theoretical mutation rates, you have extremely bright mathematicians to create fool proof models. Everything I concede to you, everything I put in your favor, every tool I give to you.

Rhetorical question??

 With what degree of accuracy/confidence level[50%-95%] would you be able to give the 12/37/67/111 STR's of the two recent samples found in Kromsdorf Germany[(ca. 2,800–2,000 BC]?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22074/abstract


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Jdean on August 06, 2012, 08:20:33 PM
Don't you think there is a paradox in giving this estimate [4000-8000] 4000@50%, considering we have some hobbyists claiming how accurate mutation modals/clocks are?
That's a lot of wiggle room! That is a big enough hole to drive a Mack Truck through.
As with any estimator, there are two issues:  one is precision and one is accuracy.

With either STRs or SNPs, precision is strictly dependent on the sum of mutation rates of the markers involved.

With only 37 or 67 markers, the 95% confidence interval is indeed very wide on a TMRC estimate.  That lack of precision doesn't mean the estimate is not accurate.


You have very good knowledge, you know the outline of the y-tree,you also have perhaps 1000's STR's data[37/67/111] and SNP data on many populations including R1b, you have computers for calculating and simulating theoretical mutation rates, you have extremely bright mathematicians to create fool proof models. Everything I concede to you, everything I put in your favor, every tool I give to you.

Rhetorical question??

 With what degree of accuracy/confidence level[50%-95%] would you be able to give the 12/37/67/111 STR's of the two recent samples found in Kromsdorf Germany[(ca. 2,800–2,000 BC]?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22074/abstract

Does that data exist ?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 06, 2012, 09:19:21 PM
Don't you think there is a paradox in giving this estimate [4000-8000] 4000@50%, considering we have some hobbyists claiming how accurate mutation modals/clocks are?
That's a lot of wiggle room! That is a big enough hole to drive a Mack Truck through.
As with any estimator, there are two issues:  one is precision and one is accuracy.

With either STRs or SNPs, precision is strictly dependent on the sum of mutation rates of the markers involved.

With only 37 or 67 markers, the 95% confidence interval is indeed very wide on a TMRC estimate.  That lack of precision doesn't mean the estimate is not accurate.


You have very good knowledge, you know the outline of the y-tree,you also have perhaps 1000's STR's data[37/67/111] and SNP data on many populations including R1b, you have computers for calculating and simulating theoretical mutation rates, you have extremely bright mathematicians to create fool proof models. Everything I concede to you, everything I put in your favor, every tool I give to you.

Rhetorical question??

 With what degree of accuracy/confidence level[50%-95%] would you be able to give the 12/37/67/111 STR's of the two recent samples found in Kromsdorf Germany[(ca. 2,800–2,000 BC]?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22074/abstract

The linked paper does not include any STRs that I can find.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 06, 2012, 09:21:23 PM
With what degree of accuracy/confidence level[50%-95%] .  . . .
By the way, confidence intervals are measures of precision not accuracy.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 06, 2012, 10:52:59 PM
With what degree of accuracy/confidence level[50%-95%] .  . . .
By the way, confidence intervals are measures of precision not accuracy.

Everything I give to you; everything!

Will make it  more easy.

Again, only rhetorical.

You are specialist in [Ht-35]; in R1b you have the respect of many very intelligent ones,and it is now, 2012, current, not 4500 years in the past.

YSearch.org. user ID is 99SC2, my number. from, Silesia. I match first 12 from

1}Northern Germany
2}Denmark.

 Can you predict predict the last 25 sequence,from my match, in Northern Germany, without looking for it on YSearch?

Again only rhetorical.

If you do not like this example,  you choose any study of your liking, in progress, the information has not been released, and prove your confidence, without doubt?






Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 06, 2012, 11:07:50 PM
If you do not like this example,  you choose any study of your liking, in progress, the information has not been released, and prove your confidence, without doubt?
I'm sorry, but I can't figure out what you are asking?  Are you asking me to compute the genetic distance between two haplotypes I can't see?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 08, 2012, 08:36:52 AM
If you do not like this example,  you choose any study of your liking, in progress, the information has not been released, and prove your confidence, without doubt?
I'm sorry, but I can't figure out what you are asking?  Are you asking me to compute the genetic distance between two haplotypes I can't see?


Marker    DYS393/12_DYS390/24_    DYS19**/14_    DYS391/10_DYS385/11-14_

DYS426/12_DYS388/12_    DYS439/11_DYS389I/14_   DYS392/13_DYS389II***/31


Predicted 12 STR Marker Key, Kromsdorf Germany [ca. 2,800–2,000 BC]

Sample #1[  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  ]
Sample#2 [  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  ]

 Predicted 1-37 STR Marker Key, sample X, 2012. Northern Germany

[99SC2]  12_24_14_10_11_14_12_12_11_14_13_31
[    X   ]   12_24_14_10_11_14_12_12_11_14_13_31_ -_ - _ - _ - _ - _.....


STR notation key codes for map, instead of snp and letter codes

e.g/ R-M269=Marker DYS393/12_DYS390/24_ DYS19**/14......


http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png





Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 08, 2012, 09:41:14 AM
If you do not like this example,  you choose any study of your liking, in progress, the information has not been released, and prove your confidence, without doubt?
I'm sorry, but I can't figure out what you are asking?  Are you asking me to compute the genetic distance between two haplotypes I can't see?


Marker    DYS393/12_DYS390/24_    DYS19**/14_    DYS391/10_DYS385/11-14_

DYS426/12_DYS388/12_    DYS439/11_DYS389I/14_   DYS392/13_DYS389II***/31


Predicted 12 STR Marker Key, Kromsdorf Germany [ca. 2,800–2,000 BC]

Sample #1[  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  ]
Sample#2 [  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  ]

 Predicted 1-37 STR Marker Key, sample X, 2012. Northern Germany

[99SC2]  12_24_14_10_11_14_12_12_11_14_13_31
[    X   ]   12_24_14_10_11_14_12_12_11_14_13_31_ -_ - _ - _ - _ - _.....


STR notation key codes for map, instead of snp and letter codes

e.g/ R-M269=Marker DYS393/12_DYS390/24_ DYS19**/14......


http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png





What is the question?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 08, 2012, 10:45:57 AM
What is the question?

The questions are many:
1)   that these two haplotypes could be taken for close relatives, and are two people lived at 4/5000 years apart
2)   that they could be really linked, i.e. Acekon the descendant of the Kromsdorf man, and their values be these at 4/5000 years apart
3)   that they may coincide for convergent mutations, but then the times of these haplotypes are longer and R-L23 more ancient than you think
4)   that your map, founded upon all these assumptions, is worth anything
5)   etc etc.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 08, 2012, 11:54:05 AM
You, Acekon, have 13 differences with Neuberger (whom I put on ySearch from SMGF) out of 34 tested markers:

DYS458 14/16
DYS449 29/33
DYS464b 16/15
DYS464c 18/16
DYS464d 18/19
DYS460 11/10
H4 11/10
DYS456 15/16

What does mean this? That the markers which have the same values coincide from so long? Not, probably that they coincide for convergent mutations, then the distance between you and Neuberger is much more than the 13 differences.

You should reconstruct your previous values and those of Neuberger step by step in the past, and probably you would see that your MRCA is very far in the time.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 08, 2012, 12:13:48 PM


The questions are many:
1)   that these two haplotypes could be taken for close relatives, and are two people lived at 4/5000 years apart

No reasonable person could be surprised or baffled that a 12/12 match is possible.  Indeed, most of us have this kind of low-resolution match.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 08, 2012, 12:30:23 PM


The questions are many:
1)   that these two haplotypes could be taken for close relatives, and are two people lived at 4/5000 years apart

No reasonable person could be surprised or baffled that a 12/12 match is possible.  Indeed, most of us have this kind of low-resolution match.

This is why we kindly ask for your 37 STR key code for your map.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 08, 2012, 12:40:10 PM
You, Acekon, have 13 differences with Neuberger (whom I put on ySearch from SMGF) out of 34 tested markers:

DYS458 14/16
DYS449 29/33
DYS464b 16/15
DYS464c 18/16
DYS464d 18/19
DYS460 11/10
H4 11/10
DYS456 15/16

What does mean this? That the markers which have the same values coincide from so long? Not, probably that they coincide for convergent mutations, then the distance between you and Neuberger is much more than the 13 differences.

You should reconstruct your previous values and those of Neuberger step by step in the past, and probably you would see that your MRCA is very far in the time.


Thank you Maliclavelli. But it is Callsen and Mueller[not listed] that I match at 12 "low" resolution markers[me@L150/Ht-35 project_ Callsen@R1b1a2a1a1b4 ]. At high resolution Callsen are very far apart [15/16].So who is Kormsdorf sample closer eg. [U98VT]? We do not know, perhaps if V.V. gives us the STR key codes for his map it might help?Or a 37 STR guesstimate of Kormsdorf  sample #1 & #2? Is this unreasonable?
   
   
FTDNA Tip note Y-DNA37  Peter Callsen, b. 1776 and d. 1845 R1b1a2a1a1b4
L21    2/29/2012.
   


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 08, 2012, 01:14:40 PM
FTDNA Tip note Y-DNA37  Peter Callsen, b. 1776 and d. 1845 R1b1a2a1a1b4
L21    2/29/2012.


But you cannot compare yourself with Callsen, who is R-L21, whereas Neuberger is certainly R-L150 (like you and me): he has DYS461=11. Then you can compare with him, but the match on 12 markers is illusory, like would be illusory if Kromsdorf man would have the same 12 values: we know he lived 5800 years ago, but it may happen. We have seen that the ancient DNA of 7000 years ago gets almost the same values of to-day on the first 12 markers, but because one of my rules is that there is a "convergence to the modal as time passes", except when some mutations went for the tangent, what has happened between you and Neuberger: some values mutate around the modal, others go for the tangent.
But what you should pay attention, I think, is DYS464, which maintains a configuration also for thousands of years. One could think that, if we start from a "modal" 14 15 16 18, you have had only a mutation (DYS464d from 18 to 19), what has happened in the East European R-L150, whereas we Western ones have had DYS464d from 18 to 17: my 14 14 16 17 would presuppose also another mutation in DYS464b from 15 to 14. But ptobably the thing isn't linear. Also these markers have had mutations around the modal or for the tangent, and to reconstruct the passages would need, as I have said, to go step by step.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: OConnor on August 08, 2012, 01:33:06 PM
how uncommon is 393=12 in western European R1b subclades ?

I have been cursed with this 393=12 while being L21/DF13+

Ido have one 36/37 match with a Murphy.
I think I may be connected to the Murphy's
listed in the Murphy project. listed as "Haplotype C"
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MURPHY%20DNA-All%20Spellings/default.aspx?section=yresults

393=12 and 464=15 15 16 16.
How many common str's does it take to be considered a cluster?



Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 08, 2012, 01:41:06 PM
This is why we kindly ask for your 37 STR key code for your map.
I don't know what you mean by "key code".

The map is an illustration of the probable expansion path of R-M343.  There is no "code".


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 08, 2012, 01:46:35 PM
393=12 and 464=15 15 16 16.
How many common str's does it take to be considered a cluster?
For what I have said before I think that DYS393=12 and DYS464= 15 15 16 16 are a clade within R-L21.
I'll study your case.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 08, 2012, 01:50:17 PM
how uncommon is 393=12 in western European R1b subclades ?

I have been cursed with this 393=12 while being L21/DF13+

Ido have one 36/37 match with a Murphy.
I think I may be connected to the Murphy's
listed in the Murphy project. listed as "Haplotype C"
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MURPHY%20DNA-All%20Spellings/default.aspx?section=yresults

393=12 and 464=15 15 16 16.
How many common str's does it take to be considered a cluster?



Is it by co-incidence Gilpin and Strong from around Connaught, also have the 393-12 ht-35 variant? What about U98VT? It also has a 12, does Kromsdorf sample have a 12 or 13?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 08, 2012, 01:58:36 PM
This is why we kindly ask for your 37 STR key code for your map.
I don't know what you mean by "key code".

The map is an illustration of the probable expansion path of R-M343.  There is no "code".

Signature.

 When you put R-M269  and other branches of R,[combination of letters and snp's] on your map you can translate that into a common 37 STR signature carried by most?

The "Mean Average" signature of each label. For example would you use 393-12 or 393-13 for the R-M269 label on your map, and so on for 37 markers, instead of using very broad snp's or letters.



Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: seamasmor on August 08, 2012, 02:36:00 PM

 I am 393-12 and 464 15-15-18-18 and L21-DF21-DF5.

My ysearch number is 7D6QQ.

What does this mean in terms of this thread?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 08, 2012, 03:47:51 PM
Selbie, I have already spoken about your haoplotype. Your DYS464= 15 15 18 18 should be explained starting by the modal of R-L21, which seemed to be 15 15 17 17. Then you would have had DYS464c from 17 to 18 and also DYS464d from 17 to 18, but you know that I doubt of the modal. 15 15 18 18 is found also in other haplotypes/haplogroups, but evidently it has a different meaning starting they from a different “modal”.
Anyway your haplotype seems particular amongst the R-L21 and also your DYS464 could derive from a different, more ancient modal as to the main R-L21 haplotypes.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 08, 2012, 04:39:41 PM
393=12 and 464=15 15 16 16.
How many common str's does it take to be considered a cluster?
For what I have said before I think that DYS393=12 and DYS464= 15 15 16 16 are a clade within R-L21.
I'll study your case.
O’Connor, not only I think that you are of the clade of the Murphys, but also that with 103639 you have a very close relatedness, having out of 37 markers only 1 mutation in DYS576, MR of 0,011087, i.e very high.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: OConnor on August 08, 2012, 06:01:24 PM
I should have added that a second cousin on mine is also 36/37 with me, and listed on y-search 67K7J.(kit 72257) (We are separated by 3 generations)
Thank-you for taking some time and having a look Maliclavelli.





Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 08, 2012, 06:41:03 PM

 When you put R-M269  and other branches of R,[combination of letters and snp's] on your map you can translate that into a common 37 STR signature carried by most?
Yes, I suppose you could compute a modal haplotype for the extant members of each clade on the map.  But I don't think it would serve any relevant purpose to do so.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 08, 2012, 06:44:55 PM
how uncommon is 393=12 in western European R1b subclades ?
Not very.  About 5-6% of western European R1b (e.g. R-U106 and R-P312) has DYS393=12.

http://www.kerchner.com/r1bproject/histograms/pages/000D393.htm (http://www.kerchner.com/r1bproject/histograms/pages/000D393.htm)


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 08, 2012, 09:22:32 PM
how uncommon is 393=12 in western European R1b subclades ?
Not very.  About 5-6% of western European R1b (e.g. R-U106 and R-P312) has DYS393=12.

But you should ask:
1)   how many R-L21 are DYS393= 12?
2)    “                  “          DYS391= 10?
3)     “                  “         DYS464= 15 15 16 16?
4)     “                   “        H4= 10?
5)     “                 “          from DYS607 to CDYb 15 18 17 38 38?

The percentage from 5/6% would fall to “a few people of the same descent”.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 08, 2012, 09:33:46 PM
The proof may be done on SMGF. Ask how many people are in the database with
DYS393=12
DYS391=10
DYS464= 15 15 16 16
H4 =10
and add 3 middle mutating markers:
DYS439=12
DYS458=18
DYS449=29.

How many? 0.



Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: OConnor on August 08, 2012, 09:36:50 PM
I believe most of the Murphy 393-12, 464=15 15 16 16 have 391=11

which made me wonder how concrete 391 is..when we think 10 or 11 as a pillar result?

"Haplotype C"
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MURPHY%20DNA-All%20Spellings/default.aspx?section=yresults


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 08, 2012, 09:46:00 PM
But DYS391 is a marker I have always said that mutates around the modal: from 11 to 10 and from 10 to 11, many times. For this is a markers whose mutations are hidden. But with whom you find the same value it demonstrates I think a close relatedness, united with all the other values.

But you could do a proof: I think that a Relative Finder (23andMe)  between you and this Murphy would demonstate a relatedness.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 08, 2012, 09:49:18 PM
And of course an upgrade to 111 could take away any doubt.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: OConnor on August 08, 2012, 09:55:49 PM
I am waiting my 111 results due in September :)

Thank-you so much for your opinion. I think the 23andme thing is a very good option. I should invest in that venture.

I also wondered if perhaps "Walk the Y"?

Thanks again.

(Edit:) I should get this Murphy to 111 str's as well)


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 08, 2012, 10:24:54 PM
how uncommon is 393=12 in western European R1b subclades ?
Not very.  About 5-6% of western European R1b (e.g. R-U106 and R-P312) has DYS393=12.

But you should ask:
1)   how many R-L21 are DYS393= 12?
2)    “                  “          DYS391= 10?
3)     “                  “         DYS464= 15 15 16 16?
4)     “                   “        H4= 10?
5)     “                 “          from DYS607 to CDYb 15 18 17 38 38?

The percentage from 5/6% would fall to “a few people of the same descent”.
If you want to know the frequency of each of these or any combination of these within L21 you can just download this spreadsheet and use the Excel custom autofiltering function on the column headings. The totals are at the bottom per each allele.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 09, 2012, 11:01:38 AM

 When you put R-M269  and other branches of R,[combination of letters and snp's] on your map you can translate that into a common 37 STR signature carried by most?
Yes, I suppose you could compute a modal haplotype for the extant members of each clade on the map.  But I don't think it would serve any relevant purpose to do so.


Many poster's here love str's and think they trump snp,s, I thought you might have been one of them. So was interested that everyone converses in the same genetic language, to simplify the matter.

Could you provide a little more detail on your map[rough back of envelope type of data]  the top of your head . Terminal snp/str-393/approximate age, of node and or split.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png

Also with respect to placement of R1a compared to R1b1. Is the str analysis and conclusion logical, by Gunjan Sharma et al. ?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0032546

 


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 09, 2012, 11:48:09 AM
Many poster's here love str's and think they trump snp,s, I thought you might have been one of them. So was interested that everyone converses in the same genetic language, to simplify the matter.

I like STRs and SNPs both: I'm happy to use whatever tool is appropriate for the job at hand.

Could you provide a little more detail on your map[rough back of envelope type of data]  the top of your head . Terminal snp/str-393/approximate age, of node and or split.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png

The map is an illustration of the probable expansion path of R and R1b lineages.  I'd say the two primary lines of evidence in placing the clades on the map were STR variance and distribution of subclades.

For instance, I observed that R-V88 tends to appear in a region south of the region in which R-L389 appears.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R1b1Distribution.png

That doesn't necessarily mean that R-V88 orginated in Arabia, but does suggest that R-V88 was in a population that expanded in that direction.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 09, 2012, 11:53:36 AM
Many poster's here love str's and think they trump snp,s, I thought you might have been one of them. So was interested that everyone converses in the same genetic language, to simplify the matter.

I like STRs and SNPs both: I'm happy to use whatever tool is appropriate for the job at hand.

Could you provide a little more detail on your map[rough back of envelope type of data]  the top of your head . Terminal snp/str-393/approximate age, of node and or split.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png

The map is an illustration of the probable expansion path of R and R1b lineages.  I'd say the two primary lines of evidence in placing the clades on the map were STR variance and distribution of subclades.

For instance, I observed that R-V88 tends to appear in a region south of the region in which R-L389 appears.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R1b1Distribution.png

That doesn't necessarily mean that R-V88 orginated in Arabia, but does suggest that R-V88 was in a population that expanded in that direction.

Website is not to strong, blank map?


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: vineviz on August 09, 2012, 12:15:05 PM
The map is in .PNG format.  Perhaps the problem is your browser?  The map is visible to me in Firefox and Safari.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R1b1Distribution.png

VV


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: acekon on August 09, 2012, 12:29:18 PM
^^ Working now.

 Lets start from R and it's placement on the map. Snp variance or Str variance?
[UTY2, P224, P227, P229, P232, P280, P285, S4, S9]


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: alan trowel hands. on August 10, 2012, 09:09:01 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts on Dienekes calculation now that he realised they need halved?  They seem a little young to me.  For instance that appears to place U106 at only 3500 years old which is 500-1000 years younger than some other calculations I recall based on STR interclades.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 10, 2012, 09:24:43 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts on Dienekes calculation now that he realised they need halved?  They seem a little young to me.  For instance that appears to place U106 at only 3500 years old which is 500-1000 years younger than some other calculations I recall based on STR interclades.

Argiedude:
“Looking at the original experiment [2] where I did divide with 2 twice, it seems that there are many more variant sites per pair of chromosomes; this is why the "Root" estimates for the two experiments end up similar”.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Maliclavelli on August 10, 2012, 09:27:12 AM
In Pisan dialect we say:

Poggi e bue fan pari.


Title: Re: About the origin of hg. R again
Post by: Mike Walsh on August 13, 2012, 01:40:39 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts on Dienekes calculation now that he realised they need halved?  They seem a little young to me.  For instance that appears to place U106 at only 3500 years old which is 500-1000 years younger than some other calculations I recall based on STR interclades.

I'm not taking any firm positions on these dates, but I'll tell you what's been calculated. Using Nordtvedt's tool with 67 markers I had the interclade age for P312 & U106 at 4500 ybp so that should be a maximum (not accounting for error ranges.) The tool calculated U106's coalescence age as 3400 ybp.

Perhaps, Mark Jost will chime in, but he just ran some TMRCAs with 111 markers and the lastest version of Nordtvedt's tool and I think his ages were slightly younger than what I just displayed. One of the other bloggers complained about it being too young, but all of this  seems to line up so...